Encore: S04 Ep. 08 - Grace and Finn’s Escalating Arguments

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human Your morning rituals can set the trajectory for your day. Optimize your morning routine and feel your mindset with the G2 Boost collection from pilot. Powered by the science of color, these premium gel pens feature curated colors designed to power your day. Blue for productivity, purple for creativity, and pink for optimism. Go grab your pack of G2 Boost today at Walmart. G2 Boost, Hughes to power you. You gave everything you could give and now it's time to take the next step. Hey, it's Emily Tish Sussman and this season on She Pivots, the podcast where women share bold career moves and personal turning points. I sit down with culture shifting women who share their pivots like Elizabeth Smart. I still feel that dry that I can still make a difference, so I'm gonna keep going. And feminist legend, Gloria Steinem. All of us were trying to express women's real lives. Listen to She Pivots on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. On Big Lives, we take a single cultural icon. People like Jane Fonda, George Michael, Little Richard. And we pull apart the story behind the image, discovering forgotten interviews that changed exactly how we see these giants of our culture. We're here for the messy, the brilliant, the human version of our heroes. I'm Immanuel Jochi. I'm Kai Wright. And this is Big Lives. Listen to Big Lives on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. In February of 2024, celebrated illustrator and children's book author Patre Mathers and her husband Michael mailed letters to dozens of friends and family members to let them know they had died by suicide. Dear Hunnies, this is goodbye. By the time you get the shalliter of both Petra and I will be dead. Next stop, Wonderland. Why did they do it? And what did it do to the people they left behind? Listen to death of an artist on the iHeart Radio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone and I write the Dear Therapist Advice column for the Atlantic. And I'm Guy Winch. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid and I write the Dear Guy Advice column for Ted. And this is Dear Therapists. Each week we invite you into a real session where we help people confront the problems in their lives and then give them actionable advice and have them report back to let us know what happened when they did what we suggested. So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week, a young married couple wants to learn how to stop their arguments from escalating into destructive screaming matches. My sister moved in with us and there's been rules that need to be set in place for the household. We've had certain disagreements and it always ends with arguments to where we don't even want to talk to each other anymore. First, a quick note. Dear Therapists is for informational purposes only. It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is not a substitute for professional health care advice. Diagnosis or treatment. By submitting a letter you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in part or in full and we may edit it for length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear, all names have been changed for the privacy of our guests. Hey Guy. Hi Laurie. What do we have in our mailbox today? Today we have a letter from a woman who wants to know how she and her fiance can learn to not turn every discussion into a screaming match and we're actually going to have both of them on to talk about that and here's the letter. Dear Therapists. I am in a tenure relationship with my now fiance Finn. We have grown up together and he's my best friend. I absolutely love him. He is a police officer and his line of work has trained him not to show emotions. I work as a therapist. Great combination. I know. Recently his sister moved in with us and that has really pushed us to argue about household rules. Sometimes I feel so alone and I've expressed this to him. He is receptive but I worry that the stressors we face now are minimal compared to the ones that we may face later on down the line when we get married and have children. We have gone through so much change over the last 10 years but I feel like we argue like our teenage version of ourselves. Sometimes we say things that really hurt each other and we don't communicate well. I really want us to fight better because I know we feel like we are both losing sometimes. I would love your support in helping us to connect and identify unhealthy communication patterns. We'd like to learn how to have a discussion without turning it into a screaming match. Thank you. Grace. Grace and Finn have been together since they were young and it sounds like they might have grown and evolved but their communication together has not. So they really do need to learn very different habits than habits they've already established over 10 years and I'm very glad we have both of them here because it really does require to change a communication style. And what I like to about this letter is that she's not saying the problem is with my partner. A lot of times we get these letters and people say my partner does this, how do I get them to change? And what she's saying is we both do this and we both need to learn how to change. So let's go meet them and see how we can help. You're listening to Dear Therapist for My Heart Radio. We'll be back after a short break. Your morning rituals can set the trajectory for your day. Optimize your morning routine and feel your mindset with a G2 boost collection from pilots. Powered by the science of color these premium gel pens feature curated colors designed to power your day blue for productivity purple for creativity and pink for optimism. Go grab your pack of G2 boost today Walmart G2 boost Hughes to power you. When I was 14 years old I was kidnapped and health captive for nine months. I survived and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart and these are the survivor files. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying shut up. Don't say anything. Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up without a doubt he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. Their stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the survivor files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. On the new podcast Solita we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I choose option B. I'm Julie Piñero and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone I kept meeting people and they were like you smiled at us not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip. I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Ace Davenport and Sean Clements. We host the podcast Hollywood handbook on the big money players network. Our show is extremely accessible to first time listeners each week we talk to someone in show business aka the biz and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. Everyone has a good time and no one gets mad at their publicists for letting them do our show. We've had a lot of great guests like Sarah Sherman. That's great. Can you help me? Can you help me shape this? How about we flip it on his head? How about we flip this around? What is the surprise one man who actually you think is the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird. Adam Scott. This entire time you've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show. I would never let go of that. I would never set expectations for something like that. If the universe allows for something like that to happen. I am open to it. I'm always going to accept. You know, Danny McBride, fine. Yeah, it's all this fragile masculinity exuding. I could smell it walking on the hallway to be honest with you. I was like, is that what we need? No, it's fragile masculinity. Ben still or no? I think there's a lot of times out of context, people don't get it. Or even know what a circle is. You know what I mean? Like you're like, oh, it's so stupid. Everyone's so dumb and fake. Right. Fake and also not interested or just like, oh, I've got my life. I don't care about your life. And a lot of other big shots that wouldn't be where they are without us. Oh, and by the way, Will Ferrell told us personally he loves the show and he wants to be a guest on every episode. But he's just so busy. Listen to Hollywood Handbook on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. - And I'm Guy Winch. And this is Deer Therapists. - So hi Grace, hi Finn. - Thanks for coming on the show. - Thanks for having us. - Yes, thank you so much for having us. - You're very welcome. We'd love to hear a little bit about how you guys got together when and just how the relationship has been over the past 10 years. - We started dating in high school. So we've been together since we were teenagers and there's just been a lot that has happened throughout the last 10 years. Like surviving like long distance while I was in college. Finn is from out of state. And so he has family over there and so just having to juggle like visiting them too. We've had a lot of successes in our careers and then also like in our personal lives of getting a house and getting engaged. And so I think it's been really good, but there's also been like really difficult. - Moments too. - Tell us about the difficult moments. - There's just a lot of things that happened growing up together just having to figure out how to be in a relationship and like stay in one but also being able to find like our own identities. And now we have a house and Finn sister recently moved in and that's just been a little bit difficult because we haven't lived together for a terribly long time. I think it's been maybe a year to know about two years now. - Two years, so eight of those years that were together, we didn't live together. It's just been kind of difficult navigating that different dynamic of having somebody else there. - You were tearing up when you talked about that you went through some hard things. Could you give us an example of what some of those hard things were and what makes you feel emotional when you think about them? - I think just when me and Finn were younger, I was off in college and there was just a lot of things that I did that I wasn't like super proud of flying a lot. There was just I think a lot of pain caused because of that. And so even though there had been a lot of really good and beautiful moments, there's also been a lot of difficult ones as well, including that period of time. - Can you tell us what the lies were about and how the two of you got through that? - Sure, we were young teenagers and as most users do, we experiment with most commonly like marijuana. And I was heavily against drinking alcohol, smoking. And some of the difficult things that we went through were, I guess Grace wanted to experiment a little more with that. And when I would ask her questions about it, she would lie to me and say that she was home when in reality she was with friends smoking. Stuff like that that created trust issues between us. And then when she went off to college a couple hours away, I just feel like that there were still trust issues which created more issues within our relationship and it just made it difficult as we got older. - It's interesting because in your letter, Grace, you said that the two of you don't know how to disagree without something turning into a screaming match. And I think that this is an example early on where instead of something turning into a screaming match, you disagreed about something and you both kind of avoided it. I don't want to talk to you about the fact that I want to do something different. So I'm going to lie so that we don't have to have some kind of confrontation. - Yeah, I think that happened and still sometimes does happen. I've tried to really encourage Finn and even myself to have really difficult conversations because avoiding them hasn't helped us. But sometimes it's really difficult because when we get into arguments, I feel like I'm usually the one having to bring them up and sometimes I just get tired of it. 'Cause I like want Finn to bring up the things that he is feeling and experiencing but that doesn't always happen. - When these lies were happening, how did you deal with the fact that the lies were discovered and then how did the two of you repair that? - So as far as discovering it, I feel like I would just ask a lot of questions and the answers wouldn't add up to me. So I'd ask further questions. Like where are you here? Let me face time view and I'd get a response. It's like, well, I'm in my room. I'm falling asleep, it's dark. I would say, well, turn on the light. It was just questions like that that would give me the answers to tell me that I was being lied to and in reference to how we got through it. I feel like maybe communication. I remember talking about it. Apologies, tears. As I'm being told, it's not gonna happen again. - Did you believe that? That it wouldn't happen again? - I did. This was towards the end of high school. - Yes, and then when she went to college, we were about a two and a half hour drive away from each other. And what I'm saying is incidents like those just didn't make it easier being along this relationship. - Grace mentioned that she brings up difficult conversations. She wishes you would do more of that. In terms of the trust and repairing that rupture from late high school and the colleges, do you feel that's repaired on your end? And if not, do you bring it up as something to discuss and figure out? - I don't bring that topic up per se. I feel like we do trust each other. I feel like that was our high school selves that made those mistakes. And I know that people grow and mature. They become different people as they get older. We haven't had any recent issues when it comes to lying. So I feel like in reference to me trusting Grace that's gotten a lot better. You know, patterns get set up really early in a relationship. And the two of you got together at a certain time in life when you're still figuring out who you are, you're still developing emotionally. You haven't had a lot of experience in relationships because you guys were a primary relationship very early on. And so I'm thinking about not only the lies, but this question of what do you do when you fundamentally disagree about something? How do you tolerate difference in the relationship? You Finn said, "I'm not okay with smoking and drinking." And Grace thought, "This is the time that I want to experiment with that." And I'm sure over the course of the last 10 years, you've had other fundamental disagreements about things because two different people will have different ideas at times. So how do the two of you deal with those times when you have different ideas about things? You're both looking at each other and smiling. And maybe you can tell us about one more recent example of a disagreement and how you've dealt well or not with it. Right, I feel like, for example, when Grace mentioned that my sister moved in with us and there's been rules that need to be set in place for the household, we've had certain disagreements and it always just ends with just arguments where we don't even want to talk to each other anymore. And to be clear with both of you, when we talk to couples, couples never argue about world peace. They argue about the towel on the floor, the sock into this. So we know it's going to sound trivial. That's what couples argue about. But give us an example of how rules that you argue about. The most recent one was I've really struggled with food and body and people's bodies. And something that's been really difficult is the Finn sister used to make a lot of comments about people's bodies and it was really difficult because sometimes sin me and his sister would be home and she would make these comments but Finn wouldn't hear them. And I think just growing up, that was always something that was in my household. So I just didn't want it in my house. And so it was something that I had talked to her about and something that she said she was going to work on. But then it continued to happen. And I know that when you set a boundary, sometimes it needs to be restated but I just felt really unheard. That's what happens a lot. When we disagree, I just feel very unheard. And so that time we had like a really bad argument because I had told him that she had made a comment and I would have really appreciate if he would say something when those things would come up as well, not just me. And then something that made me really upset was he had said that she had gone to him and whispered in his ear that she had lost weight. And even though I had told him that something that I don't want to be discussed here, I could just go really upset because why didn't you say something about like stopping it and he did it. And I don't know that was just a really hard argument. I had left the house that night just because I didn't want to like talk about it. - Finn, can you tell us your side of that please? - Sure, so she's always struggled with her weight. And if somebody makes any negative comments towards anybody's body type, she does not like it, which is understandable. I guess I wasn't aware that she had this conversation with my sister about, hey, in our household, we're not gonna speak about body types, body weight, anything like that. So my sister won, they came up to me and said, I've lost some weight, which was her goal. And I said, oh, hey, good for you. You know, she's telling me about one of her accomplishments. So I told her, good job. And later on Grace and I had this conversation about hey, we don't want these conversations being brought up in the household So I I brought it to her attention. I said well, hey, my sister recently made this comment to me and I Told her congratulations because she was telling me of one of her accomplishments And I just started this massive argument that why did I say congratulations? Why did I put a stop to it that she felt like I was going against her? I felt like whoa, I didn't have any bad intentions. My sister came up to me to tell me something. I said I'm just Tell her good for you for your accomplishments When you had that disagreement as teenagers Grace decided to do what she wanted to do and just not tell you and You're the opposite Finn your sister said that to you without grace there So technically you didn't have to tell Grace that your sister had that private conversation with you But you did and then it turned out that there was a very negative consequence to telling the truth If Grace back then had told you the truth, there probably would have been a very negative consequence too Actually, I'm in the backyard smoking with my friends. You would have gotten really upset So So you're smiling so I just want to point out that pattern that It's kind of like if you don't tell the truth you create a trust issue, and if you do tell the truth you get into a huge argument So there's no good solution here in the current way that the two of you communicate and My question would be well you arguing the same points 20 times which is how arguments tend to escalate you just make the same point again and louder or with a more of an exclamation point I just want to get a sense of how that escalated into you not sleeping in the house I was just working really hard to set boundaries with his sister about what was Allowed and not allowed in the house. I just wanted Finn to say hey Grace has already set that boundary But the fact that he didn't just made me feel like he didn't respect the boundaries that I was trying to set Finn was saying that he didn't think that violated the boundary because it was said in confidence Maybe he shouldn't have conveyed that to you, but that was just something between He and a sister they could have discussed it on a walk or something not in the house The boundary is really about her saying things in front of you That's where the disagreement is on the principle between the two of you in this case Did you talk about that principle? I feel like she just doesn't want any conversations about weight or body types And what I was trying to explain to her was I didn't feel right telling my sister Hey, I know you're coming up to me. You're confining in me with your accomplishments about losing weight Which was your goal? And I didn't want to answer you to say well stop stop. I don't want to hear anything We're not having these conversations here in this household It's not allowed because if that was me and I was trying to reach a goal And I finally told somebody like hey, this is my goal and I've accomplished it I would feel really bad if somebody told me don't don't tell me about that Grace just to be clear is your request? That these conversations don't happen in front of you or that these conversations never happen at all I guess just not in front of me, but it makes it really difficult to hear That Finn I guess was praising weight loss specifically with his sister because she had told me I'm skipping meals I'm not eating so it wasn't accomplished in like a very Healthy manner and in my head it was like perpetuated eating disorder But he didn't have that information Finn. What was your purpose in telling Grace that you had had that private conversation with your sister? I believe the topic had came up Somehow that night and I told her well, I just want to tell you just so it doesn't come up later on She says well, why don't you tell me and then it just blew up like if I had just Completely betray her. You know what's interesting about this specific argument and I'm not sure this one's typical But your sister Finn actually by coming to you when Grace isn't in the room whispering it just in case she's in the airshort She's actually abiding by the boundaries Grace that you said because she did interpret them to me in not in front of you She was trying to abide by those boundaries by having it as a private conversation With her brother and I just want that to be there as well because Grace your feeling is I don't feel heard and I don't feel seen but in this case She was actually doing it because she heard you and that's why it was in a whisper Even when you want in a room. Do you see that? Yeah, I do. I'm wondering if the two of you would try a little experiment right now Could you Have that conversation again right now just so we can hear what it sounds like Finn if you could start at the point in the conversation where you Told Grace that this had happened with your sister. Don't try to recreate what actually happened We want to hear you just right now. How would it sound if you had the conversation right now? So with what we're recently talking about I just want to let you know that my sister did come up to me She told me that she had lost some weight And she whispered it to me and she was excited about her goal. So I told her good job. Congratulations. I just thought I'd let you know Thank you for letting me know Where are you at right now Grace because you see my emotional and that obviously is not how the original Discussion went to this issue goes. What are you feeling right now? When Lori asked about why Finn had brought that up I don't think that it was to let me know in case I found out we were in a really like heated argument already About what so we had brought her a donut and she had said Yikes two donuts and one day like not a good thing And so then I went to the room pulled him When she makes comments like that would you mind helping me reinforce the boundary? And then he's kind of paused and he said yeah, but then I took that as He didn't actually like want to do that even though he was saying he did He said so do you just not want any conversations to be had about this? I said, well, yes, like I don't want that to happen Then he's like she actually came up to me and was said this thing and like secret because you didn't want you to hear it And so it sounded more of like Because of the way that you think this is now the consequence of that of people having to tell around you and so It didn't seem like it was I'm telling you this because they don't want Unified now later. It was more I'm telling you this because look at the disruption that you're causing This is really tricky and nuanced to be clear because This was almost like a provocation. He is a donut and then she responds to the donuts spontaneously by saying oh, it's two in one day So she had her own reaction because she has her own issues Perhaps with waiting food and my question for you Finn is if you Disagree about where the boundary is or what's a reasonable boundary? Do you feel comfortable if you have A different position to voice it on a topic. That's a really sensitive topic for grace I don't feel 100% confident. Can you tell grace your point of view? So that night I had explained that My point of view was if somebody came to me telling me their goals and their achievements and they were happy about it I didn't want to shut them down Now if it was having some sort of negative impact where they were disrespecting you I would have immediately put a stop to it The other thing I explained to you was for example if I was Working toward my goals and I was finally reaching them. It would feel really good if somebody said hey good job And then when you told me that that still wasn't okay I just felt like okay well then I don't want to say anything around you You guys are talking about the content And what we would like you to talk about is the process So you can argue the different points about anything we happen to be talking about this Weight boundary, but we could be talking about any of the many arguments that the two of you have had and the process is What grace was picking up on earlier Which is that she suspects and I suspect that she's right that you feel a bit constrained By this boundary and you're also not sure where the boundary begins and where it ends So can you talk to her about what the two of you do when You feel like I want to help make you feel comfortable and at the same time This is making me so uncomfortable That we need to find some place where we both feel comfortable Something that we've argued about which I feel like everything ties in together has been jealousy We've recently had arguments about jealousy and co-workers texting me where there was no The conversation never went anywhere other than work-related conversations There was this big argument to where she went through my phone I went through my social media pretty much and I explained to her this goes back to the trust issues as well I said you can look through my phone But I just want to let you know that if you go through that you tell me how much you trust me I know I'm not hiding anything after I explain that to her she still went through it and I said okay Fin, can you tell grace? How you feel about what happened and then grace I want you to tell Fin how you feel about these texts and what you see We want you to stick with not the facts and not whether it weren't nobody's right or wrong here So there's no let me tell you why I'm right It's let me tell you how this makes me feel That's all we want to hear so when you want to go through my phone or you sort of questioning me about text messages I feel like maybe you just don't trust me and I don't know it makes me question whether I'm doing something wrong. I go through my messages. I go Through my phone and it just I feel like a bad person in for somebody's, and even though I feel like I'm not doing anything wrong. Yeah, I feel like because of the history that we've had with flying, sometimes I think that you're going to do something back because I hurt you like years ago. And so when I see reoccurring co-workers name pop up, I just start to put in information that isn't there and makes me wonder about a lot of things even though you've never given me a reason to feel that way. Sometimes those thoughts are so big that I have to do something and check and make sure. Grace, you're sitting with a lot in that moment and you do have to do something about those feelings. Does it occur to you that one of the things you could do is come to Finn and say, hey, you know, I sometimes get these feelings that you haven't totally given me or gotten over. Those lies I told you years ago back in high school in college. And it makes me worry that you're still holding some kind of anger or resentment and that that will be expressed in some kind of way. So when I see a co-worker's name come up, I immediately go to is that how it's being expressed. I have these worries and fears and I thought I should tell you about them because I know you haven't given me any reason to be concerned or suspicious, but I thought you should know where my mind goes. Has it occurred to you that you can just go with the feeling without actually the behavior that signals I don't trust you, but to convey I do trust you here, I'm sharing this. What you're saying to you guys, obviously the most ideal, but I think that Finn has sometimes a difficult time with receiving emotions and even expressing them. And so if I think it will be met with while I'm not doing anything or the emotion will be touched on. Can you tell him what would be a response that would feel really comforting and reassuring to you? Yeah, I think if I were to come to you and tell you about what was coming up for me, I think something that would be helpful is I think sometimes like when I come to you, you ask like, well why? Why do you feel that way? And I think it would just be helpful for you to respond with, I would never want to like hurt you in that way of having that reassurance. I think like that would be helpful in those moments. Would it help if he gave you a hug in those moments? Yeah, and I think it would be helpful if you gave me like hug. Finn, how does that sound to you? I hear what she's saying and what I've expressed in the past is almost like if I were to apologize to what she says, I feel like I'm kind of accepting what she's saying as to, you know what you're right, I am. Did you hear that she was asking for you to apologize for something? Is that how you heard it? She wants to be heard. I know that. Actually, she wants to be reassured. That's what she wants. But also there's going to be a critical difference, grace in terms of how Finn hears it. If you say it the way I suggested in which you say, I have these warries and concerns, they might not be reasonable. I'm going back so many years, but I'm sharing my anxiety with you. Sounds very different than sometimes I worry if you're doing such and such. If you come from the place of this might be me as opposed to it's you because when Finn hears as I'm feeling suspicious, he hears that as therefore you did something that triggered that as opposed to I'm still dealing with some of these feelings and this is what comes up, which sounds much less than accusation. And I think that's what would make it much easier for Finn to just stay with me. Assurance, if you knew that's what you needed as opposed to feeling like he has to defend himself because there's a subtext of accusation. I do catch myself often trying to defend myself and that's been another argument in itself. For example, she'll ask me questions. Why is she texting you? Why does her name always pop up? Why does she always ask you questions? Why does she call her husband? And I answer her questions. I say, well, I have more experience in my career to what I could help this person out. And after I give my explanation and she'll say, I just don't understand why she's texting you though. I feel it's almost like I'm being interrogated or it's an attack. Correct. Attack. That's the word I was about to say. Grace, it's interesting that the trust issues come up because you were the one who lied to Finn. And yet you question whether he's going to retaliate and be dishonest with you. So he hasn't done anything that has made you question whether you can trust him. And I'm wondering, given that some of this has to do with your insecurity, have you ever explored any of that, your own history in therapy? Yeah, I currently go to therapy every week, and that's something that has been the focus most recently, the history of my confidence, because I feel like something that I've discovered in therapy is engaging in self-sabotaging behaviors. And I know that it can be like overwhelming for Finn sometimes. And so I have expressed, I hope that you don't get tired and like leave. He hasn't ever said he was going to, but you know, I just feel like sometimes people can only take so much. Well, that's the self-sabotaging though. You're worried that he's going to leave. So then you try to control him in all these different ways, which might actually not make him leave, but make him feel less close to you. Yeah. So the very thing that you're afraid of by trying to control him so that it doesn't happen, might actually make him feel overly controlled, and then he's going to feel distant from you. So we're suggesting that there are other ways it sounds paradoxical, but to be less controlling will actually allow him to come closer to you. Yeah. And that's where you're going to have to deal with your anxiety, because it's your anxiety that you're bringing to him. It's not anything that he's done. It's this anxiety about whether you are worthy of his interest. And he's not doing anything and you agree with that. I think a principle. Yeah. I do agree. I do agree that he isn't doing anything and hasn't done anything. Finn, how does that feel to hear that for her to say he isn't doing anything and he hasn't done anything? This huge smile swept over you. She's acknowledged that in the past. And what makes me smile is that I feel like although that's been acknowledged, the arguments have still come up. And Finn, have you acknowledged to grace how that makes you feel in those moments? Have you been able to say to her something like, you know, Grace, I'm trying really hard to understand how you feel, but sometimes when it's about your anxiety and it comes out in a way that makes me feel that I'm defending myself a lot and I don't feel resentful, but I might if this continues. I think we've had that conversation. You've said those things. So we have this huge walking closet and it's in our bedroom and one time we were sitting in there and we actually had a calm conversation. We were expressing our feelings about this topic in particular. From what I remember, I thought I had explained that to her about how I felt about this. Yes, he did. He did. Yeah. What happened where you were able to go into the closet and have a really calm conversation? Is that a place that the two of you can go and have calmer conversations? What happened that time that went so well that went so differently from all of these other conversations that escalate into screaming matches? I might have been getting ready for bed. I don't remember, but she walked into the closet and she just had a take a seat. We sat down and we just started talking. She apologized about things that she has said and I believe I also apologized. He did express I just feel like when I'm accused of these things, it just really upsets me because I'm doing XYZ to try to build like a future for us and it just doesn't feel great. There was like really deep conversations about emotions. I really, really like. And so when I have them with Finn, it just makes me really like happy when I hear about his feelings and what's coming up for him, but I feel like that's very rare. But that's why it's so important, Grace, and Finn, that we come back to this question that we're asking you. What allowed that to happen in the closet at that time? What allowed you Finn to feel comfortable enough not to defend, but to actually be vulnerable and talk about your feelings? What was that? I feel like it was when I would tell her pretty much how I felt. She would look at me and listen. I remember her specifically just nodding her head to reassure me that she was listening to what I was saying. I think that what allowed you to say it is that she says let's talk and the talk started with an apology rather than An accusation. The minute you don't feel you have to defend, you have more access to your feelings because you're not busy defending and you have a little bit more ability to express them. And then grace you have the ability to hear them and appreciate them. And that's really important to note that when you start with the anxiety, which fin you here as an accusation or an attack, then you get defensive. Then those conversations don't go well. But when you start with a vulnerability and you respond with vulnerability, then you connect. And that is key for the two of you to remember that each being vulnerable is going to allow you to have much more productive and connective conversations than being defensive or a custodery. Yeah, make sense. Grace, what is going on for you right now? I think I just like appreciate guy saying that I just want Finn to be more open to doing that. And I think that he is open to doing that when he doesn't feel like a big argument is about to break out. Going back to the weight issue, for example, do I tell her this? Do I not tell her this? What do I do in this moment? He can't really talk about his experience of what it's like when he feels like there's no way to please you. Yeah, because I think ultimately he wants you to feel good. But sometimes what you're asking of him feels impossible, confusing, unrealistic. That's where these conversations are so important that you and an ideal world might like there to be zero discussion of weight and is particularly in your home. And then you have this other person living with you and you might reasonably say, look, I don't want people to discuss diets and weight and their insecurities in front of me. Okay. But they have to be able to talk about things amongst themselves because otherwise they can have their own independent relationship. Yeah. And that conversation just escalated because there's no room for both of the perspectives. So I'm wondering if we can just go back and see if you guys can have a different discussion right now about weight and what that might look like. If you can really invite Finn to share his feelings about what this is like for him as someone who thinks you're beautiful knows your history and wants to be able to create some harmony in the household and make you feel comfortable, but also create an environment where he feels comfortable too. Can you ask him offer an invitation to him? Both of you need to keep that in mind that when you're talking to the other person, you're offering them an invitation. You're not trying to sway them. You're trying to invite them from a place of curiosity. Can you make that invitation to him? Yeah. So I want to, I guess, talk about conversations about weight and how can I make you feel more comfortable? How can I reassure you that I'm okay with listening to what you have to say that I'll really try and understand it and hear it with my ears rather than with my gut? I feel like when you ask me questions, especially difficult topics like this, if I give you a response, you can't tell me that my feelings are wrong. I feel like that's what makes it tough. So what would make it comfortable or I guess like more reassuring for you in those moments? How can I reassure you that I'm listening and I'm taking in how you feel? I'm thinking about the conversation that we had when we were sitting in the closet. It was a calm voice eye contact. We were not cutting each other off. So Fin, can you tell her how you feel about the boundaries right now that are in the household and what you would like to see that takes into account Greece's feelings but also yours? I know the boundaries that you want set in the household. To a point, I feel like there were a little vague. I want more clarification because I feel confused towards like, well, what can be said and what cannot be said? What do you think you would be comfortable with what's being said? Me personally, if I feel like it's not attacking you, for example, I've used to say clean food, right? If I were to eat certain foods like, hey, I don't want to eat junk food or dirty food, not get attacked and say, food's not dirty, you can't say that. Comments like that just make me say, okay, well, I don't want to say anything then never mind. You mentioned feelings a couple of times and I think you would be good for you Fin to have more of that. For each of the positions you have, you can have a feeling behind it. You can say, for example, try and stay away from the things I know are problematic. But if something comes out and it's in the gray area, it would be great if you just let it go so I didn't have to feel like I'm self conscious about talking about the topic. And I just don't want to talk about it. So you add a layer of the emotional impact before the request comes and that makes it much easier for grace to hear and understand. And you kind of know how you feel. It wasn't very difficult for you to articulate, to get to the feelings and that phrasing you use grace about what would be comfortable. Because it's a really considerate question to ask, so there's something generous in the question alone. And I'm thinking back to that original disagreement that you guys had about whether grace could experiment or not experiment with smoking and drinking. And that's another place where you've been felt very strongly. The way grace now feels very strongly about the weight conversations. And you tried to control her and it didn't work out too well. She ended up lying, she ended up going behind your back. She wasn't able to say to you, I really want to experiment with this saying, no, you don't really feel comfortable with it. I don't want to lie to you, but I also feel like this is something that I want to do right now. And maybe she would have or maybe she wouldn't have maybe you would have had a better conversation about it. And it wouldn't have caused so much anxiety on both sides. Because there would have been room for you to talk about we have this difference. We have different people and we want to make each other comfortable, but we also need to live in the world. Every couple has to manage those questions. How much do we make the other person comfortable? How much do we make ourselves comfortable? Where can those overlap? Where we're both comfortable? And where are the ways where we have to tolerate a little bit of difference? And that might be where you don't like the terminology he uses around something and he can be aware of that and try to change that. But he's also saying, if I happen to use this terminology, because that's what I'm used to, can we just not make a big deal out of it? I'm trying in all of these ways and I want to be recognized for all the ways that I'm trying to make you comfortable. But at a certain point, I become uncomfortable because I feel like I can't say anything without me being bad in your eyes. And same with this question around the texting and the coworker where he's saying, I need you to trust me on this and I will be there and give you the hug and give you the reassurance. But if it happens every single time, it's going to push me away. It's going to be hard for me to do the thing that you want that makes you feel comfortable, Grace, which is me being vulnerable and opening up with you. Here. And Grace also to recognize that when he says to you, you can look at my phone whenever if you look at it too much, it's going to imply that you don't trust me and that will make me feel all kinds of things. It's the principle of the access that's reassuring rather than having to verify that, however regularly by going through the phone, the fact that you have access should be the reassuring thing and the thing that you then convey appreciation for. And maybe what you're really asking underneath all that is, can you give me more reassurance that you find me attractive regardless of these texts. I'm for whatever reason, feeling insecure and hear the ways that I would love to be reassured. Maybe it's verbally, maybe it's non-verbaly, through touch. Do you know what those ways are that you like to be reassured that you feel desired by him? He looked right at you like, oh, I really want to hear this. So this would be really good information for him. I think through touch, but also through your words, I know that you say, like you love me, we say that a lot. But I think just being able to express, like Lori said, you do find me attractive, not just when I get my eyebrows done or something. I'm not saying that you only do it with them, but like that reaction that you do where you're like, dang, I like one that more. When she gets like her eyebrows done or eyelashes, I just did a exaggerated hype pretty much. I'm like, then that looks so good. Let me see a picture of this. That looks good. And look at the expression on her face when you do that. Yeah, right? And so that's great. There are all kinds of other ways to do that. You can do that that way but it gets a really strong response and racist sanction is more of that and not just eyebrows day It can be a regular day and it can be passing by and just touching her as you pass by and whispering something to her Little moments that can really convey that would be good to amplify Yeah, it's definitely something I'm going to try more Mm-hmm. And I have one last question Use mentioned in your letter that sometimes you say things that you don't mean We don't call each other names, but we do attack each other last night for example I was talking to him about starting couples therapy and I had brought up like something about entrance and the cost and he Said something along lines of it's going to be XML a month. So how long do you think it's going to take and I said well It just depends on how Invested we are I guess but when he asked the question of well, how long is this going to take? I shut down. I stopped talking Because you heard it as We are not worth investing in How did you hear it? Yeah, like it's going to be that much so we can just work on it by ourselves like I don't prioritize Our marriage that's what you heard that's not what he said, but that's what you heard right? Yeah, okay Right fin. I don't think you were saying to Grace. I don't prioritize us or our marriage Can you tell Grace what you meant when you said that? Well, I feel like the conversation came up about the insurance not taking it for couples therapy and As I was driving you were giving me all these numbers about how much it might be and I just said okay, so how much would it be a month? I was just asking for our financial information pretty much and the reason I was asking you is because what you do for work I feel like you'd have more information, so I was pretty much asking okay, we'd be paying this much a month How long would you like to keep going to this person? and When I kind of got the negative response to it where I was like hey, it's not what I meant I feel like that's when I got upset and something Grace didn't mention is I I told her you know what it doesn't matter what the price is I'm willing to pay X amount of money just so I could finally ask you questions in peace I'm laughing because That is the core of what happens both ways You both interpret each other's behavior as an attack the interpret questions as an attack Yes, you interpret questions like tell me about the text. Oh, you're bad, right? You're cheating on me So when you think about how we make stories up in our heads about what something means We try to make meaning and we tell a story and your story their grace was He doesn't prioritize our relationship. This is a burden He's kind of grudgingly thinking about can we put a price on our marriage, right? Or does he want to spend the money on something else that's not as valuable? And I think what he was saying is I'm trying to protect us of course I value our marriage and I'm trying to take care of our financial picture at the same time So I'm trying to be responsible By figuring out, okay, how can we make this work? And so I need information because of your profession you might have an idea about how long this might go on and that can help me budget So let's try to think about this His interpretation was I'm asking these questions for the good of us and you heard oh, I'm not invested in us Yeah, I do think that that happens a lot When we argue then we'll often say like I'm not trying to attack you like I'm on your team But it doesn't fill that way sometimes both like we're on completely opposite teams Well, that's mutual right you both feel attacked in the conversations that you have Then we're gonna suggest ways for you to change some of that dynamic and the new thing to do would be to say I'm beating that a little bit as an attack. Do you mean that this way or how do you mean that and you Need to be much slower In how you have these discussions because you say one short thing and another short thing and then there are 10 assumptions in between Those things and a lot of them are wrong You really have to put assumptions aside Slow it down and go wait. I was feeling that but that might be wrong I just want to check so the slowing down they're not rushing forward based on faulty assumptions Which you each have plenty of as we've seen today will be very helpful So Grace and Finn we have some advice for you and we were thinking about how you met so young and How we all no matter what age we meet bring things from our childhoods into our current Relationships and what we would like you to do is to each write down One thing that you think you bring in so grace What do you bring in Finn? What do you bring in that sometimes? gets in the way Of being present in the moment for example grace you mentioned that you have a history in your family of Weight being handled a certain way So what part of that gets in the way of these conversations with Finn and Finn you probably have something Maybe you felt accused, but whatever it was that you think sometimes Gets conflated with what's happening in the present in this relationship now So that's the first task. We always say if it's hysterical it's historical And that means that if you're having a really big reaction to something Part of it is about what's happening in the moment But part of it is also probably about what has happened in the past That is getting layered onto the conversation in the present Okay, you want us to share it with each other. Yes reflect on it separately Write it down and then share it with each other Another task would like you to do once a day Each of you initiate a flirtation It can be very mild. It can be acute text It can be you pass by and you caress the other person It can be you say something complimentary or you leave a voicemail You left a note about a i miss your cute face Something that's flirty so it's romantic slash sexual But one little flirt that each gave to one another Once a day because that will remind you Of your romantic connection. I think you guys are much more excited about this test than the first one you guys are smiling so much right now I thought that was easier and that's something that we know grace is really craving and I'll bet you too fit It's nice to hear that your partner really desires you are thinking about you and they bring that sense of fun Back to the relationship and so when you are having more difficult conversations You have that glue of the fun and the enjoyment as well The next thing is we know that sometimes your arguments can escalate and go from zero to 60 very very Quickly and especially on certain topics We'd like you to both recognize that the minute the escalation is happening and you know when it's happening because Faces are getting red tones might get louder emphasis might be stronger The minute that's happening it means you are not understanding The other person you're getting defensive you're getting combative you've stopped listening and trying to understand The other person and you have a history of making a lot of assumptions some of which might not be true So every time one of you catches both of you catch an escalation happening You get to come up with a ceasefire And the instruction is you go into curiosity mode Because at that point you've stopped understanding the other person So now that's the actual goal you pause whatever the argument is about and say Fin I'm getting annoyed. I'm getting frustrated, but I'm putting that aside. I really want to understand Exactly what you think and how you feel about it and let's spend a little bit of time on that and then we can spend time On you understanding me, but let's make sure we really understand one another Rather than making assumptions and now giving on assumptions that are faulty in the first place It is very difficult to stop the document But usually we find if one of you can take the initiative at some point and say The escalation time curiosity time whatever the phrase that you would use that suits you and come up with the phrase that you know is the signal This is a way to really train yourselves to get curious rather than get angry And in both of your lines of work as a police officer You know all about de-escalation and how to handle that and as a therapist grace when things start to escalate You know how to help people de-escalate So come up with something that feels familiar to both of you In terms of how can we de-escalate with each other What is the word the action That we know is just our shorthand and now we're going to get really curious because clearly we're not understanding each other right now And you might even need as part of the de-escalation we're going to take a 15 minute break And once you find the word that will get you to stop what you're doing Shake hands on the fact that when somebody uses that word It's like a timeout you got to abide so just be very clear that you're agreeing to abide by that timeout We find that if words are getting really loud and people can't hear each other Sometimes the signal that they have with each other is one personal just start dancing When person does a funny move or something with their body And then it's like oh whoa wait, okay got it and the other person us to mimic it. And you just, okay, we're on the same page now. This is our de-escalation. And that means this is our ceasefire right now. And the other person does it in kind. Maybe we need a little break to de-escalate ourselves, but we're going to come back to it and get curious. And we're going to recommend a book about couples communication. And we'd like you to this week read the chapter or listen to the chapter together and just discuss what you took away from it, how you can implement anything there in your own lives. The book is called Seven Principles for Making a Marriage Work. And it's by John Gottman. You're smiling. Grace, you're familiar? Yeah, I have it on my Amazon curve, but I haven't ordered it. Well, then it's going to be very easy to order. We want you to each listen to the chapter or each read and then discuss this week. Because, as you will see there, there are four signs of poor communication. They're called in the forehorsement of the apocalypse. All couples have them. But when they are really the main pattern of the communication, they're very problematic. And they include criticism, contempt, stone-walling, and defensiveness. And again, it's about the dosage and the frequency. But we want you to be aware so that you can avoid them. And the next thing is we love the fact that when you got into the closet together, you were able to have this really calm, open, vulnerable conversation with each other. You could truly hear each other. It felt safe to both of you. So we would like you to build in to your relationship a once a week, very quick relationship check-in in the closet. Go in the closet once a week and make this like a date. It's not going to feel burdensome because it could be five minutes. And it's really that curiosity exercise. Tell me about you. Tell me about you. And it's just to really get to know what's going on inside for each other. And it's a place that you're associating with. We feel safe to be open here. We don't escalate in here. We know that we can go into curiosity mode in here. And it's good for us to check in because sometimes when we don't check in, things build up. And then we're already primed to have an argument because we're already upset. We want you to talk about it before you get upset. So the closet is a very sacred place. We do not escalate in the closet. Okay. Sounds good. Okay. If you do get into an argument this week or you do have a disagreement this week, we would like you to do the stop, whatever that signal is for you. We want you to go into the curiosity. And then we want you to argue the other person's perspective. And by "are you," we don't mean get loud. We mean we want you to articulate if you were the other person, tell your version of it from that person's perspective. You don't have to agree with their perspective at all. It's just now I really understand why they feel this way. I understand why this is a big deal to that. And then you can kind of come to, okay, now what do we do? Now that we both really feel that we understand the other person. It's very powerful to hear the other person argue your perspective because then it makes you feel like, okay, she does get it. Okay, he does get it because he's doing a good job arguing my side. I think that sounds pretty like doable and good. It sounds good. I really like the exercise. Even though it sounds like it'll be a little tough, I like the one where we have to argue the other person's point of view. And I was like, wow, that's, I never thought about doing something like that. It seems interesting. So I'm looking forward to trying that exercise out. Yeah, thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate it. I feel like you guys are really helpful in being able to just get to, I guess the root of things. And so I really appreciate you taking the time and having us on here. You know, one of the thing I'll listen is, can't see is how a couple when they're sitting next to each other are interacting during the session. And this couple was so warm and they were looking at each other and they were smiling at each other. They were touching each other. The entire time they had contact between them, it was really an important facet that we certainly registered very much as therapists and it makes us feel like this is a couple that really cares about each other. And that's always great to see because that's a strong foundation to build them. Yeah, I think it was clear how much love there is between the two of them. They clearly care a lot about each other. And they have a real enjoyment of each other that they could smile, they could laugh when grace would start to tear up or cry. He was very present. You know, when we think about couples who have communication difficulties, but they also don't have the glue that this couple has, there's another hurdle. And they don't have that hurdle. I do really think that the fact that they got together young gave them one advantage, which is that they on one hand kind of grew up together. On the other hand, they're still using communication patterns and they still have childhood histories getting in the way of adult communication. But I think that the tools that we gave them are things that they can use every single day and find that eventually when they put these into practice in a consistent way, that it's really going to change the way they interact with each other on a regular basis and they won't have those kinds of escalations. And that's the thing that I think is also very encouraging. They both seem so open to these tools and to experiment with these things and even a little excited about it. So that's very promising. You're listening to Dear Therapists. Writing should enhance your flow and mental alignment. Elevator Daily notes in planning with a G2 Boost collection from Pilot. Featuring the legendary smooth G2 gel ink, comfort grip, and powered by the science of color, with blue for productivity, purple for creativity, and pink for optimism. They're designed to power your accomplishments and intentions. Get G2 Boost on Amazon today. G2 Boost. Hughes to power you. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and health captive for nine months. I just remember this low taunting voice next to my ear saying, "Shut up, don't say anything." Every week I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I choose option B. I'm Julie Bignero and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. Every time I tried to be alone I kept meeting people and they were like, "You smiled at us, not a lot of people smile around here." It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey this is Hayes Davenport and Sean Clemence. Our show is extremely accessible to first-time listeners. Each week we talk to someone in show business, aka The Biz, and try to help them with their careers and see what they have to offer us. Not that great. How about we flip this grab? What is the surprise one man? Actually you think it's the straight man is actually the one who's acting weird. Adam Scott this entire time you've been expecting Adam Sandler to come to visit the show. I am open to it. You know Danny McBride, fine. I was like, "Is that what you need?" No, it's fragile masculinity. Ben Stiller, no. I think there's a lot of times out of context people don't get it or even know what a circle is. the show and he wants to be a guest on every episode, but he's just so busy. So Guy, we heard back from Grayson Finn and I'm excited to hear how their week went. Hi, Laurie. Hi, Guy. This is Grayson Finn. We were just calling you to give you an update on the tasks that you asked us to do. Starting with the cute texts, flirting, that was really fun. I feel like receiving Finn's messages really made me feel loved and like he was thinking about me and just also being able to do that with him too. I think really bridged and furthered a connection between the two of us. Yeah, same thing. Grayson actually left a posted note on the mirror one day that I saw when I woke up and I felt like that really meant a lot, even though something really minor made me feel a lot more connected to her and it's crazy how something so small impacted my day. So I felt like that really helped. And then we were able to establish kind of like we didn't argue this past week, which was kind of really nice. There was a little bit of a we were going to argue, but it ended up not being an argument. It was something that again was filled with assumptions, but we kind of talked about it a little bit. We did establish that we were going to try to hug when we were arguing and Finn even said he was going to break out in a dance move. So I'm looking forward to seeing that. And we were able to read the chapter of seven principles of making a marriage work. It was really interesting to kind of reflect on the things that I did and brought into the relationship and hearing Finn's perspective was helpful. Same thing, I'm reading the book. I was able to see some of the stuff that I bring into the relationship that maybe I never realized in sliver to this chapter. So I feel like reading this chapter really did help out a lot. And the homework they all assigned actually, I feel like just really helped us out and we didn't argue this week. And I think a lot of the reason why we didn't argue, which me and Finn talked about was being able to be more connected and feel more like friends almost even though we were never not friends, but just being able to hear some vulnerabilities from Finn and vice versa. We did go into the closet. We actually sat there for quite a while more than five minutes. And we talked about some things about a relationship, but also some things that we need from each other, which was really nice. And it was more connected then. Yeah. And it was fun to see Finn so excited to do the homework. He was actually looking forward to it and it was really nice to see that. And we were able to practice articulating the other person's perspective based off of a previous argument, not based off of a current one since we didn't get into one, but we were able to see each other's sides and argue those points. More than anything, we really want to thank you, Lauren, Guy, because we feel like you guys did a phenomenal job at being able to help us connect more and help us communicate better. Yeah, I appreciate you guys so much. Thank you for listening to us. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to come on to the podcast. And once again, just I feel like it definitely improved our relationship with feeling more connected. So again, thank you all very much. You know, Finn is really getting curious about this relationship now and getting curious about how things work and she is too. And when I hear that they had a conversation about the fact that they didn't really have an argument and what that's about, that's great. That's a couple who are starting to be self reflective, looking at what they're doing, how they're communicating and getting curious about it. It is the best ingredient for good communication and for working on things. And that's so important. So we're not saying to them, don't argue. We're saying, when you have a disagreement, can you use the tools that we gave you? Curiosity, looking at the forehorsement from the Gottman book, what are the assumptions? Can you articulate the other person's perspective? Can you go into that space, which for them was the closet? It was a nice safe place for them to go. And can you then be more vulnerable in that space of trust where you know it's not going to escalate? And I love also that they decided they're going to hug. That's going to be their signal to each other that they're escalating and that Finn might break out into a dance move. I think that's a brilliant strategy. I love it too. Finn is the police officer. Grace is the therapist. She's the one that's more emotional. But as we always say, there's a difference between what we express in terms of what we're feeling and what we're actually feeling. And both of them had really similar emotional responses to the assignment. Both of them felt really buoyed by the flirtation. Finn really felt touched by the post it on the mirror. They were both excited to read the book and to discuss it. They both felt much more connected to one another and felt that that was important because they needed that. I think their emotional experience under the hood, away from what they actually project to the outside world is really similar in that way. And which is great because they're both emotional. They both have the capacity for it and they both need that connection. I love Guy what you say about connection because when people are arguing they're completely disconnected. They're not connecting in any way, shape or form. They're trying to prove their point. They feel unheard. They feel misunderstood. And everything that they did this week made them feel further connected. It built up the trust. And that allows the space for curiosity. Which is also why Grace and Finn, if you're listening, we'd like you to still do that first task that we gave you, which was to tell each other one thing from your history that you bring into this relationship. But I do think Guy that they made good steps in starting to build trust and closeness. And that allows the space to hear each other. And even the flirting exercise, it just makes them feel more valued and held by the other person. And that's the foundation that we all need to feel understood in a relationship. Next week, a woman whose parents are pressuring her to get married and have a baby wonders how to set boundaries with her family. But I was 23. He would say, oh no, she doesn't need to get married yet. She's so young, she has time. And then, you know, in a couple of years after that, it's all you're too old. You don't have time. If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for free so you don't miss any episodes. And please help support your therapist by telling your friends about it and leaving a review on Apple podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show. If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, email us at Lori and [email protected]. Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fischer, additional editing support by Zachary Fischer and Katie Matty. Our intern is an unadoriate and special thanks to our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see you at our next session. The Atherapist is a production of iHot Radio. When life gets busy, it's important to reach for the things that help keep you grounded. Enhance your focus with the new G2 Edge gel pens from Pilot. 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