Emptying the NFL Draft Notebook With Albert Breer

[MUSIC] >> My drafts are flowing. Buzz is swirling all around. And we've got Albert Breer here, one of the great human beings and insiders in this business. We're going to talk through the first round of the draft. We're going to find out what he's hot on right now. And this is a special episode we're excited to share. Guess what? Just 15 days till the NFL draft. Menches and with us today, he's grinding out reports. But I know he's good. Tucker roll that beat, please. [MUSIC] >> There he is, as promised Albert Breer. Bird, how you doing, brother? >> I'm doing great, how you doing, Todd? >> Good, good. I can give this long school. >> You and I have been weirdly and indirectly linked since our early 20s. You knew guys that I grew up with, the canals and the demarcases. We lived in the back bay of Boston together and didn't even really know at the time. We both moved around the same time to the south end. And then now we're two towns away in the south shore. And our son's going to the same football clinics with the M2P. So that's right. You're listening to the McShay show, presented by Fandall. And soon we'll all be listening to all the names called in this year's NFL draft. But with Fandall, you don't have to just listen because Fandall has all kinds of bets on where players will land. You know I love this stuff. Not only can you bet on who will be drafted first overall, but you can also bet on whether a player will go in the top five, top 10, and so much more. So if you don't already have it, be sure to download the Fandall Sports Book app today. Must be 21 and older and select states 18 plus in DC Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem. Call 1-800 gambler. Call 1-8-8-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. >> I don't know if I'm chasing you, you're chasing me or just it's a coincidence. >> Yeah, I still remember. I think I was like that. So I lived in Hanson Street in the south and me and my wife did that. We had our first kid there and I remember running and walking into you, there's a coffee shop on the corner of, I think it was on like, on the corner of Shomit and Hanson. And I was like walking down there and I'm like holy crap Todd, I had no idea you lived here. >> I didn't know you lived there either. >> And then sure enough, a couple of weeks ago I run into you at M2, which is the passing academy up here and your kids a quarter back and my kid is a little fifth grade tight end. And so- >> He's not little, he's not little. He's like his tall as me. >> Yeah, he's got good length, he's got good lovers. So yeah, he'll, we'll see where that goes. But yeah, that was just, I mean what was that like three weeks ago? Wasn't long ago. >> Yeah, yeah. >> So we've had a bunch of weird chance encounters like that for sure. But we've always been kind of working together and I've always enjoyed our conversations. Like every draft it feels like for, I can't remember more than a decade you and I've got it on the phone a couple times. >> I'll give you credit too. You indeed are the two guys like for me, like where at the beginning like I'm coming out of the Super Bowl and I, and you can verify this. Like you two are the guys I always call as like okay, like I need to get caught up. Like now I've been sunk into playoffs for the last five weeks and I've got an idea of who the great college players are. But like you guys have been so invaluable to me and kind of getting me caught up and all of what's going on with the college players and everything else. And so. >> We get you started and then you close the deal for us with a lot of the information stuff. So let's get to that. I'm curious because this is the time of year, right? You get a kind of sift through as you get a really good strainer of like what's real and what's not. You get the owners meetings and conversations you're having daily. Let's start it with the, let's start with the Raiders, okay? And then after that I want to just find out it doesn't have to be the second pick, third pick. Like what are you hot on? What are you hearing? What's most interesting to you? But let's, what has been, I feel like when you know the pick in this far in advance with the Raiders and Fernando Mendoza, everyone. And it wasn't dissimilar last year. The only question about Cam Ward, it wasn't about, oh he's this kind of player or he's this kind of fit. It was, are the giants going to offer enough to move up, you know? Right. Which they tried and it didn't happen. And the same thing with Mendoza this year except everyone knows there's no offer they can be made. But I'm greasy who I worked with for several years, close family friend. Like he, he's been working with him, you know, in a non-official role getting him from Mendoza prepared and obviously with the shenanigans and the kubi act ties. But what, what do you know about the process? Like what led them to Mendoza, like no question about it. These are guys. Well, the Raiders, I mean, like really this started in the fall for them and, you know, it wasn't, it's John Spytek, it's Brian Stark, it's Brandon Hunt, Brandon Yerrig and all these guys working and scouting with the Raiders. And then they had an idea. We may not be great this year in 2025 and we may be in position to go and get a quarterback. So we better go and look at everybody. And so like there was a lot of boots in the ground over the course of fall and it's actually interesting, you know, John Spytek, their general manager, really kind of dug in at the end of the season on Mendoza specifically. And so there was a trip over Thanksgiving weekend where they went and saw and I, I, I, it was Brendan Soarsby, I think it's Cincinnati and I think of like TCU that weekend. I think it was the Friday night and that was, that was that Cincinnati and then they shot it over to Purdue. What I think was the coldest game in Purdue history to see Mendoza play live there. So they get to see him in the weather, you know, on a Saturday at Purdue. And then they saw him in the peach bowl against against Oregon and then they saw him in the national championship game of course as everybody knows against Miami at hard rock. And so, you know, they had, they'd had eyes on him for a while and getting to see him there. At the same time, they were doing a lot of the same work on, on, on Dante Moore. And so there have been a number of quarterbacks. But I think by the time they got to that point, the national championship game, really the two guys that they had looked at said like, yeah, we'd be comfortable taking this guy in the top five were Fernando Mendoza and Dante Moore. And so then, you know, of course, they're diving into and they didn't know their drafts law at that point. And they didn't know their drafts law at that point. So you had an idea, you're drafting, you're going to be drafting pretty high. And so it's like, these are the two guys that really kind of I think stood out to them. And so, you know, like they're going through that process and everything else. And, you know, then as they're digging into the tape of both these guys and looking at all the Dante Moore tape from UCLA and Oregon and all the Fernando Mendoza tape from Cal and Indiana. Because that's how it always works now, right? So there's always multiple schools to look at with these guys. You know, I think it crystallized for them. And then of course, Dante Moore decides that he's going to go back to Oregon for his fourth college season. And so, and so, you know, it was a great decision for him, but you have to kind of wonder, right? Right. And so, you know, there's a lot of things that I think are going to do in the next two years, you know, the next two years. And so, I think, you know, I think that's what I'm trying to do. And so, it's going to be, you know, the next two years, I think that's what I'm trying to do. And so, you know, I think a lot of the things that I'm trying to do, I think that's what I'm going to do, I think I'm going to do. I think that's what I'm trying to do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, to me, I think the the important part for them was okay, we've done all this research. He seems like a great kid. Um, the physical tools you like. And there's a lot to look at here where you say, okay, like, you know, works as a s of is the personality different. Yeah. But he's still comfortable in his own skin. You're okay with that. I think what was the significant, the most significant thing about the 30 visits probably getting face to face with Tom Brady, you know. And. Yeah. Well, so what's Tom's role legitimately in all this? So I can't tell you the all the nuts and bolts of like everything that he's done, but I feel confident saying he's looked at the tape. He was obviously there in person. And you know what, Scouse, look, for him, sure Tom was looking for the same thing. When he was on the ground in Miami there, in pregame, they're looking how do they interact with their teammates, right? Like what sort of leader are they in game? Like you're looking at like a lot of things that aren't happening between the lines, you know what I mean? Like so, I think with Brady, I think you might have been one of the first people that actually said to me that you thought a lot of like Mendoza, the makeup, the story. I think you were the one of the first people that we talked about in December, I think. Like Brady will identify with it, right? Like because it's like, he's got good, not great physical tools. And you know, he really had to fight to find his place in college football. And you know, then he gets there and he crushes it. And he's able to compete for a championship. And he has the work ethic and the drive and all that stuff that Brady, I think, would really identify with. Would I would be interested to see? And I think this is going to wind up, you know, and I'm planning on, I'll do a big story on the draft on their whole process. I, what I'd be really interested to hear about at this point that I don't know would be in that face to face with Brady yesterday. How does that was yesterday? Yeah, it was yesterday. Oh well, how does the, how are the personalities mesh? You know what I mean with Brady and Mendoza? Because I do think for Tom, he's acutely aware of how important the locker room is. You know what I mean? Like in the makeup of the locker room and how the quarterback fits in the locker room. And so nobody knows more about that than Tom Brady, spending, you know, 24 seasons and in NFL locker room or 23 seasons in NFL locker rooms and and with two franchises and with different types of guys, different makeup of teams, all that different stuff. So I think that that would probably be in my mind, at least the last box to check. Because I think when you get to those final couple zooms, my guess would be that's going to be guys like Clint and Genoco actually installing the offense with Mendoza. I had a call with a head coach in the league, right after the season. And oftentimes if I'm going to talk to a coach like right after the season, getting involved, and you have quarterback need, maybe not taking one, but going to do the due diligence. And he said one, the first things he did with Mendoza was, he's like, I saw the interviews. He's like, you know, turn the season. He's like, I'm not diving into these guys. I see some of the games, but I see some of the interviews and he's a different cat, right? Got a little bit like the Cursons type, you know? Like just happy to be alive and it comes off as different than your normal quarterback interview as we've all seen. Yeah. So I actually, the first thing I did, I wasn't even watching. He's like, I put on some tape and I was watching after incompletions, interceptions, him getting hit, big plays, him taking off running. I was watching, he goes, I, Legitimate, he goes, I'll go back and like really dive into the, you know, the third, the third and sevenths and the, the cut ups, right? He's like, I was just, I just spent like 30, 40 minutes watching the country boys and the city guys. Yeah. Do one of them interact, which I thought was interesting. Do one of them interact more with Fernando? And he's like, every single time the reaction is exactly what you want from both, from both. If you've been in a locker room, you know, you've got, you've got this group and you got that group and everyone's like this. But maybe sometimes, so that was fascinating to me. That is really interesting because that shows a guy who can break down those walls, right? Yes, yes, and that everyone, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter what your background is. So Tyson Simpson was never involved because I feel like that's become kind of the story of this path, whether manufactured or not. Yeah, I don't, I don't, I don't think so. You know, like doesn't mean they didn't study him. I mean, he was part of their study in the fall, you know? Like when they were going through all of it, I don't know that he was ever really a factor here. But it would have been, sounds like it would have been a Mendoza more. Yeah, and like, this was not, I mean, for the Raiders, like, I think the, I think the, the, the risk you take was talking about the Raiders, like in, and their processes that, like if you say, like, oh, yeah, like, they had a pretty good idea of which way they were going in January, it makes it look kind of like the last three months have been a coronation. And that's not really the case either, you know? It's more like they did so much work in the fall. And they were so far down the line that it was like, okay, like we have an idea of where we're going here. It doesn't mean we're ruling anything out, you know? Of course, there's the opportunity to trade the pick that would come along and, and, and, and those calls get made and everything else. But, you know, I think as much as anything else, it was just, I think conviction that this is the best guy. And look, like I would say this too, Todd, like two years ago, it's exactly what the Bears did with Caleb Williams. Like the Bears were trying to wrap up their process with Caleb Williams by the beginning of March. Like they actually initially had his 30 visit scheduled for the day they got back from the combine because they wanted to have it done so they could start installing the offense with them, right? So, um, the Bears in a similar spot, like, you know, it was just kind of like, okay, like we need to, we need to get this rolling early and get ourselves in a position where, um, we know what we're doing, you know? Right. And, um, you know, so, you know, sometimes because so much the public doesn't really dial into this stuff the way that you do or I do just some degree, not nearly as much. But, but the public isn't really dialed into this stuff, I don't, you know, until like March, it's like, it looks like, oh well, did they, is this just them like, you know, you know, the brown on the guy and it's, there's a whole lot more to it than that. So, it's transition now. I, that's, um, but that's, that's information that, like, the brain, like the brain, you just had to call it yesterday. And, and, you know, the, the process, I think the whole thing is fascinating. Um, I find, here's what I find interesting is, we, you transition to pick number two, right? Yep. With the jets. Early in the process, I had conversations with people that I trust that are kind of dialed in. And it's always been this debate, do you take the burden hand or do you take the, what could be like a cyborg, you know, like a Parsons, talking about Bailey, who's the proven pass rusher. You know what you're getting. Not great versus the run. You're going to have to kind of work through that, kind of develop that part of him, scheme it a little bit. Um, but at the end of the day, these pass rushers are getting paid. Second most amount of money behind quarterbacks in the league. Not to be great run, run defenders. It's to get after the quarterback and get home. And that's what he does better than any other pass rusher and, and, and player defensive player in this draft. Yep. Then you get our Valries and you look at like man, he just started rushing the quarterback. Yeah. It was a first year as a starter. He picked up everything Patricia asked. We had Scott Goldman on from AIQ, works for the lot of teams for like the, it's, they call it intelligence testing, but it's kind of like reaction and what they can process and he said he like our Val is like like a rare bird when it comes to his ability to multifunction and, and like to be able to place them off ball. And so all those things in mind. Couple months ago, my information was they're going to take Bayley, right? Because it's proven. You know what he is. Even though our, our Val may, may have a higher upside. But then you started all the information, you know, I even talked to someone in the organization and they talked about how we traded everything's 2027. Yeah. We traded, we actually made that deal with, was it Indy? I forget what, no, Dallas was Indy. The Cowboys were like that. They offered a, they offered a first year. No, it was the Cowboys, the Quinn and Willie and William Towell. When it was chose to, they chose to have a 27 first round or a 26 second round instead of the other way around it. That was in the negotiation, right? Initially it was, you could take a first this year and they, they worked to get that for next year. Right. So you started to think, well, maybe they take 2026, develop, Reese and then you kind of, that's, that's what you started to hear. Now it's back to and it's not like not, not really a secret. It sounds like if, if the information's right, that David Bayley is going to be the guy at number two. Is that where you're hearing what, what do you have for? Yeah, I actually talked to a couple of teams that almost talked to, like, it was a fate of compley. Now we'll see. You know, the information gets better, a little better, as you get closer to the draft and these guys are coming out of their meetings. But, you know, there's an interesting, like I would say way to tie this to Aaron Glend's job security too, you know, is that, you know, like I think if you look at R.V.L. Reese's a little bit more of a project and a little bit more of a, he's going to be pretty good for you right away. But, you know, you may have to wait a year or two to get the best out of him. Versus like David Bayley is out of the box going to be a really good pass rusher for you. I'm not saying Aaron Glend's doing this to save his job, but does, do you naturally look at that? We need somebody to help us now, you know what I mean? And we need to make sure that, and not even just a job security thing, it's like continuing to engage the locker room where you're able to get them better results because you're playing better as a team. Let me ask you this. There's some, I've listened to the way that people talk about David Bayley, and it hit me the other day, that it kind of reminds me a little bit about how people talked about Eden Hutchinson. And, so Hutchinson was like just a demon as a past rusher plays really hard, explosive, but like does he have the, the frame to hang out, to play against the right-legged linear. - Yep, yep. - And I don't know that it's not great for his athletic disease. He's not one of those like, redirect quickness, like outside, he's got a little bit of tightness tall. So yeah, but it's so, I mean, like my gosh, does he find a way to get home and you say, "Glan had it, but when he's healthy." - Glenn had Hutchinson. So like I just sort of look at that and like how the lions over those years really had trouble finding past rushers outside of Hutchinson. And if they didn't have Hutchinson, God, what would they have done to get after the past for the last few years, it was really wound up being perfect for them that that that was the guy they really needed. And they struggled when he was out, you know what I mean? Like so, you're talking about an organization that just walked away from Germaine Johnson and Quinn and Williams and, you know, yes, you want the guys gonna be best for you for the next five years, but based on the position that they're in, you know, as a coaching staff and then, you know, how that relates to Darren Moji, who's probably got a little bit more rope than A.G. has, does that push you in the direction of Bailey, you know? So I mean, I actually had a really interesting conversation with someone who knows, let's put it that way. And I was just, I was curious about, so what are the just gonna do if it was a follow up to what I just told you? Like I got the information that, like, the organization is so committed to as a couple others are the 2027 quarterback class. And so my follow up was, okay, if that's kind of the mindset, who's quarterbacking this year? And like what are they looking for? And the answer was someone that's gonna be competitive enough that the fans don't, don't riot. Yeah, they went and they went enough games and there's, and someone like, someone's got some leadership, some ability to come in, kind of hit the ground running, but also someone who's not gonna win too many games where they have to attack as too many picks to go up and get a guy, you know? And so, and then, like, it felt like moments later, you know, they get the perfect guy. - Gee. - And, and Jean, Jean Smith. And so that kind of tracks with, we got it, we can't, this year can't be like an NBA tank that I'm already seeing on Getters Morning. They're complaining about like, how do we change the draft lottery? And, you know, like, yeah, beat that level in that market and things and heads aren't gonna roll. So, dude, you're speaking to the choir on that too, 'cause I just think, or preaching to the choir, like I just think, like, a lot of people look at those sorts of things that are like, well, why don't they just throw in the towel and this is, it doesn't really, that doesn't work in football. - You know what I mean? Like, you can't-- - Unless you force someone to stop playing, because, I mean, you're playing, I mean, how many of you, no, but how many of your players, you have to think about it from this perspective. If you're trying to understand the way a coach or GM thinks, how much of your roster has no idea what team they're gonna be on next year? - 80%. - A lot. - I go through that free agent tractor all the time when I'm looking at team needs and it's like, there's like 15 guys that, this is their control. - No, they're on the team next year, right? - And so that every game is a tape, right? - And so the other 31 teams. And so, and that's the thing about it is that, most of the great majority of your locker room doesn't give a shit about your three-year plan. Like, you have to sell to them, like, I'm gonna put you in a position to succeed as a team and maybe more importantly as an individual so you can continue your career right now. Like, I'm gonna do that for you right now. And that's what Aaron Glenn and Frank Reich and all those guys are facing now is like, all right, like, they had their year where it didn't go very well and there were all kinds of issues that first year. And now are these questions going into year two and God is the heat gonna be turned up if they're O and five or O and six. - Yes. - Like, how do you keep the team on board? And I think the reality of it is, like, if you're just thinking about it from the perspective of the people in that building and it's like, and look, the people in Detroit speak so highly of Aaron Glenn as a leader and what he's capable of being a head coach. And if you really believe in what AG is trying to build, you wanna give them the tools to try to establish that in New York. - Right. - And if the second pick of the draft is a project, then that becomes a little harder, you know? And so there's a real life component to this where it's like, we have to find ways to provide hope for our players where our players know, you know, not only is there a light at the end of the tunnel in 27 or 28, but we're gonna be competitive this year and we're gonna give you a chance to compete at the highest level this year. - You know, and Bailey probably does that more so than that. - And that's the thing. It's like, I'm fascinated by a race because I think that there's like, and you and I have talked about this, that new genre of player that's like this hybrid. I think Michael was sort of the forerun or not that we'd never seen it before, but, you know, like the Mike Eparsons, Jihad Campbell, Jalen Walker, Abdual Carter, guys who played on the line and off the line, you need to have a plan for those guys. You know, it sounds great. Like, oh, you can do everything. Yeah, but what is he going to do for you, you know? And, you know, they've got, you know, I think with David Bailey, at least it sounds to me from the people I talk to, more like, yeah, everybody knows what they're gonna do with him. - Yeah. - There's no mystery in what you're gonna do with him. Whereas with the R-Vel race, there is a bigger question when it comes to that. - Well, we're on R-Vel race. So now the player that a week ago or two weeks ago, maybe you thought wouldn't be available at number three for the Cardinals. The Cardinals also have a needed offensive tackle. I'm also told the Cardinals are hoping the phones ring and could maybe move down and acquire an additional pick. They have a quarterback need that people are talking about. Maybe they trade back into the first round or they sit there at what, 33 or 34 and go tie Simpson there. What do you think, if this is how it plays out, we both believe strongly that it will. Is it R-Vel race at three? - I think so. I just think it's a big need for them and look. Like I think, you know. - I do too. - R-Vel race would have been, I think R-Vel race would have been a really good fit for Jonathan Ganon and it's easy to forget that his defense is still there. Nick Rallis was held over as the defensive coordinator. So that's good point. - They're effectively gonna be running the same defense they were running before. We've seen Jonathan Ganon and that defense and Nick was there in Philly when they had to be creative with a guy like Hassan Ritek and move a guy around. So I think that there's definitely a place for it. Connor Orr, who I podcast with at SI, I work with at SI, did bring up a good point and I hadn't even thought of it this way. The Cardinals have sort of failed with hybrids over the last 10 years and his ownership bring that up at all because wasn't Sabin Collins kind of that way. Wasn't I? - I think the SI is definitely was not the same as the Opal Ambal but is a same. - He's an eight overall pick. - Right, so like is there, it's different guys in charge, right? But does that become a little bit of a factor there? You know where, you know, they took two guys in the first half of the first round that were sort of these hybrids like, what exactly do you want them to be long term? And they both sort of failed, you know? Like so that's the one caveat I'd put on all of this is that is that in any way any sort of factor? And they've had success over the years with hybrids too. I mean, I think honey badger was probably a good example of it in a different way, right? But, you know, I just think it's an interesting element to the decision of whether or not you take a guy like this. - Does Reese being there make add to the trade value? Because it feels like from where I sit, it would. - Yeah, even though we're talking about Bailey, I mean, I guess it depends on like how big you see the drop off between Reese and Bane, right? Like whoever your next pass rusher is, I think Bane will probably be the next guy. And Bane doesn't fit anybody. - Have you heard anything about Arizona moving out? - I think everyone, I think most of the teams, obviously not counting Vegas. I think most of the teams in the top five would seriously consider moving out. Maybe every other thing. - You heard of anyone that is there anyone that you're hearing? - No, not yet. Not yet, not yet. I think that'll crystallize as we get closer. But, you know what I think the problem with that is right now is that you don't have like the prototypes, right? Like you don't have the miles Garrett, Julius Peppers, Jadevi and Clowney defensive end. You don't have the Julio Jones, AJ Green, Calvin Johnson, receiver, you don't have Joe Alt left tackle. - It's hard enough pill to swallow. I promise you, knowing that if I draft Jeremiah Love and we'll get to pick four in a minute, he's what, the seventh, eighth highest paid running back in the league in a position that I don't want to be spending that much money. It's hard enough to draft a safety in the top 10. We've seen great guy Hamilton goes what, 14 overall I think it was. - Yeah. - 12, yeah. Ramsey falls to what, 18. So it's hard enough to use a top 10 pick on off ball linebacker, safety running back, you know? - Right. - But the two best players that draft might be running back in a safety, you know? - Yeah. - Yeah. - And maybe the third one could be an off ball linebacker converting to edge that you're not 100% sure of. We just talked about that with our values. - Yeah. - And I would argue maybe the fourth best player this entire drive. or one of the top four players in this entire drift, I've got him number two over my board. I wouldn't take him number two overall, but I've got sunny styles as the number two player in this show. I am more convicted in sunny styles than any other player outside of Jeremiah Love that he's going to be an absolute sensation in the league because of how multiple he is. But to trade up for, yeah, said safety, off-ball linebacker, conversion player running back is, I don't know how you can stomach that. Yeah. I mean, so let me ask you this then, would the 23 Lions be an interesting case study to look at what they did because they got killed for taking Jemira Gibbs and Jack Campbell in the first? That was one of my favorite fights to push that one because I just, I love their draft and everyone was just murdering it. Yeah, they got killed for it and like, you look back at it and I'm like, Brad Holmes, I mean, I love the simplicity of it. They're the best players. Gibbs was a home run at 12 and Jack Campbell's first team all pro this year at 18 and then even in the second round, they went to Sam Mapporta and branch who are both like high-end players. Yeah. So I mean, there is like that piece of it too where it's just like, do you take a pass, Russia, you have questions or reservations about, right? Or do you take a safety or a linebacker or a running backer? Damn sure it's going to be really, really good. So it brings us to pick four. If it, yeah, real quickly. If it's not our Val Riese at three because of maybe some of the reasons we just talked about the conversion player, their history. I mean, you look kind of like Maui Noah then. Maui Noah, yeah, that's where I would lean. I hear my question with that. So like, you always try to look at where these guys are coming from, right? So Michael of Flora is coming from the Rams. The Rams a few years ago really leaned in on two areas and said, we are going to just keep stocking these areas. Those two areas were offensive skill and defensive front. Front. Yeah. And if you see like this year's sort of a correction to that and the way they've gone in on corners and going and trading for Trent McDuffy and signing Jaylen Watson. But for a long time, for a few years there, they really focused on drafting and developing offensive skill guys. So that's Kyron Williams, Blake Korum, Terrence Ferguson last year, Pukin Akua, and then on the defensive front, the amount of guys they just, hey, keep feeding it. Like so it was it was Braden Fisk. It was Byron Young. It was Jared Verst. It was Kobe Turner. Like they continued to feed that. And I do look at that like the Rams have sort of had an approach over the years and Mike LaFlor is also coming from San Francisco with Kyle Shanahan where he spent a bunch of years where those two teams outside of the left tackle have invested a ton on the offensive line. Like they've picked their spots. But you haven't seen them invest. They you seen them try to get away with less on the offensive line at times. And they already have Paris Johnson at left tackle. So do they double down on the offensive line with that high end? Yeah, it would be a little bit against the way it would be a little bit against the philosophies that Michael Flores has been most exposed to. Yeah, I tend to agree. And I just think there's a different grade. And I think Maui knows the best tackle in this class. I think he's if you take him, I don't know, 7, 8, 9, 10, that range, I'm like good, but not one of those other players are still on the board. And our bell Reese is one of those other players. The McStay show is brought to you by Fandall. Do you guys know that you can bet on the NFL draft with Fandall? That's right. You can bet on everything, including which team will draft which player over unders on draft positions. What position a team takes first and of course, who's going number one overall? I don't like those odds there. Basically, if it's draft related, you can probably bet on it. I'm just telling you right now, the one I'm most fascinated by is Ty Simpson. Where does he land? He's definitely going in the first round, everyone says, I can't find a team right now that will take him in the first round. Arizona, if you ask me right now, that could be the team that's probably in the pole position. But also the Rams. There's a connection there. If you can get the good odds on Ty Simpson and the Rams, that's something to investigate. Okay, so if you want the chance to turn your mock draft into some real cash, Fandall is your place to get in on the action. Just open up the Fandall app. You're officially on the clock. 21 plus select states or 18 plus DC, Kentucky or Wyoming. Gambling problem, call 1-800-Gamber, call 1-888-789-777-77 or visit ccpg.org/chap in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Zippercruder. Out of everyone in the draft, I'm keeping a close eye on a couple quarterbacks that nobody's talking about. Cole Payton from North Dakota State, Taylin Green from Arkansas, day two quarterback prospects that could change your entire organization. They've got developmental upside. They're not where they need to be right now. But if they hit, they could be stars in this league. The whole deal of scouting is finding difference makers, right? Having even one standout player that can make a world of difference on or off the field. It's the finding part that's hard. If you're hiring, you know the struggle. It can take months and thousands of resumes before you find what you're looking for. Unless you use Zippercruder. Try it for free at zippercruder.com/mix-shay. That zippercruder.com/mix-shay. Along with its smart matching technology, Zippercruder just added a new feature to make the hiring process even smoother. It puts qualified candidates who've also shown interest in your role at the top of your list. So you can talk to them first. Plus, you can see why those candidates are interested in their own words. Cut through the standard and get to the standouts with Zippercruder. Four out of five employers who post on Zippercruder get a quality candidate within the first day. And now you can try it for free at zippercruder.com/mix-shay. Meet your match on Zippercruder. I had an interesting conversation with, in its publics, this one was, we had it on the show, Mike Borgonzi, the general manager who's of the Tennessee Titans. He was with the Chiefs for a long time, right? And I wouldn't share this unless it was on our show. But I gleamed from it some interesting stuff. I brought up this because I've had this theory for a long time. If you go back and study, whether it's back to Polly and with, they got Peyton Manning and everything was about getting closers and defense that we got to get. And I talked to Bill when he came to work to DSPN. He's like, once you get your quarterback, he can make up for 10 other guys since. Right. You've got him, there's no, there's no Peyton Manning on defense. So we've got to load up on that side. And I've watched the Eagles over the years. I've watched the Packers. I've watched the Ravens. I've watched Kansas City, which I brought to his attention. I had to kind of remind him the year after they got my homes. And they were sure that he was the guy. They had six draft picks. Because they had to trade up to go get Patrick. And all six were defensive players, right? And so all these really good high-end organizations have shifted the focus. So I asked them the question about KM Mord. You got your guy. You bring in Brian Dable, who I can't think of a better person to develop. I'm especially knowing, having the conversations with Brian. I think publicly it was known how much he liked KM. And then he loved Jackson Dart as well. He was pushing and he was driving that bus to send all the compensation. He told a funny story, Borghazi, did the Dable corner to him at a pro day. And was like, listen, I'm telling you, Abdul Carter, man. What a great player. Yeah. You're going to want to take him and trade back. We'll give you a lot here. Anyway, with all that said, I said, so your mentality to kind of fall in the footsteps of what you've seen and really focus on the defense. And I wasn't even asking about this fourth pick. But he's like, yeah, you got to, he's like, go back every single one of those. Bill had Marvin Harrison, Bill had Eger and James. And we had weapons. We had Tyree. He's like, it just so happened that it was time to reshift the focus to the defensive side. Yeah. I'm saying all this because I remember, Shepter came out and was so adamant about, they're not taking Jeremiah, I love it for. Prior to that, I had Jeremiah to love mock there. I kind of dug into my information. I know Brian pretty well. I know how influential he can be when he's, when he's a dog with a bone in that draft room. And I just, I thought Jeremiah love would be not just the rushing element, but also as a pass catcher. And even Borgons, he was like protection, play callers, and play makers. And so now I'm back to, I don't know if that information was accurate or not. I just think Jeremiah loves the best thing as an organization you can do for Cam Ward. So I think it's interesting the way that the running back value thing has swung back around too. I thought it was really interesting two years ago when you had Derek Henry, Sequan Barclay and Josh Jacobs out there in the market. And it just so happened that it was the Ravens, the Eagles, and the Packers that signed those guys. Yeah, I remember thinking at the time before those guys ever played it down for those teams. That's interesting. interesting that three teams that are not, there aren't idiots running these teams. Like, these are established organizations all went all in at the very top of the veteran running back market. And basically I think what they were saying to everybody is this position has been devalued to a point where now it's a value, you know? Because St. Juan Barclay cost you, if you're Philly, what Darnel Mooney cost at Lano, which is crazy to think about, right? But that's the reality of it. And so I think the value of the running back has been reconfigured to some degree. Like you mentioned Borgons, he like, Borgos old team in Kansas City, where did they just do? Like, oh, Andy Reed doesn't invest in running back. They signed Kenneth Walker. At the very top of the mark of the Super Bowl MVP, at the very top of the running back market. So, you know, I do think, I mean, to me, like, I just, it's hard for me not to connect this to what Todd Gurley made for meant for Jared Goff when he broke out in under McVeigh in '17, but Zeke Elliott meant to Dak Prescott in 2016 when he was starting as a rookie in Dallas. I mean, even if you want to take this back to Dayball, what St. Juan was able to do for Daniel Jones and how important St. Juan was to steady in DJ. And I think there's so much of it. Like, to me, like, the value of guys like that, like, this is the, this to me is the new mold for the running back, right? It's, you can play all three downs the way Marshall fought could. You can run between the tackles like Adrian Peterson. Now, that's not to say everyone of these guys is a combination of two, you know, but like, there are elements of both and a lot of these guys now that wind up going in the top 10. If you look at the seven or eight guys, we've gone that high over the last dozen years. And so what does that guy do for a quarterback? To me, he gives you easy completions. So that's part of it. But maybe more important, he gets you in second and sixth and third and two more often, right? And like, and you're on schedule. And so as you know, Todd and, and, and I think the easiest way to put this to the listener is, if you're in third and 11, the offensive playbook is like this and the defensive playbook is like that, right? If you're in second and sixth and third two, then the offensive playbook is like this and the defensive playbook is like that, you know? - Yeah. - Sorry to the people listening. Can't see my, my, my hand motions, but basically. - I think they can insinuate. - Yeah. - Effectively, effectively what I'm telling people is, if you're in second and sixth and third and two, your offensive playbook is wide open. And that's gonna make things so much easier on you in developing your young quarterback. And so like I just see like somebody like Jeremiah Love and it's like, he's gonna help you put points on the board. He's gonna create easy completions for your quarterback. He's gonna keep you on schedule. He can affect so many different parts of your offense. He makes your offensive line better because you're in less obvious passing situations when he's in the field, you know? And so like I just-- - The average over 10, we're looking at the scouting report right now. - Yeah. - It's the ringer.com/mixha. Have you got none of this tool yet, Burke? - I need to get on it, yeah. - Get on it today. - All right. - It's your homework assignment. We're proud of it. We're excited. - The next time I get on, I'll be fully versed in it. I promise. - But he averaged over 10 yards per catch too, which like I do-- - Right. - We ripped through all these running back pride. - I mean, it's the point-- - It's the point, - I'm very few average over 10 yards per catch in college. - Not to cut in, but like it's to the point where when I ask scouts now about Giderian price, they're like, well, we didn't see him catch the ball a lot, but it's not really his fault because they had just-- - I love it. - Right. - And we like, that was just what was best for the team, was to throw this back, not this back. You know, so we don't know that he can't do it. It's just they didn't ask him to do it 'cause they had somebody who was so freaking good at it. And Jeremiah, I love meeting the chance to do it as much. - So that leads me to this 'cause I feel like we're all kind of in that, and I'm not saying it's definitive and who knows what happens in the next couple weeks. You're talking about Tom Brady just meeting with Mendoza yesterday in Zoom, like there's a lot that can still happen. But if these four picks kind of play out the way we think they could, I think one of the most intriguing decisions with a new head coach in John Harbaugh, with an organization that's trying-- And I've talked to so many GMs over the years, like their first draft pick, you know, with either with a new coach, or they take over an organization. There's a-- it's not just picking the right guy, like he's gonna help our team as a player. It's picking the right guy to kind of set a tone. And so I'm sitting there with the Giants and we've got a bunch of tone setters and really good players. I don't think it's going to be Caleb Downs, but I want to get your information. I think it honestly will come down to two guys. And you tell me if you're hearing different. I think sunny styles would be my pick. And the Ohio State linebacker. And then Maui Noah, who we talked about, the big physical right tackle. Who moves well, but he's a right tackle, you know, if you're doing the old traditional. He's a right tackle type who played his career at right tackle at Miami. I think he comes down to those two. And I'm curious if you're hearing anything or what your thoughts are. - So like I think styles makes a lot of sense for them. Makes a lot of sense for Washington. So I think this is right in the range of where styles goes. You know, in the off ball linebacker's been a really important piece for John Harbour over the years. They've always had a really good one, right? - Is bringing in Tremaine Edmonds. Does that affect, you know-- - I don't think so. - Effective. - No, I don't think so. I think it's more like that's been a bedrock guy for John Harbour over the years, whether it's Rhoquan Smith. - Yeah. - You know, obviously CJ Mosley, Ray Lewis, at the beginning of his time in Baltimore, he's usually had a bedrock guy there. The one thing with Maui Nella here, and I agree, they have to get the offensive line right. But from what I understand, they just recent Tremaine Illuminar. - I know. - I know. - I know. And like my understanding on Illuminar is he sort of views himself as a tackle, you know? So would he be willing to go inside the guard or do you look at it as we'll move Maui Nella inside for the time being, knowing that he's eventually gonna play tackle, you know? - Right. - There'd be some moving pieces here. Downs is interesting to me though, because like just, like again, like I'm looking at John Harbour's history, which is the best guy you can have in these situations. And when he and Wink Martin Dale re-imagined the Ravens defense back in 2018 when Wink got promoted to defensive coordinator there, one of the biggest pieces of it was we wanna play defense like other teams play offense. In other words, we wanna dictate terms to the offense. And the way to do that for them was, we wanna be as flexible as we possibly can right up until a snap. And the biggest piece of that for John Harbour was having a heavy safety. That was having Eric Weddle there, right? And then they go from Weddle and then that winds up falling on Kyle Hamilton. And then you see some of the guys who came out of there, Mike McDonald winds up in Seattle. They draft Nick even worried to be that guy, right? And you look at Jesse Mentor and how much they put on Derewin James to be that guy, Los Angeles. And so so much of a key, and that defense has become one of the premier schemes in the league and you see other teams trying to replicate it. And obviously John brings to Mark Denard Wilson with them to run it. I just think of the football IQ at Derewin James and Kyle Hamilton and Eric Weddle and Nikki Eamon-Worry. Elite, elite, elite for all of them, but Eamon-Worry, but Eamon-Worry had traits that, yeah, right. And Eamon-Worry is gone, I'm not saying bad, but maybe not quite the other level of the one. Yeah. What's Caleb Downs number one trait? Oh, it's absolutely. He's truly one of the smartest players I've ever evaluated. And so like that. And that's the two, like to me, like that styles and downs, like our green dots for you. You know, like they're like they're both cable being the green dot on your defense and probably early in your career. And so like both of them make sense for me with the giants. You know, now we know again, like they have to get the offensive line, right? That's such a huge part of what they're going to do. You certainly see a scenario where just wanting to make sure the offensive line gets fixed could wind up winning the day. But I do think like just the football IQ of the two Ohio State guys, of downs and styles and what they were able to do and what was asked of them last year, playing for the Patricia, is going to really endear them to John Harbana staff. I think we know every, I think with Cleveland at 6, transitioning here, we know it's not quarterback. I think we know in a perfect world, they would get the best combo. It picks 6 and 24 of wide receiver and an offensive tackle. We talk a lot about combo picks. You know, whether it's a first and second round pick, in this case, it's two first round picks. Yeah. How you have to kind of assess the situation at each position that you're looking at, right? I get it. I get it that Spencer Fano is the is the soup de jour, right? And I get the relationship, you know, and I get the emphasis they put on the offensive line. And quite frankly, I applaud Andrew Barry. I really do like, let's fix what needs to be fixed up front first before we start, you know, talking about a tie Simpson or whatever it is. I just don't know that he's worth the six overall pick. I think. and L. Tate is worth the six overall pick, but then you run the risk if you're playing the combo game of, so who's left when we get there? And I'm looking at it and I'm saying, well Cleveland really needs a left tackle if we're being honest, right? And he's got the traits in terms of the athleticism Fano does, but the short arms, and he's played, I think 11 starts his freshman year and then the last two seasons has been a right tackle. Lomo, who will be available later in the first round, has played left tackle, freeing. I don't know if he'll still be there at 24, Monroe freeing the Georgia tackle, has played left tackle. What are you hearing on this? Like the Tate versus Fano, or possibly even Maui Noah, if it's one of the Ohio State defensive players at five for the Giants. So do you think like, I mean, I don't know, do you look at this and say, if Maui Noah is there, it's becomes academic for you. It's easy for you. Who's playing, so where are we playing them? I guess right tackle, because they just paid the guards, right? Like so they just paid, they just paid Tevin Jenkins, they just paid Johnston. So I would think like that you're probably paying playing, whoever comes in, I would guess right tackle. Now, I mean, what do you do it to on Jones? This is a question. I think I've got so many moving pieces. I just feel like for them, if this is me, right? Yep. If there's a offensive lineman worthy of going there, like I think you really have to consider it regardless of position and just figure it out, because they've had such a hard time getting there. So and trying to fix that area. And obviously the Gedric will thing and what happened there. I think they had a cascading effect over the years. So like I look at it like, do I have a better chance of getting a really good receiver or this is just to your point, right? Or a really good tackle at 24. Am I just crossing my fingers that that that Freelings going to be there at 24? If I'm if I'm taking car and I'll take it six. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's sort of becomes the problem, right? I think it's going to happen to this wide receiver class in general, to be honest with you. I think there's a bunch of good receivers. I really don't have a pool. Yeah. I think Tate is the is the I don't want to say the only true first rounder. But he's the guy that it's like it for me stamp him, you know? And and and six isn't too high. Anything below 10 is a steal, right? McKay lemon. There's there's some things that like yeah, I'd like to get them later in the first. Right. Jordan Tyson. There's some things and he's one of the most polarizing players in this draft class. There was a lot of I talk to teams that don't like him at all. Like the thing. I've heard I've talked to teams recently that have set that have second second round picks. I've had talked to teams that are like, yeah, I'd love to have a lemon like late first or but I've also talked to teams. I think with lemon is like I mean, just to me, it's like like Tate seems to be the one that the people are most there's a better consensus on if that makes sense, right? Yes. With lemon, I think it's more a conversation about his ceiling. And I think with with Tyson, it sort of feels like it's more of a question about his makeup, right? Yeah. That's the way it feels to me and the durability and yeah, I mean, I personally think I think there might be some teams that think Omar Cooper is the second best receiver in the draft. So, you know, I guess that may sound pretty easy. And I think it's going to be a tougher decision for the Rams at 13 than people maybe think. And I think, I think both Makai and Cooper will are great fits for what Sean wants to do if they want to go and receiver there. But I've also talked to teams that have a second round grade on Cooper too. Right. So, my point is we've got seven offensive tackles. We got a slew of edge rushers. And then we've got those like 11 guys at different positions that are kind of at the top of the board, right? So, it's going to be interesting to see with those wide receivers. It feels like Washington at seven is going to wind up kind of benefiting that one of these great players is going to feel like if Jeremiah love doesn't go four or five, which we believe he will, he could be sitting there. If Caleb Downs doesn't go, I think he's the parachute for Washington. I think Sonny Styles probably is the most likely to land there. But styles would make a ton of sense for Dan for Dan Quinn, like the big, long athletic, like, I mean, you know, like basically whatever what Pete Carroll's defenses have always loved and lined backers guys who just can cover ground, you know, like to me Sonny Styles would be a perfect fit for Washington. And then I hear I think edge could be in play. The Saints are kind of in, you know, Ruben Bain would make sense to the Saints at eight. Yeah. Let me ask you this. I think I think Delane is started to play to show up in this area. I think Delane and McCoy are going to know. I think no, Delane could go as early as eight. I actually think some teams now have McCoy higher than Delane. And I think and I know teams have Delane higher than even the public perception. Right. I think he's could be gone. I think both those guys could be gone in the first 12 texts. Oh, I think they will be. Yeah. I'll be sure. Because I was looking at last night like since Cincinnati, we always said they just, they have needs all over their defense. They really, if you look at it, they really need a cornerback or an edge, right? Right. So that's picked 10. I don't, I will get to the chiefs in a second. We can kind of end on the chiefs. I don't think the chiefs would go corner back there even though they had the departures because I think they have other things in mind, but we can talk about that. They also trust, I mean, once you snug it there and we'll get back to them, I think they really trust the ability of Steve Spagnola. Totally agree. Develop that position. You know, and I think it's been bears out. It's why it's, it was a huge factor in why they let Trump. McDuffee go. Yeah. McDuffee, A plus person, A plus player, all of it, but they, you know, they had to make choices and one of the things that was really, I mean, between what they have with Steve Spagnola and Dave Merritt, like their ability to develop the corner position, like they feel really strongly like we can find guys to play that position. It's an important position, but, you know, like if we're looking at investing in receivers or adress, like that's one place where we feel good we can get guys later on and develop them. So, I'm looking at this with New Orleans at eight, which I, I think Bain is the possibility, but I honest, I'm with you. I think cornerback makes, it seems to be where they could go. I've heard both Delaan and McCoy, so we'll say. I think it's absolutely, now it becomes interesting if Bain sitting there at 10 is that their edge and it certainly could be, but they also could take the other corner. I think Miami at 11 could take a corner. I know Dallas would love to have one, but I don't think either of them gets to 12. I actually don't know that either of them gets to 11 is the point I'm trying to make. How much does McCoy not playing last year affect how you look at them? Teams were scared to death before that pro day. Yeah. Well, that, why isn't it, you know how it goes? Right. This is what you do for a living and you've, as dialed in as anyone I know, like who he's on competing. And he's got that agent. And in that agent, like, and what would happen with, uh, with Schmar last year? These are the conversations about, and so now we're going to deal with the, uh, deal with that. And I haven't seen compete. He hasn't competed since, since January, since last January, like of 2025, you know, so like we're talking 12, we're talking 14 months, you know, and then he goes and runs in the four threes. And it wasn't, the four threes is great. But from people I've talked to, it's like, it was, it was a, like an epiphany or a reminder. Oh my gosh. The way he worked out, the way he moved in his, the position drills, that 20, 23 tape and 2024 tape. Um, and we've seen other, like Derek Stingley kind of mailed it in his last year and, and, um, so it was a concern. I'm not saying it's not. And it varies from team to team. But I think, I think right now the, the stock market is like, you know, with, with McCoy. Yeah. And I think it's interesting. It's interesting with McCoy because I think a big, he's somebody like for the reasons you laid out, the process was more important for him than a lot of other guys in that, like I think a lot of people looked at him as like, this is a raw man cover corner. Like, and you aren't sure how much more he can do. And so the testing, the interviews, all that different stuff, I think we're going to be ways for teams to try to figure out where his capacity was for all of the other stuff. Whereas I think with the lane, it was interesting talking to people about the lane because like, he wasn't as good at Virginia Tech, right? Like, yeah. And there were some questions. It was like, sometimes he looks like, lazy's not the word. But I'm like, looks easy. A lot of times. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, is he that fast? And then he runs for three eight or whatever it was. And it's like, no, he's just that smooth. So I guess, I think both these guys have helped one guy. Let's just boil it down real quickly. One guy is very clearly. They're both fast. One guy is like your prototypical oily hips, man to man, sticky coverage. That's McCoy. He's a better athlete if you're just testing the athlete. The other guy is one of the more instinctive corners you'll ever see, but also really fast and also really good in coverage. His ability to switch from man to man to zone from one plate to the next. And like the best. The Bella check, the Bella check Sabin principle of like, if you ever listen to them talk about DBs, like their biggest trait is when the ball's in the air. How do they react? Is it easy speed or are they, if they're out of phase, and Mansour Delayne is phenomenal in that regard. So again, I think they're both, there's a chance they're both top 10 picks, which leads me to my last question before we get to the final thoughts. If Caleb Downs doesn't go five, is there a chance he falls all the way to 12? And I'll follow up in a second. I know, I know we both have a love for Caleb Downs. Yeah, but I'm just trying to separate what I want to, what's on tape and what you know in Ohio State, great, all that. Is there a scenario he falls to 12? Sure. Like I think that's possible. And he's not the parachute just because like I, it's so much of it comes down to not the player. It comes down to the position and how you value the position. And I mean, for better or worse, there are people who are going to look at him and say, we generally don't take guys that high at that position anyway. Like Kyle Hamilton was the 14th pick in the draft. Jerwin James, I think was 18. Now he had the injury, but yeah, I think it was 18, right? And he had the injury. Hamilton had the slow 40. Right. So you have there, but you have, and Downs doesn't have a 40 and, and he's probably knocked, he's probably a whole five. Right. Like any of you look at those guys like Derwin James and Kyle Hamilton are like, you know, build a player. You don't mean like they're totally right. And like they're like so, so Caleb Downs, like that, the question is for team is going to be like, because they're always looking at comps, right? Like, and I think that that's the big thing is like, for example, like Ruben being right, like I was talking to a team the other day. And we were talking about Ruben, and how you like kind of have to figure it out with him with the arm length. Like do you have to move them around and create matchups and that sort of thing. And so I asked like, is there an example of a guy with, you know, under 31 inch arms that's made it as a past pressure? And they're like, that's the problem. You know, is that like we are like that and that's analytics, right? Like it's like we're looking back through our history and we just can't find one. And, you know, so I think that that's sort of the issue with Downs. It's like how often does a player at his position with his dimensions go that high? And so I think for some teams, that's going to scare them. Well, it's 20, 20 years, 20 years with that arm like, and that's, I don't think people went, but I just read the research 20 years and 20 years from what I, what I read. And I haven't confirmed it, but 20 years since we've had a double digit, digit set guy, right? In the league. Right. Right. So like, and that's where you're looking at with Downs is like, okay, he doesn't have a 40, but you suspect that maybe he's not 4, 4, right? Yep. He is not six foot three, the way that kind of happens and Dirt one James are. He's a great player. But if you're going to make an exception and take a safety in an area where you normally don't take them, then he's not an exceptional athlete. Like the nap, you can now now, now you now you got a bigger picture, you know, question, which is like, can we take him that high? Right. And I think Caleb Downs is going to make probals. Like I, I've never, I don't know if I saw him, I watched him obviously every snap for two years. I'm not a scout. I want to make sure that people know that. I don't know if I ever met saw a miss a tackle. You know, in the game against Miami, I believe he forced two fumbles that just bounced right back and bad luck. Like, yeah, he made game changing plays in that game that like, and you just saw it over and over again. There's a hit against Northwestern, his sophomore year at Riggly, where he ran into the tight end. You might remember this. The tight end who was much bigger than him, six, six, whatever stopped. Yes. I remember watching like that hit. And then you see the hit against Texas that ends the game and it's like, like he is so fundamentally sound and so smart and so dialed in and such. Just a freaking good foot probably the best football player in the draft. I think the thing that teams grapple with with him is more is what you see what you get. Is there no growth? Right. You know, and sometimes that can be a problem for teams on the drafting that high, especially at a position that isn't corner or left tackle or edge rusher or receiver. Last one. And you just talked about his name. If I start to worry about Bane, like just for if you if he doesn't go eight in his corner there and if well, the Chief's going to do something crazy like they typically have, which seems crazy at the time and all of a sudden it's an all pro player. I'm going to throw an idea out of you. Okay. What do you think about Kenyans to theic there? I don't think it's the craziest. I mean, what you hear about Kenyans to theic is like great effort is a blocker, but probably never going to be like your why tight end. He's probably more of an F tight end that you're going to have to move around, right? Yep. And who has a role that role sitting in their office for someone in a year? Right. Like and then who better to scheme up a way with both Kelsey and Sadeek in for the time being? Right. The time being and like I just like look at it and I've just heard so much stuff about Sadeek where it's like you don't see tight ends like this and it almost like I almost feel like there's like a little Shannon Sharp here, you know, like in the sort of play area is like just kind of like rocked up and he's not six six he's six two six three whatever it is. But like he's such a weapon and you can use him so many different ways. And if you have those questions about the receivers, right? Like that there's not a superstar there. Like even Carl Tate who's the most complete guy, but he never had to be the number one guy, right? Like he always like he was never the one that was drawing coverage. Yeah. Jeremiah Smith. Right. You know, so if you have those questions about lemon and about Tyson and about and about Tate and you're looking at and you're saying this Kenyans to D. have a better chance to be a top five tight end than any of these guys have of being a top five receiver. Do you just swallow hard and take him at nine? That's interesting. Yeah, and I think it was a straggler yesterday. I had Jordan Tyson there and I'm talking to people in the league and he even said he's like something. I got a text from a GM and he's, you know, like I don't think he goes to the top 20. So like it's fascinating like beauty, beauties in the eye of the beholder this time of year. But that's that's I think this is cool. This year's draft is like what it lacks and I think what it lacks in like the prototypes, right? Like the guys who are built in the lab to play the position, right? like the Joe Aldert left tackle the Miles Garrett defensive Ed because you don't have that. I think there's so many variables in the top 20 that could, you know, throw a lot of drama as we yeah, I agree. Yeah, and then all of a sudden you're looking at that's the deep there. And it's the other corner back to to the to the Bengals at 10. I mean, Miami could be sitting there with carnal Tate still on the board. The Cowboys could be sitting there with Caleb Downs still on the board, you know. It's interesting. All right, let's finish. We always finish it. Menches with us. I should have I think I did mention in the open. Menches we're in crunch time. So mench mench is grinding out his last handful of players. So we gave him the not the day off the day off of coming on here so he could finish up. But we all this time of year, we try to finish with and I'll get it started so you can brainstorm. I don't like to dump this on you. Don't be surprised if okay doesn't have to be something you're sure of, but just like don't be surprised if I'm kind of I'm going to go with this. We just we talked about the wide receivers, right? And I think the wide receivers are going to go a little bit later as a whole. I think they're going to be pumped back a little bit from what maybe the early thought was where it's like oh, we've got carnal Tate. We've got we've got lemon. We've got Tyson. They're all going to be top 15 picks. And then we've got this the second wave of Denzel Bos or Omar Cooper and Denzel Boston and conception on and all these guys, right? I think it's going to be backed up for all the reasons I just mentioned with the 10 kind of 10, 11, 12 players that belong at the top and the top 15 picks. Then you got offensive tack the remaining offensive tackled and edge rushers. And so to my point, I haven't seen two names mocked recently or anyone in over a month talking about these two names. And I still think they're first rounders because I think the league the league is we just discussed. Values, size, big guys, length and pass rushers and guys that can develop, right? And when you get into the bottom half of the first round, you're talking about playoff teams that maybe don't have this urgency or don't have and that can get can utilize a player in a certain situation as a rookie and develop them because maybe they have a starter, but he's coming up on a contract, whatever it is. Keldrick Falk and Zion Young, Auburn and Missouri respectively are long athletic for their size, play their asses off, but their tapers and Falk didn't have the great year we expected from them this year. So I put on the tape and I was expecting well, maybe he was a contract year. That guy plays his tail off. Zion Young is a certified lunatic and I mean that in the best way is defensive lineman. I think those two guys when we get down into like the mid 20s, teams are going to look and say like I love Cassius Owl. I love Denzel Boston. I love all these other guys wide receivers and some outliers and all that. I just I want an NFL football player. I think those guys could go. So don't be surprised if even though you haven't heard their name, Falk and Zion Young are two guys that come off the board late in the first round. I'll throw it to you a much more. Yeah, so no, that's that's really interesting. You know, the one thing I was I was talking to somebody about Keldrick Falk yesterday and they started describing him. And the name I thought of was was was was Dio Odin-Yingbo who played for the Colts, played for the Bears and I was hurt last year. But like, you know, the point was that it has to be a scheme fit because he's kind of a tweener, right? Like he's bigger than your typical end. Like, do you play him inside? There's not a lot of like I don't think there's a ton of evidence that he can play as a deep tackle, but maybe he can play some past Russian. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like you're projecting a little bit there, but you know, that's interesting. And I do think size becomes a factor. All right. So I've had to think some about this. I would say don't be surprised if there are only two quarterbacks and only two running backs off the board as we go into day three. I think it's possible. Interesting that I don't agree. Huh? So I think I don't totally disagree. I've heard that from obviously. Yeah. Obviously, so we the dies cast. We know that that's he's the first tech. I think Simpson goes somewhere in the second round. And I think that that could be it until you get to the fourth round. There's a trend before there's a trend over the years with this like where quarterbacks go in the first for ton of quarterbacks go in the first round. I don't have the numbers in front of me. I could get them for you. But I did look this up the like last year quarterbacks go in the first round. They don't go in the second and third rounds. Well, why is that? Because they go in the second that usually go early in the second and they're right. Yeah. Right. And the reason why is because you can only play one of them. Right. And so either a guy is going to be a long term. You either view a guy as a long term starter for you. Right. Or you're not taking them in the second or third round. Because there's somebody in another position that will be that can be a nickel corner or number three or four receiver. In other words, it's like there's not like a rotation of three guys to that position. So he's either playing for you or he's not. And if he's if you do view him as a long term starter, you're probably just going to take him in the first round. Right. Right. So that wouldn't surprise me. I've also like the more I've dug in on the running back class, you get the Arkansas kid, you got the two Penn State kids. Like I just outside of outside of the two Notre Dame guys, Jeremiah love at the at the top of the first round and the Giderian price somewhere in probably the first what 50 picks like I just yeah. I don't sense much going on with any of them. I can see that. And in last year's running back class was absolutely sensational. One of the best we've ever had. Go back to like free of the year was a 2017 with McCaffrey and foreign net and all those guys. There's only six running backs taken in the first three rounds. And then 20 of them came off of the board on day three. It's wait for the run to happen at that position. You outlined the quarterback exactly, but wait for the run. It's almost like whole whole like I'm going to get my other guys. And then when it starts to happen, I like five of them and they they all can do something that helps in our rotation. For sure. I think I think you're absolutely good. That won't shock me at all. The hard part for me is this with the quarterbacks. The running backs on onboard the quarterbacks. You know the national list, right? National Blesdo that like put the scouting list right. I think the number one overall grade and take that for what it's worth. But I'm just saying like the perception of Garrett and us Meyer coming into the year. He was like, if not the number one, he was certainly the number one. So you've got that and an injury filled year. Now he's healthy and people really like him. And obviously at worst case, you're getting a great backup who's been around the game his whole life and his dad's an OC. The other part is you've got two developmental guys that I know some teams are really intrigued by and if they land in the right spots. But where do I want to take them in cold pain and tailing green? Yeah. Green from Arkansas, Dayton from North Dakota state. I'm telling you these guys, if they landed with an Andy Reed or a McVey or a KOC or, you know, with a harbob McDaniel, they could be something really intriguing. But I got to get a swing tackle. I've got to get a fourth edger usher. I've got to get a number three corner who could be a starter. I got to get a number three, four wide receiver. So that's the debate. I don't disagree with you. But this year's going to question that in Carson back too. Go ahead. I want I want to ask you a question on that on Garrett Nussmire because he's really interesting to me. If you look at how you viewed Garrett Nussmire at this time last year, is it similar to how you view Thai Simpson now? 100%. And I said that I said this before. I'm glad you brought this up. Thai Simpson's tape for the first nine games. Bert was exactly what I thought Garrett Nussmire was going to be this year. Right. Police nap control on schedule, footwork timing, urgency to everything he does. Anticipation throws. Okay. We're now we're moving. Okay. Let's check, check, kill, kill. Let's move this guy. Band coverage got you balls out. That's what I thought. That's what Nussmire was trending towards in 2024. He was never healthy and no one ever, no one knew the extreme of it. He got injured in fall camp and coach gets fired all that. All of it. I think he can, I won't now is he going to be this high level great starter. A history tells us those guys are bigger or more explosive and all those things. But Nussmire, yeah. I just wonder about that because it's like if he didn't like, I don't know, it's like you, you almost feel like a, like in a case like that. Are you penalizing the guy for going back to school? Like, yeah, like maybe it's a benefit. Long term from the experiences that he went through because he did get knocked on his ass. Like now he does have to evaluate that, which is like comes back to that whole principle. The golden rule over 25 starts, right? Like for quarterbacks, like which like I just, I sort of wonder about that like is would Ty Simpson if he had stayed in school, have gone through that this year, but he will never know. You don't want to be in like, I just think those are all. But also, but also the like the, where's Ty Simpson going to get the improvement that Kim Ward got from incarnate word to Washington state to my people. People forget people really forget and it's like this amnesia. Kim Ward was like a third to fifth. He was like a fifth coming into his Miami year. Jaden Daniels was a third coming into his, his last, after his first year with, with Kelly and LSU, but in the corner, Joe Burrow was, he, this first year at LSU, I did a couple of his games. I sat with him, me and Greasey and Levy. He was, he was all right. He was I, you know, but then his last 2019, he was sensational 2018, 2019. That and team like you now have this luxury of NIL money and transfer portals with quarterbacks. There's no excuse not to go back because history tells us and then you got Ty. You know, and that's, and that's the thing is like, it's just, it's hard to find very many examples of guys with, you know, the volume of starts. And there's a zillion reasons why, you know what I mean? Like I think that there's, it's very real in that like, all right. Like now everybody's got tape on you. Everybody's had an off season to study you and what the weaknesses are. And now like, you know, whereas you're really good in one area, you know, over the course of your first eight starts. Well, now like the defense is going to know what they have to take away from you. So now you have to learn how to counter punch, you know. And it's just, Mendosa's tape was really hard to watch at Cal at times. And I was like, I came out and I was like, this guy's got first round potential. Like he really truly like, I love so much about his game. But he ain't ready. Like it is turnover worthy play real. Like if you go and watch the number of mistakes he made and forced, now it was with Cal and that supporting cast against superior opponents. But to see what he did from that year, his second year, not full second, it was a full time starter in 2024. He had started games in 2023. So you come back that second year, as you said, and defensive have tape on you. And so you was a quarterback after rinse, refined repeat. So I talk about all the time. But they as coordinators now have this time, like, okay, these are his tendencies. So now you come back to that third year. And it's like, all right, you got to beat on me. Now is it now is a 21 22 23 year old. I'm going to get a beat on the things that you tried to do to beat me. It becomes this chess match over three years in a perfect world. Which is next. But that's the NFL, right? And so when you come to the league, you're like, all right, I had my, I had my first year where I was just out ballin. Then my second year, I took some lumps because they figured out my tendencies and all that stuff. Then my third year, I'm a grown-ass man. I'm smarter than you in your mind. And that's, that's what my tape should be. Like Mendoza, like Jaden Daniels, like, um, uh, uh, cam war, like, you know what I mean? Yep. Yeah. We'll just, we'll never know that with Ty and I swear to you. It's why teams are like I can't invest. I see what he can be. I saw those first nine games He was better than Mendoza up till November 1st Yeah, but what I've heard he's told teams is that like getting to practice against Nick Sabin's defense Yeah, I'm for two years or whatever. Well, I think it was two years right that he got to And it did it helped him and that's why he was so advanced when he came in as a as a starter I get that but it's not It's not that and yeah, he grew up with football on his hand and he was he was dad's practices and dad's a 20-year coach at UT Martin and head coach so But yeah, it's a big gamble and that's why I don't think unless Arizona tries to get up and make sure they secure them Late in the first I don't foresee I Don't foresee a team with an existing pick taking tie Simpson and I'm high on higher on tie Yeah, I don't see a team with an existing pick taking tie. I think the problem with tie and and I I know we've sort of metastasized this into a separate conversation, but like I I think the tie Simpson thing to me And I think that this is I think you're right like and I've heard you say this so you know I I think you're right in that like What I'm what I'm getting from teams is like a little bit more like yes You see tie Simpson do more NFL things on tape than you see Fernando Mendoza do on his Indiana tape Then Indiana system was very RPO heavy and a lot of times because they've got the great receivers between Omar Cooper and Charlie Becker and Elijah Sarat Things are going according to plan right like you're throwing the number one a lot because things are working out the way they should Versus like tie Simpson has to throw more guys open and all that different stuff I think what people make the mistake of doing sometimes is looking at it and saying well This is about like what they've accomplished or how they performed that's part of it Yeah, but this is more about where they're going and you know I think that that's the thing is like when you listen to the comps like the comp I like for Mendoza I don't know where you're at on this but the comp that I like Ryan. I like golf. I've heard I'm totally fine with that. Yeah, same same sort of thing right and Like you can win with Jared golf and there was a lot of like upside with Jared golf when he got to the pros because he had come from one of those Offenses that was RPO heavy in college, right? Yeah versus Versus you know what what Ty Simpson is which I the comp I've heard for him is Brock Purdy and these are ceilings right like but Ceilings yeah, but but but I mean like some people will look at Brock Purdy It's a well that's it, you know, and do I feel comfortable taking Brock Purdy in the first And you as an organization have to hit lightning in a bottle because because how many how many times how many opportunities are there Where you get drafted and Kyle Shanahan is is your head coach and And throwing a George Kittle and you're throwing to Kittle and you're throwing to the boss I you can and McCaffer in your backfield in the offensive So D-Bode beginning. Yeah D-Bode in the big. Yeah, so Yeah, that's I think I think we're I think there's been highs and lows and highs and lows throughout this process with Ty Simpson But I think the most rational people are kind of meeting where where we are right now and then and that can be a great thing if you find Is the right spot or sure I still believe in him But I don't think a team with with some of the risks are willing to to spend the first round pick on him if they don't have to This has been fun man. There's been a lot of fun. I appreciate I didn't expect to keep you this long. I apologize This has been great. This is a family conversation on the phones So yeah, that's a good sign. That's a big good check that box But I'm sure we'll be back on the phone about I don't know seven 10 days and trying to figure this thing all out I usually give a bench five stars. He's not here. So five stars to you, but we'll talk to you soon Absolutely thanks, Todd Must be 21 plus and present in select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas star casino or 18 plus and present in DC Kentucky or Wyoming gambling problem call 1 800 gambler or 1 800 my reset call 1 8 8 8 7 8 9 7 7 7 7 or visit cc PG dot org slash chat in Connecticut or visit md gambling help dot org in Maryland hope is here visit gambling Helpline ma dot org or call 1 800 327 5050 for 24 seven support in Massachusetts or call 1 8 7 7 8 hope and why or text hope and why in New York for Louisiana call 1 8 7 7 7 7 7 0 7 8 6 7 [Music]