Emmy Rossum: Shameless, Motherhood & Knowing Your Worth

What is up, Daddy Gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy. Emmy Rossum, welcome to Call Her Daddy. Thank you. Okay. We have so much to talk about today. You have accomplished so much in your career. You got into the industry as a kid. You spent nearly a decade of your life playing the fierce Fiona Gallagher that we all know and love on Shameless, and you have fought for pay equity in Hollywood. So I am like, girl, we have a lot to talk about today. I'm so happy to meet you. Me too. The shirt. Let's start with the shirt, because I know you're a true New Yorker. Because we're the champions. Are you still clearly riding the high? It's never going to end. Okay. I've been waiting for this since I'm like six or seven years old. I became obsessed with basketball before. I don't know why. I loved watching the sport. I deeply identified with John Starks growing up during that playoff run. I remember I wrote in my diary, he's so fiery on the court, and I just identify with him. I see myself in him. And I love basketball because it moves really fast, and you can see all the players' faces really, really well. And I need to understand the emotional narrative of what's going on. I need to understand the emotional narrative of what's going on with the players in the game. Like football, I'm too far away. I can't see their faces. Hockey, I can't see their faces. Tennis, I like for the same reason. It moves fast. I can see them. I'm with them. I'm with the narrative. Like what is going on? They're trash-talking each other. I can see it. You want to see the sweat. But I need to see the emotion. I want to see the drive. I love it. I get so invested. I need it. I love it. Okay. Where were you when the next? I was in Rhode Island with a bunch of actors and crew. I just finished a movie there. And so we kind of commandeered this bar. The bar was actually, I was like, hey, I'm looking for a place to watch the game. And they were like, oh, yeah, that's great. We're actually having a thing on the roof to watch the game. I was like, amazing. So then I got up there, and there was all these like World Cup flags. And I was like, what, are we going to turn on the Knicks? And they were like, what game are you talking about? And I was like, the only game to care about. The New Yorker starts coming out of you. You're like, panicked. And it turned out that there was actually nobody there to watch the World Cup. So they turned it into a Knicks playoff game. And then a wedding ended up coming up, and they turned out to be Knicks fans. I cried. I cried a whole night. I had a whole night because the first teaser for my show got like a 15 second spot. And I only heard about it a couple hours before the game, and I was losing it. You're like, if there's ever going to happen. That's the moment that I am getting promo. It's right here, right now that I actually care about the most. I was like, if we win tonight, and my show has a promo on it, I can just die happy. I did want to ask you, when I was stalking you, there was an Instagram post that you shared five years ago when the Knicks were also in the playoffs. Oh, yes. And you were in labor at the time. Yes. But it feels like there's a bit of like a chaotic story where like, are you putting basketball before giving birth? Like, can you tell the story? What happened? Well, I was pregnant with my daughter, and I knew that I was due. And I was very much in denial that I was in labor the first time. I remember I like, gave my husband a haircut. I was cleaning the house. I ordered some Thai food, and I had some contractions, but like, was like, kind of like, well, it's probably fine. I was definitely scared of childbirth. My mother's mother had died in childbirth. So that narrative was very in the back of my head or my psyche somewhere. But what was in the front of my psyche was I was not going to go into labor until after the Knicks game. And so I was laboring over a large kind of exercise ball in full labor. As you're watching the Knicks. As I'm watching the Knicks game. And in this photo, my mom is next to me on the couch being like, I really think you should just like, go get the epidural. And I'm like, no, I'm not going to watch this game. And I was like, nope, I'm going to watch this game. And I'll go when I'm fully dilated. And then you what you call an Uber and you're like, in labor. I actually labored the whole night before I went to the hospital in the morning, my contractions never got any closer together than like, eight minutes. So I didn't think I was very close. And I was like, I don't think I can do like do much more of this. And then finally, yeah, I woke my husband up. And I was like, we got to call an Uber. And he was like, should I get the playlist ready? And I was like, I think I don't I don't want the playlist anymore. Like you would have played the labor playlist. Yeah. Oh, wow. I get like the playlist ready. And I was like, I'm ill. I don't want the playlist anymore. I love you so much. Do I need a labor playlist? Maybe. What kind of music do you have on it? There was like a lot of like hip hop, R&B. Oh, okay. So not like soothing. I don't think we knew. We have like Kendrick Lamar going. I'm like, I feel like I would be thinking more of like, like soft, like meditation, but you're like, we were not. We were not. Yes. His contribution to the labor was his playlist. You're vibing out. Which went unused. Because we, we took the Uber to the hospital. And I remember I was like, sir, like, you really I feel like you really gotta you gotta step on it. And we were like driving up Park Avenue in the city. And he like the light would turn like start to turn yellow. And he would just stop. And I would like go into another contraction. Sir, do you want five stars? He's like, your Uber ratings going down. You're about to have a baby in my backseat. I know. And that was the fear. I was like, I just don't want to have this baby in the backseat. But then I got to the hospital. And you're fine. And they were like, my water still hadn't broken. And they were like, Oh, you're eight centimeters dilated. Like don't sneeze like this baby's gonna fall out of you. Okay, what was it like the first moment you met your daughter? Wow. I held her and I have a video of the first moment. And I said, Oh, my God, that's a person. And obviously, I've heard people say like, and then you're staring at your child. And you're like, Oh, my God, like, this is on us now. Like, we're there. We're allowed to leave the hospital with this beautiful thing. But like, what do we do? Did you have any of that feeling? Certainly, I was overtaken by the feeling of vulnerability. Just at this thing that you've been able to keep going. And I was like, Oh, my God, that's a person. And then you're staring at her. And then you're safe inside of you for so long is now outside of you. And it's so vulnerable. And anything could happen to it. Anything could hurt it. The postpartum anxiety for me was very, very rough, like very intense, intrusive thoughts. And I had had a kind of crazy journey to get pregnant, where I have PCOS. So I was had very, very debilitating ovarian cysts throughout my 20s. And tried to get pregnant naturally, it didn't happen. Tried IUI, didn't happen. And then tried IVF. And it happened in a big way. I only did one harvest. But a kind of side effect of PCOS is that you can kind of become a super responder. So I, you know, I'm not a super responder. I'm not a super responder. I'm not a I, they woke me up from the harvest and said that I had 72 eggs. Yeah, which was trippy and bizarre. And I thought I'd maybe have 12. Of course. And they were like, and we fertilize them all. And I was like, what? Yeah, so it had been a long journey to get to meet my daughter. And then when I finally had, it was also towards the end of COVID. So I had been able to keep the pregnancy private the whole time, which is something I know you desperately wanted to. It is. And I also love that, like, I get to sit here and talk with you about it. And I know that so many women who have PCOS or, you know, did IVF are going to be like hanging on to every word that you're saying right now, because I think what is so important is that you're going to be able to talk about it. And I think what is so unique about women's experiences is they are so unique. And no one is the same. Like you saying that you got 72 eggs. I was like, yeah. And then the offshoot of that was after you do IVF, they tell you to, like, monitor your weight in the next couple days to see if you put on any water that, you know, and I gained like 14 pounds in two days. And I was like, something's wrong here. So I called the doctor and I just eaten like a big fat cheeseburger. And I was like, I don't know, like, I feel like a plump grape. Something's wrong. And so I went back in and I'd gone into hyperstem. So they had to extract the fluid, which modern medicine is incredible. But this procedure was bizarre and kind of barbaric. I went in and they were like, have you eaten today? Because we could do Twilight. And I was like, I've eaten a huge cheeseburger. And they said, okay, well, we're a Coke bottle? like took the fluid out right into the diet coke empty diet coke bottle you're like and i was like this is this is okay i guess this is what we do i know i'm like oh is there not like a normal tube that looks a little more like medical right anything other than like oh wow yeah that's the also the fascinating part because i i want to go through your whole life and we're going to get more into motherhood as we go um because i know you were also raised by a single mother yeah but like that's the part of motherhood that's so fascinating is we we act like it's such like oh and then she like had a baby and it's like no no no like the actual war that women are up against to even be able to say and then a baby came and it actually there's so much like glamorization around and it acts like it's like just like a normal casual thing and it's like this is so complex yeah and there's so much that goes into it that i had no consciousness about it i had no consciousness about it i had no consciousness about it i had no concept of and maybe i'm becoming even more aware of it obviously because i'm going through it yeah but like women are so incredible and it is overwhelming what we have to go through to get to where the standard and the norm feels like it should be yeah okay let's go back um so you're raised by a single mother yeah she was a photographer my mom was a photographer she was my mom is very adventurous she was a single mom and she met my dad on an airplane um and he was not interested in being a dad um he left her when she was pregnant and so i didn't meet him until i was four and even then i didn't know he was my dad but my mom was my mom is amazing she's very adventurous she was a corporate photographer when i was little she would travel a lot and she would do things like go to saudi arabia to do the annual reports for mobile oil and she would hang out of a helicopter like attached by a cable and take pictures of an oil rig she photographed like the making of the atom bomb for our government she was steve jobs personal photographer for many years before i was born um and my mom was just like hugely impressive and capable in so many ways like we went to japan and she could like order in japanese and ask where the bathroom was we went to france and she like broke out the the french with the cab driver where they were like talking about the first world war in france in french and i was like that's like real french my mom is going to be 80 in january and she had me when she was 40. and she like i asked her last week what are you doing this week mom and she was like my dishwasher is fixed so i'm going to it is broken so i'm going to fix it and i was like what do you mean do you know how to fix a dishwasher and she said no but i will by friday and i called her and she fixed it what a gift to have such a capable inspiring intellectual mother yeah as you're kind of like north star to life yes and watching the world go by world through her eyes is like it explains a little bit obviously of why you are the way you are how would you have described your relationship with her when you were young and growing up we were close but i certainly felt the absence of my dad i certainly didn't want my mom to go to work you know my kids are three and five now and sometimes it's hard when you go to work um sometimes they have big feelings about this one time when i was like four i think i was like throwing a tantrum like don't go to work don't go to work and my mom said okay do you know what happens if i don't go to work and i said what and she said we would sleep on the street and i said okay and she said do you know what it's like to sleep on the street and i said shrug you know i'm four i don't know of course and she opened the fourth floor window and she took my pillow and my blankie and my teddy huggy who i still sleep with to this day of course he is in my hotel room right now he's a polar bear is he a little scary though he's very hugged on his belly have you gotten him like restitched a little he's been so operated on frankenstein but she took all that and she put it out the window and like i remember watching it like float down and that was how she taught me the importance of survival she threw it out the window i'm i'm picturing there's like a little fire escape situation no no oh it was four floors down four floors down so then did you walk down and have to go to the street and we went and got it and then she went to work yes she did so i might do things differently now but we were very very close i needed her i wanted her but she had to go to work she she made me understand survival in a very intense way my mom's not a woman of feelings she's a woman of like her love language is acts of service and she's quite hardcore practical like this is what it is so this is what it is yeah there you go your bedding's in the courtyard if you'd like to sleep there but also as i've become a mother i have found so much forgiveness for my mother for all the ways in which feelings were not her strong suit right my mom's mom died when she was 13 she grew up in a really traumatic household she was out of the house by the time she was 15 and went to barnard college and really made a life for herself as a woman as an adventurous single woman so i know that i'm gonna need forgiveness as a mom too and i think as we step into these new chapters of our lives we are afforded the opportunity to recontextualize the ways in which our parents came up short for us but still love them yeah i remember i i read somewhere you had said like in the past you wanted to be worthy of being your mother's daughter oh shit and i was like oh that's that's a good one i am that's a heavy one i certainly am and that but that's like but for my daughter she doesn't have to do anything to be worthy of being my daughter interesting yeah she's amazing like my mom and i never had a lot of money but i never felt that as a kid she never bought herself new underwear she took care of me she put me in a private school like everything went to taking care of me and putting and funneling into me so even though she may have not you know been able to be all the things a conventional mother is supposed to be should be although i hate shoulds she did a lot for me and i love her very much i was gonna say it's um really impressive because talking about you know two women living in an apartment together in new york city till i was 18 one bathroom like that is one bedroom i can i can picture it and then to know so you went to one of the most prestigious prep schools in the city what were you like at school like how would your teachers have described you it's funny because i found my old report cards she gave them to me she had everything saved from my childhood and she was like i want to give these to you i was really into drama really into art um really into make-believe um and i had a solid group of friends a very small group of friends from day one my best friend dory joanna pam from day one dory who is still so my best friend they're actually close friends but dory bought the apartment three floors below me so that we can raise our kids together it's very like fiona and then kevin v the neighbors next door i love it i love it and our kids literally go up and downstairs the back stairs to hang out and it's like very a little community in our little apartment building we actually lived across the street from each other and decided it wasn't close enough and she sold the apartment and moved into my building when it shameless fans so happy right now because i'm just picturing you and like the chaos of going up downstairs and all of you being so close yeah oh wow it is amazing and were you an overachiever in school no but i never really found my place or my people in school um but it was my second grade music teacher that recommended that i go audition at the opera at the children's chorus and i did and that's how i ended up singing at the children's chorus and then i loved it the second i walked into the opera it was like i had found my people my place that's what i was reading so you were seven years old when you started singing at the met yeah 11 you landed your first tv role 16 life changes you starred in the movie the phantom of the opera 17 17 yeah um did your mom have any career? Well. My mom was an artist. And so being an artist was a noble profession and not a profession that you went in to get rich or famous. Certainly didn't go to the opera to sing there for $10, $20 a night to have that outcome. My mom was very aware that there were dangers and drawbacks to this. I mentioned the pressure that you put on yourself to be worthy of your mom. Did you bring that mindset into your career at all? I had a lot of natural drive and ambition to be the best that I could be. And also, there was a lot of rigor that came with being at the opera. You were expected to go on stage, perform, get it right every single time. There was not a lot of leniency for fucking up. And so that really made my own Virgo perfectionism really kick into high drive. But I felt when I walked out onto stage that that all evaporated. It was so easy for me to share, to feel that I could lose myself in that. And that there were people that were sitting there every night experiencing that live with me. It was magic. You have said that you like to be a little terrified by a role. Yes. What feelings draw you to that of wanting to be terrified? Well, it's different in life. I think in life, you know, you have that little smoke detector in your head. And like when you're young, you're like, oh, I think I hear something beeping. Like, maybe the battery needs to be changed. Or like, oh, it's a little hot in here. Like, maybe I should turn on the AC. Like, is that the smell of singeing? I'm sure my neighbor's making cookies. Like, no, bitch, your hair's on fire. Get out of the house. Right? So in life, when you hear the smoke detector, you have to run from it. But in art, when you hear the smoke detector, you move towards it because that says that there's something there for you. Something unexamined in yourself. Something that scares you. Something that causes you to lose yourself. Something that causes you shame. And those are the things that we must examine about ourself, about our characters, about our womanhood, about our society. We have to, no different than what you do, you're unafraid to look in the places that other people don't want to look. Yeah, that makes me think about Fiona Gallagher. Like, let's talk about, so your character on Shameless, she was ferocious. She was resilient. She was pretty self-destructive at times. Yeah, risky. Take me to the moment that you read the script for the first time. Like, what drew you in in the way that you're kind of talking about right now about Fiona? It was unlike anything I had done before. It was raw. There was sexuality. There was longing and yearning for an absent parent, which is something that hit deep for me. It was like, kind of like this slightly chaotic environment that was based on survival that also felt very familiar to me. There was deep love and connection and loyalty in that family. And that hit deep for me. And there was a sense that even though they were in an economic depression, they were not depressed. They refused to be. And there was resentment. And there was resilience and love. And I knew it was mine. I knew it was my role. I knew it was for me. There's like, sometimes when you read things, you're just drawn to them and you're like, yeah, I volunteer as tribute. Do you know what I mean? Yes. Like, put me in coach. And didn't they at first not feel that way about you? No, I was told that they thought I was too princessy. I had come off Mystic River, Day After Tomorrow, Phantom, Poseidon Adventure. I had walked a lot of Red Cross. I had done carpets and press tours for those. And I had not displayed that level of rawness in a performance, certainly. But I think only an actor knows what they're capable of, which is why it's so important for all artists to take their careers into their own hands and get into the driver's seat, because only you know what you have inside. I mean, and just like now knowing, I mean, I was such a fan of the show, and I still am like the environment that you're in. You were able to create with your character. Like, it felt so immersive. Like, when you're watching the show, I'm literally a part of this family. Like, I can't stop watching. And you all did such a good job bringing it to life. Playing this character for almost a decade, did you discover anything unexpected about yourself in the process? I had always wanted a big family. That was so emotional for me. It was so emotional for me to like walk in and firstly make a pilot. You never know if it's going to go. But before we made the pilot, they gave us a week in the house, in the space, which was built on a stage in the Warner Brothers lot. And in the kitchen, the director, Mark Mylod, put a bunch of cold cuts and bread. And at that time, the fridge still smelled fine. After years and years of the fridge getting unplugged and replugged, and the fridge smelled so bad by the end, and they would put GoPros in the fridge. And we would have to open the fridge, you know, because there's a little camera inside and we would get something and you would have to plan when you would take your breath. It was like a joke we all played. Because like an old fridge, just like there's something wrong with it. It was like something had died in that fridge. I can smell it and I'm not even there. It was magic. It was we were all and that's kind of what it's like being on a show. It's like summer camp or Love Island. You're all in with less glam. You are all in the same place. You are caring about the same thing. You are talking about the same thing. You are eating your meals together. I was so those cold cuts were in there so I could prepare the meals for the family for our week of rehearsals. The fridge smells still so bad. It all smelled great. So it was fine. But it was really this amazing time where we were sharing and getting to know each other. And there was rigor on the set too. We didn't have a huge budget. So we would shoot up to eight or 10 pages a day. Sometimes when we went to Chicago, there were no sides on set ever. No sides. All actors were no sides for crew either. You were explain what that means. Yeah. So when you get to set ordinarily, people shrink down the script to this kind of like pocket size version. And you just have the pages that you're going to shoot that day. So if actors haven't learned their lines, which some choose not to, they can look at them or people can refer to them. So everyone's got a little like mini Bible of what you're making today. John Wells doesn't believe in that. He believes everyone should show up and be ready to do the job. So he doesn't make those available. They're literally not produced. So if you want sides on set, you got to lug your whole script around. So that meant that everyone showed up completely ready to work at all times. There were no last looks. Last looks is when your hair and makeup team come in when they say the cameras are ready to roll and they touch you up. Zero. We didn't have sides. We didn't have last looks. It was the best training camp for 10 years of show up on time. Be ready. This is my home. You're like, this is my jam. I don't need touch ups. I don't want touch ups. I want to make. I want to. I want to make. Let's make some feeling. Right. This is like back to what you were saying about the opera. You're like, this is it. And I know that there has been reports of like 20 hour production days and the set could be challenging at times. Like, how do you look back on that period when you like hear those things? Like, do you stay positive? I mean, I love that show and our experience so much. 20 hour production days are they happen. And when we were in Chicago, we would shoot two units at once. We would. So you would be shooting over here. You would change sometimes like in a restroom at a gas station or sometimes like you would do a quickie change like behind a dive coat on the sub on the L train. You would go to the next location. But we were so enmeshed with each other. We were so in each other's lives. We spent 10 to 16 to 20 hours a day. Five days a week, five months a year for nine years together. So it's impossible not to be so close. Did you ever feel like your work ethic was mislabeled in the press or in those moments where you were showing up and doing your job? That wasn't my experience. I felt very, very nurtured and encouraged to be a part of the work that I was doing. and shepherded by John Wells, who encouraged me to direct on the show, which I got to do many times. My cast also was very championing of me to do that. I certainly come to the set to work and I bring my all. And I think like many women, we care deeply and we prepare deeply and we love what we do. But I mean, I love that job so much. And I felt like I was born on that job, that that's where I learned to direct. John also was so shepherding of my writing as well, giving notes on the first script that I had written, hiring me to direct on another one of his shows. And those are all my buds, like we're close. I'm seeing one of them tonight on set. So I'm really grateful for that time and it has just nothing but happiness in my heart for it. - Okay, we're gonna close out "Shameless Conversation" with some rapid fire. Okay, if you had to pick which of Fiona's exes would she end up with? - Jimmy Steve, they're just so good together. - It has to be. - I mean, yeah, he's not always honest at all, but I just love them together. - Jimmy Steve, there even in the honesty lies the problem. - Yeah, love them. - We thought his name was one thing. - Loved him. - It's another thing. - He was cast before I was too. Yeah, and we had made a movie together called "Dragon Ball Evolution" a couple of years before. So I already knew him. And the second that I knew he was cast, I couldn't wait to work with him again. - Oh, that's amazing. - Yeah. - Okay, which Gallagher sibling were you the closest to off camera? - Lip. - Okay, let's talk about good old Jeremy. Who do you think was more stubborn character wise, Fiona or Lip? - Lip. - Fiona. - You're like, obviously he was the problem. Okay, what is one of your favorite memories with Jeremy Allen White on set? - Anytime we had a scene that was just us where we could really dig in, either a quiet scene or scenes where we went at each other. He has so much soul and he brings so much intensity and so much truth and honesty. That's the kind of the beautiful thing about playing characters for, I mean, I made 110 episodes of the show. They made more than that than I did. And after a certain point, the writers start to write little bits of you in there and they start to understand like the symbiosis of how you guys work together. And I'm so happy for him and proud of him. And he's such an incredible human being. An incredible actor. And I just feel lucky that we got to share all those scenes together. - No, I know. I was thinking about that. Like how crazy to see that success that he's having and have been probably feeling like he's like a brother to you on this set. And then to see obviously like you both having so much success that must be so gratifying. - It's amazing. - It's amazing. Okay, what is your favorite off camera memory that you have with the cast? - In Chicago, we had this massive, massive snow storm and we got shut down for one day. We would go to Chicago to shoot twice a season and we all stayed in the same hotel and we would be in and out of each other's rooms and we ate all meals together. And we got this piece of cardboard to like be a makeshift sled. And Justin Chatwin, he saw a truck and got on the piece of cardboard and like rode it down the road. He's such a daredevil. And I have this video of us while watching him do it being like, "Don't do it, but also do it." - Oh. - And that was kind of like, we had a lot of kind of mischievous play and craziness. And it was just incredibly fun. - Love it. What Fiona decision will you go down defending? - God, I mean, I think the worst time she ever fucked up was when she left the cocaine around that I think Robbie had given her and Liam got into it and he ended up hospitalized for it. And I think that that was the worst I ever saw her. And certainly when I read it, I was terrified of the scene because of how I, I cared about Fiona, even though it made for really good drama. - Oh my God. Not you like reading that scene. You're like, - I'm like, oh, it's really good drama, but like, oh God, I gotta do this now. - Okay, off the top of your head, most emotional scene to film. - Certainly in the prison, the strip search scene was really very challenging. - It's so crazy 'cause that show was so funny in moments, but like my parents are rewatching it and they're like, - It's dark. - What's an iconic line of dialogue from the show that you still remember? - I don't know. I don't think it was even in the show, but we had this off camera joke of, "Look what you could have had, Craig Heisner." That was like, maybe Shinola's line, but maybe not. And it was about Taylor Kinney who played this guy, Craig Heisner that Fiona was into in high school and he ends up married, but then she ends up sleeping with him, even though he's married. - I like that line. - So I think, I don't know if that was in there, but that's what we used to say a lot. okay i want to talk about a huge accomplishment of yours your fight for pay equity on shameless how did you first decide to even take that on well when i started the show um it made a lot of sense that macy made a lot more money than me he was coming in much older much more accomplished tons more credits and number one on the call sheet and then by season three they approached us we had a six-year contract approached us to add another year and i think my lawyers felt at that time that we had the receipts like we could see the way the short the storylines were shaping we knew about fan engagement and we felt that it made sense to ask for that we didn't get it and that's fine we thought you know we tried we didn't get it um and then in season five or six they came and they asked for more more years so i guess at six we extended to seven and then maybe in seven they came and they asked for eight nine that's right and by that point i had been directing a lot on the show and it very much felt like a two-hander and and we said let's go for it again um it was kind of shut down pretty fast and we kind of that kind of lingered for a while um and then i wasn't sure if we were gonna get it um it's always scary asking for what you think you're worth to say i think this is what i'm worth you have to take up space in the room and it's their job to make the show for as little as possible to make the most profit that's any business runs that way so kai can understand it from the other perspective too um and i didn't know if they were gonna come over to our side and do it or not um and we were getting kind of close to filming the next season and i was one day sitting i was like on a writer's retreat and i was procrastinating and i opened up twitter and it was a headline that we were in like a stalemate and i was shook because you had intended for this whole thing to stay private yeah it's a private business negotiation negotiation and i never imagined it would become public not just for the public but also for the rest of the cast and the crew right because the cast wasn't aware obviously everyone everyone was doing their own negotiation and so i certainly didn't want that how did you manage that once it broke on twitter like did you reach out to cast they reached out to you like because it's a little awkward i didn't say anything um and after the first headline or article i was kind of like refresh refresh refresh what's gonna happen um and the tide really shifted people seemed to write other articles like immediately commenting on that kind of being like oh my god i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this um and it was resolved within a day i was shocked shocked and quite frankly very very surprised that we actually got it wow so maybe the public commentary actually really helped in your favor because it like woke people up to be like she's not delusional yeah like guys what are we doing here yeah i also think something that's so interesting is like when men advocate for their worth they seem strong and it's kind of you know they're competitive and it can even be strategic sure and when a woman does it you can just come off as difficult and ungrateful for what you have been given as you were navigating all of that before it you know got released on twitter did you feel this pressure to remain likable during the negotiations because these are people that you know you have to work with i only desire to remain professional and my focus is never on money it's on what's fair and what's right and i believe that people should be paid for their labor it was really about being valued equally when i was doing equal work um so for me it was as simple as that um and i was very very happy when we got it and very very happy for what it seemingly did for for for other women who i you know i was like in a health food store in ontario or somewhere in canada making a movie a year later and a girl in the health food store said to me oh thank you so much for what you did for pay equity and i was like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry we all asked for a raise here and i couldn't imagine that it had traveled so far i think you know i think ambition and wanting to be in the driver's seat of your life is not something to be shied away from i think i think likable is is should not be the focus it focuses on outward in not what we know to be true about ourselves and our worth and i think like i agree i think that's the goal right i remember when i interviewed ellen pompeo and she talked to me about her contract negotiations with gray's anatomy and she was like girl no one is gonna give it to you you have to ask for that's interesting we have the same agent oh my god very interesting oh that's very i like her very much i like her very much too yeah oh wow okay because when ellen said that to me i was like oh my you're so right no one is gonna give it to you you like you gotta go for it there were also a lot of men on my team who were like let's get this we are going to get this we are not going to go back unless we get this so it wasn't me saying i want this there were a lot of times where i felt scared and wanted to cave i was like who cares i love this show i love these people i want to do this and they were like no we're not doing this and i was like no we're not doing this and i was like no we're not doing this we're not doing it because i had caved once before i had caved in the first contract negotiation and yeah i also just i really appreciate you talking about it because i think it's just such an uncomfortable conversation for so many people because you think about money and you think about men and so like we're kind of dancing around a topic that historically just has not been synonymous with women and so to reacclimate people's brains to like no no no i'm doing the same job as this person who happens to be a man but why are we not making the same amount or what like where is the pay equity it it sparks a larger conversation like twitter obviously took it and ran with it um but it does still there is that fear within you that it's fascinating it's like would a man be scared because we're kind of trained of like how far do you want to push it and i'm so pleased that now this equity conversation is being had is a conversation it is very hard for women to get what they are worth because there is a double standard do you have any advice for women who have a hard time advocating for themselves and and for their worth practice it at home practice saying it out loud practice saying what you need and what you want in every aspect of your life sexually say what you want with your partner say what you want eat what you want for yourself and don't be afraid to say what you want for dinner don't eat the thing you think you should eat for dinner to do what you really want and and treat yourself in the way that you want to be treated it's also like i wanted to stay in the job i loved the job i wasn't walking away from the job um i loved the job and i loved the job until it felt like there wasn't enough juice to squeeze out of the lemon we had made 110 episodes and by the time i left and they offered us two more years i i had already started my production company i had set up my first show and i was greenlit and getting ready to make it so when they came with two more years i felt beholden to the other job and i you know i think a common misconception is i left to go have babies that's could not be further from the truth i left to go make the show i had been developing that our showrunner john wells had encouraged me to kind of get in the driver's seat of my own career and make my own shows and make things and i left with a lot of grief and sorrow because i would i would miss all those people and i couldn't believe that they were going to go on the journey without me but i was also really excited i felt like i was launching and a new getting ready to start this new chapter of my life also i i i wasn't aware of that rumor i'm like that of course that is so on the nose emmy of what we're talking about we're like of course it was like she left the industry she moved back to new york obviously yeah obviously um i want to talk about dating yeah i love that topic okay when you look back on your life yes do you notice any patterns yes or okay you're like where do i begin put me in coach let me write you a dissertation right now patterns or similarities between the guys that you were drawn to in your single and early dating days intensity intensity intensity i don't know explain well i don't know my first great love was when i was about 18 and he was the older brother of one of my closest friends so i had known him a little bit from when i was younger and he asked her to ask me if he could ask me out and i thought it was so cute and she was kind of like lol like this is gonna work out like you should totally go out with him so i did and he picked me up in a hummer which i thought was ridiculous and i told him immediately this is a ridiculous vehicle for new york city in new york uh-huh this man owned a hummer in new york city and um he thought it was flex though for sure what color was it it was like light green or gray or it was not amazing okay um but i gave him shit for it and um he liked that so i liked that um and then the second date he um oh he let me drive the car i had had no license and i had never driven a car and after dinner he was like do you want to drive you know yourself home and then i'll drive the hummer do you want to drive the hummer and i was like i don't have a license and he's like i'll teach you how to drive and i was like what this is great and he was like you got to accelerate into the turns and i was like oh this guy's intense like love this um we didn't kiss um and i started dating him when i had shot day after tomorrow and phantom of the opera but neither of them had come out yet so it was just some like quiet little chapter in my life before everything kind of exploded and the second date i was on the press tour for the day after tomorrow and what a good movie he thank you oh so fun to make um i love jake gyllenhaal and we we were on the press tour in paris and he flew to paris to take me on the second date on the second date this man flew to paris he was 20 i was 18 i think and he said i've got a surprise for you and he shut down the palace of versailles and took me on a date there i mean it was it was epic he shut down versailles for you and it was misty and raining and you're and we kissed for the first time at the palace of versailles and i was like this is the rest of my life right how is it a second date intense intense very intense and when you look back like what does that intensity in a relationship like really feel like an ignite in you. I don't know. I'm also drawn to people that are very good at what they do. His family was art dealers and he was extremely educated in art and history and spoke multiple languages and was like a fisherman and could do a lot of things. And I found that really interesting. I mean, I completely agree. I think when you can be intellectually stimulated, but also watching someone be really good at a craft, it's extremely attractive. And also, like, I don't like opacity. I don't want to wonder if you like me or not. I don't want to play games. I don't want to be in a situationship. I don't want to be like, is he going to? No. I will know if I like you and I want to know if you like me. But date two. Yeah. Paris. Yeah. Versailles. Yes. We're shutting it down. Yes. It leaves a fall off opportunity because what is date three, four, five? And where do we go from here when the intensity is so intense? Yes. Obviously, you're saying you saw patterns. I mean, we were together for almost two years. And at 18, that's pretty long. Yeah. When did you ever come down from that relationship? Well, maybe we were together for a year and a half. It felt like a long time. It was the first time I moved out of my house where I'd grown up with my mom. And I moved into his house with his family, his whole family. So my friend, they all lived on different floors of the house. So my friend that I had grown up with, she was like on the third floor. We were on the second floor. The parents were on the top floor. It was like all a big family in a house. I love how the people, when they were trying to cast you for Shameless, they're like, I don't know if you're really her. Everything in your life so far is like, I am Fiona Gallagher in a different experience. Done. And then the first time I went away to make a movie when we were together, I was going to be gone for six months, just in L.A. And it was the first time we've really been apart. And we had been to the Oscars together. We had really kind of enmeshed in each other's lives. And my world had really kind of changed and exploded. And he had been along, you know, for the ride on that with me. And I was going to be away for six months. And he worked in New York. And I remember on a call, he said something like, well, do you think you're going to, like, continue? Do you think you're going to, like, continue? Do you think you're going to, like, continue to do more of this? And I said, hopefully. That's the plan. And that was not the answer he was looking for. And so I was really heartbroken. I remember I cried for hours, for days, days. I was very heartbroken. Because you're basically like, do I pick my career or the guy I'm in love with? Yeah. And I was like, well, my identity cannot be the cost. My. Being an artist, which I've been since I'm seven years old, cannot be the cost for being in love. Did you find that you continued to crave intensity again? Sure. Did you slow things down ever? Did you ever have a slow burn, Emi? Or no? My husband has a slow burn. We're going to get there. Yeah. Don't fast forward. Okay. Okay, hold on, hold on. So we're still in the, like, you were looking for intensity. You would find yourself enjoying it in the beginning. Yes. Eventually it would burn out. Yes. 21. Yes. You got married. Oops. Oops. Oops. Okay. Tell me about what happened. You know that smoke detector that you're supposed to hear in your head? Well, I heard it and I ignored it. And I ignored it. And after I dated Versailles Guy, who we will call him now, Versailles Guy, who is now, by the way, happily married, lovely kids, and I'm still friends with his sister. Love that for him. I dated a guy whose favorite pastime was breaking up with me in public. We would like to order the meal. And then he would say things to me like, I just feel like I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm not going to be able to do this. And I'm like, you're growing so much from knowing me. But like, I don't know that I'm growing that much from knowing you. Yeah. And like, on average, how many times do you think he did this to you? Two or three. And me? Two or three. And you would just sit there and like. I really liked him. I really liked him. He was really, he was really talented. I was very attracted to his talent, his power on stage. We had done Romeo and Juliet together, and he had been Mercutio. And Mercutio was just like a real panty dropper. And I was just, yeah, I really liked him. And so there were like two very consecutive rough heartbreaks. How did your mother feel about you getting married at 21? Well, she felt great about it because she didn't know. Yeah. When did she find out? So I started, I started dating Joe. I started dating Justin, and he worked at Interscope Records that I was signed to. And we were dating for maybe a couple months. We were certainly, we liked each other. And then I got Dragon Ball Evolution, and I was going to go away for six months to Mexico, to Durango, Mexico, the middle of Mexico, and make this movie. And I remember the date. And the day that I was going away to make the movie, he said something to me like, I don't know if the relationship is going to survive the distance. So like, maybe we should break up or get married. No. How could I make this up? I mean. Yeah. I literally had a flight that night to Durango, Mexico. And so I think the decisions that we. She's dead. She's dead. I am obsessed with you. You're like. So it had, we had to get married. Yeah. So from either breakup or get married. Yeah. Well, at that moment, I thought to myself, well, I'm just coming off these two really rough heartbreaks. Like, abandonment is my core wound. I don't want. I don't want that. That hurts me. And I literally thought my 21 year old, 20, 20 year old. 21. Maybe. Yeah. My 21 year old brain thought. You know, divorce doesn't seem that complicated. Like, it's probably pretty straightforward. How did that work out? It wasn't not straightforward. OK. Like, I. But. But no. But, you know, and I. I. I knew that I. Not you planning the divorce before. A hundred percent. And so we. He literally printed out like a marriage contract online. And got some guy on the Internet to, like, come over to my house. I found like a white turtleneck that was in my closet and like threw it on because like I was like, this is appropriate, right? Yeah. Yeah. Literally not hearing the smoke detector in my head being like, don't do this. You don't have to do this. No guy should be like, let's marry. You know what I mean? It was my intention not to tell anyone because I knew in my gut it wasn't right. How long were you married for? I think we're married for. Oh, I was away for six months. When I got back, it became abundantly clear we weren't a match in any way. Did he come to visit you in Mexico? I don't think so. Oh. I don't remember that happening. That's interesting because he's like. Also, it's like not that long of a flight. I don't know what. Like, everyone was very dramatic. I don't know. Like, it's literally just like going. People go to Mexico for the weekend. Like, what are we talking about? I love that it's like, if you leave, like, we're not going to make it. So we have to get married. It was so dramatic. OK. OK. So you come back and then eventually you're like, this isn't working. This isn't the thing. And did you tell your mom? I told my mom, hey, I'm breaking up with Justin and I need a lawyer. And she was like, you did not. And I was like, I did. And my mom has always been somebody that mobilizes. My mom is like, like, if anyone is going through a breakup, my mom is not employed right now. So if you need someone to show up, she'll like send you for a manicure and be like, I have the U-Haul. Like, go take care of yourself. What is your mom's first name? Cheryl. Cheryl is going to be there to be like, girls, let's get the divorce papers. Yeah. Oh, wow. OK. So she mobilized for you. Yeah, she mobilized. And you got the fuck out. Yeah. Almost a decade later. Yeah. You met your now husband. Yes. On a movie set. What drew you to him? Was there intensity there? Tell me everything. OK. We met on my birthday. We had a meeting. We had a meeting. We had a meeting about a movie that he had written, the first movie that he was ever going to make. And when a director offers you a movie, they send you an email through your agents. And there's usually the script, maybe a lookbook, and usually a letter that expresses why they think you're right for the movie and tells you a little bit about the movie. And sometimes with a first-time filmmaker, they'll tell you a little bit about themselves. so no yeah So I brought you the letter because I knew we were going to talk about relationships. I am sad. No one has ever done this on Call Her Daddy. Emmy. I have the letter. Where is my popcorn? Oh, I'm not going to read the whole thing because my husband is long winded. His films are long and his letter is long. But this is the letter that he wrote me. I'm going to read some excerpts of it. Give it to us. Oh, I'm so ready. So here's the thing. You're a beautiful, successful actress. Thank you. With a long career ahead of you, doing my movie would require you to take a gamble on somebody you don't know. So I'll give you a rough sketch of whom we're dealing with. I'm a screenwriter reluctantly living in Los Angeles, wishing I were in Manhattan. I'm tall, but I hunch. My parents are Egyptian, but I was born in New Jersey. I'm too nerdy to be a hipster and too cool to be a nerd. So I have friends and enemies on both sides of the aisle. The entire situation. Fills me with a lot of anxiety, a lot. I do not care much for money. I also don't have much of it given my incredible Dartmouth NYU student loan debt. I also want to make movies because I have to. I'll explain. I was in therapy the other day, analyzing the very subject. I've wanted to be a filmmaker ever since I was eight, and it's been a law long, arduous journey to get there. And I'm telling all of this to coddle. That's my therapist's name. It's pronounced like "caw-dl." How fitting. Anyway, Cottle sits there all intense and pensive like he normally is and says the same thing he normally says. This is just your career, Sam. There's more to life than your work. I hated him for using that word. I finally told him, stop using that word. This is not a career. That session turned ugly and weird, but it also turned out to be very important. It's when we realized I don't look at this like a job. It's the same way. A mom wants to be a mom, a dad wants to be a dad, or a pet wants to be petted. It's a want that just is. If there were a parallel universe where filmmaking was the equivalent of a $30,000 a year factory job, I'd be there. And I was like, who is this? That sounds- I'm immediately into it. He's like, I'm in therapy. I'm like, check, check. I love my job. I'm like, who is this? I'm like, who is this voice? I'm a nerd, but I'm not a nerd. I'm not a hipster. Like, all the, everything. So when you get that, what is your first reaction? I was sitting in the hair and makeup trailer at Shameless, and I was reading the letter before I had read the script, and I turned to Shanola Hampton and Sharon Rivera, our head of hair, and was like, can I read you this letter? I think I'm supposed to know this person. And there was something that was just like immediately familiar or intriguing or something. So I read this. I read the script, and it was undeniable. And I was like, who is this person? And then I met him, and he showed up in a American apparel hoodie in a vintage Prius. And he had lookbooks upon lookbooks upon lookbooks about what the film was going to be, how he was going to make it. And I was immediately impressed by his work ethic and his vision and thought he was a really interesting person. What did it feel like after you are like, I am so impressed with this person, I am already into it by his writing, then you meet him, see him for the first time, hear his voice. When does it turn from work to romance? We knew each other for about a year. We developed the movie, went and found financing for the movie, put the movie together, he cast it. And then. We had spent time together over that year, and I remember I started thinking about life through the lens of him. I would be eating a sandwich, and I would be like, I wonder if Sam likes tuna. Or I would be like, I drove past a museum and was like, I wonder if Sam would like to see the Kubrick exhibit. I wonder if Sam would think that's funny. And. I was so curious about him, and I had spent so long trying to find someone that I thought would understand me, when I realized maybe what I'm after is trying to find somebody I never want to stop trying to understand. Like, I was so fascinated by him. And then about a week before he made the movie, he came over to my house for dinner, and I was like, you know what? I'm going to go to work. And he said, I've just been to therapy, and I really have to get this off my chest, coddle, and I talked about this, and I just have to tell you that I love you. And we hadn't even started the movie yet. I was like, huh? I did not say it back. I did not know how I felt. And then we started the movie a week later. What did you say back? Bon appetit. I don't really remember saying much of anything. I think he said something like, but I don't mean it like that. What I mean is like, I mean, I do, but I also don't like, obviously, I'm me and you're you. And I'm sure that, like, you know, you could never love me. And one day I'm sure that I'll be at your wedding and I'll always love you from afar. And nothing ever has to happen, obviously. I won't. And I just needed to say that. And then the rest is history eventually. Yeah. I mean, the second that I got on set and I saw him, he was so kind and capable and he played really good music at Video Village and he gave really good notes. And so suddenly he went from someone, suddenly he was really sexy. His like quiet power was like, oh, no. So then I said. After the first week, I think I love you, too. And he was like, no, you don't. And I was like, yes, I fucking do. And he was like, OK, here's what's going to happen. I'm going to kiss you and you're going to be like, I don't feel anything. And then we're just going to go back to the way. And I was like, what are you doing? Just do it already. And he's like, but it can't mess up the movie. And I was like, OK, it won't. And it didn't mess up the movie. And then we kissed and we've basically we broke the couch. We broke the couch. We had an L sofa. And we broke the couch. We broke the couch. Yeah. And that was 14 years ago. Fourteen years. Yeah. Can you talk about how you've said throughout our conversation today, you know, like I have these abandoned abandonment wounds and, you know, I know your relationship with your lack thereof relationship with your father was extremely complicated. Like how did you. Finding such a stable, incredible partner that you love so much. Like, have you been able to look at that relationship with your father and whether it's heal some wounds or just like, how do you feel about it now? Oh, it's such a good question. My relationship with my husband and watching him be the world's greatest girl dad. He was like made to be a girl dad. It's the ultimate healing. The ultimate. Yeah. And my husband is so loyal and so kind and so giving and so everything I've really ever wanted. That's so beautiful. I didn't even think about that. Like you're getting it's healing watching him due to your daughters. What you didn't get. You didn't get. Yeah. And to watch him do it so incredibly effortlessly and to do it to such a caliber that like your would never, ever leave her. Wow. That's really beautiful because I feel like I'm sure there's so much. So many women watching who have complicated relationships or don't have a relationship with their father. And that is such a from experience with my friends who have a similar situation where you're like, I don't have the relationship and I and some of my friends like I don't even want it, but trying to find your way forward with those male figures in your life and like put in place like what that would look like in your ideal world to be able to like get it. Yeah. And to watch it. How healing that must feel. I'm so happy for you. It's moving. Yeah. It is. Have you ever reached out or ever spoken to your father again since yeah, yeah, yeah, you're younger. Okay. I met my dad when I was four, but I wasn't told he was my dad and why was that? He told my mom that he wouldn't come if she told me who he was. So you thought you were just meeting like a guy came to one of my moms. Friends came to take me for dinner for my birthday and I was four or five. So I didn't ask many questions about it. I didn't really get it and Sky came and took me for dinner and we went for spaghetti and I don't remember much of it. The only thing I remember is I you know kids cut their spaghetti and I remember he said we don't cut our spaghetti and I went home and my mom was like how was it and I was like he said we don't cut our spaghetti and she was like okay so then a couple years later after hearing. at school and kindergarten and first and second grade. Who's your dad? it wasn't common to have a single parent household. At least when I was growing up, it wasn't as common. All the families that I grew up in looked very traditional and conventional. And so I felt that absence very much. And so I started asking my mom more and more, who's my dad? Just tell me who's my dad. And she's like, do you remember that guy that came to take you for dinner? And I was like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy as my dad. And she's like, we don't cut our spaghetti guy as your dad. And I was devastated. I was like, I didn't like we don't cut our spaghetti guy. She's like, I know. Yeah. And then did you ever? I did. I did. I met him once when I was eight. He took me to Casper and he fell asleep. But I did develop a deep crush on Devin Sawa. So the day was not for naught. Completely. Completely lost. Yeah. OK. And then I didn't really see him again until I was on Shameless in my 20s. And we tried a couple of times, but he's just not really interested in loving me. But my husband is amazing with my daughter and getting to watch him play with her, pick her up from school, be so incredibly devoted as a dad and to my son, too. Getting to watch the fact that I got to give her something that I didn't get is I get to live vicariously through that. And that's enough for me. It's beautiful. Intimacy. Yeah. How has your understanding of intimacy changed since your early 20s? Well, I'm so much better at asking for what I want now. I. You know, that that little voice inside of you that says I'd like to be touched like this or I'd like this or I don't like that or that feels I felt that my voice felt quiet and stifled when I was younger. I felt shame about expressing desire. I felt shame about expressing specifics that I wanted about using the words. But you have to tell somebody what you want and also what you want on Monday doesn't mean you want it on Thursday. You have to tell somebody what you want on Thursday. And it's OK to say, yeah, I wanted that on Monday. I don't want that today. You know, like it's OK to grow and change. And I feel like I have a lot more comfort. And part of that was my pregnancy because my hormones were so strong and I felt so sexual. I was so down that it was the voice was so loud in my head. It was screaming that I couldn't ignore it. Can we talk about motherhood? Yeah. My favorite topic. I'm pregnant, obviously. And I feel like a lot of the advice that I'm getting for parenting advice, a lot of people just keep saying like, oh, my God, you kind of just have to figure things out like that. People can try to prepare you and tell you what's going to happen. How did you personally embrace the uncertainty of not having all of the answers and not being able to, you know, you know, you know, you know, you know, look at the page like you said, you do your script and fill in the blanks and prepare and be ready and then get onto that set and like take it 100 percent like a pro. You kind of can't do that from what I understand with motherhood, Emi. Tell me. You can and you can't. Like you can prepare, but then you never know how things are going to hit you. Yeah. And there's like so much instinct at play. You will just know, at least for me, I can only say from my experience, I saw my mom. And I was so taken. I, you know, I had the same thing where that I said about my mom. I wanted to be a mother that was worthy of being this child's mother. And then I realized. I'm trying too hard. I'm trying too hard to be worthy of anybody else. I just got to be me. And. And women are always told you can have it all. You can. But that actually means you have to do it all. And it comes at a cost. And often that cost is not your job and not your kid, but you. So when my daughter was 10 months old. This is an insane story. When my daughter was 10 months old. This is what my therapist calls the pancake problem. I was going to shoot on the crowded room. And I had like a 16 hour shoot day. And I was waking up before she was going to wake up. And I was coming home way before right after she was going to be asleep. And I was like, how will my daughter know that I love her today? She will think I don't love her today. She's 10 months old. She doesn't know what's going on. Right. She literally doesn't know what's going on. So I thought, OK, let the car is going to pick me up in like 20 minutes. But I have to do some things that my daughter knows I love her today. And I'm like, I don't know what's going on today. So I have to take a shower. I have to get in the car in 20 minutes. But I'm going to make my daughter pancakes from scratch also before I leave. So I turn on the stove. I make the batter. I turn it on low. I put three little pancakes in the pan. And I set a timer on my phone for three minutes because that's generally how long until you got a flip. I ran to the shower, got in the shower, shampooed, washed it out. Ding, ding, ding. The timer goes off. Time to flip the pancakes. Got to get out of the shower. But I still have to condition, so I'll have to get back in the shower. This is insane. But this is also so postpartum. Like, I was like in it the first year. I'm picturing you like wet towel, like running back and forth. You're naked. But I'm naked. I don't time for a towel. The pancakes are on and I'm in the shower and I got to be in the car in 15 minutes. Run to the pancakes. They're perfect. Flip them. Gorgeous. Golden brown perfection. Sprint back to the shower. But I left the shower door just a crack open. So the water is on the floor. So I slip and my foot gets caught under the shower door. And I hear like a crack. And now I'm like down on the shower floor. And I then scream out like someone turned the pancakes off. I then like army crawl to the kitchen. The pancakes were fine. I then called work and was like, hey, I'm going to I'm going to be a couple minutes late and I need to switch my pickup to Lenox Hill Hospital. Probably just like just like 20 minutes late. I'm so sorry. I just need like probably a quick X-ray and I'll be right. I'll just do a quick little X-ray and I'll be right there. By the way, I didn't hold camera. I was like I was completely there on time. I got the X-ray. My daughter got the pancakes. And at the end of the day, I was like, something's got to change. OK, no, I'm listening to the story. I'm like, I thought that we were like we had to call in to work and we're like out for work. No, no, no. She got the pancakes. Yeah, she did the work in a boot and she lost her mind. Yeah, 100 percent. And so this was a lesson I learned that year and got really, really good at being like, I'm going to do less. But it's something that comes up for me a lot. Like just last week, I took I went to set. I shot my first scene. I had like the middle of a zoo. I took them on a zip line. We got lunch. I went back to set, did my last scenes, went back, did bath time, bedtime, got on a zoom. And I was like, I'm depleted. I got a. So this pancake issue, I think, is real for a lot of women, a lot of moms who really want to show up on every level in their lives. They're showing up at work. They're showing up for their kids. No one is feeling it. Right. But they're feeling it. And so I think for me, the biggest lesson is that sometimes it's OK to do a little bit less. I know. I feel like that's what everyone's like. But then I feel so guilty of like one area has to suffer. And like, has that impacted the way that you view your career and success at all? Hmm. Well, motherhood hasn't made me any less desirous of storytelling or ambitious. Clearly not. We're here today. We're about to get there. Yeah. And I think it's made me more strategic and clearer about when it's worth when the story is worth me missing even the smallest moments of my kids life. Like a normal day, I wake up and I take them on the public bus and I do drop off. And if I go to set, I go to set. And if not, I go about my day and I pick up like I want to be in my kids lives as much as possible. Your new project. Yeah. The show Furious. Yeah. It is your production company's second project. Yeah. And you are both the executive producer and you are the star. Yeah. So congratulations. Thank you. Doing both. I am so interested to hear you talk more about it because it is obviously so like female led. And I know that's what your production company focuses on. Yeah. But just tell us a little bit more about it from your perspective. And what drew you to it? really wanted to go back and look at old films that had good skeletons. of what could make a TV show and was really, really looking for a character that would be as rich and as deep and as fascinating as Fiona that I could play for years and years. And it's a really fascinating world. It tells the story of my character, Alice, who is a former NYPD detective, which is a very prestigious job. It is not a job that people leave. And Alice has left the police department because she's been in an abusive relationship with another officer who she's known since her teenage years. And she started over at the FBI. So she's a new FBI agent who's really gonna have to work her way up. And she stumbles upon this idea that there's a murder that is connected to an old case that she had at the NYPD. So we are simultaneously following this serial killer, this really fascinating, mysterious woman who. has been also a victim of violence and is kind of on a mission to enact vengeance and get justice for herself. And Alice's plan to get justice on a much larger scale. And we'll notice that the women are actually more similar than they are different. And I was really fascinated, too, by. what happens for women in law enforcement when they need to make a complaint on their own behalf. Like, who do you call when your partner is hurting you and is also in law enforcement? You call 911, and who answers the phone? The partner of your partner whose responsibility is to watch each other's back on the street. It is incredibly complicated, dynamic, and very charged. And for Alice, who stumbles upon this case, and then gets back involved with the NYPD, who she's been running from, to have to see that former person at your new job when you've done everything to get away from them. And also, the relationship between Alice and her ex is one that had violence and control, but also love and desire and loyalty and history for a very, very long time. So it's a very, very complicated, like, fertile ground, and one that I was like, I could dig here for a long time. Well, I agree. My team and I were talking about how we just love these female characters. And I know the show gets its title from the Greek goddess of vengeance. You had mentioned the word vengeance. Furious, yeah. Multiple goddesses, yeah, who's want to enact vengeance. Can you explain what really started to interest you about female fury and rage? Oh. Well, I think women have a lot to be furious about. That felt cheesy, but I didn't mean it that way, because that's the title of the show. It's okay. No, I think sometimes, as we see with these characters, our power does come from being underestimated. For both of these women, they have to work in the shadows outside the conventions, and they have to work in the shadows outside the conventions, and they both exhibit very risky behavior. And I think that that's why they're fascinating to watch. Something that I love that you do a little differently is the central conflict, yes, being at first between these two women, obviously there's so many layers to it, but I feel like neither woman neatly fits into the hero or the villain box, which I love that so much. And I'm curious, like, what interested you in the hero or the villain box? What interested you in kind of putting out a show that does live in the gray area? I love that. I mean, I think that's so delicious. I think that there's so much more kind of juice to be found in moral gray areas than in people who seem one way but then surprise you and can be other ways. No, I completely agree. Are there any themes that you have, that you've been really pulled to in your life recently or any, I don't know, anything just like thematically that you're like, oh, that's also something I want to definitely explore in the future in a project or whatever it be that you're like, I think that's something as a woman, especially with my female-led company that I want to kind of take on? Yeah, I think, I mean, I'm interested in exploring all aspects of contemporary womanhood. Anything that causes us shame, anything that makes me uncomfortable, uncomfortable or confused or to feel some sort of way, that's what I move towards. Certainly roles that scare me. And this one did. I have so much respect for how much you pour into your roles. And obviously even hearing you say like, I wanted to find something that was as intense for me and like brought it to life like Fiona because those are huge shoes to fill. Everyone like thinks of that role and they're like, oh my God, it was so iconic. And so the fact that you have such a passion for this show coming out, I know it's like how exciting as yes, an actress, but also on the back end being behind the camera and bringing this to life. Thank you. It's really cool. I literally was just like a sponge wanting to talk to you about everything. And I know we went all over the place today, but that was by design because I was like, I need to, I know we only have so much time, but I need to try to cherry pick every little thing from you. I enjoyed talking to you too very much. Thank you for sitting with me. And just having some girl chat. Thank you so much. I appreciated it very much.