The speaker, a successful entrepreneur and New York Times bestselling author, shares her journey and philosophy on building a business and leading with authenticity. She challenges the myth that entrepreneurship requires a grand vision, explaining instead that her motivation stemmed from a personal need for fair pay and recognition. She emphasizes honesty in leadership, arguing that women’s achievements are often misattributed to men or dismissed, and that she refuses to sugarcoat uncomfortable truths. She advocates for direct, immediate action in workplace conflicts—like addressing credit theft or pay disparities—stating that delay only allows issues to fester. Her experience shows that real growth comes from confronting discomfort and learning from lived experience, not from polished, idealized narratives. She critiques toxic positivity, insisting that leadership requires both optimism and realism, with clear boundaries and accountability. She believes that personal success is rooted in authenticity, not perfection, and that transparency about one’s journey is essential for others to learn and grow. Her approach blends personal truth with practical wisdom, emphasizing the importance of direct communication, self-honesty, and resilience in building a successful, sustainable business.
I think that people always imagine that to be an entrepreneur, you have to have some grand plan that you've always wanted to create your own business. I didn't. I just didn't think that anyone was gonna pay me what I thought I was worth, except me. - Is that right? - It's not like I was like, "Oh my God, you know, I'm gonna be the next guy." - I ain't gonna be the next guy. - No, I was just like, "Please, I need to be paid "like I lot more money." (upbeat music) - I know that's right. In the green is walking up to the house right now and you'd know her as the powerhouse business woman. The New York Times bestselling author and podcast host with strong views on what it takes to be an over-successful business woman and successful mother. But we're gonna find out what she really thinks it takes to have it all. - How you doing, girls? - I'm so happy to see you. - Happy to see you. (laughs) - Yes, it's so good. - Oh, we can have a chat today. - How about to cut it? - Honey. - We got immigrant in the building, everybody. (laughs) - I'm so excited. - Bip, bip, bip, bip, bip. I have to say, the air horns don't come out often. You know what I'm saying? - Thank you, honey. I think you did that. - You know what I'm saying. - You know a little sexual situation. - You look at them. - You know? Here we go. - All right, let's go. - Mm-hmm. - I'm delicious. - Am I right? - Am I right? - You can make a drink. - All right. - I mean, in this. - Come on, what was the last time you wore this color? - Never. - Thank you. - I don't wear color. (laughs) I don't wear color. I was just like, he's such a bright lie. I need to match it, you know, and then there you are. - And then when you know. - That was really good, by the way. - See? - Yeah. - I'll take it to the sip of that. - Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. - Always gonna be that kind of interview. - Yes, it will be. - Okay. - That kind of day. - I kind of shot it. - Buckle up, buttercup. Here we go. And also help yourself. - I'm ready. - Josh Johnson actually set a precedent for the Charcuterie board here at this house recently. - What? - This meal turned out to actually is his preference for a last meal. Like, if he's ever on, you know, his deathbed, he gets one thing, you know, the Charcuterie. - First of all, I will tell you, I am quite the Charcuterie expert. - Is that right? - I think we've ever seen, yeah, yeah. I put together a meal. - You got the butterboard and everything. It was kind of wild. - It's very, very, very specific. Because I don't know that in America, your cheese is up to much. You know, it's like, I want it unposterized. It needs to, you know, it's very specific. - Do you say the cheese is not up to much? - No, it's not. - It's true, it's not real cheese, it's not up. Sorry, you can taste it. You know, when you go to Europe though, and the eggs taste different, and the milk taste different, the cheese taste different. Yeah, I have that. - In America, we have cheese food products. - It's not, it's cheese food. - Yeah. - America is good for many things. Good for business, bad for cheese. - Bad for cheese. - I'll take the business. (laughing) - I'm so glad that you are here. - Baby, you have sent people through a doozy with this book. - I've heard it yourself. - You have got it. - Or the funk it. - It's a doozy. You tell me, you had to have an idea that when you released this, you were going to be bucking up against challenging for sure and maybe even offending quite a few people, am I right? - Can I tell you, I want to say yes or no, because there were parts of things that I had said that I felt the need to, like, clarify it in like more than a 30 second reel. So there was that. There was like the old stuff. I definitely didn't anticipate that there would be as much new uproar that I would be rustling quite so many feathers. - Really? - Yeah, and I kid you not. It's like, I really honestly feel that there was some stuff that to me was just running the mail and I was like, how is that ahead, John? - But it is so interesting. The kinds of camps that have been created as a result. Like, there are people who are now like, "Oh, Immigrant, here we go, here we go." And then there are people who are like, "We need more Immigrants!" (laughing) But it was time we finally get honest about this shit. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, you get these like, almost like very strong opposites. - No, I appreciate both, because listen, I'm a person that likes to learn. And I actually think that there was a lot of like critique that I was like, okay, like fair enough. - I grew up with that. - Like, yeah, because I think that, you know, I never want to be one of these people that lives in a bubble, right? There doesn't understand anything outside of like, where they're going, what they hear. That's just not how I roll. So there was so much stuff that was valuable and yet still kind of made me double down because I was like, yeah, no. - On that, I mean, what is it? It's like I said what I said and I meant what I said and I said that over and over again. And it was never a part of me that was like, let me back down, but it was like, let me listen for sure. - Give me one of the examples where you were like, okay, that's critique, I can get next to that. - So listen, if I'm really honest, I didn't double down into the critique. Like, I'm not a mad person. I don't sit in the comments. I don't get on the Reddit threads. I get like a sentiment, like from the team, 'cause that was the smell of the morning. And of course, I'm not ignorant to the stuff that was said. I think it was the things that made headlines, 'cause I'm not like down in the depths of the internet ready to like. - I know the way they must've got you fired up, though, quite a bit was that you didn't do this business on your own, that you didn't make your, you have not made your own way in business. - That my husband was responsible for my success. - I know that picture. - That one. - That one. - Because I ain't never seen, I ain't never seen you get online. Quite like that is it. You know what, let me talk about this. - You said, let me just tell you this. - That's okay. You know, I never film things that multiple times and I have to tell you like the team had to give me a few pointers. They were like, what about you don't bang that you're the nice? Flat hand Emma for less aggression. It really annoyed me because it just wasn't true. And there's some things where you can have an opinion. Do you agree with my point of view on work, life balance? You know, do you think being a three hour mum's okay? Like those are things that matter of opinion. This was just not a fact. - Right. - It's just not a fact. And so to me, it was super annoying 'cause I feel like any time a woman does something great, we're so quick to attribute it to a man or to attribute it to anywhere outside of her. And that's just deeply unhelpful. Not just for me, but for other women that come out and they're like, look at this thing that I did 'cause it's like, we're always searching like, how can this not be her? - I'm not gonna speak for women, but I know certainly when I look at people who are successful, I'm looking sometimes unfortunately in my unhealed experience, I'm looking for ways that make them an exception to my own experience. Like I can't, thanks. - I can't reach that because for my own shortcomings or my own difficulties or my own complexity in my own story, they don't have that. - And I think they're coupled with so much of the stuff that I said that was a rub for people, right? When I talk about proximity, but people are like, the Emma, I need flexibility in my life. I need to be able to work from home. This suits me. This is better than the way my life was like pre-coveted. - You say in the book. - It was uncomfortable. - You say good. You say great. - In the book. - In the book. - You say baby, do you. - Literally. - But for me, this is what I had to do. - Yes, and align your expectations to your work ethic. - And your perception of what your work ethic may be regardless of what people are telling you with that comfort. - Yeah, because I do think that especially, like right now in our culture, we try to make people feel really comfortable with their choices without being reasonable about what their choices are gonna equate to in their life. And so I just think that when you're someone like me, I can only give you the benefit of my experience. I can only tell you what I see being somebody that employs hundreds of people. And if you buck the trend, like good for you, if you make it work and you build a billion dollar brand working from home two days a week, I will be the first to be like, how'd you do that? But right now, I don't see it. And so I can't fake that. I can't say, yeah, yeah, like keep doing that and keep your expectations sky high. So I just think it's about a right sizing. It's about a balancing. And it's also just a level of honesty. 'Cause right now what we do is we caveat. We make these apologies before we tell people the truth. And that's just not my language. That I'm not gonna explain to you like why everything that I'm doing needs and apology, and by the way, then tell you the thing. I'm gonna tell you the thing that you need to hear in that moment. - Yeah. - But it's like, it's just not my language, it's not the way I speak. - That probably, especially in a time where a lot of things have become more sanitized, where things have become safer in delivery. It's like be careful of how you say things, which is what we all should be to some level, but that it shouldn't make you not dishonest. - That exactly, right? You still gotta say the same thing. - You still gotta say the thing. You gotta be considerate of the person you're talking to, but you still gotta say the same thing. - Yeah, and also we gotta think about what are you saving? Right? 'Cause I think there's certain ways that we behave in society that it's like, we tempered our language because those are the right things to do. Those are social norms. But when we're actually gas lying, when we're lying, when we're not telling the truth about experience, because we're so scared of the consequences. That's not helpful. - Also big on the my experience. - Yeah, I think on the my perspective. - This is the things that work to me. Like this wasn't supposed to be. Like here's what everybody needs to do and follow. I'm like, this has been the truth of my existence. And that is the main point as me writing this book, because I thought that the information that was out there about me was largely untrue. Because people imagined that it's like, I came to America and both, like I turned into this like overnight success. And I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no. Like let me tell you what actually happens. Like let me tell you the reality of the fact that I've had a job since I was 12 years old. - Right. - And all the things I did. And so actually this was really me telling the truth and trying to dispel some of the myths I think had popped up around me really unfairly. - So in honor of your book start with yourself, your New York Times best selling book, by the way, we're playing a little get to know you game. We're calling executive decisions. (upbeat music) - Okay, so we got some scenarios that might pop up and I wanna know your take. - Let's do this. - Okay, shall we? - Does a business partner's politics matter when going into business with them? - Ooh. - Is that for you? - That's for you. - Oh, that's for me. How nice. - How nice. - How nice. - How nice. - You know, 'cause now sometimes you don't know until you're in the situation. - But when you say that,
politics, you mean like their literal political affiliations, not the drama going on in their lives. No, I mean like literally their politics, like how they align on social issues, political issues. So this has a level of nuance to it. I think he's really important. Do I have friends that would vote differently from me, meaning do I have a Republican friends? Absolutely. Yes, I do. Yeah. Do I surround myself with people that have very different backgrounds, very different upbringing? Absolutely. I mean when you go in business with somebody, there is a sense of like there being some kind of like spiritual alignment, right? It's like it's broad and just like do I like you? Am I going to mess with you? Like that's something else because that's about what are we building? Like what are we aligned on? What are our belief systems? Like what's our vision? So I would say I am totally down for surrounding myself with people that have very different political beliefs. I don't know that I'm building with someone with very different political beliefs. See, I would have thought that that might have gone the other direction. Not all businesses end up in the way that you imagine. I'm coming up on the 10 year anniversary of Good American. I never thought that you would be doing this, right? 10 years later, it's like hard to fathom. And so when you choose a partner, that has to be in a place where like there's a level of respect and you're going in the same direction as one another. And so I think it would be difficult to do that with vastly different ideas of what the right vision would be without what the right ethics would be. But like to hang and chill and drink a margarita like, oh, don't know. No, that's right. It would not be in an echo chamber. I think that you know, some people have this idea, especially in the political climate we find ourselves in now, where it's like I don't even want to be associated with you don't. That's enormously problematic to me. And I also just think it's like it's not real life, right? It's like where I come from, you would, there was such a like melt in pot of people. And depending on where you grew up, depending on like your family, like you would have a very different, very real belief for a real reason. And so I just think that as humans, we are way more nuanced than our political affiliations. I'm like, are you a good person? Are you a person of your word? Do you do what you say you're going to do? And you can do that on either side of the aisle. Hopefully. Next card. Oh, it's you. Okay, here we go. Your coworker keeps taking credit for your idea. How do you handle it? I'm going directly to the source. 100%. First of all, you're not going to your boss. You're going around the office. I'm not going to human resources. Oh, I'm going direct. Well, here's what I say. I'm not going direct to human resources first. Oh, there's this thing now where it's like you didn't say hi to me. I'm going to human resources. Like that's now where we are. It's crazy. Emma, I've seen it. You think I haven't seen it? I've seen it. It's wild. No, that is not how you work out. You flaked on a lunch that we had on the schedule. Human resources. What? There's no human resources in real life. You just have to fund. I ain't going to keep it out. That's for sure. No, no, no, no. You got to be out of work to have things out. My uncle Paul told me something, especially about being a young black man in corporate America, that you have to be prepared to meet a fence in the moment. Don't wait. If it happened in public, it happened in a meeting. Don't wait until you get back to your computer and you can send an email. Sometimes you have to meet it direct as it came to you. So if you're in a meeting and somebody's taking credit for your work, it's like, yes, I love that you also agree that that work was so important when I was thinking about how that plan would be implemented. I was excited for that kind of enthusiasm for you. Oh, I love it. I love Uncle Paul, by the way. I can feel it. Oh, Uncle Paul is the man. Listen, I can already feel it. And I think that that is just really good practice for life, right? Because when you let things bubble and fester, it creates something otherwise in you. Half the time when that stuff happens, people don't mean a fence. They don't actually mean to steal your work and take your credit. It's just like how people speak. So when you meet things like in the moment, oftentimes you'll find that other person will be, oh no, no, no, no. I wasn't trying to take credit. Like, this is just how I'm speaking about the project, how I was thinking. This reframing happens immediately. And then it doesn't happen again. And then if they don't happen again, not baby, you got it down in a different way. Oh, I love. Brue recognized real neighbors. Have you met my pup, Himzwearth? I rescued him when he was about eight weeks old and he got so sick and almost didn't make it. But look at him now, right? So good boy. That's why I got to thank Tito's handmade vodka for sponsoring this part of the episode. Did you know they've rescued over 170 dogs from around their distillery? When started with a few strays in Austin, grew into their vodka for dog people program supporting animal nonprofits with everything from that care to adoption. There are two things in this house my guests love. Oh, that's right. A good drink and a good boy. So a quality vodka that makes a great cocktail and looks out for our dogs. There's always a place in this house for you, Tito's. Thanks to our sponsor, Tito's handmade vodka, distilled from corn and bottled by 5th generation ink, Austin, Texas, 40% alcohol by volume, saver responsibly. Does can I pick your brain actually work as cold outreach? You're in your DMs and someone's like, Oh my god, I love your life. I read your book. I'd love to take you to coffee, pick your brain about something that I'm working on or how you know, I want to write my own book. I need specificity. I want someone who comes to me and says, I'm having a real problem with this specific thing around this specific time with these specific people. Do you have some experience around that because nobody has time. Can I pick your brain? You already have lost me because you've found a deal with a busy person. So it's like, have specificity. Let me know because then I'm going to call you and I'm going to be specific and I'm also going to help you through your problem. That thing. Because pick your brain is like, you don't know what you're asking. You don't know what you're asking. You know what you're solving for. He's what's a time. Yeah. And I don't really have a lot of evidence. But I give a lot of advice. Like every day, I was saying Monday through Thursday, pretty much religiously, I am on the phone to a founder, to an entrepreneur, to somebody who just has a job and needs some advice. And I will spend that journey coming from home to work on the phone with someone working through something with them. Is that right? Yeah, all the time. And so they'll usually send me a presentation that goes to my team and they'll be like, here are my numbers or here's my trajectory. And this is my specific problem. And I will talk to them about it for the 27 minutes that it takes me to get to work. Now was that something that you were doing before you were on Shark Tank? Was that something you were doing? Oh, yeah. Oh my goodness. That seems like a very shark thing. It's just who I am. It's like a very shark. It's a very shark thing. You have that 27 minutes. You're on with them like, yeah, 27 minutes. Yeah. She said, Britney's like, I have Emma. No, no, it's really funny actually. I've just done it for the longest time because I know what an unlock so many people around me have been. So when you have great people that invest in your company or come onto your boards or you're just surrounded with good people, the proximity to that information makes you better every day. And I'm surrounded by all of these great people. But a lot of people don't have that. They have zero access. They don't know anyone in the business. They're styloed because of where they lived or they don't have that. They just have no one. And so I want to be that someone. And usually there's not even really a roadblock. They need a different way of thinking about it. Yeah. And someone who's been on the other side of it. Right. And you can just say, oh, guys, I've done this so many times and it cost me XYZ. So I like people to come to me with problems, with areas that they need help with. And I'll just work it through with them. And oftentimes I'm saying to people like, this is not a problem. You don't have a business. You have a hobby. You are not actually ready. Yeah. Do you find that most people think that they have a business when really they have an idea or they have a hobby. They have an interest for a lot of people. Yes. What happens is people stay in their heads for too long. Right. So they have an amazing idea and they would permeate in and permeate in an idea in and changing, but they never did anything. Yeah. And so I'm like, listen, you've got to get off of your computer. You've got to get out of your PowerPoint. You've got to get out of your head. And you need to find 10 customers. Get in the streets. Yeah. Don't let an idea that visits you daily. You just be sitting there and sleeping on it. Like that's like the total road thing to do. Were they saying like perfection? Is the enemy of good or something? Yeah. And it also is like, don't let perfection prevent progress. Yes. 100%. Get out there. Get out there. Just like try. Because again, it's just one of those things that I think that we've been specifically for women, right? There is this idea that unless you're perfect, you're just not ready. And I think that men are very, very good at getting out and just going, you know what? I'll just figure this out as I go along. And that is what it takes to be an entrepreneur. You've got to have that mentality of like, I'm just going to push through for our problems. I'm going to work things out as I go. And actually, there is no such thing as perfection. Because when you're in business, you're constantly ideating for the next version of the thing. Maybe it's just the inherent experience of men in business or the inherent experience of men in society is like, I don't have to be perfect. I can walk down this hallway and it is what it is where women have a different experience. How do you pull from the experience of men into like, how did you do that? Were you literally pulling from the men who are around you in business or uncles who are around you in, you know, in the street? Both. Right? How did you do it? I do think I emulated the behavior of a lot of men because that's the only experience that I had and that's the only thing that I saw. And actually, when I got into a workplace with my
first female boss, I found it the opposite of supportive. And so I think that some of my behavior was picked up both from the men around me in my family that were just like hustlers, just going to do whatever it took to get the thing done. And so that was just like, that's how I'm built, that's how I'm wired. And then when I got into business, I didn't have many people to copy from. So I would just like say the things the guy said or do the things the guy did. Most of what I learned when I was young was how I didn't want to be. Most of it was the experience of being an employment and being like, I will never be that type of boss. I will never expect people to work like that with poor enumeration. I will never expect people to give me their ideas and me take credit for it. So that is really fundamental in the way that I think about leadership, like all of those things I experience. Yeah, especially in the situation where you're working with a boss that's a woman. Yeah. And you're like, oh, this is not what I expected that to be. No. How did how did you move through that experience while still feeling like I want to work with women, right? Because I would imagine that it can flavor how you move forward in a lot of your companies, you employ and work. Oh, it's majority women. Exactly. It's majority women. I never thought for one second that one woman's behaviour was reflective of how women were. Yeah. But neither did I kind of look at me and kind of internalise it, right? I never thought, oh, this is about me. This is something I'm doing wrong. I was like, that lady over there has some issues that she'll need to work for. And I am young and dumb. And I need to just deal with it. But that was again, I think that's just so much about like the generation. Because in my early 20s, there was no such thing as I can't believe she spoke to me like that. I can't believe I'm still here 11pm. It was like, you just did it. You just did what you needed to do because my eyes were always on the pies. And I was like, I'm going to just be here, eat some dirt for a certain amount of time. And then I won't have to do that anymore. But there was just to me, there was almost like this period of like internship, just like being the low person in the office and just having to get through it. Because you know, everyone talks about Gen Z. Right now I was like, Gen Z, you said, can't good luck. You know what I mean? I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know that I've buyed that so much. You know. No, I think it's so individual. Because I would say that the best and the worst of the people that work around me are Gen Z. Like the most thoughtful, articulate and vicious, genius people that around me are some Gen Zers. And then I have others that are completely useless. I mean, I have people in their 50s that are totally useless. Absolutely. So I don't know that we can bucket it into generations. I feel like that's like an oversimplification of it. I think you have certain types of people. And the culture gets to the people. How we feel, right? It's like it's sick. And you have to, you have to, go and get back in yourself. And there was like a massive, massive shift post COVID. We had a big world event. What do we expect? Right? Nothing was going to change. The people's attitudes and their way that they came into work and the way that they think. While they were in the purest of their developmental phase, right? Of how their personalities around work, the personalities about themselves, the society, all of that stuff. Yeah. And we all changed. Yeah. But I changed back. Because I had to put the bottles on. I put the bottles right on. Because it's been for a while. I'm just going to be thirsty. I will be thirsty for the next 25 minutes. 27 minutes you got me on this call. I'm going to be thirsty. Your coworker makes way more than you do for the same job. What do you do? Oh. Okay, pause. I'm going to, you literally pause. I'm going to add to that. You find out your coworker makes way more than you. Mm-hmm. What do you do? Well, first of all, you take a deep breath. Whose problem is that? That's your problem. You're going to play your coworker. You're going to play in your boss. Listen, the business's job is to get the business done with the most amount of profit and the least amount of cost. Period. That's the boss's job. The coworker's job is to get the most amount of money for the work that they do. And then you have you. So where is the self-responsibility in order? That's interesting. That's fantastic. I'm going to tell, come on. I'm burning it down. Come on. I'm burning it down. I'm burning it down. Oh, you got paid. How much? And I'm on a email. Okay, let's take a step back because I know how you feel. But what are we optimizing for here? Because that's the question that we always have to ask. Do we like our job? Are we being really like under, you know, like underpaid and under what is the word under undervalued here? Because the question is when you understand what you're optimizing for. So let's just say for arguing, it's like, you love this job. And actually, you want to stay in this job, but you want to pay that's commensurate with the other person. Yeah. Then you are going to sit there and go, well, let's have a few conversations. Why am I not being paid? Do they have more experience? Are they better at their job than me? Are their results better? Be honest with yourself and answer those questions because if you can't say yes, yes, yes, then you better understand why you're underpaid. So listen, I'm going to start with yourself. Go get there first. Get there. So you're going to start with yourself. You're going to understand. Because this is also the only thing that you can actually change or actually effect at all anyways. Right. And if you know with all certainty that your results and your behaviour and the way that you go about your job is commensurate with that other person, of course, then you're going to go and have a conversation, but very, very rarely, very rarely are two people being renewmated differently for exactly the same work and exactly the same results. Right. With exactly the same experience. And if they are, they like boom, boom, boom, boom. They're going to go and figure out, but I always think there's nuance to that. And you have to get with that. And it can't always be like, oh, I'm so disadvantaged. You know, it's just not the truth. In some cases? It is the truth. In some cases, it absolutely is the truth. But in some cases, it is not the truth. We have to be. Am I down? Am I down? This is not a drill. You all right? Just a little eye-waddering. This is a dynamic thing. I got you. I'm good. Okay. I'm a bread watching this conversation with Oprah. Oh, I know this conversation and the guy was getting, yeah, he was like, oh, you don't have a family. I mean, that's insane. That's insane. That's insane. That's crazy town. Is it insane? Sometimes it's crazy town. Sometimes it is. But I also think like, what we need to do, especially like right now, where we are, like, what do you want to be? Like, you want to be a thoughtful person that gets what they want. And so I'm always like, what is my intended result? And that's what I mean. But like, what am I optimizing for? At the end of the day, you want to be paid the same or more. So what towards that? Because you going off like a crazy person is not actually helping you with your intended result. So it's like, be offended, yeah. If you need to match yourself. Well, you know, I have a whole chapter on anger because this is something that I have dealt with. Same. In my life. And when it spills over into your personal life, it doesn't help you get to where you want to be. So we have to think about what's what's useful? What is a useful emotion to use in a moment like that? You don't want to go and try and guilt someone. You don't want to use your anger. You can actually sit there with a level of intelligence, learn something about yourself, and end up getting the pain crease that you need. And so I'm like, go that way. Okay. So now you tell a story in your book about this job where you were like, I'm doing way too much. You're making way too much money on me. And it's time to talk about these pain creases. And maybe you want to double it. And they laughed in your face. And then you walked away from the job. Yeah. But I'm very curious about how you are a young woman in business, getting some inkling into, I'm kicking ass in this. You have to see it, but you won't let me participate in the windfall of cash or achievement here. I have to do something else. How did you get to a place where you were like, I can leave the job for not another job. And I was figured out because I think a lot of people struggle with the idea of move on. They didn't move on to, they didn't move on to where? To where? Yeah. Who hired it? Who hired it? It's such a layered question, right? Because the truth is, when you're that young, there's an element of freedom, meaning I don't have any dependence. I don't have a mortgage to pay. So the context is important. Because I think as you even ask that question, I'm like, wow, like if I was like that at 44, like it's a whole different set of circumstances. Right, exactly. At that particular time, it was easier for me. Having said that, there was no reputation, there was no savings, there was no nothing, right? So it's like, I just had to make a decision. And my book starts in an interesting place for a business book because I talk about mission. And I don't mean like. Your board or.? Yeah, it's like, I want people to have a vision for themselves. Because what I had when I was younger is a really clear idea of what I wanted. I was like, I know exactly, I know where I'm going, I can feel what I want. And I was like, what I can't deal with is being really excellent at what I do and being poorly renumerated for it. And I was just 100% sure that given my skills, given my superpower, I could probably make it happen somewhere else. Right. So with that knowledge and with that reputation, I was like, you know what, if I really can't get it here, then I have no choice but to go somewhere else because I have a vision, I'm on a journey. And certainly, if I'm here and I'm telling you this is what I need and you can meet me there, I'm not going to find it here. It wasn't easy though, you know, and I never want it to sound flippant and easy because I loved that place. I loved the work I got to do. I was working in like, you know, London Fashion Week and it was so cool and that whole thing, it just made me like, it made me so happy. It was like the pinnacle, like at 24, like the work issue life. And for me, that's what it was. All my friends were there. So it was a very hard decision. But it just became down to this thing of like, what? It's very clear to see what I'm doing. It's very clear to see the value I bring. Right. But I also didn't think that anybody else was going to pay me much more. And so I think that people always imagine that to be an entrepreneur, you have to have some like grand plan that you've always wanted to, you know, create your own business. I didn't. I just didn't think that anyone was going to pay me what I thought I was worth. Except me. Is that right? So I was just like, okay, then I'll start a company and I'll pay me.
Shit. Yeah, it's not like I was like, oh my god, you know, I'm gonna be the next guy. I'm gonna be. Yeah. No, I was just like, please, I need to be paid like a lot more money and I'll pay me. You talk about money being neutral. It is neutral. Not being good, not being bad and it will bring out of you, it will bring to you what's already in you. So people talk about like money making people mean or money making people frivolous. And you say that's our aimless already be in you, money made it easier. Listen, I think about money as a tool and I think whoever you are, when you get money, it just makes you more of who you are. If you're like a super generous, joyful person that loves to live life and you get loads of money, you're just gonna be more of that. If you're like some miserable, scheming, underhanded, shitbag, you know, then that's how you're gonna be when you get more money. But I like to think about money as a tool because it's a good recontextualisation for people that say, you know, like, I don't know what I would do with more money, like that feels like too much. It's like money just gives you choice. That's it. Money gives you freedom. Money gives you the ability to see really clearly and when you're like me and you're bought up with nothing, there was a feeling constantly that I was always like on the wrong side of the money conversation. I was like, it was always about what I didn't have. That's all I was ever trying to do is just get past the point where I didn't have to look at like, what's something cost on a menu where I don't have to worry about that. I wouldn't pay if I bought this. Simple things. You know, it's like, it was, to me, it was just that baseline, simple thing. Do you remember the first time you were able to put all of your bills on autopay? Oh, I remember so clearly. Same. I remember so clearly. Same. In England, we call that a direct debit and it was like, you said the filling in little bits and I was like, do you understand it was huge. I was like, oh, I am grown, grown, grown, and then I would get some like magazine subscriptions because I was like, I had so much left over. I was like, oh, no, I was in. I was in. I was in. I was in. I was in. I was in. I was in. I was in. I was in. And I was up. Do you understand? I remember. Those certainly conversations that my father who was out in these streets was having about money. You had to have a bank account to have a auto debit. Yes you did. You had a cash payment. Yes, you did. Yes, you did. But you know, I actually think that in my childhood, it's weird because I had a lot of exposure to money, right? So it never scared me. I'm never one of these people that was like hiding from bills. It was like, money was like there in cash in my house. And when it was gone, it was gone. And I knew exactly what was owed, my mum used to like, budget at the kitchen table. So in a way, I had such an awareness of everything. I'd see a kid with a new pair of sneakers and I was like, you know, adding up the outfit. Like, I know, still to this day, the cost of everything, of every single thing. And it's funny because that just never leaves you. Well, also, it helps inform you of how to like, what people are up against when they walk into a store and are going to buy something. Oh, that's what makes me good at my job. Yeah. I know if I'm asking you to part ways with a hundred and twenty dollar pair of jeans, I literally need to understand the value of every single one of a hundred and twenty dollars. Like, it's like, I get it. I know your relationship to it. And haven't departed from that now because you are so successful. No, no. And I hope never to. I think I never want to be that person that like outsources that type of decision-making because again, when something is so hard one, like the feeling of it, like it doesn't leave you. I mean, it's like, it's still who I am. And so I like to keep. I don't want to get rid of that part of me. It's not a scarcity mindset. It actually is quite the opposite. Like, I have an abundant mindset when it comes to money and yet I have so much respect for money. I have so much understanding of what it's enabled me and what it can take away. And so I just have an innate respect for it. It was, it was reading something earlier today when someone was describing their relationship to money. And they were saying that for them, making money isn't about making money to buy more or to buy more things. It was about being able to do more, create more. I mean, I like to buy things too. Hello. Hello. I like both. Can we buy things and create things? Hello. Hello. I thought it was a great reframe. And your idea is a good reframe. And that like, it's, that money isn't bad because it's going to bring all these other things. But then you hear songs. It's like, more money, more problem. Yeah. And I, I think there's an element of truth to that, but I think it's because for a large part in society, more broadly, we've kind of equated like money with bad, right? Because there are all of these like extremely wealthy, extremely ignorant and kind of evil men that are around doing terrible things, but that isn't the reality for most people. Most people want to make money so that they can look after their family, so that they can live a great life, so they can be without the burden of their bills coming in. It's like, it's, this is very simple stuff. And I think that it is your responsibility to understand money. I also don't want to outsource any of that to anyone around me, right? Right. Not a business manager, not a husband, not a finance department, it's like, you need to understand your money. A whole chapter. A whole chapter. The longest chapter in the world. I was going to say, a chapter. I'd say section. Yes. It's a section. It's real. It's a section. It's a, it's a, it's a very good book. It's a, it's a very good book. If you're like starting your, your relationship or starting to renew your mind around your relationship with money, I think it is no-hose barred direct, direct contact. Contact. This is what we're talking about. Yeah. And a very uncomfortable at first. And then you're like, oh, I got to change my mind about some things. Yeah. If I want something different, I got to do something different. One million percent. I talk about it in the book like this idea of exposure therapy, right? It's like the more you expose yourself to your money problems, to your money story, to the way that you think and talk about money every day, it's like you're teaching yourself how your patterns work. You're teaching yourself where that stuff came from. And you're teaching yourself like to have responsibility with what you've got. And I do think that sometimes this is sort of disconnected people that will work so, so, so, so, so hard. And then they get what they deserve from it. And then they sort of, this lack of respect on the other side. No, no, no. You've got to work just as hard as making your money work for you, as being like the guardian of your money because stewardship of money is very, very different. You can be excellent at making money and really bad at managing it, but you think, wait, don't go together. Because you do one. Don't mean another one comes out of me, honey. Is it appropriate to buy your boss a holiday gift? Absolutely. Yes, everybody. I get out of here, okay, so like, you buy employees gifts, you buy your employees. No, I have too many employees that give them money, so they buy their own gifts. They give them money. Money. And if you ask them what they want, they want money. That's real. That's what they want. Yeah. No, no, no, no. We are big on the boat. So, save the gift card. Give me the money. Give me the money. Same with people in my house. I give the money. People want money. Let them make their own choices. And unless you're like a dear person to me, like my immediate, like the, the greed team, like, you know, they have like a person, a gift. Right. Like, you know, luxury gift. Yeah. Everybody else gets. Get the money. Yeah, make it money and a gift. I'm sorry. Look at that. I'm sorry. I got a great solution. Derek's back. It was my birthday. I've done it. I still ain't got my gift. But, you know, I'm going to be two kids. I'm fucking starving. We're waiting for like, two kids in Malibu. We were traveling together. Okay. So, that brings a good question, I think, up to me. A gift giving, especially around the holidays, toward the, the boss. No, you don't like that? No, I'm just curious. Is that frowned upon in America? No, I think not necessarily the boss, I think, is probably a okay with it, but I'm wondering what the other colleagues think about the person, or maybe the only few people who are giving a boss. Oh, I think they think they're a suck up. Because I get, like, there are certain people. And, you know, okay, so this, I think, is a generational thing. Okay. Because now I think about it, the slightly older women in my office. Well, always give a gift. I'm pretty much nobody else does. Unless they're like, teetering on the brink of knowing they're about to get. Getting gifts for people during the holidays can be a lot. What? Don't be looking at my naked tree like that. I got my ornaments from Macy's and your neighbor notes about holiday shopping right here. So, thank you to Macy's for sponsoring this part of the episode. I figured we'd do this part together. Well, by Christmas trees coming along, first question. Should adults still make holiday lists for what they want? I think, yes, adults can make lists, but that's your business. I don't think they should be sending that list to anybody who isn't asking for it. You send me an unsolicited list, and maybe you're going to get blocked. Ooh, had to get low on that one. Alright, next question. Do I need to buy a holiday gift for someone I just started dating? I think that your action should match your level of commitment or energy. A gift is always a nice way to signal that you're thinking of somebody. But if you're expecting a gift in return, I think you have the conversation about expectations around the gift exchange. That way, you're on the same page, and maybe you don't get your feelings hurt. This next one is from Leroy. We still got Leroy's? That's amazing. Congratulations. Are gift cards a good holiday gift, or are they too impersonal? I've always thought, a gift is a gift. If you're struggling with making it feel more personal, try one for a myself.
and pro-level tip, spring for the 90 minutes or more, I'm telling you, you'll be a winner. (upbeat music) (laughing) Don't you look good. All right, last question. Do I get my nieces one big thoughtful and expensive gift or a bunch of small gifts? Opening a bunch of smaller things is way more fun for the youngins. So save the more expensive gifts for when they get a little bit older, but keep the gifts fun and thoughtful though. Don't be gift-rappin' wrenches and hammers. Not for the kids. Get a head start on your holiday gifting with Macy's gift guide and shop Macy's home at macy's.com or Macy's near you. - Can you get ahead without kissing us, preferably? - Actually. (laughing) - Can you imagine, imagine. This is unbelievable. - I don't even have that in my body. - Probably. - No, I don't have that. - What do you mean? - What do you know? - I don't think that you need to, and I don't think that it's a particularly admirable trait. - Kissiness. - Yeah, because I just don't believe you. Then I just mean you're a liar. I like straight people. I like people that tell me the truth. We all need this. But especially when you get successful, you need the truth tellers around you. You can't have asked kisses. You can't have people that lie to you. You can't have people that just, you just need the most straightforward, honest, and I need it quick. I don't need you beating around the bush to look after my feelings. I need you to be direct. Here's what's happening. This is what you don't know. Here's what the deal is. - Interesting. - Yeah, yeah. You can not pay enough for that. Like, I'm telling you, I keep certain people around me. - 'Cause they keep it all the way around. - Oh, they're going to come and they're going to be, like, I have a guy who's worked for me for years. He used to be, he was my assistant, Chavo. And now he runs production, men's production at Schimms. And Chavo is extremely talented, but he also always tells me the truth. I'll say something and he's like, "Mm, mm." And I'll be like, "Well, you know, he's out one of those, mm." (laughing) - Sure, what's happening? And he said, "That didn't happen. "That's the story you told yourself, that didn't happen." I'm like, "Oh my God." And he said, "Actually, and that, that, that, that." And I'll be like, "Uh, right, right, right, right, right." - Yeah, you need them. - I see you for dinner on Thursday. - Yeah, yeah, you need those people. - Absolutely. You find your co-workers only fans. Do you tell management? - Oh. - They're on the team. - First of all. - High up on the team. - No, what would the hope to get them in trouble? - Right. - No, no, no, that's somebody's business. Don't know. Like, literally, that's somebody's business. - No, you don't do that. No, you don't do that. - Do you subscribe? - To only fans. - I'm just saying, like, if you find co-workers, you don't know what. - You don't know what. - That's about it. - Where are you down, what? - I think I'm dying to interview the CEO, 'cause it's a woman. - And I find that very interesting. - No. - Wherever you are, like, kind of thing, man. - It's very interesting. - No, very interesting. - I'm tapped in for it. - Fascinating business. I'm like, first of all, I come from a place where, like, you know, it's like, snitches get stitches. Like, you don't grasp people up. Like, this is just not. - Grass? - Yeah, oh, sorry. Another English is them, then, then, then, then. - You don't grasp people up? - Yeah, that's how you say next. - Don't grasp people up. - What are you saying, England? Don't snitch. Don't be a. - Don't snitch. Don't be a snitch. - You good. That was good. - And the interest Elbar over that. - See. (laughing) - No, I don't believe in that. I think that that's that person's business. Like, don't be bad-minded, don't you? You can't be that type of person. That's going to come back around to you. - Okay. Now, I'm going to take it a step further. - Okay. - Boss, now you're interviewing dream candidates. - Oh, yes. - You're coming, they come in, they knocked everything out of the park. - Yeah, well, well. - You're walking out, you're like, by the way, I do need to let you know. - Mm-hmm. - You have an only fans. It's only my feet, but I do have one. And it pays a lot of it. - Listen, that could never happen to me. - What? - No, it would never happen to me. - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. - No, honey, let me tell you, let me tell you why. Let me tell you why that could never happen to me. - I've all got all of my things. - Mm-hmm. (laughing) - You probably got it. You probably got it. Let me tell you, people are so vetted that before they get to me, it's already been cold. Like, I know you are a whole history. - It's just feet. - No, no, no, listen, before I even get here today, I have so much around me, so many layers that they know your whole story, they know your brother's story, they know your mother's story, they know the whole thing. If you have an only fans, and I'm getting to that point in the interview, I already know. I'm probably subscribed. (laughing) - I really think so when you get here. - It's like, that would never happen. It's like, I already know. - Would it? - You're fully vetted. - Would finding out a dream candidate had an only fans prevent you from hiring them? - No, for what position? (laughing) - No! - Listen, I don't want it to be like my kid's teacher, but like, let me just think about this. Like, you have an only fans, and you're coming to run, you're gonna be the head of like. - Intimid apparel. - I mean, that's just a good research. - Oh, is it? - You know, you're categorizing. - Yeah! - You've got great infatuation. - Listen, maybe it's like because I'm a European, right? Like, we're on the beach, half naked. You know, it's like, I don't have the same relationship to that type of thing. - It's not so problematic for me. - Yeah. - I'm like, show me your results. I'll tell you what I do. Isn't that good, you know? - And I mean, if the only fans is popping. - I'll be looking at them and I'll show you the data. - Let me see the data. - Are you running that thing, Marc? (laughing) - Let me see what your pain points are. - And you imagine. - Can you imagine? Everyone hates working with your top performing employee. Do you keep them? That's a quick easy answer. - No. - What? - No. - Top performing. - No, because they're never top performing if they're actually dragging down the overall thing of the team. There's no such thing as someone who is top performing and yet a disaster to everyone around them. Because people that are top performing, that raise the bar for everybody else. - When the boats, ships, go up. - Oh, ships, oh, ships. - The rides in with the boats. - Yes, that's it. - George Bush. - When the, when the, when the, - What is this? - When we once. - The rides in time, lift those ships. - All the ships. - All the ships, all the ships. - They all go up. - Everyone's up. - Well, it's good, it's good. - It's good, it's good, it's good. - Yes, no, the two things don't correlate. If I have a really excellent performer and yet they're causing some problems, I look for like what is actually having here. Usually you find like there's some jealousy, there's some misunderstanding. You want to talk to that person and get their behavior corrected. And once they understand what they're doing wrong, most people can turn it around. Most people don't actually have, they're not as reflective as you should have. - One of the things that I noticed you talk about when you were promoting this book was as you didn't want there to be this sense of toxic positivity, like everything's gonna be great, everything's gonna be great. - It's such a terrible waste of time. - But I'm also struck quite strongly by how optimistic, how positive-minded you are in every scenario we've had so far. - That's so funny. - Do you know what I mean? - Winston Churchill had this incredible coat and he says, I'm an optimist. I see little point in being anything else. There's so much to feel down about. There's so much that drags you down every way. And part of my job as a leader is to be that chief cheerleader. - Yeah. - You know what it's like, guys, we've got this really hard thing to do. We're going that way. Everybody come with me. And so that takes a certain amount of optimism. It takes a certain amount of clarity of judgment. I have very, very, very hard lines. - Yeah. - Extremely, right? There's certain things where I had zero tolerance. - Yeah, no, no. - It's just that there is, yeah. It's just that I actually think that most people have really good intentions. And most people with a little bit of guidance and a little bit of correction just need to be shown the way. And that's why I believe in, like, don't do the toxic positivity because you're actually not helping people. I'm going to tell you straight away. - This is what it is. - Just like Uncle Paul. I'm going to, like, act in the moment and I am going to guide you. Now, if you can't listen and if you can't actually correct your behavior, that's on you. But it won't be because of a lack of feedback. It won't be because I hid anything from you. - Okay, your best friend asks you to invest in their business. You believe in them, but not the idea. Are you putting your money in? - Don't answer now. Let's make our plates and head outside. You can answer out there. - Oh, this has never happened. (laughing) - I know that's right. - This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like maybe holiday decorations or a special gift for your boothing or even one for yourself. 'Cause baby, you deserve it. Apply for Apple Card in the wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch, terms and more at applecard.com. (upbeat music) - This is delicious. You cooked this for me? - Yep. - That was such a lie. - I ordered this for us. - Thank you, honey. - I appreciate it. - Thank you. - I'm glad you went to all the effort. (laughing) - I'm happy to see how much I mean to you. - No, listen. - Are you a host? Are you a host? - This house, when I walked in, I was like the first thing, the wind times, and then come on. The first thing I thought was I cannot wait to have my friends here. - Yeah. No, 'cause it's beautiful. - I asked you a question when we were inside. - Oh, yes. - Your best friend lets you know they're ready for you to invest in their business. You love the friend, you believe in them, but not the idea. - Yes. - 'Cause it's happened to you, what do you do? - Oh my goodness, this happens all the time. - Is that right? - Of course, listen, like I come from a family of amazing husbands, like, it's just, everybody I know has an idea. (laughing) You know, I have a bankable idea. Listen, I don't mix friendship and money in that type of way. - Okay, because we are friends.
- Friends, is that mean I'm going to invest in your business? Is the idea? - No, it means I'm probably more likely not to. I never would feel the pressure to do something like that. Now, of course, listen, I think that there's an expectation, certainly like given my upbringing and where I come from, like I'm bringing a bunch of people along with me, right? I look after my family, we call it the family tax in my house, me and my husband. There's just a certain amount of people that you have to look after. - Is that right? - Yes, absolutely. And it's fine, I'm totally happy and so proud of myself that I can do that, but by the same token, I don't think like your dreams are my responsibility. I am really happy to help my friends like with advice, with introductions, kind of go above and beyond in that way, but I think that business is something separate and I really don't mix up my money like that. - Is that right? - No, I'm very serious about my money. I don't play games. - It's not an accident. You become the first black woman shark on shark tank. That doesn't happen because you're like, "Yeah, yeah, who everyone who wants to go see." - Lucy Gosey. - Lucy Gosey. - No, it doesn't. And also listen, there's a responsibility because, hey, I'm a mother of four, but yeah, I have a big family, you know, I'm the eldest of four sisters. I have my mom, I have my nieces and nephews, and there's a responsibility to that family unit. Listen, I'm gonna take my friends on a little trip. I think that's a really amazing like privilege of mine, you know what I mean, that I can give people experiences, that I can splash out and be the one who's in charge of the holidays, but like your business, no, your business is your business. - Is your business? - Yeah. - I know, that's right. - Yeah, I don't feel bad about that. - Now, you talk about being the oldest of four sisters. - Hmm. - I wanna know a little bit more about your ex- (laughs) little face-off scrunched up. - It's a scorned-up face to every step. Anyone who has four like three sisters understands the pain. - Especially when you're the oldest of them. - Listen, the New York Times had an article years ago that said, "The least successful family unit "is a single mom of four girls." And me, I put it on the family chat and I went to bed and I woke up in the morning to like 5,000 messages. My mom was like, "That's so rude and disrespectful." My sister was like, "Mom, she's just sharing an article." And the other one was like, "No, she's not, "she's judging, ah, she hates that." And I was like, "You lot are just proving the point." Like, right now, this is the most dysfunctional shit I've ever seen on a chat, ever. We laugh in my family, we say like, "My mom's like the dad, I'm like the mom "and we have three kids together." - Yeah. - And so that responsibility is just like, I think it's the reason that I am who I am because I was very aware that it was always gonna be about more than just me, like from being a kid that I had a responsibility to the family and to my mom. And, you know, I just like skipped that childhood. - It's interesting 'cause I was reading the book and I thought immediately I was like, "Oh, she has as a kid stepped into like mom duty," right? There's naturally that, like, I don't know if it's necessarily resentment, but there certainly is that feeling of like, "Ah, I didn't get to be a kid." - You know, I never thought that, Scott. I never thought I didn't get to be a kid. I just thought this is what this is necessary. - That's just what I had to do to get through the day, you know, it's like my mom had to go to work and somebody had to make their pet lunches, somebody had to iron school shirts, somebody had to like get the kids out the door. - Inevitably, by the way, I would take everyone to school, turn around, come home and watch Oprah, like that was my routine. - I mean, come on now. - I was like, seriously, I'm gonna miss Oprah. - I'm not so bad at school, I'm not so bad at school. They hate me there. You don't know it, like that was my point of view. As a kid, it didn't feel like I was put upon. Maybe as an adult, I was like, "Ah, I missed out on some stuff." But by the same token, it's like, I can make a fool roast dinner by the time I was 12. I knew how to do it, you know, I would watch kids who didn't know to scramble a leg and I was like, "What is wrong with you?" Like I could run a full household. And I actually thought there was value in that, because that made me independent. It gave me the sense that whatever I wanted to do, it was possible. And I think that says everything about how I see the world, because I could be really down about it. I could be really bitter about it. I could ruin my relationship with my mom about it. Or I could just be like, "Well, on the flip side, look at me, look how capable I am." - Was there for a time where it did impact how often you called home? - Well, I don't know if that was good time to look up to the kids. I think my mom was a bit of a nightmare and for a while. (laughing) That was a tough relationship, because it's an untraditional one. And for a lot of the time, I fell on a par with my mother. Usually there's some hierarchical separation. And I was like, "What are you talking about? "I'm pulling my way, I'm bringing in money, "I'm looking after these kids. "Why are you telling me anything?" And so that, there was an imbalance. And I think that what happens when you make money as an adult, and you're not so reliant on your parents, and then that relationship flips, and you're looking after everybody. Of course, that creates an imbalance. That would be untruthful to say that doesn't create problems. - As I was reading, I was like, "Okay, so there's this experience "of you as a kid, basically being the mom at home, "your mother being the father, "going to work, coming home and giving you what I got left." - If that, she went to Bingo. (laughing) She didn't come over, give us what she had left. She was like, "I'm going out, I'm going out." - I got this on the main page. - I got this on for me. - I was on for you kids, yeah. - And the only thing we weren't like, it's so funny because, again, - This is so weird, God, I'm so weird. - The time was different. I was like, "She's not home, we don't have a bedtime." Like, it wasn't so drama-ful, my upbringing. It was like, my mom had stuff to do, and she did whatever she could to get through the day. There was no like, big reflective moment. I got older and thought, "I'm going to do things "a little bit differently." That wouldn't be my choice, but I had different means, and I had a partner, and my mom had nothing and no one. So she did the best that she could with what she had, and she couldn't give me what she didn't have, you know? And I want to sit around blaming her all day for that because that wouldn't be, that just wouldn't be productive. - Did she get to experience you in this like, - Oh my God. - This superstar business woman, how does she respond to the madness that is your life now? - I don't know if she, but you know, it's so funny. - She finished it. - She finished it. It's so funny because my final tour date was in London. - Okay. - I did it at the Hackney Empire. I grew up in East London, and the Hackney Empire was the only place that black theater existed in the country. That's where, like, if Chris Rock was coming to England, I could play the Hackney Empire, and all the local black actors started in that place. That's where they, you know, did their first plays, their first comedy shows, whatever. So to be in that historic building, and it was my biggest show, like being London, it was insane. So I did it with Jay Shetty. He was my guest. Jay comes, England goes mad, 'cause they never see Jay, and he says something about my mum, and my mum, like the Queen, literally stands and waves to the class, like this, and I was like, on the stage. - I don't know if she didn't sit down after 10 seconds. - But she's still there. - Signing autographs, you want to selfie, come on. - She comes back there, she tells it. - Oh my god, everybody loved me out there. I'm like, sure they did, how did I do? I don't worry about me. - Right, right, right, right. - So the after party, I think that my family, as a whole, are incredibly proud. We opened a store and regent street the skims the other day, and that was like a crazy moment, you know. - I'm real. - It's like, it's a big deal. But I think for the most part, my family are the ones who check me the most. - The group chat is insane. - Oh, it's unbelievable. You know, they see me, they rip me, they'll see a photo, they're like, oh, you are feeling yourself in this one, and I just wake up to like messages of my sister. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - That kill it. - And what was the response? 'Cause you put this book out, you said you knew that you were gonna ruffle some feathers. - Yeah, I did, but I never thought about it like that. I never thought like, oh, let me go out and say something purposefully. - No, no, no, no, certainly not let me ruffle some feathers. But I know that my perspective is not one we talk about a whole lot, right? I know that you understand that you say it in the book. Women in particular don't really talk like this, don't our in spaces where this kind of talk flows freely. So I know it's going to challenge quite a few people. I wonder how they handle. 'Cause you know, I can talk about you however I want to. - Totally, but you can't talk to no one else can. - No, my whole family are up in the comments like crazy. I don't even read it, but my team will be like, oh, la, la, your sister Rochelle is fighting in these streets. I am so, and listen, I don't wanna say I'm oblivious to it, but it's like. - You keep it moving. - I don't have time for that. Like, I've really done, I think it's really good when you have a conversation with someone and you start to understand what the thoughts are, but it's like, I do not mess around in the mess ever. Because it's like, again, when you write a book, it isn't like when you put an Instagram out and you bang out a caption and you go, oh, off into the wind, like, this book took two years to write. It went through a numerous edits. You know, you have the people from the publisher, you have an editor, you send it to your friends, my husband read it, you know, revised it a million times. So it's like, what I say in that book is really what I think. And if people disagree with me, that is completely fine, but that's not my problem, as long as I'm going to lose sleep over. - Right. - Like, as I said in the book, it's like, I'm not a people-pleaser. So if I don't please you, I don't lose sleep over that. It's like, you think something different from me. - Great. - Move on. And I really didn't think that what I said was that dramatic. I thought the reaction to it was dramatic. - Is that right? - Yeah, but I always think when something, you know, like, Scott, when something gets to you that much, I think your job as a human being is to go like, why? Like, why is this urking me so much? When this girl said, working from home is career suicide. What in that really upset me? So I don't know that it's my responsibility to explain it to people. I think that that's something, no, I think that's something that you have to work for. Like, why is that so upsetting to you? - In the book, you start about your relationship with your family, your sister's getting them up to school, and then this beautiful relationship that starts
to Oprah Winfrey. - That's fine. - I mean, first of all, right, like raised us. - raised us. - I will never forget. - raised us well. - Meeting her, and I was like, the first time I was like, she hired me, I worked on the very first live show on own, on Cobbone tonight. And when I had my first meeting with her, I was like, I'm so sorry. I know this happens to you all the time. But she was like, she grabbed me by the hand. She was like, it's all right, I raised you. - I was like, you know? - You know. - You know? - She know. - She really did. - My mom, she would schedule her appointments during her pregnancy with me around the Oprah Winfrey. - That's right. - So like, it's no wonder-- - You're right. - It's no wonder. - You know, and I'm saying, woo, from the womb, when people show you who they are, believe them. - Yeah. - You know. - Yeah, I could recount her whole story. I could do interviews as Oprah. - Same. - Like, I am obsessed. And I tell you what the amazing thing is about Oprah, specifically, is that she is the least disappointing person in the world, 'cause what you see, what you imagined, what you hoped for, she is all of that and so much more. - Yeah, impressive. - That's because she is. She's like, in your eyeballs, she's holding your hand, she's seeing you for that moment that she's giving you, and you're like, oh, oh. - Can't believe it. - Yeah. - You talk about that moment, or that experience of coming home to watch the Oprah Winfrey show. I think there is this kind of belief that happens also. I feel like kind of like a kindred spirit in you, and that like, you had examples of people, you were watching people, and we were like, okay, why not me? - Absolutely. - And then she calls you to do this book at her house. - Can you imagine in Hawaii? - You would do the Hawaii house? - Yeah. - Casual to the ranch. - I thought we were going to Manacito. - Honey, I've been there. (laughing) - It was for Hawaii, which made it even more crazy, 'cause I'm going to Hawaii for a day. And, you know, my team said to me. - I'm going to Hawaii for that. - We went from, we were on this crazy trip, we did like, from New York to San Francisco, to San Francisco, to Ireland, to Hawaii, Hawaii back to LA in three days, 'cause we had commitments either end. - Right. - It was like across the world like this, and it was, yeah, I mean, I was delusioned. - You gotta have your own claim. - Does something like that? - Absolutely not. I do not, listen, I am not frivolous like that. - What? - No. - Absolutely not. I am flying. - Sure. - You don't want me chartering all over the place to work. - No, no, no, no, no. I bet I have four kids. If I am flying private, it's with all of my children, 'cause I don't want to go for security and drink the milk and do the whole thing like that. No, I'm too tight for that. I am very frugal, frugal. I will do the math. - I'm like, if I'm like, no. (laughing) - I didn't think I'm a joke. They're like, are we gonna fly private? I'm like, no. - No, we are not fly private. - We are not, but no. - Yeah, I'm not, you're not. - No, no, no, absolutely not. - You get to her house in Hawaii. - Mm-hmm. - Not that you need a whole bunch of stamps of approval from anybody for anything. - No, but I did need that. But there's something about Oprah saying, I so see you. And I've never seen anything quite like you before. - Did she say that to me? - What the fuck? - She said I've never seen anything like you before. I gotta, if I got up and walked out the room, I said, I'll be there. - Yeah, are you kidding me? Like saying, same, same, same, same, same, same. I literally was like, as she said it, I was like, no. - They cut back to you, you like this. You had to pull a Beyonce moment. - No, I didn't. - You were like, (laughing) - Thank you. - In my head. - You're so, thank you. Beyonce does the view and they were like, and you are Beyonce and she was like, thank you. (laughing) - You're right. - So I am. - So I am. - No, no, no, it was crazy. That whole moment for me was like, and the great thing is, it was exactly as I had imagined it to be. It was really a special moment. As I wrote the book, I imagined like, what if you get Oprah? As I edited the book, I was like, take that story out because I don't want to tell Oprah about it. - And it was the first thing she brought up. - That's question. - It was the first thing she brought up. - I know. - And as soon as she said it, as soon as she said it, I was like, not the devil, not the devil lady. Not the devil. - Not the worst. - Nothing. - Gust in behavior moment of my life. - So let's start here. - You're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, you're like, no. - No, no. Let's talk when you're a grown-ass mean lady. I was like, (laughing) - Would people have described you earlier on in your career as a mean chick? - No, I think that that have said she has not mean for an extremely short temper. I was extremely short temper now. I just have learned to harness it and channel it in a slightly better way. It's like, you'll never done, right? It's like, I'm still Emma from E13. I'm still the same person. I've just learned to some degree. Even as I tell you now, I know my team are laughing because I had such an outburst yesterday. But whatever you lot, so-- - You lot. - I think that 97% of the people that have ever worked for me, and we're talking definitely over 1,000 people, would come back and work for me, would say they had a great experience that they learned from me and that I treated them really fairly. And that would be absolutely true. I think the other 3% would say that I was a complete bitch and they would be right too. - Is that right? - Because at the end of the day, it's like, you get what you get. And for anyone to sit here and say, I'm 100% all the time like this certain way. It's like, no, I have good days and I have bad days. I have good situations and worse situations. And I think that if anything, I'm unbelievably consistent. I tell the truth. I say exactly what I want. I don't mince my words. I don't think people don't know where they stand. And I think that's really reflective in the book that I'm a fairly straightforward person. - Yeah, and I think that's one of the things that probably caught so many people off guard is because they expected this to be maybe a flowery presentation of, this is how I made it in business. - And it was so cute. - A challenge to a lot of the ways, even the conditions that many people find themselves in today. But I am curious to know how you handle the critique of like, she doesn't get it. She's out of touch or even that like-- - She has privilege. - Yeah, and she doesn't understand the privilege that's working in her behalf because that's not in the room with us. How do you handle that kind of criticism, that critique, that challenge to like, why are you the expert? - I handle it pretty well actually because I'm quite thoughtful about it. You know, I do think that there is value to listening to people's point of view. And I do think that because of the way I speak because I'm extremely plain speaking, that sometimes the way we've been conditioned to kind of apologize for what we say before we're about to say the thing and the fact that I don't do that, comes back and bites me sometimes, right? 'Cause what people want me to say is, not that I'm a three hour mum, they want me to say, I'm completely aware of my privileges because I've earned the right to have childcare. That's just not how I speak me. - That's such an interesting, 'cause I'm doing it right now. I'm literally doing it. - Yes, because you're conditioned from a like cultural point of view, to literally make sure you don't say what's gonna offend and you don't say what's gonna get you in trouble. And, you know, I'm extremely direct and I have like very little time usually. - Right. - And I don't really feel a need to explain. And when you earned every single one of your privileges, it's really difficult to be like, yeah, but you know, like I understand how the privilege, it's like I created those privileges. I earned those privileges. Now I have them. I have a complete understanding of where they are. Like you never, when you come from where I come from, you never forget those feelings. You never, I wake up every day grateful. - I think you just read the street that you grew up on, like the cars don't have tires. - No, they don't. - Like they're literally sitting on blocks 'cause you have road by and taking the tub caps and the tires off of the car. - Yes. - Still to this day. - And it's so funny, 'cause when I went back, I was like, like that caravan was there when I was a kid. - That very same one. - I was like, it's been there for 37 years. I don't even know what to say. Listen, I don't try to get out of anything. It's, I'm thoughtful. And I think some of the criticism was warranted. But I also think a lot of it isn't necessarily about me. - You. It's interesting. - I just don't think it's about me. And I think that I can take a lot of responsibility. I don't feel that I am out of touch because I've earned a set of privileges that have put me in a different place. Because I think the fact is, it's like, I'm still telling my story. I'm still being really honest about the realities of what it took in my life. And I think it's really hard to hear that when you sit in a position where perhaps that feels so far out of your reach. - Out of your reach, also that we have subscribed to the thought that so much of it is out of our control. - A million percent. But I'm the dead opposite of that. But what you have to understand is in the same way, it's impossible for people to kind of look up where I am and imagine how far I've come, right? I see that it's really difficult for people where they are to see where they're gonna go. But we can't, like, do you know what I mean? It's that we shouldn't need to kind of like constantly caveat and apologize to where we are. - Within was this an effort to kind of meet more of those people more often in ways outside of your direct time? Because it feels like these might be conversations that you would have with someone in mentorship when you're trying to get them to encourage them to empower them to, like, okay, yeah, we know all the bullshit. We are aware of all the shit, but what can you actually affect the you? - My book was only an effort to have a record of my own story that was true and correct. Period. - Got it. - That's it. That's all I hope to do. It was really supposed to be like, how can I be truthful about the things that have actually worked with me? How can I be honest about some of [BLANK_AUDIO]
sacrifices that I've made. How can I tell the truth of the things that I do now in order to get through the day? Yeah, because I do think that when you look at Instagram like you'll get a different side of that because we don't Post the downtime so I was trying in the account of this book to say listen. Here's the balanced view of what it really was The truth like this was the 30-year version instead of the 10-year version or the five-year version or the thirty-second version But subscribe to I don't think my book was that too much. I think that culturally we just like to live in like La La land Is this time to wake up you got to wake up wake up wake up or stay sleeping and be fine sleeping but in this case We'll wait you got to be awake. Y'all who is the person that you always start with for your holiday shopping? Well, I always start with mom because I feel like once mom is taking care of everybody else is easy But have y'all started yet because I feel like it's time to lock in you got to know Who's naughty mm-hmm who's nice? Yeah, and most importantly who still owes me money and For everybody who survived the cut Amazon makes the shopping easy. I've got a tech lover a fashionista and kids Kids asking me for toys like I'm the one raising them. I got no kids But Amazon's got picks for all of them and at low prices so I can get it done all in one place and yes Yes, I'm definitely getting something for myself because I deserve it get ahead start now and holiday gifting with Amazon's low prices shop now at Amazon dot com slash holiday Oh, I've seen you on other shows I've seen some of the the comment sections and the responses. I've seen your sister go at it I'm gonna be honest with you. She she's a firecracker Some of that I didn't understand because I didn't understand the lingo But I was like I know she go and she's that they broke right now But I'm curious has some of the reaction in particular the negative Has it changed how you talk about certain things in the book? How you talk about you've heard me Scott when I tell you I said what I said and I meant what I said. Yeah, I've never backtracked I've never tried to explain I've said nothing different from what I said in the book because I wasn't out here to offend I was just out here to tell the truth and the the truth of it is that the internet Optimizes for outrage. Oh, baby people saw what they wanted to be outraged at But it's not the reality of the reaction that I got it's a reaction that I got was thousands of people turning up to my show every single night Yeah, the reaction is when I walk down the street post book. I don't go anywhere without somebody stopping me I don't go to any I only and my team will attest to this of course because people don't come up and like, you know They're not gonna be rude to you. I only get every single day at least five women come up to me and say oh my god Like you changed this for me. I did this. I think about this differently now. Thank you so much for your book I only get that side of it. Yeah, so the reality is it's like yeah We saw the discourse because like discourse is more interesting to watch online right? We don't want just a copy hands, right? That wouldn't be fun, but also the discourse is good because of course in her me I was selling books all the way through the disk. I'm not as fucking right I'm not as good. No, we have to be honest about it But it wasn't it wasn't hurt for it was just a good conversation and actually it was a conversation that needed to be had because Why people were ranging equally they were like wait a minute? Why do I think like this? Why is this relationship? Why I like I did start to see Conversation shift a lot of away actually now that I'm thinking about this There are some people who are hardcore closed or Inded in their conclusion of you. Yeah, right? And we're gonna reach that regardless of what they said I think and then there are people who are like actually hold on. Let me let me let me check Yeah, and let me let me get on something to something else and have been able to let I think come around to them The best parts what you start the book by saying take from this my experience my story my perspective What serves you leave the rest? Yes, you still stand by that. Oh definitely because nobody's experience or nobody's life is gonna work 100% and nor did I ever intend it to be that type of thing. I think it was really my attempt at An honest reflection at the things I've had to do yeah because that's why there's an entire chapter in there that really talks through The emotions, right? This is a business book at the end of the day But I really thought it was important to talk about the things that have held me back Yeah, because I think that people will recognize a lot of that in themselves. They'll recognize crippling fear They'll recognize being not able to get like Guilt guilt. I see equation guilt. Yeah in a massive way. Oh my god Right, and I see a lot of that in the people that I grew up with because they don't want to leave where they came from They love where they came from they love the people that Surrounded them when they grew up and there is a guilt associated to kind of like moving away from that But also there is just reality right, but there's a reality of like not just from a distance point of view But sometimes you need the literal separation in order to like forge a path for yourself And so I wanted to be quite reflective about the things that perhaps weren't so Easy to talk about but when you were talking about Pulling up to the kids school about that damn birthday. Oh the birthday crown You said what the first what the fuck is a birthday crown? What is that why I was talking to a group of friends in particular moms And they all were like these schools These schools every day crazy hair day For Jersey day. I'm like what what is happening? What am I my mum for God it day? We're good for that like no Like stop it like I can't it's just the most but also you know I'm like what is that doing at the end of day like my kids are very resilient Do you know what I mean and like they're gonna like just figure this stuff out myself Like you can also really sketch your own figure out what day is like, you know crazy hair day like we're trying to create Responsible in the human being Right that's that joke. There's a parenting lesson. I didn't forget You ready to play a game. Yeah, let's do it. It's hot as hell Cheers to that. Okay, mm-hmm. Don't pay attention to this quite yet. Okay, because we're gonna get to the game But I cannot let you leave here without talking about your partner in life and business the way that you describe your relationship The way that I hear you talk about you and it's like really it is a yam to a yang You know, I mean, it's really really cool. Sure, but I was listening to him talk about you how he sees Working with you living with you Partnering with you and so many ways that people talk about all the time like oh, how do you work with your with your wife? Like a muskie is like so it's like well if you manage a house in a family with your wife You're already working together. I don't see the distinction and when he said that they cut back to you on camera and you're like That's my man That's my man And I think there is something to the way he sees life and his upbringing his experience that really does also inform or empower Your dynamic together right sure there are not a lot of people certainly not a lot of men at his level Who think that way? No, they're really aren't and it's funny because you know First of all to get yens to do an episode of any pot Well, I thought it was also kind of yeah, I wonder what it what it took. I wrote a list of like 10 dream guests And he was on there and he said no, and I was like did this your thing? And I was like oh, you know, no, no, no, like so I got on I did it and maybe like 20 episodes in I was like listen You have to come because my audience needs to get to know me okay, so like you're a part of that you have to come and He when I tell you reluctantly he reluctantly came on and I was gonna make it all about our dynamic and business And I said what do you want to talk about yens? You said oh, I've got the shot and I said what are you talking about? He said I'm gonna talk about anxiety and I was up. Oh, okay, Mr producer. Oh, okay, so he came on and was like This is like this is what we're gonna do and we'll make it work in the context of like how people Can you know get through being in a workplace with anxiety and how is it super power if you're willing to look at it that way? It is exactly what he spoke about and actually to this day I would say every week a couple of people mentioned that episode to me and they will say, you know It really helped me that the way he framed it But that says everything about my husband because he and I have such an understanding like he knew how important it was For me for him to be on that show But I understood how important it was for him to come on and be in his comfort zone So that he's not that person, right? He's not like jazz hands like I'm here like that's it's not If he'd have walked in, I've been like is this my shot that is not him Swedish seems a Swedish man He's very very straightforward and extremely thoughtful Yes, you know, and I think he came across in that way like and that's how he's been in our relationship for 18 years Well, the one point he said something that I wrote down and underlined and then rewrote it again in another notebook about what happens when you have a Disagreement or you're at an in-pass with your partner and he said who does it matter more to like is this something that I Disagree with and I just disagree with it or is this actually something that you are passionate about you feel big feelings about Or that is really important to you. Yeah, why can't we try that? Who does it matter to the most that I I think that that's so applicable in so many relationships, right and it doesn't matter if it's your partner if it's your friend It's like if you love someone The very reason that you're in disagreement with them is because you care the most and so really thinking through that and like does this matter This much to me or is this more important for the other person and it's a great lens to put any type of disagreement Through do you know what I mean because you're like actually like I have a strong opinion but
and it matters to the person I love way much more. - And that's everything from what we're gonna eat tonight to negotiating. - Big thing. - Like it's big, that's like a really good little nugget. - Oh yeah. - And then I'm looking at you. - He's full of them. - He really is. - Where I see why. - Well you have to watch the episode. It's one of the best. - No. - Spire episodes ever. - I see why when you were like, love it for a site. And you were like, yeah. - And did you see him? He was like, no. - He was like, what? - He didn't even know I was for nine months. Nine months, that was like, oh hey, he was like. - Hey girl, how you doing? - Give me a little bit. - But it was so cool to see you. People, I think have this way of thinking you move through life. Like I'm boss bitch, I'm boss babe. I'm, this is what I do. This is everyone out of my way, right? I think people do have this idea about how you show up, how you present, and how that must be how you present in every aspect of your life. - Yeah, not with him. - No. I mean, your fever up in the chair, you were like, you were looking at your cars, did you were like, no, what do you want to talk about? You talk about what you want to talk about? There is something about y'all together that brings out, you're like. - Very good together. - And he's like, (laughing) - He's just amazing, like he's the person that makes me the most happy in the world. - He's incredible. - Yeah, it's the nicest thing. And I have an inability to do things that I find very easy. I can speak to anyone. I can sell anything. I can present to anyone unless he ends his in the room. Like to the point where like if we go somewhere together and maybe like we were at a conference this week that both of us were invited to and I was speaking after Oprah. Casual, she went off, I went on. Anyway, I had to tell him to leave. I was like, you can't be in the room of a hundred people. Like I was like, you, yeah. And it was a small thing. And I was like, you've got to go and like get a drink and you know, sort of like that. - What? - Yeah. - He's all right. - No, no, no. And he knows. He's just like, I'll be up in the room doing some calls while your things are everywhere. - He said, I'm not missing Oprah though. - I know that's a right man. - He's all right, I'm all right. - Hey man, he said, I want my hot moment. - Yes, he said. - Love it. Okay, we're speaking of. - Oh, what are we doing here? - Like billionaire. We, this is, this is a game we're playing. It's called Secure the Back. - Oh, I'm gonna be so good at this. - I bet you will be. - Well, maybe what is it? - It's trivia. - Oh, that's not my strong point. - Oh well, it is mine. Okay, so our game message is gonna get us our trivia. If you know the answer, hit your buzzer. If you answer correctly, you roll the dice, you move accordingly. Once you pass the money. - Once you pass the stack, you take the money, but you also take the question. - Oh Lord, this is a lot of production. - We're gonna, we're gonna. - You making me feel lazy. On my show, I just turn up, sit down, camera on. I'm like, chatting. This is a lot. - It's time to step the fuck up. - Seriously. Seriously, something needs to give me stacks of money. - Who once worked as a cashier at an Amish market before becoming famous? Jessica Alba, Cardi B, Gweneth Paltrow. - Jessica Alba. - Cardi B. - What? - You know what I thought? I was like, it's got me one of the grocery stores in the Bronx. Ben Calise. (laughing) - I love her. Did you see my show with her? - Okay, first of all. - Best show, Ed Burr. - I don't know whose hair was more laid. - Oh, I tried hard. (laughing) I was like, listen, she's the star, but I got to come to, like-- - What did she have on? What was it like? - Scapper, I mean, first of all, she looked, she just had a baby. And she came on, she made business. The stuff that came out of Cardi's mouth, I have to give it to her. She laid it down for the girls, make every follower a dollar. That's what she said. - Yes. And when you have that mentality, that's the perspective, or that's the point of Instagram-- - She's very thoughtful. - Absolutely. - She's very thoughtful. She actually came and she had thought about what she wanted to say, and I really admired her. I mean, I'm a fan anyway. I'm gonna go crazy Cardi down. But just to me, the other side-- - It is me, the other side. - I loved her. - Right? - She's so-- - Okay, wait, tell me. So what do you think about, you know, everyone is looking for, you know, they want to make my personal brand. I want to make this brand. I want to do this thing. I am, my Instagram is my brand, but also relying on like celebrity to sell. - Yeah. - What do you think of that these days? - Well, listen, I would sound so hypocritical if I didn't think about the correlation between fame and selling, right? We know of my business partners. So that's one thing. But it's very different from this idea of feeling like a personal brand is the most important thing. It's like, the work is the most important thing. The business, your reputation, what you feel. - The product. - And the other things come after. So you can't have all of that stuff in the front and a bang in Instagram and nothing to back it up. 'Cause Instagram doesn't actually pay your bills. If you're a creator, that's a different thing. Then Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, do the thing like do it all. But it's like, I think that we've just got to get a little bit real about the difference between like a hundred thousand likes and a hundred thousand dollars. I don't know what you want the most. I know what I want. - Ooh, we. - I know what I want. I don't know where we'll see where we get it. - Oh, that's five out of the game. - No, what's happening? You just moved that back, sir. That was there. That's you missed the money. - No, I skipped over the money, that's. - Yeah, you skipped over the money. - Oh, you get it? - Yes! - Open it to life on the money. Oh, this game is ridiculous. - Oh, there you go. - Okay, see you just win by this part. - That's not how it is in real life. (laughing) - Go ahead. - What's something you spend money on that's always worth the money? Travel, in particular though, travel with friends and family. - I completely agree. - It is always worth the money. - Listen, I completely agree. I take very long summer holidays 'cause I'm like a memory maker. - Yeah. - Like, I love, like, it's like, I want the holidays to be like, you know, it's like, the celebrations, that summer break, I think it's the best use of money. That and food. I love food. - You don't care about that. - I love food, but I'm gonna say a leather good over food because-- - Well, you did just serve me a takeout, so, yes, I guess. - It was delicious. - That's okay. - Yeah, that was delicious. And if I didn't hand you a leather bag, though, you'd be much more excited. - It's true. - See? So what I'm saying, leather good. Leather good, I get you every time. - No, no, no question. What does ROI stand for? My buzz is not working. That's return on investment, that's name. - No, that's not right. - ROI. - ROI? Oh, I thought you said something else. I'll return on investment. - He's trying to cheat. - No, return on investment, that's what that. Okay, let's see what you wrote, let's see what you-- Oh, three, 10, so close and so far. - Who said it? Entrepreneur or real housewife? I don't care what anyone says. Being rich is a good thing. - Entrepreneur. - Do you know who it was? - It was me. (laughing) - I said it, I said it, I did say it. I said it. Am I the guest or what? I think I said it, she's wrong, I said it. (laughing) - I think by any means possible, like I have to win. If I don't win, I'm gonna call this a thing. - Okay, well wait, speaking of-- - Who was it, apart from me? - Mark Cuban. - Oh, well. - Basically me. - My brother, yeah. - When he told me, he was like, send me an email and I was like, I'm not gonna send you an email, you're not gonna read that, you're never gonna-- - I know what happened. - He responds to every single email. - No, and quick. - Quick. - And it's him. - I said, is this like a chatbot? - Uh-uh. - Is this you, an update? You've uploaded you somewhere, some clouds somewhere, and it's like, I don't know. - It's Mark. - It's crazy. - No, it's unbelievable because he's so efficient. And he doesn't do bells and whistles, he's just like straight to the point. - Straight to the point. - Mark's superpower is that he's actually incredibly intelligent. And he's brain and the way that he works is highly complex, but he can distill any complicated idea down for anyone to understand. - Yep. - And that is like really special. - In my experience, a lot of people at his level are so untouchables, so unrelatable, so uninterested in anyone else's success. - No, he's one of them. He's right in there, Cuban for president. - Okay, now, this started with a housewife situation. - Oh, a lava housewife. - Did they ever, I mean, was it for real? Did they ever approach you? - Oh, they've approached me every season for four seasons. - And so, why not? - I watch reality TV, I don't do reality TV. (laughs) I'm a consumer of. - He said no, no thank you. - No thank you. - What are you most excited about reality TV wise right now? - I am, first of all, I like sometimes wish myself to get sick so I could just stay in bed to binge, like TV. I've just finished that girl's trip, you know, like the 20 year anniversary of all the housewives. - That was great. - Reportion, it's so-- - Porshia? - Good, can I just say that? - Porshia was amazing. - Porshia? - She is, she is excellent. But Luan, as the antagonist through the whole thing, I was like someone sit her down, like seriously, out of control, but I love me a housewife, like any single housewife, but mostly Beverly Hills. - How much would they have to pay you for you? - There is no amount of money. I tell you what, my husband would divorce me, period, and he would be like, listen, this is-- - Well then you definitely would fit in. You would definitely fit in. - I'm going to show you. And it's nothing against the housewives. It's just that I'm not made for reality. See, first of all, I'd be canceled in 20 seconds. - And-- - Well-- - 20 seconds. - I'd give you probably a minute and a half. - Exactly, can you imagine? You're not getting through the first episode. - What a scandal, that would be. - Yeah. - No happening. Oh, I get-- yeah, I was correct. - I can-- (laughs) - Not a one. - Oh, okay, four, four. - What is one thing someone said about you online that you couldn't let side? - Well, it was that thing about my husband being responsible for my success. That really pissed me off. But you want to know the truth of it. This is funny, actually. - Okay. - So people say their things and they leave their comments and they do the thing. It was what it was with this little meme. So you know when you wake up, I don't look at my phone straight away when I wake up. So, you know what?
You know, it's like I have my coffee, I do my workout. Then I come out of the gym and I'm feeling good, I had a good workout and I picked up my phone. I'm like, yeah, it's a day, it's like six and I've already had a whole day. So I'm feeling good. And I see this little meme and it's like me, giant head me with tiny body. And it's like Emma took the elevator to success. When I was little, and I was like, what the? (laughing) It was so funny. You said, put the camera on. I was like, dad, I'm gonna shut this down immediately. You know, it's so funny what gets you though, you know. It was that. What is it about that narrative in particular? That it's not the truth. But there's a whole bunch of-- It's not an opinion. No, it's not an opinion, because you can disagree. But there's a whole bunch of not true. No, but you can disagree with me on three hour mom. You can disagree on work-life balance. You can disagree with me. But don't lie on me. But a lie is a lie. A lie is a lie. Listen, we don't have like yearbooks in England. But if we had yearbooks, I would have been the most likely to succeed. No, we don't have them. That's sad. No, so we don't have problems. Now we have problems. We're back in the day we didn't have problems. Damn. No, we don't celebrate school like that. Like-- (laughing) In England, you're seeing the cow. Your parents don't see you. Nobody comes. There's no like special hair days. It's like, one bomb, go, leave. Goodbye. What was the name of this show? Adolescence. Oh, that's English school. They're in English. No, that's English. That's English. I just remember watching this. That was the best depiction. Is this what school is like us? Yeah, the hood. Don't mind where your school is. Just go and come here and chill, so you're still the hood. Yeah, these kids are bad as hell. Yeah, yeah, that was my school. You were just like smoking like all the time. Yeah. Look at the teacher like, what the fuck are you looking at? Yeah, well, you're looking at-- Like seriously. Don't grasp me up. Yeah, yeah, no, it's-- No, it's this. Don't grasp me up, please. Exactly. You're a sad man. No, no, you would ask your teacher to go out and miss, can I have a fuck? It should be like, seriously. (laughing) I'm telling the brakes. Yeah, that was it. That's our school world tonight. No, but it's so serious to me because it's like-- Sometimes it's just not the truth. And when I say that, it's like, I was always going to be successful. And I was successful. I had started a company. I had raised money. I had done a lot of things that put me on a path to success. Now, did I have a bunch of circumstances in my life that put me in a place where I could be successful? Yes, of my own making. Right. And that's where the story ends. That's where the story ends. Because nobody gives you millions of dollars because they like your husband. Nobody says she hangs out with the right people in the right crowds. So let me just back this crazy thing that she's not supposed to be doing. Right. That's just not how it works. You get what you get because I put myself in a situation. And I created the work. And I created the reputation. And I refuse to let anybody even think any differently. That's not us, right? No, it's a same straight. I don't know. She's to turn on the camera, turn on the lights. They said, "Little less banging." Yeah, little like flat, flat, flat hands. Flat, flat hands. All right. Next question. Which actress embroider youth-focused affirmations and mantras onto pillows in her heart? Jennifer Aniston, Neil Long, Jennifer Lopez. Jennifer Lopez. Jennifer Lawrence. Long, long time. You sure you don't know that? It's like this. Lopez loves an affirmation. Was she embroidered? Like her stuff? I don't think she's embroidering. I'm like, right, I can't imagine. Jennifer, the block is like, "Yes, literally, literally." She says, "Bah, let's just check it here because Jennifer Lopez, just as a case study, does the affirmations and the hard work." So I don't have one without the other. I've worked with her. We did "World of Dance With Her" and a series of other things. That woman. Million billion dollar work ethic. You're not going to outwork her. You're not going to look like that and not put the effort in. Bay B. What? I believe I am richer. OK, OK, all right, let's see what you got. Oh, yes. What's something you wish you knew about money before you started making it? This is actually very easy. I wish I knew how to put my money to work earlier. What do you mean? I like to invest, right? Because I think saving is one way. And I think in the beginning of you making money, the safest thing to do with your money is to save it. And I think once you get past a certain threshold, depending on your lifestyle, you want your money to start making money for you. And so I think that certainly where I come from, the first place that you knew to put your money was like inter-property. That felt like a fairly standard and safe way to do it. Yeah, American dream. Right, it's like you're going to have a house, you're going to have a mortgage, that, that, that, that. I wish I had really understood a little bit earlier that there were other ways to make my money work for me. Do you remember what you're early on? What your first productive investment was, maybe small, maybe not necessarily one of the big companies or something like that. But like do you remember what the first one you were like, oh, yeah, not investing in me, myself. You know, at the end of the day, the first company I had, I took a very, very low wage. And I invested the money back in the company. So I paid people way more than I was paying myself to grow the business. And that's the sacrifice and the things that people don't see, right? Because let me tell you, when you are put in your heart and your soul into a company and you are working those 16-hour days and you are paying some guy, three times more than you're taking out, like that. Humble pie. I mean, literally, you go home and you're like, this better work, better work out. And then it never works out in the timing you think it's going to work out because you're like, in a year, I'm going to pay myself. And better like three years later, you're like, oh, God, when is this happening? What would you tell that person right now that's on that line of like, I've got the thing, the business. It's not an idea. I've got the business I'm working now on the side. And I'm trying to determine whether it's I'm ready to quit the day job and go this full speed or not. What would you tell that person? So my first thing is always to have unrelenting honesty with yourself. Like you really have to say, like, do I have a business? Meaning, like, is this actually turning into something that I can say there is growth? Am I actually being honest with what that growth looks like and can the business grow itself, given the cash run way, given what's happening? So it's like, you have to really take a step back. And sometimes you don't have the ability to do that yourself. So you've got to surround yourself with people and find people like, for me, back in the day, it was like, I knew this guy that owned a bunch of stores. I could dry cleaners and a corner shop. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's the only person I knew. I didn't have any account and saw lawyers. And I was like, what do you know? What do you do? How do you make the books work? So you've got to find and put yourself in proximity to people that can be honest with you and take a step back. And the truth is, it always takes longer than you think. So being realistic about the timeline is a way of being honest about yourself. Nothing turns on overnight. It takes a lot of time. I've been doing this for years, years and years and years. When you have something, just know that it's going to take a long time, nothing turns on overnight and be supremely honest with yourself. I asked this artist, I'm going to ask you to view. Do you feel like you've made it yet? You know that idea that you had as a younger lady? Or even a kid? But I'm so unfinished. You know when people talk about gratitude all the time? That I'm so grateful. Like I'm so aware that I'm in the single best moment of my life so far right now. Like I wake up every day and I'm like, really proud of myself and I'm really proud of my family and I'm really proud of my team. But I think I'm just getting going. Yeah. I really believe it's crazy. Right up until 40, you're just in practice. What? 20s to 30s? Oh yeah, you don't even know who you are yet. Like you're just figuring it out. Now I'm like hitting my stride. So I think the best is yet to come and yet there's an awareness that it's like, I'm good, like I've made it. I've done the things that I could be so proud of. I wrote down an notebook, a new notebook after finishing your book. I do not take steps backwards in lifestyle. It's such an orienting because it's not just like things you buy, ways you travel, homes you live in. It's a way of thinking, it really is. It's orienting in a pretty cool way. I don't go backwards in lifestyle. I told my husband when I first met him in a kind of facetious way. I was like, Brian, let me tell you. Hey, hey. Thank you, me on a yacht. We're at it. We're at it. No, no, we're going up. You're even coming with me or I'm leaving you behind. Like this is not a thing. But you know, I think it's a really good way to orientate yourself because once you've reached a certain height, once you've done a certain level of work, right? It actually keeps you moving in the direction of, like, these are the things that I care the most about. And so it's not about stuff. It's like, I'm going to work as hard as I've ever worked because I've seen what that's done for me. I've seen what that's getting me. Absolutely. The great way I think I'm so glad you wrote that one down. That's what I told me that. I said the top of my notebook. Oh, I love that. Come on now. That's an Emma quote. You hear me? Yeah. I'm stacking the gash in. It makes me housewife with Beverly Hills. And you, that's a bravo. The day you've seen it. I already know it. Time's hard. The biggest contract ever paid to a housewife on bravo television. Would you know what I under-- Do you need any kind of orders of bravo television? Literally, I'll be like, where's Andy? Do you know what I don't like TV? I really understood this. And I loved doing Shark Tank. I loved doing it so much. But I don't enjoy TV because I don't like being on somebody else's schedule. It really hurts me to be waiting around, right? And I just don't have the disposition for it. So I'm like, well, I want to go and talk to the camera operator. I'm like, what are you doing? They're like, who is this? Well, I'm so glad we moved quick, because this is-- Oh, you guys are well oiled, machine. It's real, because she-- The TV, it's like, you know what it's like. It's like, hurry up and wait. Yeah. What are we waiting for? And why am I here so early if I'm ready? If we're not ready till 5, why am I here at 1? At least in America, you're so good at TV. You tried doing that stuff in England. [LAUGHS]
Okay, so you'll do the housewives in the housewives of London. Housewives of London. Don't be crossing me up, bro. Oh, yeah. Oh, my God, we're amazing. They need a housewives of East London. That would be awesome. We would be glued to that shop. Oh, my God. Is that be like Jordy Shaw? Oh, excuse me, yeah, kind of. Yes, I see, yeah. The black version. No, no, no, yeah, it was. It worked. It worked. Really well-dressed version. That part. Yeah, fresh. Fresh. Y'all, I got well with all and every fridge around this place. They are perfect for when I really need to lock in. It's an energy drink made with real fruit and vegetables with no added sugar and about as much caffeine as you have in a cup of coffee. And that caffeine is sourced from tea. That's tea. What does that say? That right? It tastes good. And it does good for the community. 20% of the profits go back into the community through health programs. So choosing this is really about generational wellness. Use the code houseguest for 15% off at wellwithall.com or on Amazon. That's tea. I'm so Gen Z. In Shark Tank. Oh, shit. How much of a company does an investor receive when they buy a 25% equity stake? No, I literally said, you said it, you said it, you said it, you said what she said. What? No, you repeated. You said a 25% and I said a quarter and you said it's quarter 25%, it's me again. It's me again. How many is a quarter? They're losing in your own house. See? See? It's terrible. Because Jesus knew the truth wasn't in you. You only got two. Unbelievable. Okay. Now, what'd you get in there? Three. Three in. She is so forgetful. Okay. What self-help or personal development book helped you the most? Oh. I am such a person. Like, I love this genre of books. Same. Can I do two? Can I do two? Yes. Okay. So the first one is the untethered cell by Michael Singer. Fire. So good. Fire. Little thin book. Half the stack of money. No, maybe a full stack. Yeah. Like this. It is the most valuable piece of literature. There are a deal post about it. And that's what I get. Tiction. Yeah. During Covid, I think. She doesn't post a lot. No, she doesn't. Right. So it's so beautiful. And actually, he's episode. He did a podcast episode with Oprah, which was, you know, when she did Supercell Sunday. Yes. She wanted to do a carry-zooka. A little bit. Power of now. Crazy. What are we doing? Crazy. All right. Then the next one would have to be Oprah Winfrey. What happened to you? And it is. The most unbelievable. It's about childhood trauma. Yeah. But it is. It's such a, it's really hard to say this, but it's actually such a positive book. Because it's so life-affirming. So you're not going to like get it and have a breakdown. You're going to get it and be like, oh, I understand. Okay. It's absolutely excellent. I love that. Two of my faiths. Two of my faiths. You're able to like shit. Like there's a reframe of like the shit that's happening in your life. Oh. The hardship. The difficulty. And you can come out of that like, oh, okay, this doesn't have to hold me back. This can actually be. But I look for that. Don't you? Yes, exactly. I look for those moments. Which feels like such an LA thing to do. Yeah. It was amazing. It was amazing. You took that time? I took that time. I'm not asking. Yeah, I did. I do that because I do it for myself. It's seven days and then you do two days, like, like decompressing after. Right. So two days alone to like process the thing. Cheese. And you kind of don't really speak for the first four days. I am a. I was talking to myself, brushing my teeth. I was like, morning girl. Like, literally. No, it was crazy. Really? No, it's really amazing. You develop patterns in your childhood. And it's like, we all know our stuff. But this is actually like such an indulgent way to like go for seven days. And like intensive. Yeah. And you do like a lot of course work before. And you really come out going, oh, I know me. I understand. Like, yeah. The book I was going to say is The Desire Map by Daniel Laporte. I have never read it. What? That's out of control. Get it on your list. It's a part workbook, part self-help and development. But the idea is you finish the book with a declarative statement of who you are and who you want to be in this life. Wow. Her idea was we flip our desire or the things that we want, like our achievements. Instead, we aim for the feeling that we want. So instead of the house, the job, the family, it's, I want to feel security. I want to feel generous. I want to feel loved. I want to feel sure of myself. And how can you practice those things now so that when those things come, you can. You can recognize that. Yeah, they're extensions of that. Not empty placeholders for what you hoped would come. You know, when you get the job and you're like, well, still not really happy. And now I got the partner and it's like, why are you really that fine? Desire Map by Daniel Laporte. Okay. Did it in your life? I'm going to get it. Real product or fake? KFC Crocs. Oh, it's just not multiple choice. Real. Yes! Oh! I knew the answer to that. Oh, oh. Mine had 'em. It's my first pair of Crocs, actually. You have Crocs? They brought 'em to their. Well, they're KFC Crocs. I don't have them anymore. The dog thought they were. It was chicken and ate 'em. Two. One. One. One. Huh. Which actress co-founded the haircare brand Pattern Beauty? Oh. Oh, Tracy Alice Ross. Mine was faster. Okay. Dr. Dale. What? What? That's what I'm talking about. And the first time I looked, there's no question there. Of course not. Of course not. Let's see. Let's see. Let's see if there's another good one. Bonus question. What's one question you wish people stopped asking you? The question I wish people would stop asking is probably like, how do you balance it all? Can you have it all? I don't. You can't. Early answers for the record. Did you know that that was not a question here today? That was not because it's a lame question. It's a lame question. And it's a question that's the preserve only of women. I think it makes people focus on the wrong thing. It's like orientating yourself around something that's really. Oh, and it must be impossible for you to be good at it. And also, I'm only interested in how you do it because as a mom, you must grapple with it. But I'm entirely uninterested in balance. Right. I want to win. I know this, right? I give I'm sitting around all day trying to make everything work for everybody else. It's like, no, I have my eyes on the prize. I do whatever I need to do to get through. And there she is. Secured the bag, everybody. And the green! From the robber! Just throw it in the bag. Hey! I love some money. I love all the money. Even the fake money makes me happy. There's no way I'm not going to get through the margarita, that's for sure. It's good, right? I mean, pissed as a fart before I go. Hold on, wait. Pist as a fart? Oh, I'm going to give you so many good English things today. Pist as a fart. Isn't that a good fun? But you can see it, right? You know what pissed? You know what pissed as a fart? Pist as a fart. That's a thing. You don't know that one. What is it? Are you taking the piss? No, when you're pissed as a fart, you're just drunk with this gun. You're drunk. You're drunk. How pissed is a fart? Oh, it is. It's hot. We won't be on here too too long. I can go, go, go, go. Wait, I walked into the bathroom after that first segment and I was like, Oh, my God! Oh! Can we talk about the fact that dragon fruit doesn't have any taste? Oh! I've never picked up a beast with dragon fruit. By the way, it's only cute because of the color on the outside. And you have the skin up, but no, it's not a good taste. It's a filler. Yeah! Uh, Nellan. But at least Mellan got a flavor. Yeah, like some Mellan's, when the time's right. Otherwise, when you get a plate full of Mellan and they're low on the berries, like, you know you just got a plate full of nothing. I'm not low on that thing. She's asking. That's how I get this. It's expensive here. Look at this. You see? Half berries. Hello. He's rolling it. So now, you limit paper wet or limit paper dry? Oh, okay. So I like dry flats. I'm dry drums. Dry drums? Yeah. I'm not trying to do all that to turn acrobatics. I'm not doing all that. Flipping around and I save that word for something else. He said he's still doing tongue acrobatics. No one likes the drum. Oh, it's so dry. What? Like a little drum doesn't like, doesn't look cute. I want to beat up. You see all that? You see? You see? See all that? Turn it down. Turn it down. Yeah, exactly. Oh, it's so good. I want to drive something. Yeah, right here. Oh, it's probably attached. Going. Can you imagine? I just want to tuck it right back. I don't even like, nope, nope, nope. You got it. You got it. I'm taking my notes today. See? You got it. See? I said that. Immigrate. Did you believe? My gosh. Thank you to Macy's response during this episode. That was a good one. Start with yourself, baby. I know that's right. Because if you don't start with yourself, where are you going to start? I mean, that is the beginning.
Podcast Summary
Key Points:
The speaker emphasizes that entrepreneurship often stems from a need for fair compensation, not a grand vision, and that she started her business because she felt underpaid.
She highlights the importance of honesty in leadership and business, refusing to soften truths for comfort or social approval, especially in challenging conversations.
A core belief is that women’s achievements are frequently misattributed to men or dismissed, and she advocates for transparency about personal experiences and realities.
She stresses the value of direct, immediate responses to workplace issues—like taking credit or pay disparities—rather than waiting or relying on formal channels.
The speaker shares that success comes from personal experience and resilience, not a perfect plan, and that failure to act on discomfort often leads to long-term harm.
She critiques toxic positivity, arguing that optimism must be balanced with realism and accountability, especially in leadership.
She values authenticity over appearances, noting that her business experience is grounded in real-life struggles, not idealized success.
She believes in clear, direct communication as a tool for growth, especially when confronting issues like imbalanced pay, workplace dynamics, or personal values.
Summary:
The speaker, a successful entrepreneur and New York Times bestselling author, shares her journey and philosophy on building a business and leading with authenticity. She challenges the myth that entrepreneurship requires a grand vision, explaining instead that her motivation stemmed from a personal need for fair pay and recognition. She emphasizes honesty in leadership, arguing that women’s achievements are often misattributed to men or dismissed, and that she refuses to sugarcoat uncomfortable truths.
She advocates for direct, immediate action in workplace conflicts—like addressing credit theft or pay disparities—stating that delay only allows issues to fester. Her experience shows that real growth comes from confronting discomfort and learning from lived experience, not from polished, idealized narratives. She critiques toxic positivity, insisting that leadership requires both optimism and realism, with clear boundaries and accountability.
She believes that personal success is rooted in authenticity, not perfection, and that transparency about one’s journey is essential for others to learn and grow. Her approach blends personal truth with practical wisdom, emphasizing the importance of direct communication, self-honesty, and resilience in building a successful, sustainable business.
FAQs
The speaker believes money is a tool that reflects who you are, not something that changes your nature. It doesn't make people mean or frivolous; it simply gives you more freedom and choice to live your values.
The speaker left because they felt their skills and value were not being recognized. They had a clear vision of what they wanted and believed they could earn more elsewhere, even if it meant leaving a job they loved.
The speaker addresses it directly in the moment, without waiting or going through HR. They use honesty and direct communication to clarify the situation, often leading to the coworker realizing their mistake.
The speaker values shared beliefs and vision over political affiliation. They believe in surrounding themselves with diverse perspectives but stress the importance of alignment on core values and vision for business success.
The speaker emphasizes that entrepreneurship requires action over perfection. You should get out there, try, and focus on progress rather than waiting for everything to be perfect before starting.
The speaker says it's not necessary and may be seen as a sign of insincerity. They prefer that employees use money to make their own choices, rather than receiving gifts, especially if it's not a close personal relationship.
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