EMERGENCY EPISODE: Deadly Attack in Sydney - with Jeremy Leibler, Nomi Kaltmann, and Nadav Eyal

[MUSIC PLAYING] So many great Jewish camp experiences have something in common. Foundation for Jewish Camp. Foundation for Jewish Camp brings together over 300 Jewish day and overnight camps across all streams of belief, practice, affiliation, and size to learn from each other, pilot, and scale new initiatives. Identified trends in national benchmarks and build a network of support for the field of Jewish camp. Foundation for Jewish Camp is helping camps innovate, grow, and thrive so they can provide exceptional Jewish experiences that become the foundation of a vibrant Jewish life. You can help too. Head to Jewishcamp.org/callmeback. That's Jewishcamp.org/callmeback to keep this incredible work going. You are listening to an Art Media podcast. I'm not sure I really believed that anything as bad as this could happen. We have felt under siege like many Jews globally over the last two years. We felt isolated and we felt exposed. And I think this is now the culmination. And we're at a fork in the road now for Australia, for our government, for our leaders, not just across the government, but all of our institutions. Officials that I've spoken with identified a global effort, meaning more engineered and organic to intensify hostility and hatred towards Israelis and Zionists, Jews, what they're saying is that only a power and they specifically mention Russia, China, Turkey, and Qatar can do that. Most Jews in this country feel this government doesn't have our back. And even if you're not inherently anti-Semitic, you are responsible for leading the country and you're failing our community. If the Australian government doesn't wake up and do something drastic now and really put at zero tolerance approach that we are begging for and have been begging for for two full years, there is no future for Jewish people in this country. (upbeat music) It's 4 p.m. on Sunday, December 14th here in New York City, as we approach the first night of Hanukkah. It is 11 p.m. on Sunday, December 14th in Israel and it is 8 a.m. on Monday, December 15th in Sydney, Australia, where a deadly attack has taken place against the city's Jewish community. On Sunday, over 1,000 Australian Jews gathered at a playground next to the iconic Bandai beach for a kabad-run event celebrating the first night of Hanukkah. At around 6.45 p.m. local time, two gunmen opened fire on the crowd. As of now there are at least 16 confirmed deaths and close to 40 wounded. The victims range from ages 10 to 87 years old and include a kabad rabbi, the main organizer of the event, Ali Schlanger. One of the gunmen has been identified as Navid Akram, a 24-year-old Muslim man of Pakistani origin. He was shot and is in critical condition. The others believe to be his 50-year-old father who was neutralized on scene. This tragedy comes amidst a dramatic rise in anti-Semitism in Australia with many fearing anti-Jewish violence of the sort we have just witnessed would occur. One community member told the Times of Israel, quote, "I'm horrified and devastated that this happened, but not shocked," close quote. Leaders around the world have joined in condemnation with President Trump calling the event a, quote, "purely anti-Semitic attack." Before we dive into today's conversation, I do want to say a word about the kabad family, the kabad community. I'm sure many of our listeners have encountered kabad rabbis and revitzons in their own communities on their kids' college campuses and when they travel around the world. Kabad emissaries never say no. Even when it means bringing Jewish life to the farthest flung place you can imagine and too often these Jewish lamplighters who don't hide their identity are the victims of terrorism. In 2008, we saw the senseless murder of Rabbi Gavriel and Rifki Holsberg in Mumbai, India. Just last year, we mourned the loss of Rabbi Svee Kogan murdered by terrorists in Abu Dhabi and now we mourned Rabbi Schlinger. My message to our call me back community is simple. First, hug your rabbi and rebits in this week and thank them for devoting themselves to Jewish flourishing. And whenever you can, stand with them as they build Jewish pride in the public square, always, but especially now during the Hanukkah holiday. To discuss the horror that unfolded in Sydney, we are joined by two members of the local Jewish community, Jeremy Leibler, president of the Zionist Federation of Australia, and Nomi Kultman, Australian lawyer and journalist who writes for the times of Israel, Aharetz, and is also the Australia correspondent for Tablet magazine. We're also joined by our media contributor, Nadavael, who joins us from Israel. Jeremy Nomi, welcome to the podcast for the first time. I am sorry, these are the circumstances and which we are talking for the first time. I want to jump right into what we know. So Nomi, I'll start with you just to get a sense of what we know as of now. Can you tell us everything we know about what unfolded? So right now in Australia, it's summertime. Hanukkah actually comes in very late here. And last Friday, most of the Jewish schools finished up for the year because it's the long summer holidays. So perfect timing for Hanukkah. It's beautiful weather right now outside. And Sunday evening being the first night of Hanukkah meant all across Australia. They were beautiful Hanukkah events. And it's very common to do an event on the beach. So in Sydney, almost every year, they run a beautiful public menorah lighting on Bondai beach, one of the most iconic and beautiful tourist locations in Australia. And there was about 1,000 people, young people, old people, children who came together for an event run by the Khabad of Bondai with a public Hanukkah menorah lighting. And at around 6.45 pm, it appears that two men came with guns and started shooting and targeting the Jewish people who are at this Hanukkah event. And I want to be really clear, gun violence of this nature in Australia is unheard of. We, in 1996, we had one of the worst massacres in Australia in history in Port Arthur in Tasmania. And after that, there was bipartisan agreement that Australia should get rid of its guns. So people had to surrender their weapons, a national registry of firearms was set up. So to have gun violence of this nature is deeply shocking to obviously the Jewish community, but to all Australians who have not seen mass shooting of this nature in more than 30 years. As it stands this morning, there's 16 confirmed dead, including two rabbis from Sydney's Jewish community, and a child, a 10-year-old girl they're saying has been killed, and at least 29 people with bullet wounds in hospitals, including a brother of someone that I know. And one of the deceased is a friend of mine, her father, who was killed at this event. So extremely shocking and devastating events for our community in Australia, which are unprecedented, not just for the Jewish community, but for the general Australian community as well. And I understand one of the victims was a survivor of the Holocaust? Well, if you understand the migration patterns of how Jews came to this country, it's not entirely surprising that a Holocaust survivor was killed. Outside of Israel, Melbourne had the highest per capita number of Holocaust survivors who settled here, and in part Australia was an attractive destination because A, it's very far away from Europe. And B, this country has not historically had entrenched antisemitism or a situation which has made it unbearable for Jewish people to live here. So all of these developments and increased antisemitism are unprecedented in the history of Jews living in this country. But also, it's very shocking for the Holocaust survivors who, Duffka specifically chose this place because it was so far from Europe and they wanted their families, not to have to deal with the horrors that they dealt with for millennia, living in Europe where there was entrenched antisemitism. What do we know about the perpetrators beyond what I said in the introduction? We don't actually know that much beyond that it's a father and son and I'm sure the details will unfold slowly. But if these people are Australian citizens and you would assume that they are Australian citizens, it would be a massive tear to the fabric of our multicultural country, which has been founded on the understanding that people come from many places in many countries and they assimilate into an Australian, a shared Australian identity. So if these people have come as immigrants or refugees, perhaps, and they have chosen to commit violence against the Jewish community, it will be a terrible rupture, but it will also signify a worrying trend and perhaps shift in the way that Jews perceive their safety in this country. I guess the way that Australian Jews have always related to Australia is that this is an amazing country to be born in a lucky country. One that has always allowed Jews to flourish and occupy the highest levels of government, business, philanthropy, being Jewish has never historically been seen as any sort of barrier towards success. But if we're going to see other Australians targeting our communities and our Jewish way of life, I think it's going to cause a lot of Australians to really think twice about the future of our people in this country in a way that no one has really thought of before. Nadav, I want to bring you in. You join us from Tel Aviv where you attracted a lot of attention in recent days, where you reported in your weekly column about an Israeli defense apparatus report that you had access to that laid out the possibility of a coordinated campaign to spike anti-semitism globally. And the idea that this campaign was possibly orchestrated, architected by a nation state, so that all this rise in anti-semitism that we're seeing around the world, including what we've been seeing in Australia, was not exactly organic. What can you tell us about the report and the likelihood that the Sydney attack may have been a logical case study in what happens when this kind of work suspected by the Israeli defense apparatus is advanced? So Dan, within the Israeli government officials that I've spoken with identified a broad global and primarily artificial effort, meaning more engineered than organic to intensify hostility and hatred towards Israelis and Zionist Jews or Jews that identify as Jews. And there is something new there. We know Dan since the beginning of the war about the bots in social networks. We know about TikTok, nothing new there, but you probably noticed Dan and you have dealt with it. And people of Australia have seen it that there is a shift since the end of the war. So you would expect that with the end of the war, there will be a slowly downgrading of these responses of this kind of extreme utterances of hatred. That's not the case. And there was a change, probably saw the change they're focusing now on Jews. They're not focusing on what's happening too much in Gaza because there's a ceasefire in Gaza, but they're focusing on Jews. And you see this both in social networks. And specifically, the sources I've spoken with officials are talking also about what they labeled employing human assets, which means that they suspect that they don't only mean terrorists, but also opinion shapers that are somehow being used on it either knowingly or unknowingly. And here's the big deal, what they're saying is that only a power and they specifically mention a Russia, China and Turkey or a nation state specifically mentioned Qatar can do that. They say about the first states I mentioned that they can do this in-house then. They say about Qatar that this could do that through contractors abroad. But what they're saying is that this is an artificial attempt to basically enhance hatred towards Jews, towards Israelis and specifically towards Jews who identify as honest. - Wait, Nadal, I just wanna ask you, when you say in-house, what you mean by in-house is meaning some of these countries have the capacity within their own apparatus respectively to not have to outsource it. Is that what you mean? - Yes, that's exactly what I mean. - Now, I wanna hedge a bit about this because they're also saying, look, a lot of what we're saying around the world is of course, organic and natural in the sense that people are seeing images. There are a lot of minority groups that are Muslim, they feel affinity to what's happening in Gaza. They hold the Jewish communities responsible because they see that the Jewish communities are associated with Israel or because they don't care because they are antisemitic. So for them, every Jew is guilty anyway. And they're not denying this. So I don't wanna go, everything we're seeing is just a conspiracy in the dark. But what they're saying is if it looks like a state-led actor operating and it acts like it, they have come to the conclusion, this is not an assessment. At the pre-pil I spoke with are not like low-grade analysts then. This is a huge issue. It has been brought into diplomatic channels between Israel and other countries. I cannot name these countries at this point. In trying to somehow calm down, Israelis are saying to other countries we're saying what's been done and Israelis are trying to make it stop. That's one element. Another element, I just mentioned it and let Jeremy Onomi talk about that, is of course in Australia, you don't need to go conspiracy theory. You just need to listen even to this government in Australia that hasn't done enough that actually expelled the Iranian ambassador. And why was he expelled back in August? He was expelled because this Australian government found proof that the Iranians were responsible for trying to burn down a synagogue with people praying in that synagogue. So you don't need to go to an intelligence report. It's the Australian government which hasn't done enough in Amsterdam. That's what Jeremy can speak about this with much more detail than I can. That is saying that and they did something really out of the ordinary in international relations of expelling the ambassador. Let's take a short break to hear a word from our sponsor. Israeli researchers find that one in eight IDF soldiers discharged this year showed signs of severe PTSD. 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You are a central leader of the Jewish community in Australia. What is your assessment as to how the Jewish community in Australia is experiencing this moment? And then we'll get to this question that Nadav directed to you. Sure. Well, I think that in order to understand how the community is feeling, and this is very fresh, still of course, and we need to go back a little while. So Nommie's explained that we have a-- this is a post holocaust Jewish community. And I think if we go back to the 7th of October, because I think how we are experiencing this attack is intimately connected to what's happened over the last two years. And Cygrap, like many in Australia, as a second-generation holocaust survival, surrounded by survivors at the Shabbat table, it was more common than uncommon for any elderly person to have a tattoo on their arm. And I think on the 7th of October, for those 24, 48, 72 hours, before the IDF responded, when Israelis and the South were left to experience the barbarity of Hamas for Australian Jews, in addition to watching the horror that was unfolding in Israel, we got a sense as to what the world would be like for Jewish people without a state of Israel and without an IDF. And part of that, because of the post holocaust nature of the community, we are an incredibly Zionist community. We are fundamentally different to the United States. We poll show 80, 90% of the community identify Zionist, over 90% after the 7th of October, said that when Israel was at risk, they felt like their lives were personally at risk. And we observe what's going on in Israel two days afterwards. On the 9th of October, we see people burning Israeli flags and challenging where are the Jews, or gas the Jews, or F the Jews, whatever the words were outside the Sydney Opera House, before Israel had even responded. We have had marches. We have had more people marching through the streets of Australia on a weekly basis than there are Jews in Australia. And I think observing this over two years, and in a sense, I was quoted many times in the press after the last two years, saying that our real fear is going to end in real, real violence. I wondered this last matter as a venture unfolding. I really never ever believed the scenes that were unfolding last night in Bondi. And so I think from the community's perspective, it is, you know, we have felt under siege, like many Jews globally over the last two years. And this is where we're at a fork in the road now for Australia, for our government, for our leaders, not just across the government, but all of our institutions. Do we want to preserve the Australia in which we all grew up? Or are we going to fundamentally see Australia change in a way that will not be welcoming to Jewish communities or frankly other minorities? Before I move to, Naomi, actually, can you, Jeremy, respond to what Nadav was talking about about the governments dealing with the Iranian, the threat of an Iranian conspiracy or operation and orchestration inside Australia as an early sign to how bad actors from nation states may be trying to make otherwise orchestrated events look organic. - Look, there is clear evidence in ICOL on intelligence authority. It might be clear that they had hot evidence that Iran was behind these terror attacks. Recent terror attacks are against the Adus, synagogue and some other attacks as well. So that's very clear. But look, I have no doubt in my mind that there is very significant authority to appearance in this country within the pro-Palestinian protest movement at elsewhere. These rallies that are done on a weekly basis cost a fortune. Across the whole country, Australia's a very big country. Just the coordination, the sophisticated coordination, the messaging, the bringing in an infiltration of parts, so many parts of civil society, particularly on the progressive side. There is just inconceivable that this has happened organically. Now, I can't prove these things, but there's no question in my mind that there is foreign interference and is it government or state sponsored, you know, I don't know, but this is not the Australia that I know. And I think it is important to remember that there is absolutely a silent majority, a sensible centre here who are outraged and horrified and the number of messages and calls that I've had from non-Jewish colleagues and friends. People I know, people I don't know, over the last 12 hours has been unbelievable. Naomi, how are nine Jewish Australians experiencing this moment? Well, I think that they're going to be very shocked that we could have a shooting of this scale in Australia. Like I said, it's been decades since Australia's had a mass gun violence event. So most people are going to be horrified. Some of the early reports that are coming out suggest that one of the shooters at least held a firearm license. So some questions for our authorities about whether he was being monitored or whether he had any sort of red flags that should have stopped that from happening. And I think that based, like Jeremy said, based on the number of non-Jewish Australians who have reached out to me from all areas of my life to say, this is not the Australia that we want to live in. This is not what we support. And we stand with you. And we're so sorry that this happened to your community. I think it's an indication of where average Australians are holding in relation to a shooting on the most iconic beach in broad daylight at a Hanukkah party, like this terrible. - Nadav, what has been the response in Israel where you are now? And what, I guess, one of the questions what's the response been and what can Israel do to help communities in the diaspora during a time like this? - So first of all, this is the major news in Israel absolutely throughout the day. This is covered all the time. It's opening every news bulletin. And it's being covered with a lot of pain. With speaking, with many people in Australia, Israelis have a lot of connections there, as a Jewish Israeli community in Australia. Some of the Habbat people who were, of course, Israelis, there were Israelis on the beach that were speaking. And this relates to your second part of your question, Dan. I think that the first thing Israelis should do is ask people like Germany, what do you want us to do? This is very important. And one of the things I wrote in my column to my morning, I spent more than a week in Australia just three months ago, I came in the invitation of the JNF to interview Elisha Rabi. And what I discovered is such a warm, zanest, encouraging, tightly knit community. It's very hard to explain to people that weren't in Australia and it was my first time. It's a very different Jewish community than anywhere else that I've met. It has this Anglo-Saxon, but it's Australia. It's very outgoing. People are extremely friendly in general, but specifically the Jewish community. Everybody knows everyone. And the devotion to the state of Israel throughout the war, to the return of the hostages. The way that every ceremony I went through schools there, and the way that Elisha Rabi was accepted, it will always open not only with a prayer for the state of Israel, but also for the prayer for the hostages and the way that Australians work for that. And the way that the Jewish organizations, as zanest organizations, are raising and have raised substantial amounts of money to help Israeli South and North. So what I wrote tomorrow morning and-- - You mean for tomorrow morning's paper? - Yeah, that's the main message that I have in that regard is that we Jewish Australians and American Jews, of course, have been at our side in times of difficulty. And it's our time to ask them, what can we do to help? And first of all, we need not to interrupt, not to do any damage. They know how to deal with their government even better than Israel. If they need Israel to pressure the government, Israel needs to do that. If they need Israel to sanction their government, to get the ambassador back, Israel needs to do that. If they need Israel to send security, coordinated with the Jewish community and with the Australian government, Israel needs to do that. And maybe everything I just said is pure nonsense. Jeremy will know better. We need to be very humble about this. Definitely not use it for politics in Israel because we use everything for politics in Israel, right? And try and assist this community in time of need. But I have to tell you a story about my time in Australia, which I think gives you an idea already. When I was there, it was in August, many people spoke to me about their sense of security in Australia. And whether or not they want to maybe buy a house in Israel, they don't know. Many of the Jewish community in Australia came from South Africa in the last 40 years. And of course, to South Africa, they came from another place before that. So there is a fluidity there in terms of security. And people were asking questions and let me just tell you one story. We were staying in Melbourne in a very central place. And I was staying with Ellie Sharabi and his brother, Sharon. Sharon, where is the Kippa? Ellie doesn't wear a Kippa. And we were leaving the hotel. And then a security guard that was assigned to Ellie Sharabi asked to speak to me by the side. And he asked me if I'm friends with him. And I said, I am. And he said, I want to request something. Yesterday, they went to the mall. And Sharon was wearing his Kippa. And he was alone. And he didn't see. But because I was there shadowing them, I saw that people were making remarks and that it caused the stirrer. And I was worried about that, said the security guy. So I want you to ask them to make sure that if they leave the hotel to the mall or anywhere else, they let me know because it's very important. And I said, you can talk with them directly with me. And we spoke all together, right? But it gives you an example. I was very surprised. It gave me an example of what's happening. If someone with the Kippa is suddenly causing some sort of even a little stirrer in Melbourne's main shopping mall, OK? So that's just one example. But I'll be really happy to hear from Jeremy and from Nomi. What do they think that Israel can do? Or even if Israel shouldn't do anything right now, I think it's a really important message. So Jeremy, I go to you. What would you ask of Israel at this time? So Nodap, I think you really hit on all of the right notes. I just said goodbye to my twin 13-year-old boys who had their permits for a few months ago. They went off to a football clinic and they were Kippot. And I did polls and hesitate after last night from my moment. I thought to myself, I'm not going to send them that signal that they need to be worried about that. And I'm not prepared to submit to this atmosphere of legitimate fear, especially after last night, and change the way we live. Last night, I had calls from so many friends, family, but also from leaders in Israel, which was really heartwarming. I had Yehri Lapud. I had the president. I had Nuf Tali Bennett. I had Yehri Golan. I had almost every political leader reach out to convey their love and their care. And that means a lot for the Jewish community here. It means a lot. And this explosion of Jewish people who had since the settlement of October one of the very few positives that have emerged from this trauma, the fact that it is reciprocal means a lot. But I will say this. In the aftermath of a terror attack like this, I believe that the only blame that should be ascribed to anyone is to the perpetrators and those who commissioned them. And I think even in a moral sense, it's incredibly dangerous to stop blaming leaders and governments for a terrorist attack. Now, the perpetrators are responsible for the attack. Governments and leaders are responsible for the environment that was allowed to exist beforehand. That yes, did facilities had a contributor to it. But they are very two very different things. And so what I would say to our friends in Israel and Israeli government is we appreciate your support. It means a lot. We need that embrace as a family. And I think leave it to the Jewish community here to engage with and advocate with our government and with the opposition and with the other leaders in our institution. That support is incredibly important to have you there. But ultimately, like in any situation, things are a lot more nuanced and complex than perhaps they sometimes appear from afar. And we have to call out whether I've been failures in leadership in this country. And there have been very real failures of the leadership of failure to recognize how serious this problem is. But we don't have a government that is hostile to the Jewish community. We do not have an anti-Semitic government. But mistakes have been made. And now is the moment. This is the moment now for our government. Are they going to recognize the significance of the events of the last 12 hours? But also to be able to draw the link between the demonization of the Jewish community that has followed the 7th of October. And the fact that we are a passionately Zionist community and this stain of genocide right that we've seen all around this world is this modern day blood libel has been used against us as a Jewish community here. I don't believe that our leaders have adequately called it out and come to our defense. And now is their opportunity to do so. - So Naomi, I want to ask you about that. I want to have you respond to that. Because my sense is talking to the leaders from Australia. They say we know what it looks like when our government imposes zero tolerance for something they're trying to disincentivize, discourage, or deter. And the reality is the rhetoric and the demonization and then even some of the violence and vandalism against Jews and Jewish institutions since October 7th, 2023, it was not treated with like the government's priority is zero tolerance. It was treated as we'd rather not have it than have it, but it was like they had like downshifted the urgency of shutting it down. Can you talk a little about that? - So I can be a little bit less restrained than Jeremy. 'Cause I agree with Jeremy that it's not a hostile government in the sense they're not inherently anti-Semitic, but I would disagree on the fact that there isn't causation between what we saw last night, 16 people murdered at a Chanukapadi and two years of a very weak, a very ineffective government that has been wishy washy on anti-Semitism who's rewarded, they just recognize Palestine, something that decades of Australian foreign policy had refrained from doing so on the basis that it was a two-state solution negotiated outcome. But it seemed to be like a sort of punishing of Israel more than a reward of Palestine to recognize it throughout. - Well, they did it while Hamas was still in control of Gaza and while they were still Israeli hostages in the tunnels of Gaza, they recognized the Palestinian state. - The entire methodology on how this comes about shows that this is a government whose priorities are wrong, who have contributed to the suffering of Jews in this country because it doesn't take a lot to realize that the reason why Jews keep getting targeted is because of rising pressure and tension around this war that's thousands of kilometers from where we live. And so like all diaspora communities, we're copying the brunt of this negative anti-Semitic reaction. And when you have a tepid government, yes, it's not inherently anti-Semitic and they're not passing anti-Jewish edicts, but they're paralyzed. I spoke with the former Olympian, Nova Paris, and she drew on a really great analogy. She said, "When you're the driver of a bus, you have to steer it. Otherwise, everybody gets injured when it crashes." And that's what it feels like with an inept prime minister and an inept labor party and a lack of resolve to clamp down. And I've spoken about this before in different contexts. If you were in Australia during the COVID-19 pandemic, you found out what it means when Australia says we are not going to tolerate anything in any form. It was some of the most intense lockdowns. Americans, you think you got locked down? You didn't get locked down. We couldn't leave our homes more than about 2.2 miles, five kilometers. The borders were shut for two and a half years, even to citizens. And if you did leave, you got to hit with massive fines, right? It was very punitive. If I'd be on my zone, I got a $5,000 fine. So when Australia wants to be tough, Australia can be ruthless and tough. If you look at some of our refugee policies and boat people policies where we put people on an offshore detention, Australia has a zero tolerance approach to people arriving through immigration that is copied throughout the world because of the zero tolerance approach. And when you're a Jew in this country and you are probably the child or grandchild of Holocaust survivors, or at least people who have come here seeking safety, whether it's from South Africa or another community, and you know that life has always been good here. And then a massive war breaks out thousands of kilometers away. And you're getting hit in your bakeries, your children's schools, they're setting fire to shools in the neighborhood. And you have a sort of ineffective prime minister who seems to be like, "Oh yeah, it's not good that that happens, "but a preacher can then incite against us in a mosque "and nothing happens to him." Or you have legislation on the books. On October 9th, when people were shouting, "Fuck the Jews or where are the Jews?" Why wasn't anybody arrested? Why wasn't anybody charged? Legislation like this already exists on our books. So what's the message you're sending as the bus driver, as the prime minister? You could take a zero tolerance approach, but you haven't. And when there's protests every week like Jeremy said, and they're inciting against our community, and yet they're allowed to sustain for week on week on week. And obviously you want people to have the right to protest, and it has to be a fine balance, but it often crosses that red line. And nothing happens. You could vilify Jews and get away with it for what does that tell people? And as Jews, we see ourselves often as a canary in the coal mine. It goes wrong for us, but it doesn't mean that it stays good for everybody else. When you're hitting our community, and our community is getting targeted, and things are happening that are resulting in very concerning behavior, to me it's a causation. You allow this permissive, and it's boiling, boiling, boiling. And the temperature's getting higher and higher. I disagree with Jeremy. I thought there would be a terrorist attack in Australia. I never anticipated it would be a shooting attack, which is very rare. And I never thought we'd be talking about at least 16 people killed. How tragic is that? That's way bigger than I would have thought. But I knew it would escalate. And I felt that I was at like most Jews in this country feel. This government doesn't have our back. And I wouldn't be surprised if in the next little while, we see a bump in Aliyah Jews leaving to Israel. Obviously not everybody's going to go, and people will still stay. But who wants to live in a country where all Jewish institutions are fortresses, but that's not how other average Australians live? Do you think that you will see a change in behavior from the government now? Do you think this is like an inflection point where the government realizes, wait a minute. If your characterization is accurate, which is what you just said, which is the government has created a very permissive-- just say a very permissive environment for hate-mongering and demonization against Jews. So it's inevitable that something like this would happen, a version of what we've just seen. Do you think this is now like a wake-up call? And the government's going to say, OK, we have allowed for too permissive of an environment of hating on Jews. If the Australian government doesn't wake up and do something drastic now and really put that zero tolerance approach that we are begging for and have been begging for for two full years, there is no future for Jewish people in this country. So if this incident isn't the one that forces this ineffective and weak government to do something to protect us, I can't tell you what a future for Jews in this country looks like. So my fervent hope and prayer is, yes, it does cause some drastic action. But am I confident that it will? No, I'm not, because I don't trust the Prime Minister. And I don't trust the Labour Party in charge. Jeremy, I want to give you a moment to respond. Sure, look, there's no question that the incitement that we've seen on the streets has played a role in the pathway to the culmination in this attack that we saw last night. It's interesting, I've been on a little journey myself when I think about how do we solve for this? And early on after the 7th of October, we advocated a lot for stronger hate speech laws, which have been introduced to both federal and state levels. We have some of the strongest hate speech laws in the world at the moment. In the United States, you couldn't dream of having this level of hate speech restrictions. We've had $120 million of security funding from the government to the Jewish community. And yet it hasn't really touched sides. And I think there are two reasons for that. The first is that ultimately this is really about leadership. It's less about what was said and it's more about what has not been said. And that's where I do, I absolutely agree with mommy that the government bears enormous responsibility for what they haven't said, for not coming to the defence of the Jewish community. When a few weeks ago, one of the branches of the Labor Party, this is not the government policy, but within Queensland in one state conference, like sort of one of the branches, a resolution was passed that effectively called for there to be a presumption of some sort of presumption of guilt of dual Australian Israeli citizens who had served in the IDF. I'm very proud to have many cousins and nephews and nieces who are serving and have served in the IDF effectively that they should be best cared for war crimes and we don't hear anything from the government, notwithstanding that it's not the government's policy. But then why not say so? When we see a resolution that effectively calls for BDS and we hear silence, where are they? Why aren't they coming to our defence? And so I think those are the criticisms that endure. And one of the things we know from history is when antisemitism comes out of the box, it's very, very difficult to put back in. You know, it is tempting to sort of hope and dream that there is a fix to this. That if only we had a prime minister or a government that would come out and have a zero tolerance policy, antisemitism would disappear and domestic terrorism would disappear and foreign interference would disappear. But that's wishful thinking. I do think it's important at times like this to take a very, very deep breath. We have synoptic in Alia. Is it connected to the rise in antisemitism? I believe in part. But what I think is really connected to is the fact that we have a passionately Zionist Jewish community that unlike other Jewish communities have always maintained Alia as the ultimate expression of Zionism, fundamentally ideologically. That's what we believe. And that's something I'm very proud of for this community. And I think we need to remember that for everyone, members of the Jewish community, for Jewish leaders, for our political leaders, the Jewish community is going to decide how to respond to this. And fear is reasonable, it's understandable, that I'm not prepared to hide behind brick walls in this country. I'm not prepared to hide our Jewish identity, which inherently is our Zionism and our relationship with the state of Israel. If we refuse to be intimidated, we will overcome this very challenging period. We will not eradicate antisemitism. No society ever has. But I think we need to focus now, yes, on calling on our leaders to stand up. But we also need to focus on ourselves inwardly within the Jewish community to ensure that our children are not defined by both the trauma of the 7th of October. They're not defined by this explosion of antisemitism. I grew up in a generation of, as not me did, she was a little bit younger than me, but I grew up as a generation of post-Holocaust Jews whose many, many of my contemporaries, their entire Jewish identity, was off the back of Holocaust guilt. I was lucky enough to have a very full bucket next to it, of Jewish values and all of the positive things associated with being a proud Jew. Now I can tell you, Jewish guilt doesn't survive more than one generation. So if we want to maintain a thriving Jewish diaspora in this country, it has to be off the back of Jewish pride, Jewish literacy, Jewish knowledge, right? And not to fall into this trap of obsessing about our enemies, and we have enemies, we always have, we always will. We need to fight it, we need to make sure we're secure, we need our government to protect us, but we as a community need to focus on the power of being a proud Jew and what that means for us. And for society as a whole, including the border of Australian society. But Jeremy, if this could be a turning point for how the government deals with fight anti-Semitism, while at the same time Jews are expressing more pride and more communal commitment in the way you're describing. And at the same time, there's still an increase in Australians making the decision to leave Australia. I mean, all three of those things could happen simultaneously. And in a recent episode of Inside Call Me Back, where we take questions from our subscribers, one asked me, what should Jews, this is a subscriber from Australia? Ask me what should Jews, Australian Jews do who want to make Alia feel a sense of urgency about making Alia for the environment that existed before the last 24 hours. And you can imagine, there'll be all the more sense of urgency, but this Australian asked me, but what if we don't have the means to make Alia? What do we do? And you're at the nerve center of the community. Is this something the community is thinking about about for those Australian Jews who want to make Alia, how to make it easier, more doable, more feasible, more seamless? Well, look, we just had a couple of months ago, the first Alia fair, where we had the Alia minister, we had a whole delegation from the Alia ministry come out. It was, there was enormous attendance. The Israeli government, to their credit, is conscious of this, they've just announced, you know, further tax breaks and benefits for those making Alia for the first two years, effectively not paying income tax. There are already existing tax breaks for many Alim. So this is absolutely something that is at the forefront of our thinking and with increased resources around supporting and marketing Alia. But I have to tell you, maybe this is just the old school ideolog in me. I believe there are far more reasons to make Alia that I connected to being able to live a full Jewish, meaningful life, right? In the third Jewish Commonwealth, than there are push factors connected to antisemitism. Because, you know, let's be clear here, if we really want to look at this from a purely security perspective, there are dangers living in Israel too, okay? So I think looking at things simply through the prism of antisemitism, it's tempting, but it doesn't really give us the full picture. And ultimately, you know, one can make Alia today that the joke used to be when I was growing up, if you want to make a small fortune in Israel, go there with a large fortune. That is not the case today, right? We have notwithstanding the war, we have, you know, Israel has, you know, a thriving economy, a high-tech sector that is booming, and there are many, many other reasons to go and live in Israel beyond the antisemitism that we're experiencing here in this country. If I can jump, you know, I would say I'm 33 years of age and about, I graduated from Jeremy's family school, legally off in the college, 15 years ago, and out of the 60 kids in my year, at least at the 20, live in Israel. So they're the smartest, most talented, the people that would have been the leaders of our Australian Jewish community are in high tech, are at working, you know, as doctors, as lawyers, super-high achievers. So Israel is already skimming the best and the most brightest of Australian jury, and to that Australian, that young Australian, who's worried about how to start Israel, the Israeli government will give you a lot of a sulquita bunch of benefits, two of my siblings live in Israel. In my current stage with five kids and more kids, your day job, I can't pick up and go, but if you want to go, go young and start your life there and you'll be successful there, but equally so, you can live in Australia and hopefully this government is going to get it right and protect our community because you may not have as rich a Jewish life in Australia, but you can still have a very meaningful and good life, or at least historically you could have. And up until October 7th, 2023, I always loved being an Australian Jew, albeit I was sometimes jealous of my classmates living and breathing the Zionist dream of living in Israel. I want to end with a quote from my friend, Tal Becker, who's originally from Australia, spent his formative years in Australia. He's a regular on the coming back podcast. Our listeners are, I'm sure, very familiar with him. He sent me this message on WhatsApp this morning describing what he thinks are the factors that culminated in this horror of the last 24 hours. And I'm reading here from Tal quote, it seems to emerge from a mixture of unchecked immigration, of really radical elements and epidemic of woke politics that is almost inevitably suicidal for Australian society and a system that doesn't know what evil is or is too afraid to act decisively against it. A deadly combination that is a breeding ground for hate and terror. In the pain of this moment, the country that raised me and I love so much feels lost to me. In my imagination, and through my childhood, it was the freest place I know on the earth. It was called the lucky country for a reason. It feels like it's luck has run out for Jews and as a direct consequence for everyone. Close quotes. That's from Tal Becker. No, me, I'll go to you first and then to Jeremy, just any reaction to that on this tension that is sort of undergirding this entire conversation and that Tal speaks to is this place you love, this community you love and yet this place that has been lost to the Jews and whether or not one can live with both those that tension of loving this community and yet this community being lost to the country in which it resides. I would agree with Tal that this is the lucky country and historically has been the lucky country. And I might be, I guess, hopefully slightly more optimistic where speaking to you the morning after one of the worst terrorist attacks in Australia and history and the targeting of Jewish people. And I might be naive, but I hope it goes back to the lucky country that Jews have always loved and lived. And Jeremy's right, it's impossible to get rid of anti-Semitism. But I think that if we have the right leadership, we might be able to at least reduce the tension that Jews are living with. And I would hate to see this as the end of the road for Australian Jews. 1788 was the first convict, the penal convict boat that arrived from England with 1,400 prisoners amongst, convicts amongst them six Jews. So we've been here since the establishment of modern Australia and we've enriched the fabric of this country so much through our contribution to medicine arts, politics, every area of life, Jews have contributed to. So if this was to be the end of the road for Jews, I think you'll see that Australia will also struggle and hopefully people can come to their senses and realize it doesn't just stay with us. If it's going downhill, their lives are not going to be the lives of the luckiest people in the luckiest country on earth anymore. Jeremy? Well, look, I think towel, as usual, and, you know, he towels my Mudruch in Panarkiva growing up. So I learnt a lot from towel and he's one of our most favourite and we're very proud of having him as an export. But he nails it. And I think hearing you read out towel thoughts, it really clarified for me if I had to describe where the government fundamentally went wrong at a high level. It was within only a couple of months, initially, they got it. But within a couple of months as we started to see humanitarian suffering on our TVs in Gaza. It didn't take very long and there was moral confusion. Fundamentally, as to who was on the right side of history, who was the barbaric terrorist organisation and who was the liberal democracy and the moral confusion they were unable to express dismay and concern for innocent people who were suffering without understanding and very clearly demonstrating where the moral blame lies for that suffering. And after that, that is when things started to go downhill, fundamentally, being unable to tell the difference between good and bad and right and wrong. And I don't think we're going back, Nomi, I'm sorry, we're not going back to the 6th of October, we're not going back anywhere in the world to the 6th of October. The Jewish world, the state of Israel, has changed forever. I think our collective mission is to ensure that the future isn't simply living in the misery of that trauma, but actually builds on, uses the trauma, and we use our resilience and our strength to build a proud, strong future for the next generation for all of our children. And I believe we can do so. Nadav, I want to give you the last word. So I'm just curious how you're processing all of this. And by the way, I just want to put an exclamation point on something you said earlier. And Nomi and Jeremy, you should know this. When Nadav went to Australia and he came back, it was at the end of the summer or September, he called me right away. And he's like, he was so moved by the experience of being with the Australian Jewish community. So everything he said, I just want to like triple, quadruple, underline it, he was just struck what an incredible impact it had on you. So I have two main messages here that I think are important. First of all, and this is something that we discussed and inside the Kroni bag, but not only inside the Kroni bag down. Jews living in the diaspora were always important for Zionism because they were the pool from which New Orleans will come to Israel or people will support the Zionist endeavor. And I think that we need to reform that approach. There's an intrinsic meaning to life, not only in Eritis Israel. We need to acknowledge that. And I acknowledge that as a fifth-generation Zionist, my family, it's blood has been spilled. And it has spilled blood in order to maintain our existence in Eritis Israel. And I can definitely consider myself a Zionist, but I can also appreciate the importance of these diasporas surviving and thriving and thriving and growing. Not only is an instrumental thing for the state of Israel. And the second thing is something that I told the Jewish community and that is that we, Israelis, should be extremely thankful and we should practice two words we don't say too much and that is thank you or even thank you very much for what these communities have been doing. And it's not about the resources. It's not even traveling to Israel during war, although that's a lot, and coming from Australia, it's much more Christy, it takes much more time. But it's about how people very far away, in the case of Australia, the furthest away from Eritis Israel, possible, kept thinking about us. And I think this is really crucial to remember. And I'm listening to this conversation. And of course, as an Israeli, the truth is that I want would want everyone to pack up and find themselves. It's my interest as an Israeli to live in Israel, but also my psyche as a Jew, as a Jew, is telling me these diaspora communities are important for our identity, for our meaning, even for our survival. We need them to prosper and we need to start giving back. Israel is strong enough to give back, to give back to these communities, whatever they need. They might not need anything. They might even need then something that Israeli politicians will find really hard and a hard sacrifice, which is basically sometimes to shut up. Maybe that's what they need at a certain point. I don't know. But this is my main message in that regard. And of course, sharing with the grief of my friends in Australia in this very terrible moment, my experience with the politics when something like this happens. And I hope I won't be wrong is that people will convene around the Jewish community now. That's my experience. I think that's the, by the way, the political thing to do. I want to read you on a different note. The announce made by Qatar. Did you see that then? The Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Qatar had a note, a response, a comment to what happened. And this was published hours, many hours, when we already knew the type of the event here. And I want to read that to you. The State of Qatar expresses its condemnation in denunciation of the attack that took place in Bondi Beach near Sydney, Australia, which resulted in deaths and injuries. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs deteriorates. The State of Qatar's firm stance against violent terrorism and criminal acts, regardless of the motives or reasons, so forth and so forth. No Jews, no Hanukkah, no anti-Semitism. This goes much beyond an oversight. This message is cynicism, because the Qataris know exactly what they did here. They know what they did here, and they did it on purpose. And this is the Qataris saying to Israel and saying to the Jewish communities abroad, basically screw you. This is what they're saying in this announcement. And if the Qataris think, and this is what they're trying to do, so of really legitimizing themselves, if they think that Israelis are going to forget, and I think Jewish communities are going to forget, they have no idea who they're messing with. We are-- people with a very long memory. And I think that they're doing a terrible, terrible mistake in the way that they are addressing this, because this country definitely intends to be around. But it cannot escape probably the ideology that is hidden behind all of these forums and all of the way that it wants to give itself an air of an international or regional leader. All right, we will leave it there. Nadav, Nomey, Jeremy, thank you for being here. Thank you for scrambling to come on on such short notice and coordinating across crazy time zones all around. The fact that we had a New York Tel Aviv and Australia time zone on every-- all intersecting at a moment that we could spend this hour together was no small feat. So I really want to thank you. And we're thinking about this community. We stand with the Australian community. They are very close to our call-me-back community and to the Jewish community here in the US. And obviously, as Nadav spoke to in Israel, and I hope to have you back on. But I want it to be on not during these emergency crisis rather demoralizing events. So until then, and it's weird for me to say this, but I'll say it. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] I hope you gain some kind of inspiration and expression of pride during this hug, even against the backdrop, and maybe especially against the backdrop of this horrific time. Thank you, Dan. And hopefully, we'll come on to do a feature on our vibrant, amazing community, not in a crisis like this. From your lips to God's ears. [NON-ENGLISH SPEECH] That's our show for today. If you value the call-me-back podcast and you want to support our mission, please subscribe to our weekly members-only show Inside Call-Me-Back. Inside Call-Me-Back is where Nadav El Amit Segel and I respond to challenging questions from listeners and have the conversations that typically occur after the cameras stop rolling. To subscribe, please follow the link in the show notes or you can go to arcmedia.org. That's arkmedia.org. Call-Me-Back is produced and edited by Lawn Benatar. Arcmedia's executive producer is Adam James Levin already. Our production manager is Brittany Cohn. Sound and video editing by Liquid Audio. Our associate producer is Maya Rakov. Community Management by Gabe Silverstein. Our music was composed by Yuval Semo. Until next time, I'm your host, Dan Cino. Right now, tens of thousands of Israeli veterans are battling PTSD. But only some of these men and women are able to recover through conventional treatment, because often what veterans need is not a therapist but a friend who can truly relate to their experiences on the battlefield. A program of American friends of Israel Navy SEALs, BuddyLine pairs Israeli Navy SEAL veterans with IDF combat veterans struggling with severe PTSD. The pair has spent a year rebuilding trust, confidence, and connection. And for more than 500 struggling veterans to date, it has been a lifeline back to society. For a brief video on BuddyLine and to support the program, click the link in our show notes and visit American friends of Israel Navy SEALs or search afis.us/warriorcare. Your gift, bigger small, can help someone find their way back.