Emei + Ricky Reed | How Radical Honesty Builds Great Artists

Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all-day-gum fee grip. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue. Just plump, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York. One of the questions I asked was, "What is holding me back?" In front of 15 people, I mean, that's just one of people. He looked me in the eyes and said, "You're music." I've realized that when you don't have a relationship that's truly collaborative and transparent, you're going to pay for it down the road later. I low-key. I was like, "That's hot." That's hot! I'm posting two to three times a day on TikTok. I'm going so hard, very trying to big brain the operation, you know what I mean? And I just didn't, I was just frustrated because I was like, "What else do I have to do?" If you just drive the fans wild, that's the best way to expand and then they do the work. This one is very different in regards to how it feels in my soul because I wrote it when I was like down bad, like grieving my grandma and just like a very sad year. It can be your engine, it can't be your GPS. Anger can be your engine, not your GPS, that's awesome. Ladies, gentlemen, and everyone in between, welcome to UnFamous, the UnFamous podcast where we tell the untold stories and the unsung tales of how your favorite pop culture moments get made, the art of collaboration. Today, we have two people who I know very well. Well, M.A and I are just going to enjoy each other. Ricky and I go back 13? That won't stop. That's quite a lot more here. A very lot. We were both artists when we met, that tells you how long ago it was. We were both trying to be pop stars. So instead of the awkward moment on the podcast where the hosts lists your credits, I used this moment for you to introduce each other to the world and brag about each other to the world. Oh, I love that. Isn't that nice? I'm obsessed with that. Yeah. Okay. Do you want to go first today? I'll go first. I'll go first. Let's see. I mean, M.A. is one of the most amazing, hard-working artists I've ever worked with in my life in my career. And I've worked with the greats and the first time that I saw her live, saw her connection with her with her fans. That was the thing. The fan community and how she led this community was the thing that drew me in. But the singing, the creativity, but overall just the drive, drive, drive, and everything she does is colored with vulnerability and honesty and it's just the kind of artists you want to work with. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Ricky Reed. Everybody. I mean, legendary, legendary producer, songwriter, CEO, dad of three, great guy overall. The lyrics will be extra good, by the way. So true. Great shoes. Great shoes. Oh, come on. But he's, I mean, made era defining legendary songs. He's worked with Lizzo. He's worked with Tenache, the Maria's, so many incredible songs. He actually, fun fact, wrote my sister's wedding song, "Love You For A Long Time" by Maggie Rogers or as a part of it. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a fun fact. Wow. But yeah, he's also just, just a great dude and a mentor for me and it's been so incredible working with him for this project and it's just, oh, I'm sorry to be here. Sorry to be here. So I mean, one really important song you left out of his credits, too, actually. Yeah, that's right. So R2 that we wrote together. It's true. Ricky and I wrote Halsey's "Bad It Loved" together. So good. And we wrote "Leon Bridges" Beyond Together. Okay. Yes. Which are two of my favorite songs in my discovery story. We're talking about wedding songs. I'm talking about wedding songs. Beyond? Yesterday I was actually listening to that one like a lot and I was like, wow, an incredible song. You guys killed that. Thank you. Just for the record. It was a special moment. It was, you called me like the night before and we've worked together. So you know how like I like, I like to talk and you hang for a while, but because you called me the night before I only had like two and a half hours. So I was just like, hey, Leon, nice to meet you. What's going on in your personal life? Yeah. Like we can't, I can't be nice about this. I need to know all the team now. Yeah. And then that was beyond. Yeah, it was a special one. Truly amazing. But enough about me. Um, how did you find each other? How did this start? Yeah. I don't know if we ever really talked about this. I'm not even that short. To be honest. I, I, I may have been scrolling. He was scrolling. Yeah. You know, a video popped up of you, just performing live. Oh, okay. And I just thought it looked amazing. And we, you know, I got in touch with like some of my team was already familiar with your manager, Steve Sparrow, who's one of the greatest managers in the music business. We now know. And we reached out to him. And his first thing was essentially like, we're just over talking to record labels. Like if you're serious, maybe, but, but I think, you know, you can speak more about it. But where they were out of that point, it was just like, they, but you guys been given to run around so many times. Yeah. It's an interesting thing when you're courting. I talked to my wife about this often because you're courting an artist. It bears a lot of similarities to courting somebody romantically. No, I, I am serious, you know, but I, I texted twice yesterday, so I'm going to wait two days before I follow all that stuff. But I'm not met, met him and then we flew out to see you at a bunch of different shows on that tour. Oh, cool. And then we were at the first show you saw. My first one I saw was San Francisco at the independent, cool, amazing play. The Bay Area is one of the best places to see an artist for the first time. Yeah. One of the ways. Well, it's not quite as, I mean, like the most fun place to see an artist is not an L.A. or New York. It's the Midwest or Texas or kids go crazy. Yep. The Bay Area has a little bit. I'm from the Bay Area. So I also just, I mean, also bias, but also bias, but nobody in the Bay Area, you have this thing where the kids are excited and thrilled and fired up and whatever. But you have a little bit of that coastal self-made taste maker thing woven into it. You just get this really nice mix of kids and I just thought the kids at your show were so sweet, so caring and my fans are the best. They're like, I feel like whenever I need them to like really go hard with me, they always do. And we just have the best time ever, yeah. So then you see her in the Bay Area. When is the first time you guys wrote together or when is the first time like it became like, okay, we're going to work together, like let's do this. It probably was starting with some sessions. Yeah. You know? That was right after tour. Yeah. So I think I met you for the first time right before tour. Mm-hmm. I remember because we had the same color journal, which was hilarious. You were right. That's right. I was like, I'm a notebook person. You were like me too. And then we pulled it up and it was exactly the same journal. I just was so crazy. notebook people like stop bragging that you can read that you can read your handwriting. Yeah. Because that's very disrespectful to those of us who if I were to write, there's no way that I can even read your own handwriting. There is no way. And I just think it's so cocky every time people come into sessions and like, okay, so your hand works. Okay. So you can read it. It's fine. It's not bragging. Sometimes when I'm writing things that I'm like embarrassed by, I'll write extra scribbly so I can't read it back. Ooh. I do it to get it out. That's what you mean in real life. Yeah. That's right. Like, you can't read it. For, for you, because I think obviously Ricky, it seemed like by like seeing her show and her fan base, you knew you wanted to work with M.A. And you were like, I got to do this for you in the session. When was the moment that you felt like, okay, maybe this is my creative partner and now business partner. I'm really curious to hear. Okay. This is a good question. Yeah. I mean, okay. First off, I remember Steve talking to me about you and I was like, okay, another person reaching out. I was like, you like, all right. Here we go again. A lot of people kick the tires. I kind of felt just like, imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all day comfy grip. No tightness. No stickiness. No residue. Just plum, dewy, hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new grippy setting mist from Maybelline, New York. Maybe it's Maybelline. I didn't really want to like talk to anybody unless I knew they were serious. And honestly, it was like, I think that you coming to the show was a big deal because I don't think you can really understand who I am as an artist until you come to the show. So that was like a huge thing for me. I was like, and I really keep track of who comes to my show. And to vouch for that, because you really wanted me to see Ricky wanted me to see your show at Fonda, but I was out of town. And so even before you and I wrote, we out the three of us wrote together, you really wanted me to see the show. I just unfortunately could. >> Totally. >> Yeah. >> So he definitely understood that. >> Yeah, yeah. >> That's a part of who you are. >> It is a big part of it. I think I do what I do to perform overall. Like I feel like there's a lot of artists who are writers first or, you know, are different things first. And for me, it's like performing entertaining. It's like number one, you know. >> We're feeder kids sisters. >> It's fun. >> We're feeder kids over here. Yeah. The show comes first. >> The show is the best thing. Yeah. So the first thing was the show. Honestly, when we, I think when we met in February and I was just talking to him, I think you were like one of the only people who like took notes on my past discography and had like things to share about it. And he was like talking about certain songs and gave me a lot of like very helpful feedback. >> Cool. >> And obviously that makes sense because he's a Ricky Reed. >> Yeah. >> But it was like, yeah. That was like huge. I felt like you were brilliant and it was very obvious. And I feel like that I can kind of tell, like when you're talking to someone, you're like, are they just blowing smoke up my ass or are they actually giving helpful feedback? So that was one. And then really, I feel like the thing that really did it for me, this is crazy. Okay. >> Whoa, man. >> It was, we were having a meeting at Nice Life and it was a big table. >> Nice life is Ricky's label for anyone who doesn't know. And it was like, I don't even know, I think it was like 15 or 20 people and Ricky was asking me questions and I was asking him questions and it was very like, it felt like we're both interrogating each other, but in like a fun way. >> Yeah, yeah. >> It was a fun way. And one of the questions I asked was, what is holding me back? Like what is the weakness that is like not allowing me to go further? >> You mean to ask that? >> In front of 15 people. >> I mean, that's 20 people. >> I did. >> That's brave on your part. It was, I mean, I like to ask that because then you can tell like, are people going to shirk away? Are they going to just say some bullshit or are they going to like, you know? And Ricky said, and this was crazy, he looked me in the eyes and said, your music. And like, I'm just saying, I think that some artists would have been like, fuck you. >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> But like for me, I was like, whoa, I love he, I was like, that's hot. I was like, I was like, into it, I was like, this is awesome, I was like, you just go down to like, just be so honest with me and give me like the, that's what I need to like grow. Like I need people around me who are not yes men who are like telling me how to break another ceiling, break another ceiling. Like I need that. >> And just get better. >> Exactly. And that was huge. >> Awesome. >> Say that when what is your thought process as not only the CEO of Nice Life music, records, whatever, publishing everything you do, but as someone who's then going to co-write with her and produce as well, when an artist asks you that, because that's a very serious answer. >> Yeah. >> I'm human, I get nervous like laying it out like that. But at the same time, I've realized that when you don't have a relationship that's truly collaborative and transparent, you're going to pay for it down the road later. Maybe you're going to spend your wheels for four years with someone who doesn't really want to grow, you're going to spend a ton of money, a ton of time. It's so much more valuable to be like, I'm just going to drop this now. And if they withstand the impact, then we have a relationship. >> Totally. >> And it's like different with everybody that I work with, but there's always some version of that conversation, where it's like, here's really what it's going to be. And are we going to be able to do this or not? And then some really aren't interested, yeah, some are. Which is fair, everybody kind of needs different vibes in their lives. >> When I think that's a really, really great thing to learn from even just for me, that's a great thing to learn from you right now of like, it is at some point in any collaborative relationship, a hard conversation happens. And so it's actually a great fucking lesson is start with the hard one and see if you guys can survive the first one, because right, why waste time if it's not going to happen? >> Yes. >> Yeah. And with us, at that point, we had spent a little bit of time together, so there was already like, you want to get to the point where there's enough trust built where it's like, this is clearly coming from a place of somebody who believes you, believes in you and all that. Like, it's really important that I regret relationships where I hadn't done that sooner. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, that's, it was pretty intense though. Like I was like, whoa, like I was like, yeah, I was like, I was like, yo, and then I thought about it and I actually like, because I think I've been, you know, as an independent artist before signing, like, it was like, I felt like I was hitting some ceilings where I was like, I am busting my balls every day. I'm like, going so hard, very like, trying to big brain the operation, you know what I mean? And I just didn't, I was just frustrated because I was like, what else do I have to do? Like, what else is, what else can I grow on? And I think he was absolutely right. Like I think that like, especially after this project, I'm like, whoa, like my music right now is way better than what it was before. And that's huge. >> Yeah. >> And it is the thing. >> And that's kind of the whole goal, right? >> It's always the thing, exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> When do you guys, when you're writing together, when do you know? >> Imagine setting your makeup, then forgetting it's even theirs. >> Meet new groupie setting mist from Maybelline New York. Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours, with flexible all day comfy grip. Just plump, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Maybelline New York. >> Maybe it's Maybelline. >> That like, okay, this song is actually a song now that we need to give time and give life. I think that that's the such an endless question for people trying to make music or make any sort of art. Is when do you know something is worth finishing? >> This is a great question. >> I mean, it's usually, it's usually a lyric melody thing. For me, it's pretty straight ahead, it's one of two things. If we say something, we're like, oh, that's really sad, that really hurts. It kind of makes you die a little inside. That's one. And then the other side is something literally makes me laugh in a way that it's funny. Like the first time we were like, don't ruin your life for Noah, bro, you barely even know him. We're like, that's so stupid and funny. So for me, it's either heart breaking or it's like a little bit hilarious and it's usually one of those two things that will say, I'll be like, this is a thing of that, or I guess I have one more, a title. If there's a title. >> Interesting. >> We have a little world of a thing and maybe we only have a couple of lines in mediocre track. We have a little world inside of a title. But I love about pointing that one out, I love all of them, but that one specifically is that can only the title, the like fighting for a really good title, and maybe you fight for it a couple different times, can only work in like a regular collaboration. Because as someone like me who sometimes I'm with the same artist for the bulk of their album, but a lot of times it's a day or two. And if a title was used and then it gets brought into a different room, then it gets tricky of like, who does this belong to? And I'm deep in the Rose Gray album right now and- >> So good. Thank you. The first single came out yesterday. We're very excited. We're excited. We're going to Friday, whatever. Anyway, with her, we have this one title that she's tweeted, so I'll just say it's called Save the Girl, that we've now written three different times because it's us together. It's okay to do that. And I think it's another like, just one of the benefits of like, you don't have to write with the same person every fucking day, but there is benefits to like creating a corpus-y. Because if you don't sometimes something amazing just gets lost because then like who owns it, it gets tricky, it gets weird. But I feel because sometimes in a magical title, if you know it's magic, you might have to write it multiple times. So scatterbrain, my biggest song, literally, I've written, I wrote that two or three times, like this same title, two or three times. And I was just like, I just really like this title and I've brought it in so I felt like whatever. And there were all different versions, two completely different spins, like it wasn't, now it's a love song, but initially it wasn't at all. And so yeah, it's definitely titles are huge. I mean, none of the opera and Noah were both rewritten so many times, like once you landed on the world of like, I like the feeling of a night at the opera, it's such a great title. Yeah. Okay, we're going to, we're going to explore every corner of it, I don't think that we did, you know? Yeah. We tried so hard to put that title in, it never really made it. That's the funny thing about that one. We love it. love the title. We love the world. We're like, let's see if we can say the damn thing in the song. And we tried like 20 different ways. It's a night at the opera. Night at the opera. Can you wrap it? Like, every time was so bad. So we just like left it out and it works. It's great. Yeah. It's great. It's great. When you guys are starting to write and you're stuck, right? Another famous question that we all get asked when you're stuck, how do you get it moving? Something that I'll say because there's so many different versions of stuck, but something that I'll say is like, you know, I think one of the most common places we get stuck is like on a rhyme or a phrase, we're trying to like get the square peg in the round hole. And we can't think of the rhyming word. I'll often say, okay, forget about the rhyme, forget about the melody. Let's just talk about what we're trying to say here. Yeah. That, you know, in a microscopic sense, that will, or you know, the other thing too is to just remind the artist or songwriters like, we can, we can blow up the last 15 seconds of lyric melody we did if it's going to lead us somewhere new. Maybe we're headlocked on this because. Yeah. But maybe there's, maybe there's no more meat on the bone. Yeah. We can throw that out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I'm, I've gotten less and less afraid to just be like, what if we just start over? Yeah. Because I'm like, we can always go back. Always. We might as well just start over, start something, and then, you know, fuck around, make something easy, fun, whatever. And then come back and be like, okay, where are we at? You know, and it's just refreshing and gives everybody like a second to breathe. Yeah. Yeah. I think that those are always, those are actually my two go-to tricks as well. Let's just talk about it. I got one more. Oh, please. Sorry. I realize I just cut you up, but I'm so excited to share this. I talk so much and walking, walking through a doorway. Yes. Walking through a doorway because people, because somebody at first told me like, oh, like, why does that have a good idea when I like get up to use the bathroom or something. And then someone else, I don't, I do not remember who told me this. They were like, it's about walking through doorways literally change your perspective. Just go through a door, come back, like do a few doorways and watch what happens. Wow. This was so much sense because I just see him walking through doorways. Things are clicking. Trying to get maximum entries and like this. They're, I mean, they're, they're always in the like, oh, I let me just go pee and I'll figure this out. But it probably is just the doorway. I don't know. Something about it literally seeing things from a different perspective. Yeah. Literally. No, that's, that's, there is, and also I think it's just like leaving because when, when, when there's three people, four people, two people like obsessing over something. Yeah. I think like the act of like leaving and coming back to it to think on your own can be, can be really, really helpful. Yeah. When you guys were making night at the opera, was there a moment where it was like, okay, this is the vision for the body of work. Or what, did you have a vision from this jump? Oh my gosh. That was pretty crazy. Yeah. So we like, we probably remember our first demo. It was like a minute and a half. The first demo of the opera. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was the super high energy. Yes. And we, I don't even think we had the pain and the gag and the drama. Nope. Yeah. Have that. Nope. Didn't know that. None of the three. Now that's on a lot of hats. Yeah. Yeah. But we sent this to a few people like to Steve, yeah. Your manager to a few people at Atlantic on the nice life team. And there was so much creative around the other songs, videos, video treatments, things that were getting well baked for this EP. And we sent everyone a 90 second demo or like, scratch everything we're going. This is the new direction. We just turned the whole thing around off a 90 second demo. We had a title and we had an energy and we're like, literally scrap the video, scrap this, scrap that. Wow. We're turning it around. I mean, I filmed a whole another music video for what's the point. Right. Like entirely. Like we were going to start. I feel like I didn't even have a project title yet, but I like knew what I want to do. And we like did we went down a whole path and then night of the opera changed everything. So I was like, well, obviously it has to be theatrical and dramatic. If we're going to call it night at the opera. So for you as the person who has to then go promote it and perform it, how helpful is it? Imagine setting your makeup. Then forgetting it's even theirs. Meet new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. No tightness, no stickiness, no residue, just plum, dewy hydrated skin that still feels like your skin. Try new groupie setting mist from Mavily New York. Maybe it's maple. That like all the sudden there was a whole vision instead of just like some soul. Oh my. I mean, I feel like when I'm writing a project, I'm waiting for that moment. Like the whole time. What's the difference between this project and stuff you've done before in your in your heart, not in terms of like playlist and blah blah blah, in your heart. Well, so weirdly, I do think this always happens to me where it's like the last second things will click. It's always happened this way. Even with rabbit hole, literally the same thing. I was like, one day I was just like, I think I went to Joshua Tree and I had all these songs running around and I just didn't know how they related to each other and then went into nature and was like, oh, and it's the same thing with this project. But this one is very different in regards to how it feels in my soul because I wrote it when I was like down bad, like grieving my grandma and just like a very sad year. So yeah. So I think that this project just came from such an emotional place. Like honestly, like release day was like pretty intense for me. Like I feel like I had like like grief is weird. You know, it's been like a year and a half and I feel like because the songs were I like woke up that morning and was like, I am so griefy today. Like I'm so sad and I'm like, I don't know why and I'm like, oh, it's because the songs are out. All the songs about this are out. Yeah. So so that's definitely different. Ricky, what you know, you've made so much amazing music as a producer writer and now an executive. What feels different to you about the stuff you do with MA versus everything else? Whether that's a process answer or whether that's a product answer. That's a that's a great that's a great question. I mean, one thing that's really really exciting about it and I think I've had this idea a little bit in the past with like some acts that I work with, but it's so clearly like it's just such a solid idea with you is like that we're we're the only people we're speaking to are the fans. Don't care about strangers. People that haven't heard you yet making new fans. We just want to drive your fans crazy. That's the only goal. And like I learned a little bit of that, you know, different kind of act by I learned a little bit of that working with the Maria's. Yeah. Working with Tinashe a little bit. Like if you just drive the fans wild, that's the best way to expand. And then they they do the work. Yeah, they do work for you. But I think what was also really fun is that this is one of the first times where we've been creatively, you know, working on a project together. But you guys really you I'm saying you guys you and your managers, Steve really allowed me and some of the team in on some of the big decisions about like the release cadence. Oh, yeah. How we're going to have this is going to be night at the opera. It's going to be a whole EP, but there's more releases. There's more coming. I won't say too much, but there's more coming that is all part of this world and collaborating together on it was so cool. Cool. Cause oftentimes for me, I just write and produce and then kind of cross my fingers, make a few phone calls, you know, like that had been the way things go and it's been really cool to be in the weeds with you guys on it. That's really cool. Yeah. Can you guys each and obviously your your journey together is new ish. Yeah. So you can go back to before you may try to can be your own separate journeys. Can you think about moments, whether it was a gig, a session early on that really made you like cringe. And now you like realize without that moment, you would not be the artist you are today. And I say artists is like a broad term, not just a pop star. It's right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Um, oh, man, the worst show I've ever played. Great. Let's go. Oh, yeah. Tell us the worst and then tell us how you overcame it. Oh, man. Okay, it was in high school. Um, I was playing our school meeting. Literally nobody remembers this for sure, but I will forever remember it. We're going to find out in the comments. It was Thursday morning at 10 a.m. and everybody had to be there. You know, that's the worst part. That's the worst part. Okay, man, the tour. I need I need more details. How large is the student body? It was like 1200. Oh, fuck. Yeah. I was at a school of like 140 people. So 1200 is terrifying. No, it was big. And it was all four grades. And I had played school meeting before I think freshman year, but I was a freshman. Everybody was like, oh, she's so cute. And everybody was like, yeah, you know what I mean? But then I was a senior. And I did this program called Young Arts. Do you guys know about Young Arts? It's great. But it basically was this awesome program I did. And then I was on school meeting. And I was like, I had a PowerPoint and told the school about this awesome program I did. Um, and I'm a theater kid. And and a try hard, so obviously, you know what I mean? And so I'm there being like, this is awesome. And then I said, not very good at talking sometimes, but I was like, I was like, it was the first time that I ever felt like I was surrounded by people who really cared about what they did. - Oh, so accidentally insulting the entire student body. - Yeah, the whole student body. - And the teacher, yes. - And everybody went, oh no, and I was like, oh no. And I was like, oh no, and then after that, I had to go up and sing a song. - No! - Hello, my little un-famous friends. So the thing about the algorithm, low-miss algorithm, is that she doesn't want to let people know about our podcast, unless she thinks that people love it. So if you follow this podcast, one of the old school YouTubers say, like, subscribe, and follow. If you do that for me, then you will help the un-famous message of the beauty of the art of collaboration reach more people. So please do just a cute little favor and follow this podcast and share it and do all those fun things. Bye. - That's cool. - What did you say? - What did you say? - It was a CS song. I think it was-- - Oh, so I really see it as like writes the hardest melodies in the world. - I think it was bird-set free, maybe? I don't know. It was one of the CS songs. And to be fair, I killed it. (laughing) - I'm sure. - I'm sure. - I killed it. But it was like the coldest, like, most, like, just upset crowd I've ever sang. And it was like a karaoke track. So it was like super not the vibe. And it was just like, oh my god. - See what I think you would you probably subconsciously and consciously learn from this moment is now, as Ricky's pointed out multiple times, you treat your fan base with the most beautiful love and respect. - Oh, yeah. - You learn what happens when you disrespect. - Oh my god. - It was so bad. - It was so bad. - Disrespective of them before. - It was so bad. - It was so bad. - It was so bad. So yeah, that one probably goes down in history for like a brutal one. - Oh, that's, yeah. - Because we always talk about, especially in theater, like, don't disrespect your audience. - No. - But yeah, it's normally like a metaphorical statement. - It was so nice. - It's literal. - Right. - And I was like, how did you mean it like that? Like, I was just trying to be like, this is awesome. Go sign up. Oh my god. - I love it. - Yeah, so now I'm very in tune with energy, I think, like, especially with the crowd. Like, I feel like I've always been in tune, but I feel like after that moment, I've been very like, I know exactly what's going on down there, you know? - Ricky, do you remember? - Oh my gosh. I was kind of running down like, there's been so many. And I have to, I bring them up for my kids now, like, being a father pretty often when something rough or difficult or trying happens for them, trying to say, you know, going through this stuff is what makes you strong. It's what makes you good, blah, blah, blah. But it's been countless for me. I'm thinking about, you know, the days of playing to empty rooms on tour, various rejections in all shapes and sizes, but the really, really, really cringe-want to use that word. I got a bad one for you. I mean, for a performer. You didn't relate to this time period, too, because we were playing around the same time. - Yeah. - So earlier than when we were signed, when we were both really wanting to be signed in the early 2000s, I had a band that was kind of a pop-punk amalgamation of sorts early to that early ought thing. It was my first time really taking a swing at it, coming out of high school early college. And we got what they used to call a showcase. I don't know if people do this anymore, where a major record label invites you to come down and do like a performance in a rehearsal studio. So we came down from the Bay Area, our band. We set up all of our gear. We put up our lights and we got our guitar set. - Let's go! - It was like, and it was a noon, it was a scheduled for noon at SIR in Hollywood. It's like brighter than it is in here right now. And it was for a guy running Capitol Records named Andy Slater. - Okay. - And we were all set up to go, you know, like bleach tips, you know, we're all ready. - It's not a show, he didn't bleach your tips. (laughing) - We're talking like Jinkos bleach tips. Like it's, it's a lot. - So this is early 2000. - Yeah. - This is like, love that. - Got it. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, that could be the end of the story. And it would be pretty cool. (laughing) - By the way, bulls and those things are coming back though. So young people are like, oh, you looked amazing. - Yeah, it's kind of vibe. - Yeah. - So we're so, we're supposed to play a noon. And obviously everyone's sweating bullets. This is a huge deal, Capitol Records. Oh my God, you know, and it's, and half-hour passes, hour passes, two hours pass. About two and a half, three hours later, the CEO of Capitol, Watson, with like a little entourage. And, you know, we get up on stage and can't really see them too clearly. And we start performing in like a little bit in the song. I'm like singing and looking, squinting my eyes. Like, I think I see Art Alex Zachis from Everclear, the singer of the famed, who's like, you know, the biggest bands in the world at that time. I was a big fan. And I'm like, and then while squinting, and we're doing the full on like jumping on stage, like trying to keep everyone hype in this like rehearsal studio. And probably a minute, minute and a half in, the guy who showed up three hours late just walks out mid-song with all of his entourage. Oh, except one. And I'm pretty, I'm pretty much ready to tear up just a combination of, you know, adrenaline and anxiety and all this stuff. So we finished the song and there's one guy in the back and he does a little clap, but it's Art Alex Zachis from Everclear, he stayed. And he was like, "Well, I'll say this. You guys got balls." And then he walked out. - What? - Arnor. - And honestly, honestly, I respected him so much for that. He gave us something. - Oh. - He gave us something. He said, "Well, you're courageous, and I'll give you that, but that was it." - Oh. Okay, so I have to share a similar story. - Please. - So my band, "Semi-Precious Weapons", "Semi-Pupu-Wee-Wee" to those who know us best, we got asked to do a showcase and a rehearsal space for Columbia Records in New York City, 2006, our original guitar player, who was an amazing co-writer for me, but just hated performing, hated a lot of it. - Yeah. - We rehearsed it before and he refused us to rehearse and refused us to even check and make sure his pedal board's working. - Oh boy. - And he's being really shady to all of us of like, "Guys, come on, I fucking got it, leave me alone." - Yeah. - Screw you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. We go in the executive who's thrilled, really hoping that his boss lets us, his name was Michael Kaplan. He's really hoping that the head of Columbia wants to sign us 'cause he loves us and he's come to see our actual shows and our fan base was similar for what I've seen in videos of your fan base, a very similar, very passionate, small but fucking mighty fan base. - Yeah. - And he says to me, "Hey, just make sure," 'cause I was very interactive with the audience. He's like, "Don't interact too much." Like, the guy in charge is very homophobic. - Wow. - And so it's already gonna be a hard sell. And if you get like, too playful with the audience, it's gonna, it's like verbally playful or even I would like jump in the audience and sometimes he's like, "Just don't, just fucking sing your ass off and call it a day." And I was like, at that point, right, it's 2006, the world is very homophobic and I want a fucking record deal. So I'm like, fine. - You're like, "Okay." - Then the guitar player's fucking pedalboard, of course, 'cause he refused to check it, is not working. So you got to kill time. - So I got to kill time. - I thought you were gonna say, "If you got to kill things, taking time, bum." So I have to kill time. - No! - My banter is basically just like drag queen banter. - Right. - That's the humor I know, that's the humor I slay. And so I just go into a full drag standup routine, 'cause I was in full makeup and feels like, and I just see the guy who wants so badly to sign us. I just see him like crumble and die and sing the songs and the head of the label left before. But we had at least 40, like the whole company came, like everyone in the New York office came. So at least like all the young people stayed for our set. - Yeah. - But it was, we've all had these moments. - Oh my God. - We've all had the moment. How do you guys, I got through the tough moments by just going, I know I'm awesome. - Oh yeah, I'm saying. - I'm gonna figure this out. Is that your defense? - Same. - I think after that performance, I got off stage and was like, "Hm, bug all these people." - I was like, "I was looking like, "Digga asked me for tickets one day." And I was like, "Whatever." But I obviously cried about it first. - Yeah, I think to do what we do, like maybe he knew. art in public, no matter how big or small the audience is, even if it's a fucking showcase for three executives. Making art in front of people, you have to put on a fucking delusional set of armor to survive it. Is that the same for you, Ricky, or how do you, how do you get through that moment? I mean, I, I do get angry. I get like, I mean, for, I think most people that would work with me in the studio wouldn't think that like, anger is a very present thing in me and drives a lot of my work ethic. And, and, but it, it really does. Like when I, when I, because I've faced this kind of thing, it's so many stages in my career, even, even now things come up where I'm like, we can't get a meeting or whatever the thing is, you know, I'm like, oh, it never ends. That's the thing. You think when you get to the top. Yeah. That people will stop being shitty. No, they don't grow. Get ready. Sorry. Oh my god. Yeah. No. So I mean, I just, it, it, it, it drives me. It's a motivator. But yeah, but, but it's hard. It still hurts. Yeah. Yeah. I, I have said quite frequently, on this podcast, I'll say it again, that I think anger is a great motivator. Yeah. As long as you don't, it doesn't like, it doesn't take over your whole day. Yeah. Yeah. If it like, if it like fuels you for like a couple minutes a day, awesome. Yeah. But it's, it's, yeah, it can, it can be your engine. It can't be your GPS. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. Anger can be your engine, not your GPS. That's awesome. Okay. I asked this on every episode. What song or it can be a video or a show video is definitely dating me and Ricky. I don't know how important videos are to your generation. But what is the thing that I like to say ruined your life in a good way of like, oh my god, I'm so obsessed with this song or this performance that I have to be a musician now. There's no, my, I have, my life has changed because I just heard or saw this thing. Oh my god. There's so many that I literally had like five flashing my mind already. I remember in college being so unbelievably obsessed with that performance of Yeba singing my mind. I think I watched it like eight times, like in a row one day. And I was like, whoa. Anyways, obsessed. That was obsessed. Um, I feel like as a kid, it was like Selena Gomez naturally, like Selena Gomez on the scene. I had, I had that CD. That was my first CD, actually, because my parents like didn't really listen to pop music. They're immigrants. So I like had West Side Story in the corridor, which was also a leaf. But, but it was, I mean, you can't, you can't go wrong. I know. Yeah. So anyways, yeah. So that's probably those are the things that come up in my mind. And obviously like theater was like just everything. Yeah. So I mean West Side Story and Selena Gomez on the scene. That's a pretty, like, lethal combo. That's pretty awesome. It's pretty lit. That's awesome. I think, um, I mean, I grew up, my mom raised me on a lot of music. I was also like total MTV kid. I got a TV on lay away from came art when I was like in second grade. And we just like wake up and watch. Do you remember the grind? Of course. I would wake up and watch the grind from like seven to seven 30 in bed every day as a kid. But nothing drew me to, towards like a career music until the first thing with some friends of mine said, we're going to, there's a band playing in like this field in the town next to ours. And I went and it was, I want to say it was a band called Project Something. It was a Christian hardcore band. There's about eight of us. They had PA up on like hay bales, like straw, and there was like eight of, and like the band was probably pissed whatever. No one showed up for this like festival, but I just saw this band in this field. And I just never felt anything like that in my body and saw, ended up seeing so many other hardcore bands, punk bands in the East Bay, and was just grit, like drawn towards this, this feeling that it gave me. Yeah. But with all the music that I had, um, been raised on, it, I didn't go just towards that, but that seeing that for the first time, um, what was it about it? Was it the performance? Was it the audience or just the whole thing? Like, yeah, I think it, I think it was, I think it was the volume. I don't think I had experienced anything quite so impactful. It was, I was probably standing two feet away from this, you know, like three, fifteen thing. And shortly after that, we went to the free Tibet concert. And I saw beastie boys. I saw pumpkins. I saw a guy, a giant guy get his nose broken in a mosh pit, pumpkins, free Tibet and in Golden Gate Park, 1998. Maybe it was that, it was all that live experience for me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think live is, is I think in so many ways live can just, I'm so glad that like people are understanding how important the live show is again to the artist's journey, because there's nothing more special than, um, art in front of people, even though it's terrifying. Yeah. It's magical. Yeah. I mean, oh my gosh. It's so, it's crazy that I can, and all of us, we can write something that we are feeling. And then a bunch of other people will listen to it and feel the same. I mean, it's magic. It's so weird. Yeah. Like it is spiritual. It's so weird. I mean, does not make sense. Yeah. Well, in this new era, and you're going to go out, you touched on a tiny bit, but I'd love to dig in a little bit more if you don't mind with all these songs about grief. Yes. How is it going to feel for you to go and play these songs? So I just did two small underplays with fans this this last week. Um, and it was like, I think the LA show might have been like, want top three of my life. Like it was, it was definitely special. Like something about it. And I think it's just, I really care about these songs, like in a very different way. Yeah. Like I feel like I, like every line I really, really mean. Um, and it's been really special to do that. Like even this, I think it was the, it was released day. So like three of the songs weren't even out yet. You know, and it was like, there were people in the crowd who knew the songs and had signs up with the lyrics that weren't out yet. Like it was crazy. And it was like, it made me just freak out because like the songs just mean so much to me. It's crazy. It's crazy. Ricky, when you're writing with somebody who's writing about something as vulnerable and intimate as grief. Um, and I know because we've talked about it, but you know, you're, you're losing your grandma, your grandma was like, very close. It was, it was a serious, serious person in your life to lose. Ricky, as like the producer, co-writer in that process, how do you approach something that delicate? Like we've all written a million songs about breakups or falling in love blah blah, but this isn't this is a different level. How do you, do you put your brain in a different place or is it, do you approach it the same? You got to be willing not to get a song that day. Yeah. You got to be totally willing to, to just talk and, and share space with somebody. Yeah. Um, I think that, I think that you have to put everything that they're saying and everything that they're feeling as, as a priority that goes so far above and beyond. Like that's, oh, it's always the priority with the artist's thinking and feeling and whatnot. But sometimes like, I do have a really hot beat that this would work on. So let's try to, let's move the tempo up and you should try this and see. Actually, it might be cool. You know, but like in something, in a situation like, like this, you have to really, really, really, you got to like clear the deck. And then you have to build it in a way where everything, like we did a, we wrote a demo. If you remember one of those songs, there's like kind of a ballad, it kind of had a feeling of like a, like a van Morrison into the mystic or something had that, that feeling to it. And I think that when I'm building the music around a subject like this, putting like a shaker on it or something, I'm like, really listening to like, is this have that texture? Is this have a mood? Is that if you're using a snap or a tambourine or any the smallest detail of an instrument has to be resonating at the same frequency of what the artist is talking about? It's just like, you just have to handle it with care. Wow. That I'm so grateful that my ears aren't don't work in that way. And like a specific because that would seem exhausted. At the end of a day like that, I will come back and my wife will be like, you're like, you don't understand the tambourine wasn't sad enough. It wasn't sad. Ricky, this question is specifically for you, but don't worry, I have those questions specifically for you after. Ricky, what do you think people, well actually I'm gonna get even more specific. What do you think artists misunderstand about about the artist's development stage, about the development stage. - Oh boy, what do artists misunderstand about the early stages of building a career? - That's a great question. Think Morgan, I didn't write it. That's it, Morgan, that's a great question. - Good luck. - I think that there are some artists who are very, very blessed to be songwriters and world builders that are world class essentially out of the womb. There's some that just have this thing. Like, I feel like, have I ever even worked with them, like maybe once or twice? I don't consider myself that way. I've had to work really hard to get to a level of craft that is at a professional level, but it's like, I think that artists often don't realize that the more time and effort and craft they put into really amazing songwriting and world building around songs in the early stages will make them go farther faster than just being like, I wrote some songs, my shit doesn't stink. I'm gonna post about it a lot. - Let's put it out now. - Let's go right now. - Yeah. - But what is the challenge though, is that I also don't think, now you have the ability of the room to rest on your laurels and sit in a creative, if you wanna get your career going, you do also have to get things out and get moving. So the approach that we take is trying to find some way to work so hard as to make really deep, meaningful songs that are powerful and impactful and also stay aggressive as fuck with how we roll it out. But I think that not enough artists really take the time to like listen deeply and think deeply about what it is they're really trying to convey. - Yeah. Yeah. - I think patience, I know this is something that I'm learning from Ricky and from everybody around me is like, I'm so impatient as an artist. I'm like, I'm like, not getting any younger everybody. You know, like that's how I feel. But I'm like, I do think you need, like what he's saying, just patience. - Yeah, something that we'll say often, I mean, there are times when it's like, okay, something just happened, we gotta get another record out in four to six weeks. Let's go, go, go. But there's a lot of times where we can say pretty comfortably, like, look, nobody is like waiting on this. - Right. - And know you have, like a burning fire in you to get this out, but like, let's get the video right or let's get the plan right or whatever the thing is. And that can drive some people crazy. I think it would drive me crazy, honestly, if the roles were reversed before we get it. But then what happens when we wait to get it right is you get a release that's like the way night at the opera looked and felt. - Yeah. - You know, we were going 100 miles an hour into something that we were kind of unsure about up until we took that little pause. - Yeah. - Really helpful. - How do you balance the, right, 'cause promoting yourself has always been a thing as a musician, as a comedian, as a drag queen, whatever, whoever we're lucky enough to talk to you on this podcast, we are in this world now where like, the content creation, very much, the promotional material very much has to come from the artist, it's not just doing interviews, it's not just going to radio stations. How do you balance the vision of an artist versus the vision of a promotional content creator? - Uh-huh. It's, I mean, it's two separate jobs. Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Yeah, it's two full-time jobs, like completely. And I think I think about it. I try to think about the content side of things very logically in the sense of like, I make my plan and I stick to it. I have days where I look at my plan and go, does this make sense? How do I do this? I have like a cycle that I loop through. I make it very like functionally like logistics oriented so that I can kind of separate my like, emotional creative brain and focus on artistry in that way so that I have like separation, you know what I mean? 'Cause like, I don't know. I think it's, I think that if I just check the box every day and I'm putting my stuff out there, then I am doing the best I can do. Yeah. And that is what I have control over. Yeah. And there are not that many things I have control over. So I feel like that is how I kind of like work in that world. And do you like, do you tell your team, hey, this is how I want to do it? Or does everyone just like, I just, anyone who's trying to learn how to pull this off? Because we all know there's this endless discourse about like, what would have happened if Kurt Cobain had to make TikToks? You know, and it's like, well, but he did have to go to like, 300 radio stations around the world. Like, there's hopefully always been a version of it. So how do you build that for yourself? Do you like set boundaries with your team? Or how does it happen? Nobody, I mean, content is like my wheelhouse. I feel like I actually don't, I don't really, I feel like when I get people's feedback, it's actually not that helpful because it actually messes with my flow and like, I know what I do work. So I kind of just try to keep it going. Yeah, I mean, and I asked for help when I need it, but it's mostly just run by me right now at least. So yeah, but I would say it's, I literally, if I don't, the issue with TikTok is that if I don't post, I feel unbelievably guilty. Like, I have like trained myself. Wow. Whereas like, it'll be 12 o'clock. I'll be in bed and I'll be like, I'm posted. And I'll have to pull up my phone and be like, I gotta post. Because there's something about, it's, it's my own pressure. It's not like anybody else. It's literally me being like, oh, wow. Am I really not going to send this lottery ticket in today? Well, I feel like I am the exact same way. Obviously, now I don't have to promote myself in the same way as you do, but I was such, I have like such like good student disease. Yeah, I used to, if I was, because I was such an overachiever my whole life. And if my mom would be like, Hey, you were doing this and this. Yeah, you're not going to do your homework tonight. I need you to go to sleep. I will write a note for you. Totally. I would try to go to bed and I would like sneak out of bed at 1 a.m. While my mom was asleep and do the homework because I couldn't imagine. And when I tell people these stories, they get so shocked that like a creative person was terrified about failing. And I'm like, well, but I didn't get here because I'm a genius. I got here because I'm upset. I don't want to fail. No, that's how I got here. I relate so heavy, I relate so heavy. In high school. Oh, this, this was crazy. So in high school, I like, you know, had to do the standardized test stuff, Lala, Lala college, Lala, Lala. And I never had any like test prep. What I would do is I would print full practice tests. I'd wake up at 5 a.m. and do a full ACT practice test. Before school, then cut out all the problems I did wrong, put it in a notebook and like write paragraphs about why I got it wrong and how I'm not going to get it wrong next time. I was like, a psycho. Self what it's the word like, like, yeah, like, I just like yell, I get myself out of it. Yeah, exactly. So nobody told me to do that, but I had to get the scores for some reason. I think they all saw you putting yourself into your own detention. And they were like, yeah, she's punishing herself enough. Okay. It's true. I got to put in detention. I got detention one time for a whole week. And I could not, I literally was the most embarrassed I may have ever gotten in my whole life. I couldn't believe it. And you know why I got detention? I got detention twice. But the second story is so dark that we can't ruin the day. But the first time was because my mom had me because she drove me into school because I couldn't take the bus because it wasn't safe for me because the bullying was so bad. Anyway, not I thought I wasn't going to get dark and I just did. So my mom had to drive me because I couldn't take the bus. And she made me late too many times. My own. Me. Me late. And so I got detention because it was like if you were late, like the by the fourth time they gave you detention a week. And I was like, oh my god, everyone's going to think I'm a loser. Me while you were getting cred being in detention. Literally. I was like, probably the cool thing that ever happened to me. It was like the one week the kids didn't make fun of me. Yeah. This is so embarrassing. I just had a wave of a memory and I'm I was debating sharing about just to share it. One time on a Saturday night, I went to detention, didn't have detention. I went so that I could lock in and do my homework. And I sat there. Damn. That's the over-achiever Olympics. The teacher was like, why are you here? And I'm like, because I felt that I would be more productive here. I'm so embarrassed. Oh my god. It's crazy. No. The thing about theater kids is we're all the same. Yes. We're all the same. Wow. Okay. So always end every episode with a game called gag or drag. gag means you love it. Drag means you hate it. Okay. Okay. gag or drag accidentally like you. - I'm making someone's Instagram post from 2018. - Greg. - Greg. - Yeah. - What? - Who would say guys? - Sometimes I do it just to fuck with people to mine. (laughing) - Gemini. - Gemini. - Gemini. - Yeah. - Total Gemini behavior. Just like, I want them to think that I was like, just stalking them. Even though I literally just like, I'm just gonna see what happens if I just go back and see what happens. - That's hilarious. - To me, because it's not accidental though. So that's why it's again. - Yeah, right, right, right, right. - Okay, gag or drag voice notes longer than three minutes. - Like, like, sending like an attack. - Gag, sending a voice. - Yeah. - Gag, gag, gag. - Ah, dragged. (laughing) - I love it. I have this friend who like sends me such long voice notes and I just listen and she's just walking around her house. - Yeah. - And I think it's fucking hilarious. - That's, I will not, I've begun reading voice notes. - That's fair. - I try, but then like, half time it doesn't make sense. - It's not right, yeah. - I'm guilty because I will send them if it's like a creative thing, especially when I'm like executive music producing movie projects. - Uh-huh. - When I'm trying to like explain why I made a choice or explain how someone has to fix something for me. Sometimes a voice note is the only way, but then I'm like, this is gonna be four minutes and this person's going to hate me. And I'm going to repeat myself four times. Morgan, normally you write these questions to make our guests uncomfortable, but you're actually exposing things about me today. - I need you to switch it up. - Yeah, they were too polite, you're like fuck this. Okay, gag or drag, songs that were supposed to be jokes becoming fan favorites. - Oh, gag. - gag. - I have so many. - Yeah, so many gag coming. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - So that's how do you, 'cause I know some artists are like, oh no, this is now like the most requested song and it was like a joke song. I wrote when I was 19 and now I'm gonna have to play it till the day I die. You love it. - I think it's hilarious. - Yeah. I'm like, I have a song called You Are Bad that was like, fully a joke. The only reason it came out is 'cause people on TikTok liked it. I was like, I was like, this is, guys, this is such a fucking joke. I just went on Rhyme Zone and went mother fucker and then all the lines were shared. It was like, no, don't. Anyways, it's hilarious. - Yeah. - I think I will play it until I die and I'll have fun with it. - Yeah. - Love, gag or drag trusting your gut over market research. Put your gut first, gag or drag. - Oh, gag. - Yeah. - Oh yeah. - How do you, Ricky, as if you haven't noticed, Ricky runs like a very successful, indelabel. So how often does like research come up in your daily life? Let's pick daily just to make it a more fun question. - Yeah, actually a lot. - Yeah, yeah, actually a lot, especially when we're looking at new artists. - Yeah. - And it's a daily, it's really like, I don't wanna say a daily battle, but it's like something I'm considering constantly and like, does this make sense for me or for us or is this just something that's interesting right now? And I think that what really like carves the path of the career is like how you respond to all those like, individual small questions. - Yeah. - But it's gotta be, it's gotta be instinct first. - Yeah. - So it's always been for me. - Love it. - gag or drag writing a song in an hour? - gag. - Ooh, Ricky. (laughing) - I'm new to this song later. 'Cause when I produce it's like only for like huge movies or some shit. - Right. - Like, huge is the wrong word. It's a huge project. I don't produce in the way you do like finishing records in the micro level. I only produce in the macro level, I should say. - Have you ever? - I love an hour. I think it's fabulous. I've brought up so many hits an hour, but I know that question always stresses producer. - It's really, well, it's really, it's 'cause it's kinda like what song? I will say this. I think any song that has been finished in an hour is a gag for me because they have been hits. - Right. - But there have been, I've worked with artists and songwriters. I've worked with people that are sort of like trying to do that, trying to write a song in an hour. - On purpose, like that's how it, you know it's good. - Yes, exactly. And I've been, some of the most important songs that I've ever been a part of were literally and people love to slander this. But I think like some of the songs that I've written that have taken, you know, a month, several months of deep thought, long conversations. Like, we're not really, yeah, like we're not really saying anything in this second verse and this song is so powerful and so important and meaningful right now in this cultural moment and you're a big artist with something to say. Like, and then, okay, you're in Europe for two weeks, you're coming back. But let's have another conversation about this. Like, it's not doing it in a way that you're trying to make a hit or trying to engineer something like fake or try hard. It's really like thinking deeply about what we're saying here and so I have had experiences to where the opposite can also really be true. But writing a hit in an hour is top to your experience. - I mean, it's the best magic. - It's magic, yeah. - Okay, gag or drag, keeping a lyric that might be deemed terrible, but you keep it because it makes you laugh. - Yeah, gag, gag, gag, gag, gag, gag, gag, gag. - I just miss humor and pop music so bad. And it's sometimes like when you, when rappers are funny, it gets the respect it deserves. When songs, melodic songs are funny, singing has funny lyrics. A lot of times people deem it bad. And I'm like, no, we should be able to be funny too. - Yeah, I agree. - Thank you. - I think funny lyrics are, they're making a comeback and it's time. - That's like when I think about the significance of Sabrina Carpenter, I'm like, thank you so much for just like having hysterical, fucking funny. And clearly, and everyone knows that to be that funny, you have to be smart. - Yeah. - And to do it in a song, you gotta be a genius. - Yeah. - So thank you for that. - Thank you for that. - Thank you, Amy and Sabrina. - Yeah. - "Gag" or "Drag" and "Artist" being told one more tweak. - "Gag" broke. (all laughing) - As a producer? - Yeah. - Just for, can we just get, just one more? - 100 times. - I can't, I can't say "Gag" or "Drag" to that. - It's a mess. - We normally offer a mess. I forgot to offer you a mess. - Yeah, it's a mess. It's a mess, it's a mess, a mess, a mess, a mess. I think if it makes it better, obviously, "Gag". - Yeah. - But what if it doesn't? (all laughing) - That's the whole relationship, right? - Yeah, one question. - Yeah, that's it. - That's it. - Me on one point, when we were finishing night at the opera, I called Steve, and I was like, I'm losing faith, man, I don't know. I don't know, we've written this chorus like 50 times now. I was like, I don't know. And Steve was like, you just, you guys are almost there. You're almost there, and then it was the best thing ever. - Yeah, we were almost there, and you got there. - We were almost there. - It's true. What have the two of you learned from working together? This is not a "Gag" or "Drag". This is a, to summarize. - "Drag" or "Drag". - Exactly, exactly. - Exactly. (all laughing) - Madness. - What? - Have you learned from each other that has nothing to do with music? - Ooh. - Morgan doesn't fuck around. We ask real questions on this podcast. - Wow. - I can go first. - Yeah, go first. - I mean, you lost your grandma in under like, less than a year later, I lost my mom. - Yeah. - And talking to you about grief, like helping you through your grief when I had not yet experienced it was, obviously it was like, felt meaningful and talking to somebody about that even when you're not also suffering can be, can feel good or feel cathartic or whatever the thing is, but after my mom passed and we spoke, I was like, dude, and then you were like, okay, this is gonna happen, that's gonna happen, and so it was just, I don't know, pretty wild that in our first year of working together, we both experienced that. And I think that you really taught me a lot, you know, figuratively and kind of literally as far as like, practice and techniques and things for dealing with grief that I really appreciate. - Oh. - Wow, I think it's hard to understand grief if you haven't gone through it. I think it's like, yeah, especially someone as close as your mother. I mean, that is, yeah, yeah. I think this is something I've learned, I think recently I've been working with, you know, people I've like always looked up to, including both of you. And I feel like the more successful the people I've been working with have been, the more I'm like, y'all are just good people who are grounded and don't have like ridiculous egos and you go into the room and you just treat people like people. And that is why you're successful. And I think that that has been like, I don't know, I think that's huge. And I don't think people know that like out there. - Well, thank you. - You know, and it really makes a huge difference. Like I even think about, I mean, every session I have with you for sure. It's like, I feel so listen to, I feel like we're, you know, just collaborating. truly and then even the session with you for what's the point it was very much like it was so easy to talk to you guys about like What was going on in my life and I think that like well your stories were so juicy. I was I was I was I was popcorn I was like let's go Tell me about the next tragedy to have and I was like oh, thank God. I'm not in my 20s anymore It's true. It's true now. Yeah, I think I think that there's I think that that Mean people can have a run of hits. Yeah to last a decade plus It's your you have to be obsessed with the craft Yeah, and you I think if you're obsessed with the craft there's a kindness because you're there for a greater good You're there to just keep doing great things because the thing point of like proving yourself because that was huge for me I needed to prove that I could write music that the whole world liked it was in me since I was young I had to do it now that I've proven it. It's just like well. I'm still here because I think it's really awesome It's awesome songs are magic. Yeah, I'm so awesome And you guys have made a fucking beautiful body of work that just came out. What do you hope people? If you could hope one thing that people take away from listening to the whole project, what is it? This writing this project helped me through the worst year of my life like hands down So I'm hoping that I can help somebody else do their life as well. That's it. Love it. That's it. I couldn't say I couldn't put any better Yeah, that's great love it Everybody Ricky read an Emma Thank you for having us. Thank you for coming. It's so fun. Let's go Hello, hello, everyone's favorite part of every podcast where we say please follow and subscribe to this podcast Wherever you listen so you don't miss future conversations and also pretty please take a cute little second to rate the show It's one of the biggest ways you can support us. See you next Wednesday Imagine setting your makeup then forgetting it's even theirs meet new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York Gel to mist technology locks in your look for up to 24 hours with flexible all-day comfy grip No tightness no stickiness no residue just plum do we hydrated skin that still feels like your skin Try new grippy setting mist from Mavily New York.