Elle Duncan on the messiest WNBA All-Star yet, Dijonai Carrington accusing her ex NaLyssa Smith of cheating on her, the Caitlin Clark and Sophie Cunningham discourse, and much more!

Testing testing testing check check check. Wow. Wow on the test. Let's go I went I realized I went a little you guys both said test and I said check check check I'm sorry. It's the hip-hop in me. No, I like me. One mic sounds nice check one That's what we need. We're the we're the two widest people who ever existed come on Thank you. We'll take that as a compliment. Okay. Let's see if that sounds it Hi, Charlotte. Hello, Madeline. We're back with another episode of the sports gossip show presented by eBay Live I did prop. Okay, for those of you on the audio only end of this matter I just held up a pair of another pair of glasses even though she's wearing a pair of glasses and it looked like the glasses were singing a song. They were I thought it would be nice to have a prop. Yeah, anyway, it's good stuff. Oh, I'm good. I'm hot Yeah, too. Oh my god. The AC in my apartment is broken. Same. Well Everything's gone or not in a good way. Yeah, I would say everything is going our way Yeah, you know, but but other than that, I'm great. How are you? I'm doing great outside of the I have like one AC unit in the bedroom. That's like blowing you know this, but it's like blowing into the living room It's a whole thing Yeah, so AC if you're listening Big AC big HVAC Big HV I you know, I need to look up how air conditioners work there. I don't really want to know to be honest. What's yeah, that's a good point I'm like had the cold the coolant or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, something. No, you're right. Maybe you don't want to know Never mind. Um Well, you have a great episode Very, very, very excited about this. El Duncan Is just the best she's the the main sports host on Netflix first ever. You'll hear our whole intro for her We talked to her all about the W about the messiness of all star weekend about the the Caitlin Clark conversations of it all about who she's excited about and Madeline, I think maybe we should just go right into it. Yeah, I hope everyone enjoys this Convertention so really I just love hearing Everything El always says and to have her for an hour was amazing Yes, so I hope everyone enjoys hearing her thoughts because I could listen them forever. So Everyone enjoys without further ado enjoy Okay, folks. This is a special one. We are so thrilled to have El Duncan our dear friend back on the show with us She is netflix's first live host for sports the lead host for wmba coverage on us a network and one of times 100 most influential people in sports. El welcome to the show. Let's go. Hi, ladies Hi, we're so excited to have you back I'm so glad to be back. I'm really glad that you guys got the mandate too that you have to refer to me as time 100s most influential Well, look here she that should come with an honorific. It should be like, you know how they have like HR reading than it should be like Yeah, T100 and then just the rest of your life Yeah, until next day, and then I'm off it. So yeah, well Is it funny though if you think about a list of 100 influential people and it's like you're on it one year And then if you're not it's like, oh my god, she Things went south real fun. So it's no longer influential Yeah, I feel like there's a few names that will be like repeats, right? Like LeBron is probably going to be on that list again Ornaja Wilson or Caitlin Clarke, but like those of us that to be honest if it was ranked probably would have come in at 99 or 100 anyway We know one time thing and that's for like that's fine. I'll take that one time of all of all like of all people in in broadcasting though I would put you on there again 100% I love you sharp. I would also you know what else we have to say this And I want everybody listening to know this when we were doing this show ourselves We were not with the athletic we were You know just Well, well two person situation you invited us to ESPN's W summit yeah, and you put us on a stage with you and a few other amazing people and you said you guys belong to be here And then and said told everyone in the audience who was like a lot of talk about influence You know people brands with money and you said you should pay attention to these two and I just want everybody to know That is what it looks like people talk about like women supporting women But what it what it really is is if you have any power and you Invite other people up there with you who may not have as much like that's the real deal So shout out to L forever. Thank you. Well, I mean listen the truth of the matter is is that yes You want to be a great ally, but ultimately I don't do any of that if not for the fact that y'all are both widely talented Like it's not you know this is not it was not a charity organization It's true. I like still business and you know and and if I'm gonna say something I need to mean it and I have mean it and then I think you guys are amazing You're so talented in your respective fields But then to come up with this really cool idea like sports gossip I just I was such a fan and it's one of those ideas where like you know when someone like invent something and then you're like Why didn't I see just that it just seems so it seems like a layup but no one's thought of it and sports gossip It was like duh this is so great like this is so fantastic And so it was my pleasure and honor To be able to to have you guys up there and you killed it You know and you were great and charming and witty and all the things that you are and so just to see the success of the show has been So wonderful. I'm just so proud of both of you especially because I know it's it's you know It's an act of protest for two women to step on on their own build something from scratch um and uh and you've done it So uh super special to be held So nice to see you little love fest. Let's get to the team Yeah, I was gonna sell Venmo you are agreed upon fee uh right after So no thank you so much that means the world we are here however to talk about the wmba we you know with everything from the next world cup Showed twice a week and yet there is still never enough to cover everything and finally we are getting to a dedicated W episode especially after I don't know would you say that this was one of them the messier All-star weekends and I say that As a positive Yeah, sure like super petty and messy I think last year was all about like um, you know the studs but stud buds like I said it at the time I thought was the greatest marketing campaign their live stream for w and b all star And I think last year was all about the love obviously there was you know the protest and with the cba and the demonstration that the ladies had So there was some serious factors to it But I think it was just so much about introducing you know the world at large the mainstream media and whatnot to like the rapport and camaraderie that these women have How much fun they have how much personality they have that was last year. This year was all about spilling tea It was so messy. It was messy No, it really was one of the first things we got to talk about is um deejanae carrington's thread heard around the world Um because I feel like you often don't see people spilling tea who are public figures and our athletes accusing ex-girlfriends or boyfriends of Maybe cheating perhaps on a public platform um, I don't it by name it wasn't even Like not even innuendo like just straight up by name no just straight up by name I guess what were your thoughts on that from one PR perspective, but also just from a drama standpoint because I just feel like I haven't seen something like that from a professional athlete in quite some time And real quick I just want to read for those who might not have heard it deejanae carrington who used to date and elissa Smith um and they were teammates at one point They no longer are she post on thread since mf's want to be funny today. I'm a be hilarious. Yes No, listen cheated on me with deejanae and alia and i plus plus plus many more So okay, so I was I was privy to some of this behind the scenes that there was some drama um because I just inquired a while ago, you know, with some friends like whatever What happened with like with de and the listen and was told that some things may or may not have transpired and whatnot But again, that's all speculative and whatnot. I am surprised a that that she did it so publicly, but that it took this long because like this has been something that people like in the circle of sort of known has been brewing for a long time um and uh I was a little bit forward just because like I would to be honest y'all I was mostly forward that it's taking this long Because this is a porously a space where like, you know, there's some crossover There's yes, you know, some women are dating other women or teammates or whatnot or former engagements and now they don't and now they play against it So I'm a little bit surprised that it's taken the song to get this level of um of tea and petty, but I was like wow to Call them out by name, right to not just say like Melissa did this to me allegedly And whatever but to say and it's with these two to particular people was so wild to me and probably tells you that Dijonet's still feeling some amount of hurt from it, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. But I think too that like the stud buds revealed what everyone had been assuming for a while anyway, which is that Dijonet's dating Jackie Young. Like there's been a lot of that going on, that chatter as well. We saw some glimpses of them on the stud buds. But like maybe I don't know you guys, so you get in a new relationship, you're feeling good, you're feeling spicy and you wanna talk down on your ex. If I'm your current, I don't know that I love that. I don't know that I love that you're like doing that. It's like, are you still hung up on it? Like why do you still care? - No, I think that's a good point. - It definitely felt, I mean on some level, it's such a strange thing because I think there's a part of me that is like, we are getting more transparency than ever when it comes to sports gossip. And at the same time, people are also able to manage their images so carefully. And I think there is an element of this, where in some ways it's refreshing rather than get like the vague notes ap apology that someone is saying, oh, sorry, do you wanna know exactly what happened? And then on the, just from sort of like a PR perspective, but on the human side of things, it's also like, I mean, I guess I believe sort like if you are in a relationship and you cheat on someone, that is not a good thing to do. If you're the person that is involved in that, whoever, like if you're not in a relationship, like you don't owe that person anything. So it felt like Deja Kellyanne Lee and I caught a couple of streets here, whether it was true or not, but is there any element of this that can be like gamemanship? I mean, these people are all still playing together. Like is this meant to rock any boats in terms of the actual sports of it all? - Oh, man, well, I'm circling September 19th. I think that's when the sky faced the dream, which is the dream that a Lee and I plays on Deja Kellyanne Lee, former UNC player, and then went up to Oregon. But she, I don't know. I honestly believe that this was just one of those cases. I feel like we've all had a situation where we feel mischaracterized, we feel misjudged, or we see rumors or discourse that we just know, are categorically false. And a lot of times we can compartmentalize and go, it doesn't matter, I'll let the story speak for itself. The people that know, no, if you know, you know, whatever. And it just feels like in this situation, she was emotional. I don't know what, I'm still trying to get to the bottom of what triggered the, since y'all my (beep) laugh. On my way, happened to trigger that. - Right. - It's what you had to the bottom of that. But it feels like, I don't know Deja Kellyanne at all. I love her. I think she's stunning. I think she is such an amazing player. And she has always been so sweet every time I see her. I don't know her well enough to know if she regretted it immediately after. But I do know that I think we all get to a point where we wanna say something. We wanna defend ourselves. We wanna defend our position. We wanna, you know, I've got T on all kinds of people. And there's times where, you know, I'm like, "Gah, I just wanna reveal who you really are to people." But like, the other part of my brain clicks in and it's like, it's just, it's destructive. It doesn't mean anything. It's not gonna help the situation. So like, just don't do it. And maybe she just got caught up in an emotional moment and wanted to tweet about it. - Yeah. - But I'm with you to Charlotte and that like, I'm torn and that like, there's the side of you that's like, "Ah, that's a little cringy." And maybe a little TMI. But then there's the other side of you that's like, "We're so tired of these manufactured, PR perfect, speaking and sound bites." Like, we just want real. And we implore athletes to be real. To be raw, to be themselves, to be vulnerable. Like all those things, to be transparent. And then when they're like, really transparent, we go, "Ooh, too much." So I'm torn. But, you know, I just, in general, like, I hate the situation. I like all the women involved. It's one of my freaking business. But you made it our business. And so now it's just gonna invite more. And, you know, my thing for Dijene would be that like, you have invited people in now. So when this becomes a storyline that you're ready to wrap up, but nobody else is, you do have to understand, you sort of facilitated that a little bit by letting people in. - Yeah, you do have to be prepared when you post that on your public thread's account that people may have questions down the line. Whether you like that. - Oh, that's 100% gonna come up in the scrum before they play. - 100%. - Yeah, land a dream, like it's gonna happen. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Unless Petty and just, there were two that things that happened at all, so that felt wholesome to us. When Obama had the W players at the basketball court of the new presidential library compound extravaganza, which looks incredible. And it was a cool moment of, you know, here's this guy who everybody knows has talked about. He meant basketball forever saying, like, oh, no, no, no, this is as much of a thing that I care about. It was just really fun. It's really fun to see that sort of less of a question and more of like, well, that was cool. - I loved watching all of them like fan girl. You know, like when you're these big athletes and these big celebrities and people tend to be you're the person that's getting fan girled over. And so to see all these like big stars, the C-page beckers, like, and like, you know, Angel Reese taking a picture of him talking with the butt. Like it was so, it was so cute, so sweet. I know for a fact that President Obama watches women's basketball because he reached out to the president of ESPN when I was still there and, you know, shared his love for me and Cheney Andre and how he loved watching us on the desk. So I know he watches, I know he watches. We appreciate you, President Obama. But it is, I feel like it's, it's a Ken, like, President Obama coming to something is a Ken to what I believe it would be to be like knighted. - Yes, once he comes and like gives you his, you know, confirmation, it's like, everything becomes bigger and better and more meaningful and more impactful. So it was really cool that he took the time to do that and show love to the W. It was amazing. - Yeah, it really was so great. Another amazing thing that happened at All Star was AZFUD became the first rookie in W&B history to win the three-point contest, which I love. Did you have any predictions going into the three-point contest? Do you feel like AZFUD was the favorite or do you feel like she was the underdog going in? - Yeah, I think she was definitely the underdog going in just because A, Rookie's never won it. And she was up against some really competent three-point shooters and you always wonder with the rookies and what the nerves get to them. What will, can we call Sonya Citron last year and they did really amazing the rookies that participated last year, but she was amazing. And I will say this, for all the people, when Paige made that prediction on stud Buds that AZ was going to absolutely kill him at the three-point contest and everyone's like, "Oh, you're supposed to do that." You all thought that she was, you know, that she was being biased in that opinion and then she came out and absolutely smoked him. But it's not shocking for anyone that watched AZFUD or watched her in college as well. When that girl got going from three, it was good luck. And we used to always say I would watch her games. And as soon as, if she hit a couple of threes in their first quarter, we were like, "Good night and good luck." Because once we hit going, it's a wrap. And that's, you know, he's not streaky in any way. But in particular, we're threes like, once she sees a couple go in, it's bad luck for the other team. So I love that for her. AZ is amazing. And I just love so much. A rookie season that started out with people going, "Oh my God, they're not using her right. What is happening? This is a disaster. What's the problem? Holy crap. Like, we're already doing load management. That's a concern. To see what it's turned into has just been super special. And I think a reminder for us all to let things breathe. Yes. Let things breathe. Let people settle in, let things breathe. Let's figure out lineups, let's fairy out rotations. They've done that. And wings are thriving. And now AZ is making history. I love it. Yeah. There was some stat that obviously now I can't remember because that would be, that would make too much sense. But with Yukon about one AZ hit a certain amount of threes, it was just like they were going to win. Like statistically, there was no coming back. And so yeah, that was, that was such a lovely moment for her after, as you said, all the chatter. Also, Paige was just living her best life at all start. And Paige on these stud buds live stream, which I loved it. So the stud buds live stream, obviously, as you said last year, it was Courtney Williams and Tisha Heidman started this 72 hour live stream, was totally organic. This year was sponsored by AT&T. So good for them. They monetize that. Get them back. Get them back. Something that is, I'd love to know your take on sort of what has become because it became required viewing in a way, but there is an element of it where it takes, and part of what's so amazing about it, as we said, it's raw and unfiltered and you are going places that we usually can't go. There's a moment where John Col Jones, who's a star of the Liberty one, I think almost every award you could win in the league, was saying that she thought that the Connecticut Sun deserved to win the 2019 finals, sort of more than the mystic, sort of like the links deserved to win more than the Liberty. Obviously, she's on the Liberty issues finals MVP in 2024. And it seems like something that you say when it's, you know, also the links were playing a lot better than the Liberty for a lot of that series. And it felt like a little bit of a, you know, you can say this in a private moment and recognize the greatness of another team without necessarily diminishing your own. And then she was asked about it at press conference and she started to cry. Yeah. That felt like a very complicated moment because of how cool the live stream is, but also of how it can take away a level of privacy or comfort that I think players have felt in the past at all star. Well, that, yes, I mean, everything is out there. But I also think that knowing that like last year, there was some, you know, surprising things that sort of happened because people didn't really fully realize what the studs buzz live stream actually was. This year, you went in knowing and understanding that like, you could be on that stream at any moment. And so I think that it's just a moment of sort of like, I know what I mean, but how could this be perceived? And you know, we are talking heads for a living. So every time we do interviews, we conduct interviews. We are the subjects of interviews. And so we, I think, have a better understanding of like, how can I be authentic, transparent and real, but also understand how things can be perceived. And I think like to me, it's a total and complete non-issue. I don't understand why everyone's so upset with John cool. Like here's my thing. It sounds like sour f*** grapes, if you say that every team that you played on should have won and didn't, didn't, right? That sounds like Rod Brindemore, who has redeemed himself by winning the Stanley Cup. But a few years ago, for those that don't know, he's a hockey coach for the Panthers. And his team had just got swept. And he said at the press conference, we didn't get swept. We didn't lose four games. That's what it will say. That's what it will show, but that's not what happened. And I'm like, no, that's exactly what f***ing happened. And you sound like sour grapes, right? And John Quill, if she would have said that every team she was on should have won the finals, to me, that sounds like sour grapes. You can't just, she acknowledged, she felt like the sun should have won over the mystics. And then she said, the team that she was on, that she won finals MVP on, probably shouldn't have won that, that finals. And I can tell you that someone that covered that finals, that was there, someone that listened to Cheryl Reeve on the pulpit afterwards, say that they were, this series was stolen from them. But they absolutely, for the most part got outplayed, ultimately, it didn't matter in the, in the end. And no one, and it doesn't matter. And they got their, their clutch shots and whatnot. But yes, I would say that the links were in firm command of that series for most of it. And for her to say, because of team chemistry and how they played and how well they had played all year long, they should have been the one to win it. But instead it was us. I don't, I just don't take issue with it. And I felt so much worse that she's crying and then she's obviously, she's filling the brunt of fan, liberty fans who feel like she's somehow minimizing or deducing their championship in any kind of way. And I don't think that's what she was doing. I think she speaks to what we all talk about as analysts all the time of those asterisk teams. And I certainly wouldn't call the liberty in 2024 an asterisk team period, okay? But I'm saying in that we love to do this where we battle about like who actually should of one or if this series of things happens and this team wins instead, and she just did that. And so I just, I think the whole thing is being completely blown out of proportion. But she is learning the hard way that sometimes being transparent, like the cross that you bear is that people don't like what you have to say and it's unfortunate in that way. But I think moving forward with stud buds, like you know, it exists. You know, you could be caught on camera at a party in a whole way. You know, Asian Bam getting caught was so cute and they're walking to the pool. Like you know that it's a reality and it could happen. And so you just need to do a little bit more planning ahead of time of like how you'll approach it. And I know that it feels like it takes all the fun and rawness out of it. But ultimately it's how you avoid situations like this. But I do think that this thing's being blown out of proportion. And I'm not a liberty fan, but I take no issue with John Colgis being like, I gave you two examples of where a team did not win. And I thought that they should have. I was on one of those teams a loss. And I was on one of those teams that won. And I feel like that means that she could probably speak to it better than anyone. Yeah. No, I agree. I think something to just talking about the live element Charlotte and I've talked about this before was a Jalen, yeah, Jalen Brown's live, someone else, O.J. and I know we accidentally going live during the finals. We talk about these athletes. It's like, if you're going live, just be prepared because what you say is live. So just I feel like for these players with this live stream, it's like a new medium of communicating with fans that you just have to be prepared that you may be caught on a hot mic in the background of this live. And this is now part of all star weekend. It's a real, you know, yeah, don't change the thing because it's so great. Oh, I know. I know it's so fun. What I hope is that what I hope is that the players don't sort of voiding the live stream concerns that, you know, the backlash is not the juice won't be worth the squeeze because I do think it's like such a unique thing that the stud buds do that women in particular do so well connecting with their, you know, social media followers and brands and what not. And I really do think it's still such a great marketing tool. I mean, we're still, you know, most of the stories unpacking WNB All Star involved some facet of the stud buds. And I love that. So I hope that they don't change and corporatize it so much that no one wants to say anything and people avoid the cameras, but just, you know, you just got to know, like you said, it lives out there forever and you just have to start with it. Yeah. I don't think it will in terms of, I think that one of the most fun things, the something that we loved, there was a fan edit of, it was just 13 minutes of only the party scenes from this stud with the live stream. And when you watch that, people are having so much fun. It reminded me a little bit of being in college when Facebook was new. Yes. We're like, you wanted to put, like you uploaded all of those Nikon cool picks, 160 photo albums because you were like, we're having so much fun. And this was so messy. And yes, I'm sitting in a pizza box with like beer cans on my head, but isn't that fun? Yes. And it felt like that element of social media, of the internet being fun again. And like seeing Nefisa like dancing in a hotel room after coming back from this awful injury, you're just like, she wants to be there. She's there. So I'm hopeful that people will keep wanting to be there the way we kept wanting to upload those photo albums because there is something fun to about being like, I'm sorry, we look really cool. When we're partying. I don't know what to tell you. You look so cool. I didn't have, I was a college rob out. So I was not eligible for a Facebook until they opened it up to everyone. No. But I did do that on my space. I was in my space, girly. Yeah. A lot of my space. With some playlist. With my space out. Oh, yeah. And like, you know, then you could like, they would keep doing the effects. And then like, you would go on my page and like sparkles would come down. It's incredible. Things these kids will never know. No, they won't. But before we move on to some other WSF, was there anything from All Star that we didn't touch on that you thought was particularly juicy or funny or great? No. I mean, I think you hit it all. Those were the biggest talking points where President Obama teagate with the who cheated on who. I got to know. Yeah. Teagate. I mean, yes. So petty. I love it. But no, I mean, it was, I think in general, it was a, you know, really good All Star. I think mostly you're facing an existential crisis when it comes to their All Star because they still make it about the play. And I think the WNBA have figured out that like all of the ancillary stuff, the stud buds being one of those things that draws people into the culture and the atmosphere is really, really special that other teams should be looking into or other leagues should be looking into because they're all really, really struggling right to get people to give a damn about an exhibition game. And I think the WNBA stands among them as like, yeah, like maybe you watch the game. But like to be honest, when we're unpacking everything that happened, no one's really talking about the game either. It's everything that happened around it. So they have done a great job cornering that market. Well done. And like other leagues take notice. You need to get somebody else upon a Twitch stream or something just to like really to revive what is his, has been sort of a lost thing, which is, which is All Star games. No one cares anymore. You know, NHL solved it by pitting countries against each other because, you know, patriotism. And I think the WNBA is going strong because of all of the, you know, everything that happens off the court. Yeah. Totally. Totally. All right. Well, here's a, there's some less fun things in the W. One of them is Sophie Cunningham, who has recently talked about, there's an ESPN article where she said she wanted to protect women's sports. She said, I got a lot of negative feedback about me hating trans, which is an interesting way of putting that in the first place. She said, and unlike I never once said that, I think I am here to extend love, but I also think that love is truth being honest that I want to protect young girls in a locker room or young girls in sport who shouldn't have to go against biological men. She then doubled down on that in an interview and posted an Instagram of her walking into a game in, you know, an outfit and said, I said, what I said, this is, you know, trans people in sports has become such a bullsh*t talking point to the right wing people use and ends up just putting more hate and scrutiny on trans people who are the most vulnerable people in our society. This is not an issue. It's almost hard to have anything interesting to say about this because it's just so gross in some ways. Do you know what I mean? So it feels like it's hard to know. It's like, don't do that, Sophie. That feels like that's what it comes down to. Yeah, I mean, okay, so I'm going to give you full disclosure here. I have a, and I have my entire career. I have a very, very strict policy, personal policy, of never talking publicly about colleagues. And Sophie is a contributor at U.S. Sports. Okay. Okay. going to take issue specifically with Sophie. I'm not here to police her thoughts. She is allowed to believe whatever she wants and express it on any platform that she wants. I would say though, in general, when it comes to this discussion, it is maddening for all of the reasons that you just said Charlotte. And this is, you know, this is not just Sophie. This is in general. I think that my perspective on this entire thing is that this issue receives such an outsized amount of attention compared to how often it actually arises. This idea of protecting girls, protecting women, protecting girls. I'm like, some of these same people who have used this as part of their pulpit. They never mention anything about Title IX. They never mention anything about the thousands of lawsuits across the country that are happening because girls in sports are not being protected and are being targeted. And in many cases, being abused or not getting the same resources or funds, some of these places are actually breaking the law. And I never seem to hear anything about that. Those cases of which are on the thousands when you compare it to cases of transgender athletes, which are on the tens and 20s. I mean, this is not a situation that arises. The issue is every time it does arise, it lands on Yahoo or Google or CNN or wherever, and it becomes this overinflated. It's a dog whistle. It is at this point. And I think that, you know, my approach has always been with anything in life. I try to approach everything, even things that I do not understand, right? Like I can hold two truths at the same time. The truth is we can acknowledge that the governing bodies of sports do have some difficult questions around eligibility and all of those things that they need to answer. I do not have the answers to that. We can also acknowledge that the public conversation is ridiculous and it's disproportionate. And I, when I don't know, when I don't have solutions to a problem, I always tend to lend to lean on the side of empathy and kindness and understanding. And when you talk about the transgender community, which, as you just said, Charlotte, is amongst the most marginalized groups. It just feels like kicking someone when they're down and it just feels gross and unfair and it feels like bullying. And I'm tired of it, you know, because it's just, it's become another lightning rod. It's like, there's these two things in sports right now that are total lightning rod issues. It's transgender athletes and then it's, you know, the women of the WNBA hate Caitlin Clark and they're beating her up. And it's just like, and we just keep going back to the same well over and over and over and over again. I'm all about protecting women as well. I just feel like let's allocate our resources and attention to the thousands of cases of women and girls who are being discriminated against, who are being prevented from, you know, playing sports that they love. Like there is a real crisis of young women dropping out of sports and I can tell you based on all of the research on the studies of which I am a part of a few collectives that it is not because of transgender athletes. They are dropping out because they don't have female representation as coaches because they do not feel like their sports matter as much as boys sports because they don't see the same, you know, visibility and representation. There's a bevy of reasons that young girls are dropping out of sports or not joining sports at all. But to say that the biggest existential crisis is something where we see a handful of cases every few years, I just think is ridiculous. And it's a flash point. Many other things in our culture and it just makes me sad to see people being used in that way. And I'm not saying that Sophie was being used or whatnot, but it makes me sad for to see people take that bait because there's no winning that debate and there's also no compassion in that debate as well. It's this other ring, it's this victimizing and it makes me really, really sad, truly. Yeah. Yeah. It feels like in some ways I think the issue feels that these public figures and these athletes talk about it as a PR play in a lot of ways, your point because it's going to bring headlines to your point. Like it's like a buzzing, hot topic issue, even though it of course impacts such a small subset of the population that is so marginalized, but it does feel like it's like the minute you use those buzzwords, it's going to be the top story, whether it needs to be or not. Like it and that, I don't really have a question. It's more just an unfortunate use of PR. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Why can't we use these situations? There is no nuance. Right. Yeah. More than general is is gone. I wish that there was some more nuance rather than it just being described as the defining issue in women's sports because it's not right. It's not defining issue in women's sports. It's not an existential crisis. It's not the biggest threat to women's sports. It isn't. It is none of those things. And so it's it's frustrating when we cannot just say like let's look at these things specifically. And to be honest, there are some situations where we can't really look at nuance because there's there's just so much that it's kind of like you do have to generalize. This is one of those topics where you can because there are so few cases. You can actually look at it in a case by case basis. And the idea that these same governing bodies will say, well, the solution isn't just to create a translate because there aren't enough trans athletes. How can you say that on one hand? There's not even enough trans athletes to create a leak for them. And then on the other hand, say, but it's the biggest crisis facing women's sports. Totally. Those things cannot be true. Right. No. And also sports are, you know, four, four trans women sports can be such an amazing way, you know, to be a part of a community to do what you love while still being who you are. And it affects people this debate over, quote, fairness, which people target at the NCAA level or the pro level of which they're, you know, there's just so few cases. But it trickles down to be like this trans woman can't play on her high school, whatever team with no intention of going pro. Or, you know, it's like that these trickle down effects are so detrimental to the individual. And it's, it's just a shame. I also think, you know, the, the Caitlin Clark of it all, L, it's got, it's, you mentioned, is that being the other sort of lightning rod in, in women's basketball? At this point, I don't know. I'm, I'm a little, I'm like, this also feels like a, I, I, this is how I feel about it right now, just like, but okay, what are we, what are we doing at this point? It feels like we've, that the conversation in, in many ways, has, has jumped the shark. Oh, we've been circling this drain for a while, girl. I'm glad we think it just jumped the shark. This is a jump jump jump. It's been jumped. It's been jumped. Yeah. Again, it's just, I, I have expressed this for the last couple of years, like when, when Caitlin first came to the league, and there was a lot of this, at the time, it was all about her being left off the Olympic roster. That's what started it. And I kept saying to myself and my co-workers, like, okay, once she starts playing, and people get to see her actually play, we'll get to move on from this. We'll get to move on from all of this, like ancillary, you know, crap, because they don't have anything to watch. Once they have something to watch, we can get back to the basketball of it all. No. And then it turned into, she gets fouled too hard, and then it turned into, they all hate her, and they're all petty. And they, and it was last year, I think, where I came to the realization, like, we, this is not going anywhere. I truly believe that at some point, this would just die out. The people are appreciating the idea that, you know, a rising tide lifts all boats and that, like, the more viewership and whatnot, there would be a bigger and deeper appreciation for all of these players and how they play. There'd be better understanding that, you know, if you're just watching women's basketball for the first time, they're very physical. This is always marked women's basketball, they're quite physical. Like, I thought that there would just, with more understanding, with more experience watching women's basketball, that there would just sort of be this, like, uh-huh, like, okay. So maybe my snap judgment was wrong. And like, there would be this catharsis. There would be a realization. There would be, it's like, nope, nope, it's like getting worse. It's getting worse. It's getting worse where we've got congressional hearings. And it's like, it's just, it's so absurd on so many levels. And I have taken so much issue with, like, I am not discounting because I listen to the people who are OGs. I'm lucky enough to know a lot of the, you know, 10 pull players in the league, current ones as well, and ones that used to play. And they all will agree with you that officiating is a problem. And it's been a problem for a long time. And some of that is because, you know, like, if you were a really good ref, then you were probably going to go to the NBA or you're going to go to a minth college basketball or whatever it is. Um, and that, you know, like, addressing the issue with officiating and that they let too much go by, they let these women beat themselves up. I am with you on that where I have an issue. And what I'm finding to be so frustrating this year, in particular, is watching people say things like, well, Caitlin Clark is a superstar. And so they need to do a better job of protecting her. And I'm like, I don't give a damn, this is coming from coaches. And I'm like, I don't give a damn if you're 10th off the bench. Right. You are deserving of being protected. Yeah. will be protected. You should change officiating and have more consistency because it benefits the game and it benefits all of its players. We're, I'm not dumb or naive. I understand that superstar athletes get certain calls. They get a little more attention or a little less attention when they're doing bad things. Like I understand that. But to watch people continuously say, you need to make these existential changes to protect one player is absurd because none of these things make headlines when someone else is getting their ass beat or drag down or hit or whatever. Like no attention has made it all. And yeah, it's just again become this sort of like, I don't, I was listening to my local radio station the other day. Turned on the radio for the first time, right? It's like Hartford **** Connecticut will pop radio. And I'm hearing these two Gibronis and one of them's like, yeah, man, you know, just this cat in Clark situation man. She's like so crazy. It's just like nobody else gets nobody else gets treated like her in the league. Nobody else gets, you know, attacked like she does nobody. And one of the other guys like, yeah, man, you never see it anywhere in the W. And I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm going to judge you really quickly. You want me to believe that you two Gibronis watch enough WNBA basketball that you know how other people are being treated. That's the frustrating part. These is like the same person out of their mouth will say, I only watch Caitlin Clark because she is a star. And I love her. And she's the only reason I watch WNBA. And then on the other side of their mouth will go, nobody gets treated like. I'm like, how do you know if you only watch her watch Caitlin? How do you know how these players are being treated or how they're being rift or how they are being treated amongst each other? It's bullshit. We're talking on both sides of their mouth. Yeah. And it's on the most frustrating subject in all of sports. It has made the WNBA not particularly fun to cover because it always comes back to that. And it's not fun. I am not blaming. This is going to turn into, and it's the understanding that the idea we're even broaching this subject means that there will be some article written today about me calling you lib tards, snow, play, racing, pro black women, hate white women. It's like just all of the bulls comes along with it. So what you're doing is you're paralyzing people. They either just don't want to, they want to avoid it to get all together. Or they want to sort of play both sides and go, then I don't know because they're just afraid of the backlash that they're going to get. And I got to tell you, I don't give a ****. I have been very clear about the fact that I do not think it's on Caitlin that these bad faith characters have used her and used her name, image and likeness to, to be misogynistic or racist or any of the, or, you know, a big it, any of those things. But I will say this, we are now reaching a point where if I'm Caitlin's team, because I know that she has really tried to cocoon herself from a lot of this. Yeah, especially early on. I was like, can the girl just come in and learn how to be a professional and learn? Like it's not fair that we are also putting this on her. All of the history of the W and everything that comes with it, it's not fair that she also has to have them on her shoulders. But because this is not going away, and it's only getting worse, if I'm her people, I'm looking her and going, we have got to figure out a way that feels genuine to you. Nobody wants you to do some performative PR statement bullshit, but a way that feels organic to you. We have got to not just say what she has been saying because she has been speaking out and saying no, but it's not working. So the definition of identity is to just keep doing the same thing. I would love for someone on her team to look at her and go, you need to be calling these people out by name. You need to be saying, stay out of this Congress. With all due respect, I do not need you sticking up for me. I do not need you infantilizing me. I do not need any of those things. I want you to stop using my name. I do not believe any of those things. I have nothing but respect for these people. Stop it. I would love for it to be very clear to the people who think they are her fans, but are using her. If she would say stop that. I don't want it. I'm tired of it. As opposed to what we've seen, which is the media makes up these narratives. The media makes up this discourse. That's not true. The media highlights the stories and they show it. But at the same time, like the media did not make up that members of Congress are trying to get literal government intervention into whether you get fouled too hard. Yeah. It's not going anywhere. Unfortunately, we're now trying to put the toothpaste back in the tube. I don't think there's an easy solution to it. I really don't. I don't have all the answers. I certainly don't. I just know that whatever's happening right now is not working. I would love for Caitlin's team to go back to the drawing board and say, again, as much as we would love to live in a world where you get to just play basketball and be a great person and a great leader. And she's all of those things as much as we would love for you to be able to just focus on that. Just like the players against her would love to be able to not wonder if they hard foul her, whether they're going to be called names or have death threats against them. We would love that to be your reality. It's unfortunately not your reality right now. So let's try to figure out how we can get you to that reality where you get to just focus on this. How do we put this to bet? Yeah. That I think is the solution that everyone can live with. How do we get together and put this to bed so that you can focus on the fact that the fever or surging right now can't run at a 45 point game that like despite her load management, she's playing so well. Like how do we get back to Alia Boston? She was three is all of a sudden. How do we get back to that? And the best way to get back to that, which is what we all want is to really put it into this. Yeah. And I don't know how that happens, but it needs to. I just went on a total soap box rant. I'm sorry. No, I agree. It's like the issue is so complicated and none of us on this podcast are going to solve the problem. But I agree. It's like the toothpaste cannot be shoved back into a tiny little tube anymore. And it's probably unfortunately only going to get worse, whether and we like it or not. Yeah. And I think this is why we have you on because you are able to talk about these things with nuance, but also clarity. I feel like a lot of times when people try to talk about these issues facing the W, it gets muddy very quickly. And I think that this is why we talk so much on our show about PR because gossip to us, you know, it has it. It can have a negative connotation. But to us, it is a sort of simmering public narrative, right? Where no matter what you do, if you are a public person, it becomes a part of your job to understand that when you do certain things or don't do certain things, those are going to affect you. And there are strategies to, as you said, get people to a place where you, if you say something forcefully and true, you can quiet some of these things. And I think what we've, we've seen with Caitlin is not the, you know, regardless of what you think is quote, the right thing to do. We have not seen an effective strategy for quieting this noise and, and unfortunately for her, it, it is now at that point. And I think it's also, you know, when we talk about all of these, these other players in the W who you see their, their public moments becoming bigger and bigger and the way they can capitalize on these moments as, as PR strategies to get them to a level in good faith, you know, not saying something that's a, that's a lightning rod. But the joy that they play with, I mean, it's been so fun, like watching Sonya Citron and Kiki Iriafit, you know, with, with the mystics like the, those surging moments, it's been so fun to watch the tempo and, and the Valkyries, all of it, it's like, oh my god, okay, well, that's pretty good for an expansion team. Like you see these moments that, it's, it's fun to think about the inverse of the negativity of like, where can we talk about the basketball in ways that is, is just going to highlight what an amazing league this is and how cool these other storylines are. Some of that is responsibility of the viewers and fans too. Like, yes, it is. I stand on this in that like, you guys, none of these decisions are made in a vacuum about the teams that are talked about on sports, you know, daily shows or the stories that get, you know, the front page of Yahoo.com or the top page of CNN, they are looking at the metrics. If you are tired of hearing about the league hating Caitlyn Carker, whatever, and if you think it's disingenuous and none of it's real and it's manufactured, stop clicking on the story. I'm serious, stop clicking on the story, stop watching the video of the person, f***ing on all the women in the league or conversely, f***ing on Caitlyn, stop watching it because these things are not made in a vacuum. If you've worked for an editor or a company or whatever and they know that you, I've experienced this on the L Duncan show when I was at ESPN. If I talked about anything else, I'd have this amount of views. But if I just mentioned Caitlyn Carker enough that they could put Caitlyn Carker in the slug or they could, then I would get hundreds of thousands of views. And I told him at some point, I was like, I get it because your goal is to get as many views as possible. You want me, but I'm not going to say anything on this show. Good about or other about anybody that I don't actually want to say. I'm going to be genuine in that way. If I feel strongly about something, I'm going to say it no matter what, but I'm not going going to just say some stuff because you know it's going to get better viewers. And that's how they're thinking you guys. So if someone says, well, I wrote this article about how interesting the mystics are despite the fact that in the standings, they're not a powerhouse, or I wrote this article about this amazing charity organization that Jackie Young is a part of, but it got 200 reads. But then I wrote this super petty article about all of the women in the league hating Caitlin Clark and it did 100,000 views. What do you think they're going to do? Yeah. Going back and feeding you that rage bait because ultimately that's how their jobs are defined by success as well. How many views did you get? How many people are talking about? How many people clicked on your article? So like you can blame the media as much as you want. And certainly they have some culpability and they should take accountability. But you also are the ones that determine the habits of what they're writing about. And so if you want more feel good stories, if you want it to be more about the basketball, stop clicking on the bull. Start clicking more on the basketball stories. And I promise you those metrics will get to a person who gets to decide those things. And more stories about the basketball will start popping up. You control that guys. Yeah. They think that they can differentiate between a rage click and an agreement click. Like you can't, you can't, there's no color survey on the article. There's no survey that's like, are you here because you agree with this or disagree with this? It's only because of the numbers. And so whether you think it's a true article or not or you disagree or disagree when you click on it, you give them everything that they need. You put more oxygen into it. So like I would say stop sharing those clips, stop sharing those if you really want to make it about the basketball, you the viewer, the fan who's feeling frustrated right now, you do control more of that than you actually think you determine habits because they are watching more habits to see what they put out. Yeah. No, it's true. Well, speaking of storylines, are there any storylines amongst teams or players in the league that you feel like are not getting the spotlight that they deserve? And you would want to use our podcast to shine a light on those storylines. You're your pulpit. Well, I think just to me, the biggest overarching story line is how exciting the W has become in that it's not just like with college, it's not two or three teams every year streaking towards a title run. You know, you mentioned golden state, like, you know, we can kind of combine this with just some of the storylines that I'm most excited for in the second half. And that being the Valkyries, who we knew they were playing with house money. They were ahead of schedule last year as an expansion team, making history as an expansion team across all major sports, by the way, not just in the W. But then to follow it up and like, like if you thought they were just happy to be there last year, like, not the case number one defense, Natalie Nicosse, what a higher, I think in general, the way that golden state is run, one of the most remarkable business stories, sports story. It's truly a wonder, like to see the investment, the personal investment from ownership GM on down, it is, it should go down as a poster child for how you open an expansion team, truly like amongst any league. It's really remarkable. And so I would say, I don't think we pay enough attention to how great the golden state project is, if you will, the belief, the team that they constructed, like, it's, it's, it's amazing. It really is. I got one day we're going to look back on this and be like, and I, you know, I feel for teams like the tempo and all the new teams that are coming in as well, Portland, because that is your, your, your gold standard now. Yeah. And it's really hard to live up to that. What they've done is like truly remarkable. So I would say I think in general, we don't talk enough about golden state, who last I looked, hold on, I wrote this down. They have won 13 of their last 16 games. It's crazy. And they go and get Gabby Williams. And like full disclosure, this is a team last year. I worked the, you know, draft lottery, the, the expansion draft. Mm hmm. I worked that. And in the commercial break after the draft, we were like, Oh, no, bro. I don't think they really go. Yeah. And like, I remember, I remember feeling that way too, when, when that, when the roster was complete, I was like, Oh, okay. That's what it was. Yeah. Okay. And I'm so glad you brought up Natalie McCasay because what we talk about so much on this show is that, you know, it goes all the way to the top, and then, you know, owner GM ownership above her, obviously. But when you have a coach who is able to get so much out of players and honestly, harness that feeling of, Hey, nobody thinks that we're going to be here. So what if we showed up that is such a powerful way to lead any organization and also to say, you know, whatever she's doing in there, it's a, it's creating an environment where everyone can see it and it can succeed. And I say, this isn't probably, it's made me say most, when talking about sports is, you know, individual character does not determine as much as environment when it comes to individual action. If you're in a good environment, it makes it possible for everyone to rise to this level. And I think to your point about about fans, you know, driving narratives and what you click on, it also, it does play a role in how a team can sort of charge onto the scene with the fans of Golden State who have just been, you know, so psyched from the second the team was announced. And that's it. It's just, yeah, we love talking about how the health of an organization determines so much more than even like a star player to, to our point about the roster. Clearly, because again, we all just went. The Valkyries fans had sold that place out before they named a single player. Like their enthusiasm never waned. And a lot of that give credit to Jess Smith, their president, who is amazing. She's one of those women that like no matter what room she's not in, people are talking about her. And they are talking about her in a way that's like amazing and incredible. And like, I hope she knows that. Jess, every room I know. And when you're named at the end, it's like, Oh my God, it's amazing. She's so smart. She's incredible. Hema is amazing. So I think you're right. They really have shown that like, it's all about construction of team building a really great organization from the ground up. I think that's one of the things that was a struggle for Portland when they were first coming into this league is that like foundationally, they were a bit of a mess. Like firing people, you know, before you really even got this thing started, where you got the train going. And so, you know, sometimes you have to just like see your way through it and figured out as you go along, it feels like gold and stay had that thing strapped and ready to go. Yes. And then they add these pieces like a Gabby Williams, who gives them that push that they needed last year, but they're still really strong. And, and then I think to all of the players that play at Golden State, just talk about how, you know, they were a bit of the island of misfit toys as most of these expansion teams are because you're just getting cast off on other team. And they just felt like they found a home at Golden State and that they were valued and they were appreciated by the fans, by the front office. And like, they feel like they're doing this thing together. And I just think it's like the, it's the best story. So we'll see if they can make some weight in a second half. Are there any other teams besides the Valkyries that you're excited going into the second half of the season? I mean, yeah, a few of them. Like, there's a few things that I'm really excited to watch for Asia. I know that like most mainstream, they yawn and they get so bored with someone being so dominant, but the idea that she could win a third straight MVP is so sick to me. Charity has more than anybody else. And she's averaging almost more or equal to, she could average more points per game in the second half of the season than she ever has before, right? I mean, like her numbers are crazy. And the fact that also like, she's doing this partly because I mean, this defense hasn't been necessarily what it needs to be. So then Asia's like, okay, what, maybe I'll just go score more points. That, that's crazy. And pick up a new part of her game. Now all of a sudden she's shooting 45% from three. I'm like, wait a minute, that's not fair. If you can shoot threes to Asia at a career high, by the way, like that, it just really doesn't seem fair. And I think again, I'll be the first one to admit, like, you know, greatness fatigue is a thing. I got to a point with Tom Brady where I was like, we get it, bro. We get the f**k out here. We get it. Like we get it. You're the greatest of all time when you feel away. And people love to just grow tired of, you know, watching people dominate. But we really just don't give, I don't think we give enough respect or credit to Asia because she literally will have her year where she sets a million records and does sh**, no one's ever done. And then she's the next year. Does it again? And then she's again, and it's, it almost feels impossible to keep elevating when you're already in the stratosphere, but she still finds a way to keep doing it. And this year it's adding, you know, the three point attack to her game. It's just like, yeah, she's ridiculous. Yeah, they're going to miss her when she's gone, too. That's the thing. They'll be like, oh, I'm so sick of how good she is. And then she'll go away. And it'll be like, we were so lucky to have Asia in the air of Asian Wilson. Like I feel like we, you know, we need to be accepting of that a little bit more and embrace that and be more excited to watch what else that she can do. I think the links are terrifying. I mean, this is a lose team that was already 22 and six. We got Lisa back. Yeah, go. A little while has been so freaking fun to watch. So fun to watch, you know, run away, [BLANK_AUDIO] the year undoubtedly, but like I think they're super exciting. I feel like the links, I described this, obviously she won't be on the running for it this year because she was hurt, but I feel like, you know, Naphisa Collier is a little bit like the Kevin Durant till LeBron James or LeBron kept winning the MVP's, even though Katie like absolutely in a vacuum should have won any of those years that he lost to LeBron. And that she's just, she's living in an era of Asia Wilson. Right. And it's like so unfortunate because like you really could just make Asia your MVP every single year and it wouldn't even be a debate. But I feel like this links team is like one of those teams that, you know, win not as many people or paying attention to the league. They were the dynasty, you know, the word that is is they always there, you know, in the Maya more years and all these Hall of Famers that were coming through and all the championships that they won. And now that they have all this attention, they're kind of the bridesmaid and never the bride. And so I would love for this to be the year where they can sort of like reassert themselves as a legitimate contender by winning because you always contender. And so I think they're going to be super exciting to watch. Obviously, the Valkyries, I mentioned the fever as well, like they're hitting a streak. The fever for me, it's always going to come down to defense. Can they play enough defense to compete with these teams that can also outrun and gun. But if you are averaging 122 points in game, I suppose you can beat anybody. Yeah, crazy. They are running right now. They are running. I just love Kelsey Mitchell's interview after the All Star game too, where she would she's I mean it's it really is so fun. And I think that part of what we're seeing too is people not know how to talk about women in general as something surges into a spotlight, especially women who are of it's just when you when you look at people individually, it is it is so exciting and so fun. And I think that to your point, fans can can go a long way to engage with the things that you want to hear. And and you know us in the media, we we the media is a mirror too. And a lot of ways, yes, to your point, there's culpability. But you talk about the things that people care about. And I think that it's going to go both ways as we as we head into the second part of the season here. El, we cannot thank you enough for your time. You bring in a world without nuance. You bring so much of it and you're so funny and and just brilliant. So thank you for gracing our show with your presence. Where can people find you? Although I think they all know. Yeah. On Netflix, the next thing I'll be doing is the field of dream game. So fun. So cool. So cool. Being in a foreign field in Iowa. That would my tongue planted firmly in my cheek. No, it's actually bucket list field of dreams with my favorite kids growing up. So our movie is growing up. So this is going to be super cool. And then yeah, across Netflix. And then obviously since we're in the WNBA, you can check us on USA sports. We have the first round of the playoffs and we have the finals you guys. The final for the WU is on USA Sports. We did it. El for the finals. Oh, my God. The biggest honor for my viewing experience is to see your finals. I'm going to put you on the spot. What two cities will I be going to Madeline and Charlotte? Oh, my God. You're going to be going, I think you're going to be going to Minnesota. Okay. To Minneapolis. Rather than Minnesota is not a city. You know, I mean, I hope it's links fever because that would be crazy talented. Sick actually. That would be wild. I could see that. I could see that. I could see that. I could see that. That would be super sick actually. Yeah. Who's winning it? I'm I'm saying links. Yeah. I'm going to links. What do you think? Because I want that to be true. And I want Nafisa to have that coming back from an injury to you know, you can will things into existence, right? I love that. I love that. Well, of course, that's going to be the finals outcome. I love it. We love it. Fever links in the finals. Let's go. All right. There you go. Call it now. Thank you so much, El. We will talk to you soon. Absolutely. What a great conversation. Just the thing. You know, seriously, I got to do it. Is you, she deserved it. No, she deserved it. Really? Ellis, someone who I feel like is such a huge star and his remains so true to herself and what she believes in. Yes. In a way that a lot of people when they get to a certain level of their career get nervous about saying what they actually think. And she is such a shining example of keeping your integrity while also working and making yourself as successful as possible. And it's just really cool. Yeah. No, I agree. Just her sticking up for what she believes in when she has such a huge platform is just amazing to see and really inspiring. And I think something we're always striving to do on the show. So she is really welcome back anytime, any day of the week. I'll record it in my pajamas in bed if that's the only time she's available. Oh, wow. Anytime. Ellie, you hear that? Anytime. Anytime. I'll wake up. I'll just wake up in bed and just put my computer and Riverside. It feels like now. I'm coming to show my microphone. I'll just use a little. We should do it. Well, mini mic or something. We should record lying down someday. That sounds. That's you know, there's some podcasts. They do like record in a bed. Do you know what I'm trying to say? I know, but that all I'm going to be honest that don't say what they are because I respect some of the people who do it, but it does make me a little uncomfortable. Yeah. Well, I don't need to be being lined up. It's nice. It's audio only. Sure. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Anyways, that was great. Thank you again. If you're listening now, we so appreciate you coming back for a second time. And we hope you'll come back for a third time, which I think she will. Well, cross our cross our little fingers crossed. All right. Well, that's our show folks. Madeline, take it away. As always, please rate, review, like and subscribe. It makes a huge, huge difference. You can follow us on Instagram at sports gossip TikTok at sports gossip show. You can follow us. Those places I already said that. Subscribe to our substagnets for its gossip show on @substagnetcom. Oh, merch, merch linked in the description. And yeah, I think that's it. That's it. Okay. Bye.