Elizabeth Smart: Kidnapped at 14 & held captive for 9 months

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Se on tärkeää, että se on tärkeää, että se on tärkeää. - Ja, se on tärkeää. -I'm a very late bloomer. -He started while he went to bed. -The man is Brian David Mitchell. -Mitual claims to hear the voice of God. -Is it worth surviving? For everyone to look at me differently? -Is it worth surviving if nobody is ever going to love me or want to be with me? -How does the teaching in the church need a change? -I really don't care what your beliefs are. -I have to teach the other side. -Did you forgive your captors? -I think I probably have my own definition of forgiveness. -Trigor warning. This episode contains detailed discussions and depictions of sexual assault and involving minors. We understand this material is deeply disturbing and can be triggering for survivors. Please prioritize your wellbeing. If you or someone you know has experienced sexual assault, support is available and healing is possible. You can reach the Rain National Sexual Assault Hotline at 800-656 Hope, or connect online at Rain.org. Reporting can save a life. -Azabeth, welcome to Unplanned. -Thanks for being here. -Thank you so much for being here. I feel like every parent's biggest irrational fear is that their child would be taken from the home in the middle of the night without them knowing. And that became a reality for you and your family. Why do you choose to continue to share your story and what do you hope people gain from our conversation here today? -Well, initially when I was first rescued I didn't want to talk about what had happened. I didn't want anyone to know anything that had happened. And I just wanted it to stay in my past. I just wanted it to stay a secret. The trial took so long. I mean, the better part of a decade before one of my captors was finally prosecuted. And during that time, I felt like I was being interrogated. But I suppose interview would probably be the correct word by FBI, the prosecution, really intensely. And then I had to take the stand. And I was on the stand for hours and hours. And at that point, I recognized that anyone could go look up the court transcripts to find out what happened. And I remember just feeling like if my story is going to be out there, then I want to give it my perspective. Not just have it be like bullet points or facts listed out. And I want there to be some kind of purpose to it because from the time that I was rescued to the time that I took the stand and testified, I did have the opportunity to meet with a lot of victims. And I did hear a lot of their stories. And it was a very common theme that I heard how they were too scared to share their stories or that they felt alone because nobody else was out there sharing their story. And they felt a great sense of shame and embarrassment around what had happened to them. So I just remember it kind of felt like, I don't want to say a perfect storm. So I looked back and I'm like, there's no way any of that was perfect. For me to share my story on a bigger scale, to really step fully into advocacy, I feel like all of that played a part in getting me there. How do you tell your story to someone that hasn't heard it before? Because obviously there's a lot of people that know your story and know it very well. But how do you explain that to someone who meets you for the first time and doesn't really know? Well, it's not just the first words out of my mouth. I'm like, oh, I'm Elizabeth. I was kidnapped. Nice to meet you. I was held captive for nine months. I mean, like if I honestly, I want to say it's not part of my daily life. It is because I'm in the field of advocacy. But I mean, if I just met someone for the first time, I probably wouldn't even bring it up. But I just let them get to know me for me. I mean, I feel like people find out one way or another or they're like, what do you do for a living? I'm like, oh, well, yeah, I have a non-profit. No, I do public presentations or I speak. And they're like, oh, really? What's your non-profit about? And they're like, what do you do put? And then it's like, oh, well, I talk. And then they're like, oh, how'd you get into that? Well, it's a whole story behind all this. Well, actually. Yeah, I've heard it said before and it's so true. Like, if someone were to ask me, what did you do on January 16th of 2025? I'd be like, I couldn't tell you, but there's certain days that are so pivotal in your life that you probably remember every detail. I'm curious, taking you back to when you were 14 years old, like, that day. What do you remember about that day and then going into that evening? I mean, honestly, like, it was a normal day. There wasn't anything really crazy or abnormal about it. It was just another normal day. I went to school, came home. I mean, I come from a big family, so I had a lot of brothers and my sister kind of running around. We had dinner as a family. My parents gathered us together for our evening prayer and then sent us into bed. And it was just another day. It was just another night. And you were sharing a bed with your younger sister? Yes. And around what time were you woken up? Do you know? At one point in time, I did actually know the exact minute because I had, like, a clock right next to me. But it's been so many years now that I feel like it was in between two and three. It was very late at night or very early in the morning, however you look at it. And what were the words that you heard that woke you up? So I heard a man's voice. And actually, initially, I didn't even respond at first because you don't plan on hearing a strange voice in your room in the middle of the night. I thought it must be part of a dream. But the voice repeated the same words again, saying, "I have a knife at your neck. Don't make a sound. Get up and come with me." Wow. I can't even imagine being in that position. Did a part of you even think to scream? No. I mean, there was a knife lying right on my neck. The first words out of his mouth, besides telling me were telling me he had a knife, was "don't make a sound." So no, that thought did not even cross my mind that I should do that. I mean, my life felt like I could either stay quiet and live or I could say something in scream. It didn't really feel like there was that much of an option. And also here, at least I feel like I was taught a lot of safety education. I mean, you know, you've got fire drills, you've got earthquake drills, like it's a stranger danger, the buddy system. I think there's probably more education in schools today, like active shooter education, but I mean, that wasn't in school when I was. But there were still lots of safety education going on back then, but none of it ever covered what you should do if you're woken up in the middle of the night with a stranger holding a knife to your neck. So it just felt like there was no option. How did your brain start to protect you? I noticed you said something about how, yeah, your brain kicks into protection mode and figures out a way forward. What did your brain do in those first days, weeks, months to protect yourself? Initially, it just felt like devastation. Initially, I really didn't know if I could survive. I really didn't know if it was worth trying to survive. Eventually, I realized that maybe I'd be looked at differently by people who didn't know me, but ultimately my family would still love me, and that would be worth surviving for. So I needed to do just whatever I had to to survive. That's an incredibly dark thought. Yeah, why did you believe a thought like that when you're in captivity that maybe people aren't going to love you anymore? Because nobody was out there talking about nobody openly talked about sexual assault or sexual violence, and then he talked that even came remotely close to it, which still wasn't remotely close to it. Was when I'd go to church and people would be like, "Oh, if you have sex before marriage, it's like you're a chewed up piece of gum. If you have sex before marriage, sex before marriage is bad, sex before marriage means you're dirty, means you're worthless, means you're not as worthy, they won't want to marry you." And first of all, I want to say, I don't care if people believe in abstinence. I don't care if people don't believe in abstinence. I really don't care what your beliefs are. I think it's fine. I just think, no matter what, if you are going to teach abstinence, you have to be very clear. You have to teach the other side and be like, "This is. This is a. abuse. This is not your fault. This is not the same thing as true intimacy. This is not the same thing as consent. This is what coercion is. This is can still happen between a boyfriend and a girlfriend, between a husband and a wife. It's not just a stranger thing. Like, I think you really need to spell it out. Because otherwise, you'll be like me where you sit there and you think, is it worth surviving for everyone to look at me differently? Is it worth surviving if nobody is ever going to love me or want to be with me? I mean, I know I'm not alone in having those thoughts. I've met too many people who share those same thoughts with me to know that I'm not alone. You talked about in a YouTube video that you posted how there's a demonstration you had. I don't know where exactly this demonstration happened, but basically how you're given a piece of gum, you shoot up the piece of gum, and then you were asked, okay, now would your friend want to chew up that piece of gum too? It was a church. It was a church. It just made me so sad hearing that. Because yeah, I just thought about all the young girls that are taught that chewed up piece of gum demonstration and then how that makes them feel if they are a victim of a soul of insert blank. It just made me heartbroken and I guess the question I wanted to ask is how does the teaching in the church maybe need to change or teaching all around America and the world need to change for girls when it comes to that topic? I mean, it doesn't need to just change for girls. It needs to change for boys too because ultimately the only way we could ever fully stop sexual abuse from happening is for abusers to stop abusing. Because I mean my foundation, we have whole programs trying to empower victims, trying to empower women to just be able to get away safely, to take up space, to be able to at least know they're strong enough that they know that they can strike someone or they can kick someone or that they can do something to get away. But again, like at the end of the day, if someone is intent on whether it's you or someone else, they will and so the only way we can eliminate that is to do better on all friends, to not just teach girls, but also teach boys. And another tragedy is, you know, boys, they are getting sexually abused, not as much as girls, but still at a very high level, a very high level. And I'll never forget, back when I was single, I went on a date one time with a young man. And at the end of the date, he started asking me a question, like we were just chatting. And then finally, he's like, I just have to ask you a question. You were so many times, was there ever just a point where you just like, like, okay, well, I can't stop this from happening. So I'm just going to lay back and enjoy it. Because, you know, for me, I just feel like if there is no way out of it, I'd probably just lay back and enjoy it. And I was so shocked that anyone would ever say that to me first of all. I was just like, are you kidding me? But then also that, just like that mentality that he had in that moment, that is poison to any other young man who has ever been sexually abused because they look at themselves and think, well, I'm weak. I'm a man. I should be enjoying this. Yeah. Or like, like, I should look at this. Like, I'm so awesome. I have this happened to me, or I should have liked it, but I don't feel good inside. Or, I mean, it's so harmful to young men, so harmful. I mean, harmful to anyone, harmful to everyone. So I think we have a lot to do. I mean, I feel like just as an example, this is an issue that should be really approached from every angle, should be approached in the home, should be approached at school, community centers, churches, religions, I should be approached from all sides. So a lot of times, when I go out and speak, I'll ask people, you know, what do you do if you catch on fire? What do you do? Stop, drop and roll. Yeah. Did you even have to think about that answer? No, just came out. Yeah. I was taught it from a young age. Yeah. Exactly. When I go out and speak, I'll ask people, how many of you have actually ever used stop, drop and roll? Wait a minute. Okay. Why is it, people are being sexually abused so much more than people are catching on fire. Why do we teach kids to stop, drop and roll? But we don't teach them how to approach sexual assault. That's exactly what I'm saying. Like, I will maybe have one or two hands go up in a room full of 600 people for stop, drop and roll. Maybe one or two hands. But like the national average for people who experience sexual violence, it's about one in five women. Goodness. In Utah, it's one in three. Oh gosh. If you are indigenous, African-American, if you are one of the minority populations, it's not if it happens to you. It's really when it happens to you and how many times. Is it like one out of two? Is it like what are the stats there? I mean, it's it's over 50%. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't spit out exact numbers for every population, but I know if like you're a native or indigenous person, it's I mean, it's almost everyone. And why is it happening more in those communities than it is in other communities? I feel like I'm getting into like more difficult territory to talk about. And I feel like certainly there are people definitely more qualified to answer this because there are some really incredible organizations led by created by indigenous people themselves or African-Americans themselves. So definitely look them up, support them. But my understanding is that there's a look just different laws. If you are abused on a reservation, then it's left to like the reservation police. But if that person leaves the register reservation, then it's kind of like, well, whose jurisdiction does that fall under? And how do I go after them? And there's just like a lot of you think it wouldn't matter. You think like you see abuse happening. It wouldn't matter if you're on this side of the street or that side of the street. Yeah. But it does. And then there's just, they're not as visible as, say, someone like me. I mean, as sad and as terrible as it is. Like, you know, if I had different hair, if I had different skin color, would my case have gotten as much attention as it did. You know, if my family like didn't have the connections that they had, if if we were in a different, you know, economic situation, would my case have gotten the same publicity that it did? It's hard for me to believe that it would have. Because I don't know that I've ever seen another case received the same level of attention that mine did. And certainly not for any of those minority groups. Does that ever leave you with, like, a feeling of guilt? I mean, on one hand, like, it does make me angry and upset. When I think it's roughly about every 78 seconds, a person is sexually abused in every nine minutes. That person is a child. And so it makes me really upset because you, you don't even really hear like the tiniest fraction of those cases. I know my case received so much. But at the same time, I also look back and I'm kind of like, if my case hadn't have received the attention that it did, there's a pretty good chance I wouldn't be here today. So I'd say it's kind of like a catch-22. When starting out a new business, the to-do list keeps going every day with new tasks, and it seems never ending. That's why it's important to find the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything. 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That Shopify.com/unplanned It had a lot of good conversation on like the topic of intimacy sexual violence Consent all these things like with children and now you are a mom yourself to three young kids I'm curious when those conversations started with your own children and How they look different from how you were raised So one of the best pieces of parenting advice I was given was the right time to start talking about things is when your kids start asking questions And I agree with that completely, but also I Recognized the fact that these are really big heavy scary topics that like Of course, you want to educate your kids. You want to keep them safe, but at the same time How do you talk to them about it without scaring them? You don't want them to live in fear. Yeah Honestly, I think one of the easiest ways to begin is like when you're talking about body parts with your kids like you're like Where your eyes and they point to the eyes? Where's your nose? Where's your mouth? Where's your elbow? And you know, they're just learning the different names of different body parts you know teach them to say penis teach them to say vagina or a vulva and Don't attach shame to it because for example I mean my parents just were like they're your privates. They're your privates. They're your privates like no privates And that's all we really referred to them as then I was kidnapped everything happened Just I think it was the second day. I was home. I was brought to the Children's Justice Center where I was heavily I'm going to say interrogated by these two Psychiatrists that my parents had been told if I'd talked them they could stand as proxy for me during the trial Of course that didn't happen, but wait. Why why didn't why did that not happen? I mean there were just so many problems with my case I mean my case it was in the state courts for Almost five years if it had hit five years the statute of limitations would have been up and my captors would have been released So before the five years was I was approached by the US attorney's office here in Utah and asked if I wanted to Move it to federal courts if I wanted to try to press federal charges and of course I did I didn't want them out So then it was moved to the federal courts, but there was I don't even know the exact reasons why they couldn't why they didn't end up Standing witness for me or standing in proxy for me, but for whatever reason they didn't but It was it was a terrible experience for me, and I'm not saying these men were mean or that they weren't qualified but I First of all, I didn't want to go anywhere. I just got home and then I said like okay, you have to go and I didn't like I didn't like having my choices taken away from me because that all been taken away from me for nine months I was brought to this place I remember they opened a closet door and they're like oh here's a stuff down Would you like to hold one on I remember just thinking? Where were the stuffed animals? Well, I was being chained up and There was a if I can do it through that without a stuffed animal. I don't need one now I mean that felt quite condescending to me I know that they were only trying to do their best. Yeah, but I just was like that is not gonna help Can you know what I made of sir? And And then I was brought into this room and there were these two men in there like I was scared to be around men I didn't trust men They were roughly the same ages my captor so that made me feel uncomfortable and then They were both clearly religious Different religion than mine, but that also just made me feel uncomfortable because My captors had justified everything they did to me through religion So there was nothing that felt good about this situation just from the very get go and then as they try to find out What happened to me as they asked questions? They got to a point where they're like so tell me what happened and I said well, they hurt me Well, how they hurt you? Well, they molest me. Well, how they molest you? Well They they raised me and they're like, okay, well, can you tell do you know what business like? Yes, and they're like well, can you explain what biz to us? Can you tell me what exactly he did? I was like well, he you know, he pushed himself inside me and they're like well You need to say the anatomically correct body parts So how to get into such detail where I was saying he was forcefully pushing his penis into my vagina repeatedly and Having never even grown up feeling comfortable saying those words. Yeah, that whole experience was Terrible so now as a parent I look at my own kids and I'm like Heaven forbid anything ever happened to you, but if it does I want the least of your worries to be like comfortable Comfort with using like body specific words. I want that to not even be a blip on your radar like I want to make this as least traumatizing for you as possible and so there should be shame attached to body parts like How is a penis any different from a knee or an elbow or an eye like it's just part of your body and so I? Try my best to Make sure my kids don't feel uncomfortable saying the correct body parts No, that I just want them running around screaming penis all day or anything else. I mean all that that's happened It happens quick I appreciate you saying that though because it's easy as a parent to be like well, you know That that happens to other people, but it's like not my kid, you know or I'm too involved in my kids I'm around my kids all the time that won't happen. I won't let it happen exactly. I'm a good dad my present father That's never gonna happen. I don't they don't need to use that anatomically correct term But or like you know stranger danger stranger danger don't talk to strangers like honestly Strangers are probably safer than the people you know most kidnappings most abuse that takes place comes from people You know how is how that that's so upsetting to hear that because because when I hear about right here about People molesting people like I just think of it as this like stranger this horrible, you know bad guy from a movie type character Coming in and like doing something awful But you're what you're saying is it's actually people's family or friends typically. Yeah, yeah It is very rare that it's a stranger. I want to say it's like two percent of the time. It's a stranger I mean we certainly hear about the stranger ones a lot more than we hear about family But family and like kind of that that close circle of of people who you trust those are the biggest threats I mean it's why when a child is kidnapped when a child disappears and law enforcement comes in the first people They look at are the parents and that's what they did with your dad. That's what they did with. Yeah with my parents. Yeah Did you ever think while you're in captivity that maybe your dad was going to get wrongfully convicted? Oh never Not for a second and when I was rescued and I heard that he had come under like incredible scrutiny I was just like what's wrong with you my dad would never hurt me. It would never kidnap me like You must not be very smart if you think that but now of course knowing everything. I know I'm like Yeah, you know what I understand why they did that not that it was like a pleasant experience for anyone in my family I think it was all hell for everyone, but like I do understand why they did it and you know when I speak to families who have had a Child go missing. I'm like as terrible as it is as uncomfortable as it is Cooperate with law enforcement like answer whatever question they have do whatever you have to do Declare yourself so that your focus can stay on your child and finding your child and bringing your child home I can't imagine the frustration that would be that would feel like even though like you're saying they're doing this in The best interests of the child like the most statistically common resolution, but I can't imagine being your parents position, especially your dads where they look for my daughter. It's not me There's been a conversation of Revictimization that's come up recently that I've heard I'm curious if you Deam your trial like that whole years-long process and Everything that went into your case as well as it sounds like your experience at the child justice center Would you consider that? Revictimization. I mean I felt like My experience of the Children's Justice Center like that was a bad experience I was not I don't look back on that and have anything positive to say about it I do think things have come so far since then There's so many more better practices now and people are just I'd say much more Trauma informs trauma aware. I want to say I don't think that would ever happen again I think we've come that far. It's hard to speak in absolutes But I believe that that would be the exception and not the norm these days I do think we've made so much progress in in the field of of forensic interviewing and how we treat at least at these specific children's justice centers, children advocacy centers and how we interact with victims. I think they've come such a long way from when I went through it. I think everyone's gonna have a little bit different answers to what's traumatizing for them. And I guess for me, there's only been a couple times in all the years that I've ever spoken about what's happened to me that I felt truly uncomfortable and it's never been on a podcast, it's never been on an interview, it's been when there's been incredibly deep digging when one of the psychiatrists for the federal case had to get my side of the story. And I mean, he asked very difficult hard questions about very intimate details that that was hard for me. And I didn't like talking about it and I didn't wanna talk about it. And then again, when I was interviewed interrogated again for the trial by the FBI and preparation for the case, it was not good, it was miserable, but also I recognized that this needs to happen. Like I will, this chapter is going to go on forever unless I do what I have to do to be done with it. And so I did. And I guess at the same time, maybe that's just the kind of person I am. Like let's, no, I don't wanna take a break, I just wanna get through it and I wanna get it over with. Let's just keep going, get what you need and be done. - Hearing you talk about being basically interrogated by a psychiatrist or two psychiatrists for hours on end, sounds horrible. I mean, what is changing now to make this system better, to have reform in the system? And then what would you like to see continue to change? That doesn't exist today. - So in many of these children's justice centers, or children's advocacy centers, they have really streamlined the process. So the day I was rescued, it was a little bit of a mess really. It was kind of all over the place, but I was taken from one police station to another police station. I was reunited with my family. I was taken away from my family to be questioned by the police, separate from my family. And then I was taken to the hospital and then I was finally brought home. And then it was a day or two later that I was taken to the Children's Justice Center. So I mean overall, I wasn't just interviewed one time whereas nowadays, things like many of the centers that I've toured, their process is much more streamlined. If a child comes in, unfortunately, I'd say most of the time they've been abused by a man, not always, but much of the time. And so typically talking to a female is gonna feel safer than talking to a man. So it's not always, but I would say much of the time is a woman they're coming into talk to. There's so many different things to take into account. I mean age, maturity level, do they have any special needs? These forensic interviewers, they're trained in all these different ways. If it's a very young child, they might not have all the words, so it might be more kind of like drawing-based. They will have maybe a two-way mirror so that the forensic interviewers in there, and they have like an air piece in and a police officer can stand on the other side and say like these are the things we need to get. And so the forensic interviewer can talk to the victim in like a compassionate way, help them to share whatever they need to share so that law enforcement has what they need to then prosecute or to hold. Hold the perpetrator until there's a case or something to move forward with. Much of the time now, I'd say almost most of the time. And again, just in my experience in the centers that I've toured, they will have a sane nurse on hand. So sexual assault, nurse examiner, who it will, she'll be in the same building so it's not like police station, hospital, other location, it's all kind of like one place where the nurse can check for make sure that they're okay, make sure that they're safe, and then treat anything that needs to be treated and then collect any evidence that might need to be collected. But again, like in a very trauma-informed way, try to, like for example, I think it's so helpful when, I mean, just like even now as an adult when I go and to like see the doctor, the doctor's like, okay, I just, this is what I'm gonna do and I'm gonna tell you what I'm gonna do it and I want you to tell, like that very clear communication, I think makes a big difference and that's what these nurses do. I mean, and they're just some of the most compassionate and kind and empathetic people you will meet. And then many of these organizations, they also have their therapists right there on site and many times there can be emergency housing right there on site or they have their safe houses or you know, if you don't have clothes, they'll have clothes on hand, they'll have food on hand. So it's almost, I don't want to say one stop shopping, that makes it sound like fun, funny or trivial. It's not, but I mean, they really have made a big effort to make it as least traumatizing as possible. - Who was someone that showed compassion to you that helped you get out of the horrible place you were in as a kid? I mean, yeah, maybe there was like a family member or a friend or someone that just like helps walk you through it and showed up for you. - I mean, when I was rescued, I kind of like what I was saying earlier, I didn't want to talk about what happened and I remember while I was held in captivity, I felt like the world was just moving on without me and I was like, how can, like, how can the rest of my year be starting high school? They're starting high school without me. Like, they're joining sports teams without me. They're doing all of these things without me. They're just moving on with their life. So when I got back, I was like, I never want to miss anything ever again. Like, I want to do everything. So I don't really feel like I was in a very excited place. - You were excited. - Well, I was just rescued. It was just brought back from my family. - Yeah, and you just wanted to like put the past in the past and just read about it? - Yeah, I knew what had been taken from me already and I felt like it was being given back. Like, I didn't want to lose this second chance at life. I felt like I'd been given. - What was it your mom said to you? There's a powerful quote. I think you said it in a TED talk. Abby told me-- - I remember it from 12 years ago when I first listened to your TED talk. What you said your mom said, like, very soon after you were rescued. - Yeah, she just said to me, Elizabeth, what these people have done to you is terrible. There aren't words strong enough to describe how wicked and evil they are. They've stolen nine months of your life. The best punishment you can give them is to be happy. And not let them steal a single second more. I agree with that, but anyone listening to this, I wouldn't want them to think you just push your trauma under the rug, like I think basically what it means is don't give up on yourself. Like, believe in happiness. You might not feel happy right now, but believe it exists, believe that you can have it. Like, keep, keep reaching for it because you deserve it. - Did you forgive your captors? - So, I guess my short answer is yes. My long answer is, I think I probably have my own definition of forgiveness. - What is it? - I mean, I don't think forgiveness. Like, I feel like when we think of forgiveness, it's easy to kind of think about it. Like, at recess, like playground forgiveness, where like someone pushes you down and you cry and you run into the teacher and the teacher makes that kid say sorry and then you say okay, and then you go and be friends or like between siblings or something, just like very simple. To me, I don't, I don't think that's forgiveness. I think forgiveness is the greatest gift of self-love. It's loving yourself enough to put down the weight of your past. So, do I think is okay? No, I'll never be okay with it. Do I think kidnapped means okay? Do I think hurting a child is okay? No, I will never be okay with any of those things. But I also love myself enough that I don't want my history to hold me back. I don't want my past to stop me from living my life the way I want to. And so, I feel like I love myself enough that I'm not going to let my captors consume my energy, my time, my bandwidth. And so, I never want to see them. I never want to see one of my captors out of prison. Yeah, I don't want to ever have anything to do with them. But they also don't take up any more space in my life. Wow. That's incredible. I mean, in you of all people have, in my opinion, every right to not forgive after hell that you went through, I think that's really powerful. And I think there's a lot that I can learn from that that everyone listening can learn from that. I mean, the horror of your experience. I mean, I still want to get, like, talk more about it. But also, the Netflix documentary is so good. And your book is so good. So, people can read your book. People can watch the documentary. I did see, though, when I was looking at videos, I think it's so cool that you have a YouTube channel and you're doing advocacy work on YouTube. too, that's so rad, that's so cool. I did see that one of your captors is out of prison and that she was arrested because she went into a park. And that's a no-no for her because she lost that, right? I mean, how do you feel after going through what you went through, how do you feel about her being out of prison? It was a disappointment. I remember when she was released. I remember the governor of Utah coming on and saying, oh, she's going to be on a very short leash and if she puts a toe out of line, like she knows straight back where she's going. I mean, she's a registered sex offender. So they're not allowed within a certain distance of schools, of elementary schools, they're not allowed in public parks. And she went to the park and she said, God commanded her to feed the ducks. And-- Seriously, that's actually what she said. That's as far as I understand you on that's what she said. Do you think that she's mentally ill? Do you think it's an act? I have mixed feelings. I have mixed thoughts because like on one hand, she was before she was married to my other captor. She came from a previous marriage. And she had six kids in her previous marriage. Yeah. How could a mother of six kids be OK with that? Exactly. Exactly. She not only sat there and watched me be abused, but she encouraged it. I think she wanted to feel special. And I think she wanted to feel important. And I think she found that feeling from my other captor, Brian Mitchell, who would tell her things like, well, you're the mother of Zion. And you're a queen. And God has a throne on the right hand of him, waiting for you. And you've suffered so much. And so I think initially she would have just-- she would have known, 100%. She would have been like, no, absolutely not. Like, this is wrong. But I also think she-- it didn't just happen overnight. I mean, it's like cases of grooming. When people hear about grooming, they don't actually realize it's a very slow process of little by little by little by little. Until one day, you're looking at-- or someone from outside looking at it is like, this is not OK. This is not normal. How did it ever get to this point? Well, it didn't go from 0 to 100 the same day. I mean, this is days, weeks, and months, sometimes even years. And I feel like that's kind of what happened in this case in her case. It didn't just happen overnight. It was days, and weeks, and months, and years, of him telling her these things so that she would be like, oh, you're right. You know what? I deserve a handmaid, and I deserve someone to take care of me. Yes, she can be wife number two. And she's going to do what I have to say. Was there manipulation on her? Yes. Was she crazy? She allowed herself to be manipulated. It became easier to believe the manipulation than the truth. It's always going to be easier to play the victim than the predator in hindsight. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Does she probably have some mental health issues? Yeah, she does. But do I think she's crazy? No. I think the fact that your abusers were a male and female, like, duo is unique in a way. And also, it baffles me that a woman and a mother specifically could be a part of it. Kind of like we touched on earlier. How do you think that added complexity to your healing process? Because earlier, we were talking about how in the child justice center is like a young girl is usually being-- has been abused by a man. So they would want to talk to a female. How do you think that added any type of nuance to your specific story? I think it just made me more wary all around. I don't know that that had like a massive effect on me. I mean, growing up, I was always close to my mom and I always felt safe to my mom when I got home. But I think it just, as I met new people, as I came into contact with new people, like if I got an uncomfortable feeling, then I just ended up paying closer attention to that person or watched a little closer if I felt like they were crossing boundaries. I just kept my guard up a little bit more. A part of your story that stands out to me, probably one of the most is the instance that they highlighted in the documentary in which you were in a public library with Brian Mitchell. And you had your face covered. And you're in a public place and there's so many people around you while you're still kidnapped. And a police officer comes up to you guys. Can you kind of describe that situation? Because I can't even imagine being this close to freedom and then still having to walk away. Like, what was that feeling like, that devastation or what did it feel like to get so close to that freedom? You're absolutely right. It was devastation. I have been asked so many times over the years, like, oh, why didn't you scream? Why didn't you say something? There are so many reasons why I didn't. And it's not because I didn't want to. And I also just have to say, I feel like I know my case sounds so extreme and so out of the ordinary. But I think if you look at victims of domestic violence, you see the same thing. You had a car, you had a phone, you had a credit card, or you debit card, or whatever. It is never just as clean cut and as clear as just getting in your car and driving away. Or just for me in that moment, just opening my mouth and saying, yes, I'm Elizabeth Smart, please rescue me. I was a child when I was kidnapped. I'd lived a very sheltered life up until that point. From the time that I was kidnapped to the time that we were in that library that had already been months of abuse that had already been months of thinking I was going to be rescued and not. And he'd had a lot of time to hurt me, very, very badly, to follow through with any threat that he felt like following through with. I mean, it got to a point where he really did feel like he was invincible. And prior to my, well, even up to that moment, I didn't have interaction with law enforcement. I had no reason to. And I didn't know anyone personally who was in law enforcement. I mean, the closest interaction I ever had with law enforcement was the police officer who came to teach the dare program in fifth grade. And that was still one officer to what 25 kids. So it wasn't like there was a personal connection there. And I didn't know this officer. I didn't know if he could actually protect me. I did know my captor. I absolutely knew he could hurt me. And so it just felt like, felt very dangerous to me. The whole situation felt dangerous. The whole situation felt scary, felt intimidating. Wanda Barzi, she was sitting right next to me. She had just clamped her hand down on my leg. So I mean, I was physically being touched, which was like reminding me of everything that I'd already experienced and what they were capable of, doing if I didn't do what they said. So it was a very stressful situation. Because of course, I wanted to be rescued. But at the same time, I wanted to stay alive. And I wanted my family to stay alive. And I felt a lot of responsibility, not just for my own survival, but for their survival. Because my captors had said, if you don't do what we want, we'll go after your family. Well, they even told you that they were going to kidnap your sister and your cousin. And wasn't there something about Brian saying that he wanted seven people in his camp? Yes. Yeah. He wanted seven young wives. I was just the first. Did he ever attempt to take more? So he made two attempts. One was my cousin and the other was a girl. He actually never saw in person. He just saw a picture of her. It was while we were in California. He was looking for another girl to kidnap. He started going to churches to find that girl. And when you go to churches, people are nice. They're friendly to you. They're like, oh, you want to learn more? Why you come over to dinner tonight? And that's exactly what happened to him. A couple invited him over to dinner, saw a picture of a young girl. And turns out she was the daughter of the wife and her first husband. And she split up her time between the two families. That's all he ever saw of her was just her picture. Then he figured out-- he left. He figured out when she was going to be back with her mom. And that's when he went after her. And he fortunately was not successful. When you were in that library and the police officer was there, did any part of you think that if you would have tried to run or if you would have said, yes, I am Elizabeth Smart. Was any part of you like seeing how terrible Brian could be? Did you think that he might even go as far to kill the police officer? Oh, that was absolutely a possibility in my mind. He had successfully broken into my home. It held me hostage already for-- or not a hostage captive. perustin pyöräilyvaatteita valmistavan ornotin vuonna 2013. Mielestäni parasta Shopify saan se, että voimme harjoittaa liiketoimintaa ilman teknistä osaamista. Voimme hallinnoida yrityksen taustajaristelmiä ja frontendia sekä myydä verkossa, vaivattaa. Jos Shopify olisi pyöräilyvaruste, se olisi mielestäni itse polkupyörä. Sillä asiat hoidetaan ja meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu Shopify. Aloita ilmainen kokeilu, Shopify piste kom sivustolla. Meillä on todella aloittaa valmistavaa. Meidän liiketoimintamme ja meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu. Meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu aloittaa ja meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu. Meidän liiketoimintamme hoituu. Meidän liiketoimintamme hoitu. It's so determined that you were going to survive through this, that you had even made up in your mind that if it meant that you had to outlive your captors, like thinking you know that this could be, I mean, it would be decades, that you had decided, yes, still worth it. That's, I mean, that honestly takes my breath away. I cannot imagine that. It also like, I don't know, as a 14-year-old, does time mean the same as it does as an adult? I mean, I think it was like a little bit different concept. Like I knew I'd get older, I knew, like if I had to wait until they died, like I knew, I knew time would keep passing, I knew I'd be older, but also just, in my mind I was like I'm just going to do it. And now also looking back, like, did I really understand what that was? I mean, like what could have happened to me and all that time? Could I really have survived? I don't know. Was there ever a concern of pregnancy? Of course. Yeah. But I'm a very late bloomer. I did not start my period until December and I was rescued in March and do you started while you were in captivity? I started while I was in captivity, yeah. My period was not, I mean, it's never been normal to this day, but like back then it was like I was bleeding for three weeks, stopped for a couple of days and just start bleeding again. So it was very abnormal. Wow. Do you think part of that is because of the trauma? I mean, I couldn't speak from like a scientific background, but there's always kind of been a part of me that's kind of wondered, well, if I hadn't, like, if my body hadn't been treated the way it was, would my period have maybe even started even later? Yeah. I don't know. Did your dad just want to like kill this guy? Like, how did your dad not keep himself from like breaking into the prison and just like stabbing this dude? I don't know. Like, just as a father, I can't imagine the horror of having this happen. I mean, he never, he never talked to me about it, but I guess as I'm a parent now, I wouldn't, I would want my children, if something happened to my children, I would want them to feel like all of my focus was on them and that I was doing everything I could to make them feel safe and make sure that they felt taken care of and make sure that like, I was there and in a good mind frame to be the best parent I could be for them. Um, I'm sure my dad had thoughts. I'm sure my dad had feelings, but I never saw that side of him. How do you tell your story to your children? Um, I mean, it's, I'd say it just grew with them. My oldest could tell you the most and my youngest could tell you the least, but they could all tell you that I was kidnapped and I was hurt and then I was rescued. Mm-hmm. And how do you teach your kids about consent, about, about, yeah, how do you teach your kids about those topics? How do you talk to them in age-appropriate ways? I mean, again, it does start out very simplistic, like this is your body and nobody has the right to touch your body. You own this body. This is your body. And so if you don't want to give a hug to someone, you don't have to give a hug to someone. If you don't want to give a kiss to someone, you don't have to give a kiss to someone. Nobody has the right to touch you in a way that you don't want them to be touched. No one should see you naked unless you know it's me or my husband and we're helping you with something or we're at the doctor and I'm there with you. So we start off very small like that as like, as all my kids are in elementary school now, I've told them, you know, if anyone ever tries to touch you, if anyone ever tries to hurt you, you can do whatever you want to them. You want to punch them in the face, you go punch them in the face. You want to kick them in the crotch, like go kick them in the crotch. Like, and if you get in trouble with for it, and like the principal calls me down, I'm going to tell her you did exactly what I told you to do because you are too special to be hurt and nobody has the right to make you feel unsafe or hurt you. And so we have those conversations regularly. My kids have gone, gone to the point where they're like, "Mom, can I have a sleepover, mom? Can I?" No. There are no sleepovers. I'm sorry. Like, I'm happy for you to go, it's not played against anymore. It's hang out. Hang out. I'm happy for you to go hang out, but I will be picking you up. And if you want to hang out again tomorrow, we can plan that, but you're not spending the night. I'm happy for you to go. next to you. You don't know what they've been through. You don't know why they are the way they are. Also, you should not. your personal safety should take precedence over your fear of offending someone else. - Crime junkie says be weird, be rude, stay alive. - Do you listen to Crime junkie? - I was interviewed by the. - Yes! - Go away, okay. That's Abby loves true crime. - I heard that also when it was released. That was years ago. - There was, yeah. - Yeah. I really appreciate your vulnerability and honesty on your YouTube page. You had a conversation. You said many people had asked you after being rescued, well, since getting married, about intimacy and marriage after being a victim of sexual violence and how people were curious about that and how that took you back at first. But then you just honestly talked about how you navigated intimacy in a safe context after such a violent and unsafe circumstance. And I think that a lot of listeners can probably relate to that to some extent after having been victims themselves. Can you talk a bit about how you navigate healthy intimacy after being a victim of sexual violence? Well, I mean, right from the very beginning, I could have said no to my husband at any point in time. I could have said no when he first asked me out on a date. I could have said no when he first tried to kiss me. I could have said no when he asked me to marry him. I could have said no at any point in that road. Like I never was scared of him. I never felt threatened by him. I always felt like he respected me. I always felt like he loved me for me. And so every step along the way, it was yes. And like even to this day, I've never felt in danger from him. I've never felt that I needed to worry about being vulnerable with him. Like I just like I've said it before, but like from like the first time I walked off the plane in Scotland and he was waiting for me there, even though Scotland's a completely foreign country to me and is not my home, just like walking straight into his arms felt like home to me. And that's just that's just how it's always been. And it's always been like consent. It's always been like if we have sex, it's because we both want to. It's not because one of us is forced in the other. It's because we both want to. And I think really having the ability to say yes, the ability to say no has made all the difference for me. It's helped me recognize that you know what? Like true intimacy is not the same thing as real. They are different things. That's good. Your YouTube video about this very topic you talked about using like your senses and it was just really interesting like as a grounding technique. How like where did you learn that? How to ground like that? I mean honestly like again I did not come up with that. That was from listening to therapists speak at conferences that was listening to other people talk about their relationships. That was me learning from other people and then sharing the information that I've learned and honestly experimenting with. Isn't there like a certain technique though where you like think of three things or you name three things in the room? What is the exercise? There is but I couldn't tell you exactly what it is. I know it's been explained to me probably like 10 times however my retention is not always the best. But I know there are different like methods to help you like disconnect from your past and reconnect to the present. Yeah. And I feel like if you are struggling like you should go to a counselor or like specifically a sex therapist and they can help you find the best technique for yourself. Is that something that you had to do or that you experience is like going to someone like that? I did not. I think if I had been kidnapped and abused like and I was older and I was in my 20s and I was already sexually active and I came home and like immediately jumped into other relationships. I think that I would have needed that. I think that would have been very helpful. But when I came back I mean that wasn't like I didn't come back to a boyfriend. I didn't come back to a relationship. I didn't come back to have sex. Like that was still years away. Correct me if I'm wrong but you didn't go to therapy right away after everything right? Like therapy took years or like maybe even a decade right? How long did it take you to go from being rescued to then actually making it into therapy? When I went to therapy it wasn't about my kidnapping. It was about my parents' divorce. You know I've like told my story. I've told my story in private to specific people but I never went through the process of therapy for what happened. That's fascinating to me. I do but for the record like I think therapy is great. Yeah. I believe in therapy. Like if you fill it's right for you. Like keep trying to tell you find the right modality, keep trying to tell you find the right therapist. If you don't feel like it's right for you there's nothing wrong with not going to it. Like you find what works for you. And when you went to therapy to talk to a therapist about your parents' divorce and how that affected you, did you talk about the horror of being kidnapped or was that even not even on the table just because you'd already worked through it? I maybe mentioned it but it wasn't about that. It was just more like to give context or reference from what I thought to what was happening. And if this is too much like too deep of question that's totally okay we don't have to answer this. But was your parents' divorce more traumatic for you than the kidnapping? It was just different. It was just something that I, I mean obviously I never dreamed I could be kidnapped but my parents being together that was like the foundation that I had built my life on. Like something I'd taken for granted that they'd never split up that they would always be together and all of a sudden it just felt like it broke our family apart. And so trying to figure out, still figure out ways forward you know because life is always changing. It's hard, it's just different. How old were you when that happened and you ended up going to therapy? Oh my parents divorced. My youngest was like a month old and so I guess seven years ago? Wow. And being postpartum that that would be a lot. One month out from your first. That's a crazy time of life to have something so unmooring as like your parents had been married your whole life or something like that to happen I can imagine. I feel like we hear a lot about, like you're so great about sharing your story when you're 14 and 15 and that we see you now and for years now being such a profound advocate and so great at sharing your story. I think there's a part in the middle that I'm curious about as far as like you said you were so eager to get back to do all the things that you had missed out on. Like I'm curious like how did you navigate peer relationships and maybe curious questions from your peers that are just trying they don't necessarily know how to ask adults don't know how to ask appropriate questions at times to victims. Like how did you navigate those maybe inappropriate questions from other teenagers? I don't know for sure but I think probably parents and/or teachers probably said don't ask her any questions about what happened because most most students didn't. I mean every now and then someone would and typically that was after they'd gotten to know me a little bit better but most didn't. Did you like that? They didn't ask. I mean on one hand yeah yeah I did like it because I didn't just want to be known as the girl that was kidnapped. On the other hand I think that sometimes maybe it kept people at arms length a little bit more than maybe they would have been otherwise. There's something to avoid here. Yeah. Did you find it hard to like did you just go right back to school? I mean I would have gone back the next day but my parents were like no so I did like school packets to like do the classes that were mandatory and then I started school in the fall. Okay. Coming back like after having not spoken to your parents in nine months. You had nine months worth of stories. How did your parents go about asking you questions about like how did they navigate getting filled in on this major gap they now had in your life? They didn't. We didn't. I mean I was as we kind of tried it about before I was interviewed by the two psychiatrists and then I know they went and talked to my parents. I don't know how detailed they told them what they told them but I know that they told them enough. Okay. But we We didn't like I didn't. want to talk about it and so my parents were just like we're here and you ever want to talk about it like we're here for you. If you don't want to talk about it that's okay too. Do you think that's the best approach? I mean that was for me. Yeah. Your foundation is doing all kinds of really awesome work and things from having a platform for victims to share their stories, self-defense classes which I find like particularly really like what a great resource. Yeah. What's the best way people can support the work that you're doing? I'd say of course follow us on social media, check out our website. We have our yearly fundraiser coming up in May. Amazing. I guess I don't know when this is going to air soon. Pretty soon. Perfect timing. Donate to the fundraiser. Yeah. So our fundraiser's May 13th. It's a garden party. My team is amazing. They're going to do like a great job. They always always feel like so. I guess humbled by them because they do so much and they're just amazing women. I feel so lucky to have them be on my team and working as hard as they do. Like it's such an important cause. So definitely come check out our fundraiser. Again that's May 13th. Just follow us on our social medias. I feel like I tried to Instagram Instagram Instagram. I'd focus mainly on Instagram but we are on Facebook as well and then we have our website but I'd also encourage you just to like get educated independently and like hopefully you know your child better than anyone else so you will know the best way to talk to them what they're ready for because everyone has a different maturity level and you know how much your child can handle but don't want these conversations just happen once and never revisit them. Make them a regular part of your life. I think communication is probably one of the most important things you can have as a parent is someone trying to change someone trying to teach. Make sure that your child feels like they can always tell you that they're not going to be scared to tell you and I guess the number one thing that I think that is the absolute most important thing any parent can teach their child is to let them know that they are loved unconditionally. That's great. That's a beautiful perfect note to end on and also check out your book too. I feel like it it can reach anyone survivors of any kind and anyone that just is looking going through a hard time finding resilience and so much of your story has impacted me for years. So it's very cool to have this conversation with you and I'm really glad that we also got to share it with all the listeners here. I just feel so inspired. I mean I think everyone at some point goes through hard things in their life and to hear your story and through the horror and trauma that you've been through and to see you come out on the other side as a as a victor and stronger and all this post-traumatic growth which is just incredible. I think it's just it's an inspiration for everybody so thank you so much for doing what you do. Thank you for having me. Of course. Thank you so much and thank you so much for your time. I wish you all the best for your life. Thank you so much for your time. I wish you all the best for your time. [BLANK_AUDIO]