Elizabeth Holmes and Nathan Fielder Keep Us Guessing

it's selling out everywhere is it because i was debating with i was debating with my wife yesterday i was like is this really a thing or is this like a new york times this is a thing this is a thing i have i have heard strangers on public transit talking about it friends with very little interest in yes uh movies mad at me for not taking them to the screen all right save it for the episode from the new york times i'm michael barbaro this is the daily on sunday every once in a while through a combination of subject matter and clever marketing tactics a movie becomes a phenomenon long before anyone can even see it usually it's a star-studded blockbuster think of oppenheimer or marty supreme what doesn't happen is that the movie becomes a phenomenon normally come to mind is a three-hour documentary but a few weeks ago it was the anticipation of a documentary kicked off with a coy trailer why would i deceive you there's no there's no reason for me to do that that touched off a cultural wildfire all right okay good chat and sent my colleagues film critic alissa wilkinson and critic at large jason cineman racing to a secure screening room in midtown manhattan in order to watch it what they experienced my head is still sort of spinning floored though i just feel like in these people he sort of met his match it is emotional it's romantic it's wildly intimate for a documentary you get to the end and you're like hang on what have i been watching this whole time but maybe the most intriguing part is that the movie becomes a phenomenon the most intriguing thing about the documentary and really the source of all this hullabaloo is who made it the comedian nathan fielder whose shows are known for blurring the line between reality and fiction and the documentary's subject theranos founder elizabeth holmes whose career blurred the lines between reality and fiction so today i speak to alissa and jason about the documentary and their story and their story and their story and their story and their about why this documentary called you can see everything is in their estimation a bonafide breakthrough it's sunday october 18th alissa jason welcome to the sunday daily great to be here great to be here again so i'm just going to start off by conceding that i have not seen the movie you can see everything that's going to be very much the center of this conversation and so i just want to get out of the way the ironclad pledge that we are all going to be making to each other and most importantly to the listener that we are not going to spoil this film we're not going to tell you everything that you can see in this do we agree you can't you can't hear everything that's right yeah i want an oral form alissa oh absolutely i've jason it will be hard but but i pledge i pledge we can also edit it if you falter but thank you for for signing the oath my first question is this worthy of all of the hype and excitement that it has engendered in this world it's a very tall bar is the first thing yeah uh because it's hard to remember something that has generated this much hype that said i'm gonna i'm gonna say unequivocally yes it does live up to the hype it's unlike anything i've seen before i write a documentary column for the paper every week so i think it's safe to say that i see more documentaries than most people and this is unusual and excellent i'm sort of expecting this film to and this sounds like hype but i believe it to lodge itself in one of those greatest documentary categories i think that this film is not a documentary it's not a documentary it's not a documentary it's not a documentary it's not just about what it's about but it's about documentary too and that i think is an extra level that really makes it stand out in the field of many many many documentaries that come out every year i think also there's all sorts of judges of what makes a movie worthwhile one of which is does it stick with you and do you keep thinking about it do your opinion of it change i had that feeling and i have not been able to get out of your head yes i've thought about it a lot i also think it will be a discourse object for much longer than the sort of the original you know when the reviews come out etc and part of that has to do with nathan fielder part of that has to do with the genre but a lot of it has to do with elizabeth holmes and and i think that on the elizabeth holmes of it all it's going to be i think polarizing it's got the juice it's got legs yes so i think a lot of people hearing this right now are going to be asking themselves why this story is being retold at all because it's been told so many times and it's been told so many times already but from what i gather you're both saying it's the combination of both elizabeth holmes her story and who nathan fielder is as a performer that makes this project unique and special and worth retelling yes right correct so elisa at heart with your no spoiler pledge still 100 intact what is this movie about so it is i guess ostensibly and to some degree about elizabeth holmes and elizabeth holmes if people don't remember um she dropped out of stanford and started this blood testing company called theranos the idea of which was that you would be able to run a huge battery of tests from a pinprick of blood right and she that was her breakthrough it's just like the tiniest little blood it was going to be a revolution in kind of all medical testing right you could just go down to the drugstore and get tested for everything all at once and you know this made her an incredibly popular figure for a while she was on the cover of magazines she became the world's youngest female self-made billionaire and theranos at some point was valued at 10 billion dollars but this all came crashing down because our colleague the investigative journalist john caru uncovered that these machines didn't work right famously so this all came crashing down and in 2022 she was sentenced to 11 years in prison for defrauding investors right and she kind of disappears well she she sort of disappears but she also becomes the subject of many a pop culture object so there's been um the bad blood podcast about her with carrie rue there also was a documentary called the inventor and oh there was a dropout and there was the dropout which is a a hulu mini series for which amanda seyfried who plays elizabeth holmes in it won an emmy for her performance so she has sort of stayed in memory as a character who exists but she herself kind of dropped out of sight and that is where nathan and his co-director lance oppenheim come in okay well before we get to this movie i think we have to describe the work of nathan fielder because he's not always been mainstream and we can even debate i hope in this conversation whether he is even mainstream now perhaps this but how would you describe what he's been up to up until now well i mean one thing that defines him is he's sort of boundary blurring and genre crossing so he's he's tricky to describe but he he's canadian grew up in vancouver he loved comedy and magic as a kid both of which show up in his literal physical magic show magic he was a child magician and one of his first i think you segment producer on the canadian version of american idol on the canadian idol and uh um was that a snotty american laugh that we all did it's just it's just it's it's a slightly abusing place to begin one's career in television when you end up in documentary yes yes and i think that that is a uh through line through his whole work is an interest in reality television and the the authenticity or contrivances of it and i also my i said i'm not a fan of the canadian version of american idol and i'm not a fan of the canadian version of american idol and i suspect he developed a lot of skills about editing from that show which show up in all his work including in the elizabeth holmes movie um and then he went to work for a show called this hour has 22 minutes which is sort of the canadian daily show i sat down with relationship psychology expert dr marianne fisher the reason that younger women tend to prefer older men are because and you're starting to see him uh use the tools of interviewing real people what about younger men and older women and the tools of documentary to make comedy i don't i don't know if there would be as many evolutionary benefits to that i just i i really like your shirt it's really pretty thanks and that leads him to the show that uh first brought him to some fame which was a comedy central show called nathan for you that premiered in 2013 right and we should be clear on the emphasis nathan for you right yes for you yes my name is nathan fielder and i graduated from one of canada's top business schools with really good grades the premise is that he is going to help struggling business increase their profits, get more attention, and typically they would have some small problem that he would have some outlandish, absurd solution for. You're going to guarantee eight-minute delivery or you get a free pizza? Yeah, I don't think so. Because why? You can't deliver in eight minutes, right? Of course not. I can't cook the pizza for eight minutes. That's the point. Yes. You'll always be late, but the free pizza they get will be an inch big. Based on the biography that you have supplied us with so far, he is wholly unqualified to be providing this counsel to the small businesses he encounters. Well, he does have a degree in business. So he actually wasn't lying about that. But no, he's probably not qualified to do this work. But he certainly carries himself with this authority. And I will say, he's often on a very crude level, effective in things like getting attention, creating a media circus, getting customers in, even though he's being absurd. Well, just talk about that, Alyssa, for a minute. The absurdity and what makes this show a breakthrough for Nathan Fielder. I think it's a breakthrough in part because he's on Comedy Central now and not just Canadian TV. But I think it also establishes, for us, a couple things that mark him, one of which is he commits really hard to the bit. And his solutions are so elaborate to problems that, you know, that these business owners are having. If you look at the gas rebate episode, which is the episode that Elizabeth Holmes saw that made her invite Nathan Fielder into her home. It was a segue, as we say. That means a lot coming from you, Michael. So I'm going to pause. And when we come back from the break, I want to hear about this gas rebate episode and how it sets this film into motion. We'll be right back. Jason, tell us about this episode of Nathan For You about a gas station rebate. So I went back, and looked at this episode from the first season of Nathan For You, the gas station episode, because it seemed to be the only piece of Nathan's work Elizabeth Holmes was familiar with. And in that episode, he's trying to help an owner of a gas station called Savant Gas get more customers. So I want you to charge $1.75 per gallon. You know what is utopia? Yeah. It's in your mind. You're not going to see $1.75 gasoline anymore. Only in the pictures. Well, listen. Listen to me. You give reasonable. No, I am being. I am reasonable. You didn't let me finish. Okay. After rebate. So he says, yeah, but here's the trick. We'll say to get this rebate, you have to climb a mountain. On the top of the mountain. Yeah, that's a good tricky way to make money. Most people don't want to do it, and you'll be fine, right? So then he has several people who do want to do it. To be honest, I didn't expect so many people to want to do the hike. And he goes up the mountain with these people. And I'm going to give the short version of this because this is the part that I think is remarkable. It's a complete fraud. I began to doubt that any of these eight determined cheapskates would drop out before reaching the peak of the mountain. You might think I'd be nervous that Savant Gas was going to lose money. But what I had told no one is that this was about more than just helping a gas station. I set out to create the world's first perfect rebate. A completely legal rebate that absolutely no one is going to get. Absolutely no one. They climb the whole mountain. When I began this thing, I never thought that I would meet three people. They waste their whole day. They have lives. Presumably they have jobs, right? With so much free time that they'd be willing to camp out on the top of a mountain with a complete stranger just to save $13 on gas. They were completely conned, like you might say some people involved with Theranos were completely conned, right? And then at the end of it. And those three people turned out to be three of the most fantastic people I've ever met. He says, yeah, but you know. We've all gained something even more valuable than a rebate. Friendship. Amen. It's really all about friendship. Right? Now, these people really did make a connection. They all seemed kind of lonely like Nathan. They really did. They went camping like you do when you're a kid. They really seemed to enjoy themselves. And when he says friendship, it seems ironic and he's making fun of it, but it also. I've come to believe that. His real point is to say that even if you get no rebate, you can make this human connection and emotionally that really is real and matters. And, you know, take it where you can get it. Right. And another way of saying this is that manipulation isn't inherently awful. Yeah. Yeah. So there's another famous scene in another episode. It's a very long story, but essentially Nathan casts a play and he asks an actress to run lines with him. And it really quickly devolves into this very weird moment. Basically, in a kind of quintessential Nathan Fielder moment, he stares and pauses and tells the actress to run her line. Look into my eyes. Which is, I love you. And say, I love you. I love you. Okay. Now, I'm not believing that at this point. So say it again. Then he says, let's try it again. I love you. And he says, try it again. Again. I love you. And he has it over and over and over. I love you. Again. I love you. Again. I love you. It creates this incredibly awkward moment to watch, but also awkward for them. Again. But then it segues into an actual genuine emotion. I love you. He actually sheds a tear. You have tears in your eyes. Oh, really? Yeah. Oh my God. Sorry. One of these moments that moves from awkward to funny to then something else. Right. And suddenly you're left with the question, which I've had in all the times I've watched Nathan Fielder content of what is really going on inside this person. Is it possible that what he just experienced was the love he has craved his whole life, this potentially broken man who somehow is reinventing documentary, or is everything he does a performance? Yes. Is there any variability? Is there any personal limitude available at all in anything he's doing? And is there a difference between those two things? I've been thinking of him more and more as kind of a performance artist asking questions about the nature of reality as it's depicted on screens because his work gets more bizarre from there. So we're moving a little bit through time now. Yeah. So my personal favorite of his shows is The Rehearsal, which premiered in 2022, was just kind of the best thing I've ever seen on TV and then had a second season last year. And the concept of this sort of springs from Nathan For You, which is he's going to help ordinary people who have some kind of difficult thing coming up, a difficult conversation with an estranged family member or wanting to ask somebody out. He's going to rehearse it with them, and he's going to, as much as possible, create the circumstances in which they would have that conversation. And so in the first episode, he's going to help a man who's going to be who needs to tell a friend this secret that he's been keeping from her. This is the trivia night episode. The trivia night, the first one. He asks this guy, where are you going to have this conversation? He said, oh, we're going to have it at the Alligator Lounge. And in order to rehearse this conversation, he doesn't just say, well, why don't we meet up somewhere and we'll talk about it? He actually builds a full-scale, exact replica of the bar in a warehouse. The clock now ticking. I invited Core into my secret warehouse. To begin his rehearsal. And what we're seeing here is him like playing with an HBO-sized budget, which explains a lot of this show. But he's taking that commitment to the bit and really extending it. Right, literally supersizing it. Quite supersizing it. I mean, this is a perfect replica. Every detail was meticulously replicated this time. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. This spice rack, it's the exact spices they have, the garlic, the basil. This chair is an exact. These are what? Wow. And even that's exactly the way it is. Down to like balloons that are half deflated sort of floating around in the background. When you show up on the actual night, it'll feel just like this. Yeah. I think there's also something else that starts to emerge, which is an interest in the ethics of what he's doing. You learn in this episode, before he creates the replica for the bar, he creates a replica for the apartment of the guy he's supposedly trying to help. Like, this conversation's going pretty well, right? Okay. I mean, do you think so? I don't know. So far, so good. So that's no accident. Everything that's happened so far today, I've rehearsed it dozens of times. These exact words in a replica of your home. And how does he get that replica? Remember a couple weeks ago when the gas company came by because of a leak in your building? Yeah. He's basically snuck into this guy's house. invaded his privacy took photos and with the help of a fake you i could practice every single permutation of this interaction and have a plan for it i mean do you think i should say something about the doors and then recreated his apartment and while he's doing rehearsals for him he's doing rehearsals for nathan fielder preparing to talk to this guy hi nathan hi hey nathan hi hi nathan oh this is door city over here huh and i'd adjust and then you kind of think every episode's gonna be that but then this show veers off in a wild direction that has to do with seemingly nathan's own kind of fears about the future about perhaps having a partner um becoming a father so he's kind of working out his own life issues while he's on this show working to help others figure out their own life issues life issues and it sounds like his work clearly touches on what is ethical what is moral in storytelling and i think to a certain degree his answer is sort of like whatever it takes yeah or or i well this is why i keep thinking of him you know as a performance artist it's like he keeps kind of poking in different directions with this i think we tend to see whatever we see on screen as if it just kind of got there and we believe what we're looking at and as someone who started in reality tv and talks about that in the second season of the rehearsal he um is showing you all the ugly bits and the seams and what really is required and he's activating the audience too he's he's pulling us out of our passivity and making us maybe we're going to be angry at him maybe we're going to be laughing but we're going to have a reaction to what we're watching in a way that if we just plop down and watch a random documentary on netflix we're going to be laughing but we're going to have a reaction to what we're going to be laughing about we might just kind of not think about all the filmmaking choices the ethical questions that went into making that he's asking us to be deeply deeply alert to all the dynamics of this because he's literally showing them exploring them testing them exposing them i think it's also i mean i'll say for myself and i'm a huge nathan fielder fan but there are times where i think especially early in his career when i do find in his humor cruel and unethical there are certainly some jokes in nathan for you that feel less a part of the tradition of documentary and more part of the tradition of the prank show yes um but what i think is what's interesting and admirable about nathan fielder is he confronts that critique the more deep into his career he gets i think in the rehearsal certainly season one he has a character this woman who wants to have a see if she can have a kid and she wants to rehearse it that eventually as it often does nathan fielder becomes more about him and him wanting to have a kid and rehearsing it than it is about her and in the end of the season he's like i don't know what to do with that process he gets a fake version of her this is her her name is angela you hear this critique in the voice of her fake angela why are you even here huh what's the real reason honestly okay well why are you here huh why are you doing this are you are you really trying to help me or am i the silly part that you talk about huh is my life the joke do you sit here with your friends at the end of the day laughing at me and then he defends himself kind of pathetically no you're not the one at all no one's the joke the situations are funny but interesting too but this can be like the opportunity to raise your kids in a person and it's a moment where it's i wouldn't call it funny but you you start to think oh he's after something bigger here and what's that bigger thing he's after i think he's earnestly examining the morality of what of not only what he's doing but of a certain kind of art and i don't think he lets himself off the hook i don't think he always succeeds do you want to feel something real yeah that's sad you never will but i i think he also believes there's a deep pleasure in being manipulated in being lied to that's i think in some ways the one of the hardest most transgressive ideas because no one likes to be lied to but you know i think all of art to some degree involves deception and surprise is a key part of any effective kind of art certainly comedy and part of that surprise it depends on sending you one way going another misdirection misdirection which to go to magic which i'm sure we'll talk more about uh because that's a that's a theme that we talked about he begins his life with and is very much a big theme of this new movie and i think it's a very challenging idea that we enjoy to be lied to we enjoy to be manipulated but i also think there's a deep truth in it we'll be right back okay so now that we are quite well versed in the ethically murky performance art slash comedy that nathan fielder has been purveying that is still somehow deeply vulnerable and human how does fielder take that style and turn it on to a well it's bizarre but with a little over 30 days before she goes to prison so i know you guys invited me to to stay here elizabeth holmes and her partner billy evans invite nathan fielder into her home does any part of you worry about me being here 24 7 i don't think so to live with them yes to live with them but what if i see something that makes you look bad and the setup reminds me of a reality she reminds me of you know we picked a few strangers to live in a house stop being polite start getting real except as opposed to seven you know real world cast members you have elizabeth holmes nathan fielder lance oppenheim and a ton of camera people and there's a third character who's her children and he is always present in the film as well and that becomes more and more important as we watch the movie would you say it's accurate to say he is a much less gifted performer than these other two yeah or i don't know if he would think that but i definitely think that you have a you you feel like you understand him better by the end well let's just linger on that for a moment what a curious decision this entire project is for both parties i mean this is a big big leap for him and it's a somewhat curious decision for her yes she's had two children which has delayed her going to prison in the first place right perhaps not an unrelated that's what a lot of people thought when she started having children was oh how how convenient is this but then that depends on your idea of who she is is she a master manipulator is she as some people say a pathological liar or is she a manipulator i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know is something else going on there and that is sort of the question of the film you really feel you did nothing wrong i did not so where did things get lost like how are you where you are right now i i wish i knew you know i i don't know i don't i don't feel like i understand that um it is a little obvious that this is in nathan fielder's wheelhouse very much because he's just willing to ask questions about human behavior that other filmmakers tend not to ask it's certainly not of their subject give me just an example of that so for instance there's a scene quite early on where nathan's just kind of hanging out in their kitchen and they're cooking and something occurs and it when you watch it it's it's sort of a normal interaction that people might have with one another but he zeroes in on it he really hones in on it the camera comes right in and we're seeing it so we know this is significant and he asks them why did you do that and then he keeps saying why did you do that and they have a very revealing interaction at that moment whereas most people might not have picked up on that it's just color in the background in most documentaries right and in most documentaries the whole point is to kind of let life occur and that's not at all what's happening here no i mean he's sort of a he's inserted himself into an interaction that would be normal life and he continually does that throughout the film without any apparent discomfort totally willing to sit in discomfort and we've seen that in all of his work discomfort is not an issue for him so that you know that's kind of fascinating and then also you know in many ways he's examining the question of as jason was saying of being deceived of the perhaps pleasure of being deceived it is a nathan fielder's warehouse that's completely true at the same time he's examining the question of being deceived and he's examining the question of being deceived at the same time he's not a legal expert he's not a scientific expert he's not uh he doesn't demonstrate in this film a mastery of the facts of the case and quite early on he says to her you picked me who's a comedian you're basically saying did you pick me because i'm not going to give you the hard-hitting journalistic questions she didn't pick a journalist uh what does she say in response if i can ask uh i mean she's a genius at saying nothing and you're left with this question is she the most naive human being in the world of the most cynical and my take coming out was there's nothing in between Well, so it seems pretty clear, and here I know we'll walk up to the edges of spoiler-dom, that these are two masters of, maybe manipulation isn't the right word, but they are very much in control of information and how it's going to be presented, when it's going to be presented. And so, I think it seems safe to say that this movie is two kings, queens of that particular realm going toe-to-toe. Completely. I think, look, you know, one thing Alyssa said about her having kids is really remarkable is how she uses the kids in this movie. How does she use the kids in the movie? They're almost like the armor for her. I mean, if I was to say, what's her magic trick? What's she doing, right? We all know these horrible things about her. She's a pariah, right? How is she going to resuscitate her reputation? Yeah. It's not easy, right? Well, taking the cynical view, she's going to show us her as a mother. The kids are in so many frames of this movie, right? They're all over the place. Show her as a daughter, as a partner, right? And so, I think what she's trying to do, or I think one might conclude she's trying to do, is humanize herself. And Nathan allows her to make that case. And my first reaction to this movie was that it put her in a much more sympathetic light than I would. How could it not? But then the more I thought about it, the less I was committed to that idea. And I think that that is, again, like a little bit of the point. I watched the film and went back and forth continually on what I was looking at, just constantly. And like Jason, I kind of walked out the door, had an idea of what I think I saw, and then I have been waffling on it for the last week. Is it real? Is it not real? What does real mean in this case? One of Nathan's tools is. How he asks questions. He's a great interviewer. And one of his tools is sitting in this discomfort, and when it's silent, people fill this void. And if you ask the same question over and over again, people sort of heighten, and they say things that, you know, maybe either are more funny or more true. And in the trailer, what you see is, you know, he's trying, he's looking at her, and he's saying, are you for real? You're being real right now. And she says. Always being real. Always for real. Yeah, she doesn't just say. This happens, I think, several times in the movie. Where he uncovers her saying something that seems on some level absurd. And they're juxtaposed with this giant absurdity at the core of her story, which is the fact that this machine didn't work. In fact, well, I guess I won't. No, you won't go there. I won't go there. I won't go there. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Well, let me ask you guys, by the end of the movie, who seems to have gotten the best of the other? So, you don't know. Exactly. Although, there is an answer the movie kind of gives you. Which we're not going to say. But whether or not you believe what it says is part of the whole experience of watching it, and very intentional. I think what makes this a great documentary is that it is living somewhere between a comedic documentary, a dramatic documentary, an investigative documentary. There's all these kinds of levels to it, and they're all happening at once. They call into question the project of documentary entirely. The idea of taking the real stuff of the world and turning it into entertainment, and what the creators of documentaries are really doing when they make a documentary in the first place. So, I want to end our exploration of Nathan Fielder by situating him and the kind of documentary work he's doing in a larger context. I mean, as we're talking about in this conversation, it's not really a very clear genre he's occupying. The kind of manipulative, self-aware, documentarian, inserting himself version of documentary doesn't necessarily have a name. But talk about the world he inhabits. Who else is in it? Who matters? So, Alyssa, where does he fit in? So, Nathan Fielder's work fits into. to a really long tradition in documentary of people who start going in one direction and end in a completely different place. So, first, I think we have to talk about Lance Oppenheim, who's Nathan's co-director on this. He is a documentarian who's made work like Spermworld. He made a series about Renaissance Faire. He also directed the fiction film Primetime that's out right now. And what is interesting when you watch a Lance Oppenheim documentary. is that he often frames protagonists, real people, as if they're characters in a movie. Occasionally, he will show you a character, and then he'll show you something else as if they're thinking about it. Which really walks up to the line of what is nonfiction. He really brings that style to this film. There's a ton of zooms. There's a ton of very close cropping. So, we're really looking close at these people's faces. But he also is very willing to train his camera on people who seem a bit strange. And to some extent, Nathan Fielder is doing exactly that thing. It's just that he's inserting into the situation and provoking the strange reaction. So, it makes perfect sense to me that the two of them working together would turn out this film. Okay, that's Lance Oppenheim. Who else? Well, I definitely think we have to discuss John Wilson. He made this HBO show, How To With John Wilson, which is little documentaries with a lot of B-roll about how to do tasks. But secretly, it's really about humanity. He just made this documentary, The History of Concrete. Do you ever think about concrete? No. No. Exploring basically like bureaucracy and infrastructure. And it's great. Now, will you sell this presentation to somebody? We're going to try to. Yeah. But he's sort of exploring the world through his filmmaking. It's kind of hard to get people excited about concrete I'm finding. Is it? Yeah. All of these guys are, you might say, heirs to or students of Ross McElwee's work, whose film, Sherman's March, is 40 years old and it was just restored and it did really well when it got released in theaters. Two years ago, I was about to begin shooting a documentary film on the lingering effects of Sherman's March on the South. It starts out with him saying that he's gotten a grant to follow Sherman's March. And I stopped off in New York from Boston, where I live, to stay for a few days with the woman I'd been seeing. But when I arrived, she told me she'd just decided to go back to her former boyfriend. But it turns out to be about all of his anxieties about his singleness. And we basically just meet all his ex-girlfriends on this journey. So instead of being an exploration of one of the most kind of heinous acts of military conquest in American history, it becomes an exploration of the director's personal life. Yeah. You learn almost nothing about Sherman's March and it was never the point in the first place. I want to add just one other idea. Which is that in a movie like Sherman's March, it's a documentary that presents itself to be about the world, about this important historical event. And it ends up being about somebody's navel, right? And there's an aspect of memoir to a lot of these filmmakers. It's about something, but it's really about a portrait of themselves. What Nathan Fielder, I think, has done, and he's not the only one, but maybe no one has done this better, is he's taken this idea of making something. He's taken this idea of making something about the world, which then refracts back into your navel and then keeps pushing back out through your navel, back out to the world. So if you look at his career, he started doing these prank shows. And then with the rehearsal, he started to go look at being a father. And now he is looking at Elizabeth Holmes, one of the most notorious figures of our time. And it's an incredibly difficult thing to tell this story through. And I think this is where the movie might be divisive, is how much does he get out of his own navel? How much do we learn about Elizabeth Holmes at the end of the day? If it's also as much about him. Correct. Correct. And I think that once people see the movie, that will be a really interesting argument. What's interesting to me about what Nathan Village is up to, and I found this in John Wilson's work too, is that there's just a lot of authenticity to the documentary and putting themselves so forcefully in the center of things. When you log on to the streaming services these days and you watch a documentary that you know Taylor Swift has authorized and told which cuts can be in and which can't be, you sort of know you're being manipulated. The authenticity is pretty limited. But there's a lot of kind of incidental revelations that seem to come your way in the work of someone like Nathan Fielder. And maybe I'm overstating that, but it feels like there's a kind of a deeper, more unintended truth that arrives. I also think that you're onto something, which is that the audience is very cynical about, and they should be, about documentaries right now. That so many of them are paid commercials. And what I see Nathan Fielder doing in this movie, I was thinking about this. It reminds me of what Penn and Teller did to magic. Penn and Teller came along and they said, all magic is bunk. All magic is fake. That's how they start their show. And then they take you behind the scenes of how this trick is actually. done. Right. And then they trick fool you. And it turns out that the authenticity is the misdirection, exposing the fraud, exposing the fake. That's the trick. And I think what he, the reason he does that is precisely because people are so understandably cynical about these documentary format and they already begin, you know, these are people right now, they've grown up on reality television. They've grown up on these contrivances. They've grown up on not believing the editing. And so I think you have to, I think what Nathan Fielder believes is you've got to do something extra to earn that authenticity. So that you can then manipulate. Exactly. Yes. Yes. Exactly. I agree. Is it fair to say that this film and what Fielder has become is advancing the form, this form that I know you have spent so much of your career thinking about and caring about? I think that judging from the response, to this film, people's excitement for it, the sort of internet meltdown when the trailer came out, I think it's fair to say that it's putting the form in front of people who might not otherwise flock to a more esoteric documentary. It's, and it's entertaining and people are going to be talking about it. I think we're going to be talking about it for a long time. So in that way, I think that it's a huge jump for the form. And I'm really excited about that myself. Yes. Yes. No, I think you see a huge, a huge expansion of the ambition of this form that not just documentary, this particular kind of documentary, but also this specific kind of comedy, which uses the real world and documentary that he, as he's shown over and over again, this kind of comedy can reveal oneself. It can reveal the world. It can be not just funny, but it can be emotional. It can be tender. It can be, it can portray people in a complex way that you can't in a piece of journalism. This slightly borderline unethical prank humor can actually mature into something that is really challenging and a complex work of art. Well, Alyssa and Jason, thank you very much. Thank you for honoring the pledge. Of course. We kept our word and thank you for your time. Thank you. If you are not yet a Times subscriber, we have some news for you. You can enjoy full access to the Times without a paywall for 30 days. All you have to do is download the New York Times app to get your first month completely free. And if you're already a Times subscriber, thank you. This episode was produced. This episode was produced by Lena Richards with help from Alex Barron. It was edited by Wendy Doerr. It contains music from Dan Powell and Marion Lozano. Has production assistance from Dahlia Haddad and was engineered by Rowan Numisto. That's it for The Daily on Sunday. I'm Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow. I'm Michael Barbaro.