Elimination Game Panic Meter With Annie Costabile

[MUSIC] Welcome to TheRingerWNBA Show. I'm Serious Sohe. I am joined today by the go, the go, Annie Constable of the Athletic. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Game, all the game ones of the first round have been played. A couple surprising results, and then a lot of chalky stuff happened too, but I'm very excited for today because the first round, as you know, Annie, is an absolute speed run because it's three games. It's a 1-1-1 format, and the second that you lose game one, it means that you're on the brink of elimination. So we're going to talk about the teams that we really like, what we like, what we liked, and what they saw, but we're also. We're going to be playing with the panic meter a little bit. Love it. I like that look in your face. Oh, trauma. Is it trauma? Is it trauma? Is it trauma? If you're a Liberty fan, I'm talking, we're talking to Stefan before, and he's like really excited about everything, but he's also like, I watched this movie last year as well. But you, I know, I know you're watching at home, but you're a, you're a New York, not a New York native, you're a New York transplant, you're a Bushwick transplant, which is about as New York as it gets. Bushwick Badi. Bushwick Badi. Do people say Badi, is that a thing? I don't know. Don't ask me. Do not know. But what did you think of the Liberty just putting the absolute breaks on the links? I'm still kind of grappling with whether or not this was a great game by the Liberty or a bad game by the links, because we just never saw the links find any type of offensive rhythm. And okay, that in part is because the Liberty didn't give them an opportunity to, but I also think part of that is the very first reality of the postseason and the pressure that comes with it. And the fact that they're being led by a rookie point guard who is just brand new to the pressures of the postseason. And we could talk all day long about how pressure is a privilege and players don't feel pressure in these moments. There was like a mic'd up moment on ESC and we hear Olivia like say out loud, I'm nervous. And that's not a bad thing. I don't want anybody to think I'm saying that. No Olivia is just a very nice person. I've been in soda. Like I watched this game in person. I think one of the things that stands out so much about the Liberty when you see them in real life is just how huge they are. Jazz. Jazz. Layout. Layout. Layout. Layout. Layout. Layout. Layout. Layout. Layout. You can see it on the screen. Layout on the screen even looks like if you just like took a regular person and you hit the zoom at like a hundred and twenty five percent. Or like if you took a regular person and like just stretch them out a little bit, you know, like stewie. Like stewie. I feel like when I'm standing next to Layout, like I'm similar in stature, but then it's like she stands up or like lengthens her arms and you're like novice. She's living in your real life. I've been standing this whole time and she's been sitting. So I think Olivia obviously struggled with this size, but I've spent some time with Olivia this week. And I think she's just very honest as a human being. She's very self-aware. And I think of a long run that's going to do her a lot of good. I think right now she is in a situation where her life in basketball has been moving at a breakneck pace. And she just won rookie of the year. And it's not like she's going to be able to sit back and enjoy being the rookie of the year because you look for most rookies making the first round. Great. Awesome. That is like a victory lap, right? Right. She's expected to lead this team to potentially a championship. So she's going to have to go back and look at honestly, I think a lot of this tape is going to show her like the Liberty Park the bus on here. I think I was pretty surprised at and I think they were surprised that Christa Marco didn't go and decide that they were going to trap her a lot like they did in the last matchup because I think she would have been prepared for that. Like she's a great reading react player. She's great at watching the tape. But I thought it was kind of it was a really smart move and all this Christa Marco is a huge winner in all of this. He knows a thing. He knows what he's doing. Short and long term, I think this this the series might be huge for Christa Marco. But they kind of just were like, okay, we'll have Pauline Assier who I think I think did a great job on Olivia. It was a huge one. It was like a low key matchup problem on both ends. And then Leo Febitch guarding her and they dropped back and pick and roll and they had John Paul Jones or Hanju just waiting at the rim for her. And Olivia, I think when she looks back at the tape, she's going to see that there are a lot of mid-range shumpers that were available. That were missed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think the other thing too was the Fisa Collier's aggressiveness was just MIA. Like I don't think she which, honestly, I wondered what it felt like watching in person because I think you missed things when you're watching from home. But that was something that stood out to me too was just she she did not seem or look like her her normal self out there. So I'm glad you asked. The first half we had like the my my seats I had like the the view of like facing the Minnesota links as they're running their offense, right? And the Fisa Collier who share or leave said after the game, we do need her to be more assertive. I'm sitting next to Britt Robson of the mid post whose who's fantastic and he's talking like, why are you making it so difficult on yourself? Like these extra pump fakes like just go up. Oh my god. There was what what was the one and like the fourth quarter and and she got her. That was the one. That was the one. What are we doing? I was like, what are we actually doing? That definitely caused a bit of a crash out for sure. I think that so I'm watching them run their offense, right? And I think that there's kind of like a lack of assertiveness from everybody, but you feel it with feed because she is your leader. She's going to it's going to be her, right? Ultimately that that like, especially, you know, if it's a living miles, it's her first playoff game. She's having this is a worst game I've seen her play in my life. Yeah, you know, you got to like I think I saw came back to this in the third quarter, but one of these vets like they've just got to take some of the pressure off of her. And I was I think if you're a fan, you're hoping it's fee, but so I'm watching and like these are the subtle things that you just miss on the screen. But like, you know, you just have like Olivia call over for a screen from fee, fee doesn't go to set the screen for Olivia. She's ends up setting like a back a down screen for somebody else to go set the screen for Olivia. Just subtle things like that. Even in Olivia had some of these moments too where she like you could tell that she wanted to ball and came back's hands as well. And it felt like there was almost just a sort of like, no, you got it. You got it sort of thing. Which I think this links offense at its worst like, you know, at its best, it's this amazing egalitarian feed, you know, framework where everybody gets to eat, but I think we kind of saw it at its worst. And let's talk a little like I want to talk a little bit more about everything I went wrong for Minnesota, but I think that we would be idiots if we didn't talk about Brianna Stewart right now. In fact, the Brianna Stewart, did she have a big game? I'm like, should we really talk about her? No, I mean, she, she's insane. And this entire season is a testament to her greatness. The entire year she's put the New York Liberty on her back. And I think all the talk about how do we get taken for granted? I don't really want to anymore. Subscribe to that. But no, we talk about her on this podcast. Yeah, who's taken her for granted? Because I think what happens is, and I say this a lot, but like she's playing alongside another, you know, historic player in Asia, Wilson. And what happens is because you are existing in the same window as Asia, who is, then you look, look at what, on the same night, what Asia goes and does. It just naturally creates this dynamic, where yes, Asia gets a lot more of the conversation. Like it's, it just naturally goes to her. But for staffing said, Stewie is doing what she always does. This is, this is like, this is nothing for her. I think what really stands out to me is how she is, was able to pick everybody up around her and get this performance out of everybody else around her. Because we haven't seen this, this collective dominance other than a few spurts here and there. And like the commissioners cup, yes, the Marco talked about like that's what we're going to need. We're going to need everybody playing that way. And so that I was not shocked by Stewie's performance. at all, I was pleasantly surprised by how it catered to the success of everybody around her. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the 34 points, 11 for 18, the six assists, I think really gets at it, but even beyond the assists, I think one thing that's so difficult, and this goes for Asia too, is when you can face up and hit a mid-range jumper from anywhere on the core and you're bigger than everybody else, it's really hard to double you. Like, it's just really hard, and I think that the foul trouble was obviously an issue which we can get into, but I think once the foul trouble kicked in, then the link started to bring doubles in order to protect the Fisa Collier who had, I think, four fouls in the third quarter. Natasha Howard had four fouls as well. There was a point where Nia Brody had four fouls as well, I think she finished with four, but you know, they're playing with massive foul trouble. Look, Stu is a free throw merchant. She's S-G-A-W-N-B-A, that is partially what she's going to do. One thing that I-- But she's also struggled from the free throw line this year too, like she's not, she has not been a perfect free throw shooter, so sorry, sorry, sorry, look at me throwing shade at Stuie. My bad. This is the level of perfection that we expect from players like her, right? But I think on the level of, she's kind of re-apexing if I can borrow a phrase from the pod father here, like I think that she is kind of at this place now where we, to your points were forgotten about her and, or at least taken her for granted. And now she's had this season where even in Fiba, she has had to carry everybody else. She's had to do all the things that make her special, like all the versatility that is so important to what makes her a great player has been on display because both the liberty and Fiba have absolutely needed it from her. And then it just sprays out, so I'm sitting next to your girl, Maddie Kenney. And you know, we're just talking in the first quarter and she's like, you know, they really need to get Leo Fibich going. I was like, Tuesday, like I mean, she just hasn't shot well all season. Like I don't know if we really need to get Leo Fibich going. So every time Leo-- That's it. Fibits are three. They already tell me. They already tell me, dude. I can't talk about it through everybody. Yeah, I just want everybody to know anybody that knows Maddie, anybody that knows me, anybody that knows you-- anybody that's listening. What you say to Maddie, you say to me, what you say to me, you say to Maddie, it's like that meme. We are Sympathico. Okay. Okay. It was my dog. That was my girl. Yeah. She also told me to tell you since I was your plan B, she wants to be your plan D and she's offended that you didn't ask her to come on. Well, Sean tells us. Yeah. I have any on track. Okay. I have any on track. Okay. I can take the feedback. I would love to have Maddie on the pod. But Leo hits four threes. Yeah. Maddie looks at me every single time. Yeah. She hits three. But this was simultaneously, like I think a good game for the New York role players outside of Sabrina. Like, Sabrina is not role player, but like Sabrina, you ask you and John Quill Jones. Honestly, you actually didn't really have the games that you thought that they would have to have in order to succeed. Oh, go ahead. Yeah. But no, I think that's what makes this Liberty team so scary when they are playing in rhythm like this because to have a, to dominate in this way without JJ, without Sabrina having a night like you'd expect from them is, is really scary if you're the links. And Leo, like we, we saw this obviously from her playing in FIBA. We've seen it from her throughout the season, but she goes through that injury. She's gone for a month. She comes back. She has a big game against the Indiana FIBA. Like, this is what she can do. She just hasn't done it consistently this year. So I, I think Leo being the X factor, I mean, like, I don't want to steal Maddie's shine, but I was saying that for weeks going into the playoffs. Well, it seems like you guys start thinking about the same brain, yes. We will make sure to keep copious notes of all of that and I can, we can do the MVP for New York Liberty reporters at the end of the season. Oh, my God. It's Maddie. She's done a great job. Yeah. She's great. So here's the thing though. Yeah. Here's another reason that Chris Demarroco is a sneaky winner in all of this. Sabrina going into the third quarter or going into the fourth quarter, not having a good game. I think the big question for everybody is, what are they going to do? Are they going to venture? And if they venture, that obviously, you know, creates a downstream conversation and narrative that you just probably don't want to have going like a one of the playoffs. Chris Demarroco doesn't start her start of the fourth quarter, which is completely fine. That's like not something you expect always as a, as a starter anyways. And in that time, with Reno Hannes and Pauline Astey, who are the best by the numbers, like point guard duo when they played together. They go on this incredible tear. They're up like 16 points by the time Sabrina gets into the game. There's absolutely zero risk to Demarroco doing it. She hits a three pointer off the dribble at the end of the clock, gets to Aura Farm. Everybody's happy. They go home with a win. And Chris Demarroco doesn't have to answer one of the big questions that eventually this team is going to have to answer if Sabrina continues to struggle. And then with JJ, it's just like man, like, Han just stepped up. So it didn't, like those pertinent questions didn't matter because of role players really, really stepped up, which does bring me to panic meter. And I wonder if we'll feel differently about this, and the question is really like for the Minnesota links, they are going back home, I mean, sorry, they are going on the road. They are the only team that lost a home game. And I think that puts you in a very dangerous situation when it's a three game series. They are o and three when they've lost game one of a three game series. And that is even with the share of it all. There are two and five in the last seven games. All start with how I feel about it, like, my panic meter is kind of only at a medium. A, because I think Minnesota is just better at home. I also think this was a perfect storm of everything that could have gone poorly for the links. And if the Liberty were going to steal a game, it would have to be this game. There was the foul trouble. There was the fact that this was Olivia Miles first ever playoff game. Starting the game, Caleb Grive really wasn't shooting well. And the team as as a whole outside of Nia Brody, wasn't really shooting well. And sit like this has always been a team that's relied a lot on the three pointer. Three point variance is really important for them, but they've become even more three point dependent since fees return. And I do wonder if this was just one of those games where like, it was lab design for the Liberty to win. What do you mean lab designed just all those factors that went into it, right? Like the foul trouble, tough shooting the Olivia's first playoff game, fees not assertive. Like Courtney really does a bad game, like it's just kind of like all these things kind of pile up. Like you can, great teams can withstand a couple of those things happening in a game, but when all of them happen in one game, it's kind of tough. I keep going back and forth on the panic meter because logically, right, you've got to think this is a Cheryl Reeve coach team. There's no way they're going to drop game two. Nefisa's been there, came acts been there, Courtney Williams, like there, this is a team that's been in tough situations. The only one that you really wonder about is Olivia and even she, you think going into game two is, is going to look like a different player. That being said, the Liberty did this last year, they, they lost at home. I got rocked at home against the Mercury and then obviously lose in the first round ultimately. And again, I think we're stewies at mentally where this team is at mentally, that's going to be another hurdle that the links are going to face in game two coming into the audience. Because they already prepared for like, they felt the pain of this. Yeah. It's really at this point now, to me, I was thinking the series was going to go links, Liberty links, like go through games and the Liberty we're going to, we're going to take game two at home. And so the fact that they got game one, I think they very easily could, not easily, that's dismissive. But I think they, they could sweep this now because of, again, the bad days and how they played the, the links all season and also the other thing that's that's given me pause about this links team is just how poor their defense has looked in the second half of the season. But especially the last couple of weeks of the regular season. And it's just like something's off all the way around. And so I, I'm going to keep my panic at a medium. I'm not going to go extra hard here because again, it's a Cheryl Reed coach team, but considering all the factors of last year and how this team looked in game one in terms of the Liberty, it's going to be tough. Yeah. that my panic set of medium. I think the one thing if the links lose this series that they are going to have to go back to the drawing board and think about his size because we can have all the conversations in the world about the refereeing but and the small market and Kathy's dress and I am sympathetic to all those things. At the same time this happened to them in the 2024 finals because they were outmatched on a size level and now they are even more outmatched because with Olivia Miles and Courtney Williams they start two coin cards and the New York Liberty don't just have size up front they have size at all five positions so that works them and then they're also undersized in their front court with the FISA Collier being probably around 80% and 80% of New FISA Collier is better than you know probably all but like three or four WNBA players so this is not you know disrespect to her but at the same time it's it's hard to like be as physical as assertive as you want to be especially when you have to like play up to somebody else's size and level when they are prepared for you so it's just that part of it makes it a tough match up for them. I would frankly love to see more Maya called Will I thought she was fantastic and you know Cheryl's experimented with that three big lineup with Brody playing with Howard and the FISA Collier if there ever was a time if there ever was a series to try it out in the playoffs if there ever was a as a game it's probably game two especially after the way that Mia played in game one. My hesitation there is like how much experimenting do you want to be doing at this stage in the game you know what I'm saying? I can throw the kitchen sink at it they are one in three against the Liberty playing the way that they play this season. You can't like we're we'll talk about this with the fever this is put up or shut up time. This is it you can't like come on like you can't it's it's really not the time to leave anything in your arsenal you got to empty the clip yeah yeah yeah you're emptying the notebook you're like everything every play everything you've ever thought about throwing at this new earth Liberty team you so well in game two and you just see what the chip side. Yeah I think game two is going to be as is I'm going to take the links in game two I think this is going back to Minnesota. So what the hell do I know? Well with me and you very like truly know very little I've been wrong on like all of my predictions so I'm yeah my critics don't ever use me for getting advice use me for entertain. Yeah yeah I'm literally yeah my predictions I are just purely entertainment purposes. Yeah well let's start let's let's talk about the next game the fever played the Hases the Hases blew them out 102 85 there were two MVP's in this game the first one was Holly Row executing a perfect interview with Asia Wilson while the Gruman Gruman group just like walked by by the screen multiple times that would have sent like just absolute shivers down my spine and then obviously the second interview. Wait because you would have been scared or you could you see that would you see that you just see the way that they like show up on the screen look I'm not naturally scared of like the Blue Man group when somebody painted an all blue just like shows up out of there I say the blue yeah I'm gonna be startled okay I will say I was also I I was startled I was startled twice this week by an anime objects one of them was going to a bar of their own in Minneapolis which is so cool and the first thing that greet you is a life-sized cardboard cutout of Billie Jean King and I was like oh my gosh and then yesterday going to the gym there was like a half body statue in my hotel room that also terrified the living crap out of me so you know what that's a good question that's a good question maybe I'm more easily startled than yeah jumpy see it I'm a little jumpy I can be a little jumpy yeah absolutely yeah um so asia Wilson was incredible in this game yeah um let me just pull up her stat line real quick okay 38 points 15 of 19 shooting 16 they bounce four blocks two steals game high plus 29 game high in a lot of those categories points rebounds and blocks um I was tracking her looks a little bit uh just the ways in which you can just beat you in every every possible way at this point is yeah incredible like the mid-range pick and roll the face up jumper the poke like the driving off of a curl and just using her speed like the turnaround post ups like we all know this about asia Wilson I think it's just one thing stood out to me what she said it was what she said after the game she was asked like I think it was by cali fin like you know did you feel yourself going into a flow state and you know it's terrifying it just says no it's like no this did not feel like an out of body experience this is what she said I kind of do because the idiot a fever defense is so bad like she said this did not feel like an audit out of body experience this was what happened because we did what we were supposed to do and executed defensively then she goes into like tom Brady mode and then she's like I think we just showed up to work and that's what we need to do moving forward is showing up for each other and showing up to work do your job in the end of fever what are we doing sorry go ahead no I was just I mean I don't know how you could have 43 she finished with 38 and not feel like you were in a flow state and do it as efficiently as she did and not feel like you were in a flow state but hey again to your point I think four states are different for different people like how do you think I know she looks like she was in a flow state she did she did again listen who am I who am I to speak for asia Wilson the asia Wilson four times soon to be five times MVP asia Wilson I certainly am not going to do it I'm just saying uh don't know if I buy you know what that's the end yeah it's good and the end of fever I think my my big thought here was like they need more from kk they need more obviously from alia alia is one of the best at defending asian it's not even in a sense of like you really can stop asia but you slow her down and there was just none of that and I think what what stood out to me again for this india and a fever team to be successful they have to get their role players more involved they have to have more from players like lexie hole again mccayla tymson like and they just were not they were not getting any of that and so you can't because when you look at what alia kelsey and Caitlin did I mean kelsey had a super quiet night 12 points um it just was not not a typical night for her but you're not gonna be you're not going to be at anybody in the playoffs playing like that so beyond just their defense like their production from again role players like lexie and uh it just it wasn't where it needed to be look um I hear that I thought frankly I thought alia was probably the best out of the big three however I don't know that you can expect that from this team at this point and one of the things that we talked about a little bit off off off the air was it's sort of difference between steff white and becky hamman and how they get how one of them gets the best out of their big three lexie hole five points mccayla tymson two points here's the thing we've come to expect that out of both of those players this season if your steff white at a certain point this season you either needed to start bringing lexie hull off of the bench or you needed to find a concerted way to get her going so that she could feel confident lexie hull is a confidence player feel confident again and you know be that 40 percent mid uh three point shooter be that 50 percent corner three point shooter that we know that you know she has in her neither of those two things happened um sofi cunningham was pro and riven johnson were the two best players off of the bench for them but ultimately the india february going to go as far as their big three take some kateland has 15 points on 17 shots she has 10 assists and six turnovers she's a mighty 18 that's not really at this point like an acceptable katelyn clerk performance kelsi michael 12 points on 16 shots that's not an acceptable kelsi michael performance and it's not all on them you know i think like one thing that really stood out in this game was just a difference between how becky hamin and steff white approached the offense like first play of the game everybody knows that katelyn clerk is going to be guarding steff talbot in this series at the fever going to try to hide her or hide kelsi michael on steff talbot first play of the game steff talbot sets a screen for the best player in the world asia wilson and they said another screen and then they said another screen eventually it's jackie young they are going to do the same thing over and over again in order to put their players whether it's jackie young or or or asia wilson in an advantageous position to isolate and then create advantages out of that and look it's different when you have asia wilson on your side but becky is ultimately better at maximizing her superstars and that's what this series is about these are two big threes with really thin benches like i think frankly i think the the entire problem with the Indian offense is the idea of getting KK Timson going. Or at this point, with the season that she's getting - I don't think that it's, I don't, I don't think it's that you have to get KK going. But it's like the, the couple bunnies that she had that she missed, which again, she's like shooting over Asia Wilson. So it's like, there's so many factors like I'm like, - I'm not trying to minima. - Yeah, for sure, but it's like, if you look at games where the, even against the Aces where the fever have been successful, it's not that she's scoring in double figures, but it's that these little, these little errors are not being made. And that's the margin for error is so is nothing. You cannot, there's no room for error against the Aces. And that's more so what I mean when it's like, you have to get better from them. Like you can't, you know, you need more from them. And so I think that's more so what it is when you think about adjustments need to be made is like, they gave up 28 points off a turnovers. This is a team, like, this is a team that thrives in transition, what transition? They didn't even have an opportunity to thrive in transition when you're playing that way. So I think that's more what I mean is like, you can't, the margin for error is so tiny. And I definitely agree with that, yeah. Especially with the transition and the defense, which we'll definitely talk about in a second. I just think that with, with Steph White, like, I'm watching Becky Hammond, just like, take Asia Wilson and users like his hammer over and over again. And then with the fever, it's like, it's like this Rube Goldberg machine where everything has to be so complicated and complex. And if one piece of it doesn't work, the entire offense isn't going to work. And look, that's awesome if you're the Liberty. And Leonie Fiebage can hit four threes. And Marine and Pauline and Sabrina and Stewie, they're all high level offensive threads and John Kwell and you have to see which one of them is really the one that has the advantages. It's great when you're the Minnesota links and you start five scoring threats. Yeah, then you want the ball popping around. Fever don't have that, nor do they really have like players that like know how to make the ball go back to their best players as well. Because you can't just turn every role player into like a dream on green level passer. Like, it also just puts them in situations that they're not necessarily prepared for because like the best passers on this team are Caitlin Clark and Alia Boston and Kelsey Mitchell. And then maybe down the line when they Raven Johnson, but certainly not right now. Even with the game that she had, like that's still an issue for her. So like that's where the ball needs to be ultimately for me. Like that's and that's been the problem with their offense for me all season. I definitely want to talk about their defense. But at the same time, I feel like they are so dependent on transition and their and their and their transition offense because their half-core offense doesn't make sense. And with the talent that they have and the chemistry that that talent should have and that we've seen them have in the past, like that to me is just a little bit unacceptable. But there is the other side of the deep, like so the defense aspect of it. Like I was thinking about like how bad can a bad defensive team be to win a title. So I went back and looked and in 29 seasons of the WNBA so far, the number one defense is one of the title nine times. The number two and three defense have won the title six times. That means eight remaining teams. Only three title winning teams have had an average defense at all. One of them being the 2025 aces, who were the number two defense in the last 15 games the season last year, they're a bit of an outlier, they don't really count. - Yeah, Indiana is 10. Can I have that? Just can't have that. - Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna say something that's probably gonna get clipped and everyone's gonna hate me for it, but I don't think anyone's under the assumption that this defense is going to give way to a championship. And I think if you are you're a fan, which is beautiful, fans should have the utmost confidence in their team, but the fever did themselves no favors playing as poorly as they did on offense, and having to defend in transitional night. Like they already are working from behind and then they play like that on the offensive end and they just, it only made matters worse. So I, yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone, at least I'm not under the assumption that this defense is gonna lead to a championship. - No, but like, look, they have a defensive coach, right? And that's, that's what they have defensive players. Like, do they have players keeping? - Not filling what the expectations are. - That's where it becomes in Amber Cox and Kelly Croskov and the fever front office look in the mirror moment. They've had some wins. I think KK Timson is probably their biggest win, but I think the Lexi Hall contract, the Mobilings contract, we'll see what happens. With Sophie, Raven Johnson, when you look at Medina O'Cott is doing in the playoffs and how badly the fever can use another big, that's not looking like a great pick right now either. I think it's, I think there's a lot of things that they can look back at and realize that this team wasn't really built to be successful. At the same time, if they do, and like, you know, you're bringing up the fans, right? One of the things that I think the fans want is a more offensive minded coach. And the thing that I would caution to the fans is that based on the stats that I just laid out, what you want then is a philosophy that breaks the mold. If you're asking for that type of philosophical change, you're asking for a team that you think can then break the mold of WNBA history in terms of actually being offense first and not focusing that much on their defense. And I think, Hey, if that's what you're asking for, I kind of get it, but I also think that like, sometimes being at the forefront of a revolution means being the first person to get your head chopped off. Maybe five years from now, this works, but right now, for sure, these defensive teams are right. But also for that to work, you have to execute to perfection offensively, like they're not, that they didn't do that. So again, to break that mold, like you can't just have an explosive offense. You just can't have one of the best offenses in the league. You have to execute to perfection. You have to play beautiful basketball. And my God, that was ugly. Yeah, you ultimately have to play defense in order to play that kind of basketball. So I think it's like, it's going to be a complicated offseason for if they lose for the fever. Like I think the general thought is that, you know, step way is safe. I think the general thought is that Amber Cox is safe. But I also think, I also wonder if they should be. And I have a lot of admiration for like, what step way has been through this season? And I think that she's a great coach. I just don't, I just wonder if she's a little mismatched for what this team should be trying to be. And I also wonder, like for the, if you're the fever, if you're the fever front office, if you're the fever ownership, I wonder, it's like, I wonder how hard it is to actually get a sense of clarity. And to be able to see things clearly, which is given like the firestorm of discourse that is constantly surrounding this team, right? Like you can't fire Steph White because people are mean to her, but you can't not fire her because people are mean to her too. You know what I mean? - Yeah. I mean, obviously we were having this conversation off air and it's not like we even got into anything too particular that the listeners can't know. But it's like, this is exactly what we were saying is, yeah, you can't, the discord can't influence the decision. But there is a question of how much, or how clearly you can see through the fog within that organization. What I will say is going back to the hiring of Steph White, she was exactly who they wanted and they went after her hard. And I don't know that anything that's happened in her first two years since being there is enough to pull the plug yet. And so I mean, listen, we'll see what happens, but again, I think that this is more of a roster construction issue as well. And that's something that needs to be confronted in the off season. - Yeah, I think you ultimately probably do end up kicking the can down the road to next season. And they're also seeing like there's some things that Steph White has done, like as far as like, kind of relaxing the defensive concepts at a certain point of the season where I think that they were doing a lot better when there was more of like a harm reduction model of like we're not gonna try to stop everything. Like if you beat us in certain ways, that's fine. But we get enough stops to like just run the ball down and like, you know, be a little bit more of an offense for offense first team. like then, yeah. the player personal has to get better. Yeah. Both Kelsey Mitchell would just have to be better on the defensive end. But you also can't have a back court that is offense-focused and then have mobilings be your line of defense as well, that's that is-- Right. That is a front office issue. Panic meter, where you at? I'm very panicked. I had the fever winning in three, and also this goes back to the regular season, and they did well against the Aces during the regular season. I thought this was going three games. I'm like, cool. If it goes through games based on how they played against them during the regular season, like, I'm picking the fever. Also, I'm kind of like the contrarian. I want to like piss people off a little bit with my takes sometimes, you know? It's like, what's the harm in making this election, other than getting some black on social media, which love it, sign me up. But no, my panic meter is at a red. It's like wearing, I think, this good. It's pretty high for me, it's like, yeah. Yeah, it's pretty high for me. It's like it's kind of like Diana Tarasi punching wall levels of concern here, punching a door level of concern here. Like, I'm not. Like, Vic Schaefer's jacket is off. Like, we're not. We're not feeling good. Show please jacket off. You know what, though, like, here's a weird-- here's a one thing. All the sort of flaws that we talk about with the fever, also what make them one of the most high variance, and like up and down combustible explosive teams that we have seen. And that also, like, they get into positive feedback loops or negative feedback loops. So it also does lend itself to the idea that if they just defend a little bit better, that means their offense is going to be a lot better. And then if their offense is a lot better, then we'll be taking the ball out of the basket and being able to defend in half-coror. Like, that team, more than any other team, exists on a feedback loop. I think that's part of the reason that I think Fiba hurt them. I think they're just out of a rhythm. Like, this is a rhythm team. They kind of need time to figure out how to flow together. So that's, yeah, that's the one thing. I think that, like, they're going back home, which obviously helps. And ultimately, if, like, one or two things go right for the fever, they're the type of team where, like, those one or two things can really, really build on each other. So I would not be surprised if it went back to Vegas for game three. But ultimately, like, it's just looking like Vegas is a much better team overall. I'm going to go Vegas in three for this one. All right, let's talk. Let's talk a little dream mystics. This was an interesting one. I thought this was going to be the most interesting series of the first round. And it looked like it was going to be in the first half. And then another game, another blowout. Like, I was shocked by the margin of victory in these games at average over 18 point differential. And the first four, like, that's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, especially just given how much, like, we thought that this first round was going to be competitive. Granted, it's going to be like a lot of this is like home games home game, right? Other than the links, the mystics at first half were very competitive with the dream. They looked awesome. And then Dewanna Bonner happens. Rhyme Howard happens. So good. No, I was just going to say, I think this is a perfect example of experience being a factor. Like, the mystics came into the playoffs with 32 games of experience, playoff experience under, like, across the board. And Dewanna Bonner has almost 100 games in the postseason, alone. She's three games away from 100 playoff games, which is ridiculous. Right. Right. And so when things start to shift, when the swing starts to happen, which is what we saw in the second half, they lost it. They didn't have somebody that helped them regroup, whereas the dream is that the opposite. It wasn't just DB either. It was Ryan as well. It was all the-- it was their core that went through what they went through in the first round last year, that upset last year, which is hanging over their head. And so-- It was short in Canada, too. Yeah. Exactly, again, is another championship winning that in this league. So I think that's what is going to do it in this series is the experience that the dream have and inside in game 1. Yeah, absolutely. Ryan Howard impressed me so much. I think I've been very hard on Ryan Howard. I have been wanting her to live up to her potential, especially as apron threat for a very long time. 10 for 10 from the free throw line today. I got to give it to her. The five steals, which is very important in this series. Like this series changes a lot on the turnovers. It's going to be the X-Factor in game 2, as well, which does make it, again, one of those series where the story of the game just based on tiny factors can change very quickly. But this was always going to be a hinge point, right? The mystics turn the ball over more than any other team in the playoffs. And they're young. They're young. They're inexperienced. They don't have a lot of space to work with. And they don't really have a real point guard, right? Like they've been playing point guard by committee. Like not that they don't have a real point guard. That's dismissive to Georgia Emore. But Georgia Emore is in the throws of a rookie season where she's very much just trying to figure out where she fits on the court. And she has more increasingly is having her good moments. And she's been shooting so much better and that has had this downstream impact on the rest of her game. And she's a very smart player. But she's a very clearly-- we talked about Olivia Malas being a rookie. Georgia Emore is like, oh, rookie, rookie. And then they have Sonia Citron running the point. That's the second rookie. That's a double rookie. Sonia Citron is kind of runs it at certain points. I want to see Sonia Citron into the flip in game two. I want 22 shots. I want the ball on her hands. And then you just hope that Cody McMan plays a little bit better so he can get some stability from their point guard spot. But look, the dream force more turnovers than anybody else in the WNBA. They get more points off of turnovers than anybody else in the WNBA. They get more points in transition than anybody else in the WNBA. They're also dead last in half court positions. If somehow you can take care of the ball and make this a half court game in game two, maybe you have a shot. I think we saw little sprinkles of promise as well. Like Warren Betts, I thought it was just fantastic coming off the bench. Obviously, Kiki Iriefen can't get into that whatsoever again. And that's one of those young player discipline things. And she said so after the game. It's funny, but I think God, I think that's going to be a swing factor in this series as well is the foul trouble. Because Angel 2 got into foul trouble and ended up on the bench. But what they had is DB coming off the bench who can swing it back in their direction. The other thing when it comes to the turnovers, like the the mistakes looked good in the first half. Like they they limited their turnovers in the second or in the first half. But then by the end of the game, they're giving up almost 30 points off of turnovers. Like that's the game. That's the game right there. And that's also that's a dream formula for victory, ultimately, as well. Like that is how if they if they go to the finals, if they win this series, this is how they when, you know, they they turn you over and they make it like they just don't make it a half court game. And you know, they have three players that are at the top three in steals in Angel Reese, Ryan Howard and Jordan Canada. So they're well equipped to be able to play that way. I think where were you out on the panic meter with the with the mystics? I think I'm still in the yellow because I think going back to Washington is going to help them stabilize. I don't know that I still believe that they're going to win this series because my question coming into it was, are we going to see a jump from the dream? You're over here in terms of their handling of pressure or to their point what they were saying in New York before the regular season ended was the single possessions. Like we know now in the playoffs every single possession matters so much. And so we saw that in game one. And that to me is what changed my mentality on it on it. But no, I think I'm still in the yellow. I think it'll go to three games, but I think the dream I end up taking it. Yeah, I'm kind of in the same spot. If only because this mystics team has so many unknown factors. Now that a whole bunch of their players have finally gotten their first taste of playoff basketball. I'm just excited to see how they react to that, right? And that's just that's just a huge unknown factor. Like maybe Keke comes out and she's a absolute monster. Maybe it's Sony. Maybe it's Cody. Maybe Lauren beds gets more minutes. Angel Reese, in her playoff debut, I thought was really interesting as well. Like, I expected her to struggle in her first playoff game because I just think there's been so much building up to this moment for Angel Reese who in year three has been, has had her goal of making the playoffs since she entered the league. And she's one of those players where I think she gets very, very psyched up for moments like this. And this is like kind of like the first time in her life that she's been on this stage. So I'm not surprised that she got into foul trouble. And then I do think that she calmed down through the course of the game. So I'm interested in seeing like, honestly, Angel Reese going back to Washington, going back to Baltimore, seeing what the crowd is like there for her, but also like, can she, can she channel that energy? How does she channel it? Yeah. And what kind of performance do we get from her, like do we, or we then back to the sort of like what we've become accustomed to in the last, you know, couple of months from her. matchups struggle for her too. She played, she really even. in the midst of playing really, really well. One of her worst games was against the Mystics. So that's definitely something to watch. But yeah, I don't know. It's also just like, it doesn't matter that much because the Mystics are playing with house money and everything is experienced. And like Sidney Johnson's gonna win. Like not gonna win. He was like third in coach of the year. He was awesome. He was my vote. Cheryl Reed won coach of the year, also totally deserved, like not really upset about that either way. But like it's just like, it's all gravy, dude. - I know, I know, I think the biggest thing for the Mystics is like what this is gonna do for their free agency. Like how many, you know, how are things going to shake out in free agency? Because now you have everybody on notice. You have these stars that, these young stars that a lot of vets are gonna wanna play for or play with, excuse me. And so I think that's their biggest win of the season is again, speeding up a timeline that many of us didn't expect them. - Yeah. - At least I could speak for myself. Like did not expect them to be here this quickly. - Yeah. - And that's gonna be intriguing, in my opinion, to a lot of veterans in the league. - Yeah, totally. Is that some of you're hearing? Or just some of your feelings? - Women's intuition. - It's a little, yeah, I think it's a little early to talk specifics about what we're hearing about free agency, but I just think Sidney's proven himself to be, you know, a great coach in this league. - Who doesn't want their coach coming in to asking every time you play a great game. - He's a star guy. - He's a star guy. - And like was a disaster season. I can see why people are like looking around and being like, wow, these are like the only people that are consistently having fun right now. - I just think again, these young players Shakira, her growth this year. I originally didn't have her most improved. I ended up switching my vote at the last minute. So, there we go. But yeah, I think between her, Sony and Kiki, like this is an intriguing group that a lot of us, I think they're going to want to play with. - Yeah, to your point, I think Shakira Austin just proves to how much like infrastructure Washington has put into its player development as well. Like I know they're one of the steps. It's like actually short out on that level as well. And I think players are also appreciative of that. They also have, you know, top three odds at a draft pick in 2027, thank you Chicago. So, they're in a really good spot, regardless of what happens. And, you know, I think Washington's just look really impressive. Let's quickly talk about the last game of the night. - You have a press conference to go to, don't you? - Yes, I do. - Can you sense me clock watching? - When is it? - It's soon, I'm like really close to the hotel. Don't worry about it. - Okay, okay. - I have a plan. I'm gonna be fine. But so the wing's panic meter is obviously very high. - Very high. - But also like, again, one of those things where everything we need to learn about this team kind of happened in, you know, in the end of the regular season. I will say I'm very impressed with the Valkyries. I think their ability to just like decimate Jessica Shepherd. I think it's just one of those previews for like the level of like preparation and game plan execution that they're gonna have going down the line. In the post season, Pagebeckers was awesome in her playoff debut. Every shot she hit was really tough. Like it was the quickness with which, I mean, honestly, just like the way she can decelerate rise when you're up, get her shot. - Yeah. - She's like, yep. - I know. - Oh my gosh. This game kind of reminded me of those early March Madness games where you're really evaluating a team by whether they can, not really like, whether they can win, but how long they can hang around before the top comes off. And you know, they hung around for maybe 18 minutes. Which is not bad. (laughs) - Yeah, I think that's like kind of the unfortunate thing about the wings or has been proven to be the unfortunate thing about the wings is when they get thrown off, they just kind of like step back. They stop showing up. And I think, I mean, Page said it post-game herself. Like we just, once we got down, I mean, I'm paraphrasing. I don't know what her exact quote was, but she just talked about this team's inability to like withstand and kind of rise up and just not get so broken by another team's run. And I think the way that the Valkyries took Jessica Shepherd out of the game to your point was just like they did what they wanted to do. They absolutely got everything that they wanted out of that game. And I think the other thing too is like, throughout the entire season, the biggest question for them has been, what is their offensive production going to be like? Is this the team that's going to be able to hang with the best, especially from the three-point line? And they shot what, 30% or 50% from three? Like that is, again, they just, they're going to do a great team. They looked like a championship team. - Yeah, they also were able to get into the point in the pain in a way that's like going to be important for them going forward. - Like, they are the number one defense in the league. I just said that stat, you win nine times out of 29. If you're the number one defense in the league, you're maybe going to play the aces. I don't want to get too ahead of myself, but the aces get a lot of pain in the point. The Valkyries don't. I wonder if you started kind of pre-working on how you're going to deal with Asia-Wilson and Jackie Young who've given you a lot of problems. - I'm sure Natalie is already thinking about it. - Yeah, all right, sorry to the Valkyries and the Wings fans. We do have to give you a little bit of short trip here. I have to run to the show, repress conference. And he thank you so much for making the time. Wings fans, Valkyries fans, we'll find a different time to talk about you. Also, look, first podcast of the playoffs, if you guys enjoyed it. If you guys have friends that are like, really getting into the WNB right now, recommend, share, subscribe. Make sure your tap did. Like, comment, subscribe. - Like, comment, subscribe. - Thank you, Annie. Thank you as well to Stefan Anderson for producing, as always. And we will talk to you very soon. And look, heads might roll. I think I might have to have you want to get into on Thursday. I think that's when you're really going to start being able to empty the clip. Annie, follow her work at the athletic. As soon as some of these teams get knocked out of the playoffs, I think that not that you were already pretty candid, I think you're going to be able to get more candid. So definitely watch the spaces that Annie is. And thank you again. Enjoy the games, everybody. I deeply have to go. [LAUGHS] [MUSIC PLAYING] [BLANK_AUDIO]