EEC 122: Coach the Person, Not the Problem

[Music] Hello and a very warm welcome to the excellent executive coaching podcast. This program is all about helping you thrive in some of the most challenging coaching situations. Our aim is to support you in bringing your coaching to the next level, whether you're new to coaching or you're already an expert professional. Welcome to the excellent executive coaching podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Katrina Behruse, and I have the pleasure, but a real pleasure to interview not only a wonderful coach, but a good friend, Dr. Marsha Reynolds. Marsha, welcome. Thank you, Katrina. It's nice to be here. So maybe you could introduce yourself as a coach. You've been in the business for so long, president of the ICF, one of the first presidents of ICF. Tell us a little more, Marsha. Well, actually, I spent 16 years working for organizations before I found coaching, teaching leadership and communications, but I was always curious, what does it really take to help people change to improve their behavior, to do things better? And in fact, I have multiple degrees because I kept wanting to research and learn more. So that's what I've always focused on is how can leaders through conversations help people to change and grow. So coaching was just natural when I found that. It's like, oh, well, here's the technology I've been looking for. And so that's why I'm so passionate about the difference we can make with coaching. Wonderful. And Marsha, you know, you said, and your approach is to shift from external problem solving focus to an internal focus, internal focus. So tell us a little bit more about that. Well, the thing is, is that most of the time, the people that we're working with are smart, the resourceful people, and they get stuck. And so to step back and say, is it that they really need to tell them what to do, which often doesn't work? Or is it better if I could help them see through the fog and to see the possibilities on their own that they'll probably find a better solution than I would have for them anyway? So instead of looking at, you know, what's the problem, you know, what are the possible solutions and the consequences and, you know, the SWAT analysis to really step back and help people to see. So how are you thinking about this situation? You know, what perspective are you using? What's the story that you're telling? And is there anything else that you're missing? And to start to have them see beyond their stories, beyond their frames, to other possibilities, it's far more not just effective in finding solutions, but it feels better for the person to help them resolve their own problems than to constantly having to be going to someone else to be given ideas that they could have found on their own. So it's really the coaching approach where you don't find solutions, you help the other think it through. Right. You know, but so many people still get coaching next up and they think that coaching is problem solving. And even when you say solution focus, they're saying, okay, so we're going to look at all the solutions, which is the external situation and frankly, could the person not do that on their own? When I look at someone, I say, what is it that they can't do for themselves, you know, think through their blocks, which they can't do on their own, they could find, you know, different solutions without me. But what is it that I can most help them with? And that's to think more broadly for themselves. So how do you do that? Can you explain to our listeners and maybe explain reflective inquiry and how it's different for most other coaches? Yeah. Well, again, so many times people think coaching is just asking questions. And you know, there's a lot of books out there that say here are the most important questions to ask. And a lot of coach trainings kind of shifted to the powerful question and only open questions. And you know, sometimes a close question is good, you know, to get people to really, really clarify and narrow in on what they're thinking. But even beyond that, to use reflective statements. So reflective statements are, you know, paraphrasing, summarizing, labeling where you find just one or two words to label a dilemma. Sometimes bottom lining. So this is what you said you want. And this is what's getting in the way. Can we just, you know, take a look at that? That what we're doing again is helping people to think about their thinking. So questions sometimes don't get people to truly understand that if we simply reflect back to them to where they can hold their stories in their hands and actually look at them objectively, that are we not doing them a great service? That when you look at the behavioral economists like Daniel Coniman and some of the neuroscientists, you know, they say that we don't reflect on our experiences and our stories on our own. And the more emotions there are, the less we do that. So all we're doing is getting people to reflect on their thinking and the beliefs and the assumptions that are holding their stories together. And so by using reflective statements combined with questions, it's actually far more powerful than just the question alone. And, Laura, give us some examples for our listeners. Okay. So, you know, somebody like I had a client that was like just totally overwhelmed and she she had so many things to do and she's like, I can't prioritize. And so I could have said so what was prioritizing look like or what's most important to you? But she could do that on her own. She was stuck. So, when I said to her, okay, so let me get this straight. What you're telling me is that you have a lot of things to do, everything's piled up and you're feeling so overwhelmed that it's difficult for you to sort through what's most important is that correct. You know, and when she said, well, yeah, I guess, you know, most important, I probably could sort that out. It's just that it's the pressure. It's the pressure that's only even more so than what's important. Okay. So, can we look at, you know, what is what is this pressure? How real is that and where is it coming from? So, you see, we started to shift what it is that was really making this difficult for her. Just by me, reflecting back to her, what she said so she could hear her story. And frankly, this was a really smart person who had many degrees and many years of experience and she knew how to prioritize. I didn't have to tell her how. She just needed to see what was really getting in her way. What was the emotion that was blocking her sight? That was more helpful for her than sorting through what's most important. How can you prioritize what's the criteria? Very good example. Thank you. So, that's, you're underlying something that emotionally that is blocking them or some way of thinking that's blocking them or a belief that's blocking them from really tackling the issue at hand. Right. Which is, you know, I always say coaching is a way of helping people see through the fog. And so, what they've gotten is just real cloudy in their head. And so, we're just helping them kind of sort through that and have the fog kind of dissipate so they can see forward more clearly on their own. Marsha, you've written a book called Coach the Person, the problem as you're explaining here. You've also mentioned that you break it down into five crazy coaching beliefs. Would you list those beliefs? Sure. So, you know, the coaching beliefs are things like what you ask me. What is it that is being taught that that's actually getting in the way? And, you know, what I have found Katrina is you're right. I have been around coaching now for over 25 years. And so, I've been teaching and mentoring and assessing for certification. And so, these are the things that I'm finding that are growing in misunderstanding and confusion. You know, and the first one, the belief is it takes a long time to be good at coaching. And I can remember when I first started and Thomas Leonard, who, you know, founded the first coaching school in the ICF, we were all saying, oh, we can't go out and coach, because he says you have to practice. And we said, we don't have skills. And he said, oh, just go love them. Yeah, nice. I know. And that made me realize right up front that the most important thing we're doing is we're creating a safe space for people to show up as themselves. We don't have to be perfect coaches but if they feel safe enough to be themselves then they can truly say what's on their mind and they can listen to themselves think. So first off is just can you create a safe space for people? It doesn't take a long time to do that. The second belief is what we already talked about that you need to have questions to break through people's thoughts when actually reflective statements can be just or more more powerful. The third one I was even told I couldn't teach at a school because I use closed questions when I coach. Well I do because I use a lot of reflections and so the question might be is this true? So you're telling me that your entire team is resisting the change. Is that true? Is it your entire team? And I've often got well no not the entire team it's just a few people. So sometimes the closed question helps people like drill down to what is the truth in this moment. So I think there's definitely a place for closed questions or distinctions is this or is it this that help people to drill down and to clarify their situation. So don't just count those. And then once we get what where they're going then you can open it up and use more open questions more what questions and how questions. Well like you just demonstrated a closed question to say is your entire team not engaged is basically pushing them to reflect because if it's the entire team there's no power in what he can do and that way you're actually showing him the way. Absolutely and so many times I found that that same scenario it turns out it's really just one or two people that are being annoying and the rest of the team is fine. And then we start to drill down to what's annoying. You know and oftentimes it's just the leader is fear of addressing a difficult conversation. You know so we have to peel off the layers and sometimes close questions help peel off the layers to find out what is the true dilemma. So you helped them also face what their underlying fear is and overcoming it like you just gave the example fear of dressing a difficult fearful conversation. Right. You know and then that the fourth crazy coaching believes has to do with what you just said is and you know when we drill down and we kind of nail them to this one problem sometimes it feels a little edgy or pushy and that's okay. You know I've had one time I was doing a demo and the woman kept saying yes I can do this but and every time she would say but whatever she said after but was a deeper look at her fear and I'd say okay so what you're telling me is it's not really this that's your problem it's really this is that true is that what you want to look at and we did that four or five times and after the demo this one of the observers asked the the client did that annoy you that she kept saying that to you is this what you really want to look at is this what you really want to look at and she says yes it was annoying and it's exactly what I needed so sometimes we are a little confrontational as coaches we do push and and we can't be afraid of making our clients uncomfortable in order to get to reality. Very good point very good and that we've got covered the five can you just repeat them for our listeners. So the first one was it takes a long time to be good at coaching it's your definition of what good means and if it's a safe space is that enough that it's just the second one is we just use questions when there's far more things we can use the third one is is about that we can't use close questions when sometimes there's a place for that the fourth one is you know being more reflective and and a little edgy is wrong because it feels like we're pushing and again if we're helping our clients really drill down to the essence of their dilemma then it's okay if they're uncomfortable and then the fifth one is really important right now in this time of crisis. The fifth one is that we always have to have a very clear vision of where we're going of a desired future in coaching and right now this crisis any future that we create is speculation so we can have a direction in coaching of where we want to go but it doesn't necessarily have to have a clear vision of the outcome. Very good point very good point so I encourage our listeners to look at her book to get even more detail coach the person and not the problem. Thank you Martian and since we've mentioned the coronavirus what are your best tips for coaching in times of crisis and uncertainty? Yeah well you know we briefly mentioned earlier about you know the stories that we're telling in our head and that's where we get stuck. What the glue of those stories are our beliefs and assumptions. Beliefs are the things that we're saying about the present moment and we're focusing on and right now and when there's a crisis we always look at the worst case scenarios and we believe you know we're attracted to the news because it's negative we have this negativity bias and we're not looking at you know what is good that's happening and other things so we want to look at what are the beliefs about the present that we're holding and also our assumptions about the future so assumptions are speculative and most of times we have no idea what's going to happen in the future so even saying how do you know that to be true could anything else be possible is so important so right now again people really don't know what it's going to look like six months from now but if we could help them look at what's what beliefs and assumptions are holding their stories together and maybe see beyond these beliefs beyond these assumptions you know see beyond the story that they're holding in their head into what else is possible it's so important that we do that for people right now very good point and also what are the three mental habits you suggest coaches cultivate to make their skills more effective because you teach a lot and you have the year so give our other coaches some tips okay well you know for years and even in my last book they're discomfort zone I talked about aligning your brain which is really aligning your entire nervous system your head your heart and your gut are all connected and we have to be you know open our brain with curiosity and open our heart with care and compassion and open our gut with courage so we can be fully physically present when we coach so that's the first one is is a you know full body alignment which creates that openness in our brain okay Marcia for those that are listening and maybe newer to coaching help them understand how to align all that I know that's you can't do that in five minutes but maybe something you can tell them to prepare for the even coach well actually too and if they go on my website covisioning.com under discomfort zone there's a visualization that they can just you know copy download and use that actually walks them through how to open their mind again with curiosity to feel curious now remember curiosity is an emotion not just a thought so can I feel curious you know and breathe that in and then and then you open your heart by remembering somebody or something in your life that makes you you know feel good feel gratitude or oftentimes I tell people go to your phone and look at your favorite pictures you're gonna have pictures of your family and pictures of places you've been in the world that that make you smile that make you feel good you know and this opens your heart so you have a phone you phone to open your heart and then recall a time in your life where you stood up or spoke up in time in spite of your fear that sense that you can activate your courage that opens your gut so you use three emotions of curiosity of care gratitude of smiling and courage to open your entire nervous systems which brings you present and when you do this people feel psychologically safe with you there's a lot of research that proves this so you can do this in just a few minutes before you talk to anybody you can quickly align your nervous system which aligns your brain and And that's just step one. You said three mental habits. That's the first one, but that's the most critical. - Great. Now can you tell us as other two? - Yeah. The second one is, you know, we often teach active listening. And I always say, you know, it feels like you're doing that to somebody that what I want you to do is to receive. So when you align your brain and you open your nervous system, you're actually preparing yourself to receive what it is that people give you, not just in their words, but their emotions, their energy. And when I receive what I give you and then just give it back, reflect it back to you. So you're telling me this. So I noticed that you got really quiet in the moment you were talking about the future. You know, what is it that's concerning you right now? So I receive all of your expression, not just listen. And I give it back to you. So I say, this is non-reactive empathy. I receive it, I understand it. And I give it back to you without getting stuck in the story. (laughs) - Great. Great. - So. - So. - So that's the second one. And then the third one is, catch and release your judgment. You know, it was a number of years ago, I was teaching in China. And the person who was talking, my client, I was doing a coaching demo, was talking about something that truly activated my value system. It was like totally against, you know, what I was brought up to believe. And I realized judgment is an emotion. I could feel it in my solar plexus. And here was this person who cared about people and wanted to develop them. And so what? This thing he was talking about had nothing to do with the coaching. Could I not just release my judgment and come back and being present with him? So when we practice emotional intelligence of recognizing emotion and shifting it, we have to remember that judgment is an emotion as well. And every time you judge what people are saying, it's wrong or that they need your advice, they can't do it on their own. Can you just let that go and come back and be present with the person so you can coach them? - Excellent. Wonderful. And unfortunately, we're coming to the end of the podcast, much to my regret, Martia. Where can people get hold of you? Of course, we'll have all this information on the descriptor of the website. But tell us live, Martia. - Okay, well, again, my website is covisioning. One word, covisioning.com. I'm Martia, M-A-R-C-I-A at covisioning.com. I'm happy to answer questions. On the website, there's something on top that says books. So you can click and see all my books, including the new book, coach the person, not the problem. And lots of other tips and resources that are useful that they can use. - Wonderful, Martia. Tell us before we finish this podcast, what's your next project? - Yeah. Well, you know, the book is actually released until June 2nd. So I'm emmished with all the things that I need to do to promote the book. And I'm gonna be creating online courses and little videos and all kinds of things to help people to integrate everything that I'm teaching them. No matter if they're new to coaching or they've been coaching for years, I'm gonna give them tools that they can use to elevate their coaching. - Wonderful, wonderful. So covision.com. Thank you so very much, Martia. Great to have you on the show. - Thank you. It was great to be here. - Thanks for listening to the excellent executive coaching podcast. We hope you enjoyed the program. You can subscribe to all future podcasts at excellentexecutivecoaching.com and sign up for monthly newsletters featuring all the latest tips and techniques to bring your coaching to the next level. Join us again soon and until then, bye for now. (upbeat music)