EdUp Innovation: Episode 24, Dr. Paul LeBlanc, President Emeritus, Southern New Hampshire University

Welcoming Dr. Paul LeBlanc, President Emeritus of SNHU Bay. I'm actually in clearly California City is my girlfriend's birthday. But I didn't want to lose this episode because my guest today is Paula Blanc, the former president of Southern New Hampshire University, definitely one of the most innovative leaders in higher education. French, French Canadian born Paul was president at Southern New Hampshire from 2003 to 2024. In 2015, he advised Ted Mitchell, who at the time was Under Secretary of Education, on competency based education, on which Paul is certainly an expert and and was voted one of America's most innovative college presidents by Washington Monthly. He was on the ACE board of directors and is currently a commissioner with the Post Secondary Commission. I was doing amazing work with the Gates Foundation. We're going to dive in with Paul today. Paul, I got to tell you when I started the the podcast, I made a list of dream guests right away, like who would I love to have on the on the show? And your name was certainly at the top of the list. So I am. I am so honored to talk with you today. Speaker 2 You're very kind, Brad. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you. Speaker 1 Yeah, I appreciate it. So, you know, I visited Southern New Hampshire and we met back in 2016 when I was AACE fellow and you were you were so generous to our cohort and and sort of showing us around and letting us peek under the hood of the operation at Southern New Hampshire, which is certainly just such a Cinderella story, like such an amazing story and hired can. The Rocket Ride: SNHU's Transformation from 2003 to 2024 I mean, I'm sure our listeners are familiar, but if you wouldn't mind, just kind of give us a brief overview of your journey as president from 2003 to 2024. Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean I arrived in 2003 and you know it was a place that had in its DNA always had in its DNA serving non traditional students in non traditional ways. So early continuing IT programs and military programs, sites on bases. So there was a, a kind of openness and a willingness to entertain new models. And also it wasn't very well known, you know, it was a struggling institution in many ways. So there was a hunger to improve and be better and be more stable and so on and so on. So I had a very favourable environment in which to think about new ideas. I also had a small online program. There are 18 people and a few 100 students and I thought I could play this card. You know, I also say when you arrive as a leader of a new institution, it's like being dealt into a high stakes poker game. Like you got to play the best cards you have. That was a pretty good card. I could see. Obviously at that point, you know, the for profit big online providers were educating about 12% of all American College students. They were huge and I thought, you know, what would it take to compete with them? What would it take to compete with the Phoenix? That was kind of our question that drove us and that was a big audacious thing to even ask given our little size and so on. But that was our starting point. And I also, you know, the two big impediments to innovation are kind of long standing traditions and high status and the big endowment. When you have those two things, they have very little incentive to kind of muck things up and change things. But I don't know any school actually today that isn't facing an innovation challenge or kind of rethinking their delivery models challenge. So you know, then, you know, the unsexy part of this journey of 21 years was the first few years, which was really about getting under the hood and fixing all the business rules and work flows and what do we put students through? And, you know, I remember asking people, the team to meet with me and walk me through every step between inquiry to matriculation and all the things that had to happen, all the decisions had to be made, all the things we would ask students to do. And at the end, it looked like the schematic to a nuclear reactor. You know, it was the one that anyone involved. So we began a process of like, how do we start to sort of streamline and rethink about those, think about those processes different, particularly through the lens of who we were trying to serve. And that was a really important thing I'll come back to because I think there are some lessons learned even though the times are very different. When we had that in place, we started to do some marketing and people looked a little scant because we were like doing things on television. And, you know, this was new for us and we're trying to see if it worked. And it really did. What we found is that for those non traditional, our typical student at that time was a 32 year old with a couple of kids, a full time job kind of stuck needing it, needing a, a post secondary credential to unlock an opportunity. So we could really focus on that. Somewhere in the middle of that, we kind of figured out what were the real key drivers and there were four CS, What was convenience? It had to fit in their busy lives. They're working full time and they got kids like when are they going to be able to? How, how can we make it easy for them to integrate into those very busy lives? So convenience is really critical. And that included like how we made our administrative processes easier. Completion time was another one. So having a very transfer credit friendly policy was really important because these people are feeling urgency. They're going to come back and do this hard thing because they needed that economic opportunity, but they have a lot of time. They felt pressure. So the more credits we could take, with integrity, of course, but the more credits we could take, the closer they were to the finish line. Cost is big, right? They were a stock and they were struggling economically. So could we keep our costs low? And then finally, credential, which is, was it the right credential? Would it indeed unlock an opportunity? Was it tied to skills that were in demand in the workplace? When we've got those four things right, we really start to take off, driven by this investment in marketing spend. But you know, yeah, so that's the story. I mean, between, in 2012, we were the 50th on the list of 50 largest nonprofit providers. Three years later, we were #4 it was a rocket ride. We broke everything. We didn't know how to scale, like one of the scar tissue over that. And it's also appeared where everyone remembers. It may have been the most fun three years of the 21, right? Like it was just, we were learning so much. We had grown. We couldn't order computers fast enough. We didn't get furniture fast enough. We were leasing more and more mill space. But it really was an exciting time. And then we learned. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Well, certainly it it worked, Paul. It it it was. Speaker 2 About 250,000 students. So right up there. WGO is the two largest, I think, universities in the country. Speaker 1 Right, right. Yeah, certainly hyper, hyper scale. And I, I remember in 2016, so just a few years after those 2012 rocket ride years, that just seeing the mill and the cubicle farm that I mean, the scale of it was, was hot, inspiring. Speaker 2 We got down in 10 and 20 and 30,000 square feet out of how to go until we took over that huge mill complex. It was really good fun. There was great energy there. Speaker 1 Yeah, incredible. Is it true that you guys at the very beginning took out a Super Bowl ad? And that's not true. That's. Speaker 2 No, we never did. No, that's too expensive. Speaker 1 Myth. Speaker 2 OK. Yeah. It's funny that that myth is out there though. No, we never did that. We did a lot of advertising then. There was a key point years ago now where digital marketing superseded broadcast marketing in terms of our spend. You know, it's obviously online took off. So we were doing more and more digital marketing. And now of course, streaming sure took us a while to master that. We got we've gotten really good at it. The team's gotten really good at it. I still say we like I'm there, it's just half force of habit. But I'm president emeritus. I'll say we but yeah, but the but the marketing team is killer. Good. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, for sure. You guys have great marketing, haven't and will continue to have great marketing. Key Lessons for Higher Ed Leaders from SNHU's Hyperscale Growth So looking at this, this what I call the Cinderella story, this incredible rags to riches from this small liberal arts college to this massive hyperscale enterprise. What lessons can a Provost or president who's listening to the show take from your experience at Southern New Hampshire and what innovations could they apply even at a smaller scale? As you look across the sector, so many schools are struggling right now with the demographic clip and the sort of legislative environment, the the public doubt on the value of higher education. What what are some lessons there? I mean, the four C's definitely are applicable to lots of universities, but what are what are some more of the kind of practical tactical lessons that you might impart? Speaker 2 Yeah, I kind of, I alluded to this, we didn't have the terminology at the time, but really getting immersed in sort of jobs to be done approach to the market, which is deeply understand your student, your your customer, your consumer and I mean deeply. Like really what are the things that drive their purchase decision? What makes it work for them? What do they look and do? What is the job they're trying to accomplish when they come to you? Been getting very laser focused on that. I think that's one. Two, I think part of our success was not trying to be all things to all people. So we got really focused on who we served and how we served. I think there's a lot of pressure on institutions to kind of be everything. And it comes from every faculty, you know, department that wants to also get more resources to do more of X, to do more of Y. And I think the schools that are effectively navigating a lot of the turmoil right now, they're getting very, very analytical about what what do our students come to us for? What are the things we should stop doing, which is very hard in higher ET. How do we not how do we stay focused on the things that make a real difference? And the other one I would say is that, you know, in the end, we don't we're not manufacturing, We're not in manufacturing industry. We're about towns and people and, you know, fielding the right team. If I can use the sports analogy, which I'm my wife tells me I should stop doing. But but I think, you know, you know, as a leader, you are a player coach. And as the conditions change, you need to make sure that you're getting the right players on the floor. And sometimes that means, you know, having a hard conversation with someone who's done an exceedingly good job for you, who's been a great employee, but now the conditions have changed in ways that make them less effective or are not as good a fit. And I think that's always hard. But I think it was really critical. It's all about talent and getting the best people you can and not settling for B plus players. You know, someone said to me, if you're that close, get the A player like you're not that far off. Yeah. So I think, I think those are really critical. Speaker 1 That's a great lesson. And I remembered, I mean, this still stands out ten years later from the visit to Southern New Hampshire. The folks that you were surrounding yourself with, their, your Provost, some of your other senior leaders, a lot of them coming out of the military, if I remember. Speaker 2 There's a military folks, Yeah, we hired pretty widely outside of higher Ed and as well. And we also, you know, developed talent inside, but also very open to bringing talent in from the outside and I think getting that mix right. So when I said that we know we broke everything during that incredible scaling period, that was a good example of where an amazing head of HR who had been there forever, and I love her and she was like so dedicated. She was also weighed over her skis in terms of her ability to sort of handle this level of growth. So, you know, we had the hard conversation. I brought in somebody from a very large financial services business who is like, why are all your managers taking care of the hiring process? Like you need a talent acquisition team. Like, and they were like, we were growing so fast. Like managers weren't actually having any time to attend to their teams and their jobs. They're too busy hiring. And well, let you know, let us bring only the last two good people to them. And, and then why are they like walking them around and getting them settled in and showing them where the bathroom is and getting them to desk? Like have we need a talent onboarding? Like she knew how to operate at scale. I didn't, right. And our HR team didn't. So I think there are a number of those instances where like, oh, we need like they're almost, they're almost sort of step functions. It's like you can go on a wide slope for a while and then there'll be a point in your growth where it's like, oh, wait a minute, I've got to rethink my systems, my talent. Like everything that drives our success. Now it's up for revisiting, including your own role. There's a point, you know, when we were at about $500 million in size, when I arrived, it was about 70 and I had dinner with my board. I asked for a special dinner with the board and said I don't know if I'm the right guy anymore. Like I'm still running this place like we're at 70 million. I don't know everybody anymore. Like I used to know everybody. As a result, they could walk around and kind of have my finger on the pulse. I'm getting surprised now. Like, I don't like that. You shouldn't like it. And, you know, and I said what I'd like to do is have, you know, give me 6 months and let me come back to you and tell you whether we should start a search process or whether I think I can do the job for you. And, and you know, I concluded that I could, but I really had to change my leadership and what I was going to spend my time on and my priorities and how I delegated and so on. The next time I asked that question was, you know, at year 20. And I decided no, it's time. Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah. Well, I mean, what tremendous self-awareness on your part to even say, am I, is it me? Am I the right person to do this? That I think a lot of leaders, whether it's ego or fear, would would never even go there. And so kudos, Kudos to you for doing that. I know. Was Clay Christensen on your board? Yeah. Speaker 2 Clay was a dear friend. You know, we met 40 something years ago when I was at grad school still and we were playing basketball in a church gym in Cambridge, MA Well, before he went to Harvard, he was the CEO of a high tech ceramics firm. And I like to tell him I passed away a couple years, as you know, but I used to tell him all the time. It's like I used to know you before you were famous. Yeah, he was a great man, a great teacher. So he was on my board and a lot of the innovation playbook that I have deployed and still today is really based in work with Clay and conversations with Clay. And he was trustee emeritus when he timed out. You know, about how many terms he could serve. Speaker 1 Great man. Yeah, incredible. Certainly his legacy lives on in the Clayton Christensen Institute and his books. Yeah, amazing legacy. Scouting the Emerging Wilderness: AI's Enterprise Deployment in Universities So, Paul, I'd love to shift gears. You know, when I saw you at ACE, you were talking a lot about AI. And certainly it is the IT is the future. It is here, it is the fourth industrial revolution. I really appreciated your talk where you read this empathetic response from from an agent. Yeah, incredible. And I know you're working with the Gates Foundation. So as you look across higher Ed, it would be amazing to hear kind of the state of play of AI as you see it right now. And I'm also wondering because this is an issue we're dealing with that at SFBU as AI takes on the role of kind of content expert, content delivery assessment. How do you see the role of human faculty, which is even amazing words to have come out of my mouth, human faculty, how do you see that role shifting in terms of things that AI is not yet good at, like empathy or judgement or mentorship? Your development give, give us give us the, the lay of the land. What do you see? Speaker 2 Let's start with the aperture. So open up wide and you know, I'm doing this work for the Gates Foundation, which asked me to kind of they would call this sort of scouting mission and this emerging wilderness that we are entering of AI in education AAI in the society. Could I sort of scout out kind of where what, what it's looking like? So I'm out there sort of, you know, mapping the territory a little bit for them. So broadly speaking, 90% of high red employees are now using AI regularly for their own personal productivity at work. So it's not an enterprise like you may be doing training, you may be licensing tools even without you as a leader. They're doing it like they're figuring it out with all different levels of effectiveness. Big jump in the enterprise, wide deployment of AI, 17% jump from last year. So about 6760% of universities are now deploying AI across the enterprise. If you look at where it's used most often, not surprisingly, it's IT. And then it's data analytics and then it's leadership actually. So leadership teams are using and thinking a lot about it on the blower end. And this one surprises me a little bit. It's marketing because I there are a lot of good marketing solutions out there, but marketing is a low deployment, financial aid, not surprising and admissions management. And these are places I think all three of those are very ripe, but interestingly is low penetration and then teaching and learning kind of falls in the middle. And that's very fraught territory. I would say that we universities are a sector. We are still largely in the plane pilot phase. So you've got a lot of pilots going on, you've got a lot of deployments, but they're point solutions. We're trying this over here, they're trying this over here. Often not particularly well organized. So it's a department that is using a solution and they really not talking to anybody else. And IT people are turning their head out a little bit around security, data privacy and so on. Very uneven in terms of clear policy supports for faculty, staff and students. And I think this is a problem. I'm tend to be a bit of a critic here. I think you need to think about what are university wide policies? People are hungry for clear guidance and supports. By the way, what are your policies? And then what is your policy at the kind of departmental unit level? So if your financial aid or if your history department or if you're marketing, what are you saying to your people within your department? So scaffolded policy. And then at the other top end, you know, what is what are you giving people's individual like, you know, respecting academic freedom, for example, and choices faculty make. So there's not very, there's not a lot of great examples of this happening, penetration, excuse me, meaningful use, much higher, no surprise in the back office administrative side than in the teaching and learning side. There are lots of agents, tutors mostly being deployed and so on. So I think of somebody like the work of Ron Stallnacker at Georgia Southern. This is AVP of Business and finance to save like, you know, millions of dollars on utility costs by deploying AI over the old 1990s era. Building system management, building management systems that everyone has on their campuses. You know, this is the ones that allow facilities to turn down the heat or have a sensor on a machine that's almost about to break. But by layering an eye on that because they're getting incredible results. So, you know, there's really good work being done in very practical ways. Probably the most stellar example of this from a data and architecture perspective. Syracuse University just spent some time with them last week, but they're doing a very aggressive deployment of AI agents and across the student life cycle. And it's really terrific work. And it's sort of based on Open Claw, so a more secure, hopefully fully secure version of that. And there aren't, as you probably know, new secure versions, but open cloud for your, for your listeners who may not be familiar with it. It's fairly new technology came out last fall. I mean, you don't want to play with it. It's pretty technical and on zero to 100 in terms of security, it's probably a 2. Like it's really dangerous, but people have played with it and, and made it, you know, sort of dealt with the data security pieces of this. But what it, it's the closest thing, the notion of having an AI assistant who works on your behalf. So it doesn't just sort of do what you tell it to, but can go off and make decisions on your behalf. So it might have access to your e-mail and able to respond and also put things in your calendar, like, so I e-mail you Brad. I say, hey, I need to talk to Brad. It has some rules around this of Paula Blanks and contacts He's recognized. Brad would want to take this meeting. I'll go and e-mail Paul back and say, Paul, would this option work? If I say yes, it goes in and puts it in the calendar. It Dings me like it's pretty amazing. Yeah. Yeah. And that's the one that you were alluding to that I was reading. Yeah. A little bit from AC. So Syracuse is being very aggressive in the deployment. Of those kinds of agents which you know, work around the clock and we're getting much better on things like hallucinations and accuracy. The systems are getting better. So it's kind of an amazing time, but it's very early still. That's where I would say we are broadly speaking across higher end today, bit of a land grab by the big LLM companies, you know signing enterprise deals. It's a little bit like it's not, it's not particularly interesting, but I think, you know, we have colleagues who love to announce that because it looks like you're doing something big, right? Speaker 1 You know. Speaker 2 It's just like licensing Microsoft, right? Like, OK, great. But what are you doing with it? We know what are your applications? How are you thinking about it? Yeah, what an exciting time. Redefining Teaching and Learning with AI: Precision & Holistic Education And then I'm, you know, redefining teaching and learning and assessment. So this is where I think we get into your more complicated question, your more Gray area question, which is this is not science fiction. Today we can build platforms. There are platforms that will do knowledge transfer as well or better than most human faculty. Speaker 1 Yes. Speaker 2 It's available 24/7. It's increasingly personalized speak. Speaker 1 To 300 languages right A. Speaker 2 100 languages students don't have to feel embarrassed asking questions. They would be, you know, we know the research on 1st generation students of color who don't want to signal their non belonging by asking questions like it just does so much well. And when I think this allows and what I argued with colleagues in a recent Educos review article that just came out a couple of weeks ago is that it's an invitation to rethink the faculty role and the time we spent together with students in classrooms. In my view, that should be close the laptop. This is human time. This is time to build a relationship, make students feel like they matter, enrich their experience. You know, they have learned and if you think about it, but it's probably the best analogy is sort of the flipped classroom on steroids, right? Where all the learning and assessments happening outside of class, but the instructor brings students together to work on their soft skills, their human skills, enrich their experience, but also test what they think they know. So I'm going to give you like, this is great. It looks like you've mastered this. Now I'm going to give you a hypothetical with some real curveballs. How can you apply what you think you know? You know that it's becomes an interesting piece and the assessment itself is interesting because I'm looking, I've been a critical assessment for a long time. I wrote a book in 2021 called Students First talks about how broken assessment was. AI is now fully surfacing the degree to which we have substituted the creation of artifacts of paper, an exam, a quiz as opposed to true learning. So I do think that it's going to force us to think about learning as opposed to, you know, to these sorts of creations of artifacts that you can cram for the exam or get help with your writing. So there's a lot of talk in the discourse now about teaching process versus product, right? And teaching metacognition, helping students think about thinking, right? Like that's where we're trying to get AT. And then how do we? And I think it moves us to what I have long hoped we'd see, which is performance based assessment. It's in a world where it's not what you know, because their AI systems are no more than you. And you can know anything by accessing them. But what can you do with what you know? Yeah. And that's increasingly is going to include managing your AI Co workers, direct reports, subordinates, friends, you know, fill in the blank on how you want to think about this. But yeah, what an interesting, like, what a fascinating new world we're entering into. Speaker 1 Yeah, I love it. I love it. So you know, as you know, we are building a kind of AAI driven MBA that's going to launch it at a pretty large scale here probably in September. And a lot of the instruction is kind of offshore to these really powerful available 24/7 highly personalized adaptive technologies. And every class will still have a human being will validate the grades be available to students. We're working with the Clayton Christiansen Institute to figure out how we build in, as you say, close the laptop time some pro social navigation for these students to make sure that they are interfacing with humans. And so my question here is a selfish one. I I'd love to know if you could. What I'm seeing now is AI as being in many cases bolted on to existing curricula and existing technology. We'll dump a tutor on to this or we'll insert some assignments here or there into the curriculum that already exists and the methodologies that already exist. If you could design for like an AI native program with with like first principles, what would that look like? And what, what are some of the considerations? And again, I'm I am taking notes voraciously here because this is this is our everyday. Speaker 2 Question, I think the big paradigm shift we will now see and it is a massive 1 is that we will move from the one-size-fits-all model of, of of learning that still dominates. It's very much rooted in the industrial age, standardization, scale, efficiency, it's Taylorism. You know, it's all of those things to genuine end of one precision learning. So that 20 students in the same program may master the same 20 outcomes, learning goals, so on, but have 20 different pathways, each of them optimized for the individual. This isn't personalized learning. I would argue personalized learning is population segmentation today, which is we it's it's a halfway step. It's like we're going to put you in a segment of students that have some common traits. Oh, you're military, you're males or names, right? Like we're going to put you in that like group and you will have a better experience as a result. A good thing. But end of one precision learning of Fraser born from Healthcare is the idea of finely tuning your experience. So oh, wait a minute, Brad comes in with a whole bunch of skills. We don't need to put him through all of this knowledge graph. We won't talk about syllabi anymore. We're talking about knowledge graphs, but we're going to be able to start him here. Paul, on the other hand, is an absolute neophyte. We got more ground to cover with him and by the way, but his reading level is much higher and he really can sustain attention. We can get him caught up faster because he'll be able to put in that time. Brad prefers to learn. He's a hands on learner. He's experiential learner. He's going to give him a lot less reading to do and a lot more projects to do, right? Imagine like how all of a sudden your learning experience is singing to you because it just feels like a fine fits suit. You know why? Speaker 1 Plus it is, yeah. Speaker 2 And that begs questions of program design, cuz now all of a sudden those 20 students in class are not having a common experience except for that classroom time. That's where the common experiences can happen and also the institution writ large. So we start to think differently, not only about the roles of faculty. And that's gonna be a hard one. Like I have lots of like, you know, I came up to the faculty and I shared this like, hey, I didn't, I didn't take this job to be a social worker. I don't care about the human relationship stuff like that's why you have extracurriculums. Go figure it out. I, I want to talk about my subject. I'm passionate about it. That may not be the future. I may not, but we, you know, we may transition. See a transition in faculty. And look at the best faculty you and I ever had. We're the ones who connected to us as human beings. They made us feel like we mattered. Yeah. We felt like we felt seen. That gave us their time. Yeah. No, my best teachers were probably great teachers. I frankly don't remember. I'm sure they were. But I do remember how they made me feel. I do remember that they influenced the way I thought about myself in the world. That's the invitation for the future of teaching. Speaker 1 I love it. I love it. I'm absolutely so, so aligned with you. Yeah, the the the bespoke opportunity to have AI kind of drive the learning experience and customize it for the student from the beginning is massive. Speaker 2 And to do so much more holistically, you know, I think we will, you know, we'll be thinking about kind of student knowledge graphs that capture not only what they know in terms of what they're trying to learn, but kind of who they are. Like, how are they in terms of their terms of their Wellness and well-being, their sense of self, their soft skills? And we know, for example, when students are depressed or lonely, they can't learn as effectively, right? So we'll see this integration of supports a more, a whole integrated holistic learning environment, I think is the future. In some ways, it's what the best colleges aspire to be, but almost rarely sort of hit the mark. Paul LeBlanc's Cultural Picks and the Art of Tumultuous Times Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Paul. We're, we're coming to the end here. I end every episode by asking guess what they are reading or what they are watching on Netflix. I'm, I'm sure you're doing an awful lot of professional reading, so feel free to share any of the stand outs there. But also for personal enjoyment. If you've got a great book on your night stand, we'd love to know. Speaker 2 Yeah, so like everybody in the world, I'm watching The Pit, which I think is extraordinarily good and is a kind of biting social commentary these especially this season. So that's that's so joyful watching for reading. I just read an extraordinary novel called We Dreamed of Empires, which is this crazy kind of Vanity Fair meets Cortez retelling of the conquest of Mexico story. Yeah. And it's just incredible, incredible fiction. So I'm in a book club with family and friends. So Ian Mcewan's recent book, which is I had a mixed review in the book club I tend, it was my choice. I really loved it. But it imagines a future of 20302130 looking back at the time in which we live. And so, yeah, there's this just, I feel like, you know, we live in this incredibly tumultuous, crazy time, and that can feel pretty bad. Historically, when we think of those times. There's been an amazing burgeoning of the arts. Speaker 1 Yeah. Speaker 2 And I feel like we're in one of those moments. There's so much good writing, so much good music, so much good television. Look at there's a lot of truth, you know, meh stuff as well. But that was always true. But you know, the Italian Renaissance happened at a time of amazing turmoil, Shakespeare Road at a time of amazing turmoil. And I think in a very stable, stable times, as much as we are for them tending to create less great art. I mean, if the old junkies to be, you know, the suicide 900 years of peace and they've produced the cuckoo clock and Swiss cheese, you're not going to get sort of unhappy notes from our listeners. But but, but I think we're in one of those times where there is this enormous wellspring that comes out of this kind of, you know, the changes we're going through and the unsettledness and the unhappiness. So yeah, it's an incredible time for people who love culture. Speaker 1 It is. And don't forget the Swiss Army knife. You know where would. Speaker 2 We be. Yeah, banking. Don't forget banking. I wrote the wrote the four things. It was great. Speaker 1 Yeah, I love it. And cheese, right? I mean. Speaker 2 They said cheese cuckoo clocks. Speaker 1 These cuckoo clocks, the army knife and banking. There it is, yeah. Speaker 2 The not stand up comedians, there are not many Swiss stand up comedians. Not a funny people,