EdUp Innovation: Episode 17, Dr. Jim DeLung, Dean, Career and Technical Education, Community College of Aurora

Community College of Aurora's Innovative Career & Technical Education College of Aurora. Jim, how are you doing today? Speaker 2 Doing great. Brad, Thanks for having me. And we were talking earlier about how you had my friends Mara and Zach on the podcast. So I'm happy to join the club. It's it's an exclusive club. I'm proud to be a member. Speaker 1 We're happy to have you. Yeah, Mara and Zach, both great connections, both doing incredible work at Boodle Box and Ripen. And I know the work you're doing at Community College of Aurora intersects with both Boodle Box and Ripen. So talk to us a little bit about that work and, and how you got to know them. Speaker 2 Yeah, Yeah. So it's, it's starting in different pockets, right. And then it kind of got to this point where as we're working on some projects with our diesel power mechanics program, we started using Ripen and Bull Box in the same space. And so hang on. Speaker 1 Diesel power mechanics, people don't normally think about diesel power mechanics and AI or work baseline or or innovation at all. I'm I'm picturing like a a guy who's got grease up to his elbow crawling underneath a pickup truck. So paint a different picture like what's going on at CCA and how are you guys leveraging all of these innovative strategies? Speaker 2 Well, now that picture is pretty accurate, right? Like our folks, they're, they're in this program, that's what they're doing. A lot of them, they're either working as diesel techs or they want to work as diesel techs or something. A lot of them haven't gotten to that point in their career yet where they are diesel techs, but they've got pathways that lead to it. And so majority of the students, they are working for one of our industry partners. So they do a two weeks on, two weeks off cohorted approach. They start in the summer and end in the summer, earn their associates degree in one year while they're also working in the field. And so it's, you know, that picture you spoke about, that's a lot of what they do when they're diesel power mechanics courses when they're at work, but like any associate's degree that has Gen. Ed core classes. And so one of those is career math. And that was where we brought in ripen and bull box and said, how can we take career math to the next level, have work based learning, teach AI skills? What does that look like? And, and we did that during a move to a new facility. So not only were we doing this innovative work, but for the longest time our diesel power mechanics program had been housed on our lottery campus. That's over right on the across the Aurora city line over in Denver. Actually, it was on an old Air Force Base that known as the Lowry base, have been converted into a space that was used by multiple Community College entities, including us. And it was an old mechanics building that was used for that program. And so as you might imagine, it was a little outdated, a little antiquated. That's kind of an understatement. Like really, I gotta give a shout out to our department chair, Brian Horbath. And then no one, Jake is faculty for doing the best they could with this old space. We've just moved them into our first new building about 25 years. That's the Center for Applied Science and Technology on our Center Tech campus in Aurora. So. Speaker 1 Yeah, kudos on that, Jim. I know you know, funding for Community College is probably pretty lean in in Colorado. So getting a getting a building built and occupied is, is probably some level of innovation is required just just to accomplish that, right? Speaker 2 It's, it's been an adventure because you know, I mentioned it's been about 1/4 century since we built a new building. We've done, you know, renovations, remodeling, stuff like that. But you mentioned a lean, you know, fiscal setup, harsh fiscal realities. I mean, I've been working in the Colorado Community College system since 2007. I've worked at 4 system colleges. I've worked in IT at the system office, and it's always been that way since I've been here is, you know, there's a lot of fiscal data out there. I'm a big fan of the Association of Community College Trustees. They have a public data dashboard. You can see, you know, not just state allocations for community colleges, but also local allocations because, you know, I've spent part of my childhood in Illinois and Illinois is much bigger than Colorado when it comes to how many community colleges they have the, the population. And, but you can look at their data and say, OK, generally speaking, it's a big state. It's a diverse state. But generally speaking, when it comes to local allocations, they're doing pretty well. State allocations are on the lower end for Colorado. We've been in the lower usually 10 to 20% for the country for both local and state allocations. And so that's nothing new like that's related to statue that's been into practice as long as I've been alive approximately. So I don't, I don't necessarily think it's going to change, but as a result we have to be very innovative and opening up that Castor Center for Applied Science and Technology building was a perfect example of that we. Speaker 1 Yeah, great, great. Yeah. And you moved your diesel program right in there. That's that's awesome. Speaker 2 And really I mentioned Brian, Jake and Noah the day that they started their move. Brian was at the new cast building, Jake and Noah were back at the old facility and the the movie company that we we worked for, that vendor did a great job of taking directions from all three of them and going back and forth between the spaces. We the movement went way quicker than we anticipated so. Speaker 1 Yeah, well, Congrats. Building projects are big. They happen kind of once or twice in a career. And you know, kudos to CCA for for housing the diesel program in a modern facility. Eli's Journey: The Earn & Learn Model in Action I know that you intersected with Zach and Mara at a convening at Harvard University focused on workforce development. And I know you did something very special, which not a lot of my colleagues often have time or ability to do, which is you brought a student to to the conference. I know just, you know, how many conference presentations have all of us and the listeners on the show done, you know, countless. And we talked about how great we're doing, but or what innovative work we're doing. But nothing really speaks to that quite like when it comes out of the mouth of the student, right. So tell us a little bit about that. Speaker 2 Yeah, so Eli is one of our diesel power mechanic students and he joined us. Zach Marr and myself, you know, we were doing a presentation. Eli was on a student panel and you know, I'll I'll never forget as we all walk together over to the Harvard Business School for that that day's. Speaker 1 Events. Speaker 2 You know, you got to take a picture, right? When you're outside Harvard Business School, you got to take a picture together. So that was fun. And, and Eli had never been to Massachusetts before, so, you know, he was sending a lot of pictures to family. Let him know like what he was seeing, what he was doing. So he was just really excited. I think we all kind of fed off of that. But the highlight was definitely on the student panel. Like all the students did an amazing job of speaking towards their experiences, what they've achieved, what their goals are. For Eli specifically, we had, it's funny, 'cause that was the end of October and you know, their program, the DS department mechanics program had moved towards the end of September, middle of September into cast. So he's one of those students who started in the old building, will now finish in the new building and is there in a student panel talking about that and lots of other experiences while it's all pretty fresh. But yeah, he's, he's sponsored is, is a term that's lots of times used by the students who are working in the field by Wagner Equipment. So he's a Wagner Equipment employee who's going through this one year associate's degree program really works for Wagner. They're paying office tools. And so he was able to speak about that learn and earn model in a lived experience way that resonates. I think everybody who was there. So it was for me, you know, I, I get to see it and hear about it all the time. But to see him get up there, talk on a big stage and for. I mean, there was people throughout the rest of the day referencing comments he made. And it was just really exciting to see that. Yeah, it's. Speaker 1 It's great bringing a student to a conference, especially one at Harvard Business School, and a first generation American student who's now getting his education paid for and getting an innovative one year associate's degree. I mean, it sounds like that students really set up for a for a pretty exciting future. Speaker 2 Yeah, that was one of the things that you guys spoke about, right as his family immigrated to the United States from Russia. You know, he completed his his high school experience through an online high school and didn't always feel like learning was relevant to what he was doing. So he spoke about that on the panel about how now not only when he goes to class in art, building the cast, but it feels very relevant, but then when he's at work, he's doing something different every day. Like Wagner Equipment has a lot of different types of facilities. And the area where he works, you never know what's going to come in, what those diesel employees are going to work on. And that's something that he likes about his job, is he always wants to learn something new. So whether it's in the program, the academic program, or at work, he's just constantly learning. And that resonates with him a lot. Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah, Jim. You know, so we're situated in the middle of Silicon Valley here and there's been a lot of tech layoffs or sort of a reduction construction and force for entry level workers due to AIA. Lot of the the typical programming, entry level kind of coding positions at the big tech companies can now be done like the work of 20 people can be done by one person. How AI is Enhancing Trades and Fostering Entrepreneurship What's the story with diesel mechanics, right? Like is this an AI proof industry or how does AI intersect with something more on the traditional kind of nuts and bolts engineering type careers? Speaker 2 You know, that was something the students taught me a lot about was I knew what I'd been hearing about on a broader scale, how AI was affecting the trades. But they were able to tell me like, well, here's what it looks like in my shop or with my company. And, and that was kind of the theme for when I taught that career math course. This is a Dean I don't normally like, that's not part of my workload is being in an instructional position. But our Provost, Doctor Bobby Pace, you know, he makes it a priority to get in the classroom on a regular basis, even though that's not part of his workload. And so that's always, you know, I've seen that thought. If it's been a minute since I've been in the classroom, it's a reminder like I need to get back in. Speaker 1 It's a great way to stay connected, right? You know what's really going on in the classrooms. Speaker 2 Yeah, so. And I feel like every class I always learn more from the students, but especially with this one because there's so much I don't know. You know, I mentioned earlier, I've worked as an IT analyst, like I've got that IT background. I know what that looks like for say, like a career math course, but Diesel, I was constantly asking him like, tell me what those looks like. Like, what do you want to learn? And, and sometimes I'd go into a week with an idea of what I kind of wanted it to look like. And we'd have to, we'd have to shift directions very quickly. And students like Eli, fortunately practice a lot of patience with me. But I think for the trades, I think that those students were here right now, they'd probably say like, we're not, you know, a lot of what you read, we're not there yet, but you can see packets of it. So when it comes to inventory, that's something let them see is like creating efficiencies with where they can say like, OK, we need this very specific part for this very specific piece of heavy machinery like where are the locations, what does the pricing look like? What does the timeline look like that those efficiencies are happening in areas like not across the board, but in pockets. So I think that's similar to some sectors and that the implementation might be really quick here, but it hasn't even happened yet over here. Then what I tried to to pass on to them that maybe they weren't necessarily seeing right now in their their work environment, but hopefully we'll see soon, is that there's a lot of motivation in the trades to take away what comes with high risk. So especially with heavy machinery, you know, if you're doing work in the field, like a lot of these students want to eventually not only be diesel tax, but be field tax because they do exciting work, but they also earn a lot more money because they'll go out in the field. But risk comes with that. So if you're moving heavy parts out in the field, not in a controlled environment like a shop, things can go wrong. So if you can have some sort of tech assistance, whether it's through robotics or wearable devices, that takes away some of that risk and makes the job easier for the tech or whoever's work doing the work Like that's, that's a huge benefit to the company and the employee. And so we're starting to see that in pockets. But a lot of those students, they haven't necessarily seen that yet in their jobs, but hopefully they will soon. And, and hopefully that's something that not only do we continue to see across the trades, but in other areas. Speaker 1 Yeah, what about the what about the other trades? I know, you know, like again with AI, people are saying, you know, if you have a high school age kid, encourage them to be a plumber or a welder or you know, diesel tech, refrigerator repair, These are jobs that are roofing, you know, relatively AI proof. Perhaps you're pointing to examples where they're AI enhanced or AI supported. But do you foresee a future where those kind of the the typical trades that we all know and need, where those are ever replaced by machines? Speaker 2 I think that definitely there will be some parts that are replaced by machines, but what's exciting is how AI can help those, especially the newer professionals start to think about what does it look like to have my own company. So one example, and this kind of leads into what Zach and I worked on with Boodle Box. Some of the the more popular part like there was there's some parts AI that weren't popular with those diesel power mechanics students. But one thing that got a lot of positive feedback was a tutor bot that Zach and I developed using Boodle Box where they could not only bring into say like a fractions problem that they're working on, but then they could also bring into like a personal finance activity that we did. So it was flexible and that could be used in multiple spaces. And I often, you know, I am a dad. That's part of who my identity, who I am. So I did feel like I was wearing the dad hat a lot talking about personal finance in that class because they a lot of students are young, they're in their 20s. They're not necessarily too interested in like 4 O 1K plans right now, but we tried to make that a priority in career math as well. But going further with that, like if you go down the hall in that cast building further from diesel power mechanics is where we have a lot of construction programming, specifically where we partner with the Build Strong Academy that does nonprofit training usually in about 5 to 6 weeks. Windows at this point in time where they say, if you've never worked in construction, how can we take you from where you're at and get you ready for an entry level job within that five to six week period and placed in a job where you've got the equipment you need, the safety training, you need the skills to get started. And we've seen graduates of that program not only go on to start their own business, but then come back to CCA to earn, say like a Superintendent or estimating cert stacked out within an associate of applied science and construction management, but allow them become small business owners. And that's where I think AI gets really exciting is we can take a bot like what Zach and I developed and say, OK, how can this help you do all the small business management stuff that maybe prevented so many people, so many entrepreneurs in the past from taking that leap and saying, OK, I'm going to do this work in the trades, but I'm not quite ready to start my own business yet. Like now that can happen quicker. So will there be some jobs replaced? Yes, of course. But there's going to be opportunities that didn't exist in the past that are much more achievable now, which I think is, you know, sometimes the the thought of that can be overwhelming for a lot of students. And so I think that's something we're trying to normalize is like, look, this is an exciting time to be alive, right? And you're going to have opportunities that you know people before you didn't have. Speaker 1 Yeah, I love the way you're reframing AI, right. Like it's not taking jobs, it's opening doors, it's creating opportunities. It's it's allowing you to be more entrepreneurial than 10 years ago before AI was freely available. If you were a diesel mechanic, you'd be working for somebody your whole career. But now if you really learn how to partner with AI and harness it, you can, you can be in business for yourself. It can be your marketing department. It can be, it can keep your books for you. It can help you hire you know it's a thought partner. Speaker 2 And, and sometimes it can be a pathway to management. So we had we would have classes, you know, in when we talk about personal finance and that career math course and say like, OK, like, what else could this be helpful for? I'd say, what do you see happen to the folks who are say they're working as a field diesel tech and they get to a point where like, you know what, being in the field is not realistic anymore. Maybe I have a family and I don't want to be stuck out on the road for multiple nights because this project demands it. And they'd say, well, a lot of those folks eventually, you know, make their way into management. And so we talked about, OK, how can AI help you? You're not leaving your company. You're not starting your own small business, but you're going to have to lean in on new skills to be a successful manager. And they, they could look at people who worked in for their company doing that work and think about, oh, here's maybe how AI could help them in a way that they haven't done yet. And then maybe eventually that person too finds themselves and that student finds themselves in a management position down the road. And that seeds hopefully already been planted. Integrating AI Across the National CTE Landscape So. Speaker 1 Yeah, I love it. So nationally, he's kind of zooming out to CTE at the national level. Do you see a lot of other Deans or, you know, directors of programs like diesel, like construction management that are leaning into AI as much as you are? And CCA like I, you know, again, I'm sitting in the ivory tower somewhat. And so I have this image like when you hear a career in technical education, like I am transported back to high school shop where, you know, we're, we're in like metal shop, wood shop, machine shop. And, you know, they are the furthest thing from like the high tech use of, of AI as imaginable. And that's just a function of my old age, you know, I'll admit it. But how far leaning do you think the sector is nationally on in terms of embracing AI, arming students to use AI and get out and have like really successful careers where they're partnering with AI? Speaker 2 That's a loaded question, Brad. Yeah, I don't care what you say about your age, that you're a great podcast hoster and that that's a great question. I'm gonna have to work through that one a little bit here. Speaker 1 We can add it in post so it's safe man. Just give us the unfiltered reaction and we'll we'll fix it later. Speaker 2 Well, I think it, it, it varies so much from not only one college to another, but from one region to another for various reasons. Like I, I've mentioned how lean the community colleges in Colorado are. And because of that, like you can't just do what's practice in a lot of other states. It's not fiscally sustainable. And so that forces you to be innovative in ways that maybe you otherwise wouldn't do. And then, but that leads to opportunity to say like, OK, well, what could this look like somewhere else? And, and you have to start to learn about things like, OK, well, what can you do with AI? And so as I've talked with some folks from other states say they have more resources than we do in Colorado. They get to focus on more of like a different level with their programs. They can get in the weeds operationally, maybe a little bit more. And they can look and say, like, OK, we've had this HVAC program for years, but maybe they're in a state where data centers are starting to be a real thing. Because there's one of the things I learned was trying to wrap my head around, like, not just how to teach AI skills to students, but what is the infrastructure that makes all this possible? And there's some amazing podcasts out there about, you know, what that infrastructure actually looks like, which some people might hear that and think, oh, that sounds incredibly boring. OK, it can be a little bit dry. But you start to realize that as you learn that story, there's a history there of how innovative technologies have maybe taken away some jobs. But on a larger scale, it's actually created more jobs, It's created more economic development, but it's all possible because of certain infrastructure development. So like, you know, for me, I've, I've been telling as many people as I can about the Step Change podcast, specifically their episode, I think it's called the hidden backbone of our modern world. And that's all just on how did data centers come to be? And it goes all the way back to the earliest times of IBM processing essentially paper forms and how a closet full of paper forms could represent the earliest version of a data center. And I, I think that's an important history to know. It's an important story to know. It helps us frame this like, OK, if I'm going to use AI for my jobs, when I teach AI skills to students, like you want to have a, a bigger picture of what are your students are usually going to ask, like what are the problematic components of those? They want to talk about that too. So I think that goes along with whether you're teaching, whether you're a Dean who's going to tell people like, hey, let's start using a on these spaces. Like you kind of got to know all the context. So no matter where people are in their journey with this, there's some really helpful starting points. Could be like listening to a podcast, could be reading a book like Ethan Malik's Co intelligence. We did that not this past fall, but the fall before. That's the fall 24. We had a collection of department chairs, Deans, and faculty instructors who did a group read on Ethan Malik's book. And that really helped frame like, OK, we, we've done departmental policies, we've done best practices, We've started to practice some assignments in classrooms. But like, how? How can we be intentional and strategic about what we're doing with AI going forward? Speaker 1 And I love that. I love group reads, too. Yeah, that's great. I've had Carolyn Stern on the podcast. That was a group read we did at a former institution. And here sitting on my desk, is this Becoming a Student ready College book by Tia, Tia Brown McNair and and colleagues. And I'm debriefing this with the entire university tomorrow. So yeah, it's on the desk. I've read it a couple of times. It's really shout out to Tia Brown McNair. This book is right in line with with I think some of the conversations we're having, Jim. It talks about, you know, faculty historically are complaining that students are coming and they're not college ready. They don't know math, they don't know how to write, they don't know how to study, they don't know how to time management. They and rarely are faculty asking like what have we done to become a student ready college, right? Like what responsibility does the institution have once we accept the student to kind of shift the deficit mindset of what students are coming in without to what can we bolster students with so that they're successful? So, you know, I, we do a lot of this work at, at SFBU. I'm sure, you know, in the Community College space throughout your career in Colorado and specifically at CCA. This is a very poignant topic for for the work you guys are doing. Speaker 2 I think you just added a book to my reading list. Speaker 1 Oh yeah, good. Yeah, I highly, highly recommend it. It's it's great. It's a great common read Co intelligence also, you know, an awesome book. And I I love how how forward leaning your leadership and the leadership at at CCA is, you know, and even with kind of insufficient funding, you are scrappy. You are developing partnerships with folks like Wagner, you know, and like work to learn partnerships and the work with with Zach and Mara at Ripen and Poodle Box. You know, you are you are piercing together a 21st century education for these students in a really innovative way. So Congrats to you, your colleagues, the great work you're doing at CCA. I think it's a model nationally to look at for career and technical education, you know, arming students with career ready, durable skills that they can go out, they can they can watch themselves without a ton of debt in a in a career that probably will never go away. You know, I can't imagine it ever going away. So kudos to you. Reading, Leadership, and Terminator Talk I end every episode, Jim, by asking folks what they're reading. So I know this will be on your night stand eventually. And you've read Co intelligence. What are you currently reading that you want to share with the listenership? Speaker 2 I know you know, I mentioned as we were talking earlier that sometimes I don't get to read as much as I want. I rely on podcasts like yours the. Speaker 1 Yeah. Thank you. Speaker 2 And thank you for the kind words earlier. I've got to, you know, say that none of that what you just described as possible without it starting at the top. So our president, Doctor Mordecai Brownlee, he has a great podcast. So that's and he's you gotta be careful with asking Mordecai about books to read because he always has like a list ready to go. Yeah, he's he and our Provost, Doctor Bobby Pace, are their their reading is impressive. I just. Speaker 1 This is the job as a Provost is to know, you know, to, to know what's out there and to encourage others, right? Speaker 2 Yeah, you and Mordecai have very similar bookshelves. Like I just, I like to take that time to really, like, sit with a book and take my time. But, you know, we're all of us. We're in these leadership positions. Like we don't. That's the thing. We're running. Yeah. Speaker 1 We're running. Speaker 2 Yeah, there's only so much of it, but I was reading quite a bit of stuff related to work and I was like, I gotta, I gotta get just a novel going on here that yeah, yeah, is outside of my, my, my kind of like normal area. And I was talking to some Co workers about it and eventually one of them loaned me Snow Crash, which is like a a sci-fi novel there. There's some like I'm just getting started, but there there's some kind of like problematic futuristic layers there that I'm starting to see. And so there is still some relevance to, to AI in the world that we currently live in, But it is, it's definitely very difficult. But I've I've normally been reading and, but I'm, I'm never too far away from something that is not a novel. That's something that's just going to be a more. Speaker 1 Professional reading. Yeah. Yeah. Snow Crash. All right, I wrote that down. I'm going to add it to the list. I was talking with a colleague here the other day about the Terminator movies. Speaker 2 Oh, OK. Speaker 1 And you know, James Cameron in the 1980s predicted all of this, right? Like he really some some of the work that is in Terminator and some of the underlying assumptions about machine learning. It's scary to think too much about it, right? Like, you know, and whenever I see those robots that are humanoid, that can like jump, jump over desks and whatever, all I can picture is that thing with a machine gun in its hand and China, China doing this at scale. And then and then the James Cameron, you know, movies come, come flashing back and I'm down a terrible rabbit hole. Speaker 2 So well, and that's, you know, that's a great reference point for some good one liners. You can drop one if you're ever in those like awkward conversations about AI and you need to just break it up a little bit. A good Terminator line can kind of help with that. So great. Speaker 1 Yeah, I'll be back. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome, Jim. Totally appreciate you and the great work you're doing at CCA. Certainly a national model. When this comes out, we'll tag everybody that you mentioned in this episode on LinkedIn and so and we'll we'll share it broadly. We appreciate you. Thanks for the amazing conversation.