Editors on Editing w/ “ IT: Welcome to Derry” Editors: Glenn Garland, Mathew V. Colonna & Esther Sokolow

Listener should be aware there may be spoilers. We'll have another We have 25 disappearances Seven confirmed deaths Mostly children Something bad is coming What is that Welcome to editors on editing the podcast in collaboration with American cinema editors and provodio coalition I'm Glenn Garland. I'm speaking with my amazing co-editors to discuss the hit series it Welcome to dairy they're truly amazing friends and I loved working with them I'm joined by Matthew Colona who's credits include Dexter for which he was nominated for a primetime Emmy parenthood snowfall Narcos lock and key raising Dion the old man and sugar as well as Esther Sokolow who assisted on rampage It chapter two and the guilty and was the additional editor on the flash my own credits include the devil's rejects King of California Banshee Rob zombies Halloween the Lords of Salem the vampire diaries stand against evil preacher the turning broke and poker face Matt Esther it's such a pleasure to have you. I just loved working with you on welcome to dairy It was an amazing experience you two are the best and I'm just so excited to be with you guys Lackos right back at you. This was the dream team. It's pretty amazing You know you look back on shows and you're like oh that was a great career This experience was unlike any other and we sort of created a family which was totally unique I feel like then pretty much anything else that worked on and we were on it for a very long time because of the straight. I don't know if we want to say how long it was but it was long I Think we do want to say how long it was it was 27 years It was pretty much But I'm sure I have a very important question ask you. Yeah, how do you concentrate when your editing room is right next to Matt and he starts laughing I have to say the very First day I realized two things I had a problem and I was gonna have the time of my life So I went to my amazing assistant Jamie. I went you hear in this and then I went to Sarah and said Can we do something about the laws all the sound proofing now makes more so now makes a lot of Because there was no way that we were gonna separate we just had to add a little sound baffling put some distance Sonically between us for those lists. I loved it. Just so you know Matt has the most infectious awesome laugh. I got a big mouth you could say The best laugh ever and you could be editing Probably in another building and here Matt's laugh. It's great Esther you made the transition from Assistant to additional editor and then to editor on this and That's a hard thing for assistance to navigate. Can you tell me how you went about it? And if you have any advice on how to make that transition Truly, it's such a testament to Andy and Barbara Mascatti because on each job that I have done with them They've continuously moved me up creatively given me more creative autonomy And those opportunities don't always happen my path has absolutely been Unconventional and abnormal and it's because of who they are as people and because they've valued Creative input from every level so in terms of advice I feel like my best advice really is to say that it's relationships. I Just want to work on good projects with good people tell exciting stories that are gonna move audiences and so those goal posts for me are about doing my best and most earnest work every single day and then that Was rewarded by giving me a greater creative opportunity Do you feel that it was because of Mascatti's being so loyal and open or do you think that there is something that Assistance can do to help put themselves into a position where they're recognized because you don't want to be antagonizing the editor by pushing yourself too much But you also want to be a spokesperson for yourself and Make sure that people understand that you want to edit. That's a really good question So I very much was not saying it. I was not aggressive about it It's always been the guiding principle in my career of that aspiration, but I was happy to put the time in and work on the projects I've been fortunate gone, but I was always eager to offer up creative contributions when it was appropriate so on get chapter two there was an opportunity for an internal sizzle reel that Barbara requested and the turnaround was incredibly tight on it It was about a week that it needed to be pulled together and I Sliped the cutting room basics pulled it off and it was Really well received by new line. I think Barbara seeing how important I understood They asked to be and how much of myself I put in really endeared myself to her I mean every opportunity as an assistant affords creative contribution So I wasn't going to Jason Valentine give me scenes. I'm hung really give me opportunities But I was always doing sound work for him. I was doing music work I would sit and watch cuts with him and just discuss creatively what he was working towards He was incredibly complimentary of my work, but I would compliment him in term like I would tell him like oh my gosh I was so scared that moment really resonated so you start having these dialogues where people can Understand your eye and then on the flash I started as the first assistant editor on it But again, there was an opportunity where Barbara and Andy were releasing the first teaser trailer through DC fandom and that ended up being A co-edit with Buddha Jones and so those opportunities come in the course of leaning in and giving 110% to the job every single day I'm not somebody who Approaches it where I need to be Aggressive, I think when the doors are meant to open the doors will open I had a dream as a child to be here And I had no connections and and I'm still young like I hope to have a really long Exciting career for people listening just so you know esters 62 I'm good for my age and subtract 30 years for that But I love how you say that you took the initiative to cut those sizzles because I feel like those are the types of things where You're working already very hard as an assistant, but then you do these extra things That help you stand out and do something that's scary. That's a lot of hard work But also gives you those opportunities I think you want to advocate through the work because I remember cutting a recap for my editor Rob Sighten Lance and it was for Tom Shlama. He was our directing exec and after we played it Tommy looked at me and he's like you cut this And like in that moment I was like I'm getting acknowledge me the rest of it is not verbal But I sort of felt oh something organic just happened in the room. They're like okay the scored points Yeah, and I think that those people take note of that and go okay definitely Matt has skills I also feel that if you can work with an editor Who is a champion for you? I know that on welcome to dairy You championed grant so that he was able to get a co-editing credit on an episode and if you've got a generous Editor like that's huge hopefully that editor understands I Want to keep this amazing relationship going but I also have to Helped shepherd this person to be the next generation of editor and if I lose him as my assistant We're still going to be really great buds and it's going to Be fruitful in the future. I feel like it's a mutually beneficial process because Prior to working with Grant. I was working with Alexa Seymour. She's retired. She's amazing I've got paired up with her season one in Arcos And she was just someone who had at least a decades experience more than me. So I'm marveling at her credit So I just randomly walking to room one day, you know, I like oh hey, Alexa's this kind of a smaller scene you want to cut it And she turns around she's like No one's ever asked me to cut anything ever. I know it was pretty astounding So it glued me in a little bit too advocating and whatnot I knew Grant as our PA on Narcos season one which is Indicative and how these relationships work and how you link back up with people that was like here Grant address these notes or do what they're asking for over the scene or whatever and it was kind of seen that I just didn't even want to look at anymore And as soon as he brought it back to me my first thought was like oh my god This kid's gonna save me so much time because particularly when you're working on shows that are There's a lot of VFX involved, you know, I'm experienced this tons on Welcome to Dare, you know, whereas the Temping of a lot of these visual sequences It eats into your creative time because you're constructing the means of how this is all going to function And then I feel like once you get that down, you know, you could be a little more creative with it So so I have someone step into my life who is Good in terms of identifying the story beats and cutting around that then I'm like this person Knows what they're doing and I think from then on you start discussing the psychology of the scenes or like expand into a dialogue Editorially that's how do we elevate all this you identify the strengths of the weaknesses and what this is supposed to be It's a higher level discussion. I feel like editorially it was easy after a while because the quality work grant was doing and The insight he would bring to the scenes and just the episodes we were working on it was it was just undeniable So after a while I felt morally obligated because I can't look at the work and say oh, I did it all because I didn't It just goes to show how incredible the relationship between editor and assistant editor is I mean I wouldn't have been lost without Janie Gatti my assistant She and I watched every single cut together how to make it better how to keep on iterating and evolving And I think that's one of the things that's so Beautiful about the editing process is that you don't just cut something one way and then call it done You're always looking at it and seeing is there something more in the footage that speaking to me and often times Janie and I would be watching it and I'd be going like I know that there's something more here and I can't see it And she would come up with these incredible ideas and it just it's so nice to Have those sounding boards and I'm really thinking creatively in an allyship with you. She just Really enrich the work Yeah, I feel that Greg London was the same sort of relationship. I've worked with Greg for many years He is very good at looking at it Carefully and seeing what's working seeing what's not working Sometimes you get notes that I like that could be a little trim down those don't help me as much as Pinpointing what's not working and Greg was really Excellent about that. No, in Greg. It's his honesty really resonates because what that's really what you want to have in those intimate moments Where you're just you and your assistant the room like you got to have really honest discussions about what's in the dailies And what kind of notes you're getting it could be the difference between like a very hectic and stressful job And something that's not going to be so bad. That's amazing Matt Yes, you have a musical background. Yep. You were in bands. You were the drummer and Editing is very musical definitely you have to understand pace and rhythm How has your musical background influenced your editing and how has it helped make you a better editor? It's probably the single thing that steered me into editorial. I went to film school with this Desire to be a DP, but I was always being driven by music. So you know, I was going to film school I was playing gigs locally with my band. I was in like two or three bands at one point black eyed piece I was the drummer from black eyed piece. Yes, I need to say that's objectively incredibly cool. It's impressive Yeah, it's something that definitely struck me when I was at loyal when it came time to post having been in recording studios recording on timelines to be a pro tools or kick walk or whatever I also had a technical background because I was working for a small computer company out here building PCs from ground up and helping these texts install local area networks Il offerings and stuff like that and my dad's electronic engineers. So Ironically all that came together and it's horribly because as soon as it came time to like Post or work on a mix that part of the process was almost second nature and that was definitely attributed to the time I'd spent recording and jamming and even like having arguments with my engineer father Because engineering is definitely part of post production So as soon as I got in a position where I was assisting particularly my buddy Rob side glance All the added work I was doing for him in terms of sound design and temp scoring And when I was assisting him on vexter at one point he just walked in my room and I was like what's going on? He's like dude the student has surpassed the master and I was like oh Thanks, I'm like I think you're going to tell me there's something wrong Yeah, so that always kind of Cravelled me into Focusing more on the picture side because truthfully I was Ignoring about the visual storytelling part of it a lot of it. I was relying on instinct and a lot of my early gigs and even like come up And was because I was associated with music and people are like always great with music You know and even in terms of when I was cutting the music I think people were responding because I was cutting to the storytell was always Mindful of where it needed to start and what the tone needed to be and all those things contribute to the storytelling, you know, so Matt it was so Amazing talking about music. I can't help but think about the sequence in episode six that originally lived in episode seven That you had done the most magnificent job on when I'm rich is drumming and I would love to hear how you went about constructing that scene And then of course then we can talk about why it creatively and emotionally migrated Andy shot that amazing wonder that took us into the room and you found your way to the drum kit and Being more or less of a lifelong drummer. I mean I've started when I was like 12 13 So yeah, and the premise is you know one of our kid stars is a drummer in the show So I was loving it because I'm like not always just kid playing drums in the show But he's got to have the solo and I was tickled pink. We all have different passions in our life So like what is presented to you in your daily's been you're like oh my god like this is great You know, and it's a thing that a lot of people say in terms of biopics I feel like they have the greatest challenge because you have to portray someone's Music ability along with their life So I want to make sure like the syncopations there and all the hits are correct and then on top of that just editorially I wanted to Syncopate the edits more because the places jump in at once time the good times So I really wanted the spinning of the dancers dresses, you know And the flips that they were doing all that was rhythmic and visually interesting Rarely do I sit hard-legged rules in my head, but I felt like for that one I want to be very specific about what I'm doing here and extremely intentional because Yeah, I just wanted that part of my life experience to be represented in the cut Did you feel like oh, I better keep it as a one or because Andy shot it this way or did you feel like you know what It's great as a one or but I can make it even more exciting That's where I've gotten into trouble in the past because when you see intentional things and daily And you as an editor go I'm not gonna do that You see a big chance and I've been the recipient of good and bad reactions because of that then I Had cut anything to Andy Shaw, but no the one or was the way to definitely get into the scene I mean at some point it had to segue to a more syncopated sequence just because Rich is getting into his solo and I felt like it was Not that it would have been underwhelming, but I felt like having to edit there to really like Bruce up the reactions from the crowd within the room and the other musicians because it that's one thing that I feel like Was similar to being on a stage and like looking over and seeing the bass player like give you the thumbs up because you did something cool You try to pack all those little moments and experiences in that scene and I knew I or listed the right thing because when we set it back I'd never heard from anyone so I was like oh good no one's got a problem with it Yes, well, it um one of the discoveries that we had in episode six was Theematically that episode the children are all fractured But then there's this moment where the kids come together and have one Last moment of joy and really like childhood innocence and Of course episode seven gets into the like horror destruction of the black spot and because emotionally episode six wanted some catharsis of living in that moment of true joy We realized maybe it would be better to migrate that sequence into episode six and live emotionally with the rich and marges love story But like childhood connection between the two of them and then when Andy and I were working on that sequence Again, like didn't touch any of the drumming it was mass-fold or there was nothing to do there But rhythmically in how it existed in episode six is pacing it was at that point that Andy realized Kill your darlings. Let's cut into the water And so instead of wrapping around that table we Return to the water when uh skirts washes past Just because when a sequence like that migrates into another episode the rhythm not just a sequence in isolation But the episode as a whole needs to be taken into consideration So it required a different entry and pacing it up And I personally feel that it wouldn't have been as cool as effective Without Andy because Andy's a musical person And I feel like that whole concept was because of me having that get written into the show. And Andy makes you feel safe. He is not judging you taking these big swings. He wants you to try things. He has very strong opinions, but he wants to see your interpretation. And if it works, it works. He's not one of these people who doesn't want you to have a voice. And I think that that's huge because he does give you that safety. Words can't do justice for what a magnificent collaborator and director he is. There's such safety in the cutting room to explore. It doesn't feel like work. It's just joy. It's pretty incredible. It's not just like Andy and the editors are crafting. Everyone in the room is invited to share that same level of collaboration. He really recognizes that good ideas can come from anywhere. And what a special experience to work on something where you know that every single person's presence on the project made it better. And I had to be getting a coffee in the kitchen and you'd hear him talking through a sequence with Veronica or Denora, our coordinator in post-PA. And they'd be saying something. And they'd be like, "Oh, that's a really good idea." It just makes it really fun to want to show up every day and craft in that environment. And he's so funny. And he is. Also, we'd come up with these different ideas and then he turned to Greg and he go, "Greg." Because Greg felt I don't want to step on anyone's toes. But then he would bring Greg into the discussion all the time. And then Greg had fantastic ideas and really elevated it. It's best idea wins. Yeah, absolutely. If I could use this opportunity to segue to your work on the finale, you had that crazy sequence in episode four, right? But the finale to me is along with the pilot. I feel like those are our two jewels of the season. Thank you. And you screen time wise had the most in terms of Pennywise. And you know, Andy's worked with that character for so long, knows him inside and out. And you've worked on so many projects that have antagonists or kind of similar, but Pennywise is so specific and unique. And there's a couple scenes in particular, like the one inside the trailer when Halorin goes inside his head. Such a good sequence. I fucking love that. I came into this show not really knowing much about it or scars guard. And I could live in that scene for like six hours. I remember looking at that in your room and walking out with Grant. And I'm like, that was, I was always just amazed. I'm like, wow, it's really going to be like that grand because we're great as an industry about getting you hooked and getting you in. I feel like so many times we fail in closure or endings in general, but seeing that finale, I was just like, oh my god, this is just like a classic ending. So talk about that, Glenn. Can you expand on that a little bit? I will say that that scene felt like the end of a huge blockbuster movie. Andy, shot and shot, it was so special to Andy. I had my assistant Greg find out how much footage was in there. The climax is basically 25 minutes of screen time and Andy shot 50 hours and 35 minutes. Oh my gosh. Wow. Well, one of the things about the series that could be frustrating, but I think is going to be its strength ultimately is that we hold back from showing Pennywise. We really stretch that we have Pennywise manifesting in other ways, but we don't actually see the dancing clown. Right. The dancing clown is what we've been waiting for and we see him in some of these other episodes before the climax, but this is where he really shines. And his reveal coming out of the bloody wagon and you are like, oh shit. It's not. It's that ocean of like here we go. And then we go to the end of the series. you're sitting there going like, "Yes!" as soon as you see who was responsible for the previous episode's tragedy. But that's the genius of the show. And we need to be invested in these other stories and these other people because it's going to add to the tragedy. I don't have like a ton of experience in this genre. I felt like this was the episode where I was actually drawing more from my experience just doing drama. Because so often you get to know like, "Oh, we were gonna be in this person's POV." And that could be extremely abstract sometimes, particularly when you don't have POV shots. And I think what they're asking is they want to feel the same way this character's feeling in that scene. And that's what Grant and I we were leaning into. Because I feel a lot of times on series that want to pace you through things. And it was just like, "No, this isn't going to be very effective if we're just pacing stuff." But it is a tough thing because you want to embrace all these horrific emotions. So to a certain extent you kind of need to go there. You need to know what it's like to be stuck in that box to a certain extent or at least how it's going to play psychologically. People have fears of claustrophobia or fears of fire. And you're going to be pulling on those emotions to make this as tragic and as effective as possible. Yeah totally. Yeah well I will say that the complicated thing about that scene is that you've got lots of different characters in a very tight confined space that are separated by smoke and a fire. And you've got to play up all these storylines enough to really care. And so juggling that is complicated. The one thing that I was definitely embracing more and it's the sequence in the car from the pilot or marge his eyes. A lot of times like I said you paste things up or you styleize stuff or whatever. But it's getting to that point where I can't look at this anymore. Nope we're going to keep going. That was definitely something, "Oh I need to embrace this more and really lean into these moments." Because that's what largely the black spot was affording me or it's just like "Oh no, we're not cutting away, we're living here" until it's brutal end. Yeah and you say you haven't cut a lot of the horror genre but I've cut comedy, I've cut action, I've cut drama and I've cut horror and it's all about making the scene as real as possible, making you feel like you're there, putting the audience into those people's shoes and really feeling the emotion. It's like that with any genre. The horror genre has its special jump scares but it's very similar to all those other genres and I think that sometimes it doesn't get it's due because people go "Well it's horror, no it's drama, it's comedy, it's action, it's suspense, it's all those things." Definitely is. One of the scenes that I think just so encapsulates that is the opening and Esther, that is such a, I'm gonna say it. That's such a fucking amazing way to start a series. It was just fabulous and I think one of the things that was so special about that scene is how it keeps elevating because they have the spelling game and that spelling game just keeps getting more and more intense and the rhythm and how you sped that up, you also do the same thing when they're playing this paddy cake game later. Those two scenes are just brilliant and I'd love you to talk about them. I really appreciate those kind words and I also, you know, when you were talking about horror and what it represents, it is a horror show. But I don't think of the work as horror. I think of the work as empathy and to be effective, you have to care for the people that you're watching. Absolutely. And so my goal in editing as all of ours is is to make us care about the characters first. I think that's one of the things that is so powerful and resonant about Stephen King's book is that it is about children. Children by the nature are innocent and they don't know that they've put themselves in dangerous situations. And so. Obviously, Esther's never had children. (laughter) They're innocent, I tell you. Just kidding. I love it and adore my daughter. (laughter) What an Andy understands all of these textures and so when you meet Maddie for the first time, he made all these really smart character choices to immediately tell you what you need to know about this character. You see him alone in the theater, he's sucking on a pacifier. He spars to old to be sucking on a pacifier. So this is a kid who doesn't receive enough attention at home. He has this black eye. He's running away from home in the middle of the night and snowy winterly. All of those things tell you who this kid is and it makes you feel for him. And then you meet the family and obviously the show being welcome to Andy and I were acutely aware in the cutting pattern of the show that there would be no way to truly put the audience at ease. But we played a lot with the reactions of the mom and the dad and really leaning into their looks of like, "Oh, that's poor kid." And then we wanted the music on the radio to do that lowing and then that rhythm allowed us to amplify and there was this natural cadence to the spelling that then amplifies again with the OUTs. And so when we got to the OUT section, I actually cut that as a soundbed first. So I only looked at how I wanted rhythmically the OUTs to progress. And I didn't want to loop them. I wanted them to be individual words that built in escalating tension. And it was only after I built the soundbed for that that then I put the picture in and so, "Okay, who do I want to be wearing which angle of the car and Andy shoots?" Magnificent amount of coverage. So there's a wealth of options. And then with the clapping sequence in the cafeteria, that was actually a discovery in the edit. That wasn't how the sequence was initially shot. Andy is Argentinian. So he didn't grow up knowing about the patty cake clapping game. That clapping was something that the kids brought to him in the rehearsal process. So he was shooting with the kids. He let them run rampant with that performance and dialed in this incredible manic hysteria from all the kids. But it wasn't ever scripted to be that inner cut. So then when Janie and I were watching the cuts back and trying to find new ways to elevate the editorial rhythm to match the performances that we'd received, it was Janie's idea to actually use the clapping as the rhythmic device for the sequence. It was one of those mind-blown, it was such a great idea. I was like, "I would love to see how you would see that sequence conceived, she cut this beautiful version of it." And then I took it and iterated it. We presented it to Andy and it locked. Like I don't think they've changed. (laughter) It's kind of remarkable that it was a discovery. There, yeah. Glenn, talking about characters you have empathy with and also the characters we don't have empathy with for a period of the show. One of the things that I love about how you cut Marge, you know, for the first few episodes, there's a degree of empathy for her. But it's also March, what are you doing? Don't be friends with these girls. So you know how to actually just really fascinating challenge with Marge Eyes where how to hinge a character that maybe you aren't always sympathetic with to suddenly living in one of the most horrific things that you could experience. I would love to know how you went about constructing Marge Eyes. I feel that the scene with Lily in the cafeteria is the key to really making Marge Eyes work. Marge has been put up to do something that she doesn't want to do. But in order to stay good with the patty cakes, she has to. Oh, yeah. So you really have to see in her face all these different emotions of I'm going to push Lily to get embarrassed by this boy. But it really pains me. I really don't want to do this. That guilt has to be the eyes manifest. And so if we really land the guilt in the bathroom and in the cafeteria, then the Marge Eyes isn't just about a cool visual effect. It's about being tortured for doing something that you shouldn't have done. And your interior hate is being manifest in these googly eyes. And then that whole sequence, you just want to make it as crazy and as intense as possible. That scene used to be even crazier. Unfortunately, I'm not sure if I'm right. Unfortunately, budgetarily, we couldn't do as much as we wanted to. We had these birds attacking Marge's eyes, trying to pull them out of their sockets. It was really insane. And after she's tried to shear them off with a chisel, you want to clock the saw. And then when you clock the saw, oh no. - No. - Or you know. - You'll go there. And so you want to try to stretch that out as much as possible, and make it as difficult for her to turn on that saw and put her eyes into that saw as possible. - Absolutely, no. - And then you assume there's no way they're going to show. (laughs) Andrew did a fantastic job directing that scene. - Yeah. - And then the fact that after all that, she grabs the chisel again. (laughs) And Lily has to claw it away from her. The scene just keeps elevating. And the trick with some of these scenes is, it has to keep escalating. And because budgetarily we couldn't afford those birds, the one good thing about that was that the birds was a big highlight. But you want to keep taking it to the next level. You want a laddering. It just has to get more and more intense. And taking out the birds gave it more of a ladder. And so that was the key with that scene. - That's amazing. It's so beautifully disgusting. And then the season is full of so many favorite cuts, but Glenn the cut to the tomato. (laughs) I'm obsessed with that cut. (claps) Like that couldn't be a squishier tomato. (laughs) - I love that cut too. I don't know if I can take credit for it because it was beautifully directed by Andrew. And I said, how did you get that tomato to do that? And he said, they actually inject it. They took a syringe and injected it with fluid. (claps) (claps) - And so, by injecting that tomato, it squirted like that. (claps) - A nice big eyeball. - I love that. - You. (laughs) - The opening to three is amazing. - Yeah, yeah. - You've got the carnival, all the tension of this kid with all the freaks. And then you see the skeleton man. - Yeah. - And then he manifests later. And the cuts of that boy running through the woods and being chased. Can you talk to me about that sequence? - I was the recipient of two episodes that started off in flashbacks. So in three, I feel like this is the first time that's ever established in the series where we don't know who the little kid is at first, and then him casting himself is one of the key figures in that world. It was awesome because-- - It's so good. - When you say he, you mean Andy. - Andy, yeah, yeah. My first introduction to Andy Muscetti was, "Elsa and I hear this slap against my door." And our doors have these clouded windows on them. So you can't really see it was behind them. And I see just a smeared face like, not only just in one pose, but then just going through the trouble of wiping and smearing this face like all the way up and down. - That's so Andy. - My first thought was like, "That's my boss." (laughs) - Okay, so there's something very funny about Andy's two cameos. So Andy has cameos in episode three, and then again, reprise that same character in seven. Andy and I over the years have had a running joke because Jason, Valentine and I always pitch cutting his cameos. We're always looking for ways to cut it. - But I think that's why he gave it to Matt. (laughs) - Exactly. Like, it didn't happen in my episode. I'm in like, "I'm sorry, Andy. "Takes me out. "You gotta go. "I can't put this in." (laughs) - So getting back to your scene. - Oh yeah, so skeleton, Matt, I mean, based on the tone of one and two, Grant and I were like, we really got our work cut out for us because we wanna live up to the expectations of those episodes. So yeah, it was great centering around this character. It's kind of unique to this one episode because we built this character from ground up. And there's that moment where Francis is behind the tree and we're kind of waiting for something to happen. And he's like, "We need to lose his eye." And then even before he's introduced Andy's like, he needs to say, "Head-o." - In a Spanish accent? - Yes. (laughs) But it was really interesting because all of a sudden, like the direction I'm getting, I was, this is a master of horror, you know, because someone had such a specific vision. And then within seconds, we're like, dialing in this character. I mean, even utilizing some of the, what were POV shots of just like, streaking through the grass or utilizing this white space and just seeing this strange figure from behind the tree. You know, it was, that was definitely without a shadow of that. The first time where I was on the show going like, "Oh, I'm cutting horror. "I have to set the stage psychologically "to really unearth this kid's grave sphere." 'Cause I think what we're saying in the show is this fear stayed with this kid, this whole life, to a point where for Shaw, we needed to have that scene resonate to kind of justify his grand scheme. And that was really good because I was able to establish that and then conclude it in the penultimate when Shaw finally does reveal what his intentions are. So I think an interesting way for all of us, the episodes we got helped inform our other episodes. It's like having to flash back in three and then knowing, "Oh, I kind of already set this up "when I got to the Bob Gray stuff." 'Cause I had already helped set up that world with just the characters and the sound design and I remember finding an artist from 1908, I forget it as an artist. I remember using a recording to open up three and we used the same artist when Bob Gray's in his trailer with his daughter and I don't know, like just the haunting sound about over-recording in this particular artist voice. - Yeah, and then we reprise that at the end of the show, which was just so haunting. You said something about Andy being so masterful with horror and he would let you really go off, but then there were times that there would be a scene like I was cutting Leroy seeing Shaw in the tunnels and then he really analyzed it and he was so specific and really dialed that in. We watched it again and again and again, just let's try shaving a little bit here. Let's try adding a little here. Let's try going to the shot here and by the time he worked it and reworked it, it was just so beautifully constructed. He's just a master at that. - Yeah. Well, I would love to know about the whole sewer system, Glen. How did you create the eds and flows of that terrace? They're wandering deeper and closer to Pennywise and how did you keep that feeling fresh and non-repetitive? 'Cause that whole episode is just beautifully constructed. - Oh, thank you. The director of Manuel did a fantastic job and part of the trick of that is you've got these two different elements. You've got the soldiers descending into the tunnels and you have the children. And then you have an added element where DeColorin is pulled under and Pennywise goes into his head. So you're juggling these three different storylines. It was tricky because when you first cut it, it felt like, wow, there's a lot of shoelether of them going through the caves, but you want to also make the caves scary and threatening. So trying to calibrate how long do we stretch this out without boring the audience? And then it's almost like a fun house where anything can happen. So how do we misdirect the audience and make them feel safe and then hit them hard? So we constantly were playing with the rhythm and the pace to make it feel like it's very scary. Wait, okay, now things feel okay. And then a jump or let's really increase the fear. Like you have these soldiers and they hear laughter and they stare at a hole in the wall. Well, maybe this is a reveal of Pennywise. And then Andy came up with this crazy idea with what would be the soldier's greatest fear? Well, it wouldn't be the eyes of Pennywise. It would actually be Uncle Sam. - So genius. - As this horrid skeleton freak. - Well, in twisting Uncle Sam's famous words, like I want you because that's your quintessential military, iconography, nearly that language is possessive and obsessive, it's genius. Exactly, and none of that was scripted. All that. that was Andy coming up with that on the fly. And we had another scene of this zombie Korean soldier and we ended up cutting that out because having that scene felt like a hat on a hat, we have to like pick and choose where our scares are. And if we have too many, it's going to weigh down this sequence. And okay, we're in this tunnel for a long time. Andy also came up with maybe we need some humor. So let's have the kids be totally high on taking too many pills. Let's swerve their words. These were all things that he came up with in the edit. It wasn't scripted. And so a lot of it is trial and error experimentation, playing and having fun with it. - Yeah, so true. I love that anecdote about lifting the Korean soldier because once you stepped back and saw the whole episode with Andy and realized that hat on a hat, it really made me think of another discovery that Andy and I had in episode one in the library sequence when the kids are all leaning into the microfee ship. Phil has sent Susie off to find a book and Susie's looking through the bookshelves. And she has that great scare with the librarian. And it was this call back to the creepy librarian from it chapter one that was standing behind Ben Hanskum. But once we stepped back and looked at the whole episode, we realized she can't get scared yet. When she gets to the theater, you shouldn't have any prior awareness of petty wisest and entity. And then not only that, but by virtue of stepping away from Lily and Teddy and Phil at the microfee ship and focusing on Susie, some of those key bits of dialogue were playing off-screen. And that's actually critical information that you don't want to step on and then have those lines not resonate. And I've done this whole thing where as the librarian was scaring Susie, we had the little like flits of, like we were using the microfee ship as an editorial device and amplifying the horror, made me think of the microfee ship discovery that Morgan Freeman had in seven or the microfilm in last night in Soho. And I had studied those examples for inspiration points. But that scene actually was best suited as just living with the characters, them leaning into the discovery of what the newspaper holds and then having that knowledge propel them into the next scene and what they're gonna do about it. And it was less about let's get one more scare under our belt. And so that was a moment of something that was working if you look at it in a small lens, doesn't work in service of the whole piece. - Yeah, totally. Esther, you were on location for episode one and two and then for the reshoots, that poses a whole certain challenge. Can you talk to me about that? - Yeah, absolutely. So I love going on location. Going on location can serve many purposes. So one, you can be on set or near set accessible as things are in rapid flux and really warrant an editor's eye. We filmed out of order. We were able to film episodes two, three and four well before episode one. So I went on location to Toronto for the start of photography for episode two. That was cutting near set. I was able to iterate the footage as it was coming in, cutting the assemblies. So that was amazing as I was going to and from work. I was listening to the audio book in my car and then I was coming home and watching chapter one and chapter two just to fully immerse myself in the world. And that was a really great way to kick off the start of the show for me, just anchoring myself in them, who were making it for and how to honor both the original source material from the book and the editorial patterns that had been established in the films and then how we could find a new voice within the structure of a TV show that allows for a different kind of pace and rhythm than the films had provided. And then episode one, we started with the station wagon sequence. I was able to go on location as we shot that because and the in collaboration with visual effects chose to shoot that on a volume wall. I think that sequence we had to shoot in three days. So it's a massive sequence. You have to get it right and you only have so much time and having the ability to be live cutting on set and not just physically cutting but watching it as they're filming and then being able to lean over to the scripts who advise or lean over to Andy and talk through choices together. And Andy was live drawing storyboards and beats were shifting and evolving. Being there on set enabled that extra degree of certainty that we have shot every component that we need for this sequence. We were able to say I just need one moment where the light of the gas station passes, Maddie's face and those kinds of things. Having an editorial eye on set was really helpful and I'm glad they afforded us and made that opportunity. And how are you ingesting the footage into the avid? Was it a video assist? Yeah. So our video assist Stephanie was capturing the footage and we were doing hard drive shuttling back and forth. I had my avid setup in the back of the stage and the Q-take monitor. So I was seeing the video feed as we were filming but then I would get hard drives after each setup had completed. There's no way to do full due diligence by watching the performance as footage is coming in. I would have to watch it as they're shooting it but then it's just a matter of last takes. So it's cutting by first gut instinct and then when I got back to LA, it was a full start over. And at that point I had the ability to understand, okay, I need to cut just on an audio bed first because the rhythm of it matters more than who you're on at any given time and that can be decided secondarily. And then later on we went back to Toronto for some judicious additional photography because I had had that experience life cutting on set. I'd gone several times and the crew all knew me. I had these prior relationships. It made sense for me to go back for that additional photography and then life cut as everything was coming in. And the two of us had lengthy discussions about how I could best support you. And there's that added layer of obligation to ensure that what I'm signing off on is correct for your intentions, what you need the footage to do. And Glenn, there was one sequence that I wasn't able to cut that you made the first priority to work on and then immediately flagged, "Oh, I need one more element for them." We were able to shoot it. And I was so appreciative of the trust that you guys put me to be your eyes and ears on location. And I think it is such a testament to our level of communication, collaboration and camaraderie that we were able to pull that dynamic off. I'm really grateful to you guys that you trust and meet it, get what you guys needed. - It was extremely helpful because I don't think that we would have gotten the exact shots that we needed necessarily if we didn't have you being our eyes up there. It was very good to have one of us. - Definitely. - Well, I mean, even in terms of bridging the relationship to Andy, because a lot of times I would talk to you and I'd get some insight just how he's working and when he's shooting, or he'll see something in a certain take, because a lot of times, episodic he'd be dealing with so many directors over the course of different projects and whatnot. So it was great getting to know how he thinks in terms of what he's shooting because you see it and how this stuff comes in. It's very intentional sometimes. And it was just good knowing that. And there's oftentimes where I'm like, "Oh, that's what Esther suggested weeks back." Or this is what she was looting to, you know? And I'm like, "Oh, no, it's playing out right in front of me." - Esther, you had been on it chapter two. You had been with Andy on the flash. So you could give us a quick intro into his world. And I thought that was extremely helpful and helped us have shorthand because we also have to honor the films and we can watch them, but to also get into his psyche is very important. And so I thought that was huge. And I think that being in a cutting room and being there with the other editors was really useful. Sometimes there's these shows that are remote and you can talk over Zoom and things like that. But there's something about having lunch, building that trust, getting really close with each other and becoming a family. We got so close, I just ended up loving you too. So much. - So much. - And so I think that camaraderie infused itself in our cutting. - I agree. - I completely agree. - It's something we've never talked about, but I feel as a present in all of us, where there was no ego. - Yes, absolutely. - We all walked into this thing. Let's see where all this goes, you know? And then the happy realization that like, We're all working in unison, we're all working without any attitude or issue. or this and that, like those things could really drive down people and work in a small department. But honestly, it just couldn't have been planned any better. If you tried to plan something this good, it wouldn't have turned out this good. It might be. Yeah. It's remarkable how well the chemistry was when none of us met before day one of each of our days. Like it really-- Yeah. --I was surreal and how wonderful it all worked out. Yeah. And for me, I had worked with Greg Glickman on Banshee. He thought I'd be right for this. And so I had an interview with Barbara, not Andy, because Andy was super busy. And I got the sense from her, I just want to make sure you're going to fit with the family. Yes. They are family people. They want people who are going to fit together to have this joyful relationship. The skills are a given. But if they're not family people, we're not interested. From the very beginning, it felt like we're going to treat this as a family. Completely. I mean, they set that tone and we all embraced it. It's incredible. I've been with them since 2018. That feeling doesn't change. I'm just lucky to be in there or bet. They create a really special environment. And that extends to every single department. It's really beautiful. One of the things that I loved so much about this experience was getting to show you guys cuts. I'd often pull you guys into the room and watch this, house this working. Do you see another vision? Would this seem to be better over here or whatnot? And it's just really fun to not be on an island. And the three of us really leaned into each other. I certainly really was looking towards you guys of them. Not necessarily, is it working? Am I on the mark? But how is it cohesively within what each of us are building? And where in your explorations of your scares and your sequences and your characters can we enrich what I'm doing over here in Viceroy. So it's a real gift to have that. Well, the technical things, too, like, for instance, the kids and the challenges we had. It'd be one thing working on an island and dealing with that. But the fact that we were all of one mind and spreading these concerns and how we're going to address them across all of us and across all the episodes. Like, there are so many things that fell into place that we didn't have to construct a system between you guys and our assistants and our post crew. Having been in smaller units in terms of being in bands. The single thing that can destroy a great creative unit is just one problematic personality. There's many good work environments, but this had all these intangibles that, Glenn, when you evoked the term family. It really was more like that than co-work. Completely. I think it goes back to you saying, "Ego, we left our ego at the door and it wasn't like you're the lead editor or you're the lead editor." It wasn't like that. We all are in service to make this as great a series as we possibly can. Yeah, absolutely. Sometimes, first-year series are difficult. There's a lot of stress and Andy definitely alleviated that stress. It was almost like, "We're making pasta. We're making a meal. We're having fun. It's joy." Well, I think also Andy does set that tone completely. But I think one of the things that the two of you guys do really well is our relationship was built on fun and joy, so that when you do need to talk through, I was watching the episode and I realized, I'm setting up this thing, so maybe that thing should be set up in your episode. We didn't only go to each other when there was a problem or a conflict that needed resolving. We had built that rapport of fun and enjoyment, even lunch together every single day. The absolute blast we had, and scaring the tours, lunch hour, all of those things were actually such a necessary part of our creative collaboration because you don't want to only talk to each other when there's something to be resolved. You want to become family. And I think it's just a really wonderful experience working with you guys. Yeah, even in terms of the content, you mentioned earlier the drum solo getting moved. And then even that song, "Uh-oh, Troubles Back in Town." That lived in the one-year episodes, and then it found its way into the ending of set. Yes, yes. Thematically worked great because it's commentary about what Pennywise was going to do and how he's back. So yeah, and in every moment, you said it, Glenn, too, it's always in service of the show. Right, yeah, I remember when Esther's like, "I'm taking your Royal Arbors in song." Sorry, that's great. It's played so well at the end of four for so long. Yeah. But that's an entitled. That's not as important as it playing in service of a montage that really sets up this town. Yeah, but then there was another moment where I was starting to cut a scene. I love the song that you were using when Dick and his friends arrive at the Black Spot for the first time. When I went, "Is this a song you guys are attached to in that place?" And you said, "We love it there." And I went great. And then I immediately threw out the scratch work that I was starting to work with on that scene because that wasn't a moment where I was like, "No, I'm going to create a sonic battle." Like, "No, no, no, it already has a really great place somewhere else." Absolutely. So much of the texture and tone of this show is musical, but we were not. It wasn't a competition for placement. It was about how it can elevate the story and in which moment can a song be the best place for something. Yeah. So, Matt, do you want went on to another show, "Lanterns" because you had this commitment. And you had to turn over ownership of some of these things to both Grant and Esther. That's not always an easy thing. So talk to me about that. Yeah, for me, it was a challenge because I was ambitiously trying to service both shows for a couple weeks. And on top of that, I ended up getting a lower back issue, which forced me to just abruptly make this clean break because the stress of these two gigs and then I would deal with the fact. But it was hard to lead dairy, honestly. So I was trying to stay there just because love of the show, love of you guys, love of Andy and Barbara, I had trust in both Grant and Esther without a doubt. So I always knew things were going to be left in good hands, but what was great was continuing the open dialogue about what was happening in my absence. And Esther, when I talked to you about this sequence that ultimately lives at the end of four now, which involved all of us at certain time, that's what I was dealing with specifically when I left. So a lot of the conversations were about that. I mean, I always felt the mutual respect and appreciation because there have been times where I've had similar situations where I had to leave. And I just kind of knew like, they're going to do this to that. It was just another testament to the show and working with people you trust because you're sharing in the same thing even though you're gone. I would talk to you, Esther, and I'd be like, oh, yeah, I know you're talking about it, know the shot. Or even if you had to go back or recut what are the scenes, it's just having to discuss in just about the performances that were there, stuff like that. When I would go back to one of the mixing stages, which was another benefit of having it all happen on the lot, I could leave my cutting room on my new show, go to the stage and finally watch three and it's full glory. And I'd be like, holy fuck, that was great. That's amazing. Because you're inside of it for so long and then stepping away and just the specialness of this whole thing just continues. And I got to say, welcome to Dairy was the first time I could consciously look at myself in America. Like, I love what I do. I've always have, but the stress of some gigs makes you rethink things so tight. You know what I mean? Sometimes you can just be working so late and so long and addressing the same note over and over again. And you're just, why did I get involved in this in the first place? And then when you get to finally read the rewards in a way that this show has, it's, I don't want to say life changing. Maybe that's too profound, but it's redefined my approach and my appreciation for what we do because it is, it is again. Well, it's one of those things where we're all artists and one of the beauties of making film and television is that it's one of the few arts that is deeply collaborative in its nature. And when you're making art in the period that you're making it, it's yours. And then when you release it, it isn't yours anymore. It's completed and it becomes somebody else's. And this experience has been deeply moving and emotional to see people resonating with it because we have loved it and we have studied every single frame of it and really cherished it together as a team. You can't control whether somebody will love it as much as you've loved it and crafting it. But the audience, the fans really have been our collective true north in this creative endeavor. And I think that can be sometimes rare. Those moments are really special and very moving. Yeah. And we have a character that people have a very special relationship to. Anywise is a villain, but he's a very special person. He's also somebody that people really respond to. And so we want to really bring the same level of commitment that people have towards Pennywise into this series. - I remember getting the Bob Gray stuff for seven and I was like, holy shit, the fans are gonna love this moment. And then I remember Grant having a similar thing when Pennywise ends up confronting Perry Winkle. We got those daily sand and there are all these just charismatic, beautiful and scary closeups of Scar's Guard as Pennywise, I could watch the whole scene just being right here on the guide. There's this sort of idea of like, you know, you play stuff in the master and then you migrate to the closeups for emphasis. There's certain guidelines, you know, but this was one of those moments where I'm like, no, you just shatter the rules because we have such a spectacular figure on the screen. Just give me as much of these characters possible because it was such a big moment in that episode just in terms of fandom. I've had iconic figures I've cut in series before, but nothing to this game. Those studios ever handed me like, what are their chief characters and said here, like, do whatever you want with this. And then actually being able to get my hands all up in there because he can't just approach a scene with this character in a conventional sense. You just can't because you're going to be short-changing the audience, you know, because you're leaving all this great stuff behind, you know what I mean? So yeah. - Well, Matt Esther, I love talking to you. I love working with you. I can't wait for the day that we all work together again. Such a pleasure. - This is the most incredible. Those habits over. (laughing) - I know. I know. I'm ready. - If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe. We really appreciate it. (screaming) - You put us in a cage for the gods and monsters. - The one thing that makes people really listen is fear. You fucking insane. - This is what it was. To turn us against each other. - You got my mind on fucked up. - I've always wondered how you did it. (cheering)