Ecommerce Content Flywheel: Meta to TikTok, Paid to Organic

All right, welcome to episode 112. If it's been a minute Connor, I don't know if you and I have ever actually done it. And I'm sure we've done an individual podcast, but it's been a while. Welcome to episode 112 Connor. How you doing? I'm doing a while. I think this is Connor max, like second missed operators podcast. I think he has like a 99.2% hit rate on these, but he's not here today. So we're going to we're going to run the show. But I'm doing well. Beautiful day in Denver, Colorado. Can't wait to sit inside and look at it from my window while I'm doing e-com all day. Connor, I like the look. I like the hat, the stash, the flow. I feel like you look like you're like fresh off like a hiking trip or ski trip. What's going on in your world? What is going on in my world? Well, the nice fellas at at Huckberry sent me this last Christmas. It's one of my new go to hats. Did ski seasons fully over, but I'm training for a trail run right now. So that's been my that's been my non-ecom stuff. Do I've gone fully, I know you're like you're a big weightlifter. I've gone fully in on like all the all the zone to like how to how to train zone to like threshold climb. Like I got I'm like deep in that rabbit hole right now. And it's been fun because I haven't never like fully gone on like a true plan for like a Robic endurance training. So that's been my new that's kind of been the new thing I've been nerding out on. I got my like my clawed personal trainer nutritionist just fully dialed in right now, given me weekly plans and it's been fun. It's I'm not I'm not like a runner. So it's been cool to like go down that rabbit hole. I was going to say I see like the traps right now. Like you're the only guy who can like not lift and do green juices and and go run and still have still have shoulders and traps like that. I'm jealous. Dude, you build the foundation. It was it was 12 years of of heavy weightlifting in high school and and after that it's like it hasn't gone away. So now now on the running train and we'll see see what happens. But yeah, I got a trail run in in mid July and asked been Colorado. So that'll be interesting. It's like I'll be like running at 10,000 feet elevation. I'm going to go out there and stay with bar from boost coos for the week and acclimate. And then hopefully get a decent time. And it's been yeah, you know, it's fun to have something just to like train towards. You know, I typically don't. It's just like lifestyle stuff and I like doing it. Yeah, it's been fun to actually have like this thing that I'm that I'm working towards and have a plan that builds and do it. And it's certainly easier to like follow the plan when you know it's contributing towards like some some moment in time. So it's been cool. How about you? What's what's going on in your and your like health wellness recreation? Dude, it's good. I started playing golf again. I had a hipster like a year ago and had some setbacks. So I'm just training them. I go back and forth, but I'm training in the garage. I was going to the gym most mornings and now that it's warm, I have like a pretty good set up. I have like trap bar of a tonal. I have some some kettlebells in the garage. So yeah, just training a very, very functional training like get them like a 30 minute lift most mornings. I have my computer open doing some cloud sessions while while I'm doing it trying to like trick that out. I might even buy like a like a TV as a monitor for it. You know, you can't ever miss a moment, but yeah, just mostly lifting. I need to get better at finding some aerobic stuff that I like. And just some like low levels on to, you know, that's the thing. I think my heart is my heart could use a little bit of work and just like helps with overall, you know, health and stress, but it's, but it's good. Trying, trying to do it, you know, 30 minutes a day between whatever, you know, sleepless nights and kid stuff, but I always got to do it. So for me, it's more just like keeping dad by the way. So I'm painting this picture right now. It's like Cody in his in his home garage gym laptop, her like prompts, clawed, then after that's in between sets, then clouds doing its thing like autonomously. Then Cody goes and does a set and then like checks in between. And is this what's going on my wife? Cause like I sometimes I'll all work out. If I can't work out in the morning, I'll get like a 20 minute workout and once I get home, but I'm like, I'll do it. Like I'll have a few kettlebells and I'll like do it while watching the kids and like trying to get dinner ready while like clawed. And I was doing some like some like continuous kettlebell stuff and I was telling my wife, like, this is perfect. I do five minutes straight of this, two minutes of clawed. Five minutes of this. I love that. It's perfect. So awesome. What a sequence. Yeah. How is tonal? What's the deal with that? It's pretty sick. It's nice. Cause you get you get like the full and then, you know, eventually we'll we'll talk about marketing. But tonal is actually I think a really cool company. Rob Webb was like, you know, he used to be had a growth there and I think he's at magic mine now. So shout out to Rob. I don't know if he's a listener or not. But it's awesome. It's like a cable machine. It's got all of the technology in it. So you can like do classes and stuff like that. I don't do it. So I don't have a membership live and active. So I really just do like, if you have like the membership that's live, you can do all of their like classes and workouts. But you can also like pick exercises and it'll like save your volume and all of that stuff. You know, make sure you're getting progressive overload and stuff. It's really cool because you have like different methods. You go like eccentric, isometric, like there's a lot of really cool stuff that you can do with it. And you can just like push it, you know, pretty heavy. So it's just like a super efficient way where it just goes on the wall. So yeah, big, big, big fan. I don't so I don't have any like dumbbells in there. I just do tonal and then I've kettlebells, a trap trap bar. I have a barbell so I do a lot of like land mine work, but pretty, pretty, pretty efficient in there. I'm curious how tonal is doing these days. I think they were a COVID company, right? And like I imagine they popped off during COVID when no one was going to the gym. And I'm curious. So I don't know. I do think home gyms in general have like, like I think COVID, I don't think those, I think those could continue to grow like it seems, at least it seems to be that way. I don't know. I was even thinking about Pagas Peloton's public so we can laugh, but I was thinking about it. But like, yeah, I don't know anything good. I know. And some of those like, I think I'm a little like nostalgic if that's right word to like some of these like, you know, 2020 era like D to C brands like combator or stuff like that. They're probably not doing great as businesses. They're probably really struggled and probably raised too much, but like it was like peak. And like I just, I did love that era. And like I do think there were some like really cool brands that you know came out of it. Like I think combator is really cool. It's just like, there's just like hard business models and they don't really necessarily work that well. Even hello fresh, I feel like is there a little bit or it's like a great thing. It's a great service. They're a great brand, but like I just don't know if the business model is viable. I mean, Peloton stock looks good in the last month. It's up 34% but in the last year, it's down 22%. So I still I still rip my Peloton every now and again. I'm not usually doing the classes anymore. I usually just do like the just ride and I'm just like taking it easy on some zone two stuff. But yeah, I think that I agree with you. It is a tough space. Here's what I want to talk about today. Create a flywheel. I think that's probably a fun one. The original question that was posed from a listener was like, what's the flywheel look? What's the flow look like? Influencer to paid. And I was like, hey, like this could be actually just like a really good overall creative flywheel discussion. So I'd love to hear how you guys do it, how you think about it. And what I said in the stage, what I mean by flywheel is like, you know, if I like how I'm thinking about it, at least it's like, how are you leveraging content that teams are creating across all different avenues to create leverage and, you know, ultimately feed the ad account. Obviously there's a ton of content needs that's outside of the ad account and definitely want to chat about them. But like, what does the flow look like to feed them? We've talked about that a lot of like TikTok shop, confeded or whatever. So I know you guys do a lot of like production stuff. I'm very excited to ask about that because we just did some big production stuff. How you budget for content? Like that's kind of the conversation I want to have. So let me, let me start by asking you about it. Like, what are your sources of content? What do you make? What percentage of your ad account is like net new, just produced for ads for like meta ads? What percent is coming from influencer, from partnerships, from TikTok? How do you guys kind of like break up your ad account? I would say we probably have like, this is, this is totally off the top of my head. So I'll have to QA these numbers. But I would guess that like a third of our ad account is probably creator led stuff. Whether it's anywhere from Gordon Ramsay to kind of Jane Smith who has 5,000 followers but makes great ads that convert. So that's probably a third of it, 25% depending on the time of the year. And is that like partnerships usually or is that kind of split between partnerships and brand handle? Split. But a lot of partnership ads, again, I don't know exactly how much but a lot of it is like chef name with hex-clad partnership ad. And then we run a lot of it, like we run a lot of Gordon stuff from our brand handle as well. So I'd say about a third of it's that I would say about maybe 20 to 25% is like, or maybe higher is maybe up to 33% is stuff that we are like video that we are producing in our studio. So think like more higher production value stuff. Like product type real type assets that that we're making. Some of it's more like YouTube ads that we're then doing cut downs on. But like really high fidelity stuff that's actually been a bucket of content that we really have been been focusing on beefing up in the last two years. And if you look at our ad library now, a lot of our content is more higher fidelity stuff. Whereas like two years ago that number on the like low five crater lead stuff was probably up to like 50% you know, maybe even 60%. We just wanted to like introduce more high five, more premium feeling assets into the account. And I'd say the other like the last 25 to 30% is just like static ads that our designers are going in and doing more like graphic treatments on. So I think those are like generally the three core buckets that most brands have is like native crater lead stuff more higher fidelity kind of shot stuff You're shooting or an agency shooting in a studio and then you have your just like straight up more graphic treated ads and then obviously within that there's like A massive, you know, if you drill down one light one level deeper. There's a huge like Split of like what are the angles we're hitting what are the products we're hitting what are the creators we're hitting But I think those are generally the the three buckets like the highest level of bucket and You know, we just like we we operate I'm curious what your process is but like I want to mention this because I actually think this is something that is like the obvious thing to do for most brands But I think a lot of brands like get so So in the weeds and like they're almost like five feet from their ad account and all the creative they're producing And you give in time that they don't they don't lean into this but like we create a plan every quarter So like we have a we operate on like quarterly sprints for the entire growth team That's not unique to paid media creative, but like Every plan every quarter We run through this process of like creating a plan that we're gonna go and try to produce against and like we're very thoughtful and intentional about not trying to like Fill up every creative testing slot in this plan because we also want to have this base to like react and iterate on things Interquarter but like we create a plan every single quarter when the process of doing it right now would probably be finalized in the next week or two And then like that's the Bible for what we go and produce against and like that just allows us to zoom out and kind of say hey What's working? Let's go produce more stuff like that What's what are we not doing at all that we think has upside like let's go produce more stuff like that like there are certain Creator niches right now and certain ad angles that we think creators can bring the life that like we just think we need to go and Create stronger content pillars against like that. That's a huge part of our creative plan And then we get into the quarter and it's really easy for us to look at and say Hey, we want it we we think we're not hitting this angle enough like what are all the ways that we can go and do it We can go work with these creators. We can do this type of like comparison shoot in our studio We can do these types of like graphic treatments and now we have like a very I think by the end of the quarter We'll have a very robust grouping of ads that like hit on that on that angle and and like that's the whole goal with having these like roadmaps But I think not enough brands are are doing that at least in my experience like you have too many people that are just thinking like One week at a time or two weeks at a time and like when you do that you can't zoom out and think about those bigger Yeah, well, what's it? What's yeah, so what's like the JRB? Well, well, let me let me actually ask you the first the question you asked me first like what's your like add account makeup in terms of like Content types and where you're getting it from and then like yeah, I'm curious what your sort of like road map plan or process looks like Motion just dropped their 2026 creative benchmarks report and it's been getting shared everywhere slack channels linked in Twitter sharing it in our private group chats and it's great because everybody's been asking the same four questions forever What is normal how many ads should we actually be shipping? What is a healthy hit rate and which formats really win? The report analyzes over 575,000 creatives from 6000 advertisers and over a billion dollars in ad spend to answer these exact questions And the report has some really interesting findings like the fact that only 4 to 8% of ads actually become liners and over half of ads actually lose And for motion customers this report is especially helpful You can upload it into your motion dashboard with their run-eth AI chat and compare it directly against your vertical benchmarks Hit the link in the show notes. I promise you won't regret it and as always go to motionapp.com until the marketing operator sent you I'm much better at strategy than I am about operations I'm actually like just absolutely awful about operations So like I need to surround myself with people that are better good at that Um yeah, even on the critter stuff you mentioned like there's also different like even more ways to break that down Because obviously over your micro's you have your influencers Gordon I know you guys are doing production stuff with which like I love pairing those things together So yeah, I love that. I'm happy to break into that too after this We can talk about like how we how we look at those deals and where that content is coming from definitely love that so yeah, we have um Let's say creator stuff. So we we have we super loom as you know You know for influencers so they do a majority of our partnership ads We have two different kind of pipelines that we use for that so I'll call that like influencer. It's creator one of it is Purely a ugc play and so we'll well it's still um it's the partnership ads and these are still like people that you want partnership Right to they might be different sizes Just all depends on the deal and the go the negotiation so some of them are micro's but they're not like you know And these are not like $300 per video like these are still like people that have some some following So some of them will be pure ugc people don't post but where they're just contracted for ads We're doing less and less of that for a few reasons and so there's a lot of like you know paid influencer to organic pipeline and just we find it works better What's working really well is just that whole like yapper thing It's like no edits like weekly we'll be in team meetings that I'm like guys look This is like there's no edits on this one like I don't think this is a good added I think that's why it's performing well and I'm like I'm trying to throw out all of those like conventional Practices of like oh, there's no hook. There's that it yeah, so I'm like I'm like I'm like trying to be so Humble about maybe that's like where I'd have now like because I'll look at stuff. I'm like I don't I don't know if that's like there's no hook But I'm like and then we launch something and it's like great, you know, it's crushes So that's like our influencer not too digress too much. That's like our influencer pipeline The thing that works so well about that is you know that program stand like the influencer program Stand itself up pretty well. We like at least break even on that And we don't pay extra for most of that content Supervolumist is really good at doing the deals and so like it's it's a really great flywheel I think I think a flywheel is something where it's like it compounds You know and like one thing feeds the other so it's like there's really like almost very little cost of that content If we're breaking even at the very you know At least on the influencer side and so that's allowed us to scale it up pretty quickly and you know take some bigger swings And so that's our like influencer pipeline We have you know again, we can go into what we'll do is we have some people We work with internally as well like somebody crushes will put them on a roster You know and be like how we'd love to work with you for three months six months. Give them upcoming launches So you know that is that is kind of our main influencer on then we have you know creators And I think this is where we could get better We've never really had to like pure ugc perform well And you know that's like the whole like hey, I'm gonna find a creator on backstage and brief them I think I have many Hypothesis It never really work for us what I've seen more and more of people talking about lately like it actually doesn't work as well as it used to That whole like scripted. Let me give you a brief again people are just more Numb to ads. That's where that whole yapper thing is so we are we are experimenting a lot and we are Trying a bunch of new things and like determine a crack it But I think the more organic it feels like we're going for the whole yapper stuff We're always testing the brief so we're using a few different like tools to find these creators I don't know do you guys do any like how do you guys find your like Micro-creators that are not influencers if if you're just looking for content Yeah, well first off to like coming on your point of how your briefing creators like same we do not Give people scripts ever like we just don't we give them bullet points So we say hey, we want you to talk about these things. We give them visuals. We want them to um To show but like we do not do that either and if you go look at our ad account and you're like to organize it or in motion or in meta The creator that adds and then you look at the ones that are scaling like it is stuff that feels more yappery Like it feels authentic. It's we clearly didn't give them a word by word script. So That's how we approach that um In the past when we've been thinking about like Non-influencer creators. It's been a super manual process like we have a really awesome influencer team and like they handle all things Combs or creator right does anybody or it's like hey we want to go and activate this ad type and here's the type of creators Like they're going out and they're sourcing those creators and then they'll pass them back to our pay team and they'll say hey We like person a d and e but not these other seven people. Let's go try to sign a deal with them Which works, but it's just a little slow and it's very intensive on the influencer team So actually what what we did this year which is working really well is you know There's a lot of discourse about hiring creators in house, which I think is a great idea Um, however, I think when you do that you kind of limit yourself to That creator style or that handful of creator style so we've actually done a slightly different approach where we're actually working with this woman now Who was a freelancer of the she she's not a full-time employee but like we have her on a certain number of hours per week And we might ramp it up or down depending on the time of the year like our marketing calendar But this this woman has like this huge roster of creators shows she's basically become this like broker between us as a brand and this like Huge roster of creators. So what's cool now is we go to her and we say hey danica like here's the ad we're trying to make here's the moment We have the persona we want to hit the new product we have and then she's going into her roster of creators and saying I think these are the right people to bring this message into your ad account And that's been amazing because it allows us to activate with more micro creators It allows us to move faster because now our influencer team doesn't have to go and like Start from scratch every time when it comes to sourcing And like this is like all this woman does is like create relationships with creators So like when we go to her she knows who we want to activate with and then it's the same thing as you just said like Once we find someone who works like we'll we'll reactivate with them again and again and again and again so like Now in our ad account, there's like, you know, five to 10 smaller creators that we are activating with over and over again because they performed well. And like that's that flywheel for us. Like we bring them in through this freelancer we're working with, we test their ads. And then if it works, like you said, we'll go and say, Hey, we have, we'll just activate it again, both on evergreen stuff, new product stuff. Like, Hey, if you made a cookware ad that works, we're probably going to activate you for a nice. If you made a evergreen ad that works, we probably want to activate you for our summer sale, like whatever it is. And that's that's like the, the creator flywheel. And that I think that's like replacing a lot of agencies. Like I, that's kind of what, you know, we used to use agencies for, we have used agencies who really did a similar thing. And now we're, we're kind of building it very similar thing internally. Combination, we're using like a software that has like a services component that we're testing, like we're not sure on, but just to kind of make a lot like the finding people easier. So I think however you do it, whether it's an agency, whether it's internally, yeah, you need some type of like a network of creators. Are these like what, what kind of creators are they? Because like what I've seen is like what works well for this stuff is like organic creators who have some type of a falling in. They're not influencers or more, maybe more of like a tiktoker, but like they're not like the backstage actor who, you know, is being paid to read a script. Like there's some type of a actual creator. They're just not a huge creator, but they're, they're not charging like for us, we're paying hundreds of dollars per video, not thousands per video. Yep, same here. Yeah, they're not, they're not actors. Like most of them do have some, some social presence, but it's not, it's usually like 10k to 50k. And it seems like what they're doing mainly is making ads. And that's where they're deal flow and, and comp comes in and like I think to like hit on your point, like that is like the alpha is in the ability to like source and brief and produce content quickly. So like that's, that's where you need, and like that's where I think we've got alpha this year is why is by activating with this freelance. I mentioned. And now we're moving so much quicker. How quickly can you go from idea to ad launch? Like weeks now where that might have taken, you know, a month or two, depending on what we're trying to do with them prior when we're the ones going out. I wanted to hit today's my goals to get to days. I don't know if you've seen people do that, but like that to me is the goal. And that's what again, I'm just we're slow to build out the team in terms of what I need. We're we're likely going to hire a freelancer, so I was like a big project to build this out internally. And have hopefully creators internally starting freelance going to a full-time job where it's like, hey, I, my growth team has this idea when we reviewed content on Monday, I launched that on Wednesday. I launched that on Friday. So I'm like, that is the goal. And by the end of the year, we will get there. I know that there are teams that are there. So I was a week to so much better than it used to be, but I feel like for the speed of social, that's what's that's what's needed. I think especially once you get like different, like as you start to get that process going and you have different creators in different stages, like you can get to a point where you have like new ad, new creator, let ads coming in every single week. And now you're just like you have, you know, 15 different creators all the way from like just getting brief to producing content. And then like that fly, we all really starts to show up. But like I think, I think what's really important for brands is you need to think about like what, what are we most qualified to do that an agency will never do better than we can, which is like selecting the creators, selecting the narrative, breathing in these creators. Like no one's going to know your brand at an agency better than you do in house. So like that's the part that like we've really internalized. And then what's the part that is going to like be a drag on the agency or on the in-house team. Well, it's like the constant comms and sourcing of like creators where like our influencer team yes, that's part of their job. But they're also managing our brand ambassadors. They're also managing all of our organic social comms. Like they have a lot on their play. They're managing like new initiatives within influencer. Like hey, we want to go and activate and be more present on YouTube or whatever. Like how do we do that? So we that's how we've thought about like why outsource that, but not the other stuff. Well, it's like we just think a freelancer that only thinks about greater relationships and has this like huge roster of relationships that we don't have relationships with those people. Like that's the the thing that we should outsource and is going to allow us to like kind of create a one plus one equals five situation. Marketing operators, I want to challenge how you think about post purchase. If you zoom out post purchase isn't a tactic. It's a system. It's your cart, your checkout logic, your one click upsells how you increase a ov revenue procession profit procession is your confirmation pages all of that system together. The entire flow determines how much incremental revenue that you can make per order. That's why rocked aftersell isn't just an upsell tool. It's a design system for the full post purchase experience. Rocked aftersell gives you one unified system. 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Operators, listeners can activate rock thanks and get the full aftersell suite for a year or grab an extended 60 day trial to test post purchase performance. Go to aftersell.com/operators, build this system once and let it compound. For me, this is head of creator. It's going to oversee social as well, but for me, this is like the whole like, you know, my bet is like this is the next head of growth is like it's it's head of creator where they're almost like a creative director for creators, if that makes sense. So they're not it's separate from influencer. They're not going to influence a party is and stuff like that. Like they're, you know, they're not speeding like influencers. Like there is an overlap, but they are anything that where you need content from creators, they are, you know, owning that and it'll be a cross organic and paid, but that's what we're doing and kind of a very similar thing that you've done with the freelancer. We're just trying to kind of build that internally. We're going to start freelance, but do like a freelance stuff to full-time thing. But I think especially at scale, like, you know, smaller brands, you might be your influencer team, they might be your growth team, whatever it is, your social team, but at scale, I think that that's just one of the the highest leverage roles and it's like it's the way I'm thinking about it, it's kind of like building an internal agency. Like that's actually like what I'm trying to do. I know like some larger brands talk about it like that, like Airbnb has their agency, like internally, it's like it's kind of doing like that. It's like a very different culture, like, you know, they're like for us to even be across the street in a different office where our studio is, but like, yeah, that's the goal is just to have people who are just shipping content full-time, you know, and just having, I just want to have like three, four creators running around doing that. Again, like, and those would be like three, four creators who are whether they're freelancers for full-time, like this is the end state, like they're four days a week shooting ads, you know, shooting content, and then, and then it would also be a lot of people that are either on a roster or we just like know their rates and they're easy to go to and be like, hey, can you shoot this for us? Here's 300, here's 500, you know, and you don't have to like renegotiate, you don't have to like give them that much context. So I just think there's so much leverage in that. And then you have, are you guys doing any TikTok shop content on meta? So that's like the newest flywheel that we're like dipping our toes in. We actually just went and bought right on the mid-end rights from like five or 10 creators that were now like putting into post-production. That process has been a little bit slow because it's the first time we've done it here. And like we we shot to some of these folks and are like $5,000. Like, when I'm not paying you $5,000 for exactly. But like then we, so it was just a volume game. Then we found the people that were like, yeah, we'll sell this content to you for 500 bucks and you can use it in perpetuity forever. And like they're happy with that because it's just going to get more awareness of them as a creator and an affiliate. And like they're already seeing good affiliate results with TikTok shop with us. Like, all right, great. This is just going to like enhance that. So that's the flywheel we're working on right now. We have like I think five to 10 pieces of content in the hopper that we're going to test with. And then depending on how well those perform, we're going to like try to make that a more robust always on flywheel. But for now, it's just been are like, Affiliately going in looking at content, seeing which ones are selling the best, sending that over to our paid creative team and saying, Hey, here's the stuff that's working the best. Here's the stuff that I think is the most like DR product focus. What do you want? And then we're going into go shading with those people. So it's been a little clunky up front just because it's a new flywheel for us. But that's one that I'm I'm very excited on. And I'm hoping that can fill like I just think like the app or style content like TikTok shop affiliates are the most good at that. Because they need to sell product to to like eat and make money. So I'm excited to see how those perform in our meta account. Let's say we're one step ahead of you. So I'm not going to pretend I have a figured out, but I'll I'll give you you know what I've learned so far because we're starting to get some winners. So it's very much of a volume play we're using. Yuka there, I guess they're they have like a beta where they're trying to request rights. So you can request a flat dollar amount or percentage. We haven't had anyone take. Yeah, Yuka. It's like a TikTok shop software. We haven't had anybody accept the percentage yet, but I really hope that people will. Because then it's like, all right, I'm just going to request on every single piece. Like there's just no harm on like every single piece. It's very much a volume play. These are yeah, EUK. These are you know hundreds of dollars per video. Like this is probably your cheapest per video piece of content that you request. We are figuring out the right amount to request because to get like the acceptance rate, you know, whatever. So not a lot of people are accepting right now, but we're trying to just go a volume play. And because we've gotten some winners, you know, and it's very, it's very cheap. It's like just a volume play you have again, trying to be humble. I have no idea what's kind of perform on the stuff. Like I don't think it's easy to go through. Like, oh, it's that one. So it's like, let's just request a lot. Let's get a lot of people accepting. Let's get a lot launched. It's very low cost and, and you know, get a few winners. What we've seen, again, yeah, for that note, it's it's so organic. These TikTokers are really good at, you know, yapping. It's it's shot in a way where it's just so not an ad. So it gets a lot of reels delivery. That it has improved new reach for us. And again, like, that not a lot of cuts. Their head is cut off. It's like so imperfect. And this is just what I believe consumers want now. And so, so yeah, highly recommend it, especially once you get success. And it's just like, it's just blocking, and tackling, and scaling it up. So we're in the process of trying to do that and figure out how we get more accepted and how we just get as many dids in as possible. But I believe that's a that's one of the best flywheels you have. Obviously comfort talks about it a lot. I know cuts. It's been really successful for cuts as well. I'm going to send you a guitar team and yeah, it's a bait of it. I can let me reach out to them. I just think also like even on the whole like super bloom stuff, the influencers are stuff where we're doing, like when you tell somebody to make an ad, even if you're saying, hey, we want organic and spell like, yeah, like, I just feel like when they know it's an ad, it's different versus like, if it's an organic piece, it's just like, it comes off different. And so I just I actually really love that like switching us to organic social. Again, I don't know if you guys are doing anything. We are finding a ton of success with organic social especially if it's like a creator led organic social like, you know, we just launched this Emily Deez, not oh thing. And like two days before launch, I like sent it to my team and I don't want to say they're performing amazing, but they're performing like above average compared to everything else. I was like, here's all the organic stuff that I saw our team working on and as she sent over, like just launch it all, you know, and I really think everybody should have a campaign and a flywheel for organic social reels. Because that's where if you pay attention to Metters, earnings reports and all that like that's where all the growth is of users and engagement. They're now trying to get people actually back on Facebook and they're they're hopefully it's a little game for some people. They're trying to grow Facebook and they're incentivizing creators to post on Facebook and, you know, reels and stuff. But right now it's all been reels. And so if you want new reach and to reach new users and where people are, you have to get reels delivery and what better way to do that than by getting organic reels. So highly bullish on that. And it's been obviously something that we're working on, like scaling up like creator organic social programs. So we're starting to test, you know, some of that now. That's like stuff that is made for organic social and ads. But even our like creator or like brand organic social that does well. I've been shocked how well it's actually work. So that's the flywheel we haven't like it's on my list to try. But we just we're trying to take talk shop affiliates stuff first because it's it's more in line with like what what has worked with us. Totally. I do want I need to we do need to try like even if they require slight recuts because most of our like a lot of our creator led reels, if you go look are they're really engaging, but they're just like they're not ads, right? They're very much like, Hey, here's this recipe I'm making. Stuff like that. So, uh, but I am I am excited about that just to see what yes, see what comes of it. I'm curious. I want to ask you I want I want to like move up up the the ladder here and talk about like creator led stuff. That's a little bit more um higher ticket because I'm here. I want to ask how you are structuring that because we've totally totally changed up how we're structuring those deals where historically we might have signed like a 12 year or 12 month deal that has, you know, organic deliverables, paid deliverables, all the white listing stuff, event appearances, you have to come into our studio, um, X days per week. And now we've we've really shifted and pivoted towards saying, Hey, let's just do the bare minimum that we know is going to drive performance here over a much shorter period of time and and like test that out with like a three to six months usage. And then if it works, like go into go into a bigger deals like for us, for example, we work with outer signal and like one of the cool things about outer signal is um like the the persona stuff that it gives you. So based on some of the personas that they that they gave us, which is like, their persona stuff is so good. We use it for everything. It's so good. Yeah, it's amazing. It's super detailed. It's like one of the ones that we found was that what what is called like the executive epicurion, which is this kind of like high achieving person that is like an executive high earner, you know, they're an entrepreneur, a doctor or whatever, like kind of, you know, you think of when you think about like in like a high alpha person in a high achieving role and they're trying to optimize our one of us are a cut you up, but one of our personas is the high performance exec is one of ours. Really? Okay. So so based on that, like I've also I've always thought we should go and like activate some ads with the like the tech entrepreneur who's like I like I perform high in every aspect of my life and cookies no they're cooking is no different. So what we're doing is we're actually doing an ad deal with Sahil Bloom and that deal is like we think he hits that persona perfectly and like he already owns Hexclad I see it show up a little bit organically in his YouTube content. He is a content creator, right? Did he buy you saw him in outer signal? No, we actually seated him a long time ago, but I think I think I think he had already had some products and I was he's like oh I love it. I'm like oh let us send you more and like and he's like oh this is these are great. So like organically loves our content. Check number one or our products check number one. Check number two he's a creator. So we're not bringing him into the studio like he's going to make it super native, super authentic. He's a YouTuber, which is a channel we're trying to show up on more. So I'll create it for YouTube and then we'll do cut downs for paid social and like that's a deal where we're not signing like a 12 month deal with him. We're signing a three month deal with him. That's part flat fee part percent of the spend with a cap and then we will decide if we want to like expand that deal moving forward. So that's been the approach with like that's been a big shift in how we sign these like larger influencer deals and it's just I think that's the way to do it because it's like the perfect balance like you're giving the creator some upside here, but you're also hedging in case it doesn't work that well and you don't you know for for us like we want to spend you know at least not we probably don't need to spend half a million on it, but we probably want to spend like three two hundred fifty three hundred thousand dollars on his ads to feel like we're getting a really nice ROI which I think is possible over the course of three months and then we can go and expand it if if it does work. So like that's that's like the other like moving upstream to like the higher ticket influencer creator flywheel like that's been a big shift in how we do those things and those deals get signed so much quicker when you don't have event deliverables and shoot day deliverables and organic post deliverables like those deals just get dragged on and on and on because those influencer managers but like a lot of times they're like nitpicking over all these different things like no, no, like let's just boil it down to what actually drives an ROI which for us is pay to ads with creators and influencers and then we can add in those things later on if if we want to and that's been like a really amazing shift for us as a brand and we've been able to sign these like larger creator deals quicker because of just the boil down deliverables. The furthest end is the creators that we are doing like huge bigger activations on and for those we have just like full like we have a biweekly production meeting between our content team who does really function as like an internal you know agency for the whole org where like when we're doing these larger activations like we did a we did this deal with this Canadian NHL player and like we shot like a really high-fi YouTube ad that will do cut downs in metaphor we're doing a bunch of organic social stuff I think he had an event so for those we're just having like you know pretty fully flushed out kickoff calls we're just to make sure that every single team that has a deliverable related to them knows that they have a deliverable related to them and we can create a plan to make sure we're getting the most out of that on that shoot day because that's when we're like going to you know Canada in this case and doing a full-on shoot and I've just seen it too many times where it's like hey we're three weeks out two weeks out from this shoot and like so and so didn't know that we were doing that an hour like rushing to get a paid briefing and you just have to build those like use the build out of process to make sure that you're maximizing those shoot days we talk about incrementality a lot but how do you actually operationalize it to make your business better that is one thing that I've been really leaning in with my team recently and how says played a tremendous role we use it for all of our experiments all of our geo-lift testing but we now use it for our mmm as well I've been a design partner been one of the early design partners on how to see mmm see stands for causal so it's one of the only mmm's if not the only mmm that I've seen that's actually using your causal experiments to build the model and that allows me to just trust the data so much more so it's not a black box but actually informs our roadmap and has been so crucial for allowing us to operationalize around incrementality the house team is world class I can't speak highly enough about them they've also built a really amazing community with some of the best D to C growth operators out there if a few exciting events coming up soon that they call the house growth lab one is an LA and May 19th and the other is in New York on May 21st I highly recommend checking it out if you're in the area if you want to check it out learn a little bit more about cmm go to house.io/operators to start making better data driven decisions today so we should do like an updated process meeting is like that's the hardest part and I'm like jumping back in a little bit more of like how do you you know, how do you get all of this stuff done, especially like launches and whatever, it would be cool to do it. did it one, but yeah, so similar. I mean, that's really exciting to hear. Yeah, we never really did like the big stuff. Like the only time we do events is like, you know, we just did this thing with Emily. Like that was like in the deal and in the contract. Like normally it's really just more of a standard, like influencer thing again, super bloom handles most of our, especially the big ones. For those deals, we are primarily looking for paid usage. If we like when we underrate the deals, we look it that way. We don't expect to be profitable or breaking even on the influencer side. It's just not possible with the rates that you get and whatever the value is at. So the way that we look at it, we have a certain content efficiency, you know, we look for, you know, we talk about it, but we attempt to spend 10 times the amount that we spend on the content on the media. So if we spend 10k, we need to spend 100k behind it. It's at least the goal. What we do is most of this content is a Instagram story first. And it's just, it's how the deals work. It's usually like the most cost effective way to do it. And so what we'll do is whatever those drive organically, we'll subtract that from the cost of the content. So, you know, we had one large creator, 30k her, her, you know, we had to do a three month deal with her. Like we would not do a three month deal unless we had to. The thing that gave us confidence, it was like the biggest deal for us at a time is she was just a known creator who crushed, you know, like, have talked to other brands, which she's, you know, worked really, really well for. I've seen, you know, a lot was just really good fit. So she was first that and like crushed, like she sold out of actually one of our holiday kits, like perfect timing that we wouldn't have sold out of. But it was, you know, again, a three month deal. That was like, that was like a bet in the biggest investment, you know. But so her first Instagram story essentially broke even drove drove, you know, broke in, which we were not expecting. So then like her paid media was just like icing on the cake kind of. And we were able to spend a few hundred thousand on it. But it was great. Her next one, I don't want to say flop, but let's call it like, you know, made a third of the revenue back. So we just subtract that number from the content cost. And so if it was, I'm just making up numbers, was 10K for content. She drove two K. Well, now it's eight eight K. So now we need to spend 80 K on it in 30 days. That's primarily how we look at it. And then every creator influence her handles, you know, renewals differently. But we usually go 30 days, rights. And my growth team when we come up on the end of it, we'll just forecast. And now we have this like cool claw tool that'll do it. But we just forecast what we think the next 30 days content efficiency is. And as long as we're hitting our media KPIs and we forecast that will, we'll keep it in that range, then we'll like go to our influencer team to do a renewal. But that's primarily it. And you know, we've done, I would say two like larger deals. The second one that we did, you and I have talked about has just wrapped up. Same creator you guys have have worked with and you guys did a pretty large deal with. I would say good performance. But we probably like a 17% content efficiency. That's just looking at meta. Like so much of this is the contracts that you're able to get. And we had it on TikTok. We had it on YouTube. Like if the more, I think the biggest thing with this entire episode that we're not talking about enough is like the leverage and the efficiency is like, how can you get the most out of your creative? Like, yes, it has to perform. But like, how can you use it across different channels and have like one work stream? You know, really, really funneling other stuff. But if we just look at meta, you know, 17% not exactly what we wanted. Drows super high net new, not amazing like Darthine. I actually think that's a good thing. But that was like a 30 day. We're like, hey, it was a bet. We don't feel like we lost money. Like, it was a good thing. We're not going to rush to rebook her right away. But let's do it. But we're like, hey, we're two for two on bigger ones. Let's go take a bigger swing. And so now we're, you know, every we have a new hero launch coming out. Like we're, you know, trying to take a big swing and continuing to kind of move up. But it's it's it's primarily that it's it's usually some type of an Instagram story. One or two, you know, occasionally a real. But yeah, like and I've talked to, you know, other brands about it. It's like, it's very, very hard with these large craters to, you know, be profitable on just just one time. So I think you if you're approaching it for ads, you have to do it. We're doing if you're approaching it on like a more organic side, you have to structure the deal in a way where you're able to leverage a lot out of it. Much more so. And I think you guys do a lot of that where you'll get a lot of deliverables from this one creator. Yeah. Well, let me let me ask you a question on the 17%. So you're saying if let's just say to make the numbers easy, it was a $100,000 deal. Are you saying you spent a hundred 17 K on that on paid behind the content? Dude, you're gonna put me on the spot for public math. Sorry. If so, so if it was a 10 K deal, right? 10x content efficiency would be a hundred K. Yeah. That would have been the target. We spent less than that. So we spent probably 70 K on it behind. I see. I see. So it was not bad, but it just wasn't quite at our numbers. 17% is not bad. It was definitely not bad. I mean, that's still seems like you got a huge ROI on it. If yeah, I mean, it's an ambitious target. I don't know that it is. It is. And targets that it is very well, honestly, like when you told me that, you got me thinking about how like we need to measure and what we need to be pushing towards. So that that's been something that I've been talking to the team about in the last month is just like, a reporting on it more regularly, but be pushing harder when we can to make sure we're getting as big of a a big of a multiplier on what we paid them. You know what what I think is is interesting to think about as well, like and we've been talking about creator ads and influencer ads that are creators, which is like that. There's a reason that is such a big part of most brands flywheels because a there's a lot of social proof baked into those types of ads when you have this well-known creator, like endorsing your product and your brand, but be their creators. So like they can make content for you and it's not a big lift on, you know, all you have to do is brief them, source them, source them, brief them and then the balls in their core, which, you know, depending on who the creator is, that can be a good or a bad thing. You know, we've definitely had creators where they've just like signed the deal and they've taken forever to deliver and it's like, you know, now we're sitting here three, six months later. It's like, what's going on? And they're not that organized, obviously. I think where we've created some alpha is actually being able to create really compelling ads with people that have a lot of like respect and authority in the space, but they're not creators. So because we have such a built out production team and system and resource now, like we can we can bring these creators into our studio, make really really great ads with them because while they're not creators, often they're they're still very good in front of the camera. And I think there's so much alpha in that for brands. So I think your ability then to go and say, Hey, this person's not a creator, but like they are an influencer in our space. And if we can make a really good ad with them, I think it can perform while I think that's been one of the areas that we've been able to really excel at in the last year, two years is just like creating really good ads with these non-creator influencers. And we put tons of money behind them and like I just don't see our competitors doing as much of that. I see it here and there, but I think that's one of our our strong suits and like that's what happened with this like hockey player that we activated with. Like he's a hockey player, he's not a creator. Like if we go and brief him and say, Hey, make this ad on your iPhone at home, like he's not going to know what to do. But like we went out to Canada, shot with him, produced a really beautiful well done ad. And I have a lot of confidence that it's going to scale both US and and in Canada. And like we have a bunch of chefs that also fall into that bucket where you know, they're not creators, but they are really like highly respected chefs. And like we've been able to bring them into our studio, shoot with them and just get a ton of scale. I think that's such an important fly way. Like the ability to to do production at scale. Like I think that can take a brand from 50 million to 100 or 100 to 300 because the ability to just shoot ads that your competitors can't. That really just separates you. And I think those ads have a ton of upside on scaling versus like the creator led stuff. You know who do that well? You guys do an incredible job of that. Turtle Box member, we had them on the pod and they had that like ambassador program. Like I think that's really cool. I think blending like creators or celebs or athletes with like you know more of a produced style. I think it's really cool. In an ideal world, like I think what we're trying to do is like we've had a few people we actually wanted to do larger partnerships with and you know numbers came back and it's like hey let's let's let's start first paid social. Let's see how it does. And it just didn't land in a performance. I was like I'm so like we just can't kind of justify that like so like again even our big Emily deal like we started with just the paid social deal you know and it performed well like there was clearly something there like I do think if there is a way and it doesn't always work if those people are in a creator, but I do think that helps to de-risk it a little bit. You know it's still an investment but it's not you don't have to go with a giant multi-six figure investment right at the gate otherwise it's it's a bit and it's a test. Yeah I agree I think that's the consistent theme I'm taking from this episode that we're both doing is like start small and layer on top and grow it. Don't do it the other way because you're gonna send up earning a lot of money if you do it the other way. But I really want to do that. I really want to do that. I'm trying to get better at that which maybe we'll bring us to last point. It is like more of like a produced flywheel. You know how you how you leverage those stuff like I feel like everything we've been talking about has has been what I'd say is bottoms up where it's like bunch of different videos stuff like that volume approach feel the adequate count and you're kind of creating you know you're creating kind of more bottom funnel lower cost things and putting them out of count. But one of the things that we we just did a giant shoot on and talking about production stuff I knew you guys do a really great job with with you know produce things is it's kind of a top-down approach of these hero assets, these TV commercials, YouTube things and are you leveraging that across paid social different channels or part of those like completely separate? - No, that we are. So like I said, every quarter we have this production roadmap that our creative strategy leads, creates and she more or less like pitches me and I say, yep, yep, yep, nope, don't like that. Don't think we should do that. You miss these things that I think we should do. And then that turns into cool. Now we have a finalized plan and then it turns into which of these concepts are most, like which of these concepts are gonna come to life with us producing, like the best with us producing them, whether that's us like just producing them without talent or us bringing talent into the studio and then that creates this like paid media production roadmap where it's like, all right, here's all the productions that we're gonna do specifically for paid in this quarter and then we are just planning those throughout the quarter and it could be, and then some of it is just baked into like our always on stuff. Like every time we launch a new product now, like we do a product hyperl, and like product hyperl, we become a really high performing content pillar for us. So not all of it is like one off net new stuff, but that's like for us that top down approach where it starts with the plan, we map out what stuff needs to get produced, we slot in the production days and then we have these bi-weekly production meetings between our content production team and our creative strategy team. So we can just make sure that we're continuing to move the needle on these because a lot of these concepts, or not a handful of these concepts I should say, like take a long time, like we have a few, a few concepts that are in the final, I'd say like on the five yard line that we've literally been working on for like four months 'cause they're like really high production new concepts that we really wanted to nail and we think they're gonna become like pillars of our YouTube account and ultimately our paid social account. So we're shooting a lot of it like landscape high-fi and then we're doing like making sure that it has like we'll literally have the camera that's like, all right, this is shot for YouTube, but then we have like the four by five zones and the nine by 16 zones on the camera. So we know when we're shooting it that he can get cut down for meta because that's everything we do now when we shoot it in studio is like, we need to get as much juice out of this as possible. So we need to shoot it for meta, we need to make sure it works for vertical and all the like app-loven meta TikTok, we need to make sure like the four by five's for meta feed are there. So like we are very thoughtful about, we're not getting into post-production to be like, oh, this isn't gonna scale to vertical. It's like no, no, we're making sure that scales to vertical video. And that's been, oh my God, so many. Like, I mean, in an eight hour shoot day, like we can, we're at a point now where our, you know, our content team is so good, our had a content's amazing and his team's amazing. Like we can shoot a CTV ad, we can shoot, you know, six different core paid social concepts and then have like a bunch of different hooks on them to iterate and then also have like the landscape format, the vertical format and the four by five format. So that, you know, ends up often turning into like 30, 40 ads when you get to the end of post-production and it's just like crazy what you can do with an eight hour shoot day. But when you have a good plan going into it. - Definitely, dude. So we just did, we have like a, this product that has 30 shades. And so we did like our normal, just like video photo shoot and then we were like, we're gonna need to do something bigger. So we did an open casting, we like, you know, we did this campaign where we invited people. So we brought in, you know, probably 30 people for every shade and like some creators and we actually did scope some creators and you know, contracted some creators to get even like, you know, Bajan just seems content of it, user rights. But mostly just like customer, people wanted to come. And so we brought in a, like we had our normal photo shoot, our team doing it and then we had, I brought in a production, you know, agency. I think I sent it to you and they got 30 hours of footage in a one-issue. I had like three, four cameras rolling, you know, granted we spent in harm and a leg. But I think the thing is, I was like, if we're gonna do this, it's just, you know, A, we need the content, but B, like we just have to really maximize what we can get out of it. So we'll have social teaser, hero video, probably eight different social, like organic social follow-up, you know, assets of it, plus obviously all the B roll. We've got eight YouTube ads, all like, not even like hooks and div, like unique YouTube ads. All of that will be cut for, you know, meta, paid social will have meta, you know, brand-forward, five, six seconds for reach campaigns will have, you know, more, it's still like polished stuff, but more performance oriented meta stuff. So yeah, same thing, we'll probably get, you know, like just for the launch, we'll probably get 50 assets out of this. And then not to just mention all of the iterations and variations we're gonna do, you know. So we'll have it in, you know, we have TVs in our retail store, like we'll have it in there. Like it's pretty incredible what the right team can do with, you know, experience, but also like the right plan going into it. - Well, and we've been able to go from saying, hey, you know, it's a shoot day per quarter to, hey, we only want like two shoot days per year. And that really brings down the cost of the deal, but it's just because we know the playbook now when we go into these shoot days, like we're shooting sometimes like super high-fi, like TV stuff. We're always shooting paid social, we're always shooting organic social. And then we're, there's always, and then we have all the formats and then we have all the different scripts that we want them to hit on. And all the scripts have like hook variations. Like we just have that playbook down, whereas we didn't have that playbook down. So we did like, we would get to the end of the shoot day sometimes like, oh, well, we have one, another one, two months is no worries. But now we have the playbook down. Now the deals don't cost as much. Now we're getting more out of less shoot days and like, it's just optimized over time. And it's just, I've been blown away by how much spend we can get behind all those different assets on all those different channels. Like it's just, we're getting huge ROI's on some of these, some of these deals that like, can't do the like, costs sometimes two, $300,000 per year. I mean, these are like big shafts with like big followings and huge cloud in their space. But like when you can go and spend a million or more on that, on just on the paid stuff, like it's like, that's easy. Like that's not even including all the events they're doing and the organic social stuff they're doing and having hex clad in their restaurants. Like it's just, it's so easy for us to go and rationalize these deals and now we have a playbook for it that, you know, I feel confident. Like I can, when I like see someone, it's like, hey, this person came across someone so desk. Like it takes me like five to 10 minutes to be like, yeah, I think we can replicate the playbook with this person and it just gives me a lot of confidence now in spending some of these larger chunks of money up front because we have that playbook dial. 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Do you guys have like a page on your site where you're like, this is our ambassadors or not? - We call it our culinary council. So if you go to our website, we have this page that's like our Hexclad Partners page and one of the dropped. So it's like the New York Yankees, still Jen and the culinary council is the one in the middle here and it outlines like, yeah, there's basically, I think we have five chefs that are on the culinary council. It's Claire Smith, Nancy, Dominique Gordon and Paul Ainsworth. And again, I would say the only, even Gordon, like he's not a true, he's not a creator in the sense of like a social media chef. Like anytime Gordon's creating content, right? It's on a pretty big production. When he's creating content on its own, it's very much like this style, like Gordon reacts. But none of these people are true creators, which I think again gives us some alpha because we can bring them in and shoot content with them. And it's just like pretty crazy what our content team can do in an eight hour shoot day. - We're literally wrapping up our two big partnerships for this year and I'm like telling my team, tell me when you're ready to talk next year 'cause like this is kind of what I want to do. It's like called an ambassador program. I think actually one of the more important things for running D to C and so much of this is about, yes, you need the right strategy and it's got a perform, but a big part of performance is like the workflow and getting the most value out of it. Not just doing a 300 grand for one shoot, but how do you get as much leverage behind that as possible? - Yeah. And one other thing I'll add on that, what we have found is what performs well on organic social is often very different than a paid ad. But when you're, so we've started actually like briefing creators separately, where like let's say we're gonna activate with a few creators for a new product drop and we wanna do organic like collaborative posts with them and we also wanna run ads with that make ads and run them from their pages and our pages. We'll go and actually send them two different briefs, but generally like if you're paying $5,000 for ODEAL and you say, "Hey, we want you to do two different concepts." It doesn't necessarily like scale just because you're saying, "Hey, here's a paid and an organic post," because they're shooting at the same time in the same setup. Like it's not just 'cause you're doing two the different concepts doesn't mean they're not still gonna double their rate. Like yes, the rate will go up, but there's a way to negotiate and be like, "Hey, we're actually not asking you to do like 80% of what you're doing is gonna be the same." It's just like a different script and a few different visuals. So I think you can often get multiple briefs in with a creator and not necessarily have the rate of that creator. scale with like as the concepts are scaling and that's been something that we've done more recently in the last like six months where it's like most of this time now we are briefing them in separately for organic and separately for paid and we're just getting more bang for our buck by doing that. Totally because they want the number right they're not really because they're a solo operator they're not thinking in terms of gross margin and like price for a video like they're just gonna anchor it to the number and so yeah what we do is you know we'll obviously like offer a little bit less whatever we'll you know let's I'm just making it up let's say like they want 10k like oh five four k was our budget but we could do six if you could also throw this in and so your cost per like yes your total cost is more but your cost per video is actually seem to claim better and it's a win-win the creator perceives that a win as well because it's not that much extra for them to make another video you know they're not thinking about the cost of that they're just thinking about hey what did I get you know what did I charge this brand and I have seen that work incredibly well. Yeah they just made two more grand but your cost per video went from four or five to three yeah 100% if you think about it from their side like they're not thinking like they're not paying somebody they're not thinking okay here's my gross margin here's my cost on this they're just like oh yeah I'll do another video while I'm already doing it you know it's really nothing to me but I made what is it an extra 30 minutes 60 minutes for them yeah 100%