Speaker 1five times faster, five times more productive, five times better. That's the difference in productivity when you're in flow state.
Speaker 2That's Kevin Bailey, CEO of DreamFuel, whose team has coached over a thousand executives at companies like Smartsheet, Greenlight Guru, and Owner.com. And today's conversation is all about how leaders can cascade superior mental performance through their entire revenue org.
Speaker 1If you learn how to control the dopamine of your team, you can push through the hard parts where your competitors will falter.
Speaker 2But executing this properly isn't about corporate wellness retreats. It's about understanding neurochemistry. And Kevin says most leaders are leaving their teams completely exposed.
Speaker 1Once you've deployed the effort molecule noradrenaline for long enough, and there's no dopamine coming in, the brain goes, all right, we need to quit.
Speaker 2We're done. So we get tactical covering specific pre-call routines that directly translate into larger commission checks, why every executive needs a serotonin day, and the reason why typical manifestation advice is completely backwards. If you want a clear path to higher levels of performance for yourself and your team, this episode is for you. Welcome to the. The Revenue Leadership Podcast. A quick PSA, there's a change coming to the Revenue Leadership Podcast. I've moved my show to a new YouTube account. So if you enjoy the show, I recommend you go subscribe so you don't miss any upcoming episodes and a bunch of other content that will be on there. And you can find the new channel at youtube.com slash at Kyle dash Norton. The channel name is Kyle Norton, the Revenue Leadership Podcast. And that's where we're going to be posting all the future episodes, clips, and a bunch of new stuff as well. And if you're wondering, the audio podcast will still be in all of the same places that it's always been on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Snips, and so on. So if you listen in audio only form, no need to do anything. But if you watch on YouTube, now you know where to find future episodes. And while I'm at it, I would love if everybody could support the show by liking, subscribing, reviewing, leaving a comment on whatever platform they listen on. It helps new viewers find the podcast. It's really helpful for us. And I always forget to mention it. If you love the pod, or even like it a little bit, do us a solid and go review it, comment, share with a friend, and that would be most appreciated. And now let's get back to the show. All right, welcome back to the pod. You will see a familiar face in front of you, Kevin Bailey, for a second time in about as many months. So Kevin and I recorded the pod about two months ago, on mental performance and psychology and thinking about our physiology in a different way. And it was the single most popular episode I've ever recorded by a pretty good shot. If I'm just going off of the number of text messages and slacks and emails that I got, given the nature of the conversation, we only got halfway through my docket. I had like two things I wanted to cover with Kevin, which was one, how do executives think about mental performance? And two, how do you think about mental performance? And three, how do you think about mental performance? And four, how do you think about mental performance? And five, how do you think about mental performance? And their own physiology? And then how can we bring this to our teams? And we basically barely got through how we can think of this as executives for ourself. And so I wanted to bring Kevin back to have the second part of the conversation, which is now we are more bought into and starting to build our own practice. How do we cascade this through our organization? What are some of the benefits that we can expect? So I'm excited for this one. You have your own large shoes to fill. So I'm excited. I appreciate you coming back on.
Speaker 1I'm pumped. Thank you for having me again, Carl.
Speaker 2If you haven't already listened to the first episode, go start there. I think that's like important context setting to get the most value out of this one. And in episode one, we talked about how as business people and as humans, we can understand our physiology different. We talked about the default mode network, the amygdala, these four states of the nervous system. And then we unpacked some tools that we can use to get the most value out of this one. And I think that's one of the things that we're going to talk about today. So I'm going to talk about how to modify our own physiology with intention to show up better, more calm, more focused, all of these things in not just a work environment. Obviously, that's the framing here, but throughout our lives. And so today we're going to talk about how to bring some of these practices to our teams, because it is like a bit of a tightrope to walk. And this is probably the part of the owner culture outside. I get the most critical feedback about people. If you do this the wrong way, it can be overstepping. That is the commentary I see sometimes on LinkedIn or Reddit, although I don't go there personally. I've heard the stories that people feel like this is not a leader or a business's place to have an opinion with their employees, which I agree. You can't force this upon anybody. But this is not a leader or a business's place to have an opinion with their The reason that I have become so passionate about this myself and why I've wanted to bring these tools to my team and why it's such a big part of the owner revenue culture is because in retrospect, just desperately wish I was exposed to these things earlier in my career. I didn't come across some of this stuff until my late 20s, early 30s. I was almost 10 years into my career when I really started to develop a gratitude practice and meditation and cold plunging only in the last five years. I was like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. Four or five years. And so I'm passionate about bringing this to the team, but you have to do it in the right way. So we're going to unpack that today. Set up some of the core pillars and principles for how leaders should think about bringing mental performance to their organization and the like do's and do nots. And then we'll get into some of the specifics.
Speaker 1I think you do a really good job with it, Kyle, as the leader does need to embody the practices and they do. You sort of cascade down to the team naturally when the leader embodies the practices and prioritizes them. So I think that's like the first place to start is this isn't something you just like deploy on a team. Like, cool, you guys do this. I'm going to do my thing. If the leader gets jazzed about it and he gets really involved, the team will follow the feedback you gave that maybe people get sometimes about mental performance training is recovery often happens outside the office. So when you're trying to train a team on how to optimize their performance, you do have to at least educate them on how to recover effectively. So you're bridging into talking about hours that, you know, you don't own hours that are, that are off the clock. And I think that's where, where people get a little, little concerned with overstepping. But again, there are ways to work this into a team so that they love it, have a great experience with it, become better humans through it and, um, and increase performance. The first people who will adopt this is going to be your eight players who are trying to squeeze out an extra five to 10% of performance. So same with professional athletes. You know, the reason why this is deployed with professional athletes is because they care the most. They want to win. They're edging out other super high performers and that extra five, 10% means a whole lot to them. The players who maybe are young and inexperienced, but realize that this is a way to catapult them into being an eight player and probably not. Probably gain more like 10, 20% performance. They'll also embrace it. See players who are more or less punching the clock is where you'll have your skeptics and where they'll get your pushback. Um, you know, they're looking to do the bare minimum and get by. So you do have to, and every team has some people like that on it. Um, not that we hire for that. It's just, just a reality. So you'll, you'll want to be mindful about that as you deploy.
Speaker 2And so principle one there is it's got to start with you basically. Like if you're not sort of doing this day to day, then it's, then it's going to be hard to just like bring in a system. And, and if anybody wants that playbook, go back to episode one with, with Kevin. And so say I'm, I'm, I'm convinced, you know, like I, I have these practices myself. Where, where are the best starting points? Like where, where, where are the entry ways that don't feel like they're encroaching that give people the most bang for their buck and are the places that get somebody along this journey with the least friction possible.
Speaker 1I mentioned before the call a good case study to go through, you know, as we're kind of unpacking all this is green light guru. Who's one of our earlier clients, uh, Nick Tippman, who founded tip top ventures and his team with co-founders, David Duran and John Spear. Who introduced me to you as well. They did a great job deploying this through their org early before this stuff was even known. So they had the challenge of, of bringing this stuff to their team and people didn't even know what it was like. Nobody knew what breathwork was like Wim Hof wasn't even really on the scene at that point. So they had to deploy this to a skeptical staff that had never even tried this stuff before. So I think as we're kind of talking about how to do this, we can, we can unpack a little, their story, their story got covered in ink. So it's all public, uh, ink magazine did a nice, nice write-up about it called, uh, at this company, mental health comes first and results follow if anybody wants to Google it. One co-founder, John Spear. He ended up being an investor in our company, was very skeptical about it. And he just kind of sat on the sidelines a little while and watched as we started to work with our sales team. And then he had a breakthrough moment where he was in a call. We were meeting in person that they're at their office. You know, this is early startup days. We went with them all the way from like early days, coworking space through their exit. And he was just in one of the sales team meetings and we would start the meetings off with breathwork. So we'd be sitting there with all the AEs and their sales leader and david and then john was sitting there too and we just do breath work and the first time i did it with the team i kind of i wasn't really sure i was gonna was how it was gonna go i knew how it worked for me and the team was under a lot of strain a lot of expectation people were very anxious and we just did mental reset breathing quick 30 breaths held her breath on the 30th deep breaths and then you could just feel the like the blood pressure in the room just drop and like we all looked at each other and kind of smiled and then david was like okay here's the deal i want to talk about and the team was just in flow state probably for the first time maybe ever and it was just problem solving i was there as the mental performance coach but i was also i'm also savvy in sales so i was i was chiming in when needed but it was just beautiful to watch the team just like kind of like revel in the energy that just from the breath we're just doing breath work together and at the end of that you know the team left and david just looked at me he's like that was a breakthrough moment for everyone thank you that was awesome like where we go from here give them opportunities to have breakthrough moments once they break through they'll embrace it and go i mean obviously they'll do their own research they'll subscribe to a program that you want to put in place whatever whatever it is but until they really start to understand this can be a game changer for myself for my team you know they're gonna they're gonna watch and find out
Speaker 2i think that's a really interesting concept of of giving them an experience to have a breakthrough moment and certainly like that that was the experience that my team had when when we did that visualization you know everybody came out of it being like wow like that was crazy and i feel like i've never felt before and there was like a halo effect for multiple days where people really felt like at the top of their game and we do this sometimes like sauna and cold plunge we're in a month-to-month business so we we like to say it's like we get 12 super bowls a year like the last week of the month the last day of the month is always like a crazy sprint and so usually the the first day of the the new month we take everybody to this place called other ship which is like a sauna cold plunge place in in toronto and that tends to be like a one of those moments where afterwards people walk out of that experience being like wow like i'm buzzing like i'm i'm like feel focused it's enough to crack open the door to where they're like all right like so what's kyle talking about with all this other stuff because i feel great after that thing or you know we've got another group visualization with you guys coming up next week which will be one of those things and i think that's that is a really cool way to think about it well are there other types of like breakthrough exercises or breakthrough activities that you think can give people that that special
Speaker 1thing people don't know how good they can feel and how productive they can feel at the same time they just don't know yeah yeah like people think you know just being high anxiety and just grinding through the day and being dead on weekends and i think that's like normal like if you're in flow state most of the time you feel great you love working you recover well you love your weekends you disconnect all that stuff like you know you're recovering every day you don't need mental health days and i think people people don't understand that so you're like opening their mind to something completely new which is why again you got to give them breakthroughs where they start to go what what was that what happened there that was different are
Speaker 2there other types of activities that you would put in that category like if people were thinking about like what are the options for them when
Speaker 1we do breakthroughs with teams and we can talk deeply about how to execute this on on your own i'm happy to happy to go there and i think that's a really cool way to do that so i think that's a really cool way to go there and i think that's a really cool way to go there and i think that's a really cool way to go there and i think that's a really cool way to go there but we typically start with breathwork and visualization because breathwork is so powerful at shifting state to being centered in equanimity where like you have the most agency and willpower you know i think sam alton was talking about that last last week or in a in an interview is like people need agency they need resilience etc but it's like breathwork zeroes you out gives you that agency and then visualization is such a profound way to shift state any direction you want to take it so yeah um when you do when you pair the two together it it often i mean you experienced it it it opens people wide open to these practices so that's that's one that we really like and you can guide this you know we do teach a leader that learns how to guide a team in visualization is a powerful leader like if you're setting up for say you're um you know you're a sales manager setting up a team for a for a big call you know you got your solutions engineer your future cs person you know your team lead whatever sitting there if you can guide that team through a visualization of the call and like and like dial them in before going beyond just you know how are we gonna handle objections to visualizing handling the objections that's incredibly powerful so yeah find find some activity some like challenge to do together even the frameworks like we discussed on the last call people understanding what fight flight focus and freeze are and being able to sense that in themselves is incredibly empowering there's a private equity company we work with that uses that stuff in deal rooms instead of just arguing with each other about like well here's my opinion on this or that they're able to identify the state their partners are in as they're going through and doing a deal it helps them just be incredibly rational
Speaker 2what about like um like short-term challenge like one of the things that i've been thinking about for our team is like getting everybody to do like a two-week gratitude journaling streak like challenge where you know like a group of people optional a group of people will like commit to doing some prac like some single practice for some period of time and then like checking in is that enough time is that like enough time or would you start somewhere else like is that the right framing
Speaker 1you think i think challenges are fantastic um even better if you can pair those challenges up with some sort of uh biometric tracker speaking that company in green light once they got to the later stages of this um they did just allow anybody on the team who wanted to get like a company-sponsored loop strap they would have hrv percent increased competitions they'd have recovery and strain challenges so they would actually the team would be able to do a practice like gratitude journaling and see how it impacted their hrv
Speaker 2yeah i'm i'm addicted to my aura ring like because you can you can do these tests and now that it's hooked into my open claw instance it can do like way better analysis of the data so like i started taking uh glycine and theanine before bed to sort of understand if like how that affect my sleep structure and then like my deep sleep which is which is something that like i typically would struggle with comparative to all my other baseline metrics like every other sleep metric was so good other than deep sleep i'm like what's going on with this you know i started doing that i told my open client instance like this was the date i'm starting and then two weeks later i had to pull pull the data and it's like super compelling so i think that is another interesting one i hadn't thought about sponsoring biometrics for the team that that's a that's another cool idea yeah opted on
Speaker 1their own i mean obviously it's it's going to help them understand recovery it's it's a great tool to implement if you're doing this on your own uh and even if we're involved like you know we we ask you can you do this it's it's just to see the metric and understand when you're doing mental performance you're optimizing for flow state and flow states associated with hrv so if you materially increase your hrv like 20 you've materially increased the time you're in flow state that's that's like you're talking about measuring this like how do you measure this you know there's there's tools that are built to measure like pillars of mental performance like resilience and confidence are questionnaire based but if you have you if you're doing that because that's associated with flow state and that is the key number one metric you're going for how do you raise the percent of your team in flow state for longer periods of time what
Speaker 2are the other metrics that
Speaker 1we should be trying to move i mean except hrv is the best correlate we did build an app that measures the pillars that you want to look at resilience you know how fast does a team bounce back from adversity when there's a call that goes sideways do they jump on the next call strong or are they carrying the energy from the last call into the next call obviously the only way to measure that is with questionnaire at this point i want to have brain scans going on we can look at to see how the networks are responding but you know the ability to zero yourself back out after a tough call really important to track and measure it in whatever ways you can even if even if just anecdotally so look at
Speaker 2resilience no office
Speaker 1fmri machine is necessary i don't know um but you know i mean pro sports teams are doing stuff like that you know they're looking at when they measure a group flow by looking at the dynamics of different brains and they're looking at the dynamics of different brains and they're looking at the working together so we're obviously not there yet i don't know if we ever will be but but yeah i mean resilience is a big one confidence is associated with resilience obviously but that's a that's a big one to look at and try and measure anecdotally like you could build questionnaires for your team looking at confidence discipline so it's like the ability to stay on task when it's boring to understand the triggers of dopamine that allow you to stay on task is a topic we could talk about some people just can't hack that but that can be learned like would you
Speaker 2encourage the the team to just like keep a journal of these things on their own because that because you're not going to get people giving you very honest answers about their own discipline to you as like the leader and so would you basically say hey you know like build yourself a journal for this one thing and track it every day over a period of time is that the right experience yeah and that's basically how we how
Speaker 1we've done with our own app is we just we text them questions you know just short questions to look at the pillars
Speaker 2and do you aggregate that data or that's all just for the reps own like understanding the leader
Speaker 1will have aggregate of all the reps obviously they can't look at it individually that would cross a line but yeah the reps have their own personal data or they can dive in and kind of see how they're ebbing and flowing it's really interesting to look at how those metrics change like when you put a new leader in place or go through some sort of challenge super super super fascinating to see that that stuff
Speaker 2move shifting gears a little bit so part of this is like okay so breakthrough moment encourage people to start to track some of this data or track it at an organizational level if you have the tools like your app for example how do you think about shifting the culture because that's what it's going to take for for it to be sustained so what are the things that that uh make the biggest longest standing impact there
Speaker 1yeah it takes time because the first thing it's important because it is an organic thing you know that the team's going to adopt this as you go look for where your a players are and then deploy techniques and tools to those a players so i always like to start with the direct managers so if the companies have a certain size your frontline managers that have a bunch of reports and are sometimes jumping on deals their schedules are just totally overloaded and they're not going to be able to do that they're not going to be able to do that they're not going to be able to do that they're not going to be able to do that they're not going to be able to do that they're not going to be able to do that they're not going to be able to do that tend to be tends to be one of the highest stress positions on a sales team that's the people who if you're going to give them coaching you're going to work with them directly you're going to really lean in get them to embrace it and then they'll start to be able to performance coach their team members so it's like you're not just doing deal review you know they're asking questions about recovery they're asking questions about you know okay you seem a little off or you may be in a flight response quarterly visualizations is a great way to keep giving the breakthrough moments so getting your team together doing a lot of work and then you're going to be able to do that doing breathwork and doing visualization to kick off quarters or kick off months because like i said that's that's the biggest opportunity to get breakthroughs once they get the breakthrough then there's you know we we look at 50 different tools but there's more than that and that's kind of where people start to dive in you give access to everything and they start to really understand you know what do you need to do to be in flow state constantly or at least as much of the time as possible and it's a it's a lot to learn yeah
Speaker 2yeah and advice that i would give to folks is just pick one thing like don't try to don't try to bring multiple things to your team at one time start with one practice or another start with meditation or gratitude or like sleep hygiene just pick one thing and try to try to make that a part of the zeitgeist in the organization and you can you know deploy it as training and then do like a contest around it or like bring that as as part of your weekly team meetings but one thing at a time like it's super hard to get to to change your sleep habits that feels to me like one of the best starting points if you wanted to like really change how your team operates just like help them learn to sleep better and i like matt walker's three two one like don't eat three hours before bed don't drink two hours before bed and no phone an hour before the phone is where people will will struggle but you know or even if you do like the blue light blocker glasses like the proper like really orange ones i think are the only ones that really work but if you can teach people to start going to bed at the same time every night getting eight full hours doing doing like a the right routine the best practice there is like do a sleep meditation before you go to bed like that just brings your heart rate way down and and what you what you notice is you're like your sleep structure changes so much doesn't just help you get to sleep but you like your structure changes yeah you
Speaker 1you're trying to build habits habits take 30 to 90 to 120 days sometimes to to put in place if you try and put seven habits in place at the exact same time you're going to fail all seven if you pick one and you get real serious about it you'll shift the brain never wants to rewire it doesn't want to embrace these new practices you know it doesn't want to learn to be better the brain goes we've survived this long why would we do anything different you know like you're doing great why would you change anything think about it like your brain is a giant interstate you know and it's like blow up that lane over there and move that on ramp over there you think the brain wants to do any of that restructuring it's like no so it will fight you on these things so you have to be very disciplined about sticking on the one thing until it becomes reflexive and habitual or automatic and then move on to the next thing so really becoming great at mental performance is it it's kind of like a lifelong journey and it's something that that you'll get benefits quickly your team will see benefits quickly but it's like the human operating system like you said it's just not something that's taught to people it's not something that you can do it's not something that you can do it's not something you learn in elementary school even though you should be taught it we don't so you give your you give your team the gift of teaching them the human operating system you know when they're at your company great it's going to help them be better parents it's going to help them perform better at work it's going to help them enjoy their lives more they're going to learn what flow state is what it's not and it changes everything but yeah it's one thing at a time
Speaker 2yeah my kids go to montessori and they actually like weave some of this stuff in into it and they come home and they'll like just mention something i was like where did you learn that like oh you know miss jessica's going to be a great teacher and she's going to be a great teacher and she's taught taught us and it's like i'm so so happy because it's it is so badly needed so i went to montessori i didn't talk about any of this so i'm glad i'm glad things are changing yeah i mean we're in marin county so they're definitely like uh it's a different different world here you like our school back in toronto didn't um and so going back to this question how do you how do you move the culture so it takes time you're deploying it with your a players we're thinking about like one thing at a time what would be the one tool or area that you would tell people to take off the shelf like if so say say i as a leader i'm i'm there let's just assume like i'm doing a bunch of these practices myself i'm living it which is which is step one where would you tell people to start is it meditation is it gratitude is it sleep is it like what what would be the place that has the most bang for your buck and and has the chance to get people to like you know go down uh go down that
Speaker 1path we covered a little bit of this before but when you crush a pre-call warm-up that's that's a breakthrough because it will materially change the way you'll perform and that will impact your dollars you know if you can get a rep or a manager to do pre-call warm-ups that's a that's a massive moment because you think about okay well i'm sleeping better i have more energy i just made you know thirty thousand more dollars in my commission check this quarter like which one's going to motivate people more may you remind people the pre-call warm-up you do a little bit of breath okay so take like 30 30 deep breaths and then actually we didn't get into this i like to use journaling for rehearsal imagery or visualization so maybe
Speaker 2just go through this whole framework
Speaker 1because we got into it a little bit but like yeah i'll give a pre-call pre-call warm-up that i think will will be a game changer um for anybody who does this for and it doesn't i don't care if you're like a rep working on deals or you're a ceo trying to sell your company if you do this before those those big deal calls you're gonna be it's gonna it should blow your mind the difference cool first thing you got to do is get an equanimity you got to center yourself you know before you get into a call i mean truth of matters i did this this morning for this podcast you know um you you have to get yourself centered like you might be thinking about all the different ways this call could go all the different ways this performance could go um by the way hugh jackman uses this for what it's worth um before he does any performances so he talks about that on the tim ferris podcast um calls it daily design does it every single day every single day picks the big performances and then journals as if they're already over so take a journal out so do your breath work get centered right that's to put you in equanimity that's to get by get you out of flight get you out of freeze maybe you're procrastinating doing some prep work or something like that so so get yourself back centered using breath work 30 deep breaths big belly breaths about a second in between each breath you know fast uh and then hold your breath on the 30th you'll feel your state start to shift into equanimity meaning you'll be at the center of the grid we talked about last time and then at that point put on some music that fires and that's the cadence like like through the mouth yep your buddha bellying your belly's going out i like to put my hand on my stomach just to make sure i'm taking really deep
Speaker 2breaths so that's a pretty like rapid pace for for okay but just explain that a little more i i i yeah about a because my i would typically do like a box breath like if i'm going into something if i can
Speaker 1like so box breathing is i'm thinking what i'm thinking pre-call warm-up i'm thinking as efficient as humanly possible okay so if i do 30 deep breaths relatively rapidly i can shift myself into a centered state in about two minutes if i'm using box breathing it takes me about five now box breathing is a different kind of state there's different neurotransmitters and peptides involved it's going to make you feel a little bit different but for for my personal preference 30 deep breaths rapidly shift my state as quickly as i can and then you hold your breath for how long i'll hold my breath for about as long until i feel the need to breathe so for me that's maybe 45 seconds to a minute and a half depending on where my nervous system is at like if i had a really hard day before then i'll hold my breath for for uh shorter periods okay so it's until you like really need to breathe yeah until you're like all right i need to breathe okay at that point you know you're centered now you're ready to start initiating some type of visualization activity so at that point um i like to juice it up a little bit by the way before i did the breath work i be bounced around, done some pushups. shifts or just kind of like stretched just to like you know sitting down is not good yeah um yeah so done all that again this is really rapid i'm at about two and a half minutes i'll put on music that that gets me going um i think there's like a song higher and higher it's probably it's jackie robinson i'm not sure who it's by but anyway it's uh it's like ghostbusters theme song or something from back in the day not the actual ghostbusters theme song but it's like the one i can't remember the scene but it's a big song from ghostbusters and it's just really good a really good vibe turn on a song you really like that pumps you up and then you take the journal and then you date it at the top that the meeting's over so you could like date it the next day and you're playing with yourself a little bit you're playing with the subconscious mind at that point you journal like the call's already over with so you talk about the outcome how you showed up journal about any potential objections how you handle them cleanly and just basically go it's this is rehearsal imagery this is what athletes do before anything that they're going to do that's going to be really tough and you just you just basically journal about all the behaviors you did if it's substantially far out from the call then you can journal about elite elite prep behaviors you know i did those hard discipline things i didn't want to do and it paid off big time so this is called mental contrasting where you're going back and forth between the outcome the awesome thing that happened that obviously didn't happen yet but you want it to happen and then the things you did that you didn't want to do and you're going back and forth between the outcome the awesome thing you did to make sure that
Speaker 2outcome happened okay so mental contrasting is is juxtaposing the great outcome with the hard work to
Speaker 1get it exactly okay cool because the great outcome basic so the subconscious mind again we may have talked about the last one has a tough time differentiating between what's well imagined what's really happening so as you start to imagine a positive outcome it's going to juice dopamine up it's going to send serotonin into your nervous system like you're going to start to feel all those good flow state neurotransmitters that they're going to make you feel great neuroplasticity starts to happen because those neurotransmitters are correlated with neuroplasticity as you raise emotion the brain starts to change that's why you can remember all the best and worst things that have ever happened to you so easily create a lot of neuroplasticity so you have neuroplasticity going because you're actually imagining a positive outcome so the brain's reacting like it's happening then you use that neuroplasticity to reinforce and set let me talk about this last time dude the ras the reticular activating system up to go do the right things cool so you talk about the behaviors in the journaling um if you really want to take it to the next level I did this for an entire year when I was um I basically was CEO of my first startup and then hired a CEO then I went and sold on the West Coast for a year by myself Enterprise and I did this for every single call my close rate about doubled but I would always visualize the case study so in my journal I wouldn't go out a day I would go out like a year it was my company so I was really passionate about closing these deals and I'd be like just talking about like the case study we did with Microsoft or whatever I'd be like yeah just you know my my main prospect at the time was just singing our praises on video just talking about change their culture change their team whatever um so you could also just journal about like the case study but just doing that rehearsing the things you need to do like that to where you're not saying okay I need to respond to this objection this way and you're super logical about it you actually get emotional about it like it happened you go it puts it puts the elite behaviors on autopilot again why all
Speaker 2athletes do it momentum is a powerful tool for turning sales and customer conversations into go-to-market intelligence using gen AI it extracts analyzes and automates customer intelligence across your GTM org the best part it's not a new platform for your team to adopt it integrates seamlessly with your existing stack or it can straight up replace your conversational intelligence tool at owner we ripped out Gong and one all-in on it it writes back to our Salesforce directly captures forecast and churn risk auto fill CRM fields shares product signals and tracks sentiment companies like cursor Zscaler ramp and 11 Labs use it every day check it out with a free trial at momentum.io yeah like the visualization that you and I did or Alex and I did like a little more than a year ago we were coming into like a fundraising push and the whole visualization was like what's the party like what's the party like what's the party like what's the celebration what what's the uh like what emotions you feeling like who are you talking to and uh it was such an like such an extraordinarily like realistic feeling like you you I had experienced the outcome already and and then you know your body naturally is going to is going to take the actions to reinforce what it believes to be true like like sometimes you hear people give the woo-woo version of that it's like oh like you know imagine it and the universe will give it to you but it's actually you know like uh the neuroscience version of it is if you if you attach yourself and you believe in this outcome and you make that a part of your identity your brain just like naturally takes a bunch of subconscious actions and move you closer to that thing because you know wants to rationalize it wants to
Speaker 1fulfill the prophecy
Speaker 2um
Speaker 1but I think it's important to note there you know when you talk about the kind of version versus the neuroscience version the neuroscience version is use that great energy you cultivated to reinforce hard behaviors like don't just visualize the win use the juice from the win to reinforce all the Elite behaviors you need to do to win that's the difference between kind of the version and the neuroscience version so that's that's just a really important point it's great to visualize the win that's that's great but like gotta reinforce the tough behaviors limbic friction is going to be there like that's the part of our brain that pushes against creates procrastination and stops us from like doing the tough behaviors so use the visualization to make sure you're going to do the hard things
Speaker 2can you Define limbic friction like what do you what do you mean by that I think that's an interesting uh concept to unpack yeah
Speaker 1like the the limbic system so the part of our the emotional brain um pretty much makes our decisions like we we like to think we're rational decision makers right but the emotional brain is is making most of our decisions unfortunately so when the emotional brain isn't aligned with an outcome um isn't isn't aligned with a tough behavior you have to fight that you have to get through that you have to learn how to basically do it anyway and that's what that's where all these tools can help you win when yeah it's like most people are lazy the brain doesn't want to expend energy particularly you think about a situation like that let's talk about why people quit real quick so you know if you think about most of our Neurology was wired and in tribal days a long time ago we'd be you know hunting animals on the planes or something and you know if you were if you were with your your team you know trying to to hunt an animal for an entire day and you didn't see any animals and it gets to dark and you decide to continue you know trying to get that animal what might happen you're in danger because now it's dark and you're at risk yeah so you might might get attacked by a predator so the brain started to develop like kind of a ratio between dopamine and noradrenaline and once you've deployed F the effort molecule noradrenaline noradrenaline for long enough and there's no dopamine coming in the brain goes all right we need to quit we're done like you didn't get any reward like we're done and to be able to fight that you have to learn how to control dopamine on your own so tools like visualization where you can actually give yourself dopamine um is key I think it might be worth talking about dopamine triggers and like how to how to control your team's dopamine because that's a pretty important part of deploying this
Speaker 2stuff as a team live just about to go there so so yeah talk more
Speaker 1about it so dopamine's the molecule motivation it's it's why we have a society built the way it is everything we've we've figured out and the expansion of Humanities because we have a great dopamine reward system people always talk about the downside of dopamine but you know if you want a winning team you better figure out the upside of dopamine and optimize for it I know you're you guys are working on office stuff right now is that right
Speaker 2Kyle yeah we just moved offices for like the third time in 15 months or something and you're trying to optimize that environment right yeah we moved into like a purpose-built space that has a bunch of these habits designed into the environment as much as
Speaker 1we can yeah exactly so um thinking about how to cultivate dopamine within your team and people cultivating within themselves is as powerful as you're designing that new office as you already know and are thinking about but yeah let's talk about some of the triggers of dopamine okay yeah tell me about it serotonin is worth talking about as well because it's complementary to dopamine um but with dopamine you're thinking about the triggers so progress is a big dopamine trigger recognition is a big dopamine trigger achievement is a big joke dopamine trigger when you think about a lot of Silicon Valley high growth Tech companies they get dopamine on tap because there's so much stories being written about them and like Tech crunch and places like that so when a company goes through a tough moment and they're not getting those stories it kind of robs a team of dopamine so a team has to know how to or a leader has to know how to regulate their own dopamine so if you talk about those first few we talked about so recognition achievement a great thing a leader can do to help a team thrive during really challenging is learn how to effectively recognize effort so if you can effectively recognize effort within within the team you pulse the team dopamine iteratively even during um moments where they're not naturally getting it you know maybe they're they're having a tough quarter or something's going sideways then you can you can actually regulate dopamine on on
Speaker 2your own you should and could do this even when things are going well so this is this is one of the principles that you know i i taught my leaders like years ago when we do shout outs we don't we'll yeah talk about the outcome because we're we're we're uh spotlighting achievement but then talk about everything that went into it so like in our we've got a cx shout outs channel when people hit quota when people hit a personal best this is another thing people need to do more of on the recognition side recognize somebody not just being for the best in their segment because that's only one person but like recognize everybody who set a personal best so like in our town in our town halls anybody who's had a best month ever like a personal best month ever they're on like a shout out slide so you can be number one in the segment but if you have four other people in that segment who all did their personal best like they deserve that as well and and so then when we do these shout outs like i'll read one so this is one of the aes it's like there's a version of sales where people show up follow the script and check boxes sarah has never been that person what's to this promotion is something that's harder to coach than any framework it's genuine fire got uh came into this new sangred hungry got knocked off her personal rhythms and habits during the one of the busiest stretches of the year and instead of making excuses she sat down with it looked at her personal life made some hard choices and reviewed her demos honestly identified and took accountability where she was rushing and chose to go deeper and lean in and learn and then we talk about like some frameworks that we've just talked or that we've just dug into yeah the slump wasn't a detour it was part of the training and process and and so like this is a rep who like crushed her segment just got promoted but like talking about hate entering in that that previous segment and the challenges and how to overcome that challenge and the mentality like that's the thing we want to reinforce beautiful exactly it's like i don't even have to mention this anymore this is just like a self-reinforcing thing if if if like a new manager came in and did a quota shout out that was like outcomes or or externally based on that and i think that's a really good point and i think it's a really good point if if if like a new manager came in and did a quota shout out that was um then somebody would be like hey by the way like this is how we write quota shout outs um because that's the thing that matters and that's the thing i tell people this all the time i was like at some point owner is going to have a bad stretch and i actually thought this was going to be last year i was like oh i bet some competitors are going to do some slim like stuff and i just we don't be on this streak that i was like the the like slump is coming for us and i was like oh i bet some competitors are going to do some slim like stuff and i just we don't be on and so i've been trying to prepare people for that inevitability because it's easy to have a good culture and like it's easy to to for things to feel good when you're like smashing the number everything exactly but and and we had one of our harder quarters in q1 like it was the hardest we had it was the deepest we had to dig we have still never missed a quarter i will say that but it was this was the deepest we had to dig to get there but like the team was the team was prepared they were inoculated already because of all the stuff and like falling in love with the process yeah
Speaker 1that's called being anti-fragile i mean there's a great book but like you're trying to build out within your team and by doing what you're doing which is recognizing the effort of individuals not just the primary winner you're building that in if you can't control the dopamine of your team you're vulnerable to these slumps the slumps can take you over if you learn how to control the dopamine of your team using tools like this then you have to get through the hard parts where your competitors
Speaker 2will falter yeah the the other place i see this be like so important is you know sales there there is a lot of uh there are a lot of influences out of your control there there's a lot of luck involved the luck is you can be very lucky in the short term but generally luck is about equal in the long term and like jim collins did a bunch of short-term swings in luck you get like a bluebird deal out of nowhere you're in a bad territory like some of that luck can sustain for months like if you're in a mid-market enterprise segment you get a bad patch like that's bad luck and that might stick with it could stick with you for a year but in the long run you will eventually get a great patch with too low of a quota and you you jim collins talks about return on luck return on luck is basically when you get good luck you take crazy advantage and when you get get bad luck you're able to uh minimize the the damage i find that the more if you are too much about the external validation and and awards when bad luck happens and your identity is about performance and not about progress and about the the the the journey then that bad luck spirals and you can get into a place where like a bad day or a bad week becomes a bad week or a month or a quarter and it gets out of hand versus you know like if you can sit down with a rep and they've you know they had two deals they were counting on blow out and like just like a couple bad things have happened if you have trained people to to be uh inputs focused and journey focused and learning and progress focused then you can you can as a manager sit down and be like well like are you happy with how you showed up this week did you do the right things are you happy with how you ran those deals like yeah yeah i'm happy with how you ran those deals i'm happy with how you ran those deals yeah like i ran the deal as well i like there's no reason i should have lost this deal like okay well just like do keep doing that and like you know it'll turn around but but you can't have that conversation if you've only beat the drum of only the top person in the segment matters and only the the number matters like it you you don't have that ability to like help people through the downs and which is why like we i think have shown a really interesting ability to like get people out of their slump and like we've had tons of our best very best performers at the company like uh award-winning performers have been on what we call get on track plans which is our
Speaker 1version of a pip it's beautiful to see people pull through pips and weather those storms and they can you i mean whether you understood the the dopamine dynamics and you probably did or not the way you're doing that is perfectly aligned
Speaker 2what else should people be doing to to build this foundation to to give people control of their own dopamine what can i do as a leader
Speaker 1i tell leaders you need one serotonin day at least every two weeks we are constantly striving constantly using the dopamine reward system constantly on that treadmill dopamine's a molecule of motivation it's not the molecule of presence it's not the one that helps us show up and really pay attention to a person you know and really listen you know open our hearts and kind of just be there with them in that moment which is what's required to be elite at sales and we also deplete our our reserves we deplete our dopamine or deplete noradrenaline um you know we run on cortisol a lot so we we tax our systems a lot so an elite performer figures out somehow how to wedge a day into their schedule every couple weeks that is not dopamine related so yeah obviously you're running dopamine all the time regardless but um if you can wedge a day in like that outside of your sleep schedule just a day to be practicing tools that are related to serotonin then you give your chance yourself a giant chance to recover um and that keeps your dopamine reserves and all the other peptides associated with it high as possible so that you can be in flow state as much as possible in the other you know 13 days outside of the 14 so again i call that a serotonin day and i actually um so i have four kids and like um my wife and i alternate on it so one week one weekend day out of every two weeks is her day and then we rotate that's my day so basically every other week we're rotating between days and you think about serotonin it's the opposite of dopamine so it's like uh dopamine is everything's time bound you know it's goal bound so it's it's associated with goals you think like time and goals so if you think of like a kid just kicking a soccer ball for the pure joy of it that's a serotonin activity you turn you turn kicking a ball into soccer now you have a dopamine activity so you spend a day like you're a kid on the first day of summer with nothing with nothing you need to do you wake up when whenever you wake up naturally you do whatever would be enjoyable for you that doesn't involve dopamine wasting activities we covered on the last episode like looking at your phone a lot you know gambling you know shopping binge watching things but you just do more like uh you know maybe you do a nice long workout or a nice slow cooked meal or go on a walk or things like that meditate just very chill activities that aren't associated with time and aren't associated with goals you do that for a full day thinking a full eight hours that will that's like a nervous system reset okay just reboot everything and what you'll notice is the next day you'll be in a level of flow that will blow your mind and that will maintain and what he's gonna say every two weeks weeks is because that's about the right duration. If you could do it. every week, that's great. But if you can do it every two weeks, it gives you something to look forward to. It gives you kind of a point to recharge and recover for people that work really hard. Like I know, you know, you do, um, it's, it's a, it's a great tool to keep the dopamine system fully charged.
Speaker 2So you do the, with your kids in like around, I would
Speaker 1say I don't spend a ton of time with my kids on that day. Um, I might take like, like take one of my kids fishing or something like that, you know, just like do something very chill in nature. Um, but yeah, I mean, Ashley, my wife has the kids fully covered on that day. I have no parenting responsibilities, no, um, you know, nothing like that. It's, it's, it's, it's literally a day where I get to feel like a child, which is different. I don't know if I'll get this every two weeks, but well, I, yeah, like I said, I mean, my, my wife's pretty into this stuff too. And once we kind of talked about it and understood that we both needed it, that was when we pulled the trigger and figured it out. And it was tough. We had to kind of, you know, she worn it in, but now we're in a nice rhythm with it and doing that for probably a decade.
Speaker 2The phone has to be gone for it. I, I, I've been thinking about this for like weeks now, just having a day where I like, I don't open Slack or my computer or whatever at all. But like that might make me more on edge to just like, not like not open my email or Slack, but I like, I know I need to do it.
Speaker 1You might feel a little bit of that. The first few times you do this, you might feel it sometimes when you come off of a 13 days and you just been pushing as hard as you possibly can, you're going to come into that. You're going to be like, Oh, I need to do this. That's the point is like, you know, you're giving your nervous system a chance to live, not under those pressures for just a moment to replenish the system. You might find that you might for the first few hours, just be like cycling through a bunch of thoughts that never got attention. So you think about meditation when you're like watching the thoughts, letting them go, you're kind of like doing that in real time at the beginning of this day, there'll be a few times where you're kind of lost in thought about things that you just needed to think about. You know, you're kind of suppressing and pushing off. I like to tell people when I'm kind of training people on how to do this, the big pro for you, Kyle, and for any other leaders or anybody else, frankly, is you're going to try not to think about work stuff and you're going to go do things you enjoy. So you're shifting your state into a nice place. You're trying not to think about work stuff, but what's naturally going to happen is creative thoughts are going to start to bubble up. So we call this bottom, bottom up thinking versus top down thinking, top down is like dopamine networks. You're pushing your, your, your, you know, forcing your way through life. Serotonin is a lot more easygoing, but all creative thinking comes from bottom up. So you're those aha moments. It's basically like, um, and I like to talk about shower moments, you know, where you're in the shower and you have great ideas coming. You'll get that the whole, you'll get that the whole day. Like you'll be off on a walk or something and you'd be like, Oh, that's because you gave yourself a whole day without pressure and the brain will naturally start bubbling up. Okay. This is how you solve this problem. This is how you'll solve this problem. Um, it's a great day just for creative thinking. So when I'm talking to leaders, like you have to do this because you need that creativity, you know, in, in, in the age of AI, it's all the quality of our thinking, not so much about the grind, you know, it's like how high quality can your thinking be? These types of days are really important for that.
Speaker 2I struggle with this so much individually. Like even when we go on vacation, like I like want to be filling my time with either, you know, like doing activities with kids or, or like, you know, exercising or reading a book. Like I can't, just like sit, you see people sitting around a pool just like doing nothing or like reading a fiction book. I like get so stir crazy if I'm not making progress on something. Like I gotta be reading, like I want to read a bio or a business book or like I, I, but like I enjoy that. Like I, like that gives me that like making progress gives me a lot of fulfillment. And so when I'm like not making progress on, yeah, it's a dopamine trigger. Progress is a dopamine trigger. Yeah. Yeah. Even if I, I would rather clean than sit around, like I would rather do like on the weekends, like I have to find some activity to like fill my time. And maybe that's the whole point of this, but cause I don't find myself seeking, like I don't, I'm not like, yeah, I want to, I want to chill and do nothing for a day. Like that's sort of, well, it scares me.
Speaker 1Let's talk about the difference. Again, the kid kicking the ball is a serotonin activity. Soccer is a dopamine activity. So it is learning to be present without striving. You can clean the house. You do it at a slow, relaxed pace without a big focus on the outcome. They talk about this in mindfulness, you know, like enjoy washing the dish slowly, you know, wax on wax off karate kit, whatever, you know, like you immerse yourself in that exercise. Um, if you're doing, um, like I said, slow cooked meal, you know, make a great meal for your family, you know, take your time, give yourself like three hours to do it and then just like do it. Perfectly, but not where you're trying to achieve some great outcome. Just enjoy. Maybe you're with your wife cooking with her, you know, like just enjoy the banter and just doing it slow. Um, you know, slow, smooth, smooth as fast. Like just give yourself that opportunity to do things at an unrushed and unhurried pace. That's as close
Speaker 2to, that's, that's like probably my serotonin activity where I like will actually shut off and lock into something.
Speaker 1Okay. If you enjoy it and you're not, you know, sitting there gambling, sports betting the entire time. Yeah. You know, I know a lot of people, yeah. You, you enter sports betting into watching sports. Now you're deep in dopamine, you know? Okay. Cause surprise is a big surprise. Novelty variety are also massive dopamine triggers. So with gambling, you get all of that. We embed a bunch of
Speaker 2those principles into our spiffs and contests. Like there's always these things called wrinkles. So like people will know it's like, oh, we're gonna do a week long spiff and then like, oh, we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff. And then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then
Speaker 1we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff. and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff. and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff and then we're going to do a week long spiff
Speaker 2and uh and once you start to like commit to some protocol that gives you some of that traction then people get pulled in you know you can see now and there was no sleep there was no like tracking data or whatever back then i don't think um oh no there was because my my uh my sleep watch scores which was like the old school app i used back then i went from like mid to mid 500s to 600s to like now my my sleep scores were in the top one percentile of all like sleep watch users and but i just felt like i could take on the world i was like what was i doing like what the like i can't believe i felt like that it's crazy again people don't know how good you can feel
Speaker 1like people yeah
Speaker 2this this is where like the contest or the whatever is is i think a good idea because you just need to give people enough like enough of a taste to be like oh damn like yeah i can i can if i do if i make like one important change three to one or i give up my give up the post 11 a.m coffees or like eliminate the best one is just like stop drinking for two weeks and look at what happens to the data that that's an easy way to get somebody going from like 20 drinks a week to five yeah
Speaker 1exactly i think of this how do we deploy this stuff in teams i don't think it's super complicated i mean you've been saying it every quarter you know we've covered a few things today there's plenty others roll it out to the team in a gamified fashion you know some sort of contest something like that give people opportunities for breakthrough moments and once you have somebody have a breakthrough moment they're going to take it on themselves to learn these tools now you can obviously deploy a program in that they can grab at that point um or they can go off and do it on their own um but yeah it's it's it's just and you can think about it for yourself and i can think about it for myself personally the way i feel right now like my life right now and the way i've felt over the last month if i compared that to the way i felt 15 years ago when i was making my first startup my prior self would be like wtf what the hell happened why are you so much happier why are you so much more in the zone why are you so much more productive like and it happens iteratively and incrementally over years you just slow you just slowly implement these tools one at a time you know and then you then they they compound and it's like you're in flow state nearly all the time or at least it feels that way i think that's one of
Speaker 2the most important messages is just try to take on one thing like you trying to do it all will lead you basically nowhere but try to try to take pick like one high impact habit and and like really commit to it for a series of weeks and see where and see where 30 days minimum own the habit i mean yeah yeah yeah whether it's sleep or the pre-call warm-up that you're talking about or gratitude practice or like and start with something lightweight that's the other i don't know if you agree with me on this but like start with something that's light weight and start with something that's light weight and start with the one that has the highest impact for the lowest effort because oftentimes if you're like hey pick up meditation it's like 10 or 15 minutes every day and you got to find time and if it's like not natural for you or you like live with a roommate or like you're on the go constantly it's sort of awkward to like find that moment and it's difficult to fit in versus you can you can make you can make like a couple smaller changes that give people the taste and be like oh maybe maybe there's something to this um that i think is is like the that's the that's gets the ball rolling and then i'm sure potentially that activates your dopamine systems like want to do more of it yeah that's how the reward system works yeah want to do more of it and then you know like if i compare my like daily hat like if you had told again like 10 or 15 year ago me my like daily rituals they'd be like you're out of your mind like how do you how do you have time for any of it but you just like fit in the little things and you're like oh i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that it's like oh like like i sleep like i tape my mouth shut and i wear like glass i wear these glasses before i go to bed and i wear an eye mask and then i do this and i do then i got this eight sleep mattress like if you did add up all of these things it does seem like sort of wild but you just add like one thing at a time and and like slowly it adds up and i don't think about it like i don't think i'm like oh i gotta remember to put on my glasses or i gotta remember to take the glycine i gotta it's just these are just they just become your your baseline and so you're not it doesn't feel like it's cognitive overload or juggling too much
Speaker 1not at all if you build them over time like you have um and yeah the benefit is obvious 5x productivity that's the difference in productivity when you're in flow state 5x five times faster five times more productive five times better like more of that please so you put it you do spend a little time maybe you spend 15 minutes meditating or you have some practices you do before bed or when you wake up to get 5x productivity i'll make that trade anytime
Speaker 2yeah for sure um so the last question i wanted to ask about like shared language so one of the one of the things that's so important is you know building into your organization like a new shared language around these topics like where do you encourage people to start um to build this internally so that like it starts to become more of just like a topic that is always on the go the shared
Speaker 1language comes from neuroscience and performance psychology so you don't have to like reinvent the wheel you know you don't uh there's there's no ness like woo concepts aren't needed anymore there's things that are either validated or not validated so you can pull everything from neuroscience you don't need to go off and get like a degree in the field like i did um you can you just watch huberman and pull stuff down from there however you want to do it where's like the
Speaker 2first place you'd encourage people to go so you want to get people health pilled or performance psychology i really like huberman
Speaker 1man he does a great job taking super complex topics they're all evidence-based and then deploying them so i just go to youtube and search for him and then look at his topics and start pulling pulling stuff from his bank he's done like 500 videos or something um now they're they're long and detailed but you know you can do the
Speaker 2summary ones the essential they're called essentials i the ones that i always tell people to go to is dopamine sleep and alcohol like he did the the alcohol episode he did a bunch of years ago was one of the one of the episodes like i gotta go to like i don't go to zero but i gotta get my drinking baseline to basically zero a week and if i'm on the road or at work stuff whatever i don't know that's fine but even then it's pretty limited but are there other topics where you tell people to start start with on top of like i mean
Speaker 1alcohol with the team i always start with those performance zones so like we talked about act activation on the y-axis um emotionality on the x-axis the four states like give them awareness of that that's like the starting point it's like oh the way i feel today isn't i just woke up on the wrong side of the bed i'm actually in a freeze response okay now i have something i can wrap my head around and i can deal with then you talk about the tools of how to work with that state but yeah shared language those four zones understanding you know the the way they're structured like that's a if i'm going to give like a training or something just one to a team like that's the one i'm going to do okay cool that's everything everything starts from that awareness do you
Speaker 2guys have content on that i know we covered a bunch of it on the the previous pod where people can go back to there
Speaker 1there is content on linkedin check me out at kevin j bailey that's my linkedin account there is stuff on linkedin i published about all this all right
Speaker 2we're out of time so we'll call it there this was great i'm i'm i feel like we gave people uh a place to start and some structure to start with and i think that's a really good way to start with structure and uh some like real tools to take away so uh appreciate you joining again i'm sure this one will be just as popular uh and i'll let you know how the reception is that's great thank you so much kyle thank you for listening to the revenue leadership podcast if you enjoyed it don't forget to subscribe and you can find a link in the show notes and be sure to leave a five-star review share it with your network and please join me next wednesday for another great conversation ♪ ♪
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