Speaker 1Adrian Rosenkranz is the CRO at Webflow. Before that, he ran global sales at Tableau, a multi-billion dollar org spanning enterprise, SMB, and self-serve. Now he's rebuilding go-to-market for a world where AI agents are evaluating your product right alongside human buyers.
Speaker 2What we're seeing is that the web and web traffic is fundamentally shifting to a world where you're going to have to sell for both human agents to get to your prospective buyers.
Speaker 1Adrian breaks down a major shift that's already upon us. Nearly 20% of website traffic is now AI crawlers. These agents are having extended conversations with your prospects and answering questions on your behalf, completely bypassing your traditional marketing collateral.
Speaker 2The pressure it puts on revenue leaders is that people are going to now know way more about you. The question is, are we going to step up and shape it or are we going to be shaped by it?
Speaker 1We also get into the efficiency trap and why giving your reps the freedom to build their own AI workflows might actually be cannibalizing your revenue.
Speaker 2I was talking to a sales director on our team and they were telling me about all this cool AI coaching they're doing. And I said, great, are you on calls more? If you're doing stuff with AI that my ops team can do, you're not adding value.
Speaker 1Adrian shares the exact internal architecture he's building to feed his own agents and reveals the absolute most important data you need to be piping into your LLMs if you want to win against your
Speaker 2competitors. I always say the two most useful pieces of information and data you possibly can have to give LLMs context in any go-to-market function is your
Speaker 1Welcome to the Revenue Leadership Podcast. Momentum is a powerful tool for turning sales and customer conversations into go-to-market intelligence. Using GenAI, it extracts, analyzes, and automates customer intelligence across your GTM org. The best part, it's not a new platform for your team to adopt. It integrates seamlessly with your existing stack, or it can straight up replace your conversational intelligence tool. At Owner, we ripped out Gong and went all in on Momentum. It writes back to our Salesforce directly, captures forecast and churn risk, autofills CRM fields, shares product signals, and tracks sentiment. Companies like Cursor, Zscaler, Ramp, and 11Labs use it every day. Check it out with a free trial at Momentum.io. Today's guest is Adrian Rosenkranz, who is the CRO at Webflow. And before Webflow, he ran global sales at Tableau, which was a multi-billion dollar org spanning enterprise, SMB, self-serve, and now he is rebuilding GTM for a world where AI agents are crawling, discovering, and evaluating your products alongside your LLMs. Alongside human buyers and at Webflow, they've seen a 125% jump in LLM bot crawls across their 300,000 customer base, which is really interesting because it means our pipeline is changing shape in a pretty significant way, whether or not people are paying attention. And so we're going to talk about what that means for modern go-to-market and talk about what they are doing to adopt AI in their GTM org. And, uh. And, uh, Adrian has some cool, interesting things to share, so looking forward to this one and I appreciate you joining.
Speaker 2Yeah, happy to be here.
Speaker 1Let me dive right into that stat. So you guys are seeing this, like, massive increase in bot crawls across your customers. What does that mean for me as a CRO or marketers, and how does that change how we're building our GTM orgs?
Speaker 2It's amazing how fast it's changing. When I started at Webflow, about. 16 months ago, if you went and looked at what percent of our customer base, um, had traffic from AI, it was less than 1%, and that was mostly just AI doing some model training, but really different. Then, since then, you know, a lot of things have changed. Not only have there been model updates, but since then, models can now surf the web, they changed the way they did citations, and so a lot has changed. And so you fast-forward to today, and all of a sudden, when we look at it, it's nearly 20% of traffic going to Webflow customer sites are actually AI bot crawlers. Now, what's most interesting to me is almost half, it's like 43%, is actually AI going to a site to get information, to then go back and answer a user the question they asked. And so that little change is pretty material. And so what we're seeing is that the web and web traffic is fundamentally shifting to a world where you're going to have to solve for both human and agents to get to your prospective buyers. And so that shift and that change is really going to materially change how you think about marketing, how you think about acquisition, how much knowledge your customers have of you. And the thing that's pretty remarkable, unlike anything before, is the speed, just because it's really changing quickly. And so I think we're all going to have to start to really adapt very fast. I mean, if you go back seven or eight months, we were really looking at actually just referrals at the time, AI referrals. And then now you fast-forward, and now we are looking at citations, we're looking at other metrics, because a lot of people are getting their answers all within the LLM.
Speaker 1And so can you just explain the difference between a referral and a citation and what that means for us?
Speaker 2Yeah, sure. So when you think about being in an LLM, you ask it a question. And, you know, it could be, what's the best agentic web marketing platform? And it could say Webflow. If it says Webflow, that would be a citation, right? It's referencing Webflow. If I then see a citation with a link and I click on it, in sources, you might click it, and it takes me to Webflow.com, that's referring me. What happens more and more often now is not the referral, but actually you get an answer. And what we tend to see is a lot of times users actually just go up to the URL and type in Webflow.com after that experience. So they're not necessarily getting direct. But they've gone back and forth and got answers to the questions. And so those nuances and how that's changing and the conversion rates are all a different way of thinking. And so, for example, we see typically when someone does get referred, it's about a 6x improvement in conversion. So they're much, much farther down the funnel.
Speaker 1Which makes sense because they've probably had an extended conversation and this is the, like, recommended thing for them. And so you mentioned that the way citations work. Has changed. So, like, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2A good example is if you think about six months ago when web started becoming part of the way that LLMs answered web search. And let's take ChatGPT as an example because the majority of the bot calls we see actually are from ChatGPT right now. Google is growing a lot and Anthropic as well, but ChatGPT is the largest amount. There was a period of time where when you asked a question and it answered it, it referenced a website. It would actually have a link right there in the line and then it shifted to actually aggregate it all and say sources and so you'd have to click, see the aggregate sources to see where it got the information from. And so just the way that with each model change, it's choosing to to change the way it's showing you information is changing the behavior of your prospects and your customers. It's changing so quickly that you constantly have to be on top of it, but we do see material changes. So when that change happened. From like last August, I think it was when it went from like in the line to like source, we basically saw pretty significant 30, 40% drop in our own referrals, but it just showed up in a different place, which was people typing in webflow.com as an example.
Speaker 1And it's just going to keep changing like every, every couple of weeks.
Speaker 2It's going to keep changing, but I think the thing we can all agree is going to be the norm is that we have to build experiences in our marketing and our sales that get. Agents answers to questions because they're going to be answering on our behalf. And though they'll be answering on our behalf without brand control, without our judgment, it's actually going to be its own judgment based off of the user that it has context on. We're going to have to solve for making it easy for agents to answer questions and humans. And it's very different experiences. I mean, it just don't care about beautiful animations and engagement that lets you visually understand the information they care about markdown files. And so being able to build an experience. That solves for an agent and a human is just going to have to be the norm.
Speaker 1If you want to win, should companies have dedicated pages on their domain that are optimized for agent crawl? And it's just like a big markdown file of all of the FAQs with answers that are, I won't say prompt injection, but it's like you could, you could stuff a lot of information in there that, that specifically like would, would impact the context window of that user.
Speaker 2It's a great question. I think I get it probably every week from either a CMO or a VP of marketing. Do I need two websites is the bigger question. Like, should I have a different experience for an agent than a human based on the data that we see now, that would actually be a disadvantage. So what we know is with AI and AO or geo, we know that what you do in SEO, you get an AO for free, but there's some other things you want to add. And so what we're seeing is that if you. Decided to create something separate, you have to go build your brand. You have to build your authority, all that you then have to go and do because those things matter in both SEO and AO. So we actually see the biggest advantage is doing it right. In one experience, it's just different things that are needed. And so I'll give you an example. You should have schema markup. And so you can go to schema.org. It's a pretty general standard. Most websites have pages where that doesn't exist. And good news is with agents to lobby. It's much easier to be able to keep it updated everywhere, but that gives guidance or another example is to your question on markdown. pages should have markdown for agents where the page itself has a version available of it that's a markdown so that an agent can go get what it needs as fast as possible
Speaker 1is that a part of the page that just has a like a bunch of markdown information on it or like you like link out it's like agents click here what does that actually mean
Speaker 2so the way we solved it is we just give people a feature that they can just toggle on and it automatically creates markdown for agents of every page so that way like it can find it this is where a lot of people use different techniques to make it available but the the whole point for those of you who are not as deep into this part of the technical setup of your website the whole point is that there is certain types of code that the agents don't pay attention to and so the markdown version of the page which is oftentimes you'll see examples metadata is available like you have metadata tags etc that might be something you're more familiar with in our case you just toggle on markdown for agents and it makes it makes your pages available and very clean code so that it can understand what's
Speaker 1going on so it's not content on the page it's basically having the a bunch of the information that you want to communicate in the metadata as markdown files
Speaker 2right and so the way that the way i like to think about this is actually this when you look at think about a beautiful website so like i'd like to use lando norris's because lando norris's website's you go to lando norris he's got it's the agency that worked with them operand built something amazing it's a very beautiful website so check it out but if you go to lando norris and you look at it all the animation and everything the agents don't care at all and so it's really for us for engagement for to to bring us in but then if you go look at the code if you switch that entire page and you went to like inspect it just like you were wanting to look at the code that is what the agent looks like looks at so when you think about it you're going to look at the code and you're going about it there's what we experience and then there's the actual code and the code is what the agent's consuming and i think the real opportunity right now is how do you make sure that for a long time we would optimize it for seo now we need to make sure there's added aeo as well as the human but the reason i i'm highlighting is just because i think we didn't really have to think it was academic you know 12 months ago it was an academic experience of like what if we needed to solve for agents but now it's nearly 20 so it's a it's material and and growing and a
Speaker 1bunch of that is is is sort of a live crawl from a user search not just like the mass indexing right and we're seeing
Speaker 2it's close to 43 is a user live up question how
Speaker 1does that change how we need to operate like more holistically so okay make make information available on your on your page that that's like a one piece of it what else should uh revenue leaders be thinking about with rank like aeo and and sort of llm rank uh alongside their normal like seo and uh efforts
Speaker 2you have to think about the fact that with seo you're competing for a click and you control the content that they see because you're eventually clicking onto content that you're likely controlling now there's content that maybe their parties create the maybe it's pr maybe etc but with llms there's an added judgment which is what the user's context has given the llm and so it's constantly changing and i think what it's going to demand is it's going to demand us to be able to answer more and more questions that people have the thing that's unique about an llm is that it's going to give you an answer to pretty much any question you ask so the long tail is just so much longer and so things you never even thought about are going to be able to be answered and so i think it's going to be a lot of asking or solving to make sure people get an answer to they will ask an llm and we'll get an answer and so the question becomes how do you become that knowledge base that an llm will use to answer questions about your industry about your product the pressure it puts on revenue leaders is that people are going to now know way more about you i mean i was in uh france um with a customer of ours and i was on the we were in a room together and i knew that i was going to be able to answer that they were actually just asking questions of an llm based off what i was saying in real time it was pretty funny and that's the type of experience the knowledge and information they have access to is completely different and so the way that i think revenue leaders need leaders need to think is are you going to help shape the information that goes to llms or are you going to be shaped by it because at the end of the day your customers your prospects are going to be asking you questions like is this pricing fair what are other alternatives like how are you how should i what question should i be asking and i think that's going to be the question is are we going to step up and shape it or are we going to be shaped by it what i'm
Speaker 1experiencing right now is like our product team has increased their velocity of shipping so much that it is almost to the point where like you can't enable people to know all of the things that are coming out as fast as it changes which is like the best problem to have because it means a whole bunch of new product and and it's all very exciting but at the same time it puts real pressure on like what is the capacity of a human rep that is ripping like multiple demos and follow-ups every single day to engage with and learn and remember all of these new things and features and and data points and i would imagine your world is changing just as fast because you are you're so deeply affected by the changes on the model side have you guys thought at all about like how do you enable a rep when so much is changing so fast like is it about having clueless for sales and like a little co-pilot they're giving them answers or we're talking to one mind is a sort of avatar product we use on the website like can i use that in a call so that it's like an on-call ai solutions engineer that you just invoke when you like get stumped or like oh yeah like we have this new product and it i can't like totally remember what the feature set is and you just have that thing on on call have you guys thought about how to prepare reps in this like rapidly advancing world where more is happening faster
Speaker 2than ever the first part is how do you create the illusion that not that much is changing while pumping in a lot of change and so i'll give you an example we go to anyone in sales and you tell them everyone drop what you're doing we're doing a call blitz everyone will roll their eyes and be like man the leadership team they're just like reactive like they're pulling us off what we know we need to do if everyone knows that i'm going to do a call blitz every monday and we're like oh it's monday we're doing the call blitz same action same activity no one's gonna like think it's out of the ordinary and they're like no this is part of the run of the business and you might be able to slot in different messages etc within that right so my analogy of the call blitz is actually of a narrative if you have a conversation and you should be able to slot in different features functionality into the narrative so the thing that the rep actually knows really well is what's the narrative what's happening in the market how is it changing what's our point of view on it why does it matter to the customer and then when new features come out that support that narrative if we've done our job then it becomes more about hey it's the narrative you know now connect the dots and i'll give you a specific example with our narrative i think one of the things that's interesting about the web is that when you think about it and we just talked a lot about it one of the things that is changing rapidly on the web is the way you get traffic and what kind of traffic you get and so when you think about it most of our customers are trying to drive traffic and convert it uh the majority we do have some customers that have slightly different use cases but most of the time trying to drive traffic to your site you're trying to convert it and so if you are trying to figure out how to help them the reps sell that and understand that it's understanding how the you know we've gone from less than one percent to eighteen percent of traffic is lai bar crawlers it's understanding how half of our customers uh more than half our customers are trying to figure out how do i improve conversion with ai how do i create dynamic experiences that are changing in real time so they're trying to figure these things out and so as you're trying to think about how to enable all that if they know that narrative and then all of a sudden agent markdown for agents comes out since we just use that as an example i can say hey great news everyone like i'm going to like it's not it's a one button turn on it's toggle on and off good news everyone this whole story about how do you make sure you show up for agents you got really easy because we just enabled um this new feature that helps it be even easier because you just turn it on and it'll create markdown files for your pages now it becomes less about the feature and more about the story and then the augmentation there is to your point like how do we make sure that when they get us further details of it they can get answers quick they're via an llm answering a knowledge base in slack or whether it's a solution engineer but i do believe the first part of the problem is make sure you have a really good narrative that can that can funnel everything through the second piece i think from a ai perspective is if you have really good docs then you should be able to provide people the answers in real time and i think it puts a new pressure on making sure external documentation for us we work with agencies really deeply agency documentation People need to be able to access it in real time, and I think that's a fundamental shift and they we need to be able to access it from where we work so for in our case a lot of the reps are working on a slack and they use slack bot all the time as an example and so you need to be able to just ask the question and it gives you the answer so these are just like two of the things that like come to mind i'd say that the third thing that is probably most interesting is product should just release when it's ready and it's our job as go-to-market folks to figure out how to not only enable our reps our customers and our partners but it's our job to figure out how to make it as effective as possible for people to learn and use that and i think it means more pressure on us to know with certain features and functionality like which part and segmentation of our icp does it fit and
Speaker 1do you think it means you need to niche down your team more potentially like if there's if there are certain features or products that fit a particular market then you know certain people can focus on learning like fewer things or is there anything structurally that maybe you would you would evaluate changing if there is just so much more getting shipped and changed i
Speaker 2probably get to that second i actually a week ago was rattling around with this problem and so i built an agent that basically goes and looks at all the slack channels so we have slack channels that basically we call like okay to go through all of these channels so basically like the sign off between the pms and the pms for example that we're releasing the feature and there's different tiering of course but basically i realized because the volume is so high i actually built an agent that said okay based off on our icp based off our messaging and positioning i want you to look at these channels daily and i want you to flag any features that really squarely fit into this narrative and then i want you to go look at all our open deals and match which of these features and functionality based on the customer transcripts be worth mentioning say the way that i break it down in my head and maybe this is overly simplistic is i'm like is this features and functionality to give us a reason to call about a problem that they have and it's a new thing or is this features and functionality that actually are going to just like strengthen our position in deals and it's not necessarily like compelling enough on its own to call someone but it's a good ad and the question is like how do you insert it and so right now my approach is how do i proactively scan deals or like prospects and figure out how to use the feature but i find that because of the speed it's actually a really good use case for the agent to constantly be scanning those channels and saying oh this feature this is the feature here's the prd based off that who should we be focused on
Speaker 1i actually really like that as a mental model like is it a feature that drives a reason to talk or drives the deal forward or is this a feature that you need ambient knowledge of and maybe that's where you take a more just-in-time approach of just like giving people we use guru so giving people access to like you know at their fingertips asking a question whether it's in swag or in the app experience okay i want to talk about what you're how you're using ai uh internally so that that's a really cool use case it's before we started recording it sounded like you're building and and doing stuff of your own which is great um clearly you you get it but you've said there's a this efficiency trap you've warned about teams following into this efficiency trap where you're optimizing certain inputs with ai without with while also losing sight of the outcomes and so like just explain what what you mean by this and and then we can talk about how to avoid it
Speaker 2the efficiency trap i think the easy mental model to use is anyone who's really good at responding to emails just ends up getting more emails and that doesn't necessarily mean it's more responses which get more responses and so the efficiency trap can is when you're being more productive at the thing so in this case emails but it may not be driving the outcomes and so as i think about ai especially in go-to-market context it's something that i really think about a lot because you feel this magical experience when when an lm does its thing it's quite remarkable and doesn't get us what we need to get out of uh the goal of like the job that we've hired the person to do or to make our customers successful like is it do making it better or is it just doing something and like i'll give you a good example and i don't know i'm sure a lot of people deal with this is that every single person that faces customers wants to use their call data for some kind of use case they want to integrate it with other tools and the reality is i don't really need you know over 100 people doing their own unique version of it where you can do a lot of different things so i think it's really useful to be able to make that happen and i think it's really useful is when i have my rev ops team which i've actually collapsed everyone from marketing ops and rev ops sales ops uh post-sale ops it's one team with go-to-market engineers and they think about like what's the connective tissue and instead of being focused on like oh i i'm connecting the dots between you know gong call um and being able to like automatically log it it's actually the people who face customers using that to get pushed information more they're reps as an example and so what i'm really always thinking about with my rev ops team and specifically my rev ops leader tara is how do we create not an efficiency trap where everyone just they can use ai so they start like spending 20 minutes on sending an email instead of just spending five minutes on writing it you know and so like how do we make sure that the systems are connected and we're actually empowering outcomes and how do we always focus on the outcome and that's really what i mean when i say the efficiency trap of we need to make sure we're getting some outcome not just that we can do more of it
Speaker 1it can feel exciting and it can feel like you're really moving the ball forward to play with an llm but there's this uh stewart butterfield quote where he talks about hyper realistic work-like activities which is basically like you know what are the what are the actions and work that you can take that don't actually move the ball forward but feel like you're doing something and reps are the most susceptible to that because it's like you know what do you what's the work you want to avoid well what's the hardest thing picking up the phone making a cold call reaching out and chasing chasing your pipeline and and you can get stuck in these loops of oh i'm gonna you know build my own little call transcript follow-up automator thing and and that's one of the reasons why we have uh much the same as you a very centralized approach to how we deploy ai and it is our applied ai team and rev ops and biz ops and data that are doing this stuff and just like delivering outcomes so it's trackable and i
Speaker 2couldn't agree more i mean i can tell you that i was talking to a sales director uh on our team and they were telling me about all this cool ai coaching they're building and i said great are you on calls more he answered uh what i was like yeah yeah like this is nice but like are you on more customer calls because for me if you're a customer facing role what i need you to do more of is be with me and i'm like yeah i'm gonna be with you and i'm gonna be with you with customers and so if you're doing stuff with ai that my ops team can do who understand systems better um and specifically the folks who are the applied ai folks they understand the systems they are working with prompts more their their job is this then like you're not adding value or we're or we feel like we're doing something in forward momentum but really i could have someone else do it where they can't have someone else talk to customers
Speaker 1like you can very much agree i this i wrote a sub stack for you post which was basically arguing for a seat a centralized approach to ai transformation in gtm it was like by far my most popular sub stack by like 3x and i think it struck a struck a chord with people because they're feeling this they're feeling like oh your sales manager spent like four hours building a thing that like works but still sort of sucks because you know it's just the little thing that you built on the side versus you know the the what yg who's our applied ai guy for sales builds is like not just like you know 50 better it's like 10x better and and scalable and can be widely deployed so and and to that point the
Speaker 2hardest part is the management of it like i get more fearful not of the build project that someone did i get more worried about how they're going to maintain it how they're going to make sure it works like all those hours spent where if your role is to be with customers i want you to be with customers
Speaker 1tell me more about collapsing the rev ops and go to market go to market teams like gtme what caused you to do that and how have you what have you done
Speaker 2well when you think about we created all the specialization i think in our industry around certain roles like you know marketing automation or salesforce automation right like i came from salesforce or salesforce admins but we created all these specializations kind of because we had to we were forced to buy the technology to create specialization now the good news was it's still better than anything we had before but we're still better than anything we had before but we were forced into that world but when you think about the complicated part is that those worlds and those teams always had to create handoffs with each other whoever was in charge of marketing ops eventually had to get the lead to sales and then once it was in sales you had to make sure you eventually got this to post sales or customer support and so there was just a reality of we had to specialize but the workflows were never isolated within a department The workflows were always passing from one to the other. And so. As we started to get quickly into this world where part of what we needed to do is create an infrastructure where our systems talk to each other with AI so we can do whatever workflows we wanted, it became very clear that the workflows needed to live across these teams. And I didn't want there to be an unnecessary barrier, which was the fact that they lived in different orts. Because of that, we collapsed it all into one place. And if you think about what they're trying to do, there's a couple pieces. They want to create the system so they can all talk to each other. Then you need to have the context files or any kind of context which the systems provide. But there's also sometimes augmentation there where whenever you have an agent running, you need to understand all the context of the workflow. And then you need to be able to evaluate whether it's working or not and enhancing it. And those three steps didn't just live in one place. Marketing is judged by pipeline, which lives in the pipeline. Sales, that's not. Salespeople create the pipeline, at least for now. That's why it was very clear to me that the only way we're going to make it successful is break down an artificial construct, which is an orts chart, and basically say, hey, go wrong with this. I mean, I always say the two most useful pieces of information and data you possibly have to give LLMs context in any go-to-market function is your usage data, if you're in software, how they use the product in any way, shape, or form. And then the second thing is your customer calls. Those are the two most powerful things because they have the most information. If you can't use those effectively, but everyone wants to use them. Marketing wants to use them. Sales wants to use them. Post sales support everyone. That's how and why we decided to bring it all together.
Speaker 1So was marketing ops living under marketing before and now it lives under go-to-market ops? Or like what is the shape of the team?
Speaker 2So if you rewind before when I got here, I guess. You would have sales ops living in sales. You'd have marketing ops living in marketing, support ops in support. So you basically have the op teams in each function. In most companies that I've talked to, once you get to a certain size, they start to specialize it just because having to be the Marketo expert is very different than having to be the Salesforce expert or HubSpot or whatever else you're using. And now with AI, the stacks are just massive. And I think that's. That's one of the challenges that we're all dealing with is that, you know, at least in our space with Webflow, a lot of companies and marketers have created these Frankenstacks that they're trying to like stitch together to create these digital experiments, experiences, and experiments to get people to convert. And it's really hard. And so having one view of everything and one team that's job is to solve the workflow with AI, not solve a department's problem.
Speaker 1It's interesting because almost everything is becoming a data problem now in our experience. Like what you used to call something that might live in marketing ops, it really is more like a traditional data science problem or data engineering problem. Like we're Webflow customers, for example. And so like, how do you get all of that information into the right places so that you could have this full funnel understanding of your customer? And those problems do cut across a lot of different places. We still. So our RevOps org has always been centralized, but we have specialists that are embedded with each team. But we can certainly see the times when a problem needs that cross-cutting, like one view of the customer journey. And so trying to think through how to solve those has certainly got in mind.
Speaker 2I think what's going to be interesting is like the specialized skill sets, I think, are just going to change. I think where we were was you needed to know Marketo better than anyone. And now I think it's going to be something like who are going to be the people on that team that's job is to create eval frameworks for when agents are doing a good job versus a bad job. Who are the people on the team that are going to be managing the knowledge bases that are constantly evolving and learning that are used in a bunch of different other workflows? And then there's going to be who are the people on the team that are going to be the builders who talk to the. The business owner, the marketer, the salesperson, et cetera, and translate that into agents to help them do their jobs. Those are different skill sets. Now, they might not be all the same person. They could be different people. But I think that's going to be something that evolves pretty quickly. I mean, the conversation I'm having with my analyst right now is I want that I actually tell them to do analysis in the old school way and also ask an LLM to do it too. And then have the LLM grade itself against what they did. Because I basically want them to, like, for now, keep learning how we do analysis on the business.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's a lot more like a product org where you have sort of PMs embedded with their users, the business unit. And then you've got the builders, as you said. Well, just those are engineers. And then maybe there's specialists. There's a back-end team, you know, back-end engineering, which is the people building evals and maybe the database structure. It really. It really feels like the roadmap for this is a product org. Getting from what we do now to that vision, it's going to be messy, I think. But it feels like the right mental model.
Speaker 2It does. And the users are just people who happen to work at your company instead of not.
Speaker 1Where else have you seen the most transformation within Webflow? Like, where are you guys getting the most value with AI? And I'd love to just, like, hear about some specific use cases.
Speaker 2I'll share two simple ones. I mean, something more complex. I'll share you three. The first, which is a very simple one. We typically have the need where, whether it's a salesperson, a post-salesperson, they want me to send a note out to a customer or a prospect. The old way of doing it was we'd have a workflow in Slack. That Slack workflow, they would then put in a draft email. I would then go look at it, rewrite it, put it into Gmail, send it. That was how we used to do it. I had since created an agent that is so much better because it takes whatever. The rep or customer success manager wants me to send. It then goes, looks at our Slack channel for context. It goes, looks at our call conversations with a customer for the last 60 days. It then checks my calendar, checks my Gmail and says, does Adrian know this person already? Have they met with them? What did they talk about? And then using all that context, it rewrites the email against my voice, which is a different skill I have in Cloud. And then once that's all done, it actually puts it as a draft in my Gmail and sends me. It's automating a bunch of steps with using skills that are designed to make it easier. And then I have it actually grade itself. So every time it runs, it goes and looks at the ones that it's actually drafted for me and grades itself with 100% being I didn't touch the email at all. And I got a response. If I don't get a response, then it gets it less. If I have edited the email, it grades it less. And right now it's actually gone close to 90% of the time. I don't have to edit it.
Speaker 1And what's the stack you've built it with?
Speaker 2Yeah, so I built it in Cloud Code. So co-work is probably the easiest way to do it. I MCP to a combination of Slack. I MCP to our call conversations, to my Gmail, to my Google Calendar. And then I just gave it instructions. So with us, we use Slack very, very well with all our customer conversations. And so I explain like in the Slack channel, you'll get the internal context of what's happening. When you go look at the calls, like understand if the person I'm emailing is some is in the calls or if it's an executive who hasn't been involved. And then I made my own skill, which I highly recommend everyone to do. Just go and build a skill that's your own voice. The best thing I did was I just had to train off emails I already sent. So I was just like, go look at all the emails I already sent. And that's my email voice.
Speaker 1And all I have a prompt for this that people can use. It's it's like a. Mimic my tone of voice prompt and you can just dump anything into it. My so after this, after we record, I'm going to put the transcript into my into my podcast post-production flow. And it's going to send you an email that has pre-written LinkedIn posts in your voice based on your tone of voice that it's built from this recording and scraped whatever I can find on you across the Internet. Because I don't know why people don't have this already. Like when I explain to people, I've got like. A writing skill that imitates me with like freakish accuracy, like, oh, how do I do that? So this is like my one of my post recording surprise and delight things where I'm going to get I want to give every but every guest their writing skill or their writing prompt snippet. However, they want to use it.
Speaker 2Say you have that, then the only part you're really missing in this workflow, if you want to build it for yourself, is you just have to give it instructions on how it builds context. So I when I say go. You get the account. Now go look at the slack. Here's how you find the slack channel. I give it instructions on how to do that. Here's how you build that context of what's been talked about internally in terms of our plan with the account. Go look at the customer conversations, build a pattern, match that. So that's how I like took it step by step. And then eventually the last step is now run it through my voice and put it into the email.
Speaker 1Yeah, I was I was just trying to think of like, how can I make it so dead simple for people to share the podcast? with their networks and like because I'm do a bunch of other people's podcasts i'm like and so i am much more slow to like write a linkedin post to to do it if i have to like put the transcript in my own i just dump it in my same workflow i'm like hey i was a guest on this thing like write me a newsletter and some linkedin posts and it knows how to like rip through it i was like oh i should just do that for every guest and and we'll see you're you'll you'll be the second guest to get that output so you'll have to use it
Speaker 2i will use it for sure
Speaker 1tell me how good it is in terms of actual like writing quality because i want to i want to iterate it because i love you you were saying like every time it runs it grades itself i was like oh i need to do that
Speaker 2yeah so basically what you do is at the end you basically say oh actually i put it at the beginning of the instructions it's not the end because once you've done it once i go before you run the first step you're going to do is go look at previous and basically grade yourself here's how you should grade yourself and then make enhancements to the prompt before you run it again with your goal being 100 okay
Speaker 1well i'm just going to drop this part of the transcript in my open claw telegram and be like do this right let me know how it goes and so this is cloud code so so it's you're invoking that when when you want it to run or you have a cron job through cron job that's okay yeah i have it scheduled so that's with cloud co root that's with cloud routines
Speaker 2then basic yes and the thing though is that i will say that some days people really urgently want me to send something and so i'll get a slack message and i'll just go click run and i'll just run it but it's still better like clicking one button versus having to do everything is still way faster if someone pings me and says hey i need you to do this then it ends up being you know less than five minutes from start to finish and i'm doing other things at the same time the other thing i'll say is that part of this was i actually we have a workflow in slack that goes to a channel and i'm doing a channel so i i should have mentioned that the way that it starts is the first thing it does it looks at that channel and identifies when people want me to send
Speaker 1something yeah the the thing like i built so much stuff in open claw because you because it could be virtually hosted and i could have it on cron jobs and now quad has so much of that stuff i was like oh it'd probably just be easier if i had it all in cloud but i'm like pot committed to open clock because i've got all these things built already and so i'm i'm uh but then now nate fullen who runs rev ops at perplexity was telling me about the stuff that they have and i was like oh maybe i should look at i have the worst ai phone all i like want to use them all and and be able to have it all but well and then
Speaker 2every week something's new come and you
Speaker 1want to try that yeah it's like cloud managed agents i'm like oh that that's like one of the last missing pieces i have with my open claw instance but i'm so attached to it i'm so attached to all the skills and the
Speaker 2like i know my my biggest thing that i've kind of gone on in the last week and i was actually working with our rev ops team because i think they're uniquely how i want to build it is um basically there's a whole set of like agents i want to build i was realizing that i was missing something so obvious that we would do as humans but i didn't do it into my agents is explaining to the agents who to delegate to and who they should receive information from for some reason i never had thought of that but being very like very specific of hey you will delegate to this skill and because so that that way you can actually control different parts of the workflows because before when you don't do that you it's dealer's choice what it decides to do that's been the latest thing that i've been really pushing the team on is making sure we're very clear on architecting and thinking through when we delegate when a agent delegates into which one and to what type of skill versus and where should it expect to receive information from
Speaker 1yeah this is the thing that i've been really pushing the team on is making sure we're very clear on architecting and thinking through when we delegate when a agent delegates into this is the thing that i think open claw figured out early is this idea of that tools file and so you can have exactly like a good understanding of of all these things but it is still like i'll sometimes i'll get an output and i'm like this doesn't sound like me and it's like oh i forgot to use the writing skill and i was like okay well now like okay and i'll like just use whisper i'm like all right make sure that you update this this skill to always use the writing skill because i don't want to put the writing skill in everything i'm going to use the writing skill every skill that it uses so and i think
Speaker 2what you're getting at is exactly what we were talking about earlier about the importance of management like managing the agents it it is not uh set it and forget it you know i think one of the things that we're seeing pretty clearly with webflow but also just in terms of how we're using ai is the day one is never the problem making sure things are like working on day 20 50 100 that's the hard part and i find it's
Speaker 1a new way of working like that that's the thing that took me the most amount of time to get used to is like always being in the loop of if i see an output that i'm like oh like that's not a great email or like oh that's not good instead of just like not using it or or telling it to do it again like always going back to the skill and having it update the skill or update it's like okay like why was that not good oh well it doesn't really have the right context so i need to make sure that this thing like this mcp or it goes back to these context files and so the the habit of every single time you do something you like do the action and maybe use that as an opportunity to give feedback to that skill so to like update
Speaker 2that my favorite way to do that is i i it's when you feel that moment where you're like frustrated you're like this was harder than it should have been you know that moment that you get okay this is way harder than it needs to be time for a mini retrospective your job is to look at this entire conversation and figure out why it was so hard you you can give me feedback but then you also need to take feedback that you're going to implement and then i have it and then i do a mini retro and it has been a lifesaver because it basically does one it tells me when i'm taking it the wrong path and what i could do better but it actually just rewrites how it's approaching it going forward so i highly recommend that to anyone who who like when you get to that point of frustration just tell it this is harder than it should be run a mini retro give me feedback but you i need you to take feedback that's actionable and it's going to make this i think i like to use 10x better or 100x better for the next time all
Speaker 1right i cut you off and we went down a rabbit hole you said you have three interesting use cases you want to talk to and we've got to use case one which is yes people eat getting you to something else number two
Speaker 2and you and i were talking about this earlier i think one of the things that we're all going to be searching for is how do you create knowledge bases that are constantly evolving and learning because the business is changing and so this whole idea where you know at least where i started was oh you get a file and you're like yes i got the file that explains my business and i'm gonna put it in there and then a week goes by and you're like that is old one of the things we're all going to be doing is maintaining knowledge bases that are like very key like canonical piece of information they're going to be so sometimes it'll be like a glossary of like terms to understand metrics definitions of a business the one that i was really obsessed with was our icp and specifically how do i use data from our close one from our customer calls from what we see in our slack channels happening how do i use this data to basically create a icp and every week have a drift where i'm like okay how much do we drift from what our core icp was last week to this week based on what's closed and and and then be able to look back a month and say like how has that changed and so with that i went down this rabbit hole of trying to be able to create something so my teams could all use it what i actually found was a couple things so one is use getting our messaging and positioning doc to help frame it was really helpful so like here's our messaging and positioning i also connected it to a call conversation so i looked at all of our historical conversations and then also actually you know borrowing from like best practices so you know lenny's podcast has a bunch of stuff on icp and marketing at salesforce so i kind of combined things that i've heard that i like to borrow from other people stuff that i liked of like how to think about building an icp and then basically i told it like the output is going to be a markdown file that is going to be used by other agents to go do work and your job is to make sure that you run this every week and so it's on a cron job and so every week it just makes a new file and you can see the drift from the previous one and it's got everything in there from anti-icp patterns to icp patterns to customer quotes to validate certain things certain segmentations and certain trends we're seeing jobs to be done frameworks so you can see what people are using webflow for what they're not what they're choosing for and what they're not and then from that once and my whole vision for it was to actually be able to make it so that whether it's marketing or rev ops and they want to do territories differently they can use this at any given point but it actually goes much further because i actually think it's it's creating the basis to be able to ask something super specific like i'm competing against wordpress what are the top here's my deal analyze what i've talked about in my deal compare it to the icp of when we win and tell me what i'm missing and what questions i should ask and so that's where i'm going with it but my biggest unlock was how do you create that ever-evolving knowledge base i think and go to market it's harder because you know not everyone's in github not everyone's actually creating stores of accessible data that constantly are changing and for us a lot of these documents used to just end up in a presentation um and so how do
Speaker 1you just constantly update buried in slack exactly google drive the answer i think is github though like that that's sort of what we're consolidating on like how do you think about a central repository that people can push and pull from and it's in a format that works across many surfaces we have my vp of rev ops built something called the gardener and it looks at business context across a whole bunch of different slack channels and notion documents and and updates basically like business context like what if you are building a thing because he's building you know like business workflows and process and and stuff in in our tools so what do you need to know about all of those things to do it really well like i have a personal one that's all of the things that are important to me and that's what i'm trying to do and that's what i'm trying to do and that's important to me and that's what i'm trying to do and that's what i'm trying to to go to market and to me and it runs every week and it pulls in all of my call all my internal call recordings all of the notion documents from from specific workspaces things like i've written my to-do list to update this master like what's important to me file so that any of my agents can can be most effective because if you ask you know back to this conversation about centralized versus decentralized if a rep just asks a generic chat window it's like how do i win this deal against xyz competitor it's kind of like research a bunch of stuff online and give you a bunch of slop but if you as the cro can manage like this is our competitive positioning this is how we do these things these are the new feature releases then all of those things actually become 10 times more powerful and here's
Speaker 2the most interesting part i think you just nailed it me as a cro like there wasn't a world where i could get that type of content and i was like i don't know if i can get that type of content and i was like i can get that type of content and i was like i can get that type of content and i was like i can get that type of me shaping how we how that icp works how that document ends up being used is actually shaping a bunch of other workflows and so i think that that's going to be how the role evolves is yes i think everyone is a builder now and i think for those of us who just love to be curious it's really fun but i also think that that's this is in this lives the context unlock how do i use my context to help every rep be able to do that and i think that's going to be a big part of the role more successful help every customer success manager help every marketer and i have a different viewpoint so how do i help replicate that because i think the hardest part right now is if the world's trading as fast as it is and especially if you're in tech how you even how i have a conversation today is different from a month ago about our product about the world and so one thing that it's just too lagging
Speaker 1you almost have to tell it where you're going i was jokingly like first time first line manager all of my knowledge about how to solve people problems and orchestrate a team like they can get they can get a lot of
Speaker 2that yeah and you you you kind of hint at it there and i think it's spot on i had this conversation with a manager a front line sales manager actually about this topic and i was telling her what i need her to do something i can't which is she knows her rep she knows her rep's motivation she understands the deal cycles she's been in calls and heard them it's not just the transcripts it's actually the donations the delivery all of the parts that make up how that works i go if i give you access to something like this icp doc that you can run against the transcripts of these you know what questions to ask like you can ask different questions so you can coach the rep you can you know how that rep responds and i think augment basically taking my context but applying hers on is i think the unlock it's how do i build this i always am like obsessing with our rebels leader how do we build the system that everyone can use ai on
Speaker 1top of okay what's your third best use case
Speaker 2right now yeah so the third best use case i think is really around our outbound process i think right now being able to push to every single sales dev uh rep a here's the calls you should be having here's the script so like they basically say i'm gonna call this this company and right when they say that in slack they get a message back that says great here's your call script what it does is it goes and analyzes all the data we have about them does enrichment goes and looks at what's happening in the market applies the web flow positioning and some provocative challenger sales into it and says here's a script that can be useful for them and so it's like a just-in-time script for each time they want to call someone i think it's a it's a really powerful process because our goal is just to get people on the phone and so i think that one is really a great way to get people on the phone and so i think that one is really a great way to use case sometimes simple is the most powerful but again my metric oftentimes is how do i get people on the phone with more customers
Speaker 1and this this just compresses the amount of time for them to be ready to pick up a
Speaker 2call and this one is very similar to when i say like customer facing i'll give you one more example in this category one of the things that took us a long time was when we want to do a business review with a customer our customer success manager if they were if they were managing the account had to go look at the data had to build the slide deck it was a process it would take hours and hours and hours now we just start uh in cloud desktop we just say hey we want to run a business review with his this is the account it goes looks up the information looks at the history of calls then it actually builds a webflow page that's password protected that then lets the customer view all of this and it happens in like 15 minutes and so we basically took something that took hours and manual prep and slides and now it's a dynamic web page with a password that we can give to a customer so they can review it and have it on their own and we can make sure we're super aligned on what success looks like have
Speaker 1you measured how much time
Speaker 2that's saving people so the csms are telling me that they took what took something that took normally five to eight hours depending and it's now 15
Speaker 1minutes wow and then they like the outputs
Speaker 2yes the what's changed is they're actually we can just do more of them you know we can do it monthly you can increase the volume because it doesn't take time to like repair it the call the problem was never the call it was always the prep operation took a while
Speaker 1where do you see revenue leaders investing that you don't think is going to pay off like where are the areas that that are hypey and and overrated in your minds one of the
Speaker 2things that i'm constantly asking myself is that we are enabling so many tools to try to like get the edge i think we all feel this way it's like what's going to get us the edge and then you go talk to someone and good salesperson they're like this is your edge the more the strategy is just buying into your edge i think the more you're going to lose your edge everyone's talking about here's your tech stack right it's like what stack are you using because we're all trying to learn together but i think the best answers i've heard are those that have this mixture of stuff that they're curating themselves like you you gave a great example of like your open claw example with here is a set of uh of tools that i'm using as well and it's a mix and i think where it gets overhyped is that you can just go and buy a set of tools and you can just go buy a bunch of tools that everyone can have access to and that gives you your edge i think the edge is going to come from this mix of like what you're building on your own to create the right context evaluation frameworks integrations to the tools and then in addition to that specific ai tools that can help you accomplish certain goals so i think it's going to be a mix but i think i hear all the time like oh buy this thing or get this stack if you have this in your stack you're going to be you'll be leading edge and i think there's just a lot to what you have to own also next to it so
Speaker 1what's your framework for build versus buy like what do you think about needing to build in-house versus you know use an external tool you
Speaker 2need to buy systems that you can build with ai on top of it so you should be able to vibe on top of it and it should give you what you need so things that typically need to exist is you know you need governments roles permissions just in anything we do like so like i don't really want the team to have to go build roles permissions i want them to use ai tools on top of roles and permissions whatever they may be as an example um i don't really want to go and recreate something that we're gonna need for 50 100 days 200 days a thousand days and have to manage it over and over again so i also it's like what's the longevity of this workflow if something is a one time like we need this for this so like a great example artifacts and clutter so lightweight so like it's great for like a one-time here's an analysis like great good to go but once we start needing it over and over again now you want to actually think about building an application that has like the proper view and it's working and so my model for the team is is we should absolutely be building but i want to be building on top of systems not that when it's something that we're going to need in the long term so if it's something that we only need for short term yeah go at it build build build a is throw away no problem that's kind of how i think about about it it really is connected to the longevity and what the purpose of it is and ultimately i do also ask one other question which is help me understand why it's an advantage for you to build this versus buy it because at the end of the day it just if you look at it from a dollars and cents perspective and i actually like using duolingo as the example because i think it's a great product because so duolingo is really fun and easy to use um it's great if i told you you could have it for free or you can go lower and chat gbg which would you pick? You'd probably pick Duolingo, right? Because it's better. If I give it to you for free, you're like, oh, the value is just, it's a better experience. If I charged you a thousand dollars, you'd probably be like, nah, I'm just going to go over to ChatGPT or Clotter or whatever. So there is a reality of a price to value. And so that's the other part of the framework. And that's why I like to use the Duolingo example because I like it a lot. It's a great product. And if the price is right, you're willing to pay for it. So you don't have to manage it. You can just go through it. It has already been pre-designed for you. There's a lot you get. And so to me with the build versus buy, it's the same thing. It's like, is it worth it to build it or not?
Speaker 1One of the things that I've been thinking about is I don't really want to use tools that trap my intelligence and I want to own the intelligence. And I think that'll probably resonate with you considering our conversation about context capture and knowledge where I start to get nervous is like, oh, you know, we'll look at all this information and tell you what to do next. Well, you're, you're telling my rep what to do next. Like why? Like what's under there? What's, what's the, what's the logic? Like, I don't really want black box intelligence. I want to be able to look at like markdown files and context and understand like, what is the prompting behind it? And, you know, it's the difference between gong or, or the, the sales engagement platforms that are like, we'll, we'll tell you the next best action, but you can't, like, you can't figure out why necessarily versus like, there's a tool that we use called a trig, which it's similar. Like you can build these workflows to tell, especially like CSMs what to do next, but you get to like build the architecture and the intelligence of like, why is that happening and feed it specific things? Like, no, I don't want to do that in these situations. I want to do these other things. And so I, I find like the context isn't, or the intelligence isn't held hostage or behind in a black box. Like I, I want to be able to take my intelligence out of these platforms and be able to actually like influence it in a very specific manner.
Speaker 2You know, that, that, that begs the question because obviously the reason the intelligence and some of those platforms are locked in is because that is their boat. And so you take that away. Yeah. The thing that's interesting is I just don't think that that's a mode that's going to be worthwhile anymore. I mean, I think like our philosophy is, you know, you should be able to work with Webflow via agents headlessly, or you should be able to go into the experience in whichever one you want. And it's good. You're going to choose that based off of whatever has the conduct you need to make the best outcome. So if you want to go into Webflow and click a three column thing and say, Hey, turn this section into two columns, it knows where you're looking and you're not doing that whole experience, which we all had where you're like, no, no, no, this part of the page, I want you to change this part. Cause you don't have to do that because it has it. But on the other side, like I, the other day ran an entire messaging and positioning audit of our website. And I did that all from Claude as an example. So you're going to go to different places, but I think that if you host, if you hold it hostage, there's just not a moat that I think you're going to be able to sustain because agents will just pick other tools that can then a humans or agents will just pick other tools where the agents can get the information in and out to do what it needs to do. To me, it just becomes, you know, I don't know, I don't know, what gives you the best outcomes and outputs. And so if you're locking it all in, why? I mean, I work really hard sometimes. I mean, it's pretty funny how hard I work to get, make sure that my gong calls are not in gong.
Speaker 1I know this, this was one of the original reasons I turned off gong is because they want to do the walled garden thing. And I couldn't get pipe the information into Salesforce in the way I wanted it to. And I think a lot of people, you know, have that same reaction versus like we use momentum for it, where I could put, push that any everywhere and write my own prompts that can manipulate things in the way I want it. It's I agree. Like, I don't think that people will allow that to be a lock in with their own data or
Speaker 2intelligence. If you're able to provide in your software, more context to make an agent more successful. So if you have a set of different pieces of data that it can drive better outputs of a prompt or an agent, then I think that's going to be the lock-in because you're going to choose it because it's better because you're going to be like, Oh, that it does what I want it to do. So it has all that information. It has the data. It can do better. So I'm going to pick them. And I think that's going to be more of a lock-in than like a black box walled garden.
Speaker 1Clearly you're, you're actually very competent with the tools, building stuff yourself. What advice do you give to CROs that want to learn it? Like, where do they go? Where do you point them to?
Speaker 2Well, I would go to your podcast. I'd go to different podcast materials that I think I've heard. I'd also just talk to your network, ask questions, see what people are doing. It's changing so much that like your best, best skillset is going to be curiosity and willingness to learn. I'm someone who does, gets ideas from like learning from completely unrelated topics. So for example, one of the ways that I build my AI chief of staff is I take notes on every book I read and I love psychology as specifically how humans make decisions. And, and I took all the notes that I read and I love psychology as specifically how humans make decisions. And, and I took all my notes and then from like 12 years, cause I had them all on my phone and I basically took all my notes and gave it to my AI chief of staff that I was building and said, okay, here's how I want you to look through all my notes. Here's what I, here are the notes I took on all these books. What I want you to do is build a profile of how Adrian thinks, how Adrian works. And I want you to figure out the best way you can support him in it. Learn all this by understanding the notes he took compared to the books he was reading. And so I use that cause I was like, that's deeply, it's kind of like your sub stack example of like the voice. I was like, it's deeply personal to me. It was my takes on the books. The books are actually documented. So it's almost like an eval. It's like eval Adrian, like his take versus the actual book. And so I would say like use all. And so the reason I share that story is I think use, if you want to learn part of it is use what makes you unique and good at what you do to be able to, and you make AI work for you in that way. Um, that was just my idea, but there's lots of things I've heard that people do.
Speaker 1And where'd you go to learn to use the tools? Is that YouTube and Twitter? You mentioned Lenny's podcast, like where, where?
Speaker 2Yeah. I would say that part of it is I just like use them until I understand them. I'll look at LinkedIn posts, Twitter posts. I think there's a lot of hype out there, so it's really easy to get distracted. So I like to go to actual operators. Not everyone posts a lot, but when they do, I try to pay attention. And then, uh, the unpopular reality is like non-digital, like in person talking to people who, what are you doing? How are you doing it? Setting up calls where, you know, my rev ops team is talking to another company's rev ops team and sharing back and forth and then hearing what the output was. Um, so part of that is like learning on my own. Part of that is really trying to get an understanding from other people, having a coffee with a CRO and asking how they're approaching certain problems.
Speaker 1All right. We'll move to quick fire. Cause we got four minutes here. What do you think separates a good CRO from a truly great one?
Speaker 2I think elite CROs are extraordinarily curious, know that they don't have all the answers, but are willing to get in and model the way themselves, especially in the environment we're in today. I just think that you can't, this job is not about, yes, it's about leadership and management, but it's just as much about being into the details and not instead of, but with your team.
Speaker 1What's the best piece of advice you give to younger
Speaker 2leaders? It's never about knowing everything. It's about being insanely curious, uh, what other people know more than you.
Speaker 1I like that one.
Speaker 2And a very tactical example is you're a easier reps or your customers. Anyone who's talking to a customer knows more about that customer than you do.
Speaker 1What's the hardest lesson you've had to learn in your career?
Speaker 2Uh, the hardest lesson is sometimes being right is actually not the goal.
Speaker 1Last question. What's the best thing you've read in the last like 12 months?
Speaker 2I was really interested of how LMS and this new world probably changes though our attention spans. And so I was like in search of a book to help to live that has a bunch of research of basically how to write in a world where people are busy. And so there is a book that came out by two Harvard professors. They did a bunch of research. It's called writing for busy readers. And basically I took the whole book, did my notes as always. And that is now part of my system instructions, but it's not only on like how it writes to me, but how I wanted to write comms out. If you don't want to read it, good news. Just say, edit this and then whatever you're going to post or Slack or whatever, whatever you want to do, just edit this in the style of writing for busy readers. And it most likely will give you an edit that gives you a sense of how it works.
Speaker 1Get knowledge from a book that I don't actually want to read. Cause I think it might just be like regurgitated stuff from another book I've read. I just go to chat and I'm like, Hey, give me a full summary of this whole thing. Break down every chapter with the key takeaways. And then I'll scan it. I'm like, tell me more about this one. I'm like, yeah, no, like you, this is just a regurgitation of Kahneman or Cialdini or like whoever the source materials are.
Speaker 2And those are two of the most sourced ones, right?
Speaker 1Constantly. Yeah. Like, uh, now everybody rehashing atomic habits, everybody rehashing, like, you know, a couple of core books.
Speaker 2Well, the good news is it sounds like you hadn't heard of writing for busy readers. I wrote it down
Speaker 1and I'm like, uh, I that's in my followup list. I'm gonna. play around with it in my writing prompt. This is great, man. I'm really glad we could do this. I think people are really going to take a lot of practical AI adoption insight from it. And so I appreciate you doing it and hope to see you soon.
Speaker 2Yeah, hope to see you soon too. We should get a copy sometime. Thank you
Speaker 1for listening to the Revenue Leadership Podcast. If you enjoyed it, don't forget to subscribe and you can find a link in the show notes. And be sure to leave a five star review, share it with your network. And please join me next Wednesday for another great conversation.
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