E500 Immortal Hallway Portals and Incriminating Insects

fall never arrives all at once first the air then the light and slowly the things you love begin to find each other a jacket meets a dress a hoodie slips beneath a blazer an old cap finds a new scarf because you don't simply step into the season you create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall find fall your way at ross tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college that's why she shops at bj's wholesale club saving up to 25 off grocery store prices beef jerky microwave meals laundry pods even they can't screw up have you met my kids and with bj's gas she gets there for less they call me the road warrior this is your home road warrior mom home of the save join for just 20 dollars at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save so i've talked a lot about ocd recently with people and it's so eye-opening to hear the different kinds of ocd people have and the way it manifests differently for people um and it's been very eye-opening because i feel like i keep learning about ocd and that's why i love that no cd is a sponsor because they do have so many resources and so much information and i i do wish i had known about it sooner but it's it's always helpful to learn ocd is a lot more than just the stereotypes you know um it's a serious and highly misunderstood condition it can cause stressful unwanted thoughts intrusive thoughts um as they're called and they can be really debilitating so it's not it's not an easy road and not every therapist understands ocd or is qualified to treat it effectively which can make it difficult to find the right help but ocd is highly treatable with a specialized type of therapy called erp or exposure response prevention and with no cd you can do live virtual erp therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in ocd and no cd therapists are highly trained so they really understand no cd and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about um and no cd therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million americans i mean snaps that's that's that's amazing um on top of everything else because even with the erp therapy which um is what helped me get my compulsions under control many years ago and and has remained like the most effective way to help with my ocd i just always recommend no cd but the fact that they do the insurance on top of it is awesome if you think you or someone you know might be struggling with ocd please don't wait to get help go to no cd.com and book a free call with their team to learn more that's no cd.com to schedule a free call and learn more okay i i just need like just count to 500 and i'll be ready okay i'll do it like leona does one two three six five hundred wow now that's special everybody it is our 500th episode i'm trying to figure out how to make this the way it needs to be now why did we get one time do you recall that day yep maybe that was like including listener because no because it was our it was our sixth year and so they just like oh our lovely team just made it demonic oh that's so nice they just tripled it and the man from balloonatics said uh this is insane and i said you work for a company called balloonatics and he said actually i founded it and i said please close the door i i must lock it now so you you're welcome for the business by the way so like balloonatics and a 666 order feels like exactly the right match is all i'll say yeah a hundred percent um wow what a delightful little backdrop 500 balloon i'm no sorry 500 balloons no three balloons with five zero zero you got it how do i explain this there's not 500 balloons but there are it feels like it sometimes you know what my head you know what um i just happy 500 christine i i mean obviously when you add up like listeners episodes and like you know patreon and exactly 666 i bet you today is 666 if you like someone do the math it's girl math don't do the math because i think it's right okay well um we've definitely done already over a hundred listeners episodes so or right yeah so then that would make it 600 600 and then you add like anything we've done for parapods recently and patreon and all that stuff and anytime we've recorded with other people on their shows we get a little bit picky about like well only christine christine was like sneezing during this one we'll cut it that doesn't count you know and so by the time we get to christine fell asleep halfway through this one so i was gonna mention that well you beat me to it sorry i know it's usually your joke um no it's a good one well i was do you have i'm putting you on the spot so you can say no but do you have out of the official 500 episodes do you have any favorite little moments you know i was just talking to i've i've met a lot of people and i've been talking to a lot of people and i've been talking to a lot of people recently that are like um that i it's so random like it's just synchronous like going around and like doing i've been trying to be just more i don't know coming out of sort of a chrysalis type phase of like i'm finally kind of getting back out into the world a little bit and i've met some friends of friends and talked a lot about um uh this kind of stuff because it's like oh when people find out what you do they're like oh i want to talk about i'm always curious like what podcast whatever and um someone asked me like what are your favorites that you've covered and i was like oh it's been a long time so i just had this conversation with like a new person which was kind of fun um and i got to tell them all about israel keys and that was one of my favorite things because it's always really uncomfortable and unpleasant and it you know never know how someone's going to react but it was like okay and then um i thought about it and i was like oh but my other favorite one is anytime we do like my example was db cooper where it's like an age-old mystery or like the summertime or um i'm trying to think like you do a lot of these like or like hh homes something like very um classic but like dark and mysterious i don't know uh and those kind of like age-old like history travel channel history channel style ones where you could just go down every rabbit hole and like find a new explanation or like the spy ones i just love those ones because like there's so many random avenues you could go um and they add a little mistier so that's that's where i landed i mean as far as serial killers like the israel keys one is the one that effed me up the most but i know i share that a lot so um but yeah what about you emma over half a millennia it's worth of that's not quite how that works century a century five centuries oh yeah half a millennia wow well no because it's 500 episodes not 500 years but you know i'll take whatever i i'll take it i you know my favorite i mean obviously covering the winchester mystery house 19 trillion times all 500 times actually i mean the one being there was especially special i would say but that's a that's that's a given the one from the carriage house yeah agreed live from the carriage house live from the carriage house i i think um with the equipment that was so fun any zach bagans especially roses roses rose i was literally falling asleep last night and i started seeing all these roses in my head and then my brain went oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i went roses roses and i went no no we don't put no no we don't need a sound about you we don't need a soundtrack we don't need that i i was also thinking about this is such like a time capsule but during covet our live shows where we had like girl remember them please oh my god like our live shows from the couch sorry i dissociated because you said a really threatening series of terms in one row and like unlike a sleeper agent i became a fall asleep agent which is where a sleeping agent was a sleeper agent and i was like oh my god i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die i'm gonna die which is where you say three words and i go comatose you just knock the fuck out yeah i'm like i'm like covet live shows uh it just all sounded really traumatic so um uh no remember from our couch wait why from our couch shows what did we do i was very drunk i was very drunk and very mentally i mean very like mentally unwell during covet which all of us were but we have like um like a lot of people live streaming in to watch us like live report stories like it was a big deal no we did them just virtually it was like remember what was it called like moment house or something or was it oh your moment has ended we tried to do we tried to do one i flew all the way to la and then the technology didn't work we did it at spotify studios a lot of you might remember well some of you might remember this because like we we pitched it we sold tickets it was this whole thing and then like the entire time m was having health issues oh my god i literally had to leave i like i had to like so bad i'd be upside down and i was like oh my god like off camera like your heart issues and then meanwhile like so stupid and i are having a fucking panic attack and we're trying not to stress you out because you have a heart condition even i were like trying to get something to work and then all of a sudden like the the the help we were allegedly receiving from moment house um no bad blood just saying at the time it was really rough uh just kind of vanished and we were all like so what do we do and then there was just this flash on the screen because we were like oh my god we're like oh my god we're like oh my god this is what happens after the live stream with moment house which was like a virtual live stream thing it just said on the screen your moment has ended and we all went okay i guess that's a clear enough fucking sign and we had to refund everyone and i felt terrible but anyway honestly thank god if i was ever gonna have like heart problems in the middle of a live show that was the one because i was i mean talk about another memory is like anytime we were on stage and me thinking i was gonna like need an ambulance yeah i mean there was a lot so when you say those words i'm like i didn't need a moment no no no you were the one traumatized by that incident i mean i at least got to go back and just hang out in LA for a bit but yeah there was a lot there's a lot yeah but those were fun I mean not that one particularly but I gotta be honest the plunger for it and like like I'm trying to think of like all all the way back at the beginning but I'm not this is not meant to like like shade you at all it truly is one of my favorite memories is when you fall asleep when we were recording oh my god I've noticed like if I just kind of accept that some of people's my closest closest confidants favorite memories of me are just things that I'm really being a dumbass I've just got to like lean into that as like a form of like it was so good it was I mean like you you literally shouldn't write that like but like it just happened naturally like it was just so funny and like the fact that it cuts to ads and then it cuts to good morning it's the next day it is and it's the fact that I was like trying so like mass like trying so hard to perform this version of like I'm awake and laughing and there was like this moment where you were like why are you laughing I didn't say anything and I was like you tried really hard you were like why are you laughing I was like because that was funny and you were like I didn't say anything and I was like oh oh oh Christine it was very I loved it it was a really good memory and so it was the plunger for I mean it was all the times in the especially in the beginning when like we didn't chaos the bread know what we were doing we were trying to figure it out you know to all that good stuff up the live streams we never talk about this remember when we had rain wilson on that was amazing I mean fever drain like really top tier experience it's just there's so many and I got my covid shot that day and I remember being like what is this world we're living in you know I remember he was he didn't say anything particularly critical but he did notice that I record from my bedroom and I don't I still think about that where I'm like should I have not been doing that he went where are you and I went my bedroom and he went you record there I was like I don't know I don't I don't have a whole office effing hilarious yeah I mean and now as someone who's not currently but typically recording in their bed because it's just more comfortable I'm like oh damn but I yeah that was quite a I felt very raw and vulnerable during that experience and talked about semen his semen he well to be fair you kind of started it I encouraged it the conversation neither of us didn't encourage it so I'll give you that yeah but yeah there were a lot of fun times by the way I do want to drink my drink so I'm going to tell you what it is um I went to the big b the big b um got me a drive through uh mocha with oat milk and had therapy this morning and my therapist gave me like a really really lovely and sincere pep talk and it was like oh yeah really needed and it was very like authentically and it's not something like she just kind of throws around you know oh that's lovely yeah like she's very supportive but like today she was like hey I just want you to like really hear me when I say this and I was like oh here we go and then she said like some really assertively kind and just like made me take the compliment and I was like thank you I needed that I needed a little morale boost in this day and age you know so it was a very uh very nice yeah it was nice to leave therapy and feel like you know just um just like yeah I felt I felt good and then I went to my big b and got my little and now I'm here living the dream 500 500 so that's why I mean why do you drink I also drink because it's 500 just to it's I'm not trying to you know force memory lane where it's not where it's not you know just happening organically but just the you know I just woke up thinking about like oh episode one and then what we looked like at episode 10 and episode 50 and 100 and I just it was it was just very sweet today so I'm just very grateful to you very grateful to the listeners and because of that I'm just very grateful to you and I'm just very grateful to you and I'm just I drink a milkshake at 10 a.m listen if I were not sober yes I'd be fucking having a ball okay well I thought you might say that Christine and that's why for your story I have another milkshake and I'll drink that in your honor oh that's so nice so I'm double fisting for the as an adult person now in your body so i do appreciate the sacrifice i'm not 24 anymore you know what i'm saying we should post that picture of us with that ice cream cake like when we were just like it was when we got 10 000 listens 10 000 downloads oh yeah and there was like one of me in the hospital for crones and you were like you like brought the newspaper of us being mentioned um it feels like a weird museum wall where they have like a black like a sepia toned picture of us i mean i remember the first time we were with a network and we saw like our logo framed on someone's wall that oh it felt outrageous it felt like we were all punking ourselves and everyone yeah it was amazing i want to um also take a moment to say that i'm so grateful for this and everything we've built and it's it's beautiful and wonderful and it's been the most healing wonderful it like surreal experience of my life and i i think when we did the episode and it came out and the announcement about me leaving came out there was like maybe a disconnect because well a you've talked about this a lot of like we've known for a long time and so we've had a lot of time to process and maybe it didn't come off as like emotionally but be like yeah i i didn't want it to seem like i was like and by you know i um yeah it's it's been a very bittersweet whole um decision making process and all this but yeah it is there is just so much um love and joy and like literally laughter and hilarious hilarity and things that will never go away you know so there's that and um i am i am forever just so i mean think about like what the fuck else would we have been doing for the last 10 years you know like imagine if we just were like it's insane to think about i'd probably still be at the prop house i mean yeah i guess i would have like clawed my way into like a full like a more full-time long-term position in lichelodeon maybe or and then like i don't know felt kind of it's weird it's funny how when the what ifs come out it's like well just wherever you last were off because you can't imagine what the next probably that's not what would have happened i probably wouldn't have gotten a job ended up like doing i mean i guarantee covid would have probably sent me straight back to virginia like valid point we probably and who knows we might have not even stayed in la for another five whatever anyway it doesn't matter but it's it does matter but it's not you know there's nothing we can but it's beautiful it's been a dream yeah and i love it i love it i just feel like we did such an awesome thing and we've done we're continuing to do such an awesome thing and um yeah i'm very proud of us really 500 episodes not a fucking small feat dude i feel i swear i feel like at some point when we kind of felt like oh maybe this is going to be something i feel like we said the phrase like at episode 500 we were like oh that's like a decade from now we would laugh and laugh yeah yeah we were also bad at math back then too we were also bad at math back then too like i was like we were like that's i was like you idiot that's half a millennia that's in 500 years like that's how dumb that's and you were like oh you're right and that's how i ran with it yeah we were behaving that way um we were so dumb we actually um how dumb were we we got a like a a phone number uh before we even knew the name of the podcast we just bought a phone number for some reason and we didn't know what we would do so this will be important yeah we did all of it we thought this will be an extra ten dollars but it's worth it for the phone number um absolutely so i'm glad i hope nobody probably ever called us um but i'm sure over these nine ten years there's um maybe one spam call in that mailbox someone must have called it at some point right so i would think so um anyway so all that to say i love the little 500s i love the i love the little memory lane talk i have been talking to people a lot more about like just like what pat what the fun topics have been and stuff like that well i have one for you today and at some point i'm gonna have to run off and get my extension cord because my oh yeah no no worries the nature of not sitting in my nook means i don't have a charger an outlet near me so accessible yeah gotcha um by the way and i was i can't wait for my fucking story for you today because um search and i kind of did a like a team effort and it's just it's just kick-ass i can't wait well i'm glad to hear that i i was mine was oddly i don't know what the right word is it's gonna be awesome don't even second guess it for a minute no i'm not saying this i'm saying there's some sort of like i don't know what i literally don't know what the right word is so i don't want to say the wrong one but i see what's the is it synchronous synchronicity or whatever the phrase is because a while ago weeks ago i posted like um by the way i'm sitting in a shorter chair so now i can like rest my arm on the table and it's so cute it's kind of cute it's giving like you're like on the phone with like a high school friend you know and just like yeah i'm sitting in a shorter chair so now i can like rest my arm on the table yeah usually i'm like fee-fi-fo-fum hunching over so yeah and i'm like all the way in the back like yelling yeah fall never arrives all at once first the air then the light and slowly the things you love begin to find each other a jacket meets a dress a hoodie slips beneath a blazer an old cap finds a new scarf because you don't simply step into the season you create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall find fall your way at ross we all know i like my my razzlem powdered water my little powder for my drinkies but that's the only flavor of that brand that i like and i would i was really perusing for a variety i wanted a variety it could be like you were looking for a cure maybe for yourself and the way that you wanted maybe to cure your thirst no that's interesting that you say something like that because i i really try to only drink water in the house but i get really bored very easily of of it tasting like nothing so luckily cure came in yeah and fix it for us came in from cure i'm currently obsessed with their peach tea flavor that's very nice they have the peach tea sounds so good i need to try that they have a uh berry pomegranate i think that's not the one that i yes currently in my pantry also delicioso they have a raspberry they have strawberry kiwi once they have razzlem i'm officially just going to move right over um you're just like fully moved in yeah well and what i like too is like they're not too sweet they're not too salty they taste like actual fruit without the like artificially flavor which i know people kind of struggle with um and like has a ton of flavors which is also like people like you and i who get bored very easily with our beverage choices and need constant stimulation on that front yeah they really make it work for us and get us hydrated at the same time here's the electrolyte mix that i've started reaching for daily and with clean ingredients and nothing artificial it's become easy to stay hydrated find it on amazon or save 20 at curehydration.com with code drink um okay so the reason that this is a little eerie for me is a couple weeks ago i posted uh asking people like what do you think episode 500 is going to be and i did have different plans i ended up reading through people's stuff and i was like oh that's not a bad idea i should do that i should do that and someone suggested the obvious of like you can't not do a zach bagans episode and so i was like okay fine i'll do that and i ended up find i was just on looking at ghost avengers episodes i ended up finding one called pioneer saloon now hang on i was gonna do that and i was doing my notes and i was like this just doesn't feel like i'm like something i'm supposed to be doing not to be like oh woo woo but it's like i was like this doesn't spark it's not it's not giving me i don't feel the sparkle feel aligned right now for this not right now not right now maybe one day but not right now and so i was like man i'm just gonna like toss these notes i had been doing these notes for a while and i was like i'm just gonna scrap them and start over and i googled like funniest zach bagans moments or whatever and reddit of course led me to what i am going to cover and the reason that it's sync whatever that word is because the pioneer saloon is like oddly tied to this episode and gets an insane amount of mentions in this episode is that not so weird so it like brought you back to that so next week i will be covering the pioneer saloon on principle wow so it was like you gotta actually do this but yeah we can hold for a week oh i love that thank god the universe was like don't scrap the notes because you're just gonna cover them a week i was gonna say you did say you tossed the notes i don't know what that means on the modern parlance it means like press the x i press the red and it said we auto save this don't worry yeah okay good good good so next week will be the pioneer saloon this week though is the wolf creek inn what's that well it's in wolf creek oregon don't you know not that oregon's a place that says that there um but uh this is oregon's this is at the very least it's official that it's oregon's oldest continuously running in however zach said it's the oldest in the whole pacific northwest so he would fucking he would say that um because i always say it it is on the national register of historic places and it was originally called the wolf creek tavern not an inn but um fun fact the name wolf isn't it at all because this area used to be covered with wolves and when they opened as a tavern i don't know why they switched from into tavern it was all a set they it still feeds people still lodges people did back then as well so i don't know semantics so when people were staying overnight there there were so many wolves in the area that this building that did not have indoor plumbing and like there was an outhouse so many wolves that they were like don't even use the outhouse they would just give them like uh like chamber pots just to like just don't even hold themselves don't even risk it don't even they're like going to the outhouse will kill you actually because there's so many wolves at night oh my god what and i don't know if it's like if before this building was here this place was covered in wolves but i think it's because the tavern opened and this was like the only place that was serving a hot right another smelling food scratch and like animals yeah exactly and it's like opening a restaurant on a campsite and now there's bears everywhere there's trash and like yeah exactly yeah yeah exactly so um anyway fun fact on the name that's why it's called i love how i'm like we'll get ants and they're like we'll get wolves i'm like oh so there will be blood yeah there will be wolves oh i have best stick to will be ants that's enough for me i said it was the oldest continuously run in in at least oregon started in 1883 still running wow sidebar does this say 005 to you nope okay because it's flipped on my end that i'm like am i a full fucking idiot i promise you i would have made some very okay hilarious hilarious rude commentary if it said 005 perfect because i really just thought for a and it's a stop for travelers along the way and by the way i mean the applegate trail not the oregon trail weirdly not the or shocking right we're in oregon i think that's why because the oregon trail was supposed to get you there maybe that can't no that would have come before the oregon trail definitely existed by then right well don't ask me that someone's gonna yell at me maybe they're the same thing i mean the flip the the floppy disk came out in nineteen ninety-one so it must have been around then that's interesting 92 really no i made that up okay i have no idea also the video game came out in 1971 so i'm like fucking so wrong um yeah let's see uh that was in the year yeah um pretty close not 1830s okay so yeah it definitely existed so okay all right i guess there isn't just one trail per state like i guess i'm just like being silly but i know but i'm gonna go with the oregon trail okay yeah i'm with you well so the travelers along applegate trail they would uh apparently it was a 16-day trek uh to get on this trail to get from san francisco to portland okay and the wolf creek inn was like the only stop in between them no wonder it is wolves wolves and like but also what a fucking business plan of like well if you want food but how is nobody else just popping up right next door i guess nobody just i think maybe it was just like early like there was just like people hadn't gotten there yet a given yeah to have that one spot um but so originally it was called the six-bit house because uh henry smith originally charged people 75 cents or six bits oh okay and 75 cents and was in the 1880s so i actually did not do the math this time sorry to know what that means but um fun fact for cowboys who came in who i saw cowboys and had to keep this in for you yep even though it was 75 cents to stay there for the night if there were some like just really tired cowboys who are passing through and they're like i just need to sleep i don't need like a full room or a shower or a food i just want to sleep here um he would actually just charge them 10 cents however they had to go sleep basically standing up in the attic rafters whoa i've heard about like sleeping out with your horse but i've not heard of sleeping upright in an attic rafter like fucking nosferatu well do you know where the phrase hangover comes from no it's when people were drunk and the cheapest option for them to find a place to sleep was there was literally just like they would just hang themselves over a pole while they were drunk and we sleep it off they would just throw their body over a hole over a pole and just pardon me what they'd hang over it until they woke up never learned this on this and on this of all podcasts too we've never discussed this before it's amazing i know i think it was like like one cent or two cents to for the pole because otherwise you had to like sit in like the dirty gross like the ground where there's like horse poop everywhere wow so you get a nice stick to lean on or pull yes your ribs hurt later yeah but at least you're clean ish ish but it was like the cheapest option besides until you vomit on your shoes over that bar and then man that's that's wild i had never i've never heard that before i'm fantastic so uh these these guys for 10 cents they could be inside but they had to be in the rafters and i don't know if there was a pole for them to hang over inside but you've got to climb into the roof rafters what the fuck kind of nonsense but you have to be at the top story and we got a little bat here's a situation they were in the attic rafters but that did not mean that the attic rafters were in the attic had a floor so so you're a fucking bat so what they would do i think because it sounds to me that there were either just some loose boards everywhere kind of above like the the ceiling like above the ceiling of the top floor or it sounds like there was no no floor at all and it was just ledges like just edges around the building so just like maybe some beams or something maybe yeah so their option was to pretty much just lean against the wall and hope they didn't fall forward and so one of the things they would do is they would dig the spurs of their boots into the wood and hope it kind of held them while they leaned back on the wall wow and slept and you just hope you don't fucking fall but to this day you can still see the marks from people digging their spurs into the wood to to hold them up wow that's awesome up until this moment i was always like what the fuck is a spur even for and i did not think that but now i have a reason oh well that's for it's it's for to spur your horse on but yes also i guess for wow okay so i told you the hangover thing much today yeah they're for the back of your boots to get the horse to oh little knives to stab your friends yeah of course yeah of course um yeah anyway that is uh people can still see the spur marks that's really cool if you happen to climb into the attic rafters of a hundred year old haunted house i happen to will so when it first opened uh like i said this was one of the only stops between san francisco and portland which was a 16-day hike at the time later um henry smith who built this place he expanded it from being the six-bit house he either expanded the building that was already there or he reopened it across the street but now was calling it a first-class hotel um and there were 16 rooms for people there were two parlors one for a man one for women um they had a dining room and by the 1930s this was like the popular spot to be so the first like 50 years was just to like give you a place to stay now by the 1930s literally that's it yeah people are retreating there because it's surrounded by woods and a river and it's very nature pro-nature um so but they're not still in the ceiling right i don't think so anymore can you imagine if you're like we have a first-class hotel now go sleep in the ceiling did you bring your spurs well you'll need to wedge your way into the hardwood i didn't even mention this part earlier the like one of the other things that would happen if you fell like you weren't just falling like you were falling into people's guest rooms like so imagine being a guest so you don't okay but you better get a discount for being down there too because like that's imagine you actually pay the full price to have a guest room and now you have to wonder like is someone gonna just fall in i would not be paying full price i mean i probably would be but like man that's not fair wow i forgot how good a milkshake can be um oh man i don't get them like that like i used to okay so john wayne used to go here robert redford used to go here mary pickford sinclair lewis orson wells who i always thought had the best name um and then most importantly clark gable and his second wife carol lombard oh so this blew my mind when i first saw that note because they are also main characters in the story of the pioneer saloon and so i was like what are the and i had i had yet to realize that there was going to be overlap because i hadn't watched ghost adventures yet so i didn't know that there was what the fuck is so i'm just doing these notes and the saloon is like not an organ i don't think it's in um it's in it's in vegas or it's in nevada what and this is an organ and i remember seeing that i going what are the odds two sets of notes tonight and they were both talking about clark gable and carol lombard range it was very weird and so i was like anyway keep it moving and then it just kept happening and i'm like what the fuck's going on yeah they synchronicity that means you're on the right track well i hope so so let me know how these notes are by the end they're you're nailing it keep in mind that i'm not going to be talking to those two i'm going to bring them up later another big name here was an author named jack london oh yeah i know about him okay perfect so he used to he summered here for a year while he wrote his book called valley of the moon and um i'm gonna say all the names of the celebrities that i that i just mentioned i'm gonna say those were alleged because i saw on one plaque that apparently one of the owners was trying to draw in more guests and maybe exaggerated the amount of people that had come to visit it was like somebody's agent and he's like actually it was and rutherford b hayes was here yeah yeah the president well yeah you could call him that yeah yeah so um i will say clark gable and his uh second wife and um jack london were definitely here those are for sure um another person that was said to frequent the inn in the 1860s was a stage coach driver that i guess was popular that was a stage coach driver and he was a stage coach driver and he was a stage coach driver then for his reputation but then got even more popular in his death because this guy's name was charlie stage coach driver 1860s he was known to be a real tough guy and there's two quotes about him that i enjoyed they said quote charlie drove his team hard spat his tobacco juice harder and cussed like samuel clemens oh and then the other quote is he only missed work after payday when he was too hung over to drive because he was hung over a literal so already he was a rough and tumble he had he was well known in the area i guess but when he died this gets tricky folks the mortician learned that charlie was biologically female whoops a daisy uh i don't know if that was something charlie wanted anybody to know and now over 100 years later i'm fucking talking about it publicly on yeah yeah yeah um so we don't know and then no there was no notes about this this is just my own caveat here we don't know if charlie was trans we don't know if charlie was in disguise just to keep themselves safe in an 1860s world not made for women um the official story that i was seeing in like multiple sources was that she yikes was an orphan named charlotte so now we're just dead naming her too sorry everybody uh who ran away to be a stagecoach driver it's like that's really vague and how would any of us know that and also that like ran away yeah that just is like the euphemism for nobody knows probably something more complex and nuanced happened but we're just gonna say ran away it's easier yeah like and like how would we know that because we're only finding out any of this after charlie's dead right so exactly yeah so we're just piecing things together we know nothing about so while passing as male this is like this is meant to be a fun fact but i want to give another caveat while passing as male charlie was able to register to vote in the 1860s and voted for ulysses s grant fun fact um and sources go on to say this could possibly make charlie the first woman to vote and it's like oh like first of all no because i'm sure there have been plenty of times that that has happened so let's not even go there it's a little weird of a thing to be like let's harp on this again when it's like not a verifiable thing that you can like yeah no it's like just because now you're saying that charlie's a girl but in a cool way with the cool fact you're still maybe outing someone else who clearly didn't want to be known as anything other than charlie why do we keep talking about that you know like why yeah not you and i i mean like why is that why does that keep meaning having to be something for yeah and also like i guarantee you in the 1860s charlie was let's assume let's assume it was a gender identity thing charlie was not the first trans person 1860 was not the year that trans men started existing so certainly i'm pretty sure that there were others quote in disguise or passing as male who also registered this is the first time that charlie was registered as a woman just one of the ones that you were able to find you know yeah yeah post-mortem yeah and that like had some sort of story to it that you could kind of create a narrative around yeah exactly so a lot of people like to say like oh we're haunted for thank god no one's saying like we're haunted by one of them transgenders but you know they're haunted by a stage coach who was actually a girl crazy so that's where we stand and also a lot of sources were also saying that she had one eye he had one eye so um i don't even know what that means they kept saying one-eyed stage coach and i'm like is that a just is that a descriptor what it's all very odd i have like no yeah i have no sort of content like no no contextual like um i bring nothing to the table to to illuminate any of this i literally brought something to the table and still feel like i brought nothing i thought maybe i could help with i have nothing i've got nothing um just like if we were just gonna like make this the way charlie maybe wanted it to be made charlie was a stage coach driver the end the end the end and yes he also voted for grant sick oh sick i guess tight um so i just wanted to mention that because charlie gets mentioned later as a ghost got it got it got it uh in 1920 charlie is such a nice like especially nowadays like gender neutral name like that's that's great love that well yeah also charlie like could have just been like a masked lesbian and like pointing fingers you know like charlie could have been anything or just like intersex or there could have literally been just like or could have just been a system wait till you see though what my topic is because it could have just been a fucking autopsy mistake i'm just gonna say that you never know well i hope charlie wherever you are i hope you're having a good time i hope you're i hope you're just laughing at yeah right i hope you're laughing at all this and not feeling like what is going on charlie's like i'll never know rest my legacy right i know it keeps happening these so in 1925 more people started coming through because the pacific coast highway was uh built out and so that actually led to more people coming so that led to even more improvements to the end to keep it running fun fact one of the improvements was a sign out front that still exists today so it's as of this year it's over 100 years old that sign alone um even though the building is several more decades older than that 50 years later the building needed very expensive renovation so literally the state of oregon bought the inn and started redoing it and today the inn still offers lodging and food including it's mainly comfort food but they have a jack london scramble oh ooh la la in case you're interested in that and the rooms now have private bathrooms thank god it is pet friendly but very similar to way i don't remember what it was called but it was the one in tucson arizona we stayed at where like they intentionally have kept it looking as it did when it was opened so it yeah the you know what i'm talking about c start to the c start to the c no no i always say that and it usually means there's a c in the word i've learned when i say that it usually means there's a c in the word but i don't i don't know i don't know off the top of my head why am i not remembering it doesn't i don't know but there's a there's a hotel that we've discussed before congress congress hotel hotel c was right okay good for me um but uh basically this building looks as it did in the late 1800s early 1900s so it's very small there's no like electronics in there it's meant for you to essentially be experiencing living history while you're staying there um and some of the rooms have now been discontinued for reservations because they wanted to like fully deck it out to look almost like a museum as it did at that time wow um so can you like see them or is it like you just can't stay in them i think you can i think you can go in and like stand there and like see like look around oh that's cool i can't stay there and one of them is the room that jack london would summer in got it um the last thing i'll say before i get to the ghost is that october is their biggest month obviously they know that they're incredibly haunted they go full out with the decorations they have guided spooky lantern tours they have a kid-friendly haunted house attraction um and they of course have ghosts so let's talk about that so thank you for bearing with me through all of that no i love it um okay so jack london is one of their ghosts he's heard uh talking in his room making noises shuffling around in there he's also seen standing in his old room and people often feel that someone is staring at them from that room whether they're passing by or they're just standing there and they're just standing there and they're just whatever that is they just feel like there's an energy from it and they hear odd noises in there so that's jack's room clark gable's room um people see a woman in there they hear her singing uh a lot of people it's like the the theories are endless with her she could be a staff member or a guest or related to one of the owners or one of clark gable's mistresses because apparently he was just a big old cheater no so it could have been anything people also see uh this woman walking around on the main floor and apparently she's very active during investigations some of these fuck-ass sources were like obviously that's charlie and i'm like um i'm pretty sure charlie who spent their entire life passing and or identifying as male is not appearing as a woman doing government business like voting and stuff without a question yeah so what okay clearly like like i to register to vote don't you have to like say what you're well i guess did you have to back then if women couldn't also vote it's just assumed i mean i think you i don't know i think it was let's say a little more lax you could kind of fudge your fudge your way i think you could have just had a gruff voice and gone look at me do i look like i need to tell you you know something like that let me put put me down for ulysses yeah big ug you know i'm down for the big u um okay so that's the woman who i guarantee you is not charlie but okay right others have seen an older man they say he's an older gentleman which is very nice love a gentleman as a ghost he apparently is walking through the hall sometimes he accidentally brushes past people but people will feel him brush past them doesn't feel very gentlemanly to me that's true like slow down feels a little bit like can you take some space not man spread like actually you're pissing me off like actually this is my space like who called you a gentleman another man okay moving on it was it you there's uh there's also apparently this is this needs a lot more coverage and yet nobody had anything to say about it there's a humanoid vampire creature in the woods outside good as you would have i hope good check um next fangs and blood all around its mouth i love that and one theory is that other spirits here are protecting the property from this creature from getting in hence the that plus the fangs and the blood makes it like a vampire like it can't come in imagine dying and being like wow what a hard life i lived and now i get to like experience peace and it's like me and my sharp teeth finally get to sleep no not that guy like the people in the hotel who die and are like oh feel finally at peace and then the other ghosts are like actually you're you have to stay here and join our army defending this property from that fucking werewolf wait a minute i didn't sign up for this like that's not fair that they have to fucking protect the property from a fucking werewolf truly if someone told me i'm i'm dead and finally i'm dead i'm dead five minutes later someone says oh great we needed another person on our team um now you're going to do endless unpaid physical labor yeah at the risk of your death oh wait you're a ghost so you're just gonna perpetually be threatened exactly for the rest of your existence no i'm not in i'm not putting on that name tag fuck you i'm actually gonna go hang out with the fucking bloody fang man outside and wait yeah he seems like i have he gives me freedom he's outside bye like he's spending the rest of his eternal torment out in nature i think and then a minute later you hear ah never mind help and then they're like told we're trying to tell them well so this vampire guy they it gets worse because and by worse i mean just like how charlie had had a bad ending here so some people say like oh the spirits are protecting the house from keeping that guy from getting in other people say that he actually can get in other people say oh it's not a vampire it's a person with like mental health issues who just wants to look scary so everyone will leave him alone so he covers his face with blood and lives in the woods oh huh yeah who fucking asked you who wrote that who wrote that that and delete it who wrote it and then can you unwrite it real quick can you i i don't want to see that anymore because like there's no evidence of that are you just throwing out things here yeah yes the answer is yes it's so someone's suffering and now we're just also gonna like make fun of the fact that they're okay whatever um and then there's the another rumor separately that says that this vampire beast is just a spirit however not threatening at all so it either goes from scary monster to not scary ghost to just a person to anyway is in general is there any theory that this is not a real entity at all i mean that's my theory oh okay okay so it's not like oh we've all seen this person or whatever it's like someone who has a mental illness it's just like oh it's it's a legend more certainly that's what makes it more frustrating that i'm like we didn't have to bring people into this at all oh okay so there's not actually okay then yeah that's that's a cool cool awesome got it i'm assuming people have thought they've seen something but i don't know why right i don't know i've truly again this is another that sounds like the fucking crops or any of these stories were whatever where it's like oh the man in the woods who escaped from the insane asylum you know classic trope so i'm not totally surprised i uh i'm with you because i'm like i mean people are gonna make up stuff but i'm just like can we just stick to like the the ghosts or something that would be ridiculous well in general uh people hear voices footsteps they feel a lot of cold spots there's a lot of flickering lights doors open and close people see shadow figures people feel themselves getting watched people experience crazy prickling skin feelings nice people wake up to odd vivid dreams people will smell perfumes in some areas they'll smell really bad smells in other areas they'll hear the piano playing itself downstairs they'll hear the doors slam on their own people hear someone shuffling through their room in the middle of the night and then for the rest of the night feel like someone is watching them from the corner of the room horrifying people will hear i hate when i bet someone has had both those things happen where you wake up from a bad dream and then you hear shuffling and then you just feel someone staring at you because you're like oh phew it was a dream and then yeah oh no no no no horror movie horror movie people also hear kids playing with a ball in empty rooms no people will find objects missing and then reappearing in new places mediums have come through that said the spirits are active and paranormal investigators have gotten evps of people singing chatter laughter and then phrases like good morning conversation and don't leave that's my cue to go actually it's opposite day and i'll be leaving start the car now um other evps seem to be even more directly intelligent including when a paranormal investigator asked am i at the wolf creek inn and the evp right away said yes you are wow that i love when i like a media evp yeah i love them um furniture will rearrange itself when you leave the room which is giving poltergeist totally items will fly off off the shelves onto the ground especially this one baking pan in the kitchen that i guess just flies through the kitchen all the fuck this baking pan yeah i guess it's just a little bit of a mess but i think it's a little bit of a mess I feel like it's just the condensed energy of someone who like burnt themselves on the pan and it flings yeah wait that's so interesting um i know you just kind of said it but like that's such an interesting point like that like panic like override of your reptilian brain like just toss the pan i feel like that could totally translate to the afterlife if you ever if you ever saw the baking pan flying i guarantee you there'd be an evp of someone screaming like motherfucker like 100 the clanging like the and everyone jumping like there would have been a whole commotion you're right oh i love that theory good one thank you i still got it we solved it people feel something touching them brushing up against them like i mentioned earlier and the worst one um confirmed by the owner of the building is that at night people say what that when they're in bed they feel someone playing with their toes so i'm just gonna step aside now and throw up i'm gonna step aside and put big socks on and then big shoes on and then i'm gonna run into my car steel toed boots yeah yeah yeah yeah if you want a wild time apparently room eight is the most haunted and the owner uh his name's andrew he felt something when he was in that room literally jump on top of him and he like started like trying to fight it which is oh i mean what else are you gonna do i mean yeah i would do it's funny because i wasn't there it's funny because it wasn't me yeah yeah but like if someone jumped on me in the middle of the night in a haunted house i would do the same thing i would do the haunted ass room but even if it's not in a haunted ass room in any ass room if a person jumped on me in the middle of the night what the fuck hank are you listening he's not a person shortly after this happened to him a medium came to the inn and said something happened to you in room eight well okay you don't need to like air my dirty laundry and honestly there's only like nine rooms there so i guess she could have just luck of the draw picked the right one i don't know she seemed to really be like something happened to you there and he was like i feel like that's pretty on the nose it'd be funny if she was like it was me i jumped on you oh yeah did you remember when we hung out the other day in do i look familiar remember when you punched me i deserve that do you see this black guy oops my bad i thought it would be a fun prank so he's also this is andrew still he's heard people in the hallway when totally alone in the building at one time in the kitchen he saw something that he described as quote a scene straight out of ghostbusters this is the rest of the quote he saw lids popping off of containers sailing across the room and spatulas moving by themselves oh shit someone's cooking up a storm yeah wow um when asked about like if guests have experiences here he is quoted saying i wouldn't say everyone but just about everyone wow and then he said if you're there long enough something is just bound to happen i love a place like that where it's like oh it's just inevitable oh keep in mind that if you're there long enough something is just bound to happen most reports and i've told you this already but keep in mind that most reports so far have said that although this place is incredibly active nothing here is malicious or dangerous wow enter zach bagan's team oh here we go so immediately like one of the first sentences out of his episode on the wolf creaking zach bagan says of course immediately because he heard vampire beast and glommed on yep he talks about the vampire beast he says it influences people to be extremely violent for them to be violent for them to be violent for them to be follows people back to their room and attacks them that seems correct that seems like information he got straight from the source which is his own imagination like and he's saying this about the quote beast that is staying away from everyone and that like is not allowed at the property and is like not invited inside so i don't know he's just on a hammock by the river and it's like god people just love to hate me don't they man it must be like man he yeah wow uh so at in the same station zach's team then claims that they've done research on the woods and this vampire beast and they found info oh they found info on say it with me multiple murders and body parts in the woods i thought you were gonna say on reddit and then i was just like they found information on reddit but so you're saying they found information on multiple allegedly multiple body murders and body parts in the woods so they're saying this obviously must the the vampire is responsible okay so i like the use of multiple that's good yeah he said that yeah i know that feels correct from him um and then by the way it's never discussed again and certainly not by anyone he interviewed which means you know he asked them about it and none of them were willing to play his little games never usually never um he i did i decided i was like oh well if you were able to find that information i'm certainly gonna go look it up so what i found was not multiple murders and body parts in the woods by the way i found the name ivan malott who was the backpacker murderer i don't know if you've heard about him oh yes i've covered him yes okay ivan malott yes a long time ago that's a dark one i think so the reason that he came out or well he didn't come out the reason he got brought up is because he killed people in woods in australia and his murders inspired a horror movie called wolf creek and they happen to be at the wolf creek end so i'm wondering if zach's team just oh my god um yeah like associated like or conflated all that together with like murders associated with wolf creek and there's a movie a horror movie called wolf creek where people die and they're inspired by a real murderer no doubt no doubt they were like see dead bodies oh my god okay so by the way it was episode 241 time travel art and cubed wombat poop um where we're hiding flasks in nancy reagan's memoir oh i love when we did that yeah i love doing that in terms of um christian here was a gruesome tale of ivan malott in the backpack murders yeah wow you know 241 was almost exactly halfway from this episode whoa wow um so i'm guessing that's what happened with the ghost adventures research team i mean like using a bare amount of media literacy i could kind of agree just from afar i think you made a very very astute assessment of the situation and i don't have any counter argument well good to know so then after talking about all this they then uh it's two for two with zach bagans he then talks about how when the inn was built an indigenous person was hanged on the property so oh you could just use your imagination for what came from that or what they were implying what they were applying maybe what visual they use to sometimes they do a nice cut scene to reenact which is always nice you're on it yeah you're on it christine so luckily they never talk about that again but it's mentioned so there you go they do interviews with the staff now and one heard a one woman who worked there or she was the daughter of the owners she heard a little little girl say hi really enthusiastically behind her when she was alone in a room whoa so she hears the little girl go hi uh she even shows a picture of this little girl that they think they got on camera oh right it's not bad but it's not it doesn't blow my mind either it could be but to hear the voice and then get something that's sort of your your i confused you they um oh oh sorry i just put the two things together because it wasn't the same instant it wasn't at the same moment no okay okay okay she's separately she separately found had got a picture of this girl that she had heard say hi to her okay so um which is my fault i said that in a way no but still but that's the same person right like the same person person but that's so cool like oh she heard her and then like got visual sort of visual evidence i don't know you're a homie um yes yes i mean that's what i thought you meant yeah well so what i want you to pay most attention to coming up is the fact that this little girl said hi to her in a very very enthusiastic way like the girl like the interviewee or uh she you know replicates it and sounds like a little girl very excited this is i just want to say like this reminds me of when i heard a little girl in my house and it was like i know exactly the tone because it was like daddy and it was like so happy yes and it was like yeah it's a real shame you brought that memory into this because now i have to ruin it for you zach's response to the enthusiasm of this girl this is a here we go here we go that's what a little girl would want to do a little girl would want you to be excited a little girl would want you to open your arms up and come play with the little girl and offer her some candy hello zachary go to prison right now okay so ring ring dispatch yeah remember how i told you someday i'd be calling about this it's go time yeah code red so okay let me code code ed hardy you know what it means yeah yeah operation ed hardy operation ed hardy is in full full steam ahead mode so here's the thing i'm going to half defend zach i think the production gave him a really awkward instruction to like you have to segue into this other interview you've heard about like that's what you want you to think yeah well because like obviously they should the editors should have put scenes differently or they should have at least helped zach out with the the segue the sagoo that he was trying - Is that what they do here? - I mean, maybe they did. And he said, actually, I have a better way, which sometimes I do think- i do think that does happen basically what was what was trying to happen was that the next scene was going to be him interviewing another person who had an experience with this little girl and candy so it but the way that it got crazy when you first hear that you go hmm zach what are you talking about i'm calling the police real quick but he clearly was trying to like think in advance of how they would transition into the other the next interview god it was like an awkward introduction to the next in real time trying to foresee the editing and and was like we will be inserting that candy interview after this one so let me try to i mean remember the scene where he went to the candy thing and he got so fucking weird like he has a weird talked about his butt and he talked about how much like how little sugar he eats like he clearly has a fixation about candy so i think that might be part of it well you So hold on to your butt because what's about to happen is this interview about candy good and remember the only way i stumbled upon this topic was because reddit said i said what's the what are some funny zach moments and everyone said you have to go watch this episode because the interview he does about candy so we've now i can't wait i can't wait i can't believe this is happening right now okay go ahead so uh he is here's the thing clearly him and this man who happens to be the husband of the last girl we were just talking about who saw the girl who said hi they're they're married in real life this guy um has clearly been speaking to zach for a while and all of that got edited out because of course zach's first question immediately no introduction to anything that we know about this man zach immediately says the phrase how many jolly ranchers were you taken down a day it's like there's the seamless transitions the leading into things was not on on the docket for this episode what in the what in the god you you just hear him say let me finish that last quote for you everybody he says yeah make it seamless for us and make it seamless how he did this beautifully so happily okay seamless i'm gonna do both both of his quotes and i want you to know that very little happened in between great that's what a little girl would want to do a little girl would want you to be excited a little girl would want you to open your arms up and come play with the little girl and offer her some candy how many jolly ranchers were you taking down a day i mean really if i didn't know better i would think this was a chris hansen excerpt like it is challenging at best i think like there's maybe a a lead-in sentence one lead-in sentence in those two sentences where it's like because your husband had a thing with candy happened to him right and then we go right into this so how many do you what you can't first of all that's a fucking rude ass thing to say to somebody but that's what i'm saying i swear to god i know they must have been talking about jolly ranchers for a while for him for there's no way his first straight out the pack question was how many jolly ranchers were you taking out a day jolly ranchers hadn't even been mentioned yet in this interview so like clearly this had been discussed unless they did insane research a la let's see that fictional movie that sounds a little bit like the place we're at and and then like conflate the two you know maybe they did some research and found out that jolly ranchers were invented nearby i don't know well the reason that they were talking about jolly ranchers is because i guess this guy has a jolly rancher problem which had clearly been addressed to him before this conversation for him to even ask okay but so m maybe he like like benefit of the doubt here for zachary i don't do this often but i don't know if he's going to be maybe this guy was like the first thing i gotta tell you is i love a jolly rancher like maybe he's like before two things about me my name is ted and i fucking love a jolly rancher and i fuck with jolly ranchers day in day out end of interview maybe maybe that was it because zach says how many were you taken down which is a weird way to put it a weird way and the guy i'm not kidding kind of have to be on zach's side here the guy says easily over a hundred a day quote one right after the other one right after the other is was this man's phrasing when asked the jolly rancher question the amount of like gum gums in those candies and things that are just gonna kind of line you up on the inside i don't forget that i'm thinking about like how jagged like glass are your teeth yeah i guess you're not sucking on a hundred a day those are gonna pull your teeth out biting those are gonna rip your though because those stick into those molars you're eating them like m&ms or something like you're not like if i were to suck like it's it's very much like mr owl how many licks does it take like if i were to start my day put a jolly rancher my mouth and consecutively just suck on them i certainly wouldn't get through a hundred you're gnashing at him you're either gnashing at him well he said one after the other i was gonna say or five at a time but you said one after the other so he's either swallowing them whole sickening chewing them down sickening um now keep in mind as you mentioned earlier so love that you did this you fucking mentioned his weird aversion to sugar zach's aversion to sugar and now amanda's telling him that he's having easily a hundred jolly ranchers a day he's probably like spitting out about this information he probably short-circuited a little bit his pupils dilated i wish you could see that man was bewildered i mean the amount of like where he was like i didn't know you're allowed to do that you know very next sentence out of his mouth 100 pieces equals 1.3 pounds of jolly ranchers per day don't okay first of all thank you fucking like google ai what do you want that's not helpful to anybody i mean the if i mean truly you're right to think about like the sugar of 1.3 pounds of jolly rancher sugar in your stomach just has to do something to you i mean it is effective when they show the amount of sugar on a tv ad or whatever to me i'm always like whoa um so maybe they could have done that and you know the jolly rancher isn't i'm not trying to shame this guy for like if like by the way right no shame about eating jolly ranchers i've eaten a hundred of a lot more dangerous things in my life i know it sounds like we're being shamey i'm i'm trying to make more fun of the behavior the response of promise promise but i i will say i'm sure like zach who is like all you know beefcake because he's so he's so like intense about his body he's for sure thinking like if it's 1.3 pounds of sugar a day just in jolly ranchers and you know this guy because you know what he did he put it into his my fitness pal i bet you 100 bucks to see well i'm saying like there's no way that jolly ranchers are the only sugar that man's eating every day because like without even thinking about it everyone's eating more sugar than that so he's definitely calculating i don't know if he has time to eat anything else that man loved jolly ranchers and you know what i hope the jolly rancher reaches out to him and goes we could use a little facelift on our brand you want to be in on that good for i hope you i hope something good comes out of it you know i do too because like don't no shame in that game you know just you do you it's none of my fucking business it's also none of zachary's fucking business well zach i'm sure like that those facts we've really derailed here but i will say the jolly rancher thing like you should have seen his face he looked floored i gotta watch it i gotta and then he basically said like well since you have a jolly rancher problem he then said do you think that eating that many jolly ranchers a day could give you delusions about about the ghosts that you claim you've seen oh so now he's diagnosing him so the whole reason the jolly ranchers even came up was for him to have some little bit about like do you think you're like having like sugar hallucinations right because that is what happens zach as he knows so well i'm sure i literally anyway i i hope that man you know what he responds he had decorum to him that guy because he really could have fed into that bullshit and he was just answering the questions point blank he's like no he's like no delusions authentic self fuckhead he's like i can fucking sue me i like a jolly rancher and i see a ghost every now and then what do you want um so by this point uh he's we're now getting to the ghost and he's saying like oh yeah well i saw all my jolly ranchers in the jar like all moving around as if like a little kid's hand was sifting through the jar and he's like oh yeah well i saw all my that's what he saw uh you know the thing that's obviously a delusional situation according to zach sugar calculator yeah um well so then the guy jokes he's like you know i did not like that that little girl was trying to take candy out of my jar i don't even let my kids share my candy with me and zach ends this bit by going i'm sure this little girl's spirit is just as angry at jeff for not sharing his jolly ranchers as his own children are well can you leave this man alone can you just give it a fucking rest why are you making like we get it you don't like sugar like i'm or children like a 10 a.m leave me alone you know just like leave everybody alone okay so anyway i swear we're almost done but the jolly ranch apparently the jolly rancher scene was the reason people suggest this hilarious like ridiculous things that how many jolly ranchers are you putting down a day answer and honestly i don't know my own answer because i've never thought i've had enough jolly ranchers but i've also just never around them longer really i've never been around jolly ranchers long enough to find my limit i eat one and i'm like a green apple one will last me like an hour i'm like that's a lot well that's saying because i don't bite them i suck on them so like by the time i'm done with that first one i've already left the premises and don't have an option to take more i'm just thinking like even if i take a few i'm like eating one you know it's like it's a lot i mean i again no shame because clearly this is working for this guy but i like i like that you said you are a green fan because that's also my flavor oh i love it but and that is a sour one so maybe that would be different maybe he eats like the purples that are like sweeter you know way too sweet i love the purples too but green is the go-to green's my go-to and i'll take a blue but other than that i don't want them no me neither so zach goes uh oh so this is this is now we're getting into the the last few bits here so we're done with that interview now zach is interviewing the owners and they take him down this really dark back hallway and as they're saying the phrase we just don't like to go in here zach responds with can you go in there typical he's like good then i have the perfect question for you and not just go in there but go in there pitch black so you can't see anything sure so he goes in there uh with one of them they then come out he goes in now with the husband of the two and when they as soon as the guy he's like having the guy walk all the way to the back of the hallway like go as far back as you can in the pitch black and as the guy is saying like our staff won't even go like it really freaks him out as he's saying that mid-sentence zach just fucking leaves and goes and walks away and just leaves that guy in the hallway this is exactly how i imagine anyone being around zach bayans would feel like like did he just walk away from me as i was speaking yes yes it's like for the audio of the show don't you want it to keep it moving so um he then calls the hall a portal i thought it was very funny uh camera play where as the camera is showing you the doorway at the back of the hall zach goes i think it's a doorway it's like i know he meant portal but like it was such a funny play on it's like when he went is this a chicken nugget and we were like are you having an episode he's like i think it's a doorway like okay it sure is your brain's ticking today i'm really happy so then he says he thinks the little girl everyone's been seeing and hearing is not actually a little girl but a protector of this portal and later that night wouldn't you know it zach gets out fully and hives all over his body throughout the show it's all the jolly ranchers the sugar near me is one jolly rancher and was like actually this is gonna kill me so uh throughout the show they sense many very cold cold spots they see something on the sls camera they swear they see a little girl's arm reach around the doorframe but you don't see it on camera for into the right yeah they hear footsteps they hear banging they hear loud whistling the thermal camera suggests someone's next to them uh as aaron is saying that the ghosts clearly want them to leave there actually is a huge crash behind them and things things fly off the shelves yeah when you see a big crash and like they're all in the room and they all freak out i do get a little spooked by that because i'm like what the f that was definitely the spookiest part was just like and as he's saying like they clearly don't want us here and then just huge loud crashing um then zach makes aaron go walk outside the vampire creature sure of course um but when he comes back in it's very interesting aaron does seem to have gone into a weird trance and starts acting kind of weird at the same time if that happens zach gets a huge scream on a spirit box and i'm just going to end on what i think is the most interesting part was that they went into clark gable's room and used a spirit box to try to talk to him and they only got two words they got potosi and miss her and potosi was the name of the mountains that his wife died at so they got potosi and miss her oh my god zach then literally tells the ghost that is maybe clark gable we visited your wife uh we visited your wife's crash site because she died in a plane crash we visited your wife's crash site and then the clip shows footage of the wife's crash site that they were at on their cameras when they were filming for the pioneer saloon which i'll be covering next week see it's so weird what the fuck that's the wolf creek and i'm sorry that that was um so long but i wanted to give you a good one for 500 so wow what a tale wolf creek in man never even heard of it um uh i hadn't either and now i also i love when i end up having uh notes for next week already done so it's perfect already just like lined up that's kind of awesome um fantastic well so we're gonna hop onto a yappy hour now and um we're gonna talk about why we're going to utah this weekend because we have an exciting um person in our lives whom we love to celebrate oh it was an ad we did um oh it was the mug i was gonna get the mug that's fine i'll get it i'll get it another time um but yeah if we have another pee break i'll go get the the zazzle mug but we are going to talk about uh yeah the lovely eva's wedding weekend so uh we're upcoming so we'll hop on yappy hour otherwise we'll see you after the break fall never arrives all at once first the air then the light and slowly the things you love begin to find each other a jacket meets a dress a hoodie slips beneath a blazer an old cap finds a new scarf because you don't simply step into the season you create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall find fall your way at ross uh i got an email from a friend of mine and she said i'm going to go to yappy hour yesterday that was like uncategorized transaction and i was like oh boy this better this this will be good uh and i opened it and i realized like there was this payment i had made anyway it doesn't matter what it was but the point is rocket money has got my back and i was able to like hop in re reconfigure some things and be like oh okay that's where that money was going coming from i wanted it rocket money has saved my butt in countless ways i don't need it's like every time we do one of these i'm like oh yesterday rocket money helped me with something because it's just that regularly beneficial to my life rocket money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings and truly just like christine said there are times where i'm like oh rocket money's done this job now i don't need it anymore and then i subscribe to something else what's wrong like a week later they're like you did it again and i'm like no surely i didn't and i let rocket buddy let rocket buddy help you reach your financial goals faster join at rocket money.com drink that's rocket money.com drink wow christine look at your loss okay you don't even need to fake it because today i did i washed and blow dried my hair well i did actually i didn't blow dry that's a lie but i did wash it because i was like i want to show off like i feel like when i do the ads it's hard to show but like for neutrophil like it really i do take it every day and it has really made my hair so much thicker i mean i'm showing it here on camera um which is something i've never done in the past like look how poofy it is a little mufasa mane i feel like so much more confident in the amount of hair i have and how like full it is every time i wash my hair i'm like i hope we have neutrophil to talk about and it just never allows me to aligns properly but today i wash my hair and i'm here to show it off well neutrophil is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand and it's the number one hair growth supplement brand personally used by dermatologists and christine and now the neutrophil women's formula has been upgraded to its most advanced version yet it's 100 vegan biotin free and comes in a smaller capsule size to make your daily routine easier the smaller capsules makes it a lot easier as well and i've i was like thank you for continuing to improve the product i think that's a really cool really cool thing no prescription needed and it's automated deliveries and you can pause anytime so whether you're just starting your hair health journey or you've been taking neutrophil for years this update means you can now get their most advanced support yet see thicker stronger faster growing hair with less shedding and just three to six months right now neutrophil is offering our listeners ten dollars off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit neutrophil.com and enter promo code drink that's neutrophil.com spelled n-u-t-r-a-f-o-l.com promo code drink all right well he has planted himself firmly in the lap so i guess we're both ready in the limelight of your lap i would i don't think anyone would be able to see him but he's so we're both ready for for a good story that was worthy of a real gasp like that came out of my soul i know that wasn't even i couldn't have stopped if i wanted to he's been doing it a lot lately where he just like really shoves his face into the crotch and then doesn't leave i don't know what's that means behavior wise but he's really into it so i think it's like getting pet you know just like that put your head i think it's like the burrowing the thing is geo's short so he can't reach that but if he's on your on he does that when he's like on couch level like he does the same thing so precious yeah well hankies and i are ready for a good story all right i think you're gonna like this one it took me a few weeks to figure out what i was gonna do um and when i did i just giggled to myself and kicked my feet uh okay oh my god i'm so excited will i know it if like will i guess it or uh here we go this is the topic for you m of old-timey forensics and the ridiculous things people used to do that's incredible analyze crime scenes the stand-up bit from um what's his face you know john mulaney like mop it up or what i knew you'd remember now back to my hunch yeah yeah i always forget it and i you always remember so i didn't even look it up because i knew you would yeah this is this is the very clear and direct guidance i gave sersha and sersha said i'm on it and sent a salute emoji and i i love the way they did this i really do so it's a fun little um it was like a little team effort but also they named it old timey forensics which i loved um because the way i described it was you know that john mulaney bit m loves that i'm not gonna i'm actively not gonna look up you know that whole thing a big puddle of dna yuck mop it up now back to my hunch yeah that's the one so i thought we gotta we gotta look into this and um after i kind of botched a few things uh with trying to be trying to make something work for the show and then like having to completely revert to just like reading out of our own book stuff like that i was like we gotta nail this one down we've really got i'm very excited this is i've wanted this for so long phew here we go the , this is wonderful it's the year 1247 okay do you remember it not well yeah so there is uh this i want to say a treatise or a pamphlet you know how we love an old timey pamphlet okay it's from the fuzhan province of china um and it was which is the present day name um and it was which is the present day name um and it was which is the present day name it was written by song chi and it was called collected cases of injustice rectified which is the english translation um it is also sometimes called the washing away of wrongs and according to the library of congress it is recognized as the world's first ever systematically written book of forensic science hell yeah yeah 1247 no chance that's on ebay huh i know right like maybe maybe would love a copy you'd gotta pull it out of your pocket and you'd have to pull it out of your pocket nicholas cage to get that out of the library of congress for sure um okay so the book contains detailed instructions to perform thorough autopsies how to investigate crime scenes themselves and many like actual specific methods of investigation by detail it also contains the earliest known documentation of forensic entomology which is the use of bugs in criminal investigations so here's an example from this book which mentions um entomology as a method of in 1247 uh here's an example from the book an early murder case appeared to have been committed using a sickle so everyone in the area who had used sickles which was most people um in daily work at that time to harvest rice these folks were summoned to one place and instructed to bring their sickles they were under the hot sun and eventually a significant number of flies swarmed one sickle while ignoring the rest fascinating yes the magistrate concluded that they were drawn to the unseen remnants of blood and other gore that the murderer had not been able to fully clean off of the sickle and he broke down and confessed in front of the other suspects and so yeah 13th century um that's so smart it's like well which one has the grossest number of flies and which one has the least number of flies and which one has the most decaying smell which one do the flies wanted which one has death on it yeah wow that's crazy i would have never honestly if you told me even five minutes ago before i knew about the 1200s being involved in this i didn't think evidence was even an option until fuck way later than the 1200s i thought everyone just gets away with murder until i don't know i don't even know i would have never known the 1200s yeah that's it well okay and you and i will give you some credit because we'll get into remember we're also discussing like the old-timey not effective sure it's so so even though this is 1247 there's a whole lot between then and now that's like not so great not so impressive got it um so but yes that this really is wild uh i was very impressed by this information um and so yes that's just an example from the book um so but yeah it demonstrates that as early as the 13th century investigators in china were observing how insects interacted with like the blood and tissue of a murder victim which is still a science that is used today um but let's just say i love how searcher put this actually probably much better than i did advancements in forensic science have never exactly been linear and i think that's a really great way to put it great way to put it yes um across centuries and countries of course investigators have relied on varied methods many of them varied methods and i think that's a really great way to put it very very very questionable at best uh song she laid out extremely high standards for performing meticulous autopsies emphasizing that mistakes could lead to false convictions and further injustice meanwhile in the 1990s in the u.s in texas dr ralph erdman was botching his autopsies left and right so significantly that hundreds of the autopsies he performed revealed outrageous quote-unquote mistakes uh yeah so you know think of that kind of whiplash from 1247 i guess it's not whiplash because it's a really long ways away but it just goes to show like even how absolutely different practices 1990s yeah yeah yeah yeah i mean i have nothing to say that's just crazy well i do want to tell you a little bit about the botched autopsies because they are just something um hundreds of autopsies revealed mistakes like making a statement about weighing a dead man's spleen during an autopsy only for it to be later confirmed that the man's spleen had been surgically removed years before his death oh so what had ralph weighed like would it be worse if he just made it up completely or if he was so bad at anatomy that he like weighed the wrong organ and called it a spleen you know what i mean oh ralph like it brings oh ralph it brings to mind so many questions like is it better or worse that he's just bad at it or that he's lying you know what i mean like it's just all shady and weird or did he really think it was or like exactly is he just dumb or is he lying and um it really makes you wonder and then the fact that like what else did he fuck up apparently a lot apparently a lot of things in another case for example he somehow misplaced the head of the victim the head how do you miss that how do you does that just chef boyardee roll down the stairs and he's like oh my god i'm gonna die and that's how you lose it because there's no other way you can lose a head that's really the only explanation because wouldn't you know it the head was suspected to contain a bullet which was the cause of death and the head was never located he just lost it so prime evidence and we just where do you run to the bathroom and you leave it on the counter by accident truly where does it fucking go maybe he thought it was a spleen and he put it back to you know what i mean like i'm like i don't know with this fucking guy that's crazy like i could understand as someone who doesn't know which organs are which um i can understand mixing up a spleen with like a liver or something i cannot a spleen or in a head anything in a head or like just losing a head how do you fucking i can't imagine holding a head that's not attached to a body and then just not knowing where it is only an example of hundreds of things that you've done so egregiously wrong you know that have like caused serious damage to all these cases it's really upsetting does it really bother you that you're a dummy of forensics or something i don't know because that's a good one if they don't have one for him yet he absolutely there he should be notorious for being the person you you cannot be worse than he must be because this is clearly the example that was given you know as the perfect counter to song she's beautiful treatise on on how to do a proper autopsy we were just saying in a previous episode how like you know the art of using a name to suggest that you really fucked something up like you really ralphed it like that's it is good it sounds good yeah it sounds good um yeah so so you've got song chi here laying out how to do like this autopsy properly in 1247 now ralph is losing people's heads in the 90s um so ups and downs all over the place uh now let's get into crime scene handling which is kind of where this all began right with the um with the john mulaney and all that so for a long time i would like to do that yeah here we go there was no widely accepted official procedures as we've kind of gathered um i always think of valiska axe murder house and those kind of things uh yeah because it really is like almost absurd the amount of what like the amount of just how wrong everything was treated as like a crime scene as far as crime scenes go and how are they just picking things up and putting them down and just like i'll tell y'all about it um so thank you so much for asking apparently how well or on the other side of the coin badly a crime scene was secured was just up to chance completely um we covered a case it was a case of edward wheeler hall and eleanor reinhardt mills they were murdered in new jersey in 1922 and their bodies were discovered beneath a crab apple tree at the border of two counties and then different police forces disagreed over whose jurisdiction the scene fell under and while they were having this disagreement, the crowd that had gathered just started walking around as these bodies were laying there like picking up the victims belongings passing them around going through their purses like their purse and touching everything and the police are arguing about whose jurisdiction it is um they took eleanor's scarf and hat they even started peeling bark and breaking branches off crap the crab apple tree for souvenirs you know of the crime scene crazy yeah the scene was completely compromised but uh it wasn't even just the fact that like civilians got their hands on literally their hands on everything it was also the fact that investigators didn't even like bother getting evidence themselves so it was like they weren't really worried about that i guess it like wasn't like the john mulaney bit like they literally didn't think about it and i wonder like they i feel like it's one thing to like not know that dna dna is something that you can collect for evidence but everybody had to know that like we should keep this we should keep everything as is so we can figure out the story scarf on the body of the dead woman so we can see if it had anything to you know what i mean like that part just like because it's one thing to be ignorant to something but it's another thing to just feel like really knowingly insensitive about it like if i feel like at no at any point in time like if i were to time travel back to the 1500s and i saw a death i feel like i would know like let's maybe i wouldn't know the phrase secure the area but i'd be like let's take a look and see if we can figure it out you'd think but then i think there's also a power to like one person went to look so like i followed and then like the police don't care so i guess we can look and like someone just handed me something what am i holding i don't know it's like i can see where you'd get kind of mixed up in this i like to think i would not but what the fuck do i know um do you know what year ish or what era they start securing crime scenes to be able to like just study it so that was like a sherlock holmes 22 i don't know we should look up like when caution tape started well i don't know if that would be when people just start saying don't steal that yeah i don't know that there was necessarily a year because it was also like every jurisdiction every town everything was like kind of different you know it was sort of like by the luck of where you were or like see here this jurisdiction issue caused this whole delay and now people are like peeling off bark of the tree i mean it's just insane um so the scene was completely compromised they didn't even photograph the bodies even though the police had that technology it was sort of just like well that was weird and then like moved on you know it's insane yeah it is it is it is um crime scene crime scenes were often trampled by onlookers by family members right you have to remember like you know if you think about it like you often see in scenes of of fictionalized crime like the family trying to get to the body of their loved one and having to be held back and it's like there was a time where they wouldn't hold you back right so i guess then i could at least i can understand that compromising absolutely and jumping in absolutely i think most people probably would do this whether or not you even realize what you're doing it's just human nature um it's probably instinct but so yeah so family members onlookers investigators would be disregarding the crime scene um in a time before evidence like dna like you mentioned or even fingerprints could be analyzed of course no one could be expected to avoid like compromising that kind of evidence because we wouldn't have known about it like you said but like you said you didn't need to like fucking trample and like disrupt the entire scene and like let people just show up and take the clothes off of the people i mean that's a little like and like a rational mind but i guess when this power of numbers and the police are not saying anything what are you gonna do like walk away also like if somebody emotionally just like ran to the scene and already disturbed everything then it's almost like well it's already been damaged so we're not gonna like pull her away or whatever i yeah i don't know but like oh yeah yeah it's yeah that's hard so not only that but the media was often also allowed into scenes and like i remember this with the pearl brian case where like journalists were getting up close to the body and like you know it's just like yeah that and so we're onlookers that was also a very similar situation um but yeah the media was allowed to like walk around look at things take pictures um and then that means they were allowed to like touch things move things you know and it's like i don't like that um for example at this time this was like not an unheard of thing to happen if like say your neighbor was murdered um neighbors would just walk in the front door and like poke around crazy and just like see during the investigation well i feel like that that happened maybe during lizzie borden i feel like yeah i was just thinking that of that example yeah i think that's right i think that did happen everyone was just going in and looking around and like talk about like how she would have not been able to get away with that today with like just blood spatter everywhere like it it's it anyway yeah i feel it to this day sorry to this day that location is like not properly preserved like they are not in my opinion respectfully taken care of and like they just let people like take pictures on the couch where the dad died and like pose with like a fake axe and shit and then they don't love that they tried to turn it into an axe throwing station yes i'm like what is wrong with these people like i mean i say as someone who has paid money to go visit that house but you know it's um but yeah you do see like okay i feel like from the beginning it was from the very start of all this it's just never it was like made for looky loose a little bit yeah no i totally agree and like it's hard because like yeah we are kind of looky loose in a lot of ways because it's just a human nature but be also like our nature like we are curious and nosy and like you know love a story and what but but this kind of shit let's be real like this is out of hand like being being wandering into your neighbor's house and looking around a crime scene is is a is a wild choice to me a big no no should be a no from any any decade if you ask me but anyway all right so um of course we still to this very day discuss the issue of bad crime scene forensic etiquette right like we're still having that running into that issue in a lot of cases um but now at least there are like widely accepted standards for comparison so it's more likely that someone who's careless will be called out but like when you said what when was it kind of standardized like it's still not necessarily something that everyone follows like to protocol you know what i mean like there are protocols but like not everyone in charge follows scientifically backed standards and there are still issues with this kind of thing that happened issues with miscommunication whatever anyway we're gonna now move into some actual uh methods that were used so the first one i have is kind of a surprising one that i didn't realize was so um controversial which is bullet comparison oh interesting okay i thought you were gonna say like um like well oh bullet like uh yeah no no not that um i know what you mean but matching bullets to specific guns because this has been like long considered a reliable forensic technique in murder trials and has definitely been used in several cases i've covered and the idea is that a bullet or casing will not be used to kill a person but it will be used to kill a person so if a bullet or casing is used to kill a person then that bullet or casing will have unique marks from being fired from its weapon so when investigators discover bullets or casings at a crime scene they can find the matching exact weapon and prove the owner fired that weapon at the crime scene like by fingerprints what have you makes sense to me yep the issue is that it's not actually quite as reliable as advertised oh i know and apparently bias makes it worse a recent study by iowa state university found that ballistics experts enthusiastically report when they've confirmed a match for a bullet or casing it's not as reliable as advertised oh i know and apparently bias makes it worse a recent study by iowa state university found that ballistics experts enthusiastically report when they've confirmed a match for the prosecution but often avoid reporting a mismatch that would support the defense instead they tend to label mismatches as quote inconclusive which deliberately implies it might be a match even when it clearly isn't so that is not great it is shady um but on top of that the state of bullet slash casing analysis used to be even worse because before this guy named philip o gravel invented a comparison microscope where you could look at two things at once what you'd have to do is put the bullet under the microscope look at it try to remember it like a freaking highlights puzzle and then move it and put the other one and go okay i think it looks the same and then switch it back fucking crazy i know and even if you had two microscopes you would still be going from one to the other to the one and going and there was no way to look at both simultaneously closely enough to really get a good look at a picture of either so you can look at them right next to each other analyze them no they were just kind of like playing a highlights game and people's lives were at full stake i i'm in a high leon and i are in highlights zone right now so i see top of mind you know um she just started reading the other day what sorry she just started reading in front of me the other day what reading books yeah she just knows words now oh my god she just went bluey and bingo went downstairs and i looked at her and i was like did i miss something and she goes i guess i can read now and i was like what the f and i texted everyone in my family and they were like no we have no idea so it just happened it just literally turned on like two days ago i was just sitting there and she just was like and she goes wow and now she's just like i want to read things and i mean she's still like very much learning but it was like yeah but once you start wow clicked she was like oh i get it like and you know anyway it was really crazy but oh my gosh well hey congratulations to leona damn i was like how has nobody told me this update like did she even know did she realize at the same time were you both just blown away going oh my god so i thought surely like she had known already that she could do this even though she said no but then the next like oh wow i can read i guess the next day i'm telling um the next morning i'm like oh my god blaze listen to this like this is a she just started reading i have a video and um and i'm telling blaze and she overhears me and she goes yeah it was so strange i guess i just learned how to read suddenly and blaze was like oh okay girl first i'm hearing of this so anyway it was just really bizarre but wow so you really watched you watched her gain like sentience that's crazy it was really it was very rewarding i was like hell yeah hell yeah brother all right oh she was so empowered after that now all she wants to do is read and i'm like i've never been so proud of my life um precious it takes fucking forever but did it what isn't this like about the age that she's supposed to know how to read or is this yeah yeah yeah i think it's like normal it's not like abnormal but i think it was the way that it just sort of i mean to witness the moment is crazy and it was her fifth day of school and i was like did it happen wow did something just like some friend taught her the hack just want to know what you gotta do like i'm not like training her to read you know what i mean like i know they're learning their alphabet and we read books but we're not like doing some program or something you know what i mean like i'm just like she'll learn when she learns well apparently she just decided one day so oh my god but it took my sister a really long time to learn to read because she was so stubborn and said i won't learn to read because i want you to read to me and if i learn to read out i will so she just discovered yeah and so but now she's an avid reader so it doesn't say anything about what time you learn to read or whatever but it was just like such a shocking update and i was like wow what's happening um anyway fun fact so hang on hang on let this let me do something crazy i don't know what this is what but i i went to i got the milkshake out yeah is that a fucking leg is that a bug leg what is that sticking out m m m what is that and put that down so anyway i'm i need a napkin to grab it and pull no don't pull no take the lid off first no because what if it's alive oh it just fell right off well i know nothing no m don't take the leg off to put the lid off so you can see what the legs attached to worst thing in the world is this one happens to be oreo so i'll never know what the clump are if they're yes you will it's a bug open it that was a bug leg i need to be honest with you that was a bug leg right yes it was a bug leg please open the lid it's not alive i promise i'm gonna scream i've just touched it with my bare hands beforehand i told you to open the lid not pull on the leg i'm gonna scream i i'll never know you will i'll never know scoop it out oh with what i have nothing here boom don't even don't you're not gonna drink it are you no i'm not no i'm not that was a bug leg right okay i'm glad we all thought okay so hmm so i'm having one milkshake today hope that's okay that's hilarious that literally was so just i was i thought so many times like i gotta put a straw in that thing and then i was like that looks like a lick that i'm distressed about that that was not i'll go digging after the after all this okay can you send like no don't send me a picture can you tell me if it was a bug well yeah because i just know that was that was really disgusting i like literally i that's why i was you kept telling me about leona reading and i like did not want to lose that moment doing something and i was like if i had known it was so urgent i would have shut up but i mean no no no i just i didn't want to i didn't want to take that moment from like that's such a big announcement but i um but i was like i'm pretty sure that's also like a fucking spider roach like no that's also an emergency so it really was like if it was alive it would have been an emergency if it was moving around certainly i wouldn't have let you give that one up no um wow okay so that's shocking i don't even know where we were here but uh basically oh they were trying to do the back and forth oh highlights that's why because i was saying like we're really into highlights magazine right now and this is part of the reason right she's but she loves like the silly pictures and like find the different spot the difference that's what this is with these microscopes looking at bullet casing like yeah totally with people's find the difference live like like their entire futures um so yeah they would like just try to go back and forth back and forth back and forth and be like yeah i think it looks the same that was about it um yeah and then you could get an innocent person convicted or killed oops if you mess up so no big deal yeah i don't think highlights is quite as high stakes but what do i know that would have been you know back in the day though maybe that was part of their training it's like okay get a highlights magazine you gotta practice 10 differences in this picture go for it like look at two barcodes you know and be like what's the difference you know what i mean like what are the lines like how on earth are you supposed to trust that you're doing this right or that you're like not this fucking guy what's his name he ralphed it and like put the head somewhere it's you can't do that no um so let's get into hair analysis which i did know was a very controversial subject um or not controversial subject the controversial method of um forensic so dna was not used as evidence in the u.s court system until 1986 so rather recently and until then hair analysis was a very popular forensic technique experts so-called experts would use microscopic with these fucking microscopes analysis to compare the hair of suspects to hair they discovered at the crime scene if they believed the hair samples were a match they would testify during trials that this was evidence of the defendant's guilt and this was accepted at the highest levels the fbi presented microscopic hair analysis as evidence in as many as 3 000 cases um but when the advent of dna evidence as a tool came around um it was determined that you cannot actually prove that hair came from a person's body just by looking at it because you could look at it and then do a dna test and they'd be completely different people crazy could it also do like versus people because what if there was like a dog or a cat in the area and now it's i mean i color i believe you mean wait you mean like animal to animal or no i was gonna say like human is animal to human also like a risk factor probably they were more likely to be able to determine if it was like cat or dog hair but i i mean i don't know i don't know um so let's see hair analysis has basically gone the way of a similarly um debunked form of forensic analysis which is bite mark analysis oh i thought you were gonna say blood spatter yes very interesting but we're going bite marks first which has also been ruled pretty much useless in identifying attackers in a 2015 statement the fbi admitted that quote microscopic hair analysis contained errors in at least 90 percent of cases 90 percent not at least isn't that how ted bundy ended up getting caught though hair analysis oh bite marks well no a bite on someone's butt or something oh i'm not sure i think there was a bite that was part of the evidence but i don't think it was like the thing that got him got it got it um i can't i could be wrong with that i don't know but that one was right and so right um and 26 is another quote 26 of 28 fbi agents slash analysts provided either testimony with erroneous statements or statements so bite mark analysis had already been debunked like long before the hair stuff had been was debunked and so that kind of went the same way of like oh wow we didn't realize how completely erroneous this was um the fact that more than 90 of the time it was incorrect is a shocking a shocking number errors in at least 90 of cases and then 26 out of 28 analysts giving erroneous statements is also a shocking number wow according to the innocence project 329 wrongful convictions at the time had been overturned using dna evidence to debunk the hair analysis and 74 of the convictions involved faulty hair evidence literally just looking at hair and going yep it matches their hair insane so here's a good way that sersha put it to like put in perspective if you think about it this way humans are mammals right most of us grow some type of hair somewhere on our bodies there are billions of us so the hair on our bodies will inevitably look like the hair of other people's um and so like imagine as an example trying to claim that a piece like a strand of fur from one cat a gray cat or something belonged to that gray cat not the other gray cat down the road it's a similar idea like brunettes or blondes like oh it's the same color exactly that doesn't really pieces of hair per person and there's eight billion people right you're just gonna zillionth yeah lost lost um and yeah and just by looking at it like nothing more you know so it's just there's just no way so now we're gonna go way more old school again we're gonna go trial by dog combat oh yeah yeah a 14th century legend tells the story of aubrey de montdidier a member of king charles v's court it goes that around 1371 he was murdered in the forest of bondi by robert mccare the only witness was aubrey's dog who chased robert until he was captured wow king charles ordered that robert fight a duel for his life against the dog oh robert was armed with a stick the dog won the duel good boy robert confessed and was hanged for the crime so we don't know exactly how accurate these details are but the dog basically well the point is the dog winning was evidence that the dog knew that the man killed its owner it feels a lot like well if a witch floats or if a person oh interesting that you say that because about three bullet points later that's the exact thing but yes precisely it's like well if a woman floats then she's a way or if the yeah whatever the we'll get to it but yeah it's like lose it just feels like okay i mean i don't know maybe he did kill the dog but it's like well he killed the guy i guess but like the fact that the dog i don't know it just feels bizarre that you'd a involve the dog in a duel at all and then be like the dog dude damn he all he did was like show you help by getting the guy well we don't but that's the thing is like how do we know that all right i'm gonna be the guy yeah you're right the guy down so then they're like well the dog was really mad at you so clearly he's testifying against you like that was the logic right like and also i would mention of the rules of a dog duel like how do it's like if this guy was able to get up and confess to this later he clearly didn't die so they're like what are the dog won the duel right exactly so maybe this will be my next episode dog duels yeah just actually that'll probably be so dark i don't want to go there um yeah but so now i'm so glad that you said that so let's go there are a few more things here how exactly accurate these details are as iffy but um the fact that they used a dog's testimony is like not even that weird when you think of like the other historically techniques um before we get to the witch floating there's another thing we've discussed on this podcast which is episode 305 we covered the greenbrier ghost which is a 19th century case in which remember that guy trout um he was sentenced to life in prison for murdering his wife after his mother-in-law the woman's mother claimed she was visited by her daughter's ghost who revealed the details of how she had been murdered and one report of the case claimed that when trout the murderer tried to wash some sheets after the crime that they turned red with blood and this indicated that he was guilty and interestingly the idea that blood reacts to the presence of the victim's murderer is like a pretty common thing through history really oh like got like some sort of like bond all of a sudden some like supernatural link yes yeah a hundred percent it's called cruination okay many cultures have ancient variations of the trial by ordeal and a trial by ordeal first of all what a nightmare i want nothing to do with this um whatever the an ordeal to begin with is enough i don't want it i don't want and now i'm on trial on top of this ordeal fuck that forget it via the ordeal yeah it's all it's all gonna be bad for me i think we know so they're different by culture and era but generally the principle is that an accused person must be put to some type of physical test to prove that they are innocent god help me okay right yeah a popular example in western media comes from the uk and colonial america and this podcast which is submerging an accused witch in water to see whether they would float a guilty witch would float whereas an innocent person would sink so no matter what you're done either you are either you're no longer with us all right either you're innocent and we drowned an innocent person or you float and uh which also like if you're if you're not tied to a weight or anything to save yourself from drowning you would swim up and float so now no matter what you're all supposed to be guilty but i think so they would like tie your arms and stuff too i think it was like oh so we're just killing people okay cool well yeah but i think also like even whether you are bound or not you're right like if you tread water right if you can't swim you're screwed if you can swim and you're not bound by yeah anything you're a witch and we'll kill you later yeah um and so it says here though like the idea was that you would be rescued if you were innocent before you drowned but like you know the witch trials aren't like notorious for being fair they're notorious kind or helpful or life-saving efficient or life-saving yeah um as early as the 12th century people in parts of europe were subjected to a type of trial by ordeal no known as cruination now cruination comes from the latin word crew and crew and tatus which means to make bloody okay this ordeal was also known as the trial of the beer now beer is spelled b-i-e-r which is the german spelling of the beverage but it was also apparently a type of cart used to transport human corpses so i'm picturing like bring out your dead you know and like the cart from monty python is sort of what i'm picturing so interesting that that word would mean two very and that's why we drink things you know i hadn't even put that together and yeah well so that is it was it called like a beer cart or like was it just one of those things where like two words mean the same thing or you know one word means two things i'm not entirely sure because it just says the trial of the beer um so i'm not a hundred percent sure maybe it'll come in one of these quotes but essentially what happened is the trial by ordeal forced a suspected murderer to confront the remains of a murder victim and the belief was that the body of a victim would react physically to the presence of its killer usually the body would ooze blood either from the mouth or from the wounds like where they were stabbed for example and the body might also froth at the mouth at its murderer's approach this was the idea anyway yeah how ideal that would work real if only that was how as simple as it was i know right and it's like yeah i guess if i guess bodies do react strangely you know post-mortem and there wouldn't have been explanations but like yeah this is a pretty wild one to me that that really would have been like back in the day when they thought that's how things got solved they must have thought they found just the foolproof like oh just how easy is it to just lock people away now i mean the king literally king james the first wrote about it and be was like this is it like this is modern stuff and like i get it i mean i get the hype of like it feels like supernatural but like i don't know a lot of things probably felt supernatural that were actual science so it's like i can't necessarily blame them for like is it it's neil degrasse tyson i think who has that theory where it's like the more science we have the less god there is because it's like the more things are able to be explained the less you need to like just have faith in something oh that's deep i have no clue yeah i think that's it's like well they thought the sky was blue because the gods blah blah blah and it's like actually now we have a the gods story but right right right right right so anyway i i mean yeah i could imagine in a world where like you said there was less science like you just have to assume that it's just beyond our realm of we just have to believe and or it could be yeah and if a body is reacting a certain way it's like well yeah to say it doesn't mean something you know i would believe in it if i i would absolutely have fallen for it totally um so king james as i said the first of england believed in this forensic mechanism in 1597 he wrote in a secret murder if the dead carcass be at any time thereafter handled by the murderer it will gush out of blood as if the blood were crying out to the heaven for revenge of the murderer god having appointed that secret supernatural sign oh a secret supernatural you gotta see how he wrote this shit it's not anything there's a why there's it's just nuts it's just nutty is what it is he tells it murtherer murtherer the murtherer we are gathered here today what's the um uh yeah yeah uh love it's the princess bride right yes yeah oh i why am i like mawage mawage yeah that's it mawage okay thank you uh but a bit of a so in addition to this sort of blood gushing phenomenon sometimes the accused had to call out to the victim by name as part of this beer right like they would have to like say the victim's name um or even touch the victim with their hand called ordeal by touch a lot of ordeals going on i don't like a single one of them you know it was too many ordeals when the first one was introduced yeah the ordeal itself is actually just a combination of all ordeals involved it's actually enough all of it's enough for me i think it was enough from the moment it began um the beer right had other issues in 1660 maryland thomas merteen stood trial for the murder of catherine lake a woman who worked at tom as thomas's servant three other servants testified that thomas beat catherine and catherine had indeed been beaten to death so the servants were like hey ding ding ding that's your guy he's an abusive person and he has beaten her in the past and now she is dead and has been beaten to death but her body didn't react when thomas was present okay her dead body right of course and it's a trial of the beer and so he was acquitted for this wow yep you know like he's just sitting there fucking shaken hoping hoping that nothing happens i don't know that he was that worried because oh catherine they were like nope he didn't do it catherine was ruled to have died of fits of the mother which was another way to say female hysteria she's a girl yeah um in her thesis on the topic margaret ingram wrote that speaking bodies which is like the term for when the body is supposed to be reacting to you know a living environment speaking bodies were usually only believed or heard um if they were the bodies of men wouldn't you know it especially in fucking 17th century um women were considered you know just unreliable victims even back then even after they were dead which is a wild sentient property which is a wild thing to say like they can't even be dead correctly you know it's like right of course why not yeah um now large-scale crew nation was also sometimes done um where like an entire neighborhood who knew the victim might have to go around like touching the body of a woman who was the body to determine if and if something if blood happened they'd be like you did it which is terrifying because if you didn't it's like what the hell um while there were always doubters who were like there's no way this is real um and they were against it as a forensic technique it was actually used into the late 19th century so late 1800s and um for now that's all i've got for you today because i didn't want to go way too overboard but yeah happy 500 i just thought we had to get into it no i'm i'm sorry that mine was so long then i i just um man that was a good one that was a good that was a good call on a topic back to my hunch is exactly it that's that sums up the entire thing 100 i and i i love that john mulaney but i it's so funny very good yeah yeah oh my gosh well okay so what was out of all that what was your favorite thing that you learned um i had to be honest like from the from the top the flies was really cool yeah i was gonna say the fact that in 1200 we were like already like getting some really hot info that actually was true um and then 1990s texas really just being kind of the bare dichotomy of that was really powerful yeah totally and fucking ralph i'll think about him for the rest of my life i'm anytime i ralph it you know and i'm not surprised but it just goes to show that throughout the years like there's always been some real stinkers working in the medical field where like someone should have been checking their work or they should have not gotten a certificate however they got there it needs to not happen with a lot of responsibility was maybe not vetted properly yeah and i i truly wonder did he think he deserved to be there or it was was every day was he just praying that he didn't maybe that's my next rep this guy yeah he seems like someone that um yeah i don't know he really throws me because i would love to get a drink with him and hate him the whole time but ask a lot of questions i'm maybe i'll do that next i'll look him up if i remember i can't promise he's got to have a name he's got to have a name i didn't i gave you his name i gave you his name no no he's gotta have like a nickname of like the blank of medicine or something yeah we'll come up with it um hopefully if i remember um but i do have to pee so i'm gonna um okay run away now but i will do the final 500 happy 500 we've done it and millennium that's why we drink fall never arrives all at once first the air then the light and slowly the things you love begin to find each other a jacket meets a dress a hoodie slips beneath a blazer an old cap finds a dress a jacket meets a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and a blazer and don't simply step into the season you create it layer by layer until it finally feels like fall find fall your way at ross hank joined bj's wholesale club the day he became a father of 30 i coach football now coach hank saves up to 25 off grocery store prices 30 pounds of pasta three cases of protein bars 75 sports drinks and that's just pre-game he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings he knows teamwork and bj's knows savings this is your home coach home of the save join for just 20 at bjs.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save i'm not giving up i am selling the building the final season of fx is the bear the restaurant is flooded everything's either gonna be okay or not we are outgunned and we are outmanned but we have each other fx is the bear the final season all episodes now streaming on disney plus