E488 The Esophagus Woes and a Hatchet Granny

I want to date with Rawls, Carty says. Rawls? Rocker asks. This is the love story of real hinge couple Carty and Rocker. Written and read by me, Nicola Dynan. Listen to the free audiobook now. Endless summer escapes start here. Travel the worlds of Netflix IRL. Inspired by fan favorites like Stranger Things and Squid Game. Brave the upside down. Face off with the front man. Play leveled up arcade games. Shop exclusive merch. And enjoy themed food and drinks. Beat the heat. Play, eat, and shop on repeat at Netflix House at Galleria Dallas. Bring your crew and save. Get your tickets today at Netflix.com slash house. So I've recently been making some adjustments to my medications underneath the supervision of a professional, medical professional. But I will say that I've noticed some more of my OCD tendencies kind of rearing their heads. But I do feel much more equipped now to handle them because of NoCD and because of our longstanding special friendship, as I call it. I just love the app. I love NoCD. I just love that there are other people who like get me now and it feels like I'm not alone in the world. I just love it. Okay. So that's all I'm going to say. I'm going to stop talking now. Well, not every therapist understands OCD or is qualified to treat it effectively, which can make it difficult to find the right help. But when you find the right help, like Christine, then you have a very special friendship. Yes. And OCD is highly treated. It's suitable with a specialized type of therapy called ERP or exposure and response prevention. And with NoCD, you can do live virtual ERP therapy with licensed therapists who specialize in OCD. NoCD therapists are highly trained. So they really understand OCD and won't judge you no matter what your thoughts are about. NoCD therapy is covered by insurance for over 155 million Americans. So unfortunately for you, Christine, you're not their only special friend. Do you know what I'm saying? I do. I want to be, I want this to be the more the merrier, the most open relationship we can all have because OCD deserves to be talked about people. Okay. Don't hide. If you think you or someone, you know, might be struggling with OCD, please don't wait to get help. Go to NoCD.com and book a free call with their team to learn more. That's NoCD.com to schedule a free call and learn more. Did you ever have a class where you had to, cause I know we both went to very, oh, hi. Did you ever go to class in eighth grade? In eighth grade where you had to learn about music theory, but really it was just this man who had a piano and he would play like, like, um, I'm seeing my sweetheart at the train tracks, you know, that kind of music. I had like, I had that exact man in my class. Really? Cause mine was named Brut. Oh, I thought, I thought we were really on the same page. I didn't have the hello, my honey. Hello, my darling. That was the one. So I actually, I actually, I actually faked a sinus infection to quit band. I didn't have the, I actually, I actually, I actually faked a sinus infection to quit band. Okay. I didn't have the, I actually, I actually faked a sinus infection to quit band. drifting cowboys, which hang on a second. That sounds like something you would absolutely pay attention to. Maybe Bruce clutching your pearls was onto something. Maybe I faked that sinus infection and quit trumpet class for a reason. And I'm only now finding my new, a new love. Maybe this is, it's meant to be recycled. Look at that fucking hat. What am I supposed to do? Say no. I don't know what I would do. I just don't know. i need help okay did you ever do a public speaking class i did what was your speech i built i literally dissociated the entire year what did you do we had it was in college it was like a gen ed random class i and i remember a random girl from my high school was also in that class and she was mean to me in high school and then i saw her in college and i thought oh maybe things have changed no she was still not very nice um wow but uh they made us do three different speeches one of them was like a one minute one like a three minute one and then a five minute one for you like practice like length i guess um one of them i did um how to play beer pong and then as a non-drinking person which is amazing because you really i know the rules better than anyone perspective you're like the referee who's like i'm not playing the game i'm like observing the game yeah i know exactly how this fucking fantastic fantastic another one was i worked at chipotle so i think i just told everyone exactly how to make the corn i mean that has to be an a i maybe maybe to people who really like the corn there but the teacher did not seem impressed that i was giving him factory secrets that's what i mean m is like the teachers are like no that's not appreciation i'm like i fucking hate john mayer sorry that's my appreciation for today but it's not good enough and you know what not liking all musicians is appreciation thank you can you because if you said i like all of them you don't give a that's fucking insane you have no ounce of critical analysis for yourself even if it's wrong compared to everybody else your friend no one's your fucking friend damn not even hank williams and you know what or hank green and you would say that in front of john mayer i bet it's like it's don't take it personally john it's just there has to be someone i like and there has to be someone i don't like and unfortunately you fell into the other category you skeeve me out what are you doing i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not what am i going to do about it sorry about it sorry about it is that why you drink do you drink what do you you don't drink what do you drink help i'm drinking a morning jolt okay well you've heard about these before does it seem that i need that i did take my adhd medication it doesn't seem like it but i did and i did take coffee that okay excellent remember last time when you perfectly matched that cup and straw that was crazy i walked upstairs with the bag and i thought something happened with the straw and i don't remember and maybe if i pull the straw out today i'll remember and i pulled out a blue straw and i went i have absolutely no fucking clue but so thank you for reminding me thank you you were oddly in sync oh my npr shirt oh fuck you're right i gotta get that back cut off yeah my gay shirt well this is pretty gay too i mean yeah i don't know if i'm wearing a shirt that makes it a gay shirt right so you're right you're right you're right and that's really beautiful perspective i think that's why i got a g i think he was just homophobic i think he smelled it on you and he went that's not right that's something's up gigantic what now every way that i was gonna finish that sentence was not gonna sound good like it doesn't mean like inappropriate necessarily but just you know i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna be able to do that i'm not gonna be able to on any level that i was thinking of ending that sentence nothing and nothing landed in a very correct way you certainly locked me in with curiosity i was like how could it go i locked you in and then i left and i said i can't fill in fill in the blanket i think if you had the ability to have just walked out of the room when you've you would have just done that he had a huge uh he one time broke the piano um he jumped on top of it he didn't he was a he okay me uh my higher self came back and said what the fuck is going on in here christine get it together and she says bruce was a fine man and you had some serious issues at home and that's not his fault and you know what it's okay you quit trumpet class and now you know about the drifting cowboys and they can sing hey good looking to you any time of day day or night and without looking what year did they start singing that 1951 yep good job is that right that's right see bruce yeah and now we appreciate them a lot more than he ever could have taught us that's exactly right i uh what you drinking just kind of this and that like i um i have a drink but it's a little old i should have drank yesterday i did i did hear the sound of the water of the liquid of the of the water down the slurping of me trying to get through like the layer that was i gotta be honest now i'm getting some heartburn situations happening over here so like i don't really know this is my favorite drink you know it's it's interesting you lean back as you had the heartburn and i saw almost what appeared to be smoke rings on your shirt and i was already about to compliment the shirt what's happening here it's a little tugboat it's a little tugboat yeah but it's it's actually it is high it's well i thought it was going to be a hookah situation like the caterpillar but now i'm seeing it's more tugboat yeah okay high tide oh i'm into that high to that tug it was when we were in new hampshire last yes i got the shirt i don't understand the reference maybe the store was just called high tide but the the tide i really spoke to me and i was like i mean the colors are yeah really good really good i was like and then i i gotta be honest i didn't even know i didn't really look at the design until i got home and i was like oh it's a stoned boat i was like and honestly yes correct that's perfect anyway i know this part up here is really getting me going even the rings like the little smoke rings i'm like oh that's kind of intriguing yeah because it's like inverted tie-dye on the tie or something yeah but i'm sorry that to hear that it's illustrating your acid reflux yeah i'm not today is just like a an interesting day with my um my esophagus so yeah you know some days it just wants to act up she's she's got a mind of her own that's you know whatever um i why do i drink this week oh allison threw her back out and like this is the big one this was the big one shut up um and so i've been there and it fucking blows oh no remember i did it in front of you that's when i threw my back out the worst that was when i literally sprained my spine i will and i was like i can't help you like i went and opened the car door but i was like you're literally like i don't even know if we were like if we knew each other that well yet i feel like it was really early on we we were doing the podcast but i had just moved so we were like a year into the podcast i guess because i remember feeling like embarrassed that i was like lying on your couch i was having a party and so like you came over and like immediately injured yourself and laid down and we were like we'll stay there and you were like i'm actually in need of medical intervention i had never felt pain like that in my life and it was because i bent down to give a dog a treat that was yeah yeah i'm sure there's an episode where we did this endlessly but i would love to go back and listen because i'm sure we i'm sure i described it in riveting drunk detail at the time well it was it was so out of control i was like i've never i hope to never feel back pain like this again and allison's currently going through that um it debilitates you i mean obviously like being so i don't really get to make this the reason why i drink it's more the reason why allison would drink but the reason i drink is because i've been picking up a lot of extra slack it's just been a lot of like up and down and grabbing things and so i i'm just a little extra sleepy because like i've been having to get up earlier like hank had a vet appointment yesterday so i had to wake up at like 8 a.m just to go bring him there but then i thought oh i'll come back and i'll relax a little bit it was yesterday every single hour i had a thing i had to be at or i had to be like oh i'm gonna go to the bathroom and i'm gonna go to the bathroom oh god my nightmare i was just running around a lot um it's like i i wasn't really doing i like i wasn't i don't know it just felt like a lot to me based on what i had prepared for the day and then i realized i'm gonna have to like really like double up today and you're like running on empty yeah yeah i was just yeah so anyway it's just like a silly little thing that i was it was just a long day yesterday and then i didn't get to go to sleep uh as early as i get that man last night leona woke up with some weird we think she has like a it was like one in the morning and blaze and i were like both like jolted awake she's like does this coughing like this whooping cough sound but it's not like whooping cough because she's like four now and it'll happen when she gets stressed and then her vocal cords will like kind of close up and so she'll start freaking out and it'll like make it worse but it's like this wheezing and she has trouble getting a breath so it sounds kind of like asthma um anyway so that happened last night and then i said i don't know we're gonna take her to the doctor and see what it is but it seems to be almost more of like an irritation when she coughs or gets dry a dry throat and which i don't know i don't know much about asthma to be honest with you but blaze thinks it's something with the vocal cords but yeah so i slept in a chair in her room last night but the chair does go back really far and it's super cozy so i'm not complaining and i had my no i mean not an ad but they are a sponsor my lola blanket that i keep in there for those purposes so i slept in my lola blanket and actually quite well considering um but yeah i'm sorry about al's back um uh fun fact i did get my reiki level two certified yesterday so i'm allowed to thank you i'm allowed to like fully practice now on on others so if she ever wants some distance healing yeah that would actually i couldn't have gotten a better perfect timing all of a sudden everyone's falling apart i'm like i'm ready speaking of leona did you hear that there's another leona in my life now i saw the post and i went well i better hear about this news because i've never seen a cuter baby in my whole life not even leona number one i know i mean really that's the cutest little baby I ever did see um yeah so another reason why we drink this week uh is because RJ is a daddy now mazel tov RJ he also has a Leona now I can't believe it I thought my eyes deceived me another Leona in your life they're calling her LJ for RJ RJ is very cute RJ is very cute I mean you know when I named Leona Leona I was like how many fun nicknames Leo and then no just Leona so I it seems um they because I I think your pitch was like oh Leona we're gonna call her blank he just immediately literally just started texting me being like LJ LJ LJ that's the thing you have to really decide lock it you gotta decide for them and I was like I'm not gonna decide for her but and there's also a Leo in her class so it's like you know it's too confusing unfortunately for you Leo which is an incredible name is like the new Kai or like I know it's like the new Kyle you know like I'm not like and it's like every class is gonna have one oh I know it's a very common name now especially for boys yeah so it's uh so Leona's maybe that is that did they have a connection to it did they did they just like the name do we know they didn't tell they they picked out the name really early into the pregnancy but didn't tell anybody the name um oh it's so good not that I'm biased I had a hunch it would start with an L because every damn baby I've ever met in the last five years starts with an L um everyone's got an L baby so I I but I that was me making like a silly theory out of it and then he said Leona and I went are you kidding me I was like we've already got one of those literally could have been like oh the name's Leona oh no I'm just thinking of an existing baby with that name like oh no that's actually it that's great I don't know any well there is actually one other Leona I've met Leona's age um so yeah here they come the Leonas of the world I mean if Leo's gonna be big every variation of Leo's gonna be that's right true good point um well congratulations to them I'm so happy it's a cute baby um I I've only seen a few pictures she does look very cute what an angel darling um yeah so that's that's about it and they it was uh by the way thank you to that little baby for holding on for like 48 hours or he would have shared the same birthday and I what was the birthday okay so I already did the big three don't worry about it RJ great sorry I'm telling your kids big three um well obviously the sun is Gemini uh the birthday was June 5th so we've got a third fourth and fifth now shut up um and I was telling I have another Leona Gemini hold on I'm having like some feelings some big feelings well I have another friend who also had a baby in June and I was like it cannot be my birthday because otherwise you're not going to come to my birthday party because your kids got a birthday party now we got to share the birthday party so and then there's going to be not enough juice boxes for you and all the children it's going to be a tragedy that's what I'm saying I'm glad so now we get two birthday parties that's what I wanted I want two birthday parties now you get to celebrate me I can celebrate them uh Tiana's baby is also is a June baby exciting this is so exciting is that an L baby too that's the only one that isn't an L baby oh um okay so little LJ for the masses yeah is Gemini sun Aquarius moon Sagittarius rising oh the baby's gonna be a handful I wrote I wrote back to him and I said she's gonna be so hysterical she's gonna be a fucking riot she's gonna be the funniest little kid I've ever met she's gonna be a riot dude yeah she's gonna be a riot and also like I'm not to be completely biased but Leona Gemini sun same yes Aquarius moon same um really the only difference is I'm also an Aquarius rising but Sag is Gemini's opposite sign oh sorry now we have to decide for which LJ we're talking or we're talking about sorry I mean what's your biggest big three uh she is a Libra sun ah Libra rising and a um Leo moon which is you know how silly it is silly because it's fucking like in my face and also uh the moon is like your mother like kind of like a mother symbol and like hers being Leo and I'm just like you're it's like she needs me to like see her and I'm like girlfriend I see you babe don't worry I see you so hard I don't know I mean I I just don't know about like by the way Leo moon sorry I just kind of I didn't even really realize that but to have a Leo moon and I named her Leona without obviously knowing what her moon would be anyway that's kind of cute I was I'm curious like the sun is the father sign right and the moon is the mother sign or is that how it works um I don't know I don't think I think the sun's more just like you're like life force like how you present to the world because I feel like it's very interesting first of all the fact that like Libra is like like balanced and grounded and all that and the fact that her sun and her moon are both so grounded um unless I'm wrong but that sounds like she's gonna be such a calm baby I know well didn't you say she's Libra Libra Leo yeah yeah yeah yeah well you know I wish but she's a very she's very intense and I think the Libra that comes out of her is like my brother like every like semantics are very important everything needs to be pretty much even she won't forget a single thing you've said because if you said it you know that's your word and your word is like she's like I'm not gonna fucking forget a single thing like I'm like easy breezy whatever you know things change she's like you said that and I'm gonna make you stick to that and I you know it's it's a little like intense but I think she's gonna be but she's a you know she's a social butterfly that is true that's true anyway I didn't know that was so excited for little Leona I know Leona Gemini I mean this is crazy town this is like oh how do I befriend a baby without being weird just I know no trust me that's as someone who's all my friends are having babies I'm like I'm gonna get real close a bunch of babies to like really wild Leona like to like loud Leona's in your life I imagine that's fine that's I love that for you I can be loud yeah oh yeah they're just matching your energy don't worry great okay I know we've gone deep into the the the yapping these days um or at the beginning of this so I'll jump right into my story I know it does feel like it's been days that we've been talking I I I know it we've only got so much time today because you're running off to do some stuff so I guess what I have to do I have to lift weights with my strength trainer that I have now because I'm healthy are you a gym rat what the fuck is going on no I just am like broken and I'm like somebody help me fix my body chi chi gong and now also this and I'm like I'm gonna do this and also and also and I do yoga in the mornings too I'm it's called sobriety I think is what's happening and also mental breakdown it's giving like not as an insult but like almond mom or something it's like oh I've got my everyday scheduled with a different thing no judgment I'm just like this is so not what I'm used to that's the fun thing about it is it's not taxing like physically taxing like it's just all very like chill like it's like at jiu-jitsu it's I put my arm here and it's like you know and then at yoga obviously it's like very like centered and then at strength training she's teaching me like better breathing technique it's like very like like better breathing and like pelvic floor issues and like very centered to like um postpartum bodies and stuff like that so it's it's uh it's cool but it's very it kind of all just happened at once and then reiki training I don't know it like it's weird it just kind of all happened at once not intentionally. You just you're like just like probably the most fit person I know these days. Oh trust me I'm not. Oh you've seen the video of me doing qigong with the flying pig right? You look great. You look great. I mean thank you but it's not necessarily you know like I'm not um making gains or whatever you know people say I'm just kind of vibing. Well proud of you. Thank you. Oh this old thing? Are you talking about your hair? I was gonna say to all my thirsty little rats I know sometimes I force you to take your meds and it's really a reminder for me to take my meds. These days I'm gonna I'm just gonna add Nutrafol onto that because this dome is shining lately. My mother is the queen of reviewers of this. And she's got like gorgeous locks so if if that woman is trusting Nutrafol I feel like we've all got to look up to her you know. Thinning hair is much more common than I realized and so it's really kind of exciting to see that other people are. 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For a limited time Nutrafol is offering our listeners ten dollars off. off your first month subscription and free shipping when you visit Nutrafol.com and enter promo code drink that's Nutrafol.com spelled n-u-t-r-a-f-o-l.com promo code drink this is a a hotel oh the best part about hotel stories at this point is we can fly kind of right through them um we can just get to the ghosts going to hotel I haven't traveled to a hotel in a long time and I'm like I kind of miss like a hotel moment not I don't think I ever thought I would say that but I miss a hotel I miss a hotel I don't miss traveling to the hotel but I miss no I don't either the moment I start thinking about it I'm like never mind well um this is the Holly Hotel in Holly Michigan I just love that name Holly it's one of my favorite names it's a good one um the Holly Hotel was opened in 1891 and like I said we can kind of fly through this history everyone can just repeat it with me that it was built to be a railroad in for people passing through from the near the nearby I love my baby that's the that's the fucking one I keep thinking about in the back of my mind I don't know it's like haunting me Chattanooga choo-choo is that I wonder if that's that has anything to do with like ears ringing I feel like there's some fucking is this a psychic message what's the Chattanooga choo-choo does it have anything to do with like when you like how you say Chattanooga sound like a train I mean it's a town in Tennessee I know but like you know people say Chattanooga Chattanooga Chattanooga and it's like sounds like a train oh I did not know I guess I had no idea Bruce didn't teach me that that's a cool fact yeah Bruce should have fucking Chattanooga Chattanooga Chattanooga Chattanooga Chattanooga choo-choo oh that's the Glenn Miller Orchestra which I have discussed was my MySpace artist for a while the Glenn uh the Glenn Miller Orchestra everything about you is different than what anyone else would say that's because I'm in Aquarius right now I'm in Aquarius right now I'm in Aquarius right and Moon and nobody can take that away from me well uh eat your heart out Bruce and all the music appreciators because uh somewhere in this hotel I'm sure some vaudeville music was playing I love it so it was a railroad in for people passing through from the nearby train line it was like over 25 30 trains coming in every day so they needed somewhere to stay okay and per usual because businessmen and politicians would be passing through this hotel needed to be very very elegant and yet it was also the hub for all the locals I'm literally just like I I promise I like my job I'm over the storyline um it was known mainly for its restaurant I guess that was one of the ways they really got people to keep coming in it's like well you got to try our food um but then by the 1940s what song was playing in the 1940s oh this one Chattanooga choo-choo 1940 perfect it was all the rage so now everyone played that in their head and the 1940s um cars and highways were becoming more common so less people were taking the train so there was no longer a need to like stay a night at a hotel in the middle as if it's a layover and eventually they just stopped really trying to be as much of a hotel and more of focusing on their restaurant and then to keep entertainment coming in they opened up a comedy club in there so it was now a restaurant and comedy club that also held high tea on Sundays or on every day so what I'm sensing here is that instead of like designing a program they almost found the people who could you know they could do whatever they wanted to do and they could do whatever they wanted to do offer their talents so like a chef was like I could make food and like clearly his food was really good and they were like okay we've got like a excellent restaurant and then someone was like um what was the other thing not for the high tea yeah someone clearly had to be a comedian first to be like well we have some funny talent here so I love that they're like bringing in the talent being like how can we utilize this or maybe someone just kept coming to the restaurant was so funny they were like just get up there and keep talking just give them a mic yeah yeah so they started uh really focusing more on that I mean this was closer to like you know this was many decades in where eventually it's now just a restaurant and a comedy club but that's probably basically eventually prohibition kicked in and while they couldn't serve alcohol they started trying other things to keep the hotel afloat and that's when they realized that entertainment was useful and so then after prohibition they kept bringing in entertainment with the restaurant and eventually it just became a comedy club they were like we don't booze I guess we'll have to hire a stand-up comedian people love that that's a terrible idea but okay I guess it worked so it was uh originally called the Hearst Hotel because it was built by a guy named John Hearst it was later renamed the Alphen nope Allendorf which is not even better than what I was gonna say Allendorf then Hotel Norton and then it became the Holly Hotel so best one best one for sure and also like Holly's the name of the fucking town like yeah I mean I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't yeah don't be ridiculous that's gonna work every time Norton get it get a grip get literally hey hey here's a grip get it I'll wait let me know when you go get it okay um one of the most notable pieces of history that happened in this hotel was in 1908 which uh was how many years in like 17 years into this hotel existing in 1908 do you know the name Carrie Nation I don't think maybe beautiful okay so next to this hotel there was a street called Battle Alley and it was called Battle Alley because there were so many bar fights happening in that street but they were oh I was like oh from the from the Civil War no they're just bar fights okay truly just from bar fights and so because it was only this rowdy because of booze this um intrigued a group of pro-temperance people hmm of course I'm not sure if that's true I'm not sure if that's true I'm not sure if that's true of course it did who one of the people involved was Carrie Nation her um her middle initial is a by the way and so she later changed her name spelling from Carrie C-A-R-R-I-E to C-A-R-R-Y so her name could be Carrie Nation don't be ridiculous I mean it's already Carrie Nation which like let it be right the cool thing don't like force it into something that it's already is like people are already making the joke for sure so like you don't need to like prove it it's like you're saying you're going taking it one joke too far you know yeah yeah I totally agree we're already on board like we see it talking yeah spelled the same it sounds the same so she uh well she she hopefully was not the comedian at the restaurant because she's not very fucking funny okay but according to Wikipedia she's also known as Hatchet Granny oh now we're talking that's her drag name I was gonna say that's her on stage after hours name for sure her persona Carrie Nation Hatchet Granny when she's actually a drunk and she's pretending like she's really not she's not part of the temperance movement exactly yeah don't tell them don't tell them um so in so she's in this pro-temperance group I think she actually created or founded the pro-temperance group she's projecting and her basically what ended up happening is the way she got into all this is that her husband died of alcoholism which led her to start like praying to God being like what should I do to get people to never have to deal with this again and I guess Jesus told her to make everyone carry a nation okay I mean like it speaks it writes itself so she's like I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know so Mr. Nation dies and then she's like well now I'm gonna go uh on all these protests to make sure that we just stop condoning drinking okay I can understand the sentiment I do I I want to I want to say that started in a good tragic tragic story we started in a good place or with good intentions yeah um she would go basically uh not I wouldn't say door-to-door but she would find the big bars in an area where or wherever alcohol was served and then she would just walk in and just start smashing all those bars and then she would just walk in and just start smashing all those bottles and all those glasses she just that was her fucking that's full-blown vandalism like Jesus at the temple oh my god oh my god so one of these places was Holly Hotel oh and but she was this time she went with her like her group over time she kind of like of course created a posse created a posse um there was a time where she created they fucking she just fucking attracted it I bet you there were times that she kept vandalizing and vandalized that she eventually got like a arrested for it and came back and then she like came out swinging even harder and was like now we're gonna go to every bar and so whoa yeah she's like nothing left to lose man yeah and so when she got to Holly Hotel this is a quote but the group clubbed patrons with their umbrellas and Carrie broke whiskey bottles in the hotel bar with an axe which is why she's hatchet granny okay now I'm loving this I mean I'm not loving it but I'm also kind of like intrigued you know I respect any woman especially in the early 1900s who was able to protest at all um yeah I mean you gotta yeah you gotta yeah that's that's a feat in and of itself you're right and you know what I mean the definition of a protest is to disrupt society and to go to their drinking holes and say fuck you and smash all their booze oh that I will say it's not really gonna I don't think it's gonna work I don't necessarily think the people there are but maybe maybe that's not the point maybe the point is you're making a name for yourself and that's I don't know the irony is that they probably thought she was hammered I mean maybe with with God's with the Holy Spirit or something yes drunk with God's love yes drunk on drunk on Holy Jesus um so her efforts actually did later help prohibition pass yikes so she was probably the most hated woman in the world to a few people wow so she really did okay I lied I was like oh she's not really gonna do anything with that but apparently She wasn't, I don't know if she was directly involved because I think by the time she passed away, prohibition hadn't even happened yet and it came later but i think she was at least the first steps into like people showing that they were not for this clearly like made a following or had a following yeah right um however in the biggest fu way possible um a lot of bars including holly hotel uh they commemorate her protests there by now having like annual reenactments and like discounting their drinks at the bar i thought you were gonna say there's a cocktail named after her which i'm sure there's plenty oh i'm sure there's like with holly like oh my god doesn't it feel like the ultimate slap in the face though like what's her name again care oh carry a nation i mean you really could get a little crazy with that if you wanted to make a little cocktail after her which is kind of fucked up i would hope it'd be a mocktail at the very least you could have a sign outside on the day the anniversary and just say like carry a drink around you know just open open container open carry yeah open carry so oh open carry holy shit that's good um don't let don't tell the nra about that because they're gonna take that and run with that's an open carry i'm chill open carry a nation um so anyway so basically the hotel would have like annual reenactments of like crazy like someone actually coming in and like pretending to like be carry nation um they would have discounts on their drinks that day but they have like an annual event about the day that she came in similar bars i this is i'm just i looked her up very quickly because she's not supposed to be the main character of the story but the story is pretty quick and so i was just trying to find a fun fact for us to deep dive into and this is the one um so i did a quick wikipedia search on her i did not like go very deep into it but um other bars that she like vandalized also do this now so like it's not just holly hotel but there's um a bar in missouri that is called the broken hatchet brewery that i guess either she was once at or they're they named themselves after the story um this is the bar that she's the coolest thing i saw was that the inventor of the pet rock who made like millions he used those millions his pet rock money went to opening a bar called the carry nation saloon no yeah isn't that fun what in the fuck that is the weirdest fact i've ever heard because he'd be like what the hell the guy with the pet rock like how did he make that much money one and two what the hell did he do with that money and he ended up making a saloon with the name of someone who would have hated it he had a fucking vision yes he really had a plan he said first i gotta get people to like these goddamn rocks put a googly eye on this rock here's the thing he doesn't got to do anything it fucking it's like he just channeled some divine fucking he's like here's a rock and everyone's like i fucking love it i mean really his parents probably like oh my kid like all he wants to do is grow up and open a bar but where is he gonna get the money and he had he was sitting on a pile of rocks and he went i've got an idea i'm gonna sell them fucking sell themselves hotcakes fun fact there is a segment about carry nation on drunk history so oh that would be fun it it was a quick little clip on um uh on youtube you can just go watch it it's like five minutes um but it was very interesting and anyway all that to say we're at a hotel that was once a railroad and blah blah blah carry nation that was one of her stops on her big like i love that bar protest tour and um once she had passed away prohibition took over and prohibition became obviously this really big thing and the hotel needed a way to keep afloat so one of the first ways that they had entertainment at the hotel to keep people coming in was i only one source said this but apparently they had a movie theater in there at some point and they had an ice cream parlor in there at some point but here's here's my favorite thing is that i've read enough of these histories about hotels and during prohibition era at this point a lot of them opened ice cream parlors and they were actually speakeasies wink wink yeah wink so i'm kind of wondering did the holly hotel actually open an ice cream parlor or they just put a big parlor in front of their bar yeah did are in there and said it's for ice cream you know we really did start and that's where we drank with booze and ice cream not knowing that it was like actually such a key plot line no for in prohibition era and we really don't talk about that very often but yeah no but that really we like if this was also a prohibition era podcast like that would have secretly actually been the perfect fucking oh my god you're totally right and we didn't even know it um okay so back to the hotel the main tragedy that happened at this hotel was that it had suffered three separate fires um one of them in 1913 uh and it was enough that the hotel was so destroyed it had to be renovated and it was kind of a blessing in disguise because during its renovations they were able to like add electricity and shit like that but they also kind of changed some things design wise where it didn't look as what we would consider beautiful today but then in 1978 literally on the 65th anniversary of the first fire all the way down this is a quote exactly the hour what same hour on the same day 65 years apart um i think this one was faulty wiring no that damn electricity shouldn't have put the electricity in um but they it ended up causing over half a million dollar in damages so they had to re-re-do it it's starting to feel like the bob's burgers intro oh my god yes he has another banner yeah yeah um but another blessing in disguise because fun fact this second time around that they had to renovate after a fire they used the original 1891 blueprints and got it back to looking exactly how it did in see i love that maybe that's what needed to happen it was like hey actually let's just start over the first time was like we're gonna burn it down so you put some electricity in there then we're gonna burn down again so you can get back to how it was looking yeah yeah we actually kind of didn't want you to go that far you went a little too modern with the fixtures exactly so during this renovation or if like two years after it ended up joining the national register of historic places and then the third fire the third and final one was actually only four years ago and the fire happened at a nearby building it was like an arcade i thought arcade like games but i think it was like like the name of like a like a mall like a strip oh like a plaza yeah yeah um and it started in one building and then kind of swept through the whole series of buildings and then it was like a whole series of buildings and then it was like a whole series of shops and got to the hotel and uh i guess i guess the town knows that this hotel has caught on fire a lot and so 18 different fire departments showed up to like put water out on this thing they tried to handle it they were like not again yeah they're like hundreds of firefighters uh in the aftermath of this fire the owners ended up trying to rebuild but then the owner of the catch on fire again like so the actual hotel did oh no and like got pretty messed up jesus um when they and would see i read an interview somewhere that said like the owners only lived like seven minutes away and by the time they got there it was like already just destroyed that's so weird so they have this fire they're gonna rebuild it but then the people who own the arcade that originally caught on fire they end up getting in some sort of like legal dispute with that guy because technically now that it's 2022 property lines are different than they were in 1991 so if they're trying to keep the hotel as original as possible it now is like crossing into like new property lines that the other guy technically owns and so he was like i don't want you on my property line you can't rebuild in this area and they're like but then it wouldn't be authentic to the original like can you just like i don't care yeah i would have been like on their side been like can you just humor us like we're trying to like really respect the history but i also get his side to like have his problem i mean i don't know it's not his fucking problem yeah i don't i don't i don't know how it got so tricky so quickly but it did and i guess it just became there was some rule i i didn't save this part but in some statement that they put out it was like as as long as we if we keep our if we if we're honoring the original property lines then like he has a reason to like keep our crews from building the rest something happened where it just wasn't going to happen so with enough back and forth on this they decided like fuck it like we're just we just have to close and so as of 2024 the hotel has closed oh that's too bad okay it's um i don't know if it's sold since but it's been on sale at least as of 2024 for 900 000 um and the bones are still good of it but the it definitely needs like a facelift after the fire um but that's all the history so as for ghosts oh i bet there's plenty yeah so well i don't know even know if anyone died in the fires i didn't see anything fires alone don't but it sounds like somebody's trying to fucking burn this place down maybe maybe carrie maybe from the beyond she's like i'm not through with you with a name like carrie i'm just saying carrie a nation carry the universe she basically i mean they must have known things were going on paranormally here a long time ago because back in the 80s they had investigators coming out oh wow in the 80s yeah you don't hear that often so in 1989 there was one um guy who was named norman gothier and you should do an episode on that guy i feel like he'd be funny to talk about not funny but i feel like he's like there's something about this guy he reminds me of a chip coffee you know yeah i would actually want to know about this guy i'd stick to your original phrasing and say he's funny because i'm like what were you doing in the 80s being a paranormal investigator like you gotta give me the deets on this guy something's happening but he went in and he was pretty like renowned uh i don't know about renown but people knew his name and he confirmed was quote loaded with spirits so um that was kind of all the hotel needed to be like all right we're a haunted hotel we've had first leaf wines as a sponsor for so long like they've been just a part of our journey yeah i mean run it back to like episode like 20 or something i think they were one of our very first ads we ever ever did i think so and they're back at it asking us to um make sure you guys know just how incredible they are from like brand new wine tasters to wine snobs uh first leaf is gonna be very yummy for you i tell you that katie um who does a lot of like behind the scenes for the podcast and for parapods and she was saying that her brother's a wine snob and when she uh like he would literally was a winery apprentice and gave him one of the bottles and he was raving about the wine how good it was so i feel like that's probably the top like personal endorsement you could get they deliver premium wine straight to your door every month oh and a quiz there's a quiz there's the quiz and we that was i think the first quiz you ever probably took for that i took it 16 times so whether you're like you know just making pasta or like a charcuterie board or whatever it is or house warming gift is always good gift if you know whatever the reason is you know a first leaf is there for you and it will just get sent to your house it's incredible stop settling for wines that don't quite hit the mark head to tryfirstleaf.com slash drink to sign up and you'll get 50 off your first box plus free shipping for an entire year that's t-r-y-f-i-r-s-t-l-e-a-f dot com slash drink tryfirstleaf.com slash drink so the first ghost that people know about pretty well is mr hearst the guy who first originally opened the building when it was hearst hotel it was named is this like the hearst family like publishing family h-i-r-s-t oh nevermind okay so uh people see his apparitional app they see a man quote in a 19th century frock coat and top hat oh hot i was gonna say it's been like a hundred years take it off come on go to jc penny like it's okay to just wear some basketball shorts you're dead seriously like and you know people leave stuff in the in the hotel room just grab something just anything that's such a good point you're in a house full of clothing just take it correct and they would probably love it if you took it because then they get a ghost story out of it found just go through the last and found they don't need that shit anymore if you okay you're dead now so like what's your official well first of all do you change your clothes if you're going to have one if you're told you only get one outfit are you going for like style are you going for comfort because you're there for eternity how about both okay i'm going for i want to look cute but never regret what i'm wearing forever which is very hard to find but i think i would have to spend a lot of time trying to put that together i think thank you for asking but i would have to know if i if i sweat because if i sweat i'm gonna have a lot of outfit changes you know i would need to know about your life what's the is is the afterlife a perfect 71 70 sure perspiration ratio i need to know all these things before i commit to any sort of clothing i agree and but if i'm stuck wearing one thing forever and like i am sensory aware of what i'm wearing at any point like i need to know that going into this and i trouble trouble people would just be like oh my god we went to m schultz's house and there was a homeless person haunting and it would just be me like in like the most raggedy comfortable things possible like i like i feel like like the kardashian are probably gonna die and be wearing like they're like crazy skin tight like things that aren't comfy silk lingerie that they sleep in or whatever yeah and it's like oh couldn't be me i'm wearing my basketball shorts that have three holes in them i'm wearing my sweatshirt that has four like i'm gonna be real so basically our generation of ghosts is gonna be so much scarier because we're all just gonna be wearing like cloaky baggy like kind of like sorcerer style dark layers and like the clothes that zombies wear where it just looks run the fuck down yeah where it's like how many layers did you put on and also i feel like part of it is like i just got up to pee and i accidentally died on the way you know yeah like i was watching i was binging my show and i really had to pee and then i died and that's how i got here um and also like usually that that whole vibe goes with sort of like a don't perceive me element and i feel like that also hand in hand with the ghost thing is gonna be troubling for future investigators i think that's also like i don't know i don't know if i'm gonna be able to do that i don't know if i'm gonna be able to do that it like make because if i know when i go i want to be found by investigators like i'm let this statement be known if at some point i'll be dead and at some point i would like to think one paranormal investigator is going to hear this yeah contact me i'm telling you right now i will i want to be found i will actively if if ghosts are real i'm and you're in my house or you're somewhere where i'll be like you're not hiding i'm not hiding and i will act you don't have to say like we would love to for you to come out and tell us your story fuck that i'm screaming my story and if you can't hear it it's because the machines are broken m's been following you around for days knowing you're on the way i literally if you felt if you felt a tingle on the way it's because i was already there you're like excuse me but you want to i would argue that wearing my like ratty clothes would be better because like you're definitely not gonna like confuse me with someone else in the crowd you know what i mean like except christine who also dies someday and looks exactly like that but yeah like at the haunted house like the haunted houses were like they think they like a child is lost in there but then they realized it was like a random like it was a dead kid sure it's like well maybe if he was like barefoot and wearing like something that was clearly 20 years older than than his timeline yeah yeah yeah it would have been a little more more obvious yeah yes i get you i get you yeah i think that's where i'd be but then if if you die in the outfit that you just if you're a ghost in the outfit that you died in that i'm probably just only going to be in my underwear and that's even more embarrassing oh well it is but it isn't because also it's threatening i don't know what you're right it's all about how you look at it it's all about confidence as long as i'm walking around bold without pants boldly that's it's all about the attitude yeah pants are like 80 percent of the time not on me so i really hope you get to choose the outfit because oh yeah i i've already resigned myself to being like half nude when i die because i don't i don't usually wear pants yeah no what i find interesting though and one of the reasons i don't believe that you you i think you get to choose what you wear is that so many people have probably died naked you i've not a single naked ghost have i heard of they know better than to like like approach you like that that is so true and i feel like maybe part of that is that you they say you know you kind of revert back to an image of yourself at like the peak or like the the most glowing version of you and i would presume most people don't maybe some which like good for you i hope to i aspire to be that way but i don't feel my most like golden and holy when i'm in the nude you know maybe my golden era would be more of like something cute i wore on stage you know or something like maybe that maybe you just get reverted back to like oh your youthful self but not necessarily like oh oops you're naked sorry forever i mean if we're going off of like art like what we would wear on stage when you felt your best i know you're coming in haunting us with that fucking black leather jacket i fucking know or the blazer the blazer the blazer and the black jeans with the holes in the knees christine you look so killer in those oh as a ghost people will be like i don't know if she was dead or alive but she was fucking slamming you know what i mean but she really she's probably got a leo moon because she is really in our fucking faces and will not leave us alone holy shit well anyway this guy's got a fucking frock coat and a top hat i can't imagine anything more uncomfortable maybe that was his evening wear maybe we don't know you know it's so embarrassing maybe that was his version of looking slamming and we're just ragging on him that's maybe he was like that is my choice and now i'm humiliated and i'm sorry oh i feel bad now well when i get there on the other side i'll make a stop in michigan and go i didn't mean it i'm sorry um so anyway he's also accompanied by the smell of cigar smoke and he has quite a deep baritone voice that people can hear laughing and i like to think it's because of the comedy club i bet it's hilarious i bet he's like i don't know what these kids are saying but they don't know what they're saying because they don't even know what they're saying because they don't know what they're saying because they don't know what they're saying because they don't know what they're saying because they don't know what they're saying because they don't know what they're saying people also see a different man or maybe the same man unclear a man and the halls vanishing in front of them while helping turn off lights and closing doors oh so he's like let me help but get out of the but don't look at me i'm sorry he's like don't look at me but just gonna do my work you would think like you'd vanish before you turn off the lights but he turns off the lights after like so you see a man fade away and then all of a sudden the lights got out and you're like oh yeah he's like oh don't yeah do those in reverse i'm the invisible janitor yeah i don't like that um people also uh see a different ghost this one her name is nora kane what a powerful name love that nora kane i think died and now comes back with a boa on her neck or something like something for sure noah kane's so powerful she was thing yeah uh she's a former hostess of the hotel and people see her whole apparition uh like walking around and her her full body but sometimes people only see her head floating right so is the boa the oh wait the boa was something you made up sorry i forgot i i forgot the bow was like you said i was like holy shit the boa okay it's just gonna fall right on the ground it's just her head that's disturbing yeah strange even staff have said like we were closing up and then we thought we saw a woman in the other room but when we looked it was like only her head that's fucking weird people often see uh nora standing in the old main entrance which would make sense for her but it is now the bar area people also say that she will photobomb your pictures if you're there for a venue that i love that like a function she'll just her head i don't know actually because that would make it more convenient and if you can float up if you can only show your head can you not also sometimes just like only show like an ankle and like be really scandalous yeah like can you just like flash and only one maybe shows up i don't know what the possibilities are she's also heard singing or if you're by a piano she people have heard her ask them to play piano for her oh um apparently the piano will also play by itself sometimes very it's probably fucking bruce the fucking guy always seeking a piano out he's still trying to figure out that chattanooga song or something please he's still trying to teach it to me so most commonly people know her by her lavender perfume and like i said the other guy mr hearst people know him by his cigar smell i think the smells are much more confident more common than seeing them um but with nora kane people uh have also seen her specifically in the bathroom but it's always like after you've already gone to the bathroom and you go to the sink to wash your hands and then she just like appears next to you and she's whispering something you can't hear well i hate that and also it reminds me of the photo bombing where she just like appears in a reflection of you or like in uh in behind you or oh yeah yeah no thank you there's um how do i put it i don't know if it's nora kane or if it's a different woman but one of the staff members have said that although she seems really nice her demeanor and it's something a lot more like a monster oh what could that mean i just hate it what could that mean and then like no more information happens about that it's just yeah that's it so you just get to guess and maybe go there and hope like she just gets like a little bitchy because everyone's like crowding in or is it like she literally turns demonic you know what i mean like there's like a wide range of what that could mean and there's something so eerie about anyone whispering and you can't hear what they're saying but they're looking at you oh and yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah no there's also the ghost of a little girl who ranges widely between 9 and 15 oh just can't tell people are bad at guessing ages including me i'm bad at guessing um all height weight age i can't i can't guess any of it if someone was like where they look like i would just describe a completely wrong person um picture a person and that's usually what they look like yeah and also because i'm so gender inclusive i'm like i couldn't even maybe a little mask maybe a little whatever they were feeling they weren't wearing a pin with their pronouns so it's not for me to say yeah you're better off with just a solid shadow like peter pan shadow is yes yeah where we start and that's where we end i get it i can see it there's a little girl here between 9 and 15 although some have said it's two separate little girls which would make more sense to me but she's said to either be nora's daughter or apparently there was a story that a kid got trampled by one of the horses one time oh no i don't know how true that is but that's at least a rumor and people think that that's a rumor and i don't know how true that is but that's at least a rumor and people that's where the spirit of the girl might be coming from um but she's heard running up and down the halls she's heard giggling she moves objects around the hotel she showed up one time during a seance horrifying um and most of the time she haunts the kitchen actually one chef it was very funny in an interview he was like it's actually really fucking annoying during like rush time and like i'm busy and there's a kid giggling in my ear oh my god and sharp knives everywhere yes well speaking of sharp knives her favorite thing to do is play with the knives i knew it um especially there's this one particular meat cleaver oh god that like everyone knows is like her favorite toy which like of course in all of the reenactments there's like a little girl at the end of a hall holding a meat cleaver yeah that's her but with her favorite toy more realistically i think she's just like maybe playing kitchen or something because like the knives will just get moved all over the place the teapots will get moved all over the place yeah it's like she's just like like a ghost in a house like moving stuff around yeah yeah um but like the the one chef will just get moved all over the place the teapots will get moved all over the place yeah it's that was already kind of complaining about her was like i'll leave it right here at my station and then all of a sudden it's like over here and i know nobody has touched it like they know the meat cleaver of all things this is probably going to be your favorite of all all of the ghosts is her name's leona wait really and she's a little rat terrier a dog named leona this is getting crazy kind of better than either human leona i would argue like now you've got the puppy element oh my god you know all right well you know i'm going to go with the puppy element i gotta stand by my girl i'm not gonna do that i'm just trying to air i'm just trying to cause a fight so so seeds of discord i'm just saying with the rat terrier i can really i don't think leona would let me do this to her face you know what i'm saying i don't know that a rat terrier would let you do that to its face i'm just gonna put that out there right now i think i have a better chance with the rat terrier let's put it that way yeah my leona would be much more likely to bite so that's that part is true and i do speak from experience if you're wondering has she gone through a biting phase yet she is not actually knock on wood she bit me one time i bit my mom one time when i was little and i remember like everyone does it once one day my mom my child's gonna bite my shoulder and i'm gonna and it happened and then it never happened thank god knock on wood but i think i also bit one time and then i was like i actually didn't really enjoy that yeah and my mom for sure fucking didn't she had a terrible time and then um she actually bit me back one time anyway anyway this is the end of the show thank you so much for watching and i'll see you in the next one this is the third cutest leona out there uh the rat terrier wow thanks a lot so nice i'm just gonna i'm just gonna back away slowly nice but people hear paws running around which like if you're gonna have a ghost in the hotel make it that's very sweet it has to be a little clattering dog for sure a little pitter patter the most soothing sound like footsteps no i can you imagine having a ghost dog where because my dog is i know geo's one of them too he's one of those dogs that when he lies down it's almost a guarantee that he's going to be a ghost dog and he's going to be a every time you get one of those like so over it groans where it's like yeah it's like give me a break yeah um imagine having a ghost that just sounds over it in your room with you and you're like was that a man or a dog yeah is that a rat terrier or what i think all i mean if it's a rat terrier probably sounds cuter than when my dog does it but you're right but they hear paws running around uh apparently you'll see paw prints on dusty parts of the floor sweet people will hear a dog brushing up against them or like a tag a tail wagging against them and then other than that um objects there's a quote objects will levitate inside across tables uh people also hear faint old-fashioned music playing they'll get their clothes tugged on apparitions will show up at the top of the stairs looking back at you uh silverware will rearrange itself chairs will rearrange themselves doors will slam people have gotten many evps here servers have um ordered at tables i've gotten orders from tables and when they look back no one's actually sitting there so i got a fake ass order that's crazy i love that and i wonder if they're ordering food that's like not on the regular menu like we got to compare those orders is it the same order every time is it like yeah like crab walder what the fuck or is it like gelatin shrimp mold or is it like sprite yeah i want to know i wonder if one of them is like i've been hearing all this all the new rage about this dr pepper i gotta try that or like dr pepper and the waitress is like i'll see what we apparently they put orders in and then realize no one's sitting there there have been other times where they take an order at like a table of three and then only two people order and they realize the third person see that's so creepy that's so creepy and then they're like where's your friend and it's like what the fuck yeah no literally horrifying and imagine if it were us and we just found out someone was sitting at our table exactly clear as day uh no whoo that would be like who is it what do they look like what kind of crab did they order and they'd be like well think of a boy girl hot dog and they'd be like what kind of crab did they order and they'd be with a range of height and weight and age think of a shadow of a person make a peter pan shadow and just go from there um the final thing i'm gonna say is that uh on reddit somebody wrote in that had investigated the place a few years ago and this is a quote from them this is from a user called jenny lava and uh they said while investigating the area or the attic area i was slapped so hard across the back of my head that it pushed me into my friend what the fuck that's not cool fully like bitch slapped it's not cool it's not cool it's not cool it's not cool it seems like holy crap katao who would do that which one of these ghosts at that little girl with a meat cleaver i bet i don't know oh my god she hit you with a meat cleaver and you just think you got slapped in the head it's a cute little puppy um maybe so then uh they go on to say we heard growling coming from a far back corner where no one wanted to go on the main dining floor we looked through some sort of night vision heat vision goggles and i saw someone dining at a and i was the only person in the room and once we got back to the basement we decided to stand in a circle with our lights off to see if one last thing could happen so we turned the flashlights back on and a few moments later and a twine bracelet with a washer appeared in the middle of the circle what it's like a random bracelet appeared but like a twine with a washer on it yeah like somebody's hand crafted in the like dark basement corner of all they could find on the dusty floor like that's not cool horrible yeah agreed like i made you this what the fucking hell like a parting gift oh it's a charm like no that's trash put that down don't touch that well um the holly hotel if you want to learn more the it is featured on the first you know i would wear that home i'm such a i'm such a dumb bitch i'm like i would wear that right home and you'd be like and i'd be like why are we cursed and you'd be like you took the gift from the small child and put it on your wrist. It's like literally on fire. And you're like, I don't get it. it 100 i'd be like it was a gift from a small child um so i just say that to say take everything i say with a grain of salt people if you want to learn more uh you can watch uh about the holly hotel on most terrifying places in america and its first season um there was also you could watch the drunk history of carrie a nation and that was season three and then in 2022 there was a they call it a hallmark movie it's actually somehow worse um and it was not by hallmark but people call it a hallmark movie because of the the aesthetic it brings and it was called christmas at the holly hotel and i can't tell if the movie was inspired by the holly hotel or and or um some of the articles i read said that it was actually filmed at the holly hotel so oh cool could be both could be neither um but the plot i'll just read you the the synopsis yeah kathy a fiercely independent new york city based food critic who was asked by her parents to return home for the to return home to michigan for the holidays to help manage a massive christmas dinner at the historic holly hotel while while navigating her career aspirations she reconnects with her family and falls in love with a local police officer named matthew and i'm sure god matthew goes please stay i'll do anything oh please you're from the big city for beach to sandy here are the first five reviews yes so tedious so boring so bad but like a train wreck i couldn't stop watching the worst acting i've ever seen in a movie terrible oh no oh no oh no and that's you hate to see that well yeah we've read reviews of lifetime movies and hallmark and boy oh boy you gotta and they they get rough you know um wow well done i just i love a haunted hotel you know that about me i'm sad it's closed i hope somebody can kind of get it cooking again yeah if someone's got just a cool casual million dollars yeah just like litigation with this like other business let me know and want to like run an entire hotel operation yeah that may or may not have been the set of a hallmark not hallmark knockoff hallmark movie yeah with probably 1.5 out of five stars nobody's seen tv on online wow good job i'm gonna pee yeah then let's do a yappy hour we'll do a quick yappy hour because the we talked so much in the beginning okay we'll do a quick yappy hour do you look like cupid's first aid you know what i'm saying like um not first aid like like a like an aid like firsthand aid oh the red cross okay like an aid like a person jesus doctors without borders i guess okay here what i i'm listen i'm doing something similar to all these beautiful humanitarian missions which is that i am bringing you some really good news which is that zenny makes wonderfully affordable stylish statement piece glasses um or if you're like blaze and you just want rectangle ones fine you can do that too but i got the hearts i got the ones that turn pink and also they block people i think from stealing my identity it said your identity still has not been stolen thanks to zenny still safe behind these beautiful heart-shaped glasses you know whether it's prescription glasses sunglasses blue light lenses apparently um identity protection yep yep you can get anything going on over there and they have over 150 000 five-star reviews so beachy sandy actually can't it's ironic that you have to talk about them on your show where you just get bad reviews they look stunning if you ever want to know what i meant by cupid's aid hopefully someone knows you just look like the right hand man to someone who's in charge of love if your glasses are overdue for a refresh now is the time go to zenny.com slash podcast and use code podcast 15 for 15 off your first order the styles sell out so don't sit on it that's z-e-n-n-i.com slash podcast promo code podcast 15. okay welcome back we just went to a deep dive um on my reiki stuff so if you're interested you go join the try in the yappy hour um okay let me find the document because this one um it's a doozy oh boy it's a doozy um so this is one of those stories that i had always wanted to cover and never it was always bookmarked and for some reason i didn't want to cover it because i it never happened and now here we are it is a story of gerard schaefer um a serial killer so okay for those who've been complaining i don't cover enough serial killers here you go hope you're happy uh 1972 of course the era of serial killers yeah yeah peak era yeah peak era of serial killers 1972 susan place was earning her high school diploma at an adult education center in florida she had moved in with her family to a suburb of fort lauderdale from her childhood home in michigan and was struggling to fit in at her new high school a complication during birth had caused something called hemiplegia which is like a paralysis that affects one side of your body and she was diagnosed with epilepsy and so being in high school moving to a new high school is already tough and then you've got you know differences that are more obvious and you know the epilepsy and she's feeling not quite right she's not fitting in back in michigan she did have a good group of friends she'd been a friendly and fun-loving teenager she sang she played piano and guitar but in this new town in florida she was really struggling to make friends um she got of course bullying from from her classmates for her disabilities uh and then not only was school tough but outside of school things were not much better she was fired from her job because she disclosed that she had epilepsy on her job application and the grocery store's insurance company considered her a liability and so they fired her okay uh just to give you an idea of like how tough things were her sister kristin recalls her calling one day crying and just asking why do i have to be an epileptic because it was just she felt like that was making her life so much harder and she was like i'm gonna have to be an epileptic and she was like i'm gonna have to be an epileptic and she was like i'm gonna have to be an epileptic it's so sad and remember this was pre-ada so like pre-americans with disabilities act which exists to protect folks with disabilities uh from discrimination and you know back then especially it was like well sorry the insurance company doesn't want you around so bye you know right so looking for any sort of solution to the isolation and discrimination that she at least faced at school um susan decided to finish her diploma at the adult education center and her parents were supportive of that choice they understood and it was there at the adult education center that she met 16 year old georgia jessup who sometimes went by the nickname crystal now georgia's parents were divorced but they were co-parenting and remained relatively friendly but georgia was like a wanderer she wanted to travel she wanted adventure she ran away a few times but she always came back because she wanted to travel she wanted to travel she wanted to travel she actually loved her parents so it wasn't so much that she was running away from like a life she didn't like she just loved to adventure okay so the two of them actually had this in common this wanderlust especially after um susan had moved to florida and felt so out of place they both were like we want to get out of here you know and you introduced two teenagers with wanderlust and um here you go there's probably gonna be something like um a coming of age movie happens totally every plot yep so georgia uh she loved this sort of like lifestyle of running away and being kind of uh flighty but she always came back she actually even sometimes like called her parents on the way home to be like oh sorry i ran away for a few days but i'm i'm heading home didn't want to worry you like she's just off and about okay for her you know what so far yeah for her i know i know and so you know i think her parents are probably having just heart attack after heart attack but she's she's exploring she's a free bird okay so they had this in common they even wandered all the way to new york one time and remember they're in florida okay so yeah they they they wander and uh they called their parents to say don't worry we're on our way home and it was also at this same adult education center that the two of them georgia and susan met a man named jerry shepherd jerry was 26 so he was far away from the girls who were teenagers he told them he was from colorado where he said he spent his days out in the wilderness as an experienced outdoorsman and he said you know i love to travel would you girls ever want to travel with me and also like why are you ruining our best friend time like we're we're off gallivanting what do you mean because you're a third fucking unfortunately we're not trying to collab here you know unfortunately i wish that were the case but they were very drawn by his allure of having transportation of having money of having access to travel and adventure and i think they just couldn't resist he invited the girls to travel with them and on one occasion georgia and susan tried to run away together to colorado but the police caught them hitchhiking and brought them home to their parents and not long after that georgia left home with jerry in jerry's car and they stopped at susan's house to pick her up now georgia was running away but susan was not she was actually almost 18 at this point and so she had told her parents that she was planning to travel to colorado and she was like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't travel to Colorado. So in some way she had already told them that this was what she was going to be doing. Um, it wasn't like a solid plan. Um, her family didn't know much, but she didn't want to just disappear. Like she told her parents, I'm going to be in Colorado for a while at some point. So the last time she'd run away and come home, she promised never to run away again because her mother had gotten so upset. So she was very adamant that her mom knew where she was this time on September 27th, 1972, Susan's mother, Lucille found Susan cleaning her bedroom and in the room with her were Georgia, her best friend and Jerry Shepard, the 26 year old creep. Okay. Lucille was like, Oh boy, Susan's packing. Are you going to Colorado? Yep. There she goes. And she says, yes, I am leaving town tonight. That's the plan. Damn. That's a lot of, there's no turnaround time for these parents. Not at all. And the mom is really like, please don't do that. Please don't do this. You know? I mean, it's just like very sudden, but her daughter cried and told her mom that she was tired of Fort Lauderdale. She didn't feel at home there. She wanted time with her friends. Um, and her mom was just very worried, argued with her, but Susan was just not going to be swayed. She was not going to budge. And finally, um, you know, she just couldn't really do much except accept the situation. Um, she later recalled that Jerry, uh, for his part seemed extremely smug and calm during the whole situation. And, uh, he actually inserted himself during there. Of course he did. And he said, don't worry. We're only planning to go to the beach to play guitar tonight. What a fucking creepo. And also sounds like not at all what she's saying. It sounds like they're going to Colorado. Exactly. She literally said I'm going to Colorado and he's like, don't even worry. Like, yeah, I feel like that mom immediately got creepy vibes from that. Oh, big time, big time. She knew. And by the way, like you're a hundred percent right. And she is not going to go away yet. Cause she knew, she knew. Yeah. By the way, if anyone hears, I, that's me shifting in the chair. I just heard it through my ear headphones and I went, I'm sure that microphone picked up a sound that was questionable. What did it sound like? I missed it. I think it sounded like a little too, but it was like a little, Oh, sure. Sure. No, no. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I took the risk by even saying anything. I'll be honest. I didn't hear it. So. Okay, cool. I'll just have Jack amplify that in post. Here, here, here. This is the sound. This is the sound. You ready? Did you hear that? No. Okay. Whatever. I was, I'm trying to, it's a zipper, whatever. It doesn't matter. Whatever, everybody. It's funnier the more you explain it. I know. I'm like trying to breathe actually. I'm like my stupid couch. It probably sounds like I'm farting all day long on this couch. Okay. Uh, I've never even thought to say anything. Okay. So of course this asshole is like completely smug and you are a hundred percent right that she got bad vibes because the next line in my notes is that she wrote down his fucking license plate because she was like, something is up with this dude, but she knew she couldn't stop her daughter. Like it sucks, right? Like her daughter's about to be 18 legally. She can leave. And what are you going to do? I mean, write down the license plate. And so that's what she does. Um, which like good for her. I'm so glad she did that. But, uh, anyway, they left the three of them left and Lucille of course felt this pit in her stomach. She wrote down Jerry's license plate and, um, well, wouldn't you know, as Susan did not come home that night and four days passed with no word, not a phone call, nothing. Lucille knew something was wrong because Susan had promised to be in contact if she did go to Colorado and that she would tell her mom where she was and that she was safe. Uh, not only that, but Susan hadn't actually packed any clothes or other belongings. Like they were like, Oh, we're just going to go to the beach to play guitar tonight. And then we'll do the big move. But she went to the beach to play guitar and then never came home and didn't bring any bags or suitcases or anything like that. Do we think this guy was, um, trying to immediately like shift the story? So that way, if, if slash when the kids went missing, the mom would go to a beach and it would save time or like, Oh, like almost like B. Try to tell her a different location, preemptively divert her to a different place. So he had more time to like hide bodies or whatever. Could be, could be, I don't know. We shall see. We'll, we shall see. Okay. Um, so Susan had promised to be in contact, but she wasn't. And not only did she not pack any of her clothes or belonging, she didn't pack her epilepsy medication and like, you don't go without that. Lucille called some of Susan's few friends and, uh, connected with George's mom who she actually didn't know. She didn't know George's mom at this point. That's when they realized that both girls were together and gone and had been not heard from. Um, Lucille learned that Georgia had left a note for her parents because remember she was running away. Like she was intentionally not telling her parents. And so she ran away on September 27th and left a note. Um, now certain something was wrong because neither girl had contacted home. Lucille shared the license plate information with George's mother and both women reported their daughters missing to the police. They provided the license plate number, but wouldn't you just know it? The police missed the detail that the number was registered in a different County. And so they were not able to pull up his car by the license plate and the investigation died. That's tough. That's doesn't that make you crazy? I really thought at the end of like, she was going to save the day and like, obviously she's done the right thing. And so don't worry. She comes back. She comes back. Unfortunately, neither Susan nor Georgia would be seen again. Now I want to time travel backwards a bit here. Three months earlier in July of 1972, teenagers, Nancy Ellen Trotter and Paula Sue Wells, who went by her middle name, Sue were hitchhiking in Florida and they were both from a very far from their small town homes. 18 year old Nancy was from Texas. 17 year old Sue came from Michigan. Um, they had first met while they were both hitchhiking to Chicago and became fast friends. They decided to divert their plans. They went to the southeast to go be in the sunshine. And after a day at Jensen beach, they were hitchhiking to their temporary home in Stewart when a deputy sheriff pulled over beside them and informed them that hitchhiking was illegal there. Now, Nancy and Sue were, neither of them were aware of this supposed law, but he said, don't worry, you're not in trouble. I'll drive you home. They accepted the ride. And on the way he even offered them to give, he even offered to the beach in the morning. How nice of him. Uh huh. The sheriff's deputy was none other than 26 year old Gerard Jerry Schaefer. He seemed very straight laced professional. Uh, Nancy and Sue were also very adventurous girls and they had a sense of curiosity about where they were going. Um, they thought, well, okay, we get a ride, but we also befriend a local who is like trustworthy, right? He's a police officer. Yeah. So anything, you've got, you would think that'd be helpful. Totally. Totally. Especially if you're not up to anything dangerous, you just want someone trusted to that. You can like look, look to. And of course he knows that. Um, so hitchhiking was of course, as we know, much more commonplace in the sixties and seventies, these two girls were also very well-traveled and confident. Um, they were very like self-reliant and they relied on each other as well, like a safety in numbers feeling, you know, and also, yeah, sorry. I keep going. Quiet. I was just going to say, uh, and accepting a ride from a police officer, like would have seemed safe to most people at any time. Yeah, exactly. Like whether or not you're a hitchhiker, whether or not you're, you're like, oh, here come the cops. Oh, at least he's just going to give me a ride home. And he's not, he's, he's worried about me sort of like as someone who would protect me, a father figure, like, uh, yes, his duty, like his, he's here to protect you. Yeah. And so there's, there's just something so sick about that. But yeah. So the idea that two girls get a ride home from an officer who's like, Hey, you're not supposed to hitchhike here. I know it's common. You're not in trouble. Like, of course they took a ride. I mean, these girls have hitchhiked all over the country with strangers. Like this is going to be the safest option. Of course. So, um, felt like a no brainer. And so they agreed to meet Gerard the next morning so he and Gerard Schaefer, let me tell you a little bit about this motherfucker. He was born in Wisconsin in 19. What is with Wisconsin though? Nothing to do. I don't know. I don't know. I think it's got to be something in the, in the water. Yeah. Something in the water, Wisconsin water. Yeah. All the cheese curds over there. Yeah. All that beer where they're drinking. I don't know what's in that. Um, okay. So from Wisconsin, he was born in 1946. Uh, Doris was a stay at home. His mom, was a stay at home mother and his dad, Gerard senior was a traveling salesman whose work kind of moved them around the country throughout his childhood. They moved from Wisconsin to Tennessee, then to Atlanta. And in the night and in 1960, the Schaefer's relocated a final time to Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And that's where Gerard would attend high school. Um, he later in life described his childhood as unstable and unhappy. Um, his father had alcoholism and he said his father was very unaffectionate and detached. Um, uh, he did have one bond with his father. father which as cliche as this is it was hunting and fishing um and so that's kind of where it feels like wisconsin feels like right then bonding in wisconsin uh yep and they you know that's where he proved himself right and his dad uh gave him a compliment at one point that he was even a beautiful shot oh so that's about as far as the affection went um when gerard senior was away gerard his son went out on his own and people appreciated that he had a natural confidence alone in the outdoors but um they didn't quite know what he was doing out there a neighbor and friend named gary uh did notice however that when gerard was out enjoying nature he seemed to enjoy killing animals for no reason uh one of his favorite pastimes was just killing animals that he wouldn't eat like songbirds land crab like he just liked to kill things just like ding ding ding you know i know and i love that it's like his friend said this and i'm like you've got an interesting friendship his friend said he loved to casually murder living creatures right it's like oh okay charming um so gerard senior described his son as i said as a beautiful shot and that's about as far as their affection went um gary thought of gerard as a collector who was very proud to own and use his guns and so like already kind of starting off on a very violent in a very like you know their only hunting and and that's it yeah um as a 14 year old in florida gerard got along with other boys his age they would fish drink date brag about their supposed like dates or whatever um he played high school sports and his classmates had mixed opinions about him so like some people were like he's fine and most people were like he was a fucking creep like yeah yeah okay that does make you feel better that at least people in his childhood can confirm because the other guy who's like oh yeah he just killed a bunch of animals for fun haha and it's like i didn't see this coming like is anybody looking and seeing and saying something you know aren't we supposed to see and say something yes exactly so okay i'm glad yeah glad some people noticed barbara did and barbara later described him as just that a creep she said he was never the kind of person i wanted to know i can't remember him being friends babs you guys on it she's got to spill the tea she had the her perception was on oh she's like i've got the gift of discernment don't fuck around i'll get the yearbook out right now and we can get through it okay he was never the kind of person i wanted to know i can't remember him being friends with any of the guys he was always on the outside looking in as a matter of fact the only thing i really remember is that i always had to tuck my skirt under my legs because he would practically stand on his head to look up a girl's skirt jesus christ so if he was like that with people he didn't even really know imagine the people he felt comfortable with to like try to like see how far he could push it ding dong exactly and barbara was not babs was not alone in this opinion um and i will say he went by john so sometimes the quotes will say john but that was his middle name and so um if it's quoted as john that's why uh he did seem well liked by other classmates though probably ones that you know just appreciated the surface level stuff of what he brought to the table you know and maybe maybe that's it um but most people remembered him as pretty unremarkable like he didn't have like super close friendships or anything like that um after high school he really struggled through college he took like tons of college credit hours i mean it says 28 credit hours i'm like i don't remember what that means but i'm sure it's a lot i think it's like i think every class is three credits so it's probably like god or eight credit three credits so it's insane and then he would drop several so that he could pass the rest like he was just like constantly taking stuff on he struggled with stress well yeah wouldn't you know it uh and at one point he even wrote a suicide note that actually got him evaluated by a psychiatrist and i guess evaluated and nothing more because that's the end of that uh in 1968 he married another a fellow student martha fogg but they divorced pretty quickly after that and the gerard began an internship as a social studies teacher but was forced to withdraw um from the program when parents started complaining about him and said he was being a creep with the odd with the fucking students i mean like i am fascinated by um not that i know any but i am fascinated and would love to ask questions i never would but in a perfect world i would love to ask questions on someone who's been married to someone like that where it's like or even ask the serial killer himself i'm like how did you marry someone and not get the urge with them or like did you get the urge with them and then you should get out on other people or like you should watch some of those like um netflix ones where they talk to murderers i should i really should because they really do explain those things you know what's like one of the main answers is like i mean i think a lot of times it's like oh it's either a marriage of like convenience or we're just having sex so let's get married or i don't know i don't think i don't think it's even really that deep a lot of times or okay it's to maintain a facade a lot of times i think um a facade of a happy family right or like just not even a happy family a normal any semblance of normalcy you know so poor the poor spouses of those people who it's like i he could have hurt me at any fucking oh yeah to learn i mean the btk one is one of the most disturbing especially when you hear from the children who are like you know he was doing this to other children yeah it's yeah yeah so they're and btk has talked about all that too so yeah you can definitely find find the content you seek him don't worry i certainly could i know and can i tell you something you said in a perfect world that means your perfect world already this is my perfect world isn't that beautiful yeah okay uh and that's on manifesting okay so uh he got married and divorced probably because she was like wait this guy's a creep i don't know but i imagine it didn't help and parents had complained he didn't cooperate with his supervisors and then guess what the following year he was accepted back into the teaching internship program with new supervisors it's like a priest when they just move them around you know i mean truly it's just like why are and you have to assume he wants this kind of job on purpose right exactly like why else are you pushing for this yuck um so he began this uh thing again in 1970 march of 1970 with new supervisors in may two months later booted again for poor performance for defensiveness to any criticism um among many general concerns that he didn't know anything about the subject he was teaching so he really was purely there just to be near a bunch of vulnerable girls i guess so i guess okay he's got one one track mind i guess yeah i guess so with no teaching career ahead of him he took a job as a security guard in 1971 where he met 19 year old theresa dean who was a secretary and six years uh his junior she fell for him they got married later that year gerard lied about his work history in an application to train as a police officer i i am really extra super disturbed even more than him being a teacher i'm more disturbed about him being a police officer because you know i mean i was just thinking back to the day when i was in high school and i was like oh my god i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry i'm so sorry he just made that up yeah exactly what if they said like oh no we don't need a ride we'll find our way back then he could have gotten aggressive and been like no you're not supposed to be here i'm arresting you yeah or he could have i mean yeah well you remember who else was a cop golden state killer yeah you're on i uh it's it's just to know that he's only seeking out jobs where he has authority over somebody you're on i uh it's it's just to know that he's only seeking out jobs where he has authority over is so scary because then if they say no he could then he has a plausible whatever to oh and he does anyway yeah don't worry we'll get there oh okay oh so you know the serial killer handbook i see okay yeah i yeah i've heard enough about these i think security guard police officer uh working with vulnerable populations i mean you know fucking writes itself um so she's 19 she falls for him they get married uh he dies about his work history in an application to train as a police officer and they never questioned it and so he became a patrolman and he was known to be a stickler for traffic violations and he insisted that he was passionate about keeping the roads safe but in reality gerard wouldn't you know pulled over women drivers far more often than men and his department began receiving complaints that he was harassing the women he pulled over oh good yeah some sources say asked women out during traffic stops others say that he used women's license plate numbers to look them up and then call them and ask them on dates okay yeah yeah oh my god insane insane like not even like pretending to be discreet about this not even a layer of shame no awareness of fucking no shame also like i i don't have these bones in my body but if you're trying to like lure someone in or like get them to feel like they can trust you like you're not going to be able to trust them you're not going to be able to trust them you have to at least be able to read the room on like how to not be such a fucking weirdo like from the beginning you know yeah it did right it's like it's like were any of those women i mean maybe he thought he was charming them and then he's like wow i was so taken by you that like i called you and i mean in some people's minds maybe that's romantic right like oh that cute cop like was so smitten by me you know you can you never know what someone feels like something like grandma would tell you about how romantic grandpa is and it's like oh grandpa sounds a little fucked up yeah but like you know if who knows like maybe that works on someone i don't know but he got enough complaints sent in that they were like um yo you can't do that so anyway uh he did it anyway and he used this position to harass women pretty consistently he didn't stop once again not listening to supervisors and was fired six months into the job so according to fun fact christina i'm throwing it i've been listening i wasn't even like gonna warn you i'm just telling you now fun ready according to cnbc nearly half of hiring managers say a candidate's enthusiasm about the job is the most important factor when considering them for a role that makes total sense because we had people applying who then said i don't believe in ghosts and we were like what's the opposite of enthusiasm because it's that well if you need to hire for your business um how can you separate the candidates who are really excited about your opportunity uh from the ones that are just kind of meh well zip recruiter is there for you they are going to find the right people with the right enthusiasm who do believe in ghosts yes unless your like whole job is like ghost skepticism then maybe you don't want them but bring them over here yeah unless you're seeking that particular role or whatever you know like they'll cater to you but we had very specific needs we were looking for and eva of course ended up matching those zip recruiter has a new feature that quickly lets you see the most interested qualified candidates first so you meet the right people faster and now you can try it for free at zip recruiter.com slash drink zip recruiter's new feature puts the most interested qualified candidates at the top of your list so instead of number three eva would have probably number one but you know what we live and we learn zip recruiter okay you can't be perfect every second use zip recruiter and find enthusiastic talent fast four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day can confirm and now you can try it for free at zip recruiter.com slash drink that's zip recruiter.com slash drink meet your match on zip recruiter so he forged a letter of accolade okay and got a new job as a deputy with the martin county sheriff's department cool so cool at roughly 9 30 in the morning on july 22nd gerard picked up nancy and sue in his deputy vehicle not in uniform though he told them that some days he was assigned to wear plain clothes and only do observations that's all he's just like patrolling you know okay i don't know is that true i feel like no of course not no okay that doesn't feel believable at all i'm just here to show two young teenage girls around town that's my job no i'm gonna observe you yeah yucko okay um so he offered to show them this beautiful old spanish fort on an island yeah yeah yeah remember they're they're here to see so these are the two girls that he said he's gonna show them the town right and he's like there's this really cool island and there's this beautiful old spanish fort because you know it's florida like the history um on hutchinson island and they're like sure yeah let's go to the let's go to the this old fort as they stood by the river gerard's relaxed demeanor suddenly shifted he became very serious and he asked them if they knew anything about drugs in the area and sue and nancy were like uh no like no of course not we're literally here with a police officer to look at tourist stops like you took us here yeah no we don't want do you know anything about drugs why do you want to know like they were like what the fuck so apropos of nothing gerard told him i'm telling you m there's no way i can prepare you for this except to say apropos of nothing gerard told them he could dig a hole and bury them in it i mean unfortunately i smelled that from a mile away but right i mean as soon as you're asking about you know anything whatever their answer is you now can say like well i don't believe you or whatever it is you know well i'm i'm so happy to hear that because you're right because he told them there would be no crime without a body but instead of being afraid they were irritated and they said it's too hot i wish i had the fucking audacity of a kid that age i i these 1970s i miss just being annoyed i just miss being annoyed i just can't with this guy you know i like how you just i cut you off there but you did say that it's just too hot and like they're just too hot they're like it's too hot and we're too sweaty for this right now and that alone honestly if something bad were to happen to me i'd be like could it happen on a day on any other day fucking hot please yes it's fucking florida and we're on an island i am assuming mosquitoes are swarming this fucking me in the cold or something yeah this fucking guy who is a police officer so they're not like that afraid but they're also like what is your fucking deal guy like well also if he's maybe because he wasn't in uniform maybe he didn't have like a a visible firearm on him so he felt less true maybe it's less threatening and they're like what the fuck is up with this loser like maybe they can still take him if it's just the two of them exactly and they've i mean they've seen and is the mosquito back it is he heard me talk about oh my god it's haunting uh but yeah they i mean they had they were like very trained in the art of keeping themselves safe right and like keeping each other safe and so they were not afraid they were irritated and sweaty and hot and they wanted to go to the beach and we're like what the fuck okay so gerard became agitated and he said he was placing them both under arrest yep i mean immediately well the second you're asking the second that you once they're i mean i'm just saying the obvious at this point but you're right i'm not but you're right like jesus christ of course and so he gets to the beach and he's like i'm not surprised he's like i'm not surprised he's like i'm not he gets out he handcuffs them and then he sits back in the cruiser then he asked them if they know anything about white slavery oh okay it's escalating quite fast it's getting out out of it's getting out of hand i almost feel like that when he first arrested them or handcuffed them i feel like they were like giggling like oh this is so funny they were probably like what is what is with this guy isn't he like trying to like be friends with them and it's like oh he's like get and like he's clearly trying to play the like you better listen to your elders like i'm a cop and you should listen to me and they're like i would have thought he was kidding at first then been like oh my fucking god like what i would the immediate panic would have kicked in quickly so they're a little bit like confused like you're saying like they're like what the fuck is going on are we like is this a bit is this not a bit right um unfortunately it's not a bit and he asks if they know about white slavery and then he starts discussing methods of forcing the women into human trafficking and they're still not afraid they're just more confused and like fed up and so they stopped talking to him i love that they're like actually silent treatment time they literally just stopped responding and he got so they gray rocked him and he got so fucking mad okay so they're gray rocking him um gerard gets out of the cruiser and he gets some ropes and sheets out from the trunk he tears gags from the sheet he ties them around their mouths i mean they're already not talking to you but whatever right right right like okay go off king okay so he made sue sit on the ground so he could tie her legs together um he then handcuffed uh he then made them aware that he was armed um after handcuffing them so at this point they don't know what else to do um nancy at this point realized that she was armed and she was going to do what she was supposed to do and she was going to do what she was supposed to do um nancy at this point realized that she was going to do what she was supposed to do and she was going to do what she was supposed to do and she was going to do what she was supposed to do and she was going to do what she was supposed to do she could have run she could run away but she doesn't want to leave her friend i can't i'm not leaving sue yeah yeah so she stays gerard told sue that if she tried to escape he would kill nancy and then find her and kill her too and she's like i ain't going nowhere so he leaves sue tied up on the ground forces nancy to follow him to a tree um in the river uh the river was a body of water that cut hutchinson island from the mainland and at low tide there would be these like enormous tree root systems that came up visible above the water and so nancy was able to run away so gerard made nancy climb onto the roots then tied her legs and tied a noose around her neck oh my fucking god i know so that if she even slipped on the on the slick branches of the slick root system don't think about running away even if you accidentally run away it'll yeah hang it'll hang oh my god horrifying so he looped that over a tree branch tied it to another branch behind her and if she slipped off the wet roots she'd be hanged so she is trapped in this position gerard gerard pinched her butt threatened to rape her and then left her there oh god nancy managed now listen to this managed to maneuver her way out of the gag first then twist her head to chew on the knot of the noose she's so powerful it could not come undone in her mouth but when she dared to lean back slightly even with like this fucking terrifying situation she felt the point where the rope was tied to another branch and because she had been chewing on that part the other part of the rope it had been loosened so she with the handcuff ties was able to reach that knot and untie it with her literally are you kidding me yeah like literally MacGyver right MacGalver MacGalver I think I think I've tried that joke before and it did not land okay lands here that's thank you thank you she I love all the laughter I heard okay she that's how I know it was a good joke I was no more clever I was just like that's good yeah it's like when blaze got a guy it's like when blaze goes that's funny and I'm like is it I did truly I was on your side is it though thank you I do appreciate it I do I can tell I do appreciate it so she's able to like pull her hands out uh and unbound her legs but of course she still has handcuffs on like police handcuffs so she can't get her uh handcuffs off so she sneaks away first to hide the fucking ropes because she's like if Gerard comes back at least he won't know where the ropes are and can't tie me back up I'm like this girl's fucking smart like she's on it she's like at least he can't hang me again which like maybe that's also survival instincts like oh let me put this as far away from me as possible but either way like she gets rid of that she saw his car was still parked there so she knows he's like in the fucking vicinity and probably watching her that's the scary part either watching her or she doesn't know what he's doing with sue her best friend either so it's like fucking terrifying uh yeah he could come back any second he could be watching her right now um she knew she couldn't fight him with her hands in handcuffs so she traveled through the river and she followed it because she knew it would lead to the highway at one point she's fucking incredible I know and at one point she heard someone calling her name and she almost responded but then was like oh Gerard might be forcing sue to call for me oh my god she's so lure me to lure me back and I need to get her to safety before I've I mean what the fuck talk about I mean and like in some ways like if I were sue right now I'd be like where the fuck are you I'd be like get over here but at the same time I'd be like she's on her way to get help she's no I'd be like if you're screaming the name you're like don't fucking don't listen to me I'm putting a thought to do that I would have been I would have I would be like yoohoo I'm right here oh my god I know I know terrible so she did not respond um she saw cars like eventually she kept going the river got really deep um and she had to swim without using her hands and like I hope she didn't get swept into anything you know um but she kicked she floated sideways and she really had to relax her body to stay afloat which was also like obviously in the most stressful time of her life to relax your body is like what the fuck um so the section of the river was wide and she could actually see cars ahead but they were so far away like they were just like small on the horizon so there's no way they could see her but she finally made it to shore and she remained in knee-deep water because she was too exhausted to like climb out of the water at this point and she just started screaming at passing cars and her feet were bloody from all the shells she'd been stung twice by jellyfish and later told a newspaper I got stung by two jellyfish while swimming that's not very much fun girl once is enough with my hands untied without someone killing my friend in Barbados on an all expenses paid vacation yeah right like right candles vacation package totally totally I that's I can't even it's just absurd I mean I guess when you're in you have so much adrenaline you can't even fucking feel I know and I think that's what happens in these scenarios it's like you're just instincts and you're you're something turns on and you're like in go mode survival mode it's amazing um so sheriff Robert Lewis Crowder uh Gerard's boss pulls over in front of her and the reason he's there is because he's out looking for Nancy and Sue why is he out looking for Nancy and Sue because Gerard had called in to the police station and admitted his own crime what yeah was it because I'll maybe did he realize that she was missing and was like oh fuck I better tell all myself uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh wow he was like well maybe I'll I'll have a better shot if I own up to it versus getting told on you're gonna be mad so he calls and says I've done something foolish you're going to be mad at me he told a story to Crowder that what happened is he wanted to teach them the dangers of hitchhiking oh shut the fuck up so he was just he was just like trying to scare them straight you know like he was trying to it was a bit it was a silly joke but they took it too seriously of the world like these are vulnerable women and I don't want them to just be out there let's pretend he's telling the truth let's pretend for a second he's telling the truth he's telling the truth he's telling the truth he still committed crimes by hanging her in a fucking tree and holding them at gunpoint and threatening rape like he said she said he said she said runaway teen I'd be like uh here I'm opening my mouth right now to get a sample of all the rope fibers I had to chew off myself fucking point well don't even worry about it because of course they find her on the side of the road and like it's obvious she's fucking been through it okay like nobody's right nobody's like oh he did it he did something great um they found them they found first of all a truck driver had found sue first and she was handcuffed alone and screaming for help as he drove by and the truck driver and sue called the sheriff department requested to speak to the sheriff directly none of the deputies and when Crowder found Nancy he told her sue was alive and as he uncuffed her and wrapped her in a blanket she asked what's going on he said guess one bad apple in the bunch I think everyone just made that sound with me um okay it was a communal uh mantra I like I can't even get into the spiel about bad apples right now but okay please and here's where it just gets worse sheriff Crowder fired Gerard and of course he did because he's a good guy and he did the right thing he fired the man and he requested he receive a psychiatric evaluation but that never happened and he just moved right on what a fucking asshole here's what Crowder later said I don't think anyone recognized the potential seriousness of what he had done huh I think everyone but you babe what the fuck are you talking about piece of shit in the end Gerard accepted a deal and was charged with one count of assault and was sentenced to six months in prison this is not the end of the story it's no okay okay I was like you're kidding okay no it just keeps going the next spring in April 1973 men collecting aluminum cans in a Florida swamp were horrified to discover human remains in what appeared to be a shallow grave now this site was less than 10 miles from the riverside where Gerard had abducted Nancy and Sue the summer before um at least one of these victims had been bound and tied to a tree so the Florida heat and wildlife had impacted the condition of the remains but investigators were able to use clothing and dental records to identify the remains as belonging belonging to 17 year old Sue and Gerard and Gerard had been found to be the victims of a serial murder case in a Florida swamp Susan Place and 16 year old Georgia Jessup the two girls that we started the story off with who met and went to the beach Colorado but also playing guitar on the beach yeah and here they are found the following year uh there remains one like I said had been tied to the tree so essentially we know that's what he was planning to do was to kill obviously the other other two and when one got away you know Sue escaped as well I'm honestly surprised I'm surprised that he even tried to do that with two girls versus one like just like like I wonder I don't know I would think that like if this is your quote first time doing this like when oh it wasn't okay got it oh don't worry it wasn't oh don't worry it wasn't remember he was killing animals at 10 or whatever yeah okay so yep one bad apple in the bunch um so now these remains are found um and Susan's parents Lucille and Ira Place had already suspected that this fucking creep Jerry who was like in her their daughter's bedroom and was like it's fine mrs whatever we're just going to the beach like she already suspected this fucking guy I remember she wrote down his license plate so they had managed to solve the license plate mistake that the police said was a mystery right because they couldn't figure out how the fuck to find a license plate in a different county so they figured out that it was a mystery and they figured out that and we're like oh it's just from a different county and Jerry Shepard is actually a guy named Gerard Schaefer and he was apparently serving a sentence for abducting two women so they've already found this all out before the remains were even found and he had committed that several months before he'd appeared in their daughter's bedroom and said hey we're just going to be out for a while and then they never saw their daughter again so they already knew like this fucking guy killed our daughter most likely and you know at first the timeline didn't make sense because it was serving a sentence but what had happened is that he had actually uh his beautiful wife Teresa who just was in love with this guy for some fucking reason vouched for him so there's another answer for you and said you know gave an alibi right and made bail for him and he was released for several months so that was just not in the record so they didn't realize and on that release is when he killed their daughter okay so as the pieces began to fall into place investigators filed a warrant to search Gerard's home what a great idea Lieutenant Chuck Hemp of the Oakland Park Police Department later said that the house was fairly large and for a while they didn't find much of interest until they flipped through one of his pornography magazines and a two page document fell out of the pages that described kidnapping, torturing and murdering women. It was just one piece of many writings Gerard had done on the subject of harming women. He wrote that there would be plenty of opportunities to choose women to abduct from among many seasonal visitors to Florida. So he just loved like the tourist aspect of being able to. I mean, it is the easiest. It's like people that are already away and out of town. There are people and if they go missing, especially in the 70s, you're not like on fine. My, you know, I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly. So he wrote about different methods to humiliate, rape, torture and mutilate women. And to answer your other question, he wrote that murdering women in pairs was ideal for him because, according to him, women let their guards down when they traveled together. Oh. OK, I don't know if that's really true. I mean, I think it kind of was. Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think it depends, but I think like safety in numbers. I mean, if your friend is with you and you're both like really self-reliant and tough and you're like, sure, we've seen. A creep before, you know. Right. And before you know it, this guy's like completely disarmed you and been like, and suddenly you're. Yeah, I think I think I think he unfortunately knew knew what he was doing. Yeah, so that's all the stuff they found in his writings. But of course, he later maintained that this was all fiction and he they couldn't convict him just based on these documents. But in a closet, detectives discovered something they could convict him with. It was an antique. Trunk filled with trophies. OK, trophies from his victims. There were personal items such as planners and jewelry. There were teeth with gold fillings. God, he was eventually charged with first degree murder for the killings of Susan Place and Georgia Jessup. He pleaded not guilty and was extremely smug throughout the entire trial, thinking he was literally not going to be found guilty. But also like he had been treated so leniently with everything. It's not a surprise. Like at this point, he probably would just. Get off, you know, right. I mean, it would be hard for him to believe that he could get off. Right. Exactly. Like it in his own pattern of behavior. He's gotten away with it many, many times. Have you ever watched those videos online of like the like in courtrooms when like someone who's horrible and like it's clear like needs to be put away is acting really smug towards the. Oh, I can't stand. And then the judge like really lays it out and like this rates. Yeah. It's like they took a plea to took a plea deal and then the judge is like, I'm actually rescinding the plea. I'm deciding that there's no plea deal. You're going to jail for the rest of your fucking life. Yeah. Piece of shit. Yeah. I love those videos where like you just see someone smug, get fucking humbled. I know. Just like get that. Get that fucking grin off your face. Yeah. Yeah. So they discover this stuff. He says, oh, I'm not guilty. Super smug in one surviving footage of an interview. He smiled as he said, I didn't do it. I don't think the state has proved I did it in any way. And the testimony of my witnesses has counteracted the testimony of the other witnesses. So he really just didn't think it was going to happen. What an asshole. What an asshole. He was, thank God, convicted for the murders of Susan and Georgia, but the death penalty shockingly was not legal in Florida at the time. So the prosecution sought a two sentences of life in prison and they did win this request, but he was stabbed to death in prison by another incarcerated man. On December 3rd of 1995. So how long was he in before he. Before he died. Great question. Because I'm always so over it. Every time I watch like the law and order episodes, I know that's not, that's very different than this, but that's my only experience with it is when like someone who deserves to go to jail for the rest of their life, like ends up quote, getting away with it by dying. Like the day of going into jail. I know it always happens. It's like so anticlimactic. Or like has a heart attack immediately. And it's like, oh, come on. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe that's awful of me that I want. I don't know. I think someone's waiting. Someone's waiting. Someone's waiting for him. How long was, did we know how long he was there? Um, I don't know. I believe probably 15, 20 years. Okay. So it wasn't like. Something around there. Immediately at least. No, I believe, um, I believe he was there for like over a decade. I don't have the exact date, but it was, he was in there for a while. Um, now I do want to add, there's like a last unfortunate, like part to this. Yeah. Yeah. It gets worse. I know. It's just like, of course it gets worse. Um, okay. So he is convicted, uh, sentenced to two sentences of life in prison. Gerard is stabbed to death in 1995. He was charged for those two murders, but, and here's the kind of like add on to this. He is suspected to have killed between 11 and 28 women. Wow. In 1966. And I'm just going to mention a few here because in 1966, 2018. I'm going to say it again. I have enough proof to decide that for myself. I've decided for myself also. Correct. Thank you. Despite performing acts of extreme ingenuity, bravery, and physical strength, Nancy just said she felt lucky about escaping the whole thing. And I imagine in that state, you're probably dissociated and like just surviving, but you know, you deserve, she deserves all the props and support. Yeah. Blown away. Very proud of her. I mean, that's, that's, that's huge to survive something like that. So that's that. And now I have to go lift weights. At least you've got like, you're all like, you've got a reason to be angry and you know, I know she's going to be like, what's this weird vibe you've brought to the table today? Let me tell you. Yeah. Let me tell you. Oi, well, at least someone survived. I don't fucking know. I don't know how to end that. That's great. That's great. Sorry. Great. Sorry for her. Yeah. I'm happy that they survived and I'm sorry about all the horrible stuff that happened. And, um, thanks for listening to our podcast. Sorry if we bum you out. We love you a lot though. We do. And, uh, hopefully, uh, everyone's, everyone's having a good, whenever this comes out, hope you're having a good one of those, a good week of a month. And, um, we'll, we'll see you next time to horrify you with even worse. Is that a good way to end this? I think it's perfect. Okay. And that's why we drink. Should she say that about the kisses? Is that weird? She doesn't care. She presses send. This is the love story of real hinge couple, Daniel and Roisin written and read by me, Rufy Thorpe. Listen to the free audio book now. Shop exclusive merch and enjoy themed food and drinks. Beat the heat. Play, eat and shop on repeat at Netflix house at Galleria Dallas. On any journey using Uber, it helps to know you're getting into the right car. Pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride. Before the trip begins, your app gives you a unique pin. Just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start. Hey, what's your pin? Mm-hmm, 2538. That way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app.