E487 A Non-Squatting Sasquatch and Skreeonk Facts (featuring Guest Host Steven Ray Morris)

I've told you guys before that I got Alison, well, I tried to surprise Alison with this cobblestone fireplace for the house, and I got it from Wayfair. It's very, very cute, very witchy, very spooky. I feel like underneath the right thick ceiling beams, real or fake. It would look incredible. And by the way, those beams were also on Wayfair. But now it has been moved into what will be the spook easy of our house. And I'm not allowed to see what they're doing in there. Alison and her parents have been working on that day in and day out. And I know that the fireplace has become like the centerpiece that they're working the whole thing around. So I'm very excited to see how it turns out. Wish me luck. I'm hoping it's going to look as spooky as promised. I will take pictures when I finally can see what's going on. All I know is that that fireplace became the focal point of the entire room. So if you would like your own focal point, whether that's a fireplace or a couch or a table or whatever your thing is, you can head over to Wayfair and transform your space with pieces that hold up to real life. Join Wayfair rewards today and get 5% back on every purchase and head to Wayfair.com or shop the Wayfair app for all things home. That's w-a-y-f-a-r.com. Wayfair every style every home. Today's episode is sponsored by the ASPCA pet health insurance program as a frequent goer of the dog park. I have seen some scary things happen to the dog park, luckily not to my dog, although very recently we had our first scare he ends up stepping on a bee and got stung. But I was absolutely panicked as a first time dog parent who has absolutely infantilized my little puppy dog in a moment like that you really are thankful that you have your pet insurance. 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This is a paid advertisement insurance is underwritten by either independence American insurance company or United States fire insurance company and produced by PTZ insurance agency limited the ASPCA is not insurer and is not engaged in the business of insurance. When we moved into this house, I had one non-negotiable with Allison where I was like we cannot have rugs on the floor because I'm so tired of them getting dirty and like not being able to wash them the whole time we've lived here, it's just hard with everywhere. Now I have discovered a tumble rugs and yes, oh my god, like it's so nice to have my house actually look like things are getting put together like they're being completed. My mom used to power wash like take a power washer and power wash my rugs because it was I was like I don't know how else to do this and you or pace you don't pay somebody to do it. And with the I have one I've had one for a long time actually in in my entryway and to toss it in the wash and then it's like oh you got my mom was you got a new rug and I was like no it was just a very muddy week. They're spill proof they are machine washable and it's especially nice because I knew once we got a dog I knew we would get a dog that I was like I just don't even want to have to think about like on top of sweeping vacuuming it just was not something I wanted to do. There's so many nice styles over there it's so beautiful it's very very wonderful so yeah machine washable rugs made better for a limited time only our listeners get 10% off plus reshipping at tumble living dot com slash drink. That's t-u-m-b-l-e living dot com forward slash drink after you purchase they will ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Hello everybody you might be wondering what's going on I am in Steven Ray Morris's house. Unfortunately Christine cannot be here this week and so Steven decided that he would be stepping in by decided I mean I kind of forced him I said please come right now and I was going to record in our usual way over the Internet even though we're neighbors and then that Internet wasn't working so I went to a hotel so I could use their Internet that Internet wasn't working here is evidence of that. Somewhere hopefully we can put a little pull a little screen tab of us once recording this but then since that Internet was so bad we're trying for a third time he said just come over. So now we're here and I'm all snuggled up on on in his living room thank you so much for hosting us as I host you welcome to you Ray Morris. Hello thank you for doing this with me I'm very excited. We're getting cozy you've got a blanket. Yes my three cats are somewhere. They're somewhere Steven even said oh do you only put the cats away and I went please keep them out because I know we got a lot of cat lovers who listen so I did make you do this the last time but would you please tell people about your kiddies because they're brand new to the family. No I'm very lucky I lost my cat penalty lane of 18 years in November and it's just one of those of course they're going to start running around. That's fine if you hear any rumbles come upon the scene no I you know you never know when you're ready for another pet but my friend Christine had rescued these two black cats and I was like I love black cats you know they're harder to adopt all that stuff so I was like I'll meet them right. And then their mom was there as well and I just said you know what let's take them all so from zero to one to three cats yes you said yeah no and it's the thing yeah so I have three cats bitty bitty bum bum is the mom and after the Salina song love it and then I have Ripley who's the boy he's the large black cat he's the special boy and then I have Wendy who's the goblin princess who I think is the one with the swishytale over there right now playing she looks like she's in hunt mode which I love. Yes and my favorite fact about all this cats is that out of all three of them combined they have one tooth. Yes Wendy has one tooth which is why her tongue sticks out all the times very precious eternal blip eternal blip yeah I love that yeah and I'm just so grateful for you. It was it's been such an embarrassing day between like hey the internet's not working hey the internet is not working again so I really I thank you so much for. Of course yeah we did we did our c Jurassic right episode together here in this living room it was one of the last recordings I did before I adopted these cats and Wendy and bitty bitty bum bum are in full Lorelai and Rory mode here Gilmore I call them the Gilmore girls when they're fighting. It's the mom and daughter fighting no they I yes I was here last time probably when you're last silent episodes I guess before they were running around but yeah. This is a wonderful time to shout out your podcast e Jurassic right yes tell tell the world what you'd like them to know about that. They are they they love to show off it's great no see Jurassic right it started off as Jurassic Park podcast but then I was thinking. Because we after our ASL class of the day I like the idea of. See Jurassic right is essentially like any guest that come comes on it's like what is their Jurassic Park yeah I love that so I've interviewed scientists I've interviewed therapists musicians other podcasters people in the Jurassic Park movies and me. You started with scientists and we got. Let's talk about there's one of them. We talked about back to the future in theme parks and stuff yeah I did really like we we kind of came together on the. Not together but I was with you when you came up with the concept like what's your Jurassic Park yeah yeah I love that it was it was very nice because I remember when Stephen asked me be on his episode please go listen to it. I was like oh man it's a dinosaur podcast what am I going to talk about it turned into kind of just like a fandom geek fast yeah yeah that's really yeah the podcast is basically kind of split between those two lines of like. Science stuff and dinosaur stuff and then also like movies pop culture geeky stuff yes and then there's like a little lane there where there's like Stephen lower related things that I can fit in there but yeah. So Stephen is trying the favor and he's he's coming on to our show I very excited a lot I'm you've said the same on your end but a lot of people who follow my social media are very excited that we have become friends where we also did ASL together so today's gap hour we're going to teach you a little ASL. And but no people are very stoked that you know we've got a little thing going on so I'm glad that you're here I of course even already knows the topic because we got that far in the last recording. Dispoilers I did ask even if you wanted a ghost and alien are cryptid he said cryptid. I did and I did pick a local cryptid for him because he was born and raised or just raised in Anaheim. I was born and raised in Anaheim so you know Orange County was born and raised at Disneyland Mickey smart dad. Yeah we we talked in the last you'll never know now but we did talk about us even your first job was a doesn't my first ever job when I was 17 was at Disneyland and yeah very few people can really support. I mean I basically worked at Costco the Costco pizza like that's what does need that's what pizza port essentially is yes it's very good but it is just like pizza you know it's not as like themed as other parts of Disneyland but I did like being in tomorrow land and I loved being below space mountain that was really fun I can't imagine having like a work break like like some people are just like having a cigarette in tomorrow land instead of a back alley. Yes Pluto was having a cigarette with her head off her yeah oh that's shot I don't know why that's shocking to me too that's just a shocking as the cigarette. Oh wow okay well Pluto's having a good time I know it's not the same Pluto anymore but one can dream yeah so the cryptid I picked for you was a local to Anaheim. and it was the Buena Park Monster, although one of the newspapers I read did say Buena foot instead of big foot. So, we got about one bullet in, so that actually, Stephen is really gonna be learning about this in real time. And you were not familiar with this question. - No, yeah, I mean, Buena Park is near Nottsbury Farm, where I had my winter formal in high school, which doesn't, I feel like you having a winter formal out of theme park doesn't make sense, because you're riding roller coasters in a tux, in a dress. - Oh, I didn't think about that. - Yeah, it was kind of a weird thing. Like, I remember because, you know, ill-fitting suit at 17, or, yeah, I think 16 or 17, like my Nokia flip phone, like flew out of my pocket on the roller coaster. Like, it was a bit of a disaster. - It didn't occur to me that people were actually in glam. - No, no, it was winter formal. Like, I feel like it should have either been, like, Sadie Hawkins or, like, homecoming. - That's kind of familiar with, I was very lucky to go to a premiere at Disney. - Oh, cool. - It was for the haunted mansion. - Oh, nice. - And so, one of the cool things about that was, you had to actually ride the haunted mansion ride, and when you got to the other side, that was where the movie began. You had to go, you had to ride the ride to get to the movie. - Whoa, that's cool. - I thought it was so smart, because then you, like, definitely knew all the references when you watched the movie, 'cause you just saw the ride. - You were absorbing it. - You were absorbing it, but I, we also had to dress up for that. It was a movie premiere, and I was like, are people gonna go ride rides afterwards in this as, like, in heels? I thought that was so odd, but anyway, I did not. I did, like, one ride, and I was like, let's get out of here. Okay. So, when a park monster, I, the only fun fact, I told you was that at Knott's Berry Farm, nearby where this monster was seen, a few years later, had a ride come out called Bigfoot Rapids, and a lot of people thought that that was inspired by the sightings a few years before. But, unfortunately, I'm here to tell you, that's not true. They just picked Bigfoot, I guess. - It's a great ride. You get wet, you know? - It's one of those, like, is it a log flume, or is it, like, when you sit in the circle and go on a big, and you go into the waterfalls? - Yeah. - Haven't ridden it. Is it still there? - I don't know. That's a good question. I feel like my legions have mostly been split between Disneyland and Universal Studios. - I understand. - And I just really, I don't think I've been back to Knott's Berry Farm since high school. - Get out, not even for Halloween. They have a big Halloween thing out there. - Maybe one year did the Halloween thing, but fun. - I just don't, I guess I'm not into boys in Berry. - I went to the boys in Berry Festival this year, on principle. - So it's worth it. So I should go. - If you're hungry, it's a 10 out of 10. - Okay, okay. Okay, so we start in 1982. This is where the internet cut out last time. (bell dinging) - Ding dong, who's that? Oh, it's your ringtone on your mint mobile phone. - Oh my God, that would give me a panic attack. And my dog would bark every single time. How annoying. - Ding dong, well, hey, ding dong, one more time. Did you know that mint mobile? They took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with premium wireless for a $15 a month. And you can even bring your current phone in your number over, ding dong. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels like a catch like $15 a month. Okay, but for what, like just to get in the door and it's like, no, no, that's actually the cost. And not to name names. I literally won't name names 'cause I'm legally not allowed to. But there are other providers that have not really been so transparent. Bring your current phone and your number. Choose from three, six or 12 month plans with mint mobile and say goodbye to a monthly bill. Ditch over price wireless with mint mobile. It is super easy. - Yeah, so to get your new wireless plan for just $15 a month, go to mintmobile.com/atwd. That's mintmobile.com/atwd. Cut your wireless bill to $15 a month at mintmobile.com/atwd. That's it, there's no catch. - $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three month plan only. Speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply, see mint mobile for details. (air whooshes) - So in 1982, Buena Park Locals report some weird activity going on in their town's drain systems. They're just hearing odd sounds, they're hearing growling, they are hearing weird screams and they're seeing odd animal tracks. And they're like, well, that doesn't make any sense. What's going on in there? Which I could understand animals being like, in a tunnel for a storm or something, but it is California, it doesn't rain all that much. - No, but it is interesting because the part of Anaheim I grew up in was like a big suburban, you know, big suburban sprawl. - sprawl, and so half of the city was built, and I'm Hill specifically was built in the '70s and the other half was built when I was growing up. So the thing that everyone really noticed was that all the animals, you know, in those areas where they were doing construction were all being pushed out. So we saw a lot of wildlife growing up. Like I saw ton of coyotes as a kid. - Interesting. - So I wonder, I mean, this is in between those times, but again, it's like construction always pushes out wildlife. - Had no idea. - Yeah. - Okay, well, maybe that's, maybe that's telling of something, Harry. They were seeing a bunch of animal tracks, but they were also seeing a dark shadowy figure hanging around in the sewers. And pretty much people were reporting that they were seeing almost a human figure, but there was something off about it. It was just a little too hairy and just a little too big. People were reporting that when they would get a better look at it, eventually they realized that this creature was about nine feet tall. - With a sewer? - That's a lot of crawling. There's not even a chance at squatting or anything in there. Nine feet tall with glowing red eyes. And so people claimed that they would see it near a river bank at the local school, but there were no official records, just rumors of it existing. And then on May 10th, 1982, two teenagers and their three friends were all hanging out. So five teenagers in total, they were all hanging out at the apartment complex. And I guess they're hanging out outside because they were within shot of the sewer system. And that's when they, for the first time, really got a good look at this thing because the creature was climbing out of the tunnel instead of climbing in. So while they were outside, they hear a deep snarl and then get this whiff of something disgusting. They pretty, it was like mean how they were describing how bad this smells. - Yeah, you would smell two if you were in this sewer. - Literally, like I can't imagine a worse place to try to smell good. But so they heard this horrible growl, got a whiff of something putrid. I'm saying putrid, they were more intense about it. And when they turned around, that's when they saw this big ass creature crawl out, they thought that it could have been a bear. One of them actually thought it was Bigfoot. They were like, "Oh my God, I see him, he is." And one of the brothers, his name was Raymond, is he's so alive, I think. This is a quote from Raymond about what happened. It got bigger as the roar got louder. - Whoa. - Which feels kind of like old school hulk where the angrier he'd get, the bigger he would get. So I don't know if they watched him like, metamorphosis, met a grow. - Metamorphosis? - Yeah, grow. It did a bigger big. But he apparently got bigger as he got louder. It was not human at all, it was scary, it was real. Nobody would make me change my mind about this. I really think it was the real deal. I really believe it to this day. - That's almost a little over 40 years ago, you said May 10th, so. - Yeah, oh wow, like really coming up on it. - Yeah, coming up. - 24 years, 44 years? - Yeah. - And they say that the figure hung around for an hour, which is crazy to me, because if I were a teenager and I thought I saw Bigfoot, I would at least have gotten all camera or I would have thrown something near it. - His Bigfoot's still out there. - I think if I were at 16, certainly I wouldn't be thinking clearly, I'd be like, oh my God, it's right here. I don't know, I would react differently than just staring at it. I would at least wave someone over and be like, you gotta see this. - I mean, there was a, again, going back to the wild life and in that part of Orange County. The, I remember very clearly one morning, I went out to get the newspaper when you still read the comics and the newspaper. And I stopped halfway down the driveway because there was a coyote just sitting in front of the newspaper and I was like, - I got like, like, waiting. - For you, like waiting to devour me, like. - And they're big, by the way. I thought coyotes, I mean, they're not wolf size, but they're much bigger than I thought. - No, no, and this was probably when I was like, I don't know, 12 or something. So it was kind of just like, you know? - Yeah. - It just stood there, looked at me. It was like, yo, what's up? - Did you just slowly back away? - Yeah, I just went back and, okay. I was like, did just a face off. - Yeah, yeah, I punched it. - No, I would never. - And as grew it, or as it wrote a replica. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - And I wrote it in a battle. - Yeah, you know, you should have ended it that way, actually, Stephen. So not only were they watching it for an hour, apparently just sitting on their thumbs, doing nothing or just watching it, they saw it splashing around in the water. They were hearing it kind of make weird sounds. I was like, there's so many opportunities to like, do something, I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I just, in my mind if the story could have been juicier, I'm mad that it wasn't. Like you writing a coyote into battle. - Yeah. - Apparently it did grow one final time before it ran off, and they said it sounded like if Godzilla in a gorilla had a baby. - No, so King Kong and Godzilla shacked out. - Literally, isn't there a movie of Godzilla and King Kong beating each other up? - Yeah, yeah. There's a few. - So that sound exactly is what it sounded like apparently. - I mean, that Godzilla sound. It's, I know this. because a friend wrote a Godzilla comic, Jordan Morris, the official Godzilla sound is Screonc. Screonc? Yeah, SKR-E-O-O-N-K, I think, or something like that. And the official spelling. Thank you. You know what? I come here with Godzilla facts. Like, I didn't see that coming, but I'm so glad you did. I, at the dog park, I am Hank's birthday's coming up, and I've already told people I'm going to do something. And I was thinking about thrusting it upon everybody at the dog park that day to do a spelling bee. I think Screonc is going to be the final word. And I'll be like, use it in a sentence. I'll be like, um, Godzilla sound, his sound is a Screonc. I mean, it's kind of like, that's my new Scrabble word that gets me in trouble. It's like, no, it's a real word, don't worry about it. Yeah, Screonc. Thank you. That's probably the most fun fact you guys will hear on this episode. Um, okay, so it's blasted around. It made a Screonc, and then it made a Screonc. It's Screonc, yeah, okay? And then it ran off further down the creek, so nobody could see it anymore. But the kids were like, we have to tell someone, finally, an hour later, they're saying this. And so they call the apartment managers, the apartment complex is manager, and he was like, I don't believe this. These are just some kids trying to mess with me. And I guess when the kids finally wave him over, he does see the shadow of it last minute. And he can still smell it. This thing is down the river, and he's like, I, what was that smell? So this thing really is pretty stinky. And also his wife claimed to also see it. They basically saw shadows in the tunnel, and that was kind of as far as they got. But they did also hear the Screonc, although they didn't describe it as a Godzilla gorilla sound. They described it as like the dinosaurs in the movies, and it smelled like hell worse than a sewer. Interesting, because it's 1982, so then it would have been something like land of the lost, or like King Kong, or like it's pre-jurassic park, so. We could have judged it up. Yeah, because they're saying like the dinosaurs in the movies, you have to wonder what movies are they talking about? Yeah, yeah. So Frank, who is the manager, his wife Lorraine also witnessed this, but Frank agreed that it sounded horrifying, and by the time he got there, the monster was pretty much already done the water. So he only witnessed the shadows, but did see some large tracks in the ground. With that, that was enough for him to want to call the cops, and be like, "We just saw something different than all the other animals. Can you please come?" And it took the cops an hour to show, because they thought that this was a prank poll. By the time they got there, they like couldn't find anything, or they said they didn't find anything, it sounds like they didn't really try to find anything. And they basically said, "Oh, it must have been someone's pet," which is crazy, that's insane. So they didn't do anything, but by the time that they got there, I guess like some reporter heard about them in the woods looking for an odd animal, and the story just kind of spread like crazy. Within three days, they were getting 200 to 500 calls within that week to the police station that people were seeing a monster in their town. Horrifying. Yeah, and Boino Park is just a very, it's just a, you know, I mean, having a theme park in your city is pretty cool, I guess. But like, you know, it's not, there's not a lot going on I think in Boino Park, or there wasn't when I was growing up, so. I don't know much. All I know is NOTS, and I know very little, because I'm not a local, but I'm going to take your word for that. And it's funny that you mentioned theme parks right before this bullet point, because one of the things I wanted to share with you was in that newspaper report that came out, this is how they started the newspaper article. Some people living near Disneyland think the abominable snowman has wandered off of the amusement park's famous Matterhorn ride and has taken up residence in the sewer drain. And when this newspaper article came out, mass hysteria in town. This is what led to the 200, 500 to 500 phone calls. And people within 24 hours had organized a monster hunt. Which, again, that's who I wanted when they were just staring at the saying for an hour. They were like, we're going to go find this. And we don't know what we're going to do once we find it, but we got to get there. Wow, they really organized. Quickly, like this whole story is like a week long. Wow. And they, a hundred people came to this hunt. I don't know how they got us together so quickly, but those damn screens distracting us. So cops were getting a bunch of calls of panic locals. People were like locking their kids inside, thinking that the monster was going to come get them. And actually paranormal investigators also came out to get tracks of this thing to follow it down the river. And they actually used dowsing rods, which is interesting because there, these rods that a lot of times are affected by water. So if you're trying to communicate with something, maybe they were using them to just follow where the water went. But aren't you saying next to a creek? You can see where the water goes. I mean, it is, but like, yeah, Orange County, like the river is there. I feel like that's a very generous term. Like there's a river that goes that empties out in between Newport Beach and Huntington Beach that maybe is this river that they're referring to. But you know, it's like the LA River. It's like an aqueduct, you know. Okay, that makes me feel better. So maybe they're using the dowsing rods not in a paranormal way, but let's just keep following the water way. Yeah, you're like, oh, this thing's just a concrete ditch for 90% of the year, you know? Which would make you think that it's a lot easier to find this thing. If there's like, it's not like he's hiding underwater or anything. True, but yeah, there are. There are a lot of tunnels. There are big culverts and things and stuff along that. So like I remember when I did Marathon, when I ran the LA Marathon, we would run along that river to train for it and stuff. Okay, so. Good to know. You ran the LA Marathon? Twice, yeah. When I was. The twice was crazy. 17 and 18, yeah. Oh, I'm good for you Steven. I wanted to do it like later in life, but now at this point, it's like a health risk for people to do it over a certain age. Really? I don't know that. Like your chances of heart attack is a lot higher after a certain age. Like I think 35 or something. Okay, so you're saying I have like a year and a half left until like, like medically, don't ever have to agree to run a marathon. Yeah, we could do like a half marathon, really. No, no, no, no. You want to do 26.2. I mean, I just want to not be able to do it and say a doctor said that it's for the best. Yes, yeah, yeah. My ability. I just have to hold on for like 18 more months and hope nobody asks. Yeah. I have a couple of weddings this year and I used to panic about what to do, shapewear-wise or what to wear underneath the dress. But no longer, because Honey Love entered the picture, I wear it under the dress to whatever wedding I'm going to and then I feel like Svelton sexy too. It's not like that kind of old school. Like I'm just corseting myself into something. Like it feels like pretty lingerie, but it's also useful. Honey Love recently launched their new crossover contour bra, which features their best-selling wireless crossover bra design, plus built-in molded light foam pads for extra support and a beautifully contoured shape. Christine, I can't confirm for you, but I bet that's how you felt. Can confirm. Perfect. And Honey Love's cloud and brace bra is a modern wireless t-shirt bra. Oh god, that sounds lovely. Love a t-shirt bra. Sturdy, lightly padded foam cups that feel like a cloud against your skin. Oh, yeah. I don't like the shapewear that rolls down and all that stuff, I should say. And it does not do that. So I am a fan of Honey Love shapewear. I would try it if I were you and you haven't found something that works for you. Treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market. Use our exclusive link to save 20% off Honey Love at honeylove.com/drink. At honeylove.com/drink and after you check out the ask you where you heard about them, please support our show and tell them we sent you. I experienced the new standard in comfort and support with Honey Love. Oh, we got a little kitty. I did see someone like almost try to get me earlier and I was keep my eye on it. This is bitty, bitty bum bum. We don't baby, we don't baby. She's Jennifer Lawrence and cut off jeans. That's how I think of her. I know you've said it to me before, but I get it. I know what you're. I'm not like the other moms. I'm like a cool mom. You know, like that's her attitude. I mean, she really does start swinging on them if they act up. Like it's very entertaining here. So let's see. Oh, so they had paranormal investigators come out. I don't know if they had them come out or the investigators just kind of arrived when they heard this monster happening. While they were out there, they ended up finding one like print in the mud that they thought was okay, but half of it seemed kind of destroyed and messed with. Yeah. So they got a cast of the first half of the track. They were like, let's look for something else. They ended up crawling into a tunnel and finding like a really good print where they said that they even tried to leave me, like tried replicating it, but they weren't heavy enough to make that kind of indent. Whoa. And so they were like, we gotta make a plaster cast of this right now. And one of the kids was like, you saw a track where? Like one of the kids on the monster hunt with them and ran up and destroyed it. Ugh. And then only destroyed a part of it. And they were like, let's at least get the other half and then another kid stepped on it and fully destroyed it. So-- Shh. Don't let-- Dan's getting scared. Crime scenes. Like, it's that simple. I'm right there with you. I just had another recovered memory. I think it was for my birthday when I was really young. But there was, there was like a little creek and like a big tunnel because the part of Anaheim I grip and there was like a lot of hills and stuff so there was like this big tunnel, or this tunnel that sewer tunnel that empties out into a creek. And for some reason, I think my mom or my dad put like, my ninja turtle toys out there. It was like they'd come out from the sewer. That would have blown my mind. That would have been-- It's like really, like it's like I can picture it. And so that's honestly what I've been picturing this whole story because I'm not too far from Buena Park. Buena Park's a little bit more flat and stuff and-- I love that. If I had an injured turtle toys, I would have absolutely played with them by the sewer or left them by the sewer or at least had a photo shoot of them by the sewer. Yeah, of course he got it, especially if there was a rat nearby, be like, "Don't move!" That's just winter. So anyway, they had this whole monster hunt, pretty much nothing ended up turning up from it. And even the original people who witnessed this, the teenagers and the manager, a part-time manager, they were like, "Oh well, of course it didn't show up because it was 100 people there and it scared it away." So that was their reasoning. You know what? I mean, it's not bad reasoning. They could be right. They could be right, but they could also be wrong in just, in denial. So to assuage everyone's fears, because I mean the monster hunt happened, they're getting hundreds of calls this police station, and we haven't found anything, and people are literally locking their families inside and creating their own perfume, because they're scared of this thing. The police are like, "We have to do something, at least to stop the phone calls from coming in." Sure. And so they have this press conference where they say, "Hey everyone, we found the monster." Now, people know my opinion on the police as a whole, and I'm going to just say it sounds like they were actively quickly just trying to cover this up, or just shut everybody up. That's my guess, because if you found it and then didn't give everyone the satisfaction of showing us an image of it. Show us the feet. Yeah, feet picks. And the fact that they never did that, I'm skeptical of them. But who knows? They did say at this press conference, "We got a picture of it." Now, hang on. The picture, the photographer was this like paranormal expert, or supernatural expert, and also a photographer. How convenient. And he, I guess, got a picture of something, and then the police just decided that this was the Buena Park monster. It ended up being not an eight or nine-foot being. It was a random six-four homeless man who had a bunch of grease all over him. And so now, the story gets sad, because I were like, "Oh man, people were literally hunting down like a guy who's already down in his luck, living in the fucking tunnels, lives in a sewer, so he smells like a sewer, and everyone is just quoting, just getting quotes in the paper about how stinky he is. He's having a rough time." And so, I mean, realistically, was a bigfoot or just like a man who was living in the sewer, probably a man living in the sewer. But I feel bad that all of this press happened on him, that, and he's already going through a situation. That being said, the people who are skeptical that this is just some sort of cover-up from the police, and they very strongly believe this monster is real, they called Bullshit immediately on this picture. They were like, "Well, hobos don't live in tunnels. That was an exact quote. Hobo, not an exact hang on. Here's the exact one. A hobo doesn't walk in the water. He walks along railroad tracks." And I was like, so now we're just super duper stereotyping. People who are like riding the rails, you know? It's like, does he also have like a plaid dindle on his sticks? Anyway, so they were just looking for any reason to be like, "It can't be, I know what I saw." And maybe they did, but it has never been seen since. One of the witnesses, who was a teenager at the time, has since said that he is so adamant. He knows what he saw. The women park monster is very real. And he said, "Oh, this was another. " Yeah, they just, they really doubled down on just ripping on this poor homeless man. They said, "If they would have seen and smelled him, they would be believers." It was for sure a monster. And I'm like, "Jesus, you couldn't even have a heart after the fact." I mean, Orange County is a very conservative part of California. So their attitudes towards unhoused, that's not surprising. They would just kind of like. We're on par. Beat on it. By the way, you know? It's like, "I must be right because he smelled so bad." And I'm like, "He's all ready on ours." Yeah. Okay. So anyway, that is kind of where it ended because once people decided, at least enough people saw this picture and assumed maybe I wasn't there. I never saw it. Maybe this really was the creature, quote. And so enough people died down where the, the hysteria kind of, you know, waned very quickly. So before it fully dropped off though, CBS's Dan Rather covered it, which is, I guess, a highlight. And also two months later, there was another sighting of very large prints that was, I think it was like 15 inches tall, like some big-ass print by seven inches wide. Wow. But also, I don't know if there was like some prankster or just, you know, someone maybe was just trying to put a random fake big-foot print on the ground. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know what was going on. But they did take a cast of that. And they did have quote big-foot experts give it a look. And they did say it looked very similar to other big-foot prints that they had archived. So good for them. That print, by the way, is now at what's now called the Ralph B. Clark Regional Park. Okay. Do you know about this park? I mean, I've probably been to that park because I played literally growing up. It used to be called Loose, I'm going to say Loose Coyotes, but it's Loose Coyotes, I think, Park. I mean, I feel like if I looked it up, I'd be sure I'd recognize it. Okay. Well, it's now the Ralph B. Clark Regional Park, which in short is the Clark Park, of course. And the print that I was just talking about where they found it not too far away. They did say that it did look similar to Bigfoot prints, and it is it is currently being there. But I want to end on telling you some fun facts about the Clark Park. I think you're going to get into this. Okay. So the Clark Park was a former excavation pit. Hang on. By the way, this is interesting to see even because he's a big dinosaur nerd if he didn't hear earlier. It is a former excavation pit. It is the OC's paleontology hub with quote, one of the most concentrated fossil beds in Southern California. And it is the only museum. I got all this information, by the way, from the OC register. It is the only museum in OC dedicated to locally found fossils and has a dozen active dig sites. So, and you can go there and they have an extensive fossil collection with fossils up to 80 million years old. And I just want to shout out a few of those fossils that they have in their collection that you could probably go see right now. And also not only is this dinosaur fossils, I also know you're a big fan of marine life. Yes. So there's a little more of that here. The first fossil that you can find there is a nearly complete 9 million year old skeleton of a whale named Joaquin, named Joaquin. And this is a quote from that article that I read. Joaquin displays a period of whale evolution and whales evolved when four legged mammals. Tell me if you knew this. Yeah, yeah. Whales evolved when four legged mammals living on the shoreline gradually made their way back to the sea. Joaquin's skeleton shows that evolution by having the remnants of a pelvis and a femur. So this whale has a pelvis and a femur and you can go see that there. That's awesome. There's also one of those active dig sites I told you about. They recently found a horse there, which now they have named the horse Tony the pony. And they also found another horse's molars. That horse is named jackpot because when they hit it, they went, "Oh, jackpot." Nice. The third fossil you'd be interested in, I think, is this hippo-like manatee called a paleoparadoxia. Yeah. Yeah. And fun fact at this place, they have the largest paleoparadoxia to ever be found. It's twice as big as any other one. Yeah, I'm my friend Gabriel, who does, who does Gabriel Santos, who does cosplay for science. He studies those. Well, I bet he's been at Clark Park. Yeah. And then the last one I'm going to tell you about, I think this is the most fun fact for me. Hopefully it's also fun for you. That there are very few dinosaur fossils in Orange County at all. Do you know that? Kind of. I feel like that's why maybe I didn't, maybe why I'm not as familiar with this park and all their fossil glory. Well, it's because at the time, back in the day, Orange County was underwater, so there's very few prehistoric dinosaur fossils, and they estimate over there that maybe, maybe, two to three shoe boxes would hold all the fossils of Orange County dinosaurs. Wow. And so that being said, although there's very few local dinosaurs to the area, there are nine pieces of hadrasaurus that you can find there. That's cool. And the last thing I'm going to say is that Clark Park, only 1% of the museum's collection is displayed for the public. But I have a feeling you could probably get in there real quick, and you could see maybe 2 or 3% of the collection. Yeah, we'll go on a trip. We'll love that. There's tons of small museums like the Alph Paleo Center and like the Western Science Museum. All these museums are in Southern California. Have never been to any of them. Really? You strike me as a museum guy. Yeah, I guess I'm like a mainstream museum guy. I've spent and worked with the Natural History Museum of LA a bunch, but I got a branch out. Well, now you have somewhere to go. And it's in your hometown. Yeah. So anyway, that is the one-a-park monster. I love that. It's such an 80s story. It's like Bigfoot comes to the suburbs, and it's like a week-long like tea. It sounds like Godzilla. Because that's the year that ET came out, too. So like it just feels like children, monster, going on an adventure. Yeah, it's kind of like how in the 40s and 50s they ended up having like the UFO craze. Yes. Was it because of like World War II? all of the spaceships and aircraft that was being built or-- - Sure, yeah, I mean, that makes sense. - That makes sense. - Well, 'cause it wasn't Roswell in '35. - '35, I thought it was '40 something. I don't know. - Maybe, yeah. - I'm not a UFO guy as much as I am like ocean and dinosaurs. - I do plan to go to Roswell this year, I think, for my birthday, so-- - That would be really exciting. - Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh. - But anyway, that is my story for you. I liked it. - I loved it. - No, I mean, yeah, I don't know, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know that we had our own little monster craze. - That makes me very happy that you didn't know it. I would've felt very, well, I don't know, 'cause if you knew about it, you could've chimed in every now and then. But I'm glad that I shocked you with something about that was local too. - No, that's so fun. Now it just makes me want to ask my parents if they remember this. - Yeah, I mean, I wonder how far out it's the rumor spread. - Yeah. - Was it only within five mile radius, or was the whole town here about this crazy cryptid? - I mean, but yeah, my mom and my dad, 'cause they, I think, had only just recently gotten married at that time. Maybe a year or two before, a year or two after, but they were together at that point, and I think they were both working at banks in kind of like Tustin, Boineapart, Costa Mesa, like that part of Southern California. - So they must, they probably, not musta, but they made me-- - They're like a t-shirt out of the, like, the Boineapart monster team-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Boineapart monster team, 1982. - Yeah, I don't know. That would be, let me know if you find out anything about that. - Yeah. (bell dings) - Rocket money is the only reason that I'm not splurging out of reach anymore in any category, because Rocket money would be like, you gotta get together. They say it's something slid across my desk, and it's your spending. And actually, we're gonna streamline this for you, we're gonna get this handled. - And it's actually now top priority. - Whenever I go in there, and I'm like, can you cancel this? They're like, right away. And I'm like-- - Right away. - And they're like, we actually meant to email you about that, 'cause-- - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they usually did already. And they're like, we already did this. And I'm like, wow, you are on top of it. Like, it's amazing. We obviously love Rocket money. You know this already. Rocket money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. - You can also set budgets and goals, you can get personalized insights and regular reports, and receive real time alerts for large transactions, upcoming bills, refunds, and low balances, and users who create a financial goal with Rocket money, they save over $70 on average with the first 30 days. - That's really, really great. Let Rocket money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at RocketMoney.com/drink. - That's RocketMoney.com/drink. RocketMoney.com/drink. - Wait, so it's my turn? - Yeah, it's your turn now. - Oh my gosh. - I'm very excited. And I also around a pause this evening because not only are you guessing, but now you are hosting physically, and I did ask you to do research for this, which is already, I appreciate all the work you put in. - No, well, I wanted to, I took this as an opportunity to really dive into something that I'm interested in, that I think, I don't know if you know anything about this, but it's really, okay, how am I gonna frame this story for you? This is very exciting. - It's actually not that serious, but it's actually not that serious at all comparatively, but let's see if I take my notes, but it's funny because it is creature-related. - Okay. - Yeah, but I wrote, 'cause this is the thing I work with so many people who write, research, do all these wonderful stories, and I'm like, oh, wait, for C. Jurassic, right, like I research for the guests, like if I have somebody on, I'll do research, but I guess I don't ever really write a story, so this was a really fun opportunity. - Oh, good, okay, nice. - So. - Let me get my avion over, please, okay. - Mozart and Salieri, Edison and Tesla, Michelle Branch and Vanessa Carlton, that hot-thrupple from challengers, the greatest rivalries, the great rivalries of our time. This story isn't really about dinosaurs, it's about toxic masculinity. Welcome to the Bone Wars. - What the fuck is going on? - Do you know anything about this? - No, I'm so excited. What are you talking about? Okay, I'm so excited. Okay, a real, I mean, talk about a mystery, okay. - Well, I was like, is there anything spooky or crimey related to dinosaurs? And this is like the, probably one of, I mean, I would say it's like one of, it is the biggest like dinosaur related in that vein, you know. - Take it away, stay away. - So I was like, you know what, I gotta do it. - Oh my God. - Dinosaurs, or as I call them, the prequel to birds, have obviously captured my imagination since I first saw Jurassic Park on the big screen in June of 1993. - Did you write a paper? - I did, I mean, I, yeah, I wrote a book. - Oh my God, okay. - I had a lot of fun with this, but. - I'm so happy. - I think you mentioned on our back to the future of C Jurassic Right, but you didn't see Jurassic Park on the big screen. - I didn't see it, period. - Oh, that's, you still haven't seen it. - Nope. - Oh, that's right, we talked about this at Bob's Big Boy. - We did. - You and, you and Haley. - Yeah, neither of us have watched, I've seen it. I've seen like clips, I've seen the jello or the glass, the water on the table, boom, boom. - Yeah. - I guide it, it seems, it seems good, but I've never watched it. - But what? - 'Cause you love nostalgia. Again, we talked about this on the back to the future. Like, were you like a dinosaur's kid and marine bio kid, construction, you know, I feel like there's like different horse, horse, you know what I mean? Like, there's different categories of kids. Like, what kind of kid were you? - That's such a good question. I don't, I mean, for a while I was a space and a spy kid. - Okay, yes, spy gear in the '90s was like huge. - When everything was like plexiglass and it looked like high tech because you could kind of see through it. - Yeah, translucent technology. - It really got me going. - Yeah, I was, and I also, I was a big, like, speaking of museums if I ever had to go to a museum, which we did talk about in sign language. She asked what our favorite types of museums are. I love a planetarium. - Yes, okay, so you were a space kid. - I was a space kid. - You never went to space kid. - Space and science kid, but I was not good at either. I just, I was fascinated by them. - No, sure, I mean, that's one of those things where I've realized, again, obviously I didn't go to that park. Or maybe I've been to that park and had no idea that there was bones there, but. Like, I always wanted the, it was before my time, but however a kid would get like a chemistry set. - Yeah. - I always wanted the chemistry set, but I also had a helicopter mom who thought I'd burn my eyes out. So, whoops, I never got one. - Yeah, it's the alternate timeline here. - Yeah. - So continuing, dinosaurs and religion have always been at odds with each other due to both being taught to us at a young age. And while non-western societies have known about ancient bones for centuries, the idea of an extinct species of animal no longer walking the earth that God could let one of its creatures die troubled many. And that is the world that Othenial Charles Marsh born in 1831 and then Edward Drinker Cope born in 1840, came up as America's leading, pardon me, Dick Swinging paleontologists. So you don't know anything about this. - Every word you just said, I've never heard of, is that where we get ornithology? Like birds? - What do they mean? - Othenial. - Othenial. - Othenial. - Othenial, yeah, yeah. - Othenial. - I know, it's, I don't know if there's anyone, I don't think anyone's been named that before after. - Sentem, yeah. - And I mean, again, I love a Mozart and a Salieri story. Like I love these like rivalries, you know, where like one person feels like the other one is getting success that the other one doesn't deserve. - It's getting Hamilton. - Yeah, totally, Hamilton's part of that too as well. - Although I shouldn't be smirch Michelle Branch and Vinesse Carlton, 'cause I love them both equally. - And that's fine. - But I just thought it'd be fun to throw that example in, 'cause. - You really threw me up first. I was like, what are we talking about? - And Edison and Tesla of course, you know. - That one was a little clearer to me. - Yes, yes, that example makes more sense. But that one has more heat behind it, I think. - But so the first quote unquote, again, just speaking in Western civilization terms. - Sure. - The first dinosaur bone was found in England to quarry in 1676, Megalosaurus. I called them like any T-Rex or Velociraptor, I called them meaty boys. - Love that, okay, 'cause they eat meat. - Yeah. - Okay. - Great, I know this 'cause they were like, they got a thick little tushy or something. - Yeah, I mean, some of these dinosaurs were kicked up, but another iconic first find was a Guanadon by Mary Ann Mantel in 1822. A Guanadon is like the Disney movie, a dinosaur, it has like, it's like a plant eater. And it's got like a big spike for a thumb to like get plants. - Fun. - Yeah, very kind of almost, it doesn't look like an ant eater, but it like, you know, it has like, claws for non-killing things. - Sure. - You know. - Sure. - And then in 1842, paleontologists are Richard Owen coined the term dinosaur, meaning terrible lizard. - Love that. I did not know terrible was involved. I knew lizard was involved. - Yes. - And then Charles Darwin's origin of species published in 1859, introduced the theory of evolution by natural selection. Okay, that's enough background. - I still loved it though. I never knew that the first dinosaur was found in the 1600s. - Yeah. - It's so crazy to me that there were people who just had no fucking clue that there were dinosaurs. - I mean, that's why I find it interesting, like that's why dinosaurs are so interesting 'cause it was like the first time people were like, wait, like God let animals, like people just assume that all animals that it ever lived were still alive. You know and in Western society and so dinosaurs were like part of this You know slow rise of science and our society. I'm shocked that that didn't rattle more people about like the ethics of God I mean it it totally does and it's yeah It's a whole thing that I really want to like dive into more because I know a lot of people with religious trauma If you ever want to come back on and that's why you drink more than welcome to talk about it It's that's that that's like I'm so excited to dive into it because there's a lot of fascinating stuff related to that So does that mean or the 1600s? That means the George Washington no dinosaurs existence Well, I think by Yeah, by the 1700s people were starting you know white people essentially were starting to find bones of creatures and being like Maybe they were giants. Maybe they were got it You know again like starting to be like okay, maybe they're giant lizards. Maybe they're like you know It was wasn't really clear. It was just like clearly these bones Don't match anything that's still alive. Something's going on. Yeah, something's going on. Okay So let's get to know our combatants new challenger approaches Othiniel Charles Marsh was what you might describe as the traditional stereotype of a scientist all facts all study Focused on his work in a believer in Darwin's theory of evolution. Okay. He wasn't the most social or affable guy and never married Okay, and maybe and maybe he was on the spectrum a little bit. Sure from descriptions of I there was like a one of his friends described him of like He even though we were had known each other for years. He acted like Like we had never met every time you know or something like that. I was like. Oh, wow He was really locked in on his on his data. Yeah, Marsh was born in New York City And after his father's business troubles and his mother's death during childbirth not his childbirth the family settled on a farm in Massachusetts Where Marsh was expected to help but listeners. He was not interested in being a farmer I don't think so And thanks to his wealthy uncle George P body who was a banker Marsh didn't have to settle for life on the farm and instead traded up for life of academia and join the study of minerals and fossils at Yale Nerd alert. Yeah, but it gets like you just I don't know anytime you hear stories about like schooling You know a hundred to 200 years ago. It's just such a different like I went to UC Santa Barbara So it was just like whoa school on the beach. Yeah, but back then it was like oh you made it into a prestigious Institution, but you went back just you went to school back east. I did it, but I not not at Yale Tell you that it was more of a woo Kind of just like I'm just brick and ivy, you know, yeah, that's how I picture this, you know Yeah, and that but I also wonder if you were to time travel back and be at Yale hundreds of years ago how Like what was the quality of the education? I wonder Party at our place don't protest. It's like etched into stone. Yeah Thyme Don't be a I don't know Kermudge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know old tiny language. I'm with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah Edward drinker cope on the other hand, which again drinker like he would do a great job of my college On the other hand was a Philly boy Okay, born to a wealthy Quaker family and was much more congenial than Marsh Okay, hold for page drop. I don't know how Karen Georgia did this one I would print them their stories every week. What they do with paper. Yeah, yeah, I would print out the stories for them every week Wow, yeah, well, let them know so to me Marsh was the Steve wasniac as Copus to Steve jobs. Okay, so it's like that's another great not necessarily rivalry But this idea that like one person is kind of like the face the showman the like The this you know the personality higher. Yeah, no, I totally And the other person is like the actual person doing the work. Yeah, and so Yeah, um copes religious upbringing prevented him from ever fully buying into Darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection So just another helpful distinguishing between the two of them totally because you know I've been making these great rivalry comparisons, but then it's like a little bit different than some of them, you know There's all there's kind of unique aspects to each rivalry But yeah, like I feel like I wonder how this story Because if it's it's what were the years they were born in the 1830s, right? Born 1831 was Marsh was a little bit older and then Copus born in 1840 It's fascinating to me how this information is still out there were they they have diaries where they just wrote about how they hate each other or like We're gonna get it. Okay. Yeah, and Copus raised to be a gentleman farmer aka how all millennials now in their 30s and 40s have gotten into crafting archery ceramics Sure. They are sell sure analog So copes lived off the family dime to pursue science for the sake of science not profit and without much proper schooling He was he was a vibe scientist. Yeah, it sounds like it. He was like it ain't it ain't much work, but it's honest work Yeah, yeah, exactly. He was just yeah copes was the one he was the he was the rich kid who was popular and fun and Marsh was the scientist like I just care about my work, you know, they're both getting into it for different reasons. Yeah Eventually coped did go to the University of Pennsylvania and study under Joseph Leedy who is one of the OG paleontologists in North America And then during the Civil War both coped in Marsh left the country behind and had their fateful meeting at the University of Berlin in 1864 Wow, so Fortunately, he did rivalry. This is not okay In a different way maybe maybe but they had spent they'd spent some time together in Berlin chatting about their love of fossils ancient life and more And they even named some extinct species after one another Fun. Oh, it's kind of like the reverse wicked where like they seem to really be getting along and You know what you're right. It is kind of like wicked a little bit. Yeah, it's a like we met at school Yeah, you know, oh my god it really is wicked And I mean naming dinosaurs after each other I knew you it's literally the most romantic thing You can write yeah, dearest, you know coped. I named this tiny lizard after you you know I do wonder like who got the cooler dinosaur named after them Well, neither of them named dinosaurs after each other from what I remember they were like I think it was like an ancient shell and like a lizard so I didn't get to and again because the story isn't Really about the dinosaurs as much it's more about these two characters, but sure but Yeah, we'll get it. We'll get it more. But it's still very romantic. It is so kind of heated rivalry. No, no I yeah, because I interviewed a paleontologist Dr. Thomas Rich in Melbourne last year and His wife who's also a paleontologist Dr. Patricia Vickers. They named two dinosaurs after their kids I don't know how to hear That's incredible. That's incredible M Mosaurus, you know, I'm a source in that bad M M O Titan. What would you be though? If you had a name it, I'll try to feel more I mean come on A more sore yeah more sore let's love to a more Anyway, I mean, well, we figured that one out pretty quick. Yeah, I wrote now kiss at the end of that sentence Okay, no kiss Back in America after the Civil War both men began their professional paleontological careers Marsh became the head of the natural history museum at Yale, which I didn't know where y'all was so I did look at it Yeah, yeah, okay, I had never been back east. Oh So maybe I should do a dinosaur tour let go to all these like old museums and like a dinosaur I mean, hello The more a source is on a dinator. Yes, and so yeah Marsh became the head of the natural storm museum of Yale because his uncle that rich George P body bought In paid for the museum to be built and was like by the way you can have my nephew run must be nice must be nice Meanwhile, Cope became a zoology professor at Haviford College in Pennsylvania and was a member of the Academy of Natural Sciences So the pair reunited a few years later when Cope invited marsh to the moral pits of New Jersey. Oh Have you ever been to the moral pits? No, is that near moral bro New Jersey maybe I don't yeah, it's somewhere in New Jersey. Okay New Jersey is like Trashy Lord of the Rings like that's how I think of I way people talk about New Jersey. It's like a Bruce Springsteen song or like You know Chris gether Stand up bit like I the only really frame of I mean I just came back from New Jersey after having never been there So I was born in Jersey, but okay, yes, but I never spent any time there and I have family there my only frame of reference growing up Was Jersey Shore so in that way it does sound a little bit like a back alley smelling like a cigarette Which I I know is not true as someone who just like experience some wonderful parts of it, but the stereotype They everyone from New Jersey seems to rag on New Jersey. So what am I supposed to find? Yeah, yeah, you lead into it But then there's stuff like the Jersey devil and like there's like an Americana vibe to it as well that feels very like There is vent fantastical, you know, I mean I really had a good time there. It was really I really want to go It was pretty fun. What's the American dream? Yeah, I have been there. Oh, that was also incredibly fun. That was a good time There's a there's a snow hill. There's a ski slope in there Yes, I do know about that. We were gonna go, but it closed. It was closed that day. Oh Anyway So yeah, the pair United at the Marl pits of New Jersey where it was like dearest dearest Martian mom's a darling darling Marl Would you like to join me in the moral pits of New Jersey? My mentor, Joseph Leedy, has discovered the Hadrasaurus. And it's like, "Go, bro, come look at my pits, you know? Look at my big site." So, you know, you might have images of Sam Neil as Dr. Alan Grant in Jurassic Park, although you haven't seen Jurassic Park, but others might. So, you know, you're thinking of a rugged Indiana Jones style paleontologist digging up bones. But back in the day, these paleontologists, they pay people to dig up the bones. Out. Yeah, they just would hire Coriman and minors and stuff and be like, "All right, can you just dig up chunks of rock that we kind of know have bones there?" And then send them back to the lab where then they would actually like do all the intricate stuff and prepare them and then write the papers and everything like that. So, yeah, Cope Normarsh never really got their hands literally dirty. And so, this is where the first. Okay. Drama happens? Marsh soon after his visit would return to the pits and pay Cope's men to send whatever they found to him instead of to Cope. Ah, that's evil. The first act of betrayal. Truly, like, what happened, like, why? I almost think it's in my head, like, from what I've read. And again, I've all lists my sources after this. But, like, it's almost this thing of, like, made the best man win. Like, Marsh, I think, maybe being more anti-social was just sort of, like, "Well, Cope's already got enough bones." You know? Like, it's. There's no gentleman's agreement. You know, there was no gentleman's agreement, so. Sure. But still, isn't this, like, your buddy who, like, he named a show after you? I know. But it was this next hoopla that would turn friends and lovers. That's not. They weren't lovers. To enemies. Okay. Well, Marsh was the more methodical and studious of the pair. Cope was known for his storytelling and pushed for the spotlight. Again, he's, like, charming, you know, fun, uh, Cope published new papers monthly, with little science compared to Marsh's more dry and scientific publications. Okay. So, like, I didn't write any specific down, but the sense of what I've read of Cope's is that he'd be, like, you know, this ancient bed with this dinosaur stock that's, you know, it was, like, very flowery, whereas, like, Marsh is, like, "We're not on the tibiala, it connects to the femur," you know, like. Yeah. Yeah. I'm being very general here. A very stuffy. It seems a little more. Yeah, just more academic. Serious. Yeah. And, um, the. So, I like that my important moments are stuck in between two pages. So. Well, please. So, the apocryphal story, as depicted in an episode of Drunk History, love that in 1868 Cope was presenting his new marine reptiles discovery, Alasmusaurus. So, Alasmusaurus. Think of, like, a pleasiestaur, like, lockness monster. Okay. Kind of looks kind of like that. So, he's presenting the skeleton of the Alasmusaurus. When Marsh points that and goes, I think the head is on the tail and, like, pulls the head and, like, is, like. You idiot. Yeah, of course. He's stupid idiot. And then Cope is, like, like, runs out of the hall. You know, humiliated. Sure. Totally shamed. Yes. So, that story is basically exaggerated. Because as these two became rivals, Marsh essentially, because actually it was Cope's mentor, Joseph Leedy, who pointed this out, just sort of like, hey, you're probably like, you know, that's what it's all about. You know, but then Marsh heard this and was like, I'm gonna just constantly. You know that time when you put the tape, when you put the head on the ass, and running it in. Yeah, yeah. So, and that basically severed their friendship for good. Okay. Until the end of their days. Okay. So, have you ever had a rivalry with somebody? I'm, like, trying to think. I think the worst rivalry I. No, I don't think I have. I think in high school, I was. I had a bully. Sure. But I was in a bully back. Yeah, I feel like this. I mean, I kind of was because I, once I got a microphone in my hand, I said, I mentioned that I had a bully and maybe said her name at one point. Whoopsies. So sorry. Whoops. I mean, look, it was a long time ago, and I'd. Hopefully no one has boxed her. I'd look, I do feel guilty about it. Actually, so yeah, I've had a rivalry. We have one now, because I. Yeah. No, I mean. That's something, sorry. I know, yeah, I've never really had a true, like, friend to now. We are active enemies, you know? Right. Like, there are, like, fake beef that I start with people. Like, I was starting beef with Jesse Buckley, who on the Oscar for Best Actress last year, because she. Love that you just start beef with someone like that, okay? Because she made her, uh, now husband get rid of his cats. So, you know. Oh, that, you know what? That's a good. That's a real rivalry. You know, or there was a film school, this very famous director, Mike Lee, who made one of my favorite movies. But when he was. When I went to London Film School, he was total asked to all the students. And so I, like, was very saucy back to him. So, he probably doesn't remember me. But, you know, it was like, oh, one of my favorite directors is a total asshole. But, you know, and I stood up for a friend, you know, in the class. That's great. Like, but when you're beefing with the director of the film school, the first week of class, you're like, maybe I'm not going to be here for very long. Yeah. No, I think, um, I wish I had, like, a juicier one. I mean, I really, I do actually feel pretty guilty as an adult with a fully developed brain, that I had a high school bully. And I think when, in the early years of the podcast, I called her up my name. And now I feel bad because I'm like, oh, I hope I didn't, like, ruin your life. But then also, like, it was 12 years of hell. And, like, then I grew up and had a microphone in my face. And I got a little cocky with it. Like, yours? It's really not a rivalry. It's just something I lose sleep about. I mean, when people come into your life, they're part of your story. So, it's your right to tell that part of it, too, you know? And I hope everyone here agrees on that. No, I, I, I think the biggest rivalry I have is like my, my, these days is like my MAGA family. It's like, which I don't have a relationship with them. But then there's always that awkward conversation or in holidays. Like, why won't you talk to us? And I'm like, oh, because you're terrible. Yeah. So I don't really have like, like, a Hamilton. No, for sure. Yeah, and I mean, again, how many people really do have this? This is such a like, well, okay, I'll get more into it. But, um, you know, so, you know, we're back to picturing Jurassic Park, which just, just picture desert, Lorddurn, looking amazing, you know, and some cutoffs. I have seen enough of it to know that she looks incredible. The, our queen. So picture, the opening of Jurassic Park again with Dr. Ellie Soutler and Dr. Alan Grant, out west in America, because that was a great place to dig up dinosaur bones. Cause sure. I, you know, as much as I love dinosaurs and stuff, I've never actually like dug up a fossil. Nope, I don't really like the fake like the gym, find the gym and the dirt kind of stuff. Yeah, I found him, uh, like arrowheads in the dirt. That's something. Yeah, I found a, like a railroad spike. That's cool. Yeah. A lot of metal detector. I don't. Christine does. Oh, cool. But, um, and I, she did something recently where she did like the, the, the really intense magnet and then you go fishing. Oh, yeah, yeah. That sounded really fun. I would love to try that. Yeah. And then there's even mud-larking in the Thames. And so like the Thames in, they're coming to get us. No, it's a fire truck. It's a fire truck. Um, no, in the Thames, it obviously has like a thousand years of history and just people dumping stuff. So when the tides go low, people can go and like dig around and you've like people have found like Roman artifacts, stuff from the Victorian era, like bottles and things. Oh, wow. I've always wanted to find a bottle at the bottom of an ocean with a message. Yeah, yes, with a message. Like if we were an empty bottle, we'll waste my time. Yeah, you want to be like, dearest, you know, I want, I want to find a bottle with a message. I mean, even if it was like in the walls of a house. Yeah. Like I, one of my friends, she, uh, it's the closest thing to a rivalry. I've got, she ends up being mad now. We don't speak. But in her house, uh, she had a message in a bottle because I guess they had some sort of party or something happened where a hole ended up in the wall. And they found it happened to be in the exact right spot where there was a bottle. And I guess the house used to be like a frat house. And they ended up finding like a picture of all the frat brothers and stuff and like a note, which makes you wonder like if you just happen, stance broke that section of the wall. Are there other bottles and other places? I know, like how much like what's hidden behind. And your house is like a hundred years old, right? It's almost, yeah. Yeah, I, I just have hope that there's something in the wall. Yeah, just start hammering it away. You'll figure it out. Yeah, no, now I'm just thinking of what is this feeling? So said it, you know, like I'm just like now imagining these two paleontologists, like writing. I didn't mean to prepare it so much to wicked. But it's so far very. Yeah, I mean, come on. It's like they're currently in their emerald city moment. Oh, well, or they've stepped away now. They stepped away and now it's like, Elphaba, please, you know, like, it's all too good. I did dress up as as Glenda from drag. Yes, for Halloween. And then it was mostly actually because Amanda Goodness from Drinking the Kool-Aid. And I we love wicked, which is how we met because we watched wicked together. But Amanda and I did a wicked episode together on C Jurassic, right? So she was Elphaba. I was. I remember the thumbnail of that. And one of you just had green everywhere. Yes, Elphaba. Amanda was covered in green. - Yeah. - And I look great in a crown. So back to the story. So yeah, so the conditions for creating a fossil are like really hard. It's like really rare for things to fossilize 'cause it's like, you know, you think about like, you know, when people find like, I don't know, like a rat skull or like deer, you know, carcasses 'cause it's like predators will come and pick it away and then bugs and the sun can like destroy bones and everything, but like the best way for things to become a fossil is usually they fall into water and then they're covered by sediment. And then millions of years happen and then those, you know, 'cause fossils aren't actually bones. They're minerals that have replaced. It's almost like a mold, you know? So-- - Chossles aren't bones? - Like they're, no, they're not bones anymore. They're essentially like the minerals have replaced every, like structurally where the bone was. - So it's like a cast of a bone. - It's essentially, yeah, yeah. And I'm not a paleontologist so if I'm not explained, I'm like, in my head, I'm like, when you're at a museum and it's like first step to become a fossil, die, you know? And then-- - I had no Ethan clue. I just thought, oh my God, you found the exact skeleton. - I mean, it is like, it's like essentially if you were replaced by rock and, you know-- - Fucking crazy. - Yeah. So like over, I think, I can't remember what the over-under is, but like, it is like, I think, over 10 million years old, you become, like, that's kind of like the threshold for becoming a fossil. - So embarrassing if you're in the 9 million years. - Yeah, and you're like, oh, well, you'll, just wait, you'll be fine. - You'll get there, yeah. - So obviously, no, obviously, but the deserts, deserts are a great place for fossils. And like you mentioned earlier, in your story, a lot of this part of, you know, Wyoming and the Dakotas and parts of California and Nevada and stuff was all underwater during the Cretaceous periods called the Great Interior Western Seaway. - You're so smart. - I might have, like, flipped some of those things, but this is basically the area where the bone wars happened. So, yeah, places like Wyoming, the Dakotas Colorado, where the battlefield of the bone wars has both marsh and copes and out teams into indigenous people's territories on a race to dig up and try and describe more dinosaurs than the other. - So really was, they were just racing to figure out, to just get higher stats or a bigger name in the community. - Yes, exactly. - Before the other person. - And so, like, like I was saying before, copes was much more of like, he finds a bone and he's like, well, this thing is a blah, blah, blastsaurus and, you know, it's stocked its prey and, you know, like, and this gentle plant eater, you know, sat by the river and munched on plants. Like, it was more just about that storytelling aspect. - Yeah. - Whereas marsh is like, slowly piecing bones together like. - Well, sounds like copes gonna win the race then, if you're taking your sweet time and study everything. - There technically is a winner, but it's like alien versus predator. We're like, either way, we lose sort of thing. - Sure. - It's like, well, we could have 10 sequels of this movie. It'll just keep, there will always, the killers will always be alive at the-- - Yes. (bell dings) - Here we are again, talking about Reddit somehow. I don't know how we became enemies to lovers, but it happens. - It's happened and I knew it was gonna happen 'cause every time I get on that Reddit, by gone it, is that a word? I don't know, I find it, I found out something new that I didn't even realize I was interested in or I get to practice my intuition. You know how much I love my intuition, practice subreddit, even just like the homepage where they just like recommend stuff. I'm like, okay, fine, I get it. You understand my soul. Okay, Reddit, fine, take it. I feel like there's quite a lot of subreddits that I was not letting myself love for quite some time. And you just gotta lean in. - These days, I'm falling asleep because it's instead of reading books, I read Reddit. And I've been diving deep into this one called, what is this? And basically people take a picture of something they don't know what it is. - I love that subreddit, I love that subreddit. - And it's like a gasket and I'm like, that changed my mind. - And you just scroll, I'm so glad I know. - And like, you find like wisdom and humor in the comments and you're like, what book is this? I forget what book I'm reading. It's yeah, I know what it's like. It's really fun. That's why we turn to our favorite subreddits, whether that's the intuition practice or what is this? (laughing) - Whatever question you're dealing with, whatever problem you're stuck on, Reddit always has the answers. Download the Reddit app and get answers on what this is. - What is this? - Download the Reddit app today. - So and I say this is no disrespect to other podcasters who have covered this story, but the idea that this pissing contest, this competition being overall a great thing, leading to 142 new species named and big press for the then burgeoning field of paleontology, I do think this idea is a little bit flawed. Over the 20th year period of the Bone Wars, not only would many of these discoveries turn out to be false, they would try and claim each other's discoveries. No, I discovered it. No, I discovered it. No, it's a allosaurus. No, you know, famously, it's an apodosaurus. No, it's a brontosaurus. Like stuff like that, they would also try, yeah, they would try and claim each other's discoveries as their own and they would take other paint, like other paleontologists are like, I would like to be excluded from this narrative and it's like, I'm taking your dinosaurs too, you know? - It sounds like, I mean, it's very, where you get like the inside of like geeks fighting. - Yes, totally, totally. - It's just like what like lab nerds are all about. I think it's so, I love this. - But it feels very antithetical to science, though. And this is the part where it's gonna feel very antithetical to science, which is often they would sabotage each other's digs and destroy actual fossils to be like, ooh, you guys can't carry out all these bones. We'll destroy the ones that you left behind because I don't want cope to get 'em or I don't want more to get them. - Yeah, and it is antithetical to science because I'm thinking at least that like, well, now we can't, we lost evidence. You just destroyed evidence for your own personal game. - Personal game, yeah. - And there's also been like, again, it's one of those like apocryphal sort of tales that I think both of these men lead into of like, he used dynamite to blow up my bones, you know, like that kind of thing. - It's not only redestroying it, but like who can destroy it better? - And also like, again, at this time, you know, it's post-civil war. It's that period of American history, you know, where we're committing atrocities against indigenous groups and stuff. So it's like, all of that is going on in the background while these two men are sending out teams to go and dig up dinosaur bones. - Sure. - Like just really like painting a picture of that time. Like, you know what I mean? It's like, a lot of selfish white men. - Yes, Buffalo, I just spoiled it, but Cope actually went out on a trip with Buffalo Bill. - Shut up. - Like, you know what I mean? - He's just like, woohoo, like we're gonna dig up some bones, you know, and it's just like, who's this like rich kid, you know? - Buffalo Bill like Gus has his own full rap sheet, but like, I feel like that should be added to the list of things that people know best about him. - Yeah, yeah. - It's like, oh, he's done all these things. Also, he like helped dig up dinosaur bones, those crazy. - Or just as like a publicity stunt went out with them. - And I don't blame him for the PR. That would be a cool thing to do. - Yeah, no, no, of course, it was, yeah, I mean, so yeah, they would often destroy actual fossils. They basically ruin paleontology's reputation to the rest of the world for a while. And having interviewed paleontologists working today, they're basically, like paleontologists now are still undoing the damage that these guys did. Because yeah, it's like, either they would destroy things, the information that people wanted to know, or because they were just like mislabeling things and renaming things. So it's like, that's the interesting thing. Like, I learned interviewing paleontologists and interviewing museum people. Is that like, you know, trying to get funding for anything? - A lot of times, most museum stuff is sitting, you know, in the back, just waiting for somebody to study it. - Clark Park only has 1% on display. - Yeah. - And so a lot of it is because of all this was done so messy, you know, these divas. - Yeah. - And it was just like, even now we're still trying to like, you know, scientists are constantly going back and being like, okay, like, let's look at their work. Was it actually up to stuff? We kind of have to redo it. - Right. - Or, you know, which is why, like, you know, there's, I don't know if you know about like how Bronisaurus and Apatosaurus are the same dinosaur. Like, Bronisaurus was the, like, is the more popular one. Like, you know Bronisaurus. - I do, it's a little foot. - Yes, little foot essentially. But Bronisaurus basically was named second and the original dinosaur is Apatosaurus, which is, at some point in the 60s or the 70s, they're like, wait, Bronisaurus is actually the same as Apatosaurus. Are they actually? - So, well, from my understanding, and this is one of those, like, I just remember this as a kid, you know, but essentially Bronisaurus was an Apatosaurus with a different long necked dinosaurs head. - Crazy. - And, but now, you know, kind of like Pluto situation, they found another dinosaur that's like little foot to give the name Bronisaurus too. So Bronisaurus is a real dinosaur again. - Okay. - It's just not the same one from when we. - Like Bronisaurus 2.0. - Yes, exactly. - Yeah, yeah. So, but it's stuff like that where it's like paleontologists are constantly like fixing stuff that these two men messed up. And so, like, yeah, I mean, we can talk more at the end about it, but it's like, I don't know. Sometimes I'm just like, is competition always healthy? - Not this time around, no. I mean, I really, I mean, the fact that you're covering, you're the true crime half of this, I mean, this is a crime against, for sure. - Sure. - Yes, it is a crime against science. So by the 1880s, Marsh was made head of the US Geological Survey and sought to consolidate power and assert his dominance over cope who had been publishing way more papers. So, and cope was running out of family money. He invested in a silver mine that went bankrupt and here is who's this? - He's one of them. - It's Wendy. - So yeah, cope was running out of daddy's money. He's investing in things like silver mines and stuff. This is after obviously the gold rush had been a while ago, but all this kind of prospect in-- - Yeah. - How have you ever been painting for gold? - Only like as an attraction. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But it's very fun. - So yeah, cope was running out of money. Marsh was head made of the US Geological Survey. And so Marsh, in his position of power, created a law that all fossils discovered with the assistance of the government would now be government property. So basically he was creating a law so that he could try and steal cope's fossils back from him, or not back from him, but from him. - It's giving Trump. - Yes. - Okay. - I make a law that helps me. I don't know. - It feels that way. It's like, well, I'm just trying to like, trying to scoop it all up. Yes, yes. - Yes, but cope was a good record keeper and he avoided Marsh's repo men. 'Cause it was daddy's money that paid for these digs. Not the government. - Right. - So, but this law would come back to bite Marsh in the end eventually. - Okay. - So cope is now in the offensive. He reaches out to the New York Herald and like, any great diva, you know, takes to social media, aka the newspapers, with a list of grievances, mistakes and complaints from former employees and colleagues of Marsh in a full expose, forcing him to resign as head of the US Geological Survey. - Holy shit. - Well, how many bad things had he really done? It sounds like he was the smart nerdy one who would have actually been paying more attention to the science of it all. - Exactly, but I think he got cocky. I think he was like, I'm educated. I go to Yale. I'm the real scientist. - Sure. - And cope is just the show men. So that's why I think this story's very interesting. 'Cause you're like, oh yeah, wouldn't, like, in some ways aren't you rooting for Marsh 'cause he's like the real scientist. But like, cope was actually kind of a nice guy. And I think Marsh maybe like almost resented the fact that like, you know what I'm saying? - It was a jealous of his popularity. - It may be in his charisma. - I think so. I think there's some elements of that. - 'Cause it sounds like, I mean, I could see him either being jealous or at least thinking like, it's not fair. Like, I'm doing this by the fucking book. - Yes. - And like, you and your little, like, fun attitude, all of a sudden, like, you get just as much praise as I do. - Yeah, and all the papers and stuff. - Yeah. - It was publishing. - Like, the insecurity of comparison. - Yes, yeah. - Compared to comparison is the thief of joy. - It is. - And of fossils. - And of us? - Wait. - That was a great little punchy end way to end that though. That was good. - So, yeah. So, Marsh had to resign as head of the US Geological Survey. And then also because of this, our government cut the agency's budget in half. So it was like, not only did Marsh get in trouble, but he also like ruined science for a while for people in the US because he got mad with power. And most of his fossils, because Marsh's fossils were dug up because of government grants, most of Marsh's fossils were repossessed. So Marsh's own law. - Yeah. - As Taylor Swift once said, karma is a cat purring in my lap 'cause it loves me. Anyway. - And she actually saw that from Coke. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Just imagine Coke just, is again, it's like-- - With a squirrel. - Yeah, yeah. - Karma is my boyfriend. But isn't that wild? Like that just feels like saying. - I think that's why this story's so popular 'cause there's these kind of like cinematic moments, you know? - Are there movies about this? - So there was supposed to be a movie with, there was supposed to be a movie with James Gandalfini as Marsh. - Oh, get out. - 20 soprano. - And Steve Carell as Coke. - Shut the hell up. - And by the way, how well cast that is. - I know. - Steve Carell is the kind of-- - Steve Carell is the kind of-- - Steve Carell is the kind of-- - Steve Carell is just like-- - Steve Carell is just like-- - Steve Carell is just like-- was just like this would be like it doesn't really matter because like no but it was for the headline yeah yeah talk about a headline that's a great one yeah wow I know you just had a lot of interesting things but I'm absolutely if I ever talk about the bone wars that is the bullet that will be at the end of every single time I talk about story yeah man isn't that cool wow thanks Stephen of course and yeah that is a real again I think because I've heard this story a lot and I know this story it's like what what's my angle to it you know and that's the thing I just and I'm curious about what you think or it's just like this idea of some people being like oh competition like helped but I'm like I don't I mean maybe but I feel like there's it's one of those things where it's kind of a best of both worlds like it's like I can see the like yes they were racing I don't know I think I'm leaning more towards it was not a good thing no and I think you just hear when you hear from actual paleontologists I don't think any of them are like oh I'm glad that like these two men kind of were messy bitches and like you know what I mean like I just feel like like they pumped out a shitload of dinosaurs like I mean that's that is cool that they were like who knows how long it would have taken for all those to be discovered if they weren't racing to do it but they could have also teamed up in the end and just like you cover this half of the world they'll cover this half and we'll just find them as fast as we can together they could have worked together I mean they were friends they like were friends like I think that's what makes it kind of tragic too yeah you know or they could have at least found like like different categories like I'll look up the marine stuff and if I find any like non marine I'll give that to you and that's they could they could have worked it out any in a bunch of different ways yeah also there's so many dinosaur bones especially at that time that you know hadn't been discovered yet like they could have just easily not destroyed each others or you know not destroyed their own like there was just all these little petty human male ego things that like yeah contributed to to me thinking like it's at least worth stepping back and being like was this a net it just yeah like it maybe it's not a net positive that's all I'm saying about it you know and all the head do all the head do was just talk out their feelings yeah but I kissed and kissed a little bit like I feel like honestly what they should have done if I were solving it for them I feel like they should have obviously teamed up I think they should have said like look Mars you're more the science geek I think we need you in the lab this guy's got the charisma that he could go on a whole like campaign and get everyone super jazzed about dinosaurs and open up all their museums or open up these parks so we can go digging yeah and he could have really like been the the voice to get everyone interested and then that could have brought even more scientists on that would have found even more dinosaurs faster yeah that's more like a Steve Jobs Steve Wozniak thing because you know they work together to create Apple I think they I think that should have been what happened there yeah but because also could have been like nerdy alphabet and like PR Galinda oh PR Galinda PR Galinda yeah thank you thank you for being here that was so nice wait I want to read my sources oh oh go for it got a credit I got a credit the dollop they did a really great episode on this back in the day stuff you should know did a really great episode um the book The Rise and Fall of Dinosaurs by Steve Brusati history this week drunk history fun Tony Hale plays um cope oh that's great and then um what's the guy in lawn order from sorry Christopher Mellonie Elliott Stabler yeah so you really this is crime indeed you really yeah Christopher Mellonie played um Marsh that's a seracle um my C. Jurassic Right collaborator Andrea C. Offlow A.K. Strange Bird Art um natural eastern museum with L.A. natural eastern news or field museum and then a Nat Geo article by the amazing Riley Black very cool well remind too damn I had to I had to come prepared you know I was like I'd work with so many people who are so good at you know citing their sources that's very sweet I I'm pretty sure we put our sources in below on our on our YouTube so hopefully it's there um but just in case SF gate uh robo japan blog spot OC historical blog spot UPI uh OC parks OC register and then a Facebook page about L.A. history I love it I love it thank you for being here please shout out where people can listen to you well you can listen to me on C. Jurassic right yeah I interview again M's been on talk to back we talked about back to the future but I've also had musicians scientist I did a series in the fall last year called the back to school series where I interviewed paleontologist science communicators alleyward from allergies who I I worked on allergies for many years um the errands from this podcast will kill you they're you know a disease ecologist um interview to shark scientist amaniwebbersholtz some of the host of eons like I don't know I love talking to scientists because they're like it's one of those things like as a creative person I'm like science and math are really hard and then you actually meet scientists and you're like oh my god these people are creative and charming and cool too and I'm like wait that's not fair you can't be good at science and be artistic and charming and creative but everyone I interviewed is great and um yeah I don't know that's a fun series to start with so very cool yeah you're on C. Jurassic right and follow Steve Ray Morris Steve Ray Morris on all the things and usually this is where we just say and that's why we drink I think we should sign it oh I know this is and and that's that's um why we have what's why again is it this why - We drink.