E487 A Non-Squatting Sasquatch and Skreeonk Facts (featuring Guest Host Steven Ray Morris)

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And like not being able to wash them. The whole time we've lived here, it's just hardwood everywhere. Now I have discovered tumble rugs. Yes. Oh my God. Like it's so nice to have my house actually look like things are getting put together. Like they're being completed. My mom used to power wash, like take a power washer and power wash my rugs. Because it was, I was like, I don't know how else to do this. And, or pay, you know, pay somebody to do it. And with the, I have one, I've had one for a long time actually in my entryway. And to toss it in the wash, and then it's like, oh, you got it. My mom was like, you got a new rug. And I was like, no, it was just a very muddy week. They're spill proof. They are machine washable. And it's, it's especially nice because I knew once we got a dog, I knew he would get a dog butt shedded. Yeah. And I was like, I just don't even want to have to think about like on top of sweeping vacuuming. It just was not something I wanted to do. There's so many nice styles over there. It's so beautiful. It's very, very wonderful. So, um, yeah, machine washable rugs made better for a limited time. Only our listeners get 10% off plus free shipping at tumbleliving.com/drink. That's T U M B L E living.com/drink. After you purchase, they will ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you Hello everybody. Uh, you might be wondering what's going on. I am in Stephen Ray Morris's house. Uh, unfortunately, Christine could not be here this week and so, uh, Stephen decided that he would be stepping in by decided, I mean, I kind of forced him. I said, please come right now. And uh, I was going to record in our usual way over the internet, even though we're neighbors. And then that internet wasn't working. So I went to a hotel so I could use their internet. That internet wasn't working. Here is evidence of that somewhere. Hopefully we can put a little poll, a little screen tab of, um, us once recording this. But then since that internet was so bad, we're trying for a third time, he said, just come over. Um, so now we're here. Yeah. And I'm all snuggled up on, on, in his living room. Thank you so much for hosting us as I host you welcome to you and Ray Morris. Hello. Thank you for doing this with me. I'm very excited. You've got a blanket. Yes. My three cats are somewhere. They're somewhere. Steven even said, oh, do you want me to put the cats away? And I went, please keep them out because I know we got a lot of, um, cat lovers who listened. So I did make you do this the last time, but would you please tell people all about your kitties? Cause they're brand new to the family. No. I'm very lucky. I lost my cat Penny Lane of 18 years in November and it's just one of those, and of course they're going to start running around. That's fine. If you hear any rumbles. And they come upon the scene. No, I, you know, you never know when you're ready for another pet, but my friend Christine had rescued these two black cats and I was like, I love black cats. You know, they're harder to adopt all that stuff. So I was like, I'll meet them. Right. And then their mom was there as well. And I just said, you know what, let's take them all. So. So you've got one to three cats as you've said. Yeah, no. And it's the thing. Yeah. So I have three cats. Biddy Biddy Bum Bum is the mom named after the Selena song. Love it. And then I have Ripley, who's the boy, he's the large black cat. He's the special boy. And then I have Wendy, who's the goblin princess, who I think is the one with the swishy tail over there right now playing. She looks like she's in hunt mode, which I love. Yes. And my favorite fact about all of his cats is that out of all three of them combined, they have one tooth. Yes. She has one tooth, which is why her tongue sticks out all the time. It's very precious. Eternal blep. Eternal blep. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I'm just so grateful for you, Stephen. It was it's been such an embarrassing day between like, hey, the Internet's not working. Hey, the Internet's not working again. So I really I thank you so much. No, of course. Yeah. Housing me. We did our See Jurassic Right episode together here in this living room. It was one of the last recordings I did before I adopted these cats. And Wendy and Biddy Biddy Bum Bum are in full Lorelei and Rory mode. Here. Gilmore. I call them the Gilmore Girls when they're fighting. It's the mom and daughter fighting. No, they I guess I was here last time, probably one of your last silent episodes, I guess, before they were running around. But yeah, this is a wonderful time to shout out your podcast. See Jurassic. Right. Yes. Tell tell the world what you'd like them to know about that. They they love to show off. It's great. No. See Jurassic. Right. It started off as Jurassic Park podcast. But then I was thinking because we after our ASL class the other day. I like the idea of see Jurassic right is essentially like any guest that come comes on. It's like, what is their Jurassic Park? Yeah. And so I've interviewed scientists, I've interviewed therapists, musicians, other podcasters, people in the Jurassic Park movies, and me. You started with scientists and we got to us talk about there's one of them. We talked about Back to the Future and theme parks and stuff. Yeah, I did really like we we kind of came together on the the not together, but I was like, Hey, what's your Jurassic Park theme park. Yeah, I love that. It was it was very nice, because I remember when Steven asked me to be on his episode, please go listen to it. I was like, Oh, man, it's a dinosaur podcast. What am I going to talk about? And it turned into kind of just like a fandom geek fest. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's totally Yeah. The podcast is basically kind of split between those two lines of like, science stuff and dinosaur stuff. And then also like movies, pop culture, geeky stuff. Yes. And then there's like a little lane there where there's like Steven lore related things that I can fit in there. But yeah, love it. So Steven is returning the favor and he's he's coming on to our show. I very excited a lot. You've said the same on your end, but a lot of people who follow my social media are very excited that we have become friends, where we also did ASL together. So today's yappy hour, we're gonna teach you a little ASL. And but now people are very stoked that you know, we've got a little thing going on. So I'm I'm glad that you're here. I poor Steven. Already knows the topic because we got that far in the last recording. There's spoilers. No spoilers. I did ask Steven if he wanted a ghost and alien or a cryptid. He said cryptid. I did. And I did pick a local cryptid for him because he was born and raised or just raised in Anaheim. I was born and raised in Anaheim. So you know, Orange County was born and raised at Disneyland Mickey's my dad. Yeah, we we talked in the last you'll never know now. But we did talk about how Steven your first job was at Disney. First ever job. 2017 was at Disneyland and yeah, very few people can relate support. I mean, I basically worked at Costco, the Costco pizza, like that's what Disney that's what pizza port essentially is. Yes, it's very good, but it is just like pizza, you know, it's not as like, themed as other parts of Disneyland, but I did like being in Tomorrowland and I loved being below Space Mountain. That was really fun. I can't imagine having like a work break, like, like some people were just like having a cigarette in Tomorrowland instead of a back alley. Yes, Pluto was having a cigarette. With her head off. Her? Yeah. Oh, that's I don't know why that's shocking to me too. That's just as shocking as the cigarette. Oh, wow. Okay. Well, Pluto's having a good time. I mean, no, it's not the same Pluto anymore. But one can dream. Yeah. So the crypt that I picked for you was a local to Anaheim. And it was the Buena Park monster. Although one of the newspapers I read did say Buena foot instead of Bigfoot. So we got about one bullet in. Oh, wow. So that actually, Steven is really going to be learning about this in real time. And you were not familiar with this monster. No. Yeah. I mean, Buena Park is near Knott's Berry Farm, where I had my winter formal in high school, which doesn't I feel like you having a winter formal at a theme park doesn't make sense because you're riding roller coasters in a, you know, in a tux in a dress like. Oh, I didn't think about that. Yeah. It was kind of a weird thing. Like, I remember because, you know, ill fitting suit at 17 or Yeah, I think 16 or 17. Like my Nokia flip phone like flew out of my pocket on the roller coaster. Like it was a bit of a disaster. I did. It didn't occur to me that people were actually in glam. No, no. It was it was winter formal. Like, I feel like it should have either been like Sadie Hawkins or like Homecoming. That's kind of familiar with them. I was very lucky to go to a premiere at Disney. Oh, cool. It was for the Haunted Mansion. Oh, nice. And so one of the cool things about that was. You had to actually ride the Haunted Mansion ride. And when you got to the other side, that was where the movie began. You had to go. You had to ride the ride to get to the movie. Whoa. That's cool. I thought it was so smart because then you like definitely knew all the references when you watch the movie because you just saw the ride. You were absorbing it. And but I we also had to dress up for that. It was a movie premiere and I was like, are people going to go ride rides afterwards in this is like in heels. I thought that was so odd. But. Anyway, I did not. I did like one ride and I was like, let's get out of here. Okay. So when a park monster. I. The only fun fact I told you is that at Knott's Berry Farm, nearby where this monster was seen, they, a few years later, had a ride come out called Bigfoot Rapids. And a lot of people thought that that was inspired by the sightings a few years before. But unfortunately, I'm here to tell you that's not true. They just picked Bigfoot, I guess. It's a great ride. You get wet, you know. It's one of those, like, is it a log flume? Or is it like when you sit in the circle and you go under the waterfalls? Yeah. I haven't ridden it. Is it still there? I don't know. That's a good question. I feel like my allegiances have mostly been split between Disneyland and Universal Studios. I understand. And I just really, I don't think I've been back to Knott's Berry Farm since high school. Get out. Not even for Halloween? They have a big Halloween thing out there at Knott's. Maybe one year to the Halloween thing. Fun. I just don't, I guess I'm not into Boysenberry. I went to the Boysenberry Festival this year on principle. So it's worth it. So I should go. If you're hungry, it's a 10 out of 10. Yeah. Okay. So we start in 1982. This is where the internet cut out last time. Ding dong. Who's that? Oh, it's your new, it's your ringtone on your Mint Mobile phone. Oh my God. That would give me a panic attack and my dog would bark every single time. How annoying. Ding dong. Well, hey, ding dong one more time. Did you know that Mint Mobile, they took what's wrong with wireless and made it right with premium wireless for $15 a month. And you can even bring your current phone and your number over. Ding dong. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It feels like a catch, like, oh, $15 a month. Okay. And then, but for, for what? Like just to get in the door and it's like, no, no, that's actually the cost. Um, and not to name names. I literally won't name names cause I'm legally not allowed to, but there are other, uh, providers that have not really been so transparent. Bring your current phone and your number choose from three, six or 12 month plans with Mint Mobile and say goodbye to a monthly bill. Ditch overpriced wireless with Mint Mobile. It is super easy. Yeah. So to get your new wireless. Plan for just 15 bucks a month. Go to mintmobile.com slash ATWWD. That's mintmobile.com slash ATWWD. Cut your wireless bill to 15 bucks a month at mintmobile.com slash ATWWD. That's it. There's no catch. $45 upfront payment required equivalent to $15 a month. New customers on first three month plan only speed slower above 40 gigabytes on unlimited plan. Additional taxes, fees, and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. So in 1982, uh, Buena Park locals report some weird activity going on. In their town's drain systems. They're just hearing odd sounds. They're hearing growling. Uh, they are hearing weird screams and they're seeing odd animal tracks and they're like, well, that doesn't make any sense. What's going on in there? Which I could understand animals being like in a tunnel for a storm or something, but it is California. It doesn't rain all that much. No, but it is interesting because the part of Anaheim I grew up in was like a big suburban, you know, big suburban sprawl sprawl. And so half of the city was built, uh, Anaheim. Anaheim Hills specifically was built in the seventies and the other half was built when I was growing up. So the thing that everyone really noticed was that all the animals, you know, in those areas where they were doing construction were all being pushed out. So we saw a lot of wildlife growing up. Like I saw a ton of coyotes as a kid, bobcats. So I wonder, I mean, this is, this is in between those times, but again, it's like construction always pushes out wildlife. Had no idea. Yeah. Okay. Well, maybe that's, maybe that's telling of something here. Um, they were seeing a bunch of animal tracks, but they were also seeing a dark shadowy figure hanging around in the sewers. And, uh, pretty much people were reporting that they were seeing, uh, almost a human figure, but there was something off about it. It was just a little too hairy and just a little too big. Um, people were reporting that when they would get a better look at it, eventually they realized that this creature was about nine feet tall in the sewer. That's a lot of crawling. There's no, there's not even a chance at squatting or anything. I mean, um, nine feet tall with glowing red eyes. And so people claimed that they would see it near a river bank at the local school, but there were no official records, just rumors of it existing. And then on May 10th, 1982, two teenagers and their three friends were all hanging out. So five teenagers in total, they were all hanging out at the apartment complex. And I guess they're hanging out outside and because they were within shot of the sewer system. And that's when they, for the first time, really got a good look at this thing because the creature was climbing out of the tunnel instead of climbing in. So while they were outside, they hear a deep snarl and then get this whiff of something disgusting. They pretty, it was like mean how they were describing how bad this smelled. Yeah. You would smell too if you were in a sewer. Literally. Like I can't imagine a worse place to like try to smell good. Um, but so they heard this horrible growl, got a whiff of it. Got a whiff of something putrid. I'm saying putrid. They were more intense about it. And when they turned around, that's when they saw this big ass creature crawl out. Uh, they thought that it could have been a bear. One of them actually thought it was Bigfoot. They were like, Oh my God. I see him. Here he is. Um, and one of the brothers, his name was Raymond is he's still alive. I think, um, this is a quote from Raymond about what happened. It got bigger as the roar got louder. Whoa. Which feels kind of like. Old school Hulk where the angrier he'd get, the bigger he would get. Um, so I don't know if they watched him like metamorphosis, met a grow to a bigger big, but, um, he apparently got bigger as he got louder. It was not human at all. It was scary. It was real. Nobody would make me change my mind about this. I really think it was the real deal. I really believe it to this day. Oh, that's almost a little over 40 years ago. You said May 10th. So yeah. Oh, wow. Like really coming up on it. Coming up. 24 years, 44 years. Yeah. Um, they say that the figure hung around for an hour, which is crazy to me because if I were a teenager and I thought I saw Bigfoot, I would at least have gotten a camera or I would have thrown something near it. Is Bigfoot still out there? I think if I were at 16, certainly I wouldn't be thinking clearly. I'd be like, Oh my God, it's right here. Like I'd be, I don't know. I would react differently than just staring at it. I don't know. I'd at least wave someone over and be like, you got to see this. I mean, there was a, again, going back to like the wildlife and in that part of Orange County, like the, I remember very clearly one morning I went out to go get the newspaper when you, when you still read the comics in the newspaper and I like stopped like halfway down the driveway because there was a coyote just sitting in front of the newspaper and I was like, Oh my God, like, like waiting for you, like waiting, waiting to devour me like, and they're big by the way. I thought. I mean, they're not wolf size, but they're much bigger than I thought they were. And I was, this was probably when I was like, I don't know, 12 or something. So I was kind of just like, you know, it just stood there, looked at me. It's like, yo, what's up? Did you just slowly back away? Yeah. I just went back and said, okay. I was like, did just a face off. Yeah. Yeah. I punched it. No, I would never. And as it grew it or as it wrote, and I wrote it in a battle. Yeah. You know, you should have ended it that way actually, Stephen. So not only were they watching it for an hour, apparently, just sitting on them on their thumbs, doing nothing or just watching it. They saw it splashing around in the water. They were hearing it kind of make weird sounds. I was like, there's so many opportunities to like do something. I don't know. I don't know what I would do. I don't, I just, in my mind, if the story could have been juicier, I'm mad that it wasn't like you writing a coyote into battle. Yeah. Um, apparently it did grow one final time before it ran off. And they said it sounded like if Godzilla and a gorilla had a baby. Oh. So King Kong and Godzilla shacked up. Literally. Isn't there a movie of Godzilla and King Kong beating each other up? Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's a few. So that sound exactly is what it sounded like. Apparently. I mean that Godzilla sound it's, I know this because a friend wrote a Godzilla comic, Jordan Morris, the God, the official Godzilla sound is screonk. Screonk. Yeah. S-K-R-E-O-O-N-K. I think or something like that. And the official spelling. Thank you. You know what? Okay. Come here with Godzilla facts. Like I didn't see that coming, but I'm so glad you did. I, um, at the dog park, I am Hank's birthday is coming up and I've already told people I'm going to do something. And I was thinking about thrusting it upon everybody at the dog park that day to do a spelling bee. I think screonk is going to be the final word. And I'll be like. Please use it in a sentence. I'll be like, um, Godzilla sound. His sound is a screonk. I mean, it's kind of like, that's my new scrabble word that gets me in trouble. It's like, no, it's a real word. Don't worry about it. Yeah. Screonk. Thank you. That's probably the most fun fact you guys will hear on this episode. Um, okay. So it's splashed around. It made a screonk and then it made a screonk. It's screonked. Yeah. Okay. And then it ran off further down the creek. So nobody could see it anymore. But the kids were like, we have to tell someone finally an hour later, they're saying this. And so they call the apartment managers, the car, the apartment complexes manager. And he was like, I don't believe this. These are just some kids trying to mess. With me. And I guess when the kids finally wave him over, he does see the shadow of it last minute and he can still smell it. This thing is down the river. And he's like, I, what was that smell? So this thing really is pretty stinky. Um, and also his wife claimed to also see it. They basically saw shadows in the tunnel and that was kind of as far as they got, but they did also hear the screonk, although they didn't describe it as a Godzilla gorilla sound. They described it as like the dinosaurs in the movies and it smelled like hell. worse than a sewer. Interesting. because it's 1982 so then it would have been something like land of the lost or like yeah we could have kong or like it's pre-jurassic park so we could have judged it up yeah because they're saying like the dinosaurs in the movies you have to wonder what movies are they talking about yeah yeah um so frank who is the manager his wife lorraine also witnessed this but frank agreed that it sounded horrifying and by the time he got there the monster was pretty much already down the water so he only witnessed the shadows but did see some large tracks in the ground with that that was enough for him to want to call the cops and be like we just saw something different than all the other animals um can you please come and it took the cops an hour to show because they thought that this was a prank call by the time they got there they like couldn't find anything or they said they didn't find anything it sounds like they didn't really try to find anything and they basically said oh it must have been someone's pet which is crazy you it's insane so um they didn't do anything but by the time that they got there i guess like a some reporter heard about them in the woods looking for an odd animal and the story just kind of spread like crazy within three days they were getting 200 to 500 calls within that week to the police station that people were seeing a monster in their town horrifying yeah and park is just a very it's just a you know i mean i mean having a theme park in your your city is pretty cool i guess but like you know it's not there's not a lot going on i think in buena park or there wasn't when i was growing up so i don't know much all i know is knots and i i know very little because i'm not a local but i'm gonna take your word for that and it's funny that you mentioned um theme parks right before this bullet point because one of the things i wanted to share with you was in that newspaper report that came out um this is the first time that i've ever heard of a theme park and i'm like this is how they started the newspaper article some people living near disneyland think the abominable snowman has wandered off of the amusement park's famous matterhorn ride and has taken up residence in the sewer drain and when this newspaper article came out mass hysteria in town this is what led to the 200 500 to 500 phone calls and people within 24 hours had organized a monster hunt which again that's who i wanted when they were just staring at this thing for an hour they were like we're gonna go find this and we don't know what we're gonna do once we find it but we got to get there wow they really organized quickly like this whole story is like a week long wow and they a hundred people came to this hunt i i don't know how they've got us together so quickly but it's those damn screens distracting us so cops were getting a bunch of calls of panicked locals people were like locking their kids inside thinking that the monster was going to come get them and actually paranormal investigators also came out to get tracks of this thing to follow it down the river and they actually used dowsing rods which is interesting because they're these rods that a lot of times are affected by water yeah so if you're trying to communicate with something maybe they were using them to just follow where the water went but aren't you standing next to a creek you can see where the water goes i mean it but like yeah orange county like the river is there i feel like that's a very generous term like there's a river that goes that empties out in between newport beach and huntington beach that maybe is this river that they're referring to but you know it's like the la river it's like a aqueduct you know okay that makes me feel better so maybe they were using the dowsing rods not in a paranormal way but in a let's just keep following the waterway yeah you're like oh this thing's this thing's just a concrete ditch for 90 of the year you know which would make you think that it's a lot easier to find this thing if there's like it's not like he's hiding underwater or anything true but yeah there are there are a lot of there are big like culverts and things and stuff okay that so like i remember when i did marathon when i ran the la marathon we would run along that river to like train for it and stuff okay so good to know you ran the la marathon twice yeah when i was so twice was crazy 17 and 18 yeah good for you steven i wanted to do it like later in life but now at this point it's like a health risk for for people to do it over a certain age really i didn't know like your chances of heart attack is a lot higher after a certain age like i think 35 or something okay so you're saying i have like a health risk for people to do it over a certain like a year and a half left until like like medically don't ever have to agree to run a marathon yeah you could do like a half marathon no no no you want to do 26.2 i mean i just want to not be able to do it and say a doctor said that it's it's for the best yes yeah yeah liability i just have to hold on for like 18 more months and hope nobody asks yeah i have a couple weddings this year and i used to panic about what to do shapewear wise or what to wear underneath the dress um but no longer because honey love entered the picture and i'm like okay i'm gonna do it i wear it under the dress to whatever wedding i'm going to and then i feel like svelte and sexy too it's not like that kind of old school like i'm just corseting myself into something like it feels like pretty lingerie but it's also useful honey love recently launched their new crossover contour bra which features their best-selling wireless crossover bra design plus built-in molded light foam pads for extra support and a beautifully contoured shape uh christine haven't i cannot confirm for you but i bet that's how you felt can confirm perfect and honey loves cloud embrace bra is a modern wireless t-shirt bra oh god that sounds lovely love a t-shirt bra sturdy lightly padded foam cups that feel like a cloud against your skin oh yeah i don't like the shapewear that rolls down and all that bad stuff i should say and it does not do that so i am a fan of honey love shapewear um i would try it if i were you and you haven't found something that works for you treat yourself to the most advanced bras and shapewear on the market use our exclusive link to save 20 off honey love at honeylove.com drink that's honey love.com drink and after you check out they'll ask you where you heard about them please support our show and tell them we sent you experience the new standard and comfort and support with honey love uh oh we got a little kitty i did see someone like almost try to get me earlier and i was keeping my eye on it this is bitty bitty bum bum little baby little baby she's jennifer lawrence and cut off jeans that's how i think of her i know you've said it to me before but i get it i know what you i'm not like the other moms i'm like a cool mom you know like that's her attitude i mean she really does start swinging on them if they act up like it's it's very um entertaining here so uh let's see oh so they had paranormal investigators come out i don't know if they had them come out or the investigators just kind of arrived when they heard this monster hunt was happening while they were out though they ended up finding uh one like print in the mud that they thought was okay but half of it seemed kind of destroyed and messed with yeah so they got a cast of the first half of the track and they were like let's look for something else they ended up crawling into a tunnel and finding like a really good print where they said that they even tried leaning like tried replicating it but they weren't heavy enough to make that kind of indent and so they were like we got it we got to make a plaster cast of this right now and one of the kids was like you saw a track where like one of the kids on the monster hunt with them and ran up and destroyed it and then only destroyed a part of it and they were like let's at least get the other half and then another kid stepped on it and fully destroyed it so don't let kids hear crime scenes like it's that simple i'm right there with you i just had another recovered memory i think it was for my birthday when i was really young but there was there was like a little creek and like a big tunnel because the part of anaheim i grew up in there was like a lot of hills and stuff so there was like this big tunnel that or this tunnel that sewer tunnel that empties out into a creek and i for some reason i think my mom or my dad put like my ninja turtle toys out there it was like they'd come out from the sewer that would have blown my mind that would have been it's like really like it's like i can picture it and so that's honestly what i've been picturing this whole story because i'm not too far from wayna park but wayna park's a little bit more flat and stuff and i love that i i if i had ninja turtle toys i would have absolutely played with them by the sewer or left them by the sewer or at least had a photo shoot of them by the course you got to especially if there was a rat nearby i'd be like don't move i'm not gonna do that um so anyway they had this whole monster hunt pretty much nothing ended up turning up from it and even the original people who witnessed this the the teenagers and the manager the apartment manager they were like oh well of course it didn't show up because it was a hundred people there and it scared it away so that was their reasoning you know what i mean it's not bad reasoning they could be right they could be right um but they could also be wrong and just uh in denial so to assuage everyone's fears because i mean the monster hunt happened they're getting hundreds of calls this police station and we haven't found anything and people are literally locking their families inside and creating their own curfew because they're scared of this thing the police are like we have to do something at least to stop the phone calls from coming in sure and so they have this press conference where they say hey everyone we found the monster now people know my opinion on the police as a whole but and i i'm gonna just say it sounds like they were actively quickly just trying to cover this up or just shut everybody up that's my guess because if you found it and then didn't give everyone the satisfaction of showing us an image of it show us the feet yeah exactly feet pics feet pics and um the fact that they never did that i'm skeptical of them um but who knows they did say at this press conference we got a picture of it now hang on the picture this like paranormal expert or supernatural expert and also a photographer how convenient and he i guess got a picture of something and then the police just decided that this was the buena park monster it ended up being not an eight or nine foot being it was a random six four homeless man who had a bunch of grease all over him and so now the story gets sad because they were like oh man people were literally hunting down like a guy who's already down his luck yeah living in the fucking tunnels lives in a sewer so he smells like a sewer and everyone is just quoting just getting quotes in the paper about how stinky he is he's having a rough time and so i mean realistically was it bigfoot or just like a man who was living in the sewer probably a man living in the sewer but i feel bad that all of this press happened on him that uh and he's already going through a situation that being said the people who are skeptical that this is just some sort of cover-up from the police and they very strongly believe this monster is real they called bullshit immediately on this picture they were like well hobos don't live in tunnels that was an exact quote hobo not an exact hang on here's the exact one a hobo doesn't walk in the water he walks along railroad tracks and i was like so now we're just super duper stereotyping people who are like riding the rails you know it's like does he also have like a plaid bindle on a stick like anyway so they were just looking for any reason to be like it can't be i know what i saw and maybe they did but it has never been seen since one of the things that i was trying to the witnesses who was a teenager at the time has since said that he is so adamant he knows what he saw the brennan park monster is very real um and he said oh this was another yeah they just they really doubled down on just ripping on this poor homeless man they said if they would have seen and smelled him they would be believers like it was it was for sure a monster and i'm like jesus like you couldn't even have a heart after the fact i mean orange county is a very conservative part of their attitudes towards unhoused isn't that's not surprising that they would just kind of like we're on par beat on beat on it like by the way you know like it's like i must be right because he smelled so bad and i'm like he's already unhoused yeah okay so anyway that is kind of where it ended because once people decided at least enough people saw this picture and assumed maybe i wasn't there i never saw it maybe this really was the creature quote um and so enough people died down where the the hysteria kind of you know waned very quickly so before it fully dropped off though cbs's dan rather covered it which is i guess um a highlight and also two months later there was another sighting of very large prints that was i think it was like 15 inches tall like some big ass print by seven inches wide wow but also i don't know if there was like some prankster or someone maybe was just trying to put a random fake bigfoot print on the ground i don't know yeah i don't know what was going on but uh they did take a cast of that and they did um have quote bigfoot experts give it a look and they did say it looked very similar to other bigfoot prints that they had archived so good for them um that print by the way is now at uh what's now called the ralph b clark regional park okay do you know about this park i mean i've probably been to that park because i played little league growing up so maybe it was used to be called los i'm gonna say los coyotes but it's los coyotes i think uh park i mean i feel like if i saw if i looked it up i'm sure i'd recognize it okay well it's now the ralph b clark regional park which in short is the clark park of course and um the the print that i was just talking about where they found it not too far away um they did say that it did look big footprints and it is it is currently being there but i want to end on telling you some fun facts about the clark park i think you're going to get into this okay so the clark park was a former excavation pit hang on i by the way this is interesting to steven because he's a big dinosaur nerd if you didn't hear earlier um it is a former excavation pit it is uh the oc's paleontology hub with quote one of the most concentrated fossil beds in southern california and it is the only museum i got all this information by the way from the oc register it is the only museum in oc dedicated to locally found fossils and has a dozen active dig sites so and you can go there and i've been doing my whole life they have an extensive fossil collection with fossils up to 80 million years old and i just wanted to shout out a few of those fossils that they have in their collection that you could probably go see right now uh and also not only is this dinosaur fossils i also know you're a big fan of marine life yes so there's a little more of that here the first fossil that you can find there is a nearly complete nine million year old skeleton of a whale named joaquin they named him joaquin and this is a quote from that article that i read joaquin displays a period of whale evolution and whales evolved when four-legged mammals tell me if you knew this yeah whales evolved when four-legged mammals living on the shoreline gradually made their way back to the sea joaquin's skeleton shows that evolution by having the remnants of a pelvis and a femur so this whale has a pelvis and a femur and you can go see that there that's awesome there's also uh one of those active dig sites i told you about they recently found a horse there which now they have named the horse tony the pony and they also found another horse's molars that horse is named jackpot because when they hit it they went oh jackpot nice um the third fossil you'd be interested in i think is this hippo like manatee called a paleoparadoxia yeah yeah and fun fact at this place they have the largest paleoparadoxia to ever be found it's twice as big as any other one yeah i'm my friend gabriel who does uh who does gabriel santos who does cosplay for science he studies those well i bet he's been at clark park yeah and then the last one i'm going to tell you about i think this will this is the most fun fact for me hopefully it's also fun for you that there are very few dinosaur fossils in orange county at all do you know that kind of i feel like that's why maybe i didn't maybe why i'm not as familiar with this sure and all their fossil glory well like it's because at the time back in the day the orange county was underwater so there's very few prehistoric dinosaur fossils and they estimate over there that maybe maybe two to three shoe boxes would hold all the fossils of orange county dinosaurs wow and so that being said although there's very few local dinosaurs to the area there are nine pieces of hadrosaurs that you can find there that's cool and the last thing i'm going to say is that clark park only one percent of the museum's collection is displayed for the public um but i have a feeling you could probably get in there real quick and you could see maybe two or three percent of the collection yeah we'll go on a trip we'd love that there's tons of small museums like the alf paleo center and like the western science museum all these museums are in southern california i've never been to any of them really you strike me as if you've never been to any of them i've never been to any of them i've never been to any of them i've never been to any of them i've never been to any of them i was a museum guy i've yeah i guess i'm like a mainstream museum guy like i've spent and worked with the natural history museum of la a bunch but i gotta branch out well now you have somewhere to go um and it's in your hometown yeah so anyway that is the buena park monster i love that it's so it's such an 80s story it's like bigfoot comes to the suburbs and it's like a week long like teen like it it sounds like godzilla because that's the year that et came out too so like it just feels like children monster going on an adventure like yeah it's kind of like how in the 40s and 50s they ended up having like the ufo craze yes uh was it because of like world war ii all the spaceships and aircraft that was being built or sure yeah i mean that makes sense like well because it wasn't roswell in 35 35 i thought it was 40 something i don't know yeah i i'm not i'm not a ufo guy as much as i am like i ocean and dinosaurs i do plan to go to roswell this year i think for my birthday so that would be really exciting yeah yeah oh my gosh but anyway that is my my story for you i hope you liked it no i i i mean yeah i don't know i didn't know anything about it i didn't know that we had our own little monster craze that makes me very happy that you didn't know it i would have felt very well i don't know because if you knew about it you could have chimed in every now and then but i'm glad that i shocked you with something about that was local to you no that's so now it just makes me want to ask my parents if they remember this yeah i mean i wonder how far out it's the rumor spread yeah like was it only like within five a five mile radius or was like did the whole town hear about this like crazy cryptid i mean but yeah my mom and my dad because they i think had only just recently gotten married at that time maybe a year or two before year two after but they were together at that point and i think they were both working at banks in kind of like tustin buena park costa mesa like that part of southern california so they must they probably not musta but like pull out a t-shirt out of the you know like they were on like the monster yeah yeah exactly buena buena park monster team 1982 yeah i don't know that would be let me know if you find out anything about that yeah rocket money is the only reason that i'm not splurging out of uh out of reach anymore in any because yeah i'd be like you gotta you gotta get together they say something's slid across my desk and it's your spending and actually we're gonna we're gonna streamline this for you we're gonna get this handled and this is actually now top top priority whenever i go in there and i'm like can you cancel this they're like right away and i'm like right away and they're like they're like we actually meant to email you about that because yeah yeah and they usually did already and they're like we already did this and i'm like wow you are on top of it like i it's amazing uh we obviously love rocket money you know this already rocket money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel unwanted subscriptions monitors your spending and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings you can also set budgets and goals you can get personalized insights and regular reports and receive real-time alerts for large transactions upcoming bills refunds and low balances and users who create a financial goal with rocket money they save over 70 on average with the first 30 days that's really really great let rocket money help you reach your financial goals faster join at rocketmoney.com drink that's rocketmoney.com drink rocketmoney.com drink wait are we so it's my turn yeah it's your turn now oh my gosh i'm very excited and i also round of applause to steven because not only are you guesting but now you are hosting physically and i did ask you to to do research for this which is already i i appreciate all the the work you've put in no i well i wanted to i took this as an opportunity to really dive into something that i'm interested in that i think i don't know if you know anything about this but it's really okay how am i going to frame this story for you this is very exciting it's actually not that serious but it's not it's actually not that serious at all comparatively but let's see if i take my notes but it's funny because it is creature related okay yeah but uh i wrote like because it's the thing i like work with so many people who write research to do research for do all these like wonderful stories and i'm like oh wait like for see jurassic right like i research for the guests you know like if i have somebody on i'll do research like but i don't ever like i guess i don't ever really write a story so this was like a really fun opportunity oh good okay nice so let me get my evy on everybody please okay um mozart and salieri edison and tesla michelle branch and vanessa carlton that hot throuple from challengers the greatest rivalries the great rivalries of our time this story isn't really about dinosaurs it's about toxic masculinity welcome to the bone wars what the fuck is going on do you know anything about this no i'm so excited what are you talking about okay i'm so excited okay okay a real i mean talk about a mystery okay well i was like is there anything spooky or crimey related to dinosaurs and this is like the probably one of it i mean i would say it's like one of it is the most interesting story i've ever read in my life i mean it's like the most interesting story i've ever read in my life i mean it's like the most interesting story i've ever read in my life is the biggest like dinosaur related in that vein you know take it away so i was like you know what i gotta do it oh my god um dinosaurs or as i call them the prequel to birds have obviously captured my imagination since i first saw jurassic park on the big screen in june of 1993 did you write a paper i did i mean i yeah i wrote oh my god okay i had a lot of fun with this but i'm so happy i i think you mentioned on our back to the future see jurassic right but you did you didn't see jurassic park on the big screen i didn't see it period oh that's you still haven't seen it nope oh that's right we talked about this at bob's big boy we did you and you and hayley yeah neither of us have watched i've seen it i've seen like clips i've seen the jello or the the glass the water on the table yeah i got it seems seems good but i've never watched it but what because you love nostalgia again we talked about this on back to the future like were you like a dinosaur's kid a marine bio kid construction you know i feel like there's like different like horse person you know what i mean like there's different categories of kid like what kind of kid were you that's such a good question i don't i i mean for a while i was um a space and a spy kid okay yeah spy gear in the 90s was like huge when everything was like plexiglass and it looked like high tech because you could kind of see through it yeah um translucent technology it really got me going yeah i was and i also i was a big like speaking of museums if i ever had to go to a museum which we did in the 90s i was like oh my god i'm gonna go to a museum i'm gonna go to a and sign language she asked what our favorite types of museums are i love a planetarium yes okay so you're a space kid i was a space kid you never went to space camp space and science kid but i was not good at either i just i was fascinated by them no sure i mean that's one of those things where i've realized again obviously i didn't go to that park or maybe i've been to that park and i had no idea that there was bones there but like i always wanted like the it was uh before my time but how every kid would get like a chemistry set yeah i always wanted the chemistry set but i also had a mom who thought i'd burn my eyes out so whoops couldn't never got one the alternate timeline here yeah um so continuing dinosaurs and religion have always been at odds with each other due to both being taught to us at a young age and while non-western societies have known about ancient bones for centuries the idea of an extinct species of animal no longer walking the earth that god could let one of its creatures die troubled many and that is the world that othoniel charles marsh born in 1831 and and then edward drinker cope born 1840 came up as america's leading pardon me dick swinging paleontologist so you don't know anything about this every word you just said i've never heard of ornith is that where we get ornithology like birds uh what was his name othoniel othoniel othoniel yeah yeah othoniel i know it's it's i don't know if there's anyone i don't think anyone's been named that before or after sent him yeah and i mean again i love a mozart and a salieri story like i love these like rivalries you know like one person feels like the other one is getting success that the other one doesn't deserve giving hamilton yeah totally hamilton's part of that too as well um although i i shouldn't be smirch michelle branch and vanessa carlton because i love them both equally and that's fine but i just thought it would be fun to throw that example in because you really threw me at first i was like what are we talking about you and edison and tesla of course you know that one was a little clearer to me yes yes that example makes more sense but that one has more heat behind it i think but so the first quote unquote again just speaking in western civilization terms sure the first dinosaur bone was found in england and aquaria in 1676 megalosaurus i called them uh like any t-rex or velociraptor i called them meaty boys love that okay because they eat meat yeah okay this is very simple i know if it's because they were meaty but they're not meaty they're not meaty they're not meaty they're not like they got a thick little tushy or something no i mean i mean some of these dinosaurs were kicked up but um okay uh another iconic first find was iguanodon by mary ann mantle in 1822 um iguanodon is like the disney movie a dinosaur it has like it's like a plant eater um and it's got like a big spike for a thumb to like get plants fun yeah very like kind of almost it doesn't look like an ant eater but it like you know it has like claws for non-eating animals killing things sure you know sure um and then in 1842 paleontologists or richard owen coined the term dinosaur meaning terrible lizard love that i did not know terrible was involved but i knew lizard wasn't yes and then charles darwin's origin of species published in 1859 introduced the theory of evolution by natural selection okay that's enough background i still loved it though i never knew that the first dinosaur was found in the 1600s yeah i it's it's so crazy to me that there were people who just had no fucking clue about it i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't have a clue that there were dinosaurs i mean that's why i find it interesting like that's why dinosaurs are so interesting because it was like the first time people were like wait like god let animals like people just assumed that all animals that had ever lived were still alive you know in western society and so dinosaurs were like part of this you know slow rise of science in our society i'm shocked that that didn't rattle more people about like the ethics of god i mean it really does and it's yeah it's a whole thing that i really want to like dive into more because i know a lot of people with religious trauma if you ever want to come back on and that's why i drink you're more than welcome to talk about it it's it's that's that that's like a i'm so excited to dive into it because there's a lot of fascinating stuff related to that so does that mean the 1600s that means the george washington no dinosaurs existed well i think by yeah by the 1700s people were started you know white people essentially were starting to find bones of creatures and being like maybe they were giants maybe they were dinosaurs maybe they were dinosaurs maybe they were giants maybe they were got it you know again like starting to be like okay maybe they're giant lizards maybe they're like you know it was it wasn't really clear it was just like clearly these bones don't match anything that's still alive something's going on yeah something's going on okay um so let's get to know our combatants new challenger approaches um otheniel charles marsh was what you might describe as the traditional stereotype of a scientist all facts all study focused on his work and a believer in darwin's theory of evolution okay he wasn't the most social or affable guy and never married okay and maybe just a nerd and maybe he was on the spectrum a little bit sure from descriptions of there was like a uh one of his friends described him of like he even though we were had known each other for years he acted like like we had never met every time you know or something like that i was like oh wow he was really locked in on his on his data yeah marsh was born in new york state he was born in new york state he was born in new york state city and after his father's business troubles and his mother's death. during childbirth not his childbirth the family settled on a farm in massachusetts where marsh was expected to help but listeners he was not interested in being a farmer i don't think so um and thanks to his wealthy uncle george peabody who's a banker marsh didn't have to settle for life on the farm and instead traded up for life of academia enjoying the study of minerals and fossils at yale nerd alert yeah but it's like you just i don't know anytime you hear stories about like schooling you know 100 to 200 years ago it just is such a different like i went to uc santa barbara so it was just like well school on the beach yeah but back then it was like oh you made it into a prestigious institution but you went back to you went to school back east i did but i not not at yale i'll tell you that it was more of a woo kind of place just like i'm just brick and ivy you know yeah that's how i picture this you know yeah and but i also wonder if you were to time travel back and be at yale hundreds of years ago how like what was the quality of the education i wonder with the pill with a quill party at our place don't protest it's like etched into stone yeah yeah thy don't be a i don't know a tom fool yeah yeah exactly yeah you know old timey language yeah yeah yeah um edward drinker cope on the other hand which again drinker as a middle name he would do a great job at my college on the other hand was a philly boy okay born to a wealthy quaker family and was much more congenial than marsh okay hold for page drop i don't know how karen and george did this when they i would print them their stories every week would they do with paper yeah yeah i would print out the stories for them every week wow um well let them know so to me marsh was the steve wozniak as cope is to steve jobs okay so it's like that's another great not necessarily rivalry but this idea that like one person is kind of like the face the showman the like the this you know the personality hire yeah no i totally get and then the other person is like the actual person doing the work yeah and so yeah um cope's religious upbringing prevented him from ever fully buying into darwin's theory of evolution and natural selection so just another helpful distinguishing between the two of them totally because you know i've been making these great rivalry comparisons but it's like a little bit different than some of them you know like there's all there's kind of unique aspects to each rivalry um but yeah like i feel like i wonder how this story because if it's it's what were the years they were born in the 1830s they were born in 1831 was marsh so he's a little bit older and then cope was born in 1840 it's it's fascinating to me how this information is still out there were they did they have diaries where they just wrote about how they hate each other or like we're gonna get into it okay yeah and cope was raised to be a gentleman farmer aka how all millennials now in their 30s and 40s have gotten into crafting archery ceramics sure asl sure um analog um so cope lived off the family dime to pursue science for the sake of not profit and without much proper schooling okay he was he was a vibe scientist yeah it sounds like it he was like it ain't it ain't much work but it's honest work yeah yeah exactly he was just yeah cope was the one he was the he was the rich kid who was popular and fun and marsh was the scientist like i i just care about my work you know they're both getting into it for different reasons yeah yeah um eventually cope did go to the university of pennsylvania and study under joseph leady who was one of the og paleontologists in north america and he was a scientist and he was a paleontologist in north america and then during the civil war both cope and marsh left the country behind and had their fateful meeting at the university of berlin in 1864 wow so unfortunately heated rivalry this is not okay in a different way maybe maybe but they had spent they'd spent some time together in berlin chatting about their love of fossils ancient life and more and they even named some extinct species after one another fun oh it's kind of like the reverse wicked where like they seem to really be getting along you know what you're right it is kind of like wicked a little bit yeah it's a we met at school oh my god it really is wicked and i mean naming dinosaurs after each other i thought i knew you it's literally the most bromantic thing you can do right yeah dearest you know cope i named this tiny lizard after you you know i do wonder like who got the cooler dinosaur named after them well neither of us know the answer to that question i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know well neither of them named dinosaurs after each other from what i remember they were like i think it was like an ancient shell and like a lizard so i didn't get too into again because the story isn't really about the dinosaurs as much it's more about these two characters but sure but um yeah we'll get it we'll get in more that is still very romantic it is still kind of heated rivalry no no and i yeah because i interviewed a paleontologist uh dr thomas rich in melbourne last year and his wife who's also a paleontologist dr thomas rich and his wife who's also a paleontologist dr thomas rich and his wife who's also a paleontologist dr patricia vickers they named two dinosaurs after their kids get the hell out of here that's incredible that's incredible m m a saurus you know m a saurus isn't that bad m mo titan what would you be though if you had a name for you more source i mean come on a more sore yeah more sore let's love too a more anyway i mean well we figured that one out pretty quick yeah i i wrote now kiss at the end of that sentence okay now kiss um back in america after the civil war both men began their professional paleontological careers marsh became the head of the natural history museum at yale which i didn't know where yale was so i had to look it up yeah yeah okay i've never been back east oh um so maybe i should do a dinosaur tour like go to all these like old museums a dinosaur i mean hello um the morosaurus is on a dinosaur yes and so yeah marsh became the head of the natural history museum of yale because his uncle that rich george peabody bought and paid for the museum to be built and was like by the way you can have my nephew run must be nice must be nice uh meanwhile cope became a zoology professor at haverford college in pennsylvania and was a member of the academy of natural sciences so the pair reunited a few years later when cope invited marsh to the moral pits of new jersey oh have you ever been to the moral pits no near marlborough new jersey i don't yeah it's somewhere in new jersey okay new jersey is like uh trashy lord of the rings like that's how i think of the way people talk about new jersey it's like a bruce springsteen song or like uh you know a chris gethard stand-up bit like i the only really frame of i mean i just came back from new jersey after having never been there i was born in jersey okay yes but i never spent any time there and i have family there my only frame of reference growing up was jersey shore so in that way it does sound a little bit like a back alley smelling like a cigarette which i i know is not true as someone who just like experienced some wonderful parts of it but the stereotype they everyone from new jersey seems to rag on new jersey so what am i supposed to find yeah yeah you lean into it but then there's stuff like the jersey devil and like yeah there's like an americana vibe to it as well that feels very like there is fantastical you know i mean i really had a good time there it was really i really want to go it was pretty fun dream mall what's the oh american dream yeah i have been there that was also incredibly fun that was a good time there's a there's a snow hill there's a ski slope in there yes i do know about that we we're gonna go but it closed it was closed that day anyway um so yeah the pair united at the moral pits of new jersey where it was like dearest dearest um darling marsh would you like to join me in the moral pits of new jersey my mentor joseph leady has discovered the hadrosaurus and it's like go bro come look at my pits you know look at my look at my dig site so you know you might have images of sam neill as dr alan grant in jurassic park although you haven't seen jurassic park but others might so you know you're thinking of a of a rugged indiana jones style paleontologist digging up bones but back in the day these paleontologists they paid people to dig up the bones get out yeah they just would hire quarrymen and miners and stuff and be like all right can you just dig up chunks of rock that we kind of know have bones that we don't know how to dig up and there and then yeah send them back to the lab where then they would actually like do all the intricate stuff and prepare them and then gotcha write the papers and everything like that so um yeah cope nor marsh never really got their hands literally dirty okay um and so this is where the first okay drama happens marsh soon after his visit um would return to the pits and then he's going to have to figure out what to do with all of his bones and then he's going to have to figure out what to do with all of his bones and then he's going to have to figure out what to do with all of his bones and then he's going to have to figure out what to do with all of his bones and again i'll list my sources after this but like it's almost this thing of like may the best man win like marsh i think maybe being more anti-social was just sort of like well cope's already got enough bones you know like it's it's there's no gentleman's agree you know there was no gentleman's agreement sure but still isn't this like your buddy who like he named a show after i know um but it was this next hoopla that would turn friends and lovers That's not, they weren't lovers. To enemies. Okay. While Marsh was the more methodical and studious of the pair, Cope was known for his storytelling and push for the spotlight. Again, he's like charming, you know, fun. Cope published new papers monthly with little science compared to Marsh's more dry and scientific publications. Okay. So, like, I didn't write any specific down, but the sense in what I've read of Cope's is that he'd be like, you know, this ancient bed where this dinosaur stalked the, you know, it was, like, very flowery, whereas, like, Marsh is like, well, in the tibula, it connects to the femur, you know, like. Yeah, yeah. I'm being very general here. But very stuffy. It seems a little more. Yeah, just more academic. Yeah, yeah. And the, so, I like that my important moments are stuck in between two pages. So, hold please. So, the apocryphal story, as depicted in an episode of Drunk History, that in 1868, Cope was presenting his new marine reptile discovery, Elasmosaurus. So, Elasmosaurus. Think of, like, a plesiosaur, like Loch Ness Monster. Okay. It looks kind of like that. So, he's presenting the skeleton of the Elasmosaurus when Marsh points at it and goes, I think the head is on the tail, and, like, pulls the head and, like, is like, you idiot. Yeah, of course. You stupid idiot. And then Cope is like, and, like, runs out of the hall, you know? Sure. Humiliated. Sure. Totally shamed. Yeah. Yes. So, that story is basically exaggerated because as these two became rivals, Marsh essentially, because actually it was Cope's mentor, Joseph Leedy, who pointed this out, just sort of like, hey, by the way, you know, you know, but then Marsh heard this and was like, I'm going to just constantly, you know that time when you put the tail, when you put the head on the, he's like rubbing it in. Yeah, yeah. So, and that basically severed their friendship for good. Okay. Until the end of their days. Okay. So, have you ever had a rivalry with somebody? I'm, like, trying to think. I think the, like, the worst rivalry I, no, I don't think I have. I think in high school I was, I had a bully. Sure. But I wasn't a bully back. Yeah, I feel like this, I mean, I kind of was because I, once I got a microphone in my hand, I said, I mentioned that I had a bully and maybe said her name at one point. Whoopsie, so sorry. Whoops. I was, look, it was a long time ago and I, hopefully no one has boxed her. I look, I do feel guilty about it actually. So yeah, I've had a rivalry. We have one now because I said something, sorry. I know, I, yeah, I've never really had a true, like, friend to now we are active enemies, you know? Right. Like, there are like fake beef that I start with people. Like I was starting beef with Jessaly, Jessie Buckley who won the Oscar for best actress last year. 'Cause she. Love that you just start beef with someone like that. Okay. 'Cause she made her now husband get rid of his cats. So, you know. Oh, that, you know what? That's a good, that's a real rivalry. You know, or there was a film school, this very famous director, Mike Lee, who made one of my favorite movies. But when he was, when I went to London film school, he was a total ass to all the students. And so I like was very saucy back to him. So. Hmm. He probably doesn't remember me, but you know, it was like, oh, one of my favorite directors is a total asshole, but you know. I've had that. And I stood up for a friend, you know, in the class. That's great. Like, but when you're beefing with the director of the film school, the first week of class, you're like, maybe I'm not gonna be here for very long. Yeah. No, I think, I wish I had like a juicier one. I mean, I really, I do actually feel pretty guilty as an adult with a fully developed brain that I had, I was a high school bully. And I think when, in the early years of the podcast, I called her out by name and now I feel bad. Cause I'm like, oh, I hope I didn't like ruin your life. But then also like it was 12 years of hell. And like, then I grew up and had a microphone in my face and I got a little cocky with it. It's really not a rivalry. It's just something I lose sleep about. That's all. - I mean, when people come into your life, they're part of your story. So it's your right to tell that part of it too, you know? - And I hope everyone here agrees on that. No, I think the biggest rivalry I have is like my, these days is like my MAGA family. - Sure. - Like, which I don't have a relationship with them, but then there's always that awkward conversation during holidays. Like, why won't you talk to us? And I'm like, oh, cause you're terrible. - Yeah. - So I don't really have like a Hamilton. - No, for sure. Yeah, and I mean, again, how many people really do have this? This is such a like, well, okay, I'll get more into it, but you know, so, you know, we're back to picturing "Jurassic Park," which just, just picture desert, Laura Dern, looking amazing, you know, and some cutoffs. - I have seen enough of it to know that she looks incredible. - Our queen. So picture the opening of "Jurassic Park" again with Dr. Ellie Sattler and Dr. Alan Grant out west in America, because that was a great place to dig up dinosaur bones. 'Cause I, you know, as much as I love dinosaurs and stuff, I've never actually like dug up a fossil. - Nope, I've done like the fake, like the gem, find the gem in the dirt. Kind of stuff. - Yeah. - I found like arrowheads in the dirt. - All right, that's something, yeah, that's something. - I found like a railroad spike. - That's cool. - Yeah, a lot. - Do you have a metal detector? - I don't, Christine does. - Oh, cool. - But, and I, she did something recently where she did like the really intense magnet and then you go fishing. - Oh yeah, yeah. - That sounded really fun. I would love to try that. - Yeah, and then there's even mudlarking in the Thames. - What's that? - So like the Thames in, they're coming to get us. No, it's a firetruck, it's a firetruck. No, in the Thames, it obviously has like a thousand years of history and just people dumping stuff. So when the tides go low, people can go and like dig around and you've like, people have found like Roman artifacts, stuff from the Victorian era, like bottles and things. - Oh, wow. I've always wanted to find a bottle at the bottom of an ocean. - With a message? - Yes, yes, with a message. Like if it were an empty bottle bag, I would waste my time. - Yeah, yeah, you want to be like dearest, you know? - Yeah, I want to find a bottle with a message. I mean, even if it was like in the walls of a house. - Yeah. - Like I, one of my friends, she, oh, that's the closest thing to a rivalry I've got. She ends up being Maga, now we don't speak. But in her house, she had a message in a bottle 'cause I guess they had some sort of party or something happened where a hole ended up in the wall. And they found, it happened to be in the exact right spot where there was a bottle. And I guess the house used to be like a frat house. And they ended up finding like a picture of all the frat brothers and stuff and like a note, which makes me wonder like, if you just happenstance broke that section of the wall, are there other bottles in other places? - I know, like how much, like what's hidden behind? - And your house is like a hundred years old, right? - It's almost, yeah. - Yeah, I just have hope that there's something in the walls for you. - Yeah, just start hammering away. - You'll figure it out. - Yeah, now I'm just thinking of, what is this feeling so sudden? You know, like I'm just like now imagining these two paleontologists like writing. - I didn't mean to compare it so much to Wicked, but it's so far very, I mean, come on. It's like, they're currently in their Emerald City moment. - Yes. - Or they've stepped away now. - They've stepped away and now it's like, Elphaba, please, you know, like. - It's a little too good. - I did dress up as Glinda. - Glinda in drag, right? - Yes, for Halloween. And then it was mostly actually 'cause Amanda, goodness, from drinking the Kool-Aid and I, we love Wicked, which is how we met because we watched Wicked together. But Amanda and I did a Wicked episode together on See Jurassic, right? So she was Elphaba, I was Glinda. - I remember the thumbnail of that and one of you just had green everywhere. - Yes, Elphaba, Amanda was covered in green. - Yeah. - And I look great in a crown. So back to the story. So yes, so, you know, the conditions for creating a fossil are like really hard. It's like really rare for things to fossilize 'cause it's like. You know, you think about like, you know, when people find like, I don't know, like a rat skull or like deer, you know, carcasses. 'Cause it's like predators will come and pick it away and then bugs and the sun can like destroy bones and everything. But like the best way for things to become a fossil is usually they fall into water and then they're covered by sediment. And then millions of years happen. And then those, you know, 'cause fossils aren't actually bones, they're minerals that have replaced. It's almost like a mold, you know? So it's. - Fossils aren't bones? - Like they're, no, they're not bones anymore. They're essentially like the minerals have replaced every, like structurally where the bone was. - So it's like a cast of a bone. - Essentially, yeah, yeah. And I'm not a paleontologist. So if I'm not explaining, I'm like, in my head, I'm like, when you're at a museum and it's like, first step to become a fossil, die, you know? - I had no effing clue. I just thought, oh my God, you found the exact skeleton. - I mean, it is like, it's like essentially if you were replaced by rock and, you know. - Fucking crazy. - Yeah, so like over, I think, I can't remember what the over under is, but like, it is like, I think over 10 million years old, you become like, that's kind of like the threshold for like becoming a fossil. - So embarrassing if you're in the nine million. - Yeah, yeah. - And you're like, oh, well, you'll, just wait. You'll be fine. - You'll get there, yeah, yeah, yeah. So obviously, not obviously, but the deserts, deserts are a great place for fossils. And like you mentioned earlier in your story, a lot of people A lot of this part of, you know, Wyoming and the Dakotas and parts of California and Nevada and stuff was all underwater during the Cretaceous period. It was called the Great Interior Western Seaway. You're so smart. I might have, like, flipped some of those things. But this is basically the area where the Bone Wars happened. Bone Wars. Yeah, places like Wyoming, the Dakotas, Colorado were the battlefield of the Bone Wars as both Marsh and Cope sent out teams into indigenous people's territories on a race to dig up and try and describe more dinosaurs than the other. So it really was, they were just racing to figure out, to just get higher stats or a bigger name in the community. Yes, exactly. Before the other person. And so, like I was saying before, Cope was much more of, like, he. Finds a bone and he's like, well, this thing is a blah, blah, blah, saurus. And, you know, it's, it, it, it stocked its prey. And, you know, like, and this gentle plant eater, you know, sat by the river and munched on plants. Like, it was more just about that storytelling aspect. Whereas Marsh is like slowly piecing bones together. Like, well, it sounds like Cope's going to win the race then if you're taking your sweet time and to study everything. There technically is a winner, but it's, it's like alien versus predator. We're like, either way we lose sort of thing. It's like. Well, we could have 10 sequels of this movie. It'll just keep, there will always, the killers will always be alive at the end. Here we are again. Talking about Reddit somehow. I don't know how we became enemies to lovers, but it happened. It's, it's happened and I knew it was going to happen. Because every time I get on that Reddit, by gone it. Is that a word? I don't know. I find it. I found out something new that I didn't even realize I was interested in. Or I get to practice my intuition. You know how much I love my intuition. Practice subreddit. Even just like the homepage where they just like recommend stuff. I'm like, okay, fine. I get it. You understand my soul. Okay. Reddit. Fine. Take it. I feel like there's quite a lot of subreddits that I was not letting myself love for quite some time. And you just got to lean in. These days I'm falling asleep because it's, it's instead of reading books, I read Reddit and I've been diving deep into this one called, what is this? And basically people take a picture of something. They don't know what it is. I love that subreddit. And it's like a gasket. And I'm like, that changed me. And you just scroll. I'm so glad I know. And like you find like wisdom and humor in the comments and you're like, what's happened? What book is this? I forget what book I'm reading. It's yeah. I know what it's like. It's really fun. That's why we turn to our favorite subreddits, whether that's the intuition practice or what is this? Whatever question you're dealing with, whatever problem you're stuck on, Reddit always has the answers. Download the Reddit app and get answers on what this is. What is this? Download the Reddit app today. Download the Reddit app. So, and I say this as no disrespect to other podcasters who have covered this story, but the idea that this pissing contest, this competition being overall a great thing leading to 142 new species named and big press for the then burgeoning field of paleontology. I do think this idea is a little bit flawed over the 20th year period of the bone wars. Not only would many of these discoveries turn out to be false, they would try and claim each other's discoveries. No, I discovered it. No, I discovered it. I discovered it. No, it's a Allosaurus. No, you know, famously it's an Apatosaurus. No, it's a Brontosaurus. Like stuff like that. They would also try. Yeah. They would try and claim each other's discoveries as their own and they would take other rent. Like other paleontologists are like, I would like to be excluded from this narrative. And it's like, I'm taking your dinosaurs too. You know, it sounds like, I mean, it's, it's very, very, you get like the inside of like geeks fighting. Yes. Oh, totally. Totally. It's just, this is just like what like lab nerds are all about. I like, I think it's so, so I love this. But it feels very antithetical to science though. And this is, this is the part where it's going to feel very anti antithetical to science, which is often they would sabotage each other's digs and destroy actual fossils to be like, Ooh, uh, you guys can't carry out all these bones. We'll destroy the ones that you left behind because I don't want cope to get them or I don't want them. Messy. Yeah. And it is antithetical to science because I I'm thinking at least the like, well now we can't, we lost evidence. You just destroyed evidence for your own. Uh, personal gain, personal gain. Yeah. And there's also been like, again, it's one of those like apocryphal sort of tales that I think both of these men lead into of like, he used dynamite to blow up my bones, you know, like that kind of thing. It's not only redistroying it, but like who can destroy it better. And also like, again, at this time, you know, it's post civil war. It's that period of American history, you know, where we're committing atrocities against indigenous groups and stuff. So it's like all of that is going on in the background. Well, these two men are sending out teams to go and dig up dinosaur bones. Sure. Like just really like painting a picture of that time. Like, right. You know what I mean? It's like, uh, a lot of selfish white men. Yes. Buffalo or, um, I just spoiled it, but cope actually went out on a trip with Buffalo bill. Like, you know what I mean? He's just like, woohoo. Like we're going to dig up some bones, you know? And it's just like, who's this? Like, you know, it's crazy kid, you know, like Buffalo bill, I guess has his own, uh, full rap sheet. So like, I feel like that should be added to the list of things that people know best about him. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, Oh, he's done all these things. Also, he like helped dig up dinosaur bones. Yeah. Or just as like a publicity stunt went out with them. And I don't blame him for the PR. That would be a cool thing to do. Yeah, no, no, of course it was. Yeah. I mean, um, so yeah, they would often destroy actual fossils. They basically ruined paleontology is reputation to the rest of the world for a while. And having interviewed paleontologists. Working today, they're basically like paleontologists now are still undoing the damage that these, that these guys did because yeah, it's like either they would destroy things, the information that people wanted to know, or because they were just like mislabeling things and renaming things. So it's like, right. That's the interesting thing. Like I learned interviewing paleontologists and interviewing museum people is that like, you know, trying to get funding for anything that a lot of times most museum stuff is sitting down. You know, in the back, just waiting for somebody to study it. Clark park only has 1% on display. Yeah. So, and so a lot of it is because of all this was done so messy, you know, these divas and it was just like, even now we're still trying to like, you know, scientists are constantly going back and being like, okay, like, let's look at their work. Was it actually up to snuff? We kind of have to redo it or, you know, which is why, like, you know, cause I don't know if you know about like how Brontosaurus and Apatosaurus are the same. dinosaur like brontosaurus was the um like is the more popular one like you know brontosaurus i do it's a little foot yes little foot essentially but brontosaurus basically was named second and the original dinosaur is apatosaurus which is at some point in the 60s or the 70s um they're like wait brontosaurus is actually the same as apatosaurus are they actually so well from my understanding and this is one of those like i just remember this as a kid you know and but essentially brontosaurus was an apatosaurus with a different long-necked dinosaur's head crazy and but now you know kind of like pluto situation they found another dinosaur that's like little foot to give to bront to give the name brontosaurus too so brontosaurus is a real dinosaur again it's just not the same one it's like brontosaurus 2.0 yes exactly okay yeah yeah so but it's stuff like that where it's like paleontologists are constantly like fixing stuff that these two men sure messed up and so like um yeah i mean we can talk more at the end about it but it's like i don't know sometimes i'm just like is competition always healthy not this time around no i mean it really i mean the fact that you're covering you're the true crime half of this i mean this is a crime against science for sure yes it is a crime against science um so by the 1880s marsh was made head of the u.s geological and sought to consolidate power and assert his dominance over cope who had been publishing way more papers okay so uh and cope was running out of family money he invested in a silver mine that went bankrupt and here is who's this it's one of them it's wendy um so yeah cope was running out of daddy's money he's investing in things like silver mines and stuff you know this is you know after obviously the gold rush had been a while ago but you know all this kind of prospect and yeah out wet have you ever been panning for gold only like as an attraction not like not like but yes it's very fun um so yeah cope was running out of money marsh was head made of the u.s geological survey um and so marsh in his position of power created a law that all fossils discovered with the assistance of the government would now be government property oh so basically he was creating a law so that he could try and steal cope's fossils back from him or not back from him but from him it's giving trump yes okay i make a law that helps me i don't know yeah it feels that way it's like well i'm just kind of like trying to scoop it all up yes yes yes but cope was a good record keeper and he avoided marsh's repo men because it was daddy's money that paid for these digs not the government right so but this law would come back to bite marsh in the end eventually okay so cope is now on the offensive he reaches out to the new york herald and like any great diva you know takes to social media aka the newspapers with a list of grievances mistakes and complaints from former employees and colleagues of Marsh in a full expose forcing him to resign as head of the U S geological survey. Holy shit. Well, like how, how many bad things had he really done? It sounds like he was the smart nerdy one who would have actually been paying more attention to the science of it all. Exactly. But I think he got cocky. I think he, he was like, I'm, I'm educated. I go to Yale. I'm the real scientist and cope is just the showman. So that's why I think this story is very interesting. Cause you're like, Oh yeah. Wouldn't like, you know, some ways, aren't you rooting for Marsh? Cause he's like the real scientist, but like cope was actually kind of a nice guy. And I think Marsh maybe like almost resented the fact that like, was he jealous of his popularity? Maybe like that is his charisma. I think so. I think there's some element of that. Cause it sounds like, I mean, I could see him either being jealous or at least thinking like, it's not fair. Like I'm doing this by the fucking book. And like you and your little like fun attitude, all of a sudden, like you get just as much praise as I do. Yeah. And all the papers and stuff that he was publishing. Like the, the, um, the insecurity of comparison. Yes. Comparison is the thief of joy. It is. And of fossils. And of fossils. That was a great little punchy end way to end that though. That was good. Um, so yeah, so, uh, Marsh had to resign as head of the U S geological survey. And then also because of this, our government cut the agency's budget in half. So it was like, not only did Marsh get in trouble, but he also had to resign as head of the U S geological survey. But he also like ruined science for a while for people in the U S because he got mad with power. And most of his fossils, because Marsh's fossils were dug up because of government grants, most of Marsh's fossils were repossessed. So Marsh's own law. Yeah. As Taylor Swift once said, karma is a cat purring in my lap because it loves me anyway. And she actually sold that from Cope. Yeah. Just imagine Cope. Just because again, karma is, is that is my boyfriend. Karma is my boyfriend. But isn't that wild? Like that just feels like, I think that's why this story is so popular. Cause there's these kind of like cinematic moments, you know, are there movies about this? So there was supposed to be a movie with, um, there was supposed to be a movie with James Gandolfini as Marsh, Tony Soprano and Steve Carell as Cope. Shut the hell up. And by the way, how well cast that is. I know. So like Marsh and then James Gandolfini as the like serious scientists and then Cope, like imagine like Steve Carell and like massive, like when, uh, Michael Scott is being like really ridiculous, you know? Oh my God. That would have been, so what happened? It was in product. It was starting to be in production. And that was when James Gandolfini passed away. So they were literally about to start making it. Wow. They really should have just cast another person. I know. I mean, I'm sure there's been like TV movies and stuff based on this. And there's obviously plenty of documentaries and, but yeah, I, and then actually Michael Crichton who wrote Jurassic Park, he did a fictionalized book called dragon teeth, which I'm actually, I haven't read yet. Cause it was published after he died, but I'm going to do it. Cause I'm doing a Michael Crichton book club on my podcast this summer. So I'm actually going to read the fictionalized version of this story. So I'm actually really excited to like, that sounds so cool. I mean, we could compare, we could combine our passions and imagine a book where you get to time travel to the bone wars and just watch these like nerds have like their own version of like a Bravo show. Yeah. I mean, no wonder this is so interesting to the paleontologist because it has fucked up their jobs and has given them a lot of tasks even today. But also like I, maybe I'm wrong here. I can't imagine there being a lot of obvious clear cut drama like that in the paleontology world. Or is there? I mean, that feels, I mean, it feels like a high school fight. Yeah. I mean, people are people, so it's always going to be, you know, and dudes are always going to, you know, have ego in that pissing contest. Yeah. A dick measuring contest, but it's just because it is like almost like the birth of American paleontology. That's why it also, and I think, you know, the, you know, the American wet, like, it's just like, it checks a lot of boxes of like why I think it's captured people's imagination. I had no idea. I mean, I don't, I think I'd heard the phrase bone wars, but as soon as I hear war, I kind of check out. Um, but wow. And then to your point earlier, it's like, yeah, there were, um, you know, they were like, there was one example that I didn't bring up, but it was like, sometimes they would like rename each other's dinosaurs, like in each other's papers. Like, by the way, it's called like this now, like whatever big idiot source. Yeah. Yeah. Like passive aggressive. So it's like, there's records of this feud. Wow. Over 20 years. Do you know the names of any of them that got named and then renamed? I know you just did Brontosaurus, the Apotosaurus and Brontosaurus. One is the most like obvious example. The other ones are very like, cause again, not only did they discover dinosaurs, but they also, you know, ancient Marine reptiles and ancient mammals and lizards and birds and shells and other things. Well, speaking of Brontosaurus and Apotosaurus, Apotosaurus. Yeah. You've been to dinosaur land or dinosaur world or whatever it is. That's in, um, Palm Springs. Uh, Oh, Amazon. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So their gift shop is inside of a dinosaur that I thought was a Brontosaurus, but apparently there's a plaque on it that says this is actually an Apotosaurus. But I mean, how is that? Would that be true based on the head shape then? Is that? Cause yeah, that was cause basically when people think of Brontosaurus, they're thinking of Apotosaurus. Okay. My understanding of it just over the years. So is Littlefoot an Apotosaurus? I mean, you would, it's one of those things where you're like, eh, like it basically is what people thought a Brontosaurus was, you know? Sure. So it's kind of like, oh, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's kind of like, well, now I'm curious what a real Brontosaurus looks like. Yeah. I mean, it's yeah. The, the, the new Brontosaurus doesn't have quite the, like, you know what I mean? No. Yeah. Yeah. Apotosaurus is like OG Littlefoot kind of thing, but, um, but yeah. Um, so it's my last little bit. Um, by 1897, Cope was dying, living in an apartment surrounded by the only thing he had left his fossils, his wife and child had left him by then. And what is considered the final fight Cope donated his brain to science and challenged Marsh to a brain measuring contest to see who is indeed the smarter and more brilliant of the two. That is the pettiest shit I've ever heard. My donating your brain and then challenging someone else to also donate their brain is so cunty. I don't know. I don't know. It's messy. It's messy. Marsh never accepted the challenge. Marsh died two years later, also alone. So while Cope was dying, Cope discovered 56 new dinosaurs. Marsh, one, discovering 80 dinosaurs, including such icons as Stegosaurus, Triceratops, Allosaurus, Apotosaurus, and more. And that's the bone wars. That is incredible. So wait, are there any famous ones that Cope discovered? Because you kind of just listed every one I know. The T-Rex? So some people say that Cope, like, made the first initial discoveries of T-Rex, but it wasn't really until like 1905 or 1915. So like, there were some fragments that Cope discovered that people are like, you know, that's a T-Rex. But like, he didn't describe T-Rex. Like, Cope ended up doing like Elasmosaurus, which is a marine reptile and like other non-dinosaur related. And again, like I think Dimetrodon, which is like an early synapsid, which is kind of like a pre-mammal thing. I don't know. It's hard to describe. But yeah, he didn't discover any of the big ones. Like Marsh really won if we're going by like the popular dinosaurs. And that's why science is important. Yes, I. Sorry, I'm going to think about that brain one for the longest time. Isn't that wild? That's so like in-depth still saying I'm going to win. And he's a showman, though, too. You know, Cope was just like, this would be like, it doesn't really matter because like. No, but it was for the headline. Yeah. Talk about a headline. That's a great one. Yeah. Wow. I, I know you just said a lot of interesting things, but I'm absolutely if I ever talk about the Bone Wars, that is the bullet that will be at the end of every single time I tell the story. Yeah, man. Isn't that cool? Wow. Thanks, Steven. Of course. And yeah, that is a real again, I think because I've heard this story a lot and I know this story, it's like, what what's my angle to it? You know, and that's the thing I just and I'm curious about what you think, where it's just like this idea of some people being like, oh, competition like helped. But I'm like, I don't I mean, maybe, but I feel like there's it's one of those things where it's kind of a. Best of both worlds, like it's like I can see the like, yes, they were racing. I don't know. I think I'm leaning more towards it was not a good thing. No. And I think you just hear when you hear from actual paleontologists, I don't think any of them are like, oh, I'm glad that like these two men kind of were messy bitches. And like, you know what I mean? Like, I just feel like. Like they pumped out a shitload of dinosaurs. Like, I mean, that's that is cool that they were like, who knows how long it would have taken for. To be discovered if they weren't racing to do it. But they could have also teamed up in the end and just like you cover this half of the world. I'll cover this half and we'll just find them as fast as we can. Or they could have worked together. I mean, they were friends. They like were friends. Like, I think that's what makes it kind of tragic, too. Yeah. Or they could have at least found like like different categories. Like, I'll look up the marine stuff and if I find any like non marine, I'll give that to you. And that's they could they could have worked it out any in a bunch of different ways. Yeah. Also, there's so. dinosaur bones, especially at that time that, you know, know hadn't been discovered yet like they could have just easily not destroyed each other's or you know not destroyed their own like there was just all these little petty human male ego things that like yeah contributed to to me thinking like it's at least worth stepping back and being like was this a net it just yeah like it maybe it's not a net positive that's all i'm saying about it you know and all it is a fun story but all they had to do was just talk out their feelings yeah because but i kissed and kissed a little bit like i feel like honestly what they should have done if i were solving it for them i feel like they should have obviously teamed up i think they should have said like look marsh you're more the science geek i think we need you in the lab this guy's got the charisma that he could go on a whole like campaign and get everyone super jazzed about dinosaurs and open up all their museums or i'll open up these parks so we can go digging and he could have really like been the the voice to get everyone interested and then that could have brought even more scientists on that would have found even more dinosaurs faster yeah i mean that's more like a steve job steve wozniak thing because you know they work together to create apple i think they i think that should have been what happened there yeah but um because also it could have been like nerdy alphabet and like pr galinda oh you know what i'm saying pr galinda um yeah thank you thank you for being here that was so nice wait i want to read my sources oh oh go for it i gotta credit the dollop they did a really great episode on this back in the day stuff you should know did a really great episode um the book the rise and fall of dinosaurs by steve brussati history this week drunk history fun tony hale plays um cope oh that's great and then um what's the guy in law and order i'm sorry christopher maloney elliot stabler yeah so you really this is crime indeed you really yeah christopher maloney played um marsh that's hysterical um my sea jurassic right collaborator andrea siaflo aka strange bird art um natural history museum of la natural history museum or field museum and then a nat geo article by the amazing riley black very cool well i'll read mine too damn uh i had to i had to come prepared you know i was like i'd work with so many people who are so good at you know citing their sources that's very sweet i i'm pretty sure we put our sources in uh below on our on our youtube so hopefully it's there um but just in case you're interested in reading my sources i'll read mine too damn i had to come prepared you s f gate uh ro robo japan blog spot oc historical blog spot upi uh oc parks oc register and then a facebook page about la history i love it i love it thank you for being here please shout out where people can go listen to you well you can listen to me on sea jurassic right yeah i interview again m's been on talked about we talked about back to the future but i've also had musicians scientists i did a lot of research on music and i've also done a lot of research on music and i've also done a lot did a series in the fall last year called the back to school series where i interviewed paleontologists science communicators um ali ward from ologies who i worked on ologies for many years um the errands from this podcast will kill you they're you know a disease ecologist um interviewed a shark scientist amani weber schultz um some of the host of eons like i don't know i love talking to scientists because they're like it's one of those things like as a creative person i'm like science and math are really hard and then you actually meet scientists and you're like oh my god these people are creative and charming and cool too and i'm like wait that's not fair you can't be good at science and be artistic and charming and creative but everyone i interviewed is great and um yeah i don't know that's a fun series to start with so very cool patreon see jurassic right and follow stephen ray morris stephen ray morris on all the things and usually this is where we just say and that's why we drink but i think we should sign it oh i know this is and and that's that's um why wait what's why again is it this why why we drink drink i want to date with wars carty says rules rocker ass this is the love story of real hinge couple carty and rocker written and read by me nicola dynan listen to the free audiobook now on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin 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