E229 - Dr. Saul Ebema - God Will Make A Way

[Music] Welcome to the Grief Dreams Podcast, but we have conversations with guests about their life, loss, grief, and of course, grief dreams, which can be dreams of the deceased. If you want to know more about the topic and your host, please visit the website, GriefDreams.ca. To support the podcast, please go ahead and rate it. In additional ways to support the show, please see the episode show notes. Before I move on with the show, I would like to give a territory acknowledgement. Long before Canada was formed, the style of people were the original land stewards, and they have lived here since time immoral. They continue to live in the unseated style of territory known to settlers as Frazier Valley and lower Frazier Canyon of British Columbia. We recognize and honor the contribution the indigenous peoples have made and continue to make to our community and the topic of Grief Dreams. [Music] Welcome to the Grief Dreams Podcast. Thank you again for tuning in. I am your host, Joshua Black, and I am here with a special guest, Dr. Saul Ibama, who is an expert on spirituality and grief at end of life. As president of hospice chaplaincy and director of Breepin Services for one of the leading home health and hospice providers in the United States, Dr. Ibama draws on over 20 years of experience as a chaplain, minister, and Grief counselor. Through his podcast and online education, he is advancing compassionate, inclusive, end of life care that helps diverse communities find meaning amid terminal illness, death, and bereavement. Thank you so much, Saul, for being with us today. Thanks for having me. That is quite a long introduction there. Hey, you did nervous. I bet you could do that. I bet you could be a lot longer for whatever thing that you do. And in there, with 20 years of experience, I know that's, you know, like I'm really, I'm not in that deep yet. And I can only imagine how much knowledge that you do have. So I'm really excited to talk to you again, because I was able to come on your podcast, which was really really nice and very informative too. I love what you're doing with that. So the podcast is the hospice chaplaincy show, if you want me to say it. And yeah, and you're just like interviewing a lot of people about their experience with that end of life and during the hospice, and you brought me on to talk about Grief Dreams. And you mentioned that you've really experienced your own. And also you hear about these dreams at end of life that also during bereavement. And I think that it's interesting to bring you back on this show now for us to hear more of the knowledge in what you've sort of seen over the years. You know, just, you know, meeting you has really helped me learn something that I never thought much about. You know, I've gone through my own personal grief and I've had those nightmares. And I hear a lot of people talk about these grief dreams. But it's something that I've never taken as seriously. Until I met you in December, an interview on our podcast really. So you've contributed to enlightening me about this and taking it a little much more seriously than before. So I'm grateful for that. That's beautiful. I'm happy that it did that, right? And that's sort of the whole point because it's we're trying to educate ourselves and normalize what actually is going on in the bereavement process. But also value with these experiences that we have that let's say like our culture just doesn't really talk about. And we need sometimes that academic knowledge to bring it up to light to say, no, this is important. And this is different than normal dreams. And it can impact the grieving process positive or negatively as one sort of journeys through that. And if we can help those people in whatever way to just give them a space to be able to share some of these experiences. Well, it wouldn't be where it is today. I think that's sort of the whole point. It's like we talk about it. Then people can normalize it because if we don't, people keep it in. And they might, you know, interpret it incorrectly or think that something may be wrong with them. A lot of times it's just part of the grieving process. We just don't know enough about it. And so I'm glad that you took another look at that. And so did you want to sort of talk about maybe your own loss and maybe the dreams that you had that were nightmarish? Yeah, I can just share a little background. I grew up in South Sudan in my childhood. I think even up to today, South Sudan was a war zone. So my group in a war zone. And it was really challenging. And in 1989 when I was 12 years old, my village was attacked by the government militia. And it was evening we were just sitting for dinner and all of a sudden we had gunshots outside and people screaming for their lives. And my father said, you know, just stay in the house. See, let me go outside to see how we can escape this. And before you can even leave the hut at the house, you know, the little hearts, the government militia pushed him inside. And they came, they tied, my brother was 14. I was 12. They tied us together. And then they put the focus on punishing my parents and they beat them. As if that was not enough, they took my shedders and began to chop them into pieces and poured gasoline and lead them on fire. And then they went. As a 12 year old watching your parents dying, I thought, a part of you dies. And through a series of miracles were rescued and taken to a refugee camp in northern Uganda. And I remember I suffered through a lot of depression in that refugee camp. And I had a lot of nightmares. I kept replaying the death of my parents. And sometimes it's like I kept replaying some people chasing you with my shedders trying to kill me too. So those are the early, early introduction to grief dreams. And it came in that way when I was in a refugee camp, but 12 years old. Wow. Thank you for sharing that. That is so horrifying. And yeah, you would expect to have nightmares after that, especially like that feeling so hopeless in those moments and having a sort of witness that, especially as a child, right? Where you're just trying, you don't have, there's nothing good to done anyways. And to try to process that, I don't know what that's like, you know, like as I said, like my dad died in a very different way. And so how did you, how did you even process that? Like you're here now, you're helping others, you're smiling and laughing with me off air. So how did you even get there? Because I think that's such a huge piece. Was it the spirituality piece that kind of like helped shift you to a place of, I don't know, optimism or positivity? Like, how did you get from that to we were today? Yeah, it's so long, Johnny. I think it took years when I was in a refugee camp. I went through like, I could sleep for days. I think I went through societal ideation and a lot of distressed trauma contributed to a lot of the nightmares. It took a while so they brought some therapies to help provide a sense of counseling. And there were some missionaries that came to the refugee camp and brought soccer balls. I think I, I tell people the soccer ball became like my best friend. You know, I had my own soccer ball. It got me out of bed because I couldn't wait to get up in the morning to go and kick the ball and play with my friends. And also I admired the ability of the soccer ball. You know, when you hit it hard on the ground, it just the harder it bounces back. I admired the sense of bounce by the ability of the soccer ball. And slowly, I'm like, I need to be like this. I need to bounce back. So when I was 15, something else happened when I was 15, the young boys in the refugee camp began to, to disappear. One day you're playing soccer with somebody and the next day they're gone. So there was a lot of terror in the refugee camp. What is happening to the boys? Now in the refugee camp, we did not have the luxury that I have now. Now if I want water, I just go to the top and get some water. But they were used to go to the well, you know, in the forest, much farther from the refugee camp. So when my brother and I went to fetch water one day, the government, the Sudanese people's liberation army, the militia group that was fighting against the government, they kidnapped us, they kidnapped my brother and I. And they took us to a jungle that is where they had kidnapped most of the boys. And they trained us to fight as guerrillas soldiers against the government. Who are there for about six years in 1999? My brother and I were decided to escape. And then one of the boys told the army commander that those two brothers are planning to escape. So when the night came for us to escape and we're running, they began to shoot at us and my brother was shot dead. I remember going back and thinking I really want to die because I lost everybody that meant something to me. Yeah, so how did I bounce back? It's a series of miracles. So after I went back in the year 2000, I was able to escape. And the government militia was throwing bombs where we were hiding. So I was able to escape and I ran for a long time. By a miracle, I found myself in the board of Uganda and Sudan and there I met some people and I told them, can you help me and nobody help me? But somebody bought me a bus ticket from that village to compiler, which is the capital city of Uganda. It's like maybe a dollar, but it changed my life. So I take the bus and I end up in compiler and I get off in compiler and I don't know anybody. So I became homeless and I was sleeping in the streets and eating from the garbage cans there in compiler. But even there, yeah, the moments I got to sleep, I think the nighttime was not good. never felt pleasant because there are a lot of nightmares where they're from the killing of my parents or from being a gorilla soldier where people are shooting at you. And I was challenging. So one day in compiler, I found somebody that, these people that drive semi-s from country to country, some transporting goods. And that guy is like, I'm going, I'm traveling to Tanzania and this, you know, if you wanna come, I had nothing to lose. So I began to travel with them and I had no passport, no travel document. And when we arrived at the border post to cross over, I would hide with the goods and then after that, I would cross over to the next country and continue. So it was a long journey to Darisalam, to Zambia. Then we ended up in Johannesburg, South Africa. And in South Africa, it told me, okay, this is a place where you're going to be fine. You gave me some money and you bought me some clothes. Just go find a motel. You find other people from your country here. And as I was walking for the first time in my life from the jungles to a world-class city, you know, Johannesburg. So two criminals come with a gun and they take everything that this guy had given me. And I had no idea that streets had names. So I could not locate where this friend was and I went back to living in the streets of Johannesburg, South Africa, eating from the garbage cans. And then one day, as I was walking, you know, when you're homeless and you're walking on the streets, people see you and they move over to the other side of the road. But this day, these two guys were in a deep conversation. And I'm thinking, okay, they'll get over to the other side. But they kept coming. Then as they got close, I had them speaking a language from Uganda where I was in the refugee camp. And I'm like, hey, brothers, because I was there for about three, four years. My brothers, can you help me? And they were shocked. That's a street man in Johannesburg could hear their language. And they're like, no, we can't help you. But it's a pastor that helps people like you. And they introduced me to pastor Revan John Dungu. He had a church called Johannesburg, Bethany Baptist Church. And he had about 15 refugees living inside the church. And that is where it took me. I began to live inside the church. And I think my rehabilitation started there. - I don't even know what to say. Your story is so traumatizing. And once you start to build the hope of something else happens. And then it's like you're in a very similar state where you don't know what's going on and why me. What am I gonna do? But then there's like the, it's always had little like active kindness at some point that allows you to sort of get that hope back up. And so I think that's beautiful that you've had people on the way to provide you some sort of, I guess, all of branch or path to sort of feel that again. 'Cause I can't imagine what that path would have been and you're telling it, but it's still like, I know there's a lot of stuff to use, can't share and a lot of stuff and pain that just can't come. But like I don't, I say like I've never been in that position. And I never want anyone to be in that position. And for you to have to sort of go through that to be here, it's just heartening that that happens in this life. And so I guess now you're with this pastor and that rehabilitation started happening. And so what was some of the things that you found most beneficial for you? - And the thing is even there, okay, so I'm inside the church. And now at least I'm having a sense of the ability to reflect, the ability to have a community that actually loves me. So it's the first time to be in such a wonderful community. But after a month, I didn't know it then, but the South African government, the police had the license to profile, which means that they could see you walking and then they could stop you and say, you don't look like a South African, where's your passport, where's your visa? So one day, just I was hanging out in the church, I left the church to crossover to the street and there's a park called Beréapart. So I was going to the park just to hang out with some friends and the police talk. And they're like, you don't look like a South African, where's your visa? And I had no visa and I was taken to a deportation camp a place called Lindella. There you have one meal at the 3 p.m. until the next day at 3 p.m. And they were processing to deport me back to Sudan. So I was there for about 40 days. The thing is because I was forced to fight against the government. If I was deported to Caltrum, I was going to be put on the firing squad. I was going to be killed right away. So miraculously, I don't know whether it's from the church. The lawyers for human rights came and some journalist came and they interviewed me and they publishes it fair to deport this young man. Back to Sudan knowing that upon arrival, he's going to be killed. And the public said no, so I was released and so I went. I went back to the church and I think everything finally clicked for me. I'm like, I truly have a chance to live. So I went back to the church and I became active in the youth. I don't know how to sing. I was singing in the choir. I was the asher. I did everything. And I found a sense of purpose. And in 2001, I had no high school degree, but the church took me to the Baptist Conversion College. They're like, your life experience is what the high school degree came here and studies. I went to the Baptist Conversion College. And so being able to study and find the purpose, helped me to overcome. And after three years, there was top of my class. And I got a professor's scholarship to come into my masters and doctor that northern seminary here in Chicago. But yeah, so I think the support of the loving community, the church community and the school and those things helped me to find a sense of purpose and to begin a journey of healing and to become a healer in the process. Wow. Yeah. I think you're absolutely right in the past. It was right too. On the sense of the lived experience is worth so much more. And just with our conversations, such a set of you are a healer, you're such a loving individual. And so what led you into that end of life and then bereavement area? Because one would think that one may want to stay away from that given one's own experiences of trauma and death. And so what led you into that area? Yeah, I think, yeah, it's a process of reflection. So I had time to look back over my life from like I've survived all this. And then when I came to the US, I was doing my internship. I became a volunteer for a hospice in around 2006. And when I realized how people are scared of the topic of death and dying. And yet this was my life. I figured maybe in a weird way that my experiences of loss have helped me to become a companion of somebody who is going through what I've already been through. And so it gives me the opportunity to just walk alongside them and provide the comfort because I've been through it. I've seen what death can do. I've seen what grief can do. Yes, I had nightmares like I told you. And I had it up until maybe 15 years ago. Even some time like now, I've decided to begin to write down my story and sometimes, yeah, it's like you're being-- So I've never had time actually to sit and interpret the meanings of those nightmares that I have. But talking to people who are grieving to I hear a lot of stories about their dreams too, which are much more peaceful and much more loving. So why is it that some people get this peaceful loving dreams? And then there are people like me, maybe because of the trauma, it's had to find that sense of what do you think causes that? Definitely. I think trauma is like the number one thing. Unresolved emotions is another one that you sort of see just in literature. And that even comes with PTSDs or see a lot of these nightmares when it comes to the deceased. And so with that, it doesn't mean that you're never going to ever have one, which I think is interesting. It just hasn't happened yet or you haven't remembered that yet. But so when people share these dreams, you ever get jealous that like, where's mine? Like this is going to be a very loving dream. What's going on with me? I'm happy for them. The other day, one of the ladies I was counseling, she lost her mother. And she's like, one time I was in bed and then in my dream, I was sleeping in bed and my mom opened the door. And she stood by the door for a while. And then she walked over by the bed, lay down and put her arm around me. She didn't say anything, but it felt good. Yes, I hear. I'm like, that is fine. I think I tried to let them know that probably is a sense of closure, probably is an affirmation of continuing bond, continuing love. I know that stuff. So happy for them. That's good. Because that's one of the questions I got a lot when I first started. A lot of people felt bad that other people around them were having these very beautiful dreams. And they didn't have a dream or they're having nightmares, as you were saying. And it just can complicate things because especially if someone's spiritual, what does that mean? Like, visitation wise and whatnot. And so it's a very interesting topic that I think we just need to talk about a little bit more to understand. like what are people dreaming about and like how is it making impact in people's lives? And so it's nice how you're seeing a lot of positive dreams from your clients because that's some of the things that we saw just in the research that you know people are tend to have more positive dreams just in general than the negative. The other thing is that people who do experience trauma will also sometimes have some of these positive dreams that really help them through it. So there's still a lot to I guess understand when it comes to who's having what and why, but these dreams can sort of shape like shape us in who we are and how we see topics in many ways and with all the like the the experiences you had never really had that and so like it's makes sense how maybe you didn't want to talk about it you didn't want to ask other people about it because maybe that's that's what they're having to right so like why even bring it up right and but not your service being like a different side and I think that's what the research kind of like brought in because I would expect more people to have negative dreams that the sea is just based on the research on dreams in general because western research anyway so shows that a lot of dreams represent a waking life and so for in a in a grieving state or sad or traumatized we're gonna have more negative dreams but yet when the deceased is a part of the imagery they tend to be more positive and so there's some other function going on as you're saying with the continuing bonds piece and stuff and so I really do hope you have one of those dreams you know moving forward in the future. The thing is even when I've never had a dream where either my parents or my brother any relative is in it so the nightmare is other people either trying to kill me or some snake strike to bite you know so I was in yeah so um so that is such a much more confusing and that I've never had a dream where my parents were in it but there was a period when I was going through strong societal ideation in the marital comp or even in the refugee camp where I could hear like the voice of my mother say God will make a way for you the thing is God I heard it but my mother I love and so that was much more comforting in a way that is that is the only experience. That's really beautiful and you hear you hear that with people and this is one of the other things that people don't talk about much I've done some research on continuing bonds in that place with like these externalizing continuing bonds where it's like you hear their voice sometimes you'll see the disease or you'll smell them but you heard your mother and what a beautiful line that God will make a way and do you believe that now? Yeah yeah now I don't believe that but in that period I did not believe that because I was like if God was that powerful then God should have served you from you know being taken from me you know so yeah it was just annoyance but I loved my mother and so yeah those voices I had for a long time from the refugee camp in the military as a gorilla soldier I've had a voice for a long time yeah wow well I'm glad it got you here and when we're another right and you can look back on that and say oh what was that about because you know I think it's within the grief journey we're always learning and I bet you if you ask other people they would say they've heard or seen or even like smelled the disease so had these like externalized continuing bonds and we don't know much about that to this day like so like some of the research I did it was actually pretty common for people I think it was around 50% people were having this experience within the last month and so it's like it's when you start looking at like what don't we know about the grief journey there is a lot and so I think it's really about increasing our grief literacy throughout you know our time that we have here so that the next generation doesn't seem like it's it's odd to talk about like it's just this is just part of what happens when we're grieving and it happens to people who are atheist and people who are spiritual like it's a human experience and so that is very interesting to me that it's not based on your belief or say you're maybe your interpretations of the experience is based on you know what you believe but in general I think a lot of it's just confusing for many people and so when you're bidding with people at end of life I'm really curious of you know like what do you what do you hear from them like what are what are their thoughts at end of life in most cases in end of so there are two parts in end of life where I work before the patient dies and after the patient has died now before the patient dies in most cases what I hear from my patient is that they're in most cases towards the very end they begin to talk to their dead loved ones or sometimes it's like there's this visitation there's this strong visitation but they are in a different state whether they're dreaming or having some hallucination they're having amazing conversation so there's a part so that is those are the most common experiences I hear as a patient me as the dead but then after the patient dies and I helped the families with grief counseling and I hear a lot of also visitation stories but the one I recently was much more confusing because this guy says the sister came back in his dream but then the sister totally ignored him and didn't want to talk to him and so yeah so that is a visitation dream right but how should somebody interpret something like that so those are some of the things I hear when I talk to my clients that's really interesting to hear because I know we had someone on the podcast dr. Christopher Kerr and he's from Buffalo hospice and he's done a lot of work with dreams and visions at end of life and basically trying to normalize that on how common it is it's not delirium it's actually a part of the dying process where people are dreaming or yeah talking to the deceased or seeing the deceased in many ways and a lot of times it's helping they're very positive and they're helping them with the transition from life to death but I think it's such a beautiful thing that there is that moment where it's just trying to relieve suffering and fear and the unknown of what's going to happen as we move forward and yeah and so that's really nice to sort of see that and you see it comforts them as for the other person the that's actually I've heard that theme a lot where the person ignores them and it's really trying to I think figure out how may this relate to waking life and their feelings and so it may not actually be like a visitation per se it could just be a manifestation of what one is actually dealing with within their own grieving process and so it could be a reflection of their emotions themselves of guilt or regret or something like that because then the question is like what are you feeling and why you know like these are something that you didn't get a chance to say and so it's really understanding what maybe some of the blocks that the person may be having for that dream to even exist because and more in general like doesn't make sense like if it was spiritual and the person's loving why would they ever do that they wouldn't right and you can sort of see the gambit of loving greens that people have so this is seem to be probably uncharacteristic of the individual and so then if it's uncharacteristic then it could be based on what's own emotional grief that they're trying to work through and I think that's why I like dreams in the way because you get to talk about things you may normally not talk about or for people to think about their grief in ways that they never really thought about it before to sort of understand like maybe there is something that I'm missing or am I maybe I am trying to deal with something they're not acknowledging in waking life and so these dreams can really help I get to produce some of those conversations so like when they asked me like the lady who told me the mother came in watched us was lifting went and laying bed and hugged her but she did not speak she did not say word and yeah I just told him this is an affirmation of love but is that common and why is there no word spoken asking a lot of great questions they got to say I get a chance to come to a next because people ask me these are things I never used to think about I might be just brushing off simply that you know she maybe she's she needed she thought maybe if you need that comfort and I think every aspect of love is different and the hug and the touch probably meant a lot maybe that was something in there every day I always ask questions like when someone tells me a dream whatever I just like further asking questions about it because it's it can be based on the relationship a lot of times and so tell me more about times she's hugged you when you're in need you know like that's sort of like to interpret a dream a lot of people is like what like what does it mean I'm like I you know I don't really know I don't know you I don't know your experiences but I can ask questions on it and maybe you can sort of can can can cock sort of an interpretation from it but it is interesting how they don't sometimes they don't talk or if they do talk it's very short and a lot of times they say they have to go like the dreams are shorter and so there's a lot we just don't understand but there's a lot of beauty in that and so I always would ask too so if she's like I'm not sure why my response would be what do you hope she would have said and then in that moment she can let you know what you what she hopes to hear and that's a conversation itself and so we're just furthering the conversation that a dream has provided us in like this moment of time that allows someone allows the the grief counselor or the person listing to honor the dream but also provide further conversations on it so it's not like oh interesting and then you change topics like no let's actually talk about this like there's probably some really interesting stuff here that you may not have thought of that can actually lead us into really beautiful conversations to know for me to know more about you and for you to share a side of yourself that maybe you haven't shared before. So for me in my earlier years in a refugee camp like the dreams I was having constantly in the earlier just it and weeks after my parents were mad at it's like it's like my mind would replay that same scene is that still considered a dream or an out wake up screaming you know spreading and screaming and because my mind is replaying all that that night that moment and is that also considered as a dream or is a psychological. If you're sleeping in so considered a dream but it's definitely if it's like that repeated nightmare it's definitely it's the trauma that's trying to be processed you know like you can have those flags. and waking life too, which you might have had also. And so the same thing can happen in your dreams. And so sometimes that imagery can change and then that sort of like the theory of how you know that dream is being integrated in a process. And so there's a different way of talking with people and exploring those dreams when it comes to the trauma and the reliving of it. And so it just takes like a little more training on that. But you know at the same time, it's like they've stopped, which is really great, but like that complicates everything because then you're not getting the sleep you need, which the sleep helps process everything. - I was scared of sleeping. They were, well, for years I was scared of sleeping and I had to take some sleep out to sleep. I was scared because the night I would be happy during the day and the nights were just a torture, constant torture. Every time I fell asleep, it was wake up screaming. - And I think that's one of the reasons we need to talk about that because there was, I think a lot of people in that position, like you'd after grief and after trauma that, there are ways to help with that. And what's interesting is research has shown that if you work on the dream, it actually helps the trauma. So sometimes you can work on the trauma which will decrease the dreams, but you can also go the opposite way. It will work at the dreams with the help decrease the trauma. So there's different approaches to help people heal on the journey. But we don't, if you don't talk about it, people don't know that they can get help for those. - So what you're telling me is that I could have got help and become better sooner. - Well, I think everyone has a journey, right? And I think we always look back and say, "Oh, if I did this, I could have been quicker, or healed a little bit quicker," or whatnot. But at the same time, I'm here. And I think that's the most important thing, is that we're here now in a position where we have hope, where we can sort of support people. And that's where we lie. And we can help the next person. So maybe their journey's not as difficult because people around us may not even have known it. Anyways, the research wasn't even around back then when you're with everything that happened to you anyways. So there was ways to help, but just people wouldn't have known about it anyways. - Yeah. - No. - And so this has been just a really fast-dang conversation. And I really thank you so much for just opening up, 'cause that's a lot to share. That's a person I didn't know about. And definitely wasn't in your bio. (laughs) I was really like the 20 years experience was enough for me to sort of be an ob, but then like what you've been through, the horrifying nature of the beginning of your life. But to get here where you are and to people who share and help people, it's such an inspirational story. And I can't thank you enough for sharing that and to finding a way through. Because as you said, there's a lot of times you had the suicide ideation, depression, that would've been easier to sort of just find a different path and do something differently. But you've really found a way. And whatever that is, and whatever that spark is in you, I know that's helping a lot of people find a way within their own life and find hope within their own life as they go through what they're going through. - Thank you, thank you very much. - And so our last question that we like to ask our guests is that if you could have a dream tonight of someone who has passed, what would that dream look like to you? - It would look a bit of a dinner with my mom. I would love to. Because I feel like she saved my life in those difficult moments. I didn't think I could live another day. And I could hear her voice. So yeah, a deal for dream would be just having a nice meal with her. - Let's beat. Oh, that's nice. That's so nice. And would it be a- - Could I throw it in my watch? (laughing) - Nothing wrong with that. (laughing) It's not gonna be wrong. And I'm curious that you have like a certain outfit you'd want her to wear. - No, no. I think just seeing her, just seeing her, cooking up a storm for you. There you go. (laughing) - I liked that. And I really hope you do have one of these dreams moving forward. And please let me know if you do. Because I know even just talking about it can trigger people having these types of dreams too. So I've heard that. So if you do, please let me know. And please stay in touch. I really want to know more about your journey as you move forward and also support it in whatever way I can. And so for all the listeners, working people find you, find your podcast. - You can find the host piece Chaplain to show on most of all the podcast platforms. But I mean, I don't want to be found. But if you find me that will be good too. (laughing) - You're a light in a time of darkness. Of course you'll be found. (laughing) - I'm around, yeah. - And is there a website that they can go to to? - Yeah, no, no, it's okay, you're assisted. You can go to hospicechopeless.com and you'll find me there and feel free to reach out. - Yeah, amazing, amazing. And so thank you so much for providing that information. And we do hope to serve stay in contact as we move forward. And so if you ever have any clients, have questions on dreams, feel free to email me. I'm happy to sort of help out with that. - To help your job as you move forward too. - Awesome. Thank you my brother. I think through this podcast, we found a strong brotherhood here. So yeah, we'll definitely keep in touch. - Excellent. - Thank you. (laughing) (upbeat music) (upbeat music)