E1219 - Going Deeper w/ Sarah & Michaella: Love Is Blind Boston

Michaela, Sarah, welcome to the show. Hey, I'm so excited. I'm so excited to have you two. I'm glad we're excited. I wasn't sure what kind of mood we would bring in. We're in a good mood. Very happy to be here. This feels like a rite of passage. Yes. I've listened and watched so many of your episodes. It's very surreal to be here. We made it. All right, we did it. You only had to go through an emotional whirlwind to get here. I was traumatized, but it's fine. How are your hearts? How are you feeling post now that everything's in the can, the reunion, the show, the marriage, the divorce? I feel lighter. I didn't realize how much that was hanging over our heads a little bit. Michaela, how are you feeling? I feel good. The whole thing is very unexpected for me. I went on to get married and find love and I left with a girl gang. Not only the girls from the show, but online. Just being able to support women and hold a mirror for them to make choices in a similar way to I did has been such a gift. That's great. I love that. I feel good. Are we down to dive into all the unfun stuff? I'm curious how long before. How long was your breakup before the reunion? I left in April. And then your October reunion, what? October. It felt fresh for you. It did feel fresh and I think that's because we maintained contact. I also was living with a friend and then in Boston, leases are up end of September. So I had officially moved out in September. Like everyone in Boston moves in September? No, it's the worst thing. September 1st is a big thing. There's so many colleges, so the lease term, always starts September 1st. It's wild. So y'all were still living together in September? No, like all my stuff was there. Oh, I see. Yeah, so it just wasn't like a super clean break. And I guess having. Because watching it, we didn't get a ton out of you. We heard from Maneha, we heard from Mikayla. Which I was so glad that your girls had your back in that moment. Do you wish that you would have been able to say more? Yes, that's not embarrassing. I'm just. I was not expecting to cry. And then I feel like it was almost like an emotional release. Like I couldn't stop it once it started. Because that morning I felt fine. I was confident, I was happy, I had a good morning. And I went in like, this is fine. And I think it's just like all the people in the crowd, like my mom and my sisters were there, his dad was there. It was just a lot, I think. Before we kind of get into that stuff, I want to rewind with both you ladies and kind of just talk about the beginning of the pods. Because I think at this stage of the show, everyone's the peanut gallery. Everyone has hindsight. Of being like, I told you it was going to not work out for you. And then like, there's always, I'm sure you probably, as much as I'm glad you're getting support online, I'm sure you're hearing the, what were you thinking comments. Of course. So I wanted to just kind of go back to, you know, obviously we saw you and John connect. We saw you and Rob connect. But like, bring us back into the pods. And kind of, again, I think people can't even comprehend how do you get to a point of thinking this is a person you can marry. And I'd just love to hear like, what were some of the things that were really, connecting the two of you with the men that you were in the pods with? So dating through a pod was one of the coolest things I've ever done. Like to be in, it felt like I was in private. You kind of forget that the cameras are there because you're in there for so long. And just hearing somebody's voice is incredibly intimate, weirdly enough. And I think with me and Rob, a lot of what you didn't see was how much we connected on our family values, our career ambitions, but then we could go from a really deep, intimate conversation to hysterically laughing. And that it was just really fun. And I felt like every time I opened the pod door and it was him, I was excited that it was him. And I think he felt the same way. So it was just for me, like the easiest, most natural, most comfortable connection that I've had in a really long time. What about you, Sarah? I think I agree. Like we, I think it was like day three. I was like, this isn't, this just isn't for me. Like I am, so I'm struggling to talk to some of these people. And then John and I had a conversation. And it just started, something like clicked and changed for us. And it started to feel very natural. I do, the edit makes me a little sad. I feel like no one saw any like good for us. Like no one saw that connection or like the fun. Because we connected on a lot. We had similar lifestyles. Like we talked like books and the gym and like everything really. And then, yeah. And then, I mean, we had like four hour, five hour long conversations that were very easy and fun. And yeah. It just becomes, you do actually feel chemistry. Do you remember the moments that where you were like, oh, this is working or I could marry this man? Or is it just more of a, you leave the pod and it's like an overall feeling? I think for me, there was a morning that there were a couple, but there was a morning I was getting ready and I was like looking at the clothes that I packed and I was like, all right, if I was going on a real date with Rob tonight, what would I want to wear? And it was actually like the denim mini dress when he admitted that he thought I was a dud. And I also like there, there are times when we night date and I'm in the lounge and everybody's, you know, gossiping and things. And I was thinking in the back of my head, like I really care what Rob's friends and family see of me because they're not going to have a huge opportunity to see me before we get married, if we get married. So for me, when things like that kind of started clicking and I was considering him in what I was doing there, that's when I knew. Yeah. I just started to feel, I feel giddy. And I feel like I haven't felt that in a long time. I was like, what's going on? Yeah. What is this feeling? This is fun. I don't know if the audience or when I was watching, I thought this about you guys, but we've talked about this and I know we've thought this over the years. But like when a Nahon cam on that scene, when they're talking about finances, you know, towards the end of the show and they're kind of talking, you know, they're talking about where they could live, expectations. We're watching it. We're thinking, how did you not talk about this in the pods? And I'm curious, like, you know how in real life, forgetting about the pods, when you start liking someone and you get giddy, you start, you kind of like, you stop asking questions. And as soon as you start liking someone, you almost kind of try to protect that connection in chemistry rather than actually investigate more. And I'm curious, did you feel that also in the pods? Or are you more prone to ask some of these questions? Because I honestly was a little, I was a little surprised. And I feel like we've seen this over the previous seasons where it's like, you get to the point of a season on Love is Blind and where you're like, wait, how did this not come? You have all, you hear about all this time. You hear about, we talked for hours and it's like, you didn't talk about like roles in terms of like what your guys' expectations in terms of money and living. And I'm just curious, how did you get, when did that come up in the pods for you ladies? So I really went into this experiment, like very intentionally. So I had my, I had my own things that I knew I wanted to discuss with whoever I was dating. So those things did come up for me. Like, what are your expectations of your wife? How do you see your role as a husband and a father? How do you manage your money? So those things did come up. We also are provided with a list of questions every day that we're not obligated to use. Just prompts. They're prompts. There's, you know, like a sex and intimacy day. There was one about like finances. So I took advantage of all of those, even though I prepped things I knew I wanted to discuss. Yeah. You leave the pods thinking you discussed everything. Like I left being like, we've covered everything. We're good. And it's just like a different, when you get in the real world, it's just different. And you see it start to play out. I think the other thing too is they, from like a production standpoint, I think they find the topic that they know the two of you might have some issues on or like, they're like, we want, we want to like really push them on this. And that's why sometimes you see the same conversations come up too. I feel like you and John were very open about having different views on a lot of things, but it seems like you maybe appreciated those open conversations. Is that correct? Yeah. And I do wish the viewers saw more. Yeah. Cause like I, I've, I'm very much online, even though I should get off. So I'm seeing all the feedback and stuff. Cause it just didn't feel like the feedback that I'm seeing. Like, that's not how I felt when I was in there. Like I, I, I'm seeing a lot of people saying that we just, we fundamentally disagree on stuff, but it never felt like we were disagreeing. Like, um, especially on like the abortion topic. Like we had a conversation he started with, he was pro-choice also when we hit that conversation, we, like you mentioned earlier, we were already at a stage where we were like feeling giddy. We were felt we had like chemistry were compatible. So when you're on like, say like the sixth date with someone in part in real life and something comes up and you're like, Ooh, I don't love that response. Like, do you just leave? Right. Or do you try to have the conversation and see, see, you know, Back to Natalie's question. Did you feel like, did you feel after having these conversations that maybe on a scale of one to 10, how aligned or how different did you guys feel your views were in the pods? I felt very, very aligned. Like he had presented his concern. Like you mentioned, we'd be remiss. Like there are people in the, in this country who had concerns with abortion and with the COVID vaccine who aren't anti-vax, but aren't anti-abortion. So like there is this population of individuals who have concerns and It's unfortunate that like people can't voice it but i'm always someone who's willing to listen i understand the feedback that like do you really want to be having those conversations with someone you're about to marry like it's one thing to have that conversation with someone on the street but like with a future husband but in that conversation like he presented his concerns i told him i felt that that was like misinformed um and he super receptive never defensive and then to this day is like she changed my mind so like i wouldn't have like kept going if his feedback hadn't been what it was and then i guess michaela for you and rob i i felt like the cast once you started meeting them in mexico they were like wow rob's a lot rob's a lot rob's a lot did you at the moment think that you understood how a lot rob was or what they meant yeah yeah i mean obviously it went a direction i did not expect but like i knew he was a lot like you don't see this moment in the pods but i clocked him one morning i was like hey like i have a feeling that when people first meet you they find and like a little bit a lot is that true and he was like oh my god it is i'm like all right but i have people in my life and in my family that have very similar personalities to that so it's not like scary or intimidating or whatever it went a different direction sure but it wasn't something i didn't feel like i couldn't do that's interesting when you say that because again i'm i think what's so fascinating about this show is it's it's essentially just an experiment on how we how we see our partners as we get to know them and the blind spots that can come up i mean love is blind absolutely absolutely i mean aneha seems like she could be a lot right yeah but i wouldn't compare a lot when i when i say a lot about aneha and i don't know her maybe she's not a lot maybe it's just the edit and then like rob that's two very different versions of what a lot we're all a lot i've been called a lot for my christmas monologue yeah and like okay like maybe i'm a lot too like we are for sure a lot every single one of us but it's interesting how you kind of you heard that feedback and then went to rob in a way to say oh it's it's the way i hear it from you it's just like you were almost trying to convince yourself there was nothing more there to like peel back yeah yeah does that make sense totally totally because i was just i was like i was in love yeah and when you're in love everybody does stupid shit when they're in love you know what i mean i think it's just like it's just like it's just like it's just like it's that's what love is blind is it's not about physical appearance it's not like sure we fell in love blind but like then you just because you're so in it and you're in mexico and you're having fun it's sexy and it's cool you're like sweet yeah and then he's just like yeah yeah no totally and you're like i read him like a book i know everything i need to know i'm like i love that yep i love that that is so romantic i'm in sarah can we go back to a lot was made of obviously two moments with with john one was like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't the one that we caught on camera the the cuss like when he was getting scammed it seemed like and then the part that off camera that we didn't catch that you guys talked about which was like his interaction with customer service yeah the part we didn't get to see can you describe and kind of bring us into that moment what that was actually like yeah so the airport thing was the crew actually that we were with we like all got loaded onto a van to the airport in mexico and our luggage just got left at the hotel luggage was there but so we get to the hotel and i i'm like oh our stuff's not here we realize our stuff's not there and we had told them and they were figuring it out they called confirmed our luggage was at the hotel they were still staffed there so they're like oh we'll just bring it with us so like it was already good confirmed so you were fine you were like that's where that's where my concern was was that like um and john will even talk about this now like it's something that he's working on where he thinks that if he's not like yelling it's not um bad but like tone matters so just the way he continued to talk to the staff about them losing our stuff i was like it's already done it's already done so it was handled it was handled already and almost like he felt some need to berate them in a way to let them know that they screwed up yeah just like he was like expression expressing frustration but we were like we're at the airport our bags were coming they were coming back to boston with us like we were good and i in any of those moments did you feel scared no okay i've never felt i know the comments are yeah yeah crazy but the um i've never felt like physically scared with john ever i feel like this group of men like for whatever reason was so frustrated with production they were the entire process and i really didn't understand because i had an overwhelmingly positive experience filming with producers with the camera crews the mic people like i loved them all and i just what i couldn't understand with their frustration is that this is a choice like you applied interviewed signed up to be on this show and you're choosing to remain in the experiment every day so why are you getting yeah so frustrated so i have a feeling with john it was like projection because he was just for whatever reason already frustrated yeah when i said i don't like how like you speak to people it was with production actually like it was coming up a bunch yeah and i think at the time i was like i guess it's okay like not that it's okay because that's why i had the conversation because i actually really hate that but because we were in this crazy thing and like i'm seeing the other men also get frustrated so i literally was like weird oh it's just like they're all frustrated it's just like men to support our love story was rob like a leader of the men do you think probably the only reason i mean because like usually i mean if you're at like every every show right we'll always have one or two people who are who are not buying in so to speak where they're just constantly pointing out cameras and mics and things like that and if that person is some of the other people on the show kind of i'm gonna not say look up to or follow like it can really it can poison the well so to speak so i don't maybe that it was the girls and the guys were having different experiences yeah uh back to that customer service thing with john i guess not that you felt scary but it did did it feel unnecessarily mean in a way yeah that's how i felt yeah yeah and that's why i brought it up because it's just like that's not how i want to like live my life like you said we can of course get elevated sometimes like i do i'm not like perfect but it's like these moments where it just feels it's really not needed i think the part that when you say it was it's more like a john where it's just like you're like it was done it was handled yeah you know it's just like i can't understand why people get frustrated because in those moments where it's like you can tell someone's not being helpful and someone's like it's like patronizing you and you can kind of see people you know you've seen that we've seen all the videos people it's like you can but it's a shame that he that you're like yeah it was handled and he he it's like he still needed to get out what he wanted to get out exactly in a way that you felt like was mean and i guess during that conversation at the counter that we did see where you were kind of recapping it did you feel like he was receptive i did you did at the time yeah and then it's tricky because i i know it's hard because he's learning and you're helping well that's the issue right it's like anytime there's like a positive reception and like it you're like okay this is fine so then the whole time i'm like we can do this like right he's good and then with the the my power is gonna be shut off i have to like that was the same thing where i'd like and i look like i'm like laughing because i'm like what do you do it like what if he like i got scammed once and like if you don't realize it you're like i've almost gotten scammed by the electric company yeah but then i'm like wait a minute i pay my bill every month so what do we mean it's an auto pay what am i selling why would i sell someone right now i think it was more that we were like actively filming again i people like she didn't even give him a second to chill after work it's like no we were scheduled to film like at five o'clock right the cameras are in the apartment i'm sitting there by myself like waiting for him to get in and then they're like okay when they when you got when you get in like start cooking like doing stuff and he's like i'm gonna make this phone call and i'm like what are you doing yeah so i'm like laughing because i just felt like in that moment it was like unnecessary so not what the internet seems to think it was i mean his that did happen the internet is out to be yeah a very dangerous scary reactive reactive angry did you feel like he was any of those things in the experiment i would say no even though i started to see some glimpses i think there's a big difference between being i mean like you guys know how like this all ends um being like reactive and needing to work on like anger and tone and the way you speak to people and being like a scary monster like people are calling him chris watts like that that's correct it's crazy it's and i feel bad like i do like again like i i'm sad about our edit just because there's no good and he there's just no there was no good for him speaking of edits looking scary and angry when did you first see this behavior with rob well i mean the moment that's not shown in mexico so what had happened that night was it was that last pool party that we went to and i was like oh my god i'm so fucking tired of being here and he was like i'm so fucking frustrated with production again i don't understand why and he we were by the bar and he put his hands on my face and he pulled me close and was like i'm so fucking frustrated with production i'm so fucking tired of being here and you kind of felt the pressure of his hands i don't know i i i just didn't like being i don't like my face being touched i don't like my face being touched so when we're leaving i'm very careful we are not miked okay and i say hey i don't like the way that you just touched me. it felt aggressive because my right is to set a boundary with the person that I am dating. And he didn't like it, as you see. So that was my first red flag. And it's not something I really ever wanted to talk about or I ever wanted anyone to know because I did not feel like Rob is a violent person and I never felt physically unsafe. Do you feel like when you watched that whole scene back, or actually scenes, plural, do you feel like there's anything out of context or elevated through the edit? Or do you feel like it was the energy that the viewers felt was likened to what you felt in the moment? I think the dinner with his friends was 100% accurate. I think the party with the cast meetup, the energy was way more intense than you see. Everybody there was uncomfortable. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Way more intense. Because you know him and you dated him and I didn't. I'm just watching through the show. Why are you quick to describe him as not dangerous? Because I never felt physically unsafe. And if I did, I know the chatter that's happening online. Sure. I would tell production. I'm not shy about taking care of myself. Sure. I'll call 911 if I think someone's drunk on the road. I never felt physically unsafe around him. Do you think other people did? I don't think so. I don't know. Did you? He was being an asshole, but. I personally didn't feel unsafe in that moment. More just like upset. Like, what are you doing? It was just insulting. I do think he had like a commanding energy though. Like I've seen a lot of chatter about like the men not like, and I think that, yeah. Do you think the unsafeness was a result of, I mean, there were just a lot of people around, you had other men around, you had production around, no one was alone. That's true. No one was alone. Do you feel like if anyone was alone with Rob, in that moment, they would have felt differently? I mean, I was alone with him after, and I did not feel physically unsafe. Like, honestly, like as a guy who knows other guys, like what I saw is like, I've seen that guy out at the bars. I've seen the type of guy who looks to pick a fight. Yeah. Who's definitely drinking too much. Yes. And like could flip a switch at any moment. And you don't want to be a person in a room with a guy like Rob, if he gets to that level. Now, I, again, I don't know if that's who he is. Thank you for acknowledging that. Yeah. Thank you for acknowledging that because I will say not one man, not one man on our cast has acknowledged that. Not one man from the cast has texted me and said, hey, I saw that scene. I'm really sorry for what you went through. And that's incredibly disappointing for me. So thank you for acknowledging that. And you're, you're right in your characterization. That is where he goes. And I've seen it, but I do, I just, I don't believe that he would physically harm me. How did he prepare you for going to meet his friends? He kind of didn't. So like, as I said in my interview, I can hang with the guys. I have a twin brother. I worked for my uncle's plumbing company, which was all men. And they're not like that. Okay. Like I want to be really clear, like hanging with the boys for me is like, I can talk about sports. I can be funny. Like I'm very comfortable around men is what I meant. I didn't know that, like, for lack of a better term, I was going to be like gang banged at the table. Like it was insane. Like you're attacking my career, my sexuality, my intentions, how I'm going to please my fiance, my looks, everything like, and then Rob joined in. Yeah. It was crazy. Yeah. I was so confused. Cause when he first started getting elevated, I thought he was getting mad at his friends for like going too far only to find out that he was getting mad at production for not over serving his friend for, for not being willing to over serve. And then what you didn't see is his friend had spilled three drinks in a row. So like he did need to be cut off. They must've come from somewhere. They must've. Yes. So I did, I did not know this at the time, but I got home from home, like to our shared home around like four 30. And apparently Rob had called Blake and said, Hey, I was out with the boys and I don't want Michaela to know how much I've been drinking. Will you come over and bring a couple beers and like kind of cover for me? So it was very odd. Before his friends. Cause I also, we had met my parents on Sunday and it went so well, like couldn't have gone better. We get in the car after and he's like, I can see this. Like I can see my mom fitting in with your family. Like my dad, he's from the same town as my dad. Like there was so much good there. And so then when he came home, it was just kind of weird. And he kept being like, Oh, can I go hang with Blake while you get ready? I'm like, no. I'm like, why don't you want to sit with me right now? Like, I understand I'm like doing my makeup, but like, I don't like you to pick my outfit because I'm meeting your friends and I want them to think I'm beautiful. Like I want to hang out. So it was just weird from the jump and he was so nervous. So I'm like, was this like a planned attack on me? Like, did you plan to bring this to, to camera in front of all of your friends? It's very weird reflecting on it. And you haven't heard, I imagine from any of his friends since that night. Yeah. Jay did DM me an apology. I didn't answer. Was that the, I don't remember. Yeah. The one directly across from me. That was him. Yeah. Back to like you thinking, was it planned? Do you feel like. Was it planned? Like, was it planned? Because it felt like everybody had something to say. Yeah. And then I read an interview that Rob did with Tudum and he said, you know, I just wanted to clear my name and let people know that I'm not aggressive towards women. I believe was a, was a line in that interview. And I'm like. He seemed, but isn't it kind of weird though? Or like the, the whole, like, I'm going to get canceled. Yeah. He had such paranoia. The thing that didn't add up is like, and I honestly, even at the reunion, it didn't like, I wish he would have impressed a little bit more where it's just like, listen, filming these shows is intense. It is difficult. It is stressful for everyone involved. Everyone has a little bit of a breakdown at some point. Everyone like needs like a moment. Absolutely. It's how you, it is what you do in that moment that distinguishes you between like a normal person or someone who like, maybe you shouldn't be in this environment or someone who could be dangerous or things like that. Like the way Rob was just like, well, I just like, I freaked out as if like, that was as if we're all supposed to go. Oh yeah. Oh, no, it's how you freaked out. And then like, again, like you tried picking a fight with Matt. You try, you were like aggressive towards a mean to Michaela, aggressive towards Michaela. You were, you were trying to Sarah. Yeah. You were. And then who's the girl he was talking to? Anne. You were like, you were like, yeah. Inappropriate with her just to make, you know, like, so you were doing things that were going to get you get canceled, going to get you canceled. You know, it's like, you know what I'm saying? It doesn't prophecy. It just doesn't make sense. I don't, I don't, I don't understand because I was in, I was talking about this in therapy and it's like very rarely in life. Do you get to choose your challenge? Like oftentimes challenges are just presented to you. So this whole experiment and filming and everything was a choice. And I, I, I just, I can't let go of the fact that I didn't want to go to that meetup after meeting his friends. I, I, I texted him. We had multiple conversations about it and he was like, let's go one more night. You and I, as a team, we're going to have some fun. I got you the team. And then we show up and he behaves that way. And I'm like, what, what did you have a gut feeling that it was just honestly, after meeting his friends, I was, I was that, was that the point where you were like, I was like, I can't marry him. No way. No way. Did you feel like he kind of abandoned you and let like the wolves attack? Yeah. A hundred percent. I don't blame his friends. I blame him because he, he brought me there and he's supposed to protect me. And, and, and I don't want to say manage the conversation, but he should be directing the conversation for his friends to get to know me and us to get to know each other. That's on him. His friends don't know me. It's interesting that you were like, and now you're in your head about, like, was this plan because like, I didn't necessarily see it from Rob as a viewer, but I'm curious what both you women think in terms of, I guess your cast in general, but specifically in the men, because listen, like how people show up for these shows is a, is a mixed bag. You know, obviously Rob called you out for like, you know, being there for the wrong reasons, but like, certainly it's, it didn't seem like any of the ladies were there for the wrong reason. It's so hard out there to date and to meet somebody and to even like, spend in their mid thirties to find someone who's looking for marriage. So obviously when we sign up for the show, when we go through this lengthy interview and application process, I'm thrilled because I'm meeting men on the other side of the wall that are ready and looking for a committed relationship. Like if I go on one more date with a 35 year old, that's like, I'm not looking for anything. Like I'll shave my head. Well, that's kind of the point where, cause like you have, you have Rob who is like, you know, bizarrely afraid of cameras and acting out this way. And like, it was like, what, what did you expect from this show? It almost felt like weird timing for him to be like, all right, Rez, we get close to the end. And then you had Blake who it's just like, I'm watching the whole thing and being like, why the fuck did you come here on the show, bro? It kind of felt like Blake always knew no one could end up with him as long as he kept being like, I'm never going to be here. And if you want to marry me, I'm down, but just, you know, I won't be around, you know? And it kind of felt like some of these guys knew, you know, how to sabotage the relationship before they had to say I do. Self-sabotage. That's what it felt like at Lansdowne. I felt like Rob was like, It was self-sabotaging in a way. And then I guess back to the dinner with his friends, when he brought up the aggressive comment, what do you feel like his angle was? I mean, he said in an interview to clear his name, but I'm like, what are you clearing? Yeah. Like this isn't on camera. This isn't something I've discussed. Like you see me when he says it, I look, I give him a look. I'm like, are you, what are you doing? Has any of his exes reached out? No, they have not. Cause it just seems like, why are you, why are you so defensive about your aggression towards women? Like, is this a theme? Right. And why do you feel the need to bring it up in front of a table of men? You shouldn't have to bring it up. Like, why are you doing this to me when I'm surrounded by men? Why, what's, what's up with that? Cause we did have conversations before that about, about it. Right. And I said, listen, like I was alone in Mexico, right? I know you're with me, but we also, we just met. I don't have my phone. I don't have my friends and family. If I want to set a, a boundary with you, I'm allowed to do that. And as someone who loves me, you should, the only thing you should say is I'm so sorry. I made you uncomfortable. That is never my intention ever. That's the only response. I really want to commend you for how you handled yourself in both situations. Thank you. It was a true example of, I think, survival and how to deescalate situations safely. And you really showed so many women how to do that. Thank you. And like you said at the reunion, like what a woman, I mean, you truly are. Cause it was, it was wild to watch Sarah. I'm curious how it felt watching that guy's dinner as a viewer. She had told me about it and it was hard for me to watch it. And I knew what happened and I was just like, it starts playing. I'm like, oh my God, like this, it was so much of a harder watch. I started crying cause I know her and I love her and I know how truly invested she was from the beginning. I was like, this girl is invested. Like I would try to talk to her sometimes about who she was talking to and she wouldn't even tell me. I'm like, she's so invested. She's so invested. But it was just hard to watch as her friend. And it was very frustrating. I think, um, cause we're talking about like men, in my opinion, like a man would have spoke up and said something at that table and been like, you're being rude to my fiance or like chill or you can just like guys chill. All he had to do was be like, guys, too much, too much. Like, yeah, I didn't love it. Back to you at the reunion, you had mentioned that it seemed. Seemed like a few of your peers didn't think you should end up with John. And I thought your revelation that you thought your relationship with John would end with him cheating on you. Those are some pretty big statements to make prior to saying, I do, could you just first take us back to that moment of like, why did you feel that way? What was going on in the relationship where you had such big concerns about the man you were about to marry? Yeah. I think like there were red flags, which is hard for me to watch too, because I think some of them are like. Like on display, but like we've talked about, he was always so receptive. So it was like, I felt like we were, we could make really good progress. And then you're like in the, in this experiment and you're like wrapped up in it and you're like, I can do this. Like, this is good. Like, yeah, this is great. This is how we met. How fun is this? Like I can, we can work on this together. So I definitely think I saw stuff and was just like, it's fine. Like, it'll be good. But so I think he just made comments about, he'd make comments like about women to me or like just. The way he sort of like behaved in public places. Well, even like one time he says it's at the reunion, so I don't mind talking about it. But like, he definitely like loves attention from women and it's super obvious. I prefer someone who's like more humble. Like you can be really attractive as a man and you can get a lot of attention for women, but like be humble about it. And like that to me, this wasn't the case with John. Like he really liked it. And like, so one time he was like getting married to you. It's like, I've been put on a shelf like for display, like comments like that, where I was like. What, what, like, what is that? Okay. And then my, what do you mean by that? Well, right. And then my dumb ass at the time was like, this must just be how men think. Like men just think like this. And he's just saying it out loud because we're so comfortable together. That's literally what my. Does he mean like no one else gets to enjoy? Yeah, just like he's like. He's just eye candy now or something? He's just like eye candy. And I was like, okay. Or like the thrill of the thrill, like he liked to go to the bar and he said that he doesn't want to like hook up with women, but like he'll miss the thrill. The thrill of it, right? Like, so that's where it's like, okay, is this just, is this genuinely just how men feel when they get married? And he's just like saying these things out loud to me. Yeah. I know. I know. The thrill makes my skin crawl. Yeah. Like you're going to miss going out and flirting and like. And just flirting. Could be taking a woman home that night. Like you're going to miss that thrill. No, it's supposed to be when you end up with someone you enjoy being with you and then you go out to the bars with your buddy. You're like, why am I here? Yeah. Right. Because you used to go out. To meet people. Yes. And now you're like, oh, this is stupid. Yeah. That's crazy. The thrill. Wow. I know. I'm sorry. Wow. Do you. Looking back, I'm like, okay. I'm curious. I want to be sensitive about this, obviously, because it's a sensitive topic. But he obviously revealed that he was diagnosed with MS. And it seems like he's got a pretty good grasp on it and he's dealing with it. We've all watched reality TV for a long time. Yeah. And we know. We know on these types of shows when someone has a story of a challenge, something they've had to overcome, it plays well with the audience. Do you, looking back, feel in any way John was aware of that? Here's this guy who's showed up to Love is Blind with the intention of getting married. Who's this like, I miss getting hit on at the bars. Right. That doesn't sound like a guy who's remotely close to like getting married. Yeah. And I got. I got shit from him sometimes. Him's like saying to me is like an insult that I, he felt like I wasn't ready. And it's like. Why did he say that? I think it's, I think to be honest, people like John self-project a lot. Sure. And it makes you question yourself. And it's like, what does he talk? What does he talk? And then it's like, oh, once you see it, you're like, oh, he's talking about himself. He's just saying it out loud and he's saying it to me because he's like mad at himself. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess my question is this, like, again, this, it sounds like his diagnosis was relatively recent. And it, and it sounded like he was very committed to overcoming it and making the most of his life. All of that's commendable. But looking back, do you feel like that and what he thought that would bring in terms of speaking on that was more of his. Played more of a role in him from saying, yes, I want to go on this TV show. Then, hey, I hope I find someone I can marry. You know what? That's a really good question. And I don't know. But it's still, it's still like such a big diagnosis. And, um, it is hard. Like these men have stuff, they come on just like everyone where they, they have such deep stuff they have to work through. Yeah. And then I feel like they haven't worked through it yet. And it's like, not that you need to be perfect to come on Love is Blind, but like, I only said yes, because I was like so confident in the person who I've become. And I've dealt with all of my shit. So it's like, you guys got to work through this first before you come on this show. Yeah. Yeah. Or before you like put it on someone else. And then you opened up about kind of. And mentioned dumb was one of the things that he would say to you. I respected the way that, you know, the two of you went about the reunion. I, you know, it was clear that you both knew like what had happened in the relationship. And it was like protecting each other because clearly this is viewed by millions of people. Right. But with that being said, I think it's important for people to kind of see the things that he said to you. Like, like. Was there in the moment that he said that to you, did you feel like he was name calling you and being mean? And did you kind of call him on that? Yes. How did he react to that? I think that's the problem. And I think it's it's really important and why I wanted to bring it up, because I think it probably happens to a lot of people. Yeah. Especially women. And like you were saying, it's a little more hidden than like super aggressive screaming behavior. Right. But it's still deeply harmful to the person that you're talking to. And that's something that we're in a relationship with. So it would be like these little moments we were having either maybe it was something political or maybe it was just like talking about the day. And I would say something that just like pissed him off somewhere in his brain. Like you're not even like having a disagreement. No, it was never. And I also, especially towards the end. And like she knows me, like I tiptoe my way into conversations. Like when I have something I want to talk about, I'm like, hey, so like I saw this thing online. Like, what do you think? You know, like I have a way of going about it. And I still like he. Would get reactive. Like it'd be like a snap. And I'd see it. And I used to be like that when I was younger, which is almost more harmful because I understand it. But I see it. So he's like, I can see the anger in his eye. He's got the tone, but he's not screaming. So to him, it was never conflict. But to me, it's like I'm getting called a name. And dumb was. We don't need to talk about it. But like that was me being nice. That was me protecting. Like dumb was. But it was one that actually was really hurtful. Dumb and stupid like really bothered me. And I said that to him on many occasions. Like. For some reason. These little words are really bothering me, even compared to like worse stuff. But because that's not that's not love. Right. Someone who really loves you shouldn't speak to you that way. Have you guys ever seen Seinfeld? Of course. The bad breaker upper episode. Yeah. Right. Because, again, not to not to defend anyone who's ever called their partner a name. And sometimes we have to apologize for people when we're like heated and you're just like, you know, whatever. But that episode is such so legendary because it identifies a certain type of guy. or person, but often in this case, guy, where it's just like, they're just, bizarrely like yeah they're mean and they like out of nowhere they will like is is that how john was if you whiplash sometimes yeah where it's just like out of nowhere you're like what the hell just happened yeah it's demeaning in a way that comes is was it coming out of nowhere often yes and it's like a lash so he's not screaming but it's like we we had a name for it we called it viping because we actually talked about it in the pods because like and i don't remember why it came up in the pods but i was saying how i used to be like that when i was in like high school like i just used to be like more reactive but i hated it yeah i hated it i felt so much shame about it so i was like i'm not going to be like this person and he had sort of reiterated the same i think he just hadn't figured it out yet yeah and when it becomes a cycle like repetitive and that's what it was that's when it gets harmful to the person that you're in a relationship with so dumb was on the nicer side oh yeah and if there were to be something that was on the meaner side what word would that be? like swears too so it'd be like you're a fucking idiot or like you know more of like that makes it more color yep and then um i think things that were even more hurtful was i was putting in so much effort in the marriage and he would say that like he didn't want to be married to me like you know or that that me and me me and production manipulated him into marrying me oh wow and i'm like i yeah or that i like duped him you know like i felt duped actually but that i think to be honest is a self-projection wow yeah what was it like okay you guys say i do production's done i guess bring us into like the marriage right after the show ended like what was it sunshine and rainbows at first was it quickly like oh no what did i do like i think it was pretty quick okay yeah and i but i took but i do want to say like the thing with this type of behavior is it is mixed in with good and that's what makes it sometimes hard to to make a decision very quickly about it is that like you can't make a decision very quickly about it and you can't make a decision very quickly about it and you have like good months or good weeks and i would say that to my sister because she i tell them everything she'd be like how has it been i'm like oh we had a good week yeah we had a good week and then she was like sarah like that's not the relationship that you want to be in but then i took the marriage very seriously because you were married right so of course and i do i like laugh sometimes because i'm like i wish someone had just like shaken me and been like you got married on television like it's okay you don't have to do this but i took it very seriously so it was like and he always showed remorse he always apologized he's a good apologizer yeah so it's like when that flowers get the card i got a lot of flowers so it's like when you see when you think that they're actually like seeing that how their behavior affected you and that they're going to change like okay that's fine and then it just like keeps happening did you kind of feel like a mind fuck of because on one end you're like you got married on tv you're crazy um on the other hand there's the hey i'm i'm in this relationship with the person i care about and we're married and like but we got married in such a crazy world that you you wouldn't we're giving yourself and him and the relationship too many benefits of a doubt because of how crazy you met were you like so when you're having these bad weeks and your sister's like that's not supposed to be were you were you inside thinking but you don't really understand our crazy world yes that was my i feel like that was my response to everyone and i had one friend in particular who was like trying to pull me out of it during and like now i'm like i'm sorry nelly i should have been listening to her she was really trying yeah when did this behavior of i mean obviously there was the admission of escorts uh was there other thing like because at first first it was like this text message which i think everyone was like confused like you got divorced over a text message so annoying i'm like can you please just say it was like watching a group project that people weren't prepared for you know yeah it was wild yeah but i guess because i definitely would love if you're if you're comfortable just like because again i think these these are very relatable stories sadly for a lot of people and there's the robs right and i think the internet has so many conversations about the robs about like these potentially dangerous people with bad tempers that you got to stay away from but then there's the the johns the weak men who like again it's just more of a there's a weakness there that's causes them to act out and it's not okay but like it and it's like slow they like yeah it tears you down slowly right you almost don't even see it because they can't apologize and they are sorry and they are hang on and it's all that bullshit um like when did that start and what did that look like when it started the that behavior yeah kind of womanizing so to speak quick like it was it was quick i think i felt like a lot of shame about myself like he would say things that made me feel shame about myself so then it's like then i just i don't know i felt down like i felt like a lesser like a meeker version of myself i started being quiet so even when he would say something that i felt was like out of pocket or i disagreed with i did eventually stop trying to have the conversation because it just didn't feel worth it was he like i mean like on social media like engaging with like you know oh like women yeah i don't think so so as far as i know so the behavior was enough for me i needed to get out i knew that i think at first i was like i can fix this i can fix this there was a time a certain point um where i was like what am i doing like this is crazy um and then there was like december he started accusing me of cheating in weird ways and i was like like the door i had left the door it was working from home it was a monday it was like 10 a.m and he was at the gym and he comes home and the door had been like left ajar to the apartment because i'd run down to get a package at some point and he was like like he thought i was cheating on him in the 45 minutes that he was at the gym and it was like such a red flag i know and i was like what is going on and there were like a few more moments like that otherwise though like when the text message when i saw the text messages which was as far as i know it was just this one person in the text that i saw she was reminding him that she's an escort i later found out that she was the stripper that they met at the strip club what do you mean reminding him just like it was helpful for me to read because she was like i'm an escort you got a baby like yeah so in the text messages was he like asking to hang out with her yeah they were like sexually explicit requests but then the texts stop and there's no evidence of that and then they're like oh my god i'm an escort i'm an escort i'm an escort i'm an escort i'm an escort of like connection or physical cheating but he was engaging with her like as if she was like a civilian yes potential that he could date yeah and she was like i'm a professional yes you'll i'm only being nice to you because i'm expecting you to pay me yes yeah that's crazy and rob was with him the night yeah i guess it was his 40th birthday trip i don't i generally don't think i do feel a little bad for rob here where i don't think that the men knew what was going on i do think that the the men were doing their thing and the other men were single like yeah you know and john's his own person and yeah i don't know how did you find out i found out because so john and i had like an open phone policy but i've never been through his phone i found out because i'm like on boys trips i'm like fine with the strip club like it's fine and we explicitly talked about it i was like yeah if you go and the guys go like that's totally okay just like behave don't be weird yeah don't be weird about it um that's that's the just stop everybody stop being a weirdo stop being weird stop being weird yes so the trip was in february and then like around april one of the girls like made a comment we were out and she was just like yeah like all the guys went to the strip club i'm like all of them because john had texted me on his own saying um oh some of the guys are going to the strip club and i was like oh why aren't you going and he was like i'm just not not in the mood for it or something um so like he lied for no reason because we had talked about it and i was like no you can go so then that like triggered something in my brain yeah and i was like oh he lied about the trip that's weird and then it was all very quickly it was very laid out for me it was very easy did you find anything else in his phone he's on tinder he's on tinder yes and all this is at like 3 a.m mind you but like i don't care like i don't care that like there was intention and even if you were wasted you had wasted intention and i don't it's gross this is all more alarming when you consider the fact that this was a man who was married to someone he met on television a show that is highly watched public relationship you can't hold it together he's not famous yet he is about to be well that's what makes me angry like angry is like you had one year to behave i mean obviously i'm grateful that it was in this year right um but it's like you had one year and you couldn't do that that's crazy and these girls like sometimes the guys would go out and they tell all everyone that they were on love is blind like so it's like people are taking pictures of you these girls are going to remember you like what are you doing gross yeah it's gross i'm sorry i have married friends and their husbands go on boys trips and they're golfing and they're going to breweries and they're not doing that yeah like when you confronted him about the text messages what was his and the tinder i guess what was his reaction yeah i don't think he took me seriously at first um he was like laughing didn't he say it was like a virus and that's how the tinder was like on this same trip yeah mm-hmm yeah and he said it was a bug that got his phone and he called the worst part is he called me one of those nights at three in the morning and i remember i was annoyed because i had both jobs the next day i'm like why are you calling me i could hear girls in the background at the house which again i trusted him fully so i peacefully went to bed after that but i just knew i wouldn't get the same in return like had i been on a girl trip and if he had ever heard boys in the back like it would have been this whole thing so yeah so that's even worse i'm like oh so you also called your wife like you were texting an escort and then like what was it on the phone yes it was it was it was while like he called me while like these texts were happening yeah which is like the worst part did you see his bio huh on tinder no i saw i saw it and like there was a match during that time good lord like he took the time to find photos right it's like there on maybe he's always had it and it's just like was like active deactivated or something and he just like activated i don't know i don't even know i've never been on tinder yeah i don't even know on his tinder on his tinder did you ask if he's ever utilized the dating app outside of this one trip yeah he says no he says no and like nothing physical happened and that he after the texting and stuff wanted to come home because that's when he realized he liked being married what you know once he realized he would have to pay for it he was like i should just go home now yeah like he just i guess after the trip he was just like i just want to like go home to my wife like this i'm glad that i'm married but he never told you about any of this obviously what did you make of his dad at the reunion you that hurt that hurt i like his family a lot like i think his parents are really great people his sisters are incredible he's got like a great brother so that was like and i understand why his dad felt the need to defend him because it was in there i mean michaela can speak to the energy it was crazy it was bad um and he was getting like i mean like rightfully they were coming down on him pretty hard but i don't think his dad what his dad said was helpful at all no people who stood up for i don't think that it was helpful things to say no like there were other things you could say the only guy i stood up from was the guy who thought um horoscopes are the devil's work or something yeah satanic oh my god yeah like we're just absolutely not like you definitely hate women if you think astrology is satanic right like you may even hate yourself let's look at your chart and talk about it i mean i felt like maury was obviously very upset about it but i'm i mean i felt like maury was obviously very vocal yeah during this exchange i'm curious how that felt for you to have maury stick up for you yeah it was it was nice um i don't know the tension was so bad in that room that like it definitely made it worse i was in like a free state to be honest so everything was like happening in slow motion like i just remember seeing maury like pointing and swearing at scott and then i remember seeing people like swearing at scott and then i remember seeing people like swearing at scott and then i remember seeing people like swearing at scott and sahar in like the rafters screaming down and i was just like everything was like in slow-mo for me it was so boston it was so boston yeah well then michaela i'm curious for you because maury was so vocal about this the cheating and john and all of it and yet wasn't vocal about his boy rob and holding him accountable how did that feel for you par for the course i think that's just what men do and what do you mean by that i think in particular like for whatever reason this group of men like protects one another and it's it i didn't expect him to say anything because rob is his best friend rob is maury's best friend yeah they're best friends what did you make of because at the reunion rob was like i self-isolated for like 50 days and then got some therapy and then and then and then nick was like i really commend you and i'm like for what i couldn't he stayed in his room for i'm like he he okay what he did the 75 hard and we're like amazing wow we got one therapy session and didn't talk to anyone for 30 days and i'm like they didn't talk about the female friendships at all and the way we showed up for one another in hard moments so weird he's getting celebrated for maybe i don't know six or seven therapy sessions and i'm breaking my back over here with a life coach and a therapist and my de-escalation skills and the way i show up for women and it was insane no it was wild because i'm a man no one talked about how dangerous rob came across in that room and again it only looked like from from just the viewer but another guy that the only reason he didn't hurt someone is because he was surrounded by cameras and 50 other people um that's just how it looked it was crazy it was it was you know but i have to say like the reunion wasn't my responsibility and the questioning is not my responsibility i can just show up and say the things that i wanted to say and i really feel like i was able to do that i think that was the part that was hard for me as a viewer too because for you know obviously you guys got married you guys got divorced that's the big relationship we're all going to focus on and obviously the tinder the escort those are very you know bad things to do and again well i don't think what he did is okay i think i just look at john and go that's that's a weak man he's making poor character choices um and he may never change and he may be unsafe to end up with anyone again i don't want to like label rob but there there are just dangerous men out there who are just like problematic and dangerous to be around and it felt like we were spending more attention on the weak man rather than the dangerous man as a viewer and like that felt kind of off for me yeah i felt it i felt that too i was like okay this is i think part of it too is that he that i got pulled aside by production they said everyone in this building knows exactly what happened in your relationship so they were not going to stop until john said the word stripper or escort and like i not knowing that going in was okay not saying like i was okay not saying it just because i've been being married does feel different like i know we signed up for this but being in a year-long marriage just it's hard because now we're like getting up on the stage and it's like here's all of like the bad shit that just happened in our marriage but i think if john had in the first 10 minutes been like this is exactly what i did this is how i treated her and then i texted an escort and i was like oh my god i'm not gonna do this anymore i'm not gonna do this anymore more time would have been spent on other people but because they hadn't gotten it from him they just kept on hit yeah was his reasoning correct of him being like i you know have this job and i didn't want to say stripper and escort on national television yeah yeah it's just embarrassing like it is embarrassing and he's christian like it just doesn't look it's just not a good look yeah and then blake's chime in did you fuck her yeah these guys it was just a good time it was just because we're like get to the point get to the point yeah yeah i'm curious just to kind of circle back on john because i know i just spent a whole like monologue of coming up to rob but you know when we talk about um bad partners and type of behavior there's the physical problematic behavior then there's emotional and what do you just for someone who lived with john what do you think the difference between john is and say someone who's emotionally abusive or do you feel like he was emotionally abusive transparently it's hard for me to say say those words because i was married to him and i loved him and i think he is very capable of change and good um i think what you said earlier he he sees it he's very disappointed in himself and he is like now he's in therapy he's working on it my therapist told me that it was emotional abuse and i i had my therapist said like if you don't separate yourself which i don't think i appreciated the impact of the negative impact of this behavior before but she said if you don't separate she's like people's brains get fucked up for life being in relationships like this like if you do not separate yourself now like you could be fucked up for life and that's why i think it's brave of you to come on this platform and kind of tell we have pretty much all women audience like what the signs were what were the things that we were able to do and what we're able to do and so many women are in it and don't know they're in it yes and don't know how to get out of it and so i do i like you being able to talk about it i think is helping a lot of women thank you yeah because like yeah just the the confusion of someone of john because like because you're like he was always so willing to acknowledge it you know and i think that's okay it's good to at first but yeah it can be such a mind fuck when you care about someone and we always tell ourselves you know i want to help the person i'm with i want to make them a better person all these kind of tropes that we and when they're saying it like you make me a better person like he said that so many times which now i'm almost like guys that's a red flag like if early on a guy's like you're making me a better person you're making me more patient i'm like just be careful i am curious you know the way that nick kind of keeps saying like rob was dangerous john was a weak man do you agree with that or do you feel like maybe john is just like a douchebag i think they're both dangerous i think they're both dangerous in different ways i and i think that this is what is interesting about dating shows is that it opens a like a larger conversation because there are so many women that are in relationships exactly like ours and it is holding a mirror up for both men and women for what is happening in modern dating yeah and i walked away because i was like absolutely not i cannot attach myself to this the person that you choose to marry or date influences your mindset and the way you think more than any other relationship you will ever have truly it's the person that's closest to you and when you're vulnerable with someone i think i said this on the reunion you're giving them a blueprint to hurt you and if that person takes it and uses it it's just unacceptable see when you say like when you say that i think of john absolutely instead of like rob it's like you it's like there's an intensity there and like hopefully you're not there at the wrong time but with rob it's like they'll show they'll they'll show you pretty quickly i need to leave and like the the johns of the world to your hearing you talk about it it's like yeah the mind fuck of is he a bad guy is he just does he need my help is he trying is he not you know like that the mental gymnastics you clearly had to go through even to talk to your therapist about like am i married to an emotional it's like gotta be fun yeah it's crazy twice with a therapist and we tried to do counseling once john and i together and that even that therapist was like john this is trauma for sarah so it's like the therapists were able to put all i did was say what my experience and then they labeled it for me which i think was really helpful to hear because it's like oh my god but thank you for saying that too because i cried watching michaela leave just like many other women because i was like oh i cried because i was disappointed in myself because i'm like i couldn't i should have done that like you know but you did and like that's like the big yeah but he's more covert than iran and it just takes it takes different amounts of time for different people like there's yeah no reason to beat yourself up or have shame as long as you do eventually choose yourself it's not easy when you're in love it's not easy especially like women in their mid-30s when like the dream is marriage and kids and a family and a partnership and when that's presented to you in this like fantastical romantic unbelievable way like you you hold on to that and i think it happens with people in everyday life not just not just here yeah because even me saying oh rob's here we attach to weakness in a way and that's that's like my downfall yeah yeah i think that's like the biggest thing i learned from this was that like i see the best in people always even when it's like not there i see their potential and i'm like like empathy is a double-edged sword like i cannot stop feeling bad i don't know if this is helpful for anyone who's like empathetic but i had to start picturing myself as like a person sitting here like a in third person because it's like that person is also worthy of your like love and respect like you have to think of yourself that way because i think before i make i was like staying for for everyone else for him for his mom for his sister for the dog like i was saying for every other reason and it's like no you have to think of yourself as a person who deserves your respect do you ever feel pressure to get through the marriage to this point so that john wouldn't be embarrassed at the reunion you know what i'm saying like yeah i did just finish the show and then i can leave them i did yeah and have you talked have either of you talked to john or rob since the reunion i have talked to john a good amount yeah i think that's why it was so hard too though because we did keep contact like i moved out right away yeah um but i was staying with a friend during that time though like i think there was some time that passed where we didn't talk at all but then like we have been in touch but it's still just like and i've told him if this that's just because of the show and because we knew we had the reunion coming if we if this has just been like regular life i probably never would have spoken to him again yeah what have the conversations been like post reunion i think he's just stressed understandably so i mean we've talked about this like these guys needed to learn a lesson and i think this is where i feel bad like to learn lessons like this on this scale is brutal for like a normal person even like the political aspect of our edit i'll talk about politics all day but like to have that be like to be normal people with that edit is brutal like it's just it's a lot so i think i just feel a little bad yeah so are you almost like playing therapist for him no not anymore but up until up until yeah maybe i was yeah trying to help how did he receive when you guys were doing couples therapy your therapist labeling him abusive he's been receptive that's a problem like he is receptive um i will say that we only did one session because the therapist basically was like sorry you have to decide right now like if you it was after everything and i was like i'm not coming back like the therapist was like you have to decide if you're going to come back or not and i was like i'm not coming back and i was like oh i'm not coming back let's we should stop this but um not coming back to therapy or just the marriage okay like i was like oh yeah why are you why am i here but um yeah um but now he's in therapy too which is great so he's working on i think i've said this before but like he's now working on how to not be that way and he sees it he knows it he doesn't want to be that way anymore but then like the problem is like i'm in therapy to like like myself again so it's like yeah did he ever a lot was made of his shower and fridge yeah uh i'm curious when you guys got into the real world and were married married what did kind of the roles look like i think mckayla you seem to almost allude a little bit at the reunion yeah it was like i saw she said i don't want to carry the mental load of the household and then as one of her friends when we you know obviously we talk about our relationships and everything she had she had to like you leave dishes in the sink for days when it was like she was like i don't want to carry the mental load of the household agreed upon he would do the dishes yeah yeah that one time he told me my mask was slipping because i had done dinner now he did he did he actually is a good cook and he does pick things up i think that there's a difference though between like picking things up and cleaning like between being like oh i actually have to like grab a mop or i should clean the toilet like that you know that never really happened so he's the worst version i think she kind of said like everything that i lined up it like i lined it up for him to like no but i'm joking i mean like on how to be successful in this relationship he was like i'll do that but he's filthy not messy you'd rather be messy not filthy like i i'm a tornado my clothes crazy whatever but like at some point you're like we need like this is disgusting we need to clean and you're just you become an adult and you get shit done and it sounds like that's the part he never did yeah yeah and so one time like i was making dinner i remember i was just like tired and he was like i'll do the rest i'll do the rest but the rest was like the pots and the pans which is the worst part and like three days later i was like i'm gonna do the rest i'm gonna do the rest i'm gonna do the rest and then three days later they were still in the sink and i was just like sad because i'm like oh he just actually offered like on his own very nicely and now they're still here and then i like brought it up again just like hey like can i just talk to you about something like just made me a little sad and then he was like the mask is slipping but again it's like self it's self-projection and i'm like learning that i'm sorry can we just please excuse me i'm just like sad i feel sad yeah yeah it's in the word sad he's like you're a monster well then that's like because then i'm like wait the problem with this is like when they say stuff like that you're like wait like am i overreacting am i too much is this ridiculous yeah that's such a mind fuck yeah it is and meanwhile you did i'm assuming you at moments felt literally trapped because you're like oh my god what did i do i'm married yeah to this person yes which is i don't want to like put that on like the show or anything like it's all this is all on me like but i think it's hard to leave it's hard to leave yeah what you always can divorce look like on love is blind how do you how did you know divorce is always messy but like how has he been easy to work with i haven't pushed too hard so i filed immediately in april um i got the lawyer before i even left papers still aren't signed but i haven't pushed because like with the reunion coming out it did it just felt very stressful once it finally like the paperwork got to him um but now i'm like ready to like settle it wash your hands so technically you're legally still married today yeah and if you had your way you would have been married yeah i would have been married yeah i would have been married you wouldn't be no he's just yeah treating it like the dishes right he's just putting off yeah you do it one place you do it every place like the dishes yeah michaela i we need to get into matt the beekeeper yeah yeah that was really weird that was really weird thank you for saying that that was really weird you know we don't know i don't know it also just pissed me off sorry for cutting you off that he like he it's like he let rob off the hook because yes it's just like what is going on why are we yeah you know i think i was very taken off guard i hadn't spoken to him in almost a year so for him to profess publicly essentially the opposite of what we discussed privately set me off and there's one thing i can't stand when a man doesn't treat you well but then says i'm always here for you if you need anything i can't like i i need nothing first and foremost specifically from you because you broke up with me the night before thanksgiving saying you weren't attracted to a relationship with me in no way is that being in love with somebody it's not so can we rewind when did you so you guys explored a relation okay so a few weeks after filming wrapped matt and i went on a date and probably dated for like two or three weeks and then i ended it i was like i am not ready for this like i am still emotionally wrapped up in rob it's not healthy for me to rebound so what did dating matt look like he'd like come over my house and i'd be like i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this a few times he went on a couple dinner dates it wasn't anything monumental okay and then in the fall like around like the end of september early october i reached out and i was like hey like i'm feeling really good like kind of ready to date again how are you and so then we dated for probably six weeks at the most but we're also long distance so he lives probably two hours from me so the amount of time we spent together was probably like i don't know five or six dates at the most so i was like i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not ready for this i'm not so when it ended i was just like okay all right like i tried i wanted to try something different like matt to me represented family because he's a father stability vulnerability like essentially the exact opposite of rob and when i left my relationship with rob i really didn't trust myself anymore because i was like i thought this man was it like this was my type i found the shortcut i'm getting married this is great and to be so wrong i was like i need to try something radically different and for me matt was radically different and i really walked away from that relationship thinking like wow I kind of wish we didn't explore it because we had a great friendship so then the way that he spoke to me at the reunion I was just like what are you doing and I think that was the consensus of the audience of everyone on stage like it was just it was hurtful honestly so he was like I met your family you met my family like we said I was in love with you he was not in love with me and then you were like I dropped I mean I guess people do leave relationships with different perspectives right sure so I I don't want to completely devalue him but like he broke up with me saying he wasn't attracted to a relationship with me so that's the craziest part is that like to find out he ended things with you yeah at the reunion and then also like saying that on stage like are you just trying to hurt me by telling everybody I broke up with Michaela because she lives too far away from me I was like what are you that's not love like that is not an act of love even as a friend that's not an act of love and he tells the truth but then he stretches it so he said I think he said I don't know if this airs he said I haven't said I love you to anyone since my divorce he lived with somebody he had a significant relationship post-divorce where he lived with that woman so you're telling me what you spent six weeks with me and you're in love with me but you lived with somebody but you're not because you're not attracted to a relationship with me you having to say we are on molly was here's the thing like I'm a hundred percent like and we talked about it like and it's just it's I was just annoyed I'm like come on dude and it was just like it was probably it was like also frustration with Rob because you also didn't treat me well either and I'm tired of men not treating me well when I'm kind I'm patient I'm available I'm curious like I'm open to anything that like God puts in front of me because I believe it's all there for a reason and I genuinely like I believe if you change one thing you change so there's nothing I would change but that was just incredibly hurtful it was yeah they they both said Rob and Matt both said if you need anything I'm here with Matt's you were like fuck off with Rob you were like thank you I appreciate that because it's still bullshit though okay because I've heard it so many times I'm just like I'm over it because I was over like I I hadn't talked to Rob in over a year like when we broke up it was done like it was like it was like it was like so would you say you're kind of like not pushing back at the reunion was more you're just like I'm over it yeah I was over it like you know it just was what it was your job to hold him accountable no it was some it was someone else's like I I did enough yeah like I have done enough and like it is so hard to constantly be told you're so strong you're so strong Michaela like you're you should be really proud of yourself and it's like well I'm also tired of that and was the night that he screamed at everybody he came back to y'all went back to your shared apartment and he backed his stuff and left was that the breakup yeah I mean I ended it on camera yeah yeah was there like a next did he because he was drunk right like was he yeah he called me the next morning was like what are you doing oh I'm like what am I doing I'm like I'm packing up my stuff he's like you're not at work and I go after that display you think I'm at work and he's like I can't do this right now and hangs up the phone I'm like all right you're not at work and I go after that display you think I'm at work and he's like I can't do this I'm like all right and then so like I'm I go home I'll go back to my apartment my best friend comes over with her dog obviously I'm crying in bed holding her dog like yeah just so disappointed because it just didn't have to be that way and I ended up texting him that night and I was like hey I'm really not ready to talk but why don't you give me a call tomorrow and he didn't oh but I'm finding out from all the women that he's calling all the men he's apologizing to Stu he called John he called Blake so I'm like okay he didn't die because I assume maybe he's in the hospital because he's not calling his fiancee I mean we were broken up but still like apologizing to them for just being too much at the party I imagine I don't know I wasn't in any of those conversations but the girls were telling me oh yeah Rob called Blake today oh yeah Rob called John today oh yeah Rob calls too I'm like looking at my phone like is it broken and so then he ended up calling me like almost two days later and you got a full apology or yeah yeah I mean he said I stand by everything I didn't said at the Lansdowne I stand by everything he said yes but he's like but it at you it had nothing to do with you we had a real relationship with a real engagement I really fell in love with you I'm just frustrated with the process and production and it wasn't the right environment for me but that's the part that's so confusing to me because again his specific behavior of how he reacted to him having a meltdown was the problem how he interacted with Diana how he like again he was patronizing to you he was aggressive with Matt you know he he he was chastising Sarah yeah I mean he was all these things or he stands by all that because he doesn't like the cameras the show that like that he signed up for did you ever get an apology from Diana no I just felt like the way that she handled the conversation with I mean her being like I am attracted to hot assholes felt you know obviously disrespectful yeah to you I don't know do you think Blake was there for the right reasons Blake oh oh god I would like to hope so personally I love him I was gonna say I don't know why he was on this show I also don't know like honestly like I don't know why he was on this show I don't know why did casting choose him right yeah but then you pick someone who doesn't live here yeah but from a casting standpoint you know listen like every you give people an opportunity you know they're looking for I don't think he was really ready for marriage no but I do believe he had genuine feelings for Erica yeah they they have like palpable chemistry yes when you're with them yes and they're just at the reunion yeah they're both just great people and we were all plotting it was like hot yeah it was it was I'm like I'm jealous I wish I could have like a copacetic relationship with an ex so we like Blake he's he's a good guy he's great and he probably actually does want to get married but I just think he's she's gonna she's gonna fit his life yeah yeah like there's not gonna be much the conversation that you and Erica had the internet kind of yeah you know how did you feel in that moment hearing that yeah I don't think it came across as she meant it so the morning after that party Erica was in my apartment with me helping me pack crying with me she's a very very good friend to me and what she meant in that conversation was I don't know I don't know I don't know I'm so sorry because you were so invested and you really thought this was it but it came across very differently like I knew what she was saying yeah and I was like oh that's not what you mean so I recovered I was like well everything happens for a reason she did not she did not mean it that way okay she's a very good friend to me what do we think of Jax keeping her she's so cool I'm like you're such a vibe girl like I haven't done anything with my ring and like she made it the coolest pinky ring I think we're all gonna make it the coolest pinky ring I think we're all gonna make them into new rings so you all can keep them yeah yeah I know I've seen some stuff being like they should give it back to the guys I'm like the guys didn't buy these rings why would I give it back they didn't buy them it's mine yeah they're not you know that's true I guess yeah I guess I thought because Stu was like I could have gone bigger that he like spit they did have the option to upgrade them yeah they could have yeah paid to upgrade but so he literally is outing himself for being like I didn't do that look at his proposal he's leaning back how do you feel about being Mrs. Stewart like it's just he's not upgrading that ring there uh Steven Jax maybe maybe they're the love story that I hope so I am would you want them to get together I am shipping I have spent some time with them the last few weeks we all went to New York together we I drove home in the car with them like I ship that relationship give it a try yeah because it's not what's stopping them I don't know I don't know they might be trying I don't know yeah but like because the thing about them is like of course Jax ghosted him and that was like a really poor sure judgment call but it's not like they had the situation like Rob and I had or Sarah and John had like I do think there is a world in which a second chance there could totally be worth it yeah yeah if we're comparing Jax's meltdown to Rob's I'll take Jax's every day which is like I didn't know how to handle that situation so I just removed myself yes right okay yeah fair you know not like literally whatever whatever that was yeah that was yeah I would be great if they I would love it I would love it hmm figure it out what's uh what's next for you ladies no idea yes I think I'm most excited to rewrite my type you know because I really went into the experiment being like Rob's my type and I saw it and like it's so funny like my friends and family really saw it too like oh this is like everything you wanted I'm like I just think I have to adjust my list a little bit um and I'm really excited to just take my time you know same I've kind of like rejected the biological clock thing because obviously I do want kids and I would love to be a mom and I would love to be a mom and I would love to be a mom someday but doing it with the wrong partner isn't worth it no nightmare can I ask you a question Sarah kind of going back to John because like you're you know you're still talking to him he hasn't signed the papers and like we've had this kind of long conversation about like is he just like not there yet or is he like manipulative and kind of and do you feel like him still making sure you guys talk and not sign the papers is like a way for you to to try to protect himself from you speaking your truth about him throughout this relationship in a way that's like yeah I think that's a possibility but it's hurtful too like for sure dealing with people like this it's hurtful because like oh do you actually even want to talk to me or is this all yeah it's like self-protection yeah yeah like are you trying to silence me so we are like we're in a good place but like he's not like someone I would say that's like in my life right now Scott's Did you feel like the whole, she goes out three times a week? wasn't that crazy i don't know so well actually so at the um post marriage and i don't again i don't know if this was like a a tactic um and it is hard for me to be like because there are some people out there who are diagnosably dangerous in this way and then there are just people who haven't figured it out and are reactive and need to work on themselves really bad and i don't know where he lies there you know i think i i think he's more just like reactive and maybe a little insecure and needs to figure out who he is um but after the marriage he was like you know you weren't perfect either but his two things were that i went out too much which when when he says i go out it would be like me and her sitting at like a bar at like contessa like in boston right like a nice restaurant and i would probably do it like twice a month but also like me and him didn't go on dates so it's like well i'm gonna go with my girlfriends and it would be like a wednesday night dinner twice a month and then i bartend on friday nights but we spent every single weekend together every saturday sunday um live together obviously so like that's i think that might have just been something he was trying to say like i mean everyone in the room laughed i actually was like let him shut him down she's like we're not doing that i was like let him speak i want to know what he's talking about and then the only other thing was that i would shut down in arguments but i'm shutting down because of the way that you're speaking to me right yeah and then he you know you love the man he carries a bible around he prayed over everyone what was your opinion on i guess that kind of like trying to yeah trump the bad behavior yeah i think that's the problem right like you you just have to actually like embody the values it's not enough prayer didn't work honey yeah look at us it's not it's just not enough yeah i'm just sitting here thinking like there's something about someone saying you're not perfect either that's different than like a couple fighting and someone's like coming at you and you're like well what about fucking you know or like you're not perfect either feels manipulative it feels like a certain kind of i know i do wrong shit and i'm just letting you know you're not i don't know maybe i'm just yeah well post-marriage though it was helpful to get distance because i was like i don't care like i don't care and i've never been more proud of myself in a relationship ever like i know how i carried myself in this relationship i raised my voice in the marriage once was may of 2025 like i remember it like um post-marriage i have raised my voice a few times just because now i'm over it yeah like i'm over it do you remember what that one time was about like why it was it was like a political thing it was yeah did he masks mask his you know because we talked about in the pods how he was like you've changed my mind and things like that did he did he mask his real beliefs i think on some stuff okay i think um the issues that you see us discuss no i think i did like actually like change his mind i also think he wasn't as far in that direction as the internet has made him seem to begin with okay i think he does probably live in like or he was living in a little bit of i don't even want to call it the manosphere because like people will run with that too but like a male-driven echo chamber if you will um so i think what started happening is it's like okay this is happening a lot where i'm like like he we would laugh because i would start being like john like it just he'd say seven like come on i'm tired yeah like come on yeah was he still in the bodybuilding yeah like that's something we connected on was like fitness he's not bodybuilding but he does work out a bunch but he had trophies what do you get the trophies for bodybuilding that's intense did he move those trophies into your apartment no i he i gave him a room like he had a room it was like his office and he could do whatever he wanted in there yeah they were in there they were in there of course they had to be it's wild what a ride this this show i mean we it's wild because i think when this season started we were like wow these men like such a breath of fresh air from ohio i felt like they were better you know there's a lot of talk about it and i think it is a true reflection of the dating scene yeah some people are like i'm sure you guys have seen it love is blind he's picking like all these radical like men and it's like this is a reflect i actually think it's a reflection of the dating pool in boston and more it is broadly it's just realistic yeah what did you guys think of cam and neha's interesting and i said i don't yeah that was still my fiance though i didn't i didn't i didn't appreciate it because like his family's there yeah don't celebrate saying no and all these people showed up it's like you brought them all here just for you to rub it in his face yeah i didn't think it was kind i wish she handled that with a little more grace and do you think i think he was upset yeah he was upset do you think that was her just not being aware of the moment kind of yeah kind of i don't think it was intentional i don't i think he was gonna say no i think she knew that so like okay yes and maybe that's like insider knowledge but like they asked her first you know yeah that's true and so like he didn't even really get to say his piece but i think that they talked about it before so i think she thought they were like we're good okay yeah but then he ended up having an emotional reaction yes i didn't yeah well because it's it's it is embarrassing yes and the whole thing's emotional and i honestly think i love them both but they just should just weren't about yeah i like them too was her talking about the like hotel room and him coming was that as long as the reunion made it seem like it was her kind of explaining all of that or was that a little fun in the editing room no it was it was long but the worst part was i left my body they got you like yawning it was it was right after the john like explosion like after everyone was after i fell after she fell i was no longer in the room you're jennifer lark fall yeah my soul had left my body all of us were just everyone in the room like my sisters and my mom were traumatized for days after the reunion it was so bad so for them they should have done them first like for them to do all of us were just going on did they get me yawning that's amazing they got you yawning your fall is pretty epic yeah your fall was i feel responsible you're not responsible but like i just honestly i got up god pushed me down because the room needed the comedic break no for a moment like the like it is a wild 10 minutes of it was 10 minutes i left i'm telling you i fell and i went listen from a i've never seen anything like that at a reunion and so i can only imagine the fall or like the 10 minutes just the whole thing because i can only imagine how what it was like in real life but for them to give us so much authenticity yeah i'm 100 myself at the very least the mushrooms ball my christmas monologue this is who i am oh wow it was so good it was not crazy benita engage i'm so happy for her have you all met yes yes he's great he's great they make so much sense together yes i kind of loved how she was like but i was like are we gonna bring him out and she's like no i will be follow my instagram i loved it one of the best things we were at once and she was like i want to take a picture of you and she just went babe and snapped her finger and he showed up with his um like flashlight on there's such a good match they're like there's such a good match that is a man showing up for his girl babe babe and like the light just came on yeah that's great that's good that's really good who else was i mean wilney and wilson how are we how did how did you feel about them as a whole i think same thing like just like a miss a mismatch yeah yeah on like that stuff that's pretty important yeah okay because i love them both like i'm close with wilney and then wilson's i think he's great like he's a great guy i think it's just that's an that's that relationship's a little hard to watch and it's hard to watch the discourse online because like they're just both great people yeah and it's just a relationship mismatch and people are going to have their yeah they're taking care of each other and they're going to have their yeah i have heard from a variety of people even you ladies it seems like overall it's a fairly close group of people and you've made some great friends but obviously with you and john and even you and rob maybe a lesser degree i guess really specifically for you like once you get the paper signed and you're like all right we are done and i need you out of my life how are you planning on enforcing that boundary so to speak because obviously this group of friends are close and that might kind of be i'm i would imagine that you're going to have to do a lot of work and i would imagine confusing and if if if i can predict john's behavior i can pick predict he'll use that familiarity with the group as a way to still have access to you yeah i don't know i think that the girls are close and the guys are close that's two separate groups we don't always do like the full the full groups meetups yeah and i think i'm personally fine at this point like i feel fine seeing john in public like i don't have any issues with it um who knows yeah i don't think you should give him that access to you personally yeah i think your boundaries need to be a little stronger than your empathy and i say that with love no i know everyone told me that it's okay i don't even take offense to it because i'm like i know you're right yeah so are you still kind of wrestling with uh how much should i not have him in my life situation a little bit but like i feel as more and more time passes i'm like i feel so much lighter like it's just i didn't realize how much it was like pulling me down that's one thing i do want to say about him too he does just like with the He does like appreciate modern medicine. And I think sometimes it takes you needing it to like finally appreciate it. But so he's, it's super well managed. And there's some times where he feels like a little like off balance, like that would bother him, but it was never like a, never used in a weaponized way. Yeah. The modern medicine conversations, I think it, I think it's relatable for. A lot of people. I don't know. Even that conversation, I'm so grateful people liked what I said, because what I said was long and it was several sentences chopped into like one quick sentence. But like, I was talking about that, how like you can go buy jeans and you can learn whatever you need to learn about the jeans, how it's shipped, what it's made of very quickly on your own. need help medicine is just like not like that and then even in my like education background it was i got my master's in public health like nobody knows that the how messed up the health care system is in the united states more than the people in it right but that's why i like to have the conversations because like no i know i know you have distrust there's a reason people have distrust let's talk about it let's talk about why you can and should trust it and also let's look at the issues with it too do you feel like moving forward you are open to having a relationship with someone who might have different views than you or is that a it's a no i think it's i think well there's room for like i think that's the one thing the big big bucket categories i think we have to align but there is some stuff like we don't all need to be like picture perfect left picture perfect right like there's stuff you know what i mean but there's so there's conversations to be had but in big categories we got to be aligned a couple of twin questions because we have twins what are some things that your parents did that you like loved to make you feel i don't whatever the feeling was that you loved growing up like what are some things that we can do for our girls to make them because i just i hear a lot about like you know referring to them as the twins nobody has their own identity like was there certain moments or things that your parents did on special occasions or just on a day-to-day basis that you know you have an older um daughter so i would actually say like this isn't answering your question but like just like pay uh particular attention to the older daughter she's i think twins covered no i'm like twins get like a lot of attention oh yes so it's like we go everywhere it's like the twins the twins the twins and even with like my friends sometimes it's like it's just like there's other people here you know yeah and i will say me and my sister have different birthdays we were born five minutes before and after midnight oh that's almost happened with us yes that's cool so we celebrated different birthdays and i feel like that's actually like a nice thing to do like different cakes yeah i was rooting for that yes yeah it's so cool it would have been different months too oh really oh cool it's june 30th at like 11 55 that's cool yeah it was 11 55 oh my god yeah so i would just say like two like celebrating them separately okay yeah okay it's a little different for me because i have a twin brother yeah so we kind of didn't play the comparison game ever because like what is there to compare other than our grades um but i i mean they just constantly encouraged a close relationship so like my brother and i have maybe five or six kids and i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god once or twice in our lives and it was like when we were teenagers um but even when we did like we bicker like an old married couple like my parents like please stop fighting like we're not so i don't know it's very different i don't know if i could give you advice on how to raise them but just like just knowing that they're two different separate people because my brother and i are incredibly different it's we all are very close today super close what was his take on the rob stuff was he an idiot like he filmed he filmed and he wore these like insane sunglasses you kind of couldn't see them and i'm like lewis what are you doing like you are gonna regret this and he goes you think you're getting married in two weeks we've got bigger fish to fry and i'm like 100 right 100 right but no my family won't watch it because they're they're hurt by it yeah you know they trusted him yeah yeah but you handled yourself so well thank you thank you my mom's like i don't need to watch it to know i'm proud of you watch it well ladies i do appreciate you taking the time and uh opening up about this stuff thank you and thank you for seeing us and acknowledging what we went through it's it's super helpful thank you it's a shame that none of the other men saw it it's or apologized you're stuck up for you or anything you don't need to apologize for anyone else's behavior but acknowledgement would be nice yeah yeah maury finding out he's best friends with rob while trying to play the role of a hero you at the reunion was interesting welcome to boston uh nevertheless uh sarah and michaela i appreciate you guys thank you so much thanks for coming and uh it was i mean a very entertaining season for sure um and it was a joy to get to know you women and um you know thanks for the entertaining television sorry you had to go through a whole marriage to do it it's okay i've learned a lot of lessons yeah won't happen again the lessons not the not the marriage yeah all right bye-bye thanks thank you