E1213 - My Baby Daddy, Another Baby Mama | Ask Nick

My husband gives me the ick okay every little thing he does drives me insane And I don't know how to go about this how bad how bad is it How's it going good how are you good what's your name my name is Ashley. I'm 40 and the father of my child had a baby with someone else. Is he your husband? No, we are very recently not together. Okay, were you married? No, we never got married. But you broke up? Yeah, we're in the process of dividing splitting and moving out. So we're still living together at the moment. Did you find out he got someone like did he cheat on you? So no, so we started dating a few a couple of years ago pretty soon into dating. I found out his ex was pregnant. All the babies are here and then I shortly after dating. So he he had a baby on the way with someone else. He had a baby on the way when you met him. Yes. Then you had a baby with him. Yes, then I found out and shortly after I got pregnant. And then that relationship had its ups and downs. You broke up and then you recently found out he's also having a baby with someone else. No, so it's just the two. Oh, okay. Yes. Oh, okay. I mean, obviously the headlines juicy. But what's the problem you're trying to figure out what can I help you with? So the problem is now navigating co-parenting. Not only co-parenting, but both of the babies in split homes, us in split homes, trying to find a sense of community and support in a very unique situation that I don't feel like anyone in the world can relate to. You might be surprised, but I understand why you might feel a little lonely. What's your relationship with the other lady, the other mom? No, it's we I cannot. No, it's been very you've tried. Yeah, it's it's very complicated. There was a very large custody battle with the two of them that I got dragged into. We live in a really small town and she was publicly shaming me. So I kind of became collateral damage in in their mess. So unfortunately, a relationship does won't exist. Yeah. There's not going going back coming back from that. What did she say? What'd she do? I mean, she posted online some really personal things that I went through posted about him pretty much smearing both of us. And when I was pregnant told me, you know, I should kill myself, abort my baby. Pretty horrific things that I don't know how to recover from. Yeah. No, that totally makes sense. The only reason I like I only reason I ask and bring it up is like your state of goal was like, how do I create a community, a family of some semblance with this kind of crazy situation that I have? Yeah. And this woman is just a part of your life right now. Yeah. Which is obviously not ideal, but it is the situation you're in. And not even to the degree that you don't forgive her, whatever, but just getting her the thing you have going for you on the outside chant, she feels any regret or shame for reacting the way she did. And as the year like, let's say two years pass, right? You're both your kids will still be very young. You still have, you know, 15, 16 years left, possibly having to interact with this woman from time to time. It would be great if she felt regret because you were just by some miracle like you didn't, like you didn't weaponize her mistake against her knowing you have every right to feel however you feel about it. I'm not telling you to get over it to be clear. But if somehow you get this woman on your side, that would just make your life easier over the next 15 years. And I just wonder at a right time, maybe that dime is not now. Maybe it's any year from now. Maybe it's two years that if, I don't know, letter, you know, reached out where you're just like, hey, I know we've had our differences. I know you're not even getting into the blame game, but like we're on the same side. And we have two daughters with this man. And I'm sure you're like me where you just want your kid to have a great life. And our daughters are, does he have a dust? Our kids are relate, their brother and sister. So is there a world we have a cup of coffee and bury the hatchet? I don't, you know, I don't know. I just wonder. And again, you don't have to get over it. You know, you can still hate her deep inside. But I just wonder if, again, your your your your kids are siblings. Is she is she batshit crazy or is she just someone who has a version of you? She is batshit crazy. Yeah, it's um, I would love to have, you know, I grew up in a split home. My parents to this day don't speak. So this is quite honestly a nightmare for me to be now a single mother. I would love for all of us to get along. But that reality, she's I don't say it lightly, but she's crazy. In a perfect world, we could, you know, I give our graph coffee and we can talk it out, but I don't think that's uh, that's ever going to happen, unfortunately. Okay. Well, I'm sorry. Maybe down the road. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think my sense of community come or wanting is, you know, I don't have a ton of support where I live. I don't have family that lives nearby and navigating that trying to find that. Is he at all involved? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He is involved. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, what can I help you with? I know it's times. It just feels like a very unique situation. I feel very alone in and I don't know. Now I'm 40. I would actually really love to have another baby. And I'm single. The windows closing for that, for that to happen. And on top of, you know, a lack of support. I think right now, I would focus on the present than the future, especially in the immediate future. You know, just because times are tough, obviously right now. And you're, you know, but now and I recognize that we're in a very privileged position because, you know, for all the stresses we deal with in life, we have the opportunity to connect with our kids because overall we're in a good spot. And I recognize that when life is more challenging that takes away opportunities for parents, you know, to do that with your kids. And I guess I'm just saying to whatever degree you can help it, try not to let all the shit that you obviously have to deal with, stop you from just like connecting with your child in this like really precious time. And you guys will get through to things together and just try to keep that overall thought because I think that will help in the long run. And obviously, I'm not saying like don't, don't give over your future, but like right now just am I wrong by saying that like even if you like, you're not looking to date in this immediate moment. No, no. Okay. So since you're not looking to date in this immediate moment, let's not worry about what dating looks like for you when you start dating. Right now, you're just focused on your situation. So try not to stress yourself out because you have a lot of your play already. Let's not. Yeah. Let's not let's not add to it by worrying about when I do start dating what that's going to look like. Anytime when things feel like heavy in your loan, it always feels worse than it is. And not to downplay what you're going through, but it's really helpful to just find the wins. And just your your your your your your is it? Your daughter or son? Yeah. Your daughter is like, it's always a win. You know, no matter what you're going through, I'm sure when, you know, outside of the crying and all the difficulties that is being a mom, you know, just have those moments because when you do get through it, you will look back and be glad that you still like connect with your daughter when you're on the other side of the situation. And when you found your footing and you got through it, you will cherish these moments even more. And that's probably the best I could give you. What's your situation with? Is it a relatively amicable breakup? It's definitely, it has this moments where it's, you know, we're fine and then, you know, we will get into a fight. So I think it has potential to be hopefully a good parent co-parenting. Who's ending the relationship? I am. Okay. Yeah. There's no way in that. You're taking charge. You're making a difficult decision. You don't want to do. Yeah. But at least you're doing it. Maybe this advice is annoying, but I just really think in these moments, it's important to focus on those little things, you know. You are a victim of this situation, but leaning into that mindset does not going to help you get through this. Is there practical things or decisions you have in front of you that you might need to help figuring out? Really, it's just the financial strain. Is he helping that? Where when he, where and when he can, yes, you know, we just live everything is so expensive now. And I think that's like that everywhere, but it's just, do you have options in terms of relocating? Is that something you've considered? Like an equal, you know, okay, so that's not something you're considering. Yeah, no, I, I would love to move eventually, but I also don't I want to take him, you know. - You said you're in a small town? - Yeah. - Are there any church groups or support? I mean, are there group, like, can you get out in the community at all? Like, there are other single mothers out there. You know, I don't know what that looks like, but I wonder if you can find some community in your area. Which I always think is a better option than finding community online. - Yeah. - Depending on the group, some of those online groups can be helpful and supportive. Some of them can be real bad at toxic. - Yeah, I've found myself more in the toxic side of things. - Yeah. - So the internet is scary. - Scary. You may strike out, but I would look for just community in your-- - Yeah. - Natalie and I aren't very religious, and when I say not very, like, she's not at all, and I grew up religious, but like, we've had conversations of like, should we just like go back to church? Because like, we want to like meet some other parent. Like, it's mostly for community, you know? And like, I have a comfortable religion. I have a comfortable relationship with religion. And Natalie just doesn't have any. And so I'm not like, you know, I have a firm grasp on where I, you know, I'm just like, I'm not intimidated by it, by it. So like, we, we haven't yet, but like, we've had those conversations. But for just no other reason, just to like, you know, that's for a lot of people what religion was. And maybe it's not a religion. Maybe it's, maybe there's a single mother group out there. Maybe there's like a white, you know, I would look for that, or of a hobby you have. Hopefully this is a support group where you can bring your daughter along and allows you, you know, some community that way. But I would start there because yeah, you need some people, you know? You need some, you know, you have girlfriends in the area at all? - I do. Making friends with mom friends is hard because nap times and routines don't match. And then trying to find friends that don't have kids but want to be around, you know, the tough phase of her screaming, you know, times can be also challenging. - I have found, this is not a, but when it comes to those relationships where like, you have the kid and you have the friend who doesn't have the kid, there definitely might be people like, I'm not a kid person, I don't know if I'm a kid. I hear you on that. But at least with some of Nally's friends, there's always the assumption from the non-parents that the parents have too much going on. They can't be bothered to do whatever the fuck. And that makes sense. So to any of your single friends, 'cause Nally's had these conversations where it's just like, listen, if you want, I'd love for you to come over and have a cup of coffee with me. I know I have my kid and I can't do that, but I would love to see you and like, I still want to like try to make time and give them the invitation that you want to see them. And if they want to opt out because as a kid, fine. But I think sometimes a lot of the single friends just assume mom's, mom and dad are too busy. - Yeah. - And so no one reaches out. Does that make sense? So for your non-mom friends, if that's what you want, I would just give them the invitation to come over to see them more. I'm not like, I don't need a babysitter, but I just love the company. We might not be able to clubs with you, but maybe you can meet at a park and grab a coffee. My kid can play and we can gossip, whatever. - Yeah, I think that's true. It's like, if I'm not reaching out, 'cause I'm assuming they don't want to come, right? And then they're not reaching out because they're assuming that I'm busy. - You're busy, yeah. - And I think the moms need to reach out and say, I'm still here and I'd still love to hang out. Because I think some people don't want to be like, reach out and be like, oh, well, you got the kid, you can't, you know, it's like, I think the single friends might feel bad or something. So like, at least that's how it worked for now. It was all very positive. And I think the friends appreciated Natalie saying that. - Yeah, 'cause the community really shows up when their, you know, baby's newborn and brand new and everyone wants to like, hold her and everything. And then it kind of fades away. - Given the invitation, see what happens and no expectations. And, but I think it'll help things a little bit with some. - Yeah. - Just get through each day, you know. And try to just focus on your daughter. And then financially, are you like? - I'm stressed. - Okay. - Yeah, very, very stressed. - Not really, not really. No, I work full time at least. So I help full time job, but. - Does he work full time? - Yeah, yeah, he does. I just, I'm, I was a breadwinner, yeah. - Maybe he needs more ambition. - Yeah, I mean, I've never seen a work so hard until he wanted to get away from me, yeah. - Well, listen, I'm sorry. I wish I could be more helpful. I don't know if I'm, I was that helpful in this call, but you'll get through this. It's not going to be without its challenges and certainly some moments where you're thinking, what do you know, you curse me for telling, you know. - Again, you're, it's a tough situation, but try to find the wins is, I guess, my big thing and find community. And, and I think it's very easy right now when you're feeling alone to wait for people to make you feel less alone, but I think you're, you're going to have to make some moves and you're going to have to put out the bat signal, so to speak. And not everyone's going to show up, but I think you will find some people who do. And in the meantime, just prioritize your daughter and make the most out of a bad situation and you will definitely look back and be proud of yourself. I know that much. And when you're ready to get back out there and date, you know, you'll, you'll do that and you'll let the chips, that'll work itself out. And if you can get, do anything to get ahead of things or alleviate father time, look into that if you can, if that's an option. You know, but you, listen, you, you already had a child later in life than a lot of women think they can. So who knows? You know what I'm saying? - Yeah. - And for all of this difficulties, I imagine you're very happy with the fact that you're a mom. - Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah. - So, there you go. You know, it's a Lord, you know, the Lord will work in this serious way as I guess. I don't know, I know it's annoying. Life's hard and this is gonna be a challenging period but you can get through it and just try to, try to stay positive and then do what you can to make your situation better and it looks like you have a few options and you'll figure out the rest. - Yeah, and then, yeah, definitely resilient. That's for sure. - A lot of people aren't. - Yeah. - Listen, you, you seem like a, you got a great demeanor about you. I think you got to get through this. Don't let this situation change that. I think you're gonna be better for it. Just try to make good decisions, you know. Like you're gonna have a million decisions in front of you and I would just think about the long term, over the short term and every decision you make is this decision putting me and my daughter into a better position in the future and honestly, I would focus on that in the short time. And I think you'll be surprised five years from now and you look back if that's, if that's every decision you made from here on out, you focused on that and you focus on the long term, you're gonna be better for it. - Yeah, yeah, I agree. - All right. Keep us posted, check in with us. I'd love an update and see how you're doing. - I, yes, I will keep you posted. - Well, congratulations on being a mom. I'm sorry, you're going through this. You're gonna be okay. - Yeah, thank you very much. - All right, all right, take care. - You too. - Bye-bye. - How's it going? - Good, how are you, Nick? - Good, what's your name? - So I'm Melissa, I'm 37, and I live in Dunder. - How can I help? - So last year I went on a date with a long time friend and it was a really good date, but in the end, I just really felt like his backup plan. And I've been struggling for the past year to move on for my deep feelings for him and I could just really use your advice. - What do you need my advice on? - So me and this guy met in 2019 when I first moved to Denver. We were originally professional contacts, but over time, just became more friends. He was married at that point. I did have a crush on him, but I always maintained a respectful boundary. On last spring, he told me that he was leaving his wife and I tried to be a really supportive friend. I helped him settle into his new apartment. I helped him build a bed frame. I just tried to show up for him. A couple months later, I did confess to him that I had feelings for him and if down the road at some point, he would want to explore that I would be interested, but if he just saw me as a friend, that was fine. He wasn't really ready to date at that point. He had said he was going to be getting back out there, but he was also trying to figure out his life while it shifted. A few months later, he said he would be down to go on a date with me, but he wanted me to know that I was, or that he was going on dates with other women kind of in this casual date and space. So we go on this date. It's a great date. We're together for three hours. We make out at the end. It was a really good date. He had let me know on the date that he was seen other people, in particular, one woman. He had been consistently seen. So after that date, I decided we should just be friends because I could not date him casually, just given our history and my feelings for him. So we saw each other a few times throughout the fall. We went out to dinner in October. I celebrated one year of not drinking, and he was a big part of helping me. It wasn't a date, but it felt like a date. And at the end of the dinner, he says, hey, I have to go home and pack for a trip, but if you want to keep hanging out, you can come over all through on a movie. So I agree. And then he says, and if you want to make out, I'm Torell. down but it's up to you. I was little thrown by that because he knew I didn't want to be friends with benefits but I go to his place we kind of have a conversation about our dating lives and he says he's still seeing this other woman and so I tell him I just only get a good idea to make out like I don't want to be a second fiddle I'm not anyone's runner up if you guys end up together I'll just feel really stupid. So we met up for drinks in November again just his friends he asked about my dating life I didn't know much going on. I asked about his and he said he was still seeing this woman sometimes he could see a future with her but he wondered if that was crazy and I said I don't think that's crazy sometimes you meet people and you hit it off and then he said and sometimes I wonder what I'm protecting you and me from and I took that to mean he's wondering like why he won't open the door a little bit more to see if there's something here. I doubled down and said I think we should still be friends I'd rather have none of you than half of you. So we just stayed friends. When you say that to him what does that mean to you? What does that look like? Practically speaking. What does that friendship? What does that friendship look like? It's a really good question because I own that it probably was not authentic but at the time with the information I had I felt like being friends and having him in my life in some capacity was better than not having him at all. With what information? What do you mean by that? Because he was clearly going on dates and seeing this other woman consistently and so I just felt like I'm not going to try to compete against other women or convince someone to date me. I shouldn't have to do that and so I would rather be friends with him since the dating places that we're in or not lining up. But what is that friendship? Considering you have feelings for him and he's confused about his feelings for you. And you don't want to be the second fiddle and you don't want. You're saying all the things but your actions are doing the opposite. Different than what I'm saying. Yeah, they're not matching. Again, this is a boundary conversation and you're doing the thing that so many of us do which is like you set the boundary, you communicate the boundary and then you expect that other person to enforce the boundary. And it's your job to enforce the boundary. I mean, it sounds like he's been fairly honest and that honesty is mostly sent around his confusion about where he is in his love life which I'm assuming you would at least give him that benefit of the doubt which is like this is a man who you met while he was married and then whatever happened in his marriage, he got a divorce for anyone regardless of whether he was the one who left his wife or vice versa. That's a confusing time for anyone. 100% and that's why I was like I I understood why he was in a casual dating space. I wouldn't want to jump into something with him. Sure, but like and you're just like, well, let's be friends. And you're like, what does that look like? And that looks like you sitting around and waiting for him to realize that you're enough. You go out to dinner, which to you kind of feels like a date because that's what a man and a woman who like, you know, that's what people who when there's some romantic interest do and because you're romantically interested in him, it feels like a dating. You're wondering what is this a date and he's, you know, it's like you're, but it's like it's dinner because people also just eat dinner sometimes, you know, and and that's where the confusion comes in. But you're like, well, let's just let's be friends and let's have, let's, I guess what I'm trying to say is like you're, you're saying, well, what is, what is that friendship that nothing? You're like, let's just be friends, but nothing changes. You say, let's be friends, but they are also like, well, you let me know if anything, am I, I know I'm being, I think I'm being confusing. No, I understand what you're saying. Like, there's no winning here because I keep saying I want to be friends and yet I don't actually want to be. Yeah, you don't want to be his friend, exactly. No, yeah. So after we got drinks in November and he says, sometimes I wonder what I'm protecting you and me from the next week, I go to a Christmas party that he is at. It's all professional contacts. We say hi, exchange nice cities and then just kind of float around the party. Eventually, he pulls me out onto the back deck and says, Hey, I really respect he was a friend and I want to let you know that the woman I've been seeing is coming in a few minutes. I wasn't sure if she could come, but she is coming and so I just want to let you know. So I played it cool and I was like, that's great. I have to leave so I probably won't meet her, but glad she can come. So I left and I sobbed was just really heartbroken. He texted me a few days later on Christmas Eve wishing me happy holidays and saying, I'm sorry, I made an awkward at the party. I just wanted it to be honest. So I text him a few days later and said, like, hope you had a good holiday. To be honest, being friends has been harder than I let on and I think I need to take a step back, but I care about you and I hope you have a good new year. So he like respected that and he apologized and said, like, if you want to talk, I am here to talk and I didn't take him up on that. So he invited me to his birthday party on a mass email in February. I didn't go. I saw some photos of him on social media. I blocked him because I just wanted to move on, but on a mutual friends page, I saw he had been on a couples trip with this woman. So that kind of sucks, but I still was just trying to move on. And then in April, he texted me out of the blue and said, hey, I've been trying to give you space, but I miss you as a friend and I hope you're doing well and I'm sending you good vibes. So we had a tiny back and forth and he was like, I hope there's a world where we can hang out again one day. And I said, I think there probably will be and left it at that. I mean, directness is not unkind. No, you're right. And I'm really bad at being direct, which creates a lot of confusion. So I realized I contributed to my own agony here. Yeah, because like, listen, like, I, you know, I don't know what people listening are going to think, but it's not the way you what you're describing. Certainly imperfect, but it doesn't sound like he's really done anything wrong. I could certainly say, maybe you've been less considerate of your friend's feelings, but he's been pretty honest about his confusion. And he's been pretty open that he's down to be your friend. You're not down to be his friend, right? But you've kind of implied that you are. And that can be very confusing to him. It's like, well, I mean, she says she wants to be my friend. I'm trying to be her friend. I guess I thought that being silent and no communication would communicate to him that, hey, I need space. I can't continue to do this like blurry lines friendship thing that we've been doing. Sure. So I'm going to step back and put that boundary. But that doesn't that you make it sound like it's a temporary thing. Hey, I can't do this right now. I need to like accept our friendship. And then, you know, you don't you block them. You don't make any contact. And yeah, I guess you're hoping he gets the point. But again, back to he's always wanted to be your friend. Yes, he he was wrong by reaching back up not wrong. Like I don't think you do anything wrong, per se. But he was like, okay, maybe enough time had passed. I'm going to reach out. And because I value this woman, I do like her friendship. I don't I guess whatever reason I don't want to be in a romantic relationship with her. And he shot his shot, so to speak, as seeing if there was still something there as friends. I mean, that's reasonable. And you were like, not right now, but maybe in the future, which is completely untrue from your standpoint. Like that's not there's no truth in the in what you said to him. But he's like, okay, well, maybe someday I guess I can just wait three more months. And I'll, you know, maybe maybe I will get what I want, which is to have her as a friend. And you you lied. You kind of lied to him. Yes. Okay. I think that I hoped in the moment that if enough time passed, maybe I would be in a different headspace. And there could be a world in which we were friends. I wasn't trying to lie. I just thought if I give this enough time, I might be able to move through my feelings and maybe get to the other side and be friends with him. But but that that is I would say, you're you're not being fair or honest with yourself. Yeah. Because everything about this relationship with this person is centered around your romantic feelings. Probably when he was married, you were probably like, yeah, I wish he wasn't married. And I really find him charming and really enjoying his company and yada yada yada. And if you ever get over him romantically, I doubt you're going to have the same desire to be his friend. Why do you think that is? Because everything about this relationship, you see from a romantic standpoint, because you probably don't need some random dude in your life to talk about your relationship issues. I'm guessing you have plenty of girlfriends and other friends in your life to play that role. You don't need him to play that role. You might be one of the few people in his life who's willing to listen to him in his dating and yada, you know, in ways that his maybe boys aren't interested. So you, you know, it makes sense why he would be open to being having you as a friend. And but you don't need him as a friend. And so when you cease to see him as a romantic interest, what are you? What's he doing for you? What are you getting out of this relationship? Nothing. Nothing, which is, I mean, he does mean a lot to me. Romantically. Yeah. Yeah. In a way that you, you know, and every time he did that, you were like, you, you, you took that internally as a, I'm right about us and our potential. Because yeah, You're like, if he did this, if we, if he saw what I saw. on us. And we agreed to be romantic partners. And he kept doing these things that make me feel validated and good. We'll have a great relationship because so much about a romantic relationship is, you know, being friends is being best friends and, you know, like, is having both, right? And you're confusing the friendship part of this relationship as the potential for your romantic part. He doesn't feel that way. And every time he shows up as a friend, you're confusing that as a green flag of how great you guys can be in a relationship, which all might be true if he wanted to do that, but he doesn't. And he actually has been fairly consistent with what he wants from this relationship. And you've been consistent. You just haven't been honest with yourself or him about what, you know, about what you're comfortable with. Which is true. I, okay, I do want to ask you one question in that I was the one who said after that date that we won that we should just be friends. So I put that boundary up. Yes. I kind of said, okay, we're just going to end from here on out. I would argue that it was an unrealistic boundary from your standpoint. Because again, you didn't really want to be friends. You were just settling for what he was willing to give you. And then you told yourself, like you said, well, I'd rather have some of you than none of you at all. Which I would argue is untrue. You, you want it all. Which is good. You should, you deserve to want it all. And you know that, right? You're like, I don't want to be someone's second option and things like you, you know the right answer. But you just don't, you're not willing to walk away from something, you know, used to have hope for. Yes. I mean, if he did not have any romantic interests in me, why would he have gone on a date with me? And why would he have said, sometimes I wonder what I'm protecting you and me from? Well, I don't know that, but he has acknowledged his confusion. Yeah. And that is frustrating. But we, we all notice like to be confused. And he has been honest about that. And so when he tries things out, you are taking it as, you know, I don't know. I guess I'm not sure how you're taking it. But all it is to me when I hear it is, I don't know, he's like, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm being, I'm confused. And again, like he does value you, he obviously like you, again, you're probably our great friend. You are giving, you're doing things for him that he values. You, you hear him out. You empathize with him. You allow him to open up to you about things that quite don't feel like you don't even want to hear about because he's, he wants to talk about his dating life. And yeah, he gets value out of that. And it's nice to hear that, you know. I did put up that boundary and told him I could not hear about his dating life. That that would be off the table. Great. But again, you, you, you, my guess my point is is you do your willingness to hold out hope and he continues to get value out of this friendship. Yeah. In ways that you are not. Okay. So fast forward to now he has texted me a couple more times. He wished me a happy birthday over text this week, which like I'm not reading much into that. He did go to Italy with this woman he had been seeing. And that was a dagger in the heart. But I've since learned that they broke up. And that was really recent. A mutual friend told me that he had broken up with her. I'd gotten coffee with this mutual friend. The friend brought this guy up. I casually asked how this guy was doing. And he said he's good, but he did break up with his girlfriend. So before I knew that information is when I had written into you say written to you saying, please help me move on. I don't think that information changes anything because I do want to keep moving forward. It just sucks to know that he probably at this point only has seen me as a friend. And that's sorry, I don't want to cry. That that sucks, but that's part of it, right? I've been on both ends where sometimes I like someone more than they like me or someone likes me more than I like them. And it yeah, it's just one of those situations where I'm on the losing end of this. I mean, not losing. You're just not getting what you want right now. I mean, I don't want to be friends with him moving forward. But I guess I said that in hopes that maybe I would one day blossom into more or that he would finally see like, I mean, idiot Melissa's here all along. And I know I can't hold on to hope. And I'm trying not to, I'm really trying to extinguish all hope, but I just can't. Why don't you think you can? Because I've dated a decent amount and you know it's rough up there. It's really rough. And so when you find someone who you just feel like you click with on so many levels, you admire them so deeply as a person. It feels really hard to let that go. You know, it's like this might be meant not make any sense. Well, I when people ask me about the bachelor world and things like that and how it all works, again, it's a science experiment. When you go into that world, you know, when it's the last two people standing, you know, obviously many of these relationships don't work out. But in the moment where they're like, I love you. And I let's get married. Like these are two people who really believe that, right? Yes. But so much of that relationship that they don't, what they don't realize in the moment is they how much they don't know about each other. Yep. And they say other things. I admire you so much. I feel like I've known you forever. And when they're saying it, they don't feel delusional. They believe what they're saying. But the truth is it's so much of that relationship as I've talked about is it's it's built on missing each other. And it's built off the idea of each other and so much about that short period of time where these two people are courting each other, courting each other. They're spending such little time together. And then when they have a connect, they have a moment, a connect, they make a connection and they literally get pulled away from each other. And then one person goes and dates other people. The other person goes and sits and waits for that other person to like go date other people, other people while fantasizing about that one connection, that moment that they had. And then in their head kind of thinking about how great, if that moment continued, if we had more of those moments, how great this would be, right? And you kind of fall in love with the idea of this person. And the way you talk, I don't doubt that you have feeling, you know, but you're like, I admire him so much. It's just like, uh, what, what, you know, I don't know, I don't think you've spent that much time with this guy consistently enough to say that you really admire him as a person. I think you have just, you made a connection with this guy and you've had some moments where he's made you feel really good. And he's done, he's done and said enough that makes you see the potential. And, and, and, and my guess is you have taken that and kind of fantasized about what this relationship could be in its potential so much so that you have fallen in love with this fantasy in your head. And it's not based in reality. Yeah, no, yes, I know. I know I'm totally in love with the fantasy of it all. So I know she's a little Lulu and it's hard, it's hard to walk away from that. It is isn't, it isn't, it isn't. What do I do moving forward? If you text me again, do I just say, Hey, I need to be direct. I'm not interested in being friends. And I should have said that from the get go. Yeah. I need to move on with my life. You probably don't need to say anything. You could just not respond. But if you said anything, yeah, I would say that. And you're just like, listen, I, I made a mistake trying to be your friend. You know, I, you know, I think you're great, but I just, I don't want that. I'm not, I'm not confused about how I feel about you. And that's fine. But I think you need to be a little bit more like, I don't need you. I'm not waiting around for you. I mean, I tried to stop allowing him to dictate by cutting him off essentially. And I didn't ask him to reach out. I didn't want him to reach out. Like, yes, there were moments where it felt good that he reached out to know that I was still a flicker of a thought in his mind. Well, that's the, that's the mistake you're making is that you're seeing his occasional reaching out is, Oh, maybe, maybe this, maybe he's finally real. Oh, he's broken up with his girlfriend. Is, am I the reason why? Is he, is he thinking about me? You know, is there a part? You know, he knows how I feel. So he must be, you know, that might, maybe that's it. That's where the hope comes in. But the truth is, is that he's been consistent with his feelings about you, which is he sees you as he values as a friend, but not as a romantic partner. And when he reaches out, he's hoping that you are finally at a place where you can be his friend. Well, fuck. Okay. Yeah. I have not been honest with myself or with him that I just can't be friends with him. Maybe in the next life, but not this one. Don't even say the next life. This is the never. I'm not just feels so sad, though, to build up some kind of friendship with someone for six years. And then like nothing, but this is not a, this is not a friendship that you've, he's never, he's never been your friend. And as far as you're concerned, you've always needed more from him than just a friendship. Every interaction with him, even the moments where he showed up as a friend left you wanting more. And it's made you feel good and bad at the same time. And that's not a French, that's not a friendship. That's, that's something else. And I think if you think about how much energy you've put into this relationship. And while there have been moments of happiness, there's been a lot of moments of sadness and a lot of moments moments of confusion and a lot of moments of frustration. And letting go of him is letting go of all of that. And to say you don't know how you can do that is, you know, it's, you're building it, you're, you've built it up in your head, you know, that sunk cost fallacy. And I think you need to see it for what it is, which is, I haven't been kind to myself or honest with myself. Yes, fine. I, I chased a dream. I was, I leaned in the romance. You don't have to beat yourself up over it. But eventually you do have to see it for what it is. And when you ask yourself, well, how am I going to let go of this? You have to acknowledge that you're, you're letting go of so many sad moments and so many moments of frustration and you're freeing yourself of so much energy that you're wasting on hope. Yeah. I know I've tried to put that energy back to myself and it hasn't worked. And I haven't really thought about it in terms of letting go of the pain and the heartache along with letting go of the fantasy of him and simultaneously, you're, you're, you're building him up in a way that's not fair for you in terms of the potential that's out there for other people. Yes, dating is hard. Yes, it's fine. Hard to connect. It's even harder when you prop him up is this kind of one and a million type of guy who's, who's never giving you what you deserve and has never made you feel actually how you actually want to feel in a relationship and you have told yourself, he's the white whale. He's, you know, it's like, that's not true. He's not, he's not, you know, yes, you have fun with this guy. Yes, you have a lot in common. You know, you can, like you've said, you have dated other people. You have liked people that didn't like you back and vice versa. This isn't the first time this has happened, but you got stuck kind of in your own little bachelor world of only seeing the potential and telling yourself why it's good to be well kind of ignoring all the things that you're not getting in this relationship and not acknowledging that is important in a relationship. 100%. I will say that I look back sometimes and wonder what would have happened if I told him nothing different. So you think we went on one date. It was great. I think if I, if he had said, okay, where do we go from now? And I said, I would like to keep going on dates. Would that have changed anything? Or do you think he probably already had his mind made up? Yeah, I don't think it would have changed anything, you know. Why is that? Because that's how he feels. I don't think you could have done anything. I mean, the only thing, me saying, let's be friends was him saying, okay, she wants to dial this down. So, what I get with her, say that again, I'm not sure I'm following. I told him, I think we should just be friends because I don't think I can date you casually. And so I'm the one who kind of like set the tone. And so he agreed and we walked forward as friends. Here. Okay. I think to answer your question, I think I understand what you're saying. I want to be careful. I say this because I'm not trying to give you hope you don't need. I don't know if it would have changed anything. And I guess my point of you can still do what I think you could have done differently before. And if there's any hope, this is what is going to be required, which is for you, like in the future, or even with him. How did you say it before? Say it again. You're like, I don't think I can be friends with you kind of thing. Well, I had said after our first date, I don't think I can date you in a casual way because of our history and because I do have feelings for you. Have you seen the movie "Woof of Wall Street"? I haven't for so long, are you going to pair me to Leonardo DiCaprio right now? No, I'm going to compare you to Margot Robbie. Okay, let's go. Okay. But there's an iconic scene there where Amy's having an affair and he's like, yeah, we can be friends. And she's like, we're not going to be friends. And she says it in a like a badass. Yes. This is a woman who knows her value and she's like, I'm, guys don't friends with me. I don't, I'm not friends with fucking guys. I date men, men fall in love with me and I get to pick who I want to be with. And if you don't want to be with me, then we're not, you know, we're not going to be friends. And in that scene, you can tell like she speaks of, she talks about herself in a way that where she knows her value. And that's sexy to anyone. I don't care who you are, man, woman or whatever. And when you say things like, well, I don't think I can be friends with you. If I can, I guess I would be willing to do that. And I guess I'll just take whatever I can get. You don't sound like someone who knows their worth. It doesn't, it doesn't come across that way. If you were to rewind way back then, I guess what I would have loved for you to say, I would love for you to channel Margot Robbie and be like, listen, I like how, you know, I like you. And I think we'd have a lot of potential. Like what my wife did to me, which was just like, I want this. You don't. All right. Fuck off. I'm not like, I'm going to go find someone. I'm under fucking around, yeah, I'm going to find someone who does. And then that, you know, then I was like, oh, wait, she, she's going to be fine without me. Do I really want to lose this person? What am I? Well, what do I have to get over if, because you want, you know, if he doesn't want to lose you, he has to realize what he needs to do. But everything you guys have talked about is more like, if you can get over your feelings for him, then maybe you guys can be friends. That's been the, that's been the conversation in this relationship. And at no time, have you been like, you don't get to have me in your life if you don't want what I want. And I'll be fine because I will find someone who does because, you know, so and you can still do that, right? Like, you don't, you don't need to tell him. You can just show him. You could just not call. And if he really forces an answer, are you be like, listen, I'm just, I, I, I, I just stop pretending that we could be friends. Obviously I think you're great and nothing's changed in terms of what I think we can be. But like I, I don't, I'm not, I'm not friends with guys like you, I, you know, I have plenty of friends. I don't need friends. And you make it clear that like, you're not, you don't need him. You want him. You don't need him. And if he doesn't want what you want, then you'll be fine and you'll move the fuck on. And if he wakes up one day and realize he lost, you know, it won't be your problem. And you need to bring that energy not only to him, but your dating life in general because everyone wants something they can't have and everyone wants to feel like if, if, you know, the world wants the person I want. And when you're like, well, I don't want anyone else. I'm going to wait around for you because the only thing that's going to make me happy is you. People are like you, you know? You would have the same feeling if a guy talks like that way to you. You'd be like, well, fuck, man, I guess I'll let you know if I date the world and they, you know, and if you're still, you know, that is when people do that. It's so repelling. Yeah. And I haven't done that to him. I haven't said, okay, I'm going to wait around like, let me know when you're ready. You have. You have. I've said that without actually saying that. Yes. You've, that's, that the whole relationship is you, you, you've been very accommodating to him. Because I, I do care about him as a person and I think when considering that he's been through a hard divorce, I didn't feel like it was okay to be like, hey, I don't want to be your friend. I really want to date you. But for the person you want to be in a romantic relationship, you don't want to be their therapist. You don't want to be their mom. You don't want to be their sister and you don't want to be their friend. You want a man to have his fit figured out. And if he doesn't have it figured out yet, you want him to go figure it out. So that because you've done your work and you've done, you have your life and you deserve someone who's ready to date you. You don't, you don't deserve someone who's figuring their shit out. And you need to see that as a flaw in him, not have some empathy for like this child, you know, who needs a caretaker like that's a, you don't want that relationship. No. I don't think he needs a caretaker, but I think he is sorting some things out. Let him sort it out. He need, you know, that's a him problem. That's, that's, that's not a you put. Yeah. That's not a you problem. He needs to deal with his shit and he doesn't get to think that you're, you're here for him. You're not here for him. So in the spirit of not perpetuating this dynamic that I unintentionally created where he just kind of pops in and says like, I hope you're doing well. If he does that again, can you please just give me a verbatim Technic to text him so I can just end this. No, I don't think you text anything. So I just don't, okay. So I just don't respond. Yeah. If he calls you or in like makes a, you know, if he like, yeah, if he really goes out of his way to get a hold of you or you're on the phone together, then you could just say, like, listen, I, I'm not interested in being your friend and I don't want to sound curved, but I just don't need that in my life. What I want from you is something more. I've always made that clear and I'm sorry. You could be like, you know, I was probably a little confusing to you, but I'm not confused anymore. And I'm just, you know, you got to talk like a boss, you know, like, you know, you're confident in what you want. And you to focus in what you want is not any one person. What you want is to be loved and to be happy. You want what you deserve and you know, you deserve it and you are going to find it and you need to bring that energy to him because again, when I was, you know, when my wife was like, let's, I want to date you, you know, I was getting it, you know, and I, you know, I was, it was easy for me to say no when I felt like she was always going to be there. And this is the mother of my children. This is the love of my life. And even then I was like, yeah, I don't know. And the moment she was like, honestly, I don't need your fucking ass anymore. I was just like, well, then it, that the table's turned, you know, she was like, I, I don't need you. I'm tired of, and I don't need, you're not the only person who can make me happy. I don't need any person to make me happy. I want a partner. You're looking for a partner. You're not looking for some guy who's gonna make you happy or to fulfill some fantasy in your head. And you want to bring that energy. And when you speak to him, stop thinking about what you should say to him. Stop thinking about what he's gonna care about what you say. And I will say even talking to you now, I'm trying to practice that 'cause I at first was like, maybe I shouldn't go on this podcast because maybe I could shoot down any opportunities in the future. And then I was like, fuck whatever he thinks. Like I'm doing this for me. - Yeah, whatever you say to him, just say what you actually want. - Yeah. - 'Cause right now everything you say to him, you're probably thinking, what's he gonna think of that? - I was gonna take it. - How is he gonna take it? Who gives a fuck? He's not your friend. He's never been your friend and you haven't been fair to yourself about what you deserve from this relationship. And he's never been willing to give what you want and you've accepted far less than you deserve from him. And you haven't seen that as a flaw in him. You've seen that as a flaw in yourself. And that's not fair to you. And stop talking about him to your friends. - Yeah, I know the whole Limerons thing, it's got me. Yeah, I really have tried to be easy on my friends and bring him up very sparingly. My therapist is a saint. I don't talk about him every session. But yeah, I really have tried to recognize that like the more I talk about him, the more of a presence he'll have in my life. And so I need to. - Yeah. I mean, this has become kind of an unhealthy obsession. And it-- - Oh God. - It's fine. We've all been there. You know, it's not saying that from a place of judgment, but it is true. And again, very much like that kind of bachelor analogy, when you talk about him and think about him, you're not thinking about or talking about the actual person. You don't even know what's going on. You don't really know him all that well. You're not in communication with him. And you prop him up in your head in a way that's just not real or realistic. And that's the person you're in love with. You're not in love with him. You're in love with this idea of this person the same way. At the end of the bachelor journey, people felt like they've gone through war, fighting all these other people off. And they feel like this sense of euphoria. And when they say, I love you, they mean it, right? Only to come out of that world and realize, okay, well, then they start me in the real person and this real life happens and, you know, and reality hits. And you haven't had reality hit because he's never giving you a chance at what a real relationship is like. So you've just propped him up in your head and convinced yourself he's the only person that can make you happy. And you've painted this picture of this perfect man and he is not. - No, I did make a list. It was a pretty long list of all the things that I don't like about him. That was a long time ago, but it helped, it helped. And this has helped today. - Yeah, you just gotta let him go like in your head. - Yes. - At this point, you talking about him to anyone, a friend, a therapist is you being in a relationship with him in your head. It's that same, and I've talked about this plenty of times, but the hardest part of any breakup is getting rid of the pictures is to like, is to stop thinking about him. - Yeah. - And sometimes we don't want to get over someone. We don't want to move on. We don't want to stop being sad because then it's like really over. Because in, you know, when I think about my hardest breakups, I wasn't ready to move on. And honestly, when I'd go to bed, you know, I was with him. I was in my head. I would, we were together, you know? - Well, you hang on to the sadness 'cause it's all you have left of them. - Yeah, and so you're hanging on to him through these conversations with your therapist, through your friends, and you're in this kind of fantasy relationship in your head with this guy. And you just need to stop. Stop saying I can't get over him, you know. And I think you just need to be a little bit more direct with yourself and a little, you know, give yourself some tough love. And when he pops in your head, you just need to stop. And when a friend asks you about him, and you, as much as you want to talk about it, because then you get to be in a relationship with him, you need to, you need to, like, say, I'm not. - Shut it down. - I'm not doing that. And if you can stay consistent with that, you will get over him. You're not letting yourself get over him. So step one is stop telling yourself I can't get over him. - Yeah, there's a part of me that doesn't want to get over him, but a bigger part of me that does. So I will maybe step my way through this process. - If he really wants to be with you at any point, and he needs the fight for you, he needs to beg for you to come back. He needs to acknowledge what he's, you know, that he fucked up and he really wants, you know, but short of that, you know, there's no trial, there's no, like, well, let's see how it goes. Well, maybe, you know, maybe we can, if he like pitches you, like, well, let's just hang out and be friends and maybe something, no, no. He knows what it's like to be your friend. - Yeah. - You know, short of him knocking in your door and being like, I'm in love with you, let's date, that you don't entertain anything. - Yeah. - Okay. - And you don't need to reach. - You don't need to pull it out of him. You know, you're not, again, you're not as therapist. You know, he's not having a hard time finding his feelings. You know, you're not, you know what I'm saying? Like, he's a big boy. - Yeah. - If he really wants this, he'll do it. - Yeah. - I'm too fucking nice and it ends here. - You're not that nice to yourself. - No, I'm not. So if you have another hour, we can talk about that. No, but this has been really helpful today, Nick. I think this is kind of the springboard I need to actually finally decisively move on. - Okay. All right, keep us posted. - Thank you. - All right. - All right, thanks for your help. - All right, bye-bye. - All right, bye. - How's it going? - I'm good, how are you? - I'm Chelsea, I'm 34 and my husband gives me the it. - Okay. - And I don't know how to go about this. - How bad, how bad is it? - It depends on the day, things are up and down and the it is on a scale, for sure. - Is this like affecting our marriage to the point of like, I don't know if I can keep doing this type of thing? - It is. There's the physical part, there's some emotional things. It's definitely not a new thing, it's just gotten progressively worse. - Okay. - And I feel like we've tried some things and I'm at a point where I don't even know how to approach it. I need a male's perspective. - All right, let's talk about it. So tell me, tell me about it. - So we've been together for nine years, Mary for five, we have two kids with one on the way. Basically, this time last year, our marriage actually was like at a breaking point. I think a lot of it was driven by maybe the job he had at the time and we had just drifted apart in a major way, along the lines though, he's gained a ton of weight, he's lost all his interest, he has no hobbies, he just kind of lost himself, he doesn't seem like the guy I fell in love with. - Okay. - We did get into couples therapy, it didn't do much for us, we're no longer doing couples therapy, seemed like when our marriage was at the breaking point about a year ago, he was willing to make some changes, but since then, it's kind of gone out the window and now it's become, you know, the weight's still there, there's still no hobbies, there's still no interest and kind of every little thing he does drives me insane. And then there's like the physical aspects in the sense of like, I constantly find myself wondering, you know, if you were going on a first date, would you do this, right? Like we, for instance, we're on a ski trip away from our kids, which doesn't happen very often. And so I'm expecting a conversation, intimacy, all of the things and we get back from skiing and like you won't even take a shower before we go to dinner and I'm like, let's grow, so we've been skiing all day. Like you want to have sex later? That's weird. Like I don't want that. And I'm kind of like, well, why do I have to be the only one that tries in that aspect? And it's just, now I feel like we can't have a conversation about the physical part or the emotional part without arguing that I don't know how to approach the subject anymore. - Okay, okay. So I'm just curious, how would you bring up, he doesn't think to take a shower. How was that addressed? - I mean, in the moment, I'm like, really, you're not going to take a shower? And he's like, no, I didn't ski that hard today. And I'm like, I specifically remember being on the mountain being like, I'm sweating, it's hot out here. Like, and I'm like, okay. But even if we didn't ski that hard, like why wouldn't you shower before you're going to go on a date with your wife? - Okay. And are you like, can you please shower? And he's like, no? - Yeah. - So in that scenario, who do you think's dying on the hill? - I think he is at that point. Because I mean, like, I've already showered. I'm put my makeup on. I'm getting ready to go out. I mean, he's a grown 40 year old man. I can't like force him to get in the shower. - I'm curious. - He's not my three year old. - When your marriage was at your breaking point, you're in couples therapy. - Yes. - Did he acknowledge your frustrations? And I guess what changed so much that you got, I mean, you guys decided to have another child together. So like, things must have been decent enough or was that happy accident or? Kind of a happy accident, to be honest, in the sense that the third child was actually kind of off the table. We had always said we wanted three, but we actually did have like an accident. We hadn't had sex in months and then we did over the holidays. And I ended up getting pregnant and I miscarried. And then after the miscarriage, emotionally, it felt like something was missing. So then we kind of changed our mind. - Okay. Actually trying for the third and but it has been something even for instance when we tried and I did get pregnant he was like you're not into this and I'm like no I'm not it's how does he handle that like I mean I mean he's like okay, but there's no like why aren't you into like he doesn't seem like he cares like why I'm not that into it or What not so that's always like I don't know how to talk to him about these things and I feel like a lot of the things I have to say like They're not easy to hear and he's my husband I do love him and I don't want to hurt him. I don't I don't want to be mean to him I don't want to like make him feel like a piece of shit because he's he's not a piece of shit person He's not a piece of shit dad like I'm sure it's not easy to have your wife come to you and be like I'm not really attracted to you I'm not feeling like loved in the way that I need to feel loved like you know We can't communicate while like those aren't easy things to hear. I know but I also can recognize If I'm feeling this way he's probably feeling this way too at least in some form and you guys were in couples therapy What what was the topic that you guys addressed the most it was at that point him like showing up more Um and like making some changes to be around for our family at that point he had a different job which required him to commute About three hours a day and so he just really wasn't around much and the job itself was very toxic and He was really stressed um and it was affecting like our home life greatly And so that was like the biggest conversation, but like you know a lot of these things did come up in the sense of like I'll use the wait for example. I'm like I Take attraction inside of it. I'm also concerned like we have young kids in your 40 years old Like I don't want you to be unhealthy like there's that piece of it Two and so like I have said those things, but we just never really got anywhere in couples therapy Our therapist was really expensive and we both felt like we were just like not getting anywhere that we were like Let's just stop. I don't feel like it opened the lines of communication I don't feel like we got the tools we needed and so that's why we're kind of still in this spot Does he know you're calling in to say curious? No, he doesn't okay. No I mean, what do you think his point of view is? I mean, I think his point of view is that I'm a little detached which I I think I am because I think I've been feeling this way for Two years that like I'm a little like it's not going to change and I'm just kind of we're in a little bit of a roommate Raising kids together. What do you What do you guys think you do agree on as far as your marriage? I think we have still like the same like I think we still have the same direction like I think we still have the same Family goals in the sense of like what we want for our family and The life we are building and I think we're still aligned on all of that I think we're not aligned on like I don't know if the day to day is the right way to put it but maybe On like expectations of each other Well, that's what I think I think I understand you're saying and I think it's what I was hoping you would say in the sense that like You guys Despite all your problems and despite the disconnect you both feel It sounds like you still you feel like you both still want to be married You both still want to love each other You both still want ideally to make each each other happy But you just know you're not doing it and you're not sure how to do it and you're both are kind of stuck Right does that sound fair? Yeah, I think well I don't think in like like I said like we were on the brink of divorce last year and It was one of those things where like I felt like maybe at that point I kind of had the upper hand but I'm like I don't want to break up my family I don't actually want to leave him like that's not what I want. I want to fix this You feel like he feels that way I do like I don't I don't want to start over but it's not even like the fear of starting over That keeps me in my marriage. It's literally like I mean, I married him for a reason and like I do I believe we can fix this Have you guys ever had like a A sit-down where it wasn't about fixing the problems But it just like an airing of grievances in a sense not even grievances, but like just like Just tell me how you feel complain like we're just What's bothering you both of you, you know, did have you heard him out? Have you heard each other out? I don't know. I think a little bit in couples therapy. That's kind of how we started It was kind of like get it out on the table I think when we've tried to Have conversations like that. We both get on the defense immediately. So those conversations don't always go well I think what you're saying is like have you been able to have a conversation without doing that right? Just like literally put it all out there and I don't I don't know that we have. Okay. Just using your example Yeah, and I'm sure you know if you listen to the show you've heard me talk about even like so much of these conversations It's just how it's communicated. It's the nuance in your scenario about the shower and the skiing Yeah, there's a part where it's just like you're like I don't want to have to ask you to do this and it annoys me. I'm guessing that's the energy he probably feels And it kind of sounds motherly and it sounds like nothing makes me more mad than when my wife talks down to me And and talks to me like I'm one of her kids Which I think is a lot pretty common when it comes to wives and husbands and we often deserve it I'm not doubting that but it's still like, you know, it's thankfully we don't do that a lot with each other But we're only human. We're you know, we're like any other couple. We're not perfect But that's the shit that just like it's I guess you could say it's triggering right? So on some level You have to understand that your your husband is who he is right? He's an imperfect person and he okay He doesn't want he doesn't want a shower or whatever whatever his reasons are But I feel like you're you should be as a couple you should be able to say listen Can you just shower for me and and he could go okay? My wife wants me to shower she wants me to be clean As long as he's willing to shower it doesn't matter why he's showered and that moment I would love for you to like not be like I shouldn't have to ask you to do this I'm annoyed that you know like you should you know, you don't want to you know It's like you don't want to like smell good for me and yada yada yada like I don't think that's the reason why he's not doing He's just being lazy. Yeah You know either that makes sense and so when you're having that conversation You're probably communicating away where you're you're probably either directly or indirectly Making him feel like a disgusting piece of shit And so instead of just showering he's just he's just like no fuck that you know like I'm yeah You know what I'm saying then that's how he gets defensive right and you guys Have to try to find that like just get the thing done that we want to get done Yeah, and who cares how we get there You know, am I making sense? Yeah, no that makes sense I guess it always just makes me feel like I'm like okay Well, like why would you try when we're dating and now like I guess I've kind of felt in our marriage like he's like gotten It's like oh, I'm married. I don't have to try anymore. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's definitely probably not what have happened when we were dating Yeah, well there is listen. There's a little bit of like I would love to see you guys get to a place Where you both kind of acknowledge hey, we've lost a little bit of our spark life has happened We've had kids life is hard. We have a lot going on We want to save this marriage and obviously it's not realistic to pretend that we're dating again and we don't have kids But like I think we can be intentional about like Let's try to like date again Let's try to make those extra efforts that we wouldn't normally do because I want I just want to feel that right We both have to give a shit, you know, and I guess that's where I feel like my husband's not like I'll just even use like he's gained like Almost 60 pounds. I've had now. I've been pregnant four times. I've gotten back in shape every single time Like all the things and I'm like you haven't had kids. What's your excuse? We'll see that when you say it like that That's again, I how you're saying it is definite. I don't know. It's I'm not saying it like that to him Okay, that's what you're going on in the inner okay, well good How are you saying it to him? I'm not really saying it at all and when I have brought it up like the last time I brought it up wasn't couples therapy and I was more like I actually am concerned from a health perspective in the sense that like all your siblings are diabetic Your father almost died at the age of 60 Due to a heart problem because of being overweight like this isn't something to mess around with like our kids are going to be 20 years old when you're 60 have you said I want you to take better care of yourself Yeah, what's he say he did for like a week And that's it. It's been a year. He still hasn't Worked out or tried to take better care of himself. Have you asked him why he feel why why he says he's just lazy and I'm like Okay, well you can be lazy, but there's even a lazy lazy ways to take care of yourself I got I said well I'm glad he can admit is lazy, but laziness is something that's hard for other people who aren't lazy to accept Yeah, because in when it's laziness is a is a like in that Word is like a I don't give a fuck right right laziness is like I I have a responsibility To do something, but I don't feel like doing it Because I don't want to and okay fair enough, but like as a husband as a father you have a responsibility to your family To get over that. Yeah, and I know like my therapist is like okay Well, you kind of have to meet him in the middle a little bit in this and so like there's two ends of the spectrum There's like the complete laziness, and then there's like the complete fitness psycho which I fall over here And I'm like I can meet him in the middle. It's the fact that there's like no So you consider yourself a bit of a fitness psycho. Oh no, I am I'm a nutrition coach. I'm very into weightlifting. I do high rocks. I'm very bad at this. Do you feel like your feelings about your husband are as objective as someone who is not as intense as you are with incomes to fitness? Yeah, because I mean like his friends have mentioned it and stuff to him too. You have a big disconnect in that department. You being so hardcore and he's like the literal opposite. His laziness doesn't bother him. No, and I mean he's not lazy in the sense of like if it comes to work, he's not lazy. He's a very hard worker as far as like his career is concerned, but he's lazy in most other aspects of his life. And it doesn't bother him because he's like well, I'm successful in this other area and he kind of equates a success to monetary value and like nothing else. And I'm like that there's a lot of other aspects to life. What your marriage. Yeah. You guys are not being currently successful in your marriage. We're not. Yeah. And if nothing else, you'd want that to bother him. I think it does because again, I'm like, if I'm feeling this way, he had like he, I know he doesn't think things are good. And I know he can't be feeling great. I know I he's not meeting my needs. So I know I'm not meeting his. Well, maybe that's the conversation you guys need to have where it's just like listen. I love you. You're the father of my children. I fell in love with you. I still love you. Obviously, you know, we, you know, how can we talk about how we're not meeting each other's needs? Recognizing we're both not knowing that, you know, as your wife, I want to meet your needs. I still hope you still want to meet my needs. Can we talk about just how we're, we're falling short of that? Would he be open to that conversation? Yeah, I think he would. How do you feel like you're not meeting his needs right now? I don't think I'm being very nice to him right now to be honest. Okay. I'm 10 weeks pregnant. I don't feel very good. So the last, the last few weeks have been very challenging, especially with two kids already. But I think like I said, I'm like, I'm so disconnected. I think it's like, I'm just short and not, not very loving. What do you ever work out with you? No. Who doesn't want to work out with the other person more him. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, there's no way. What if it's like taking a walk together? Well, that's it. Yeah, I mean, he will with the kids or whatnot, but it's definitely always like my idea. And like, let's do this and he's going to do whatever. But yeah, I just, I think I felt so disconnected to him for so long that I kind of went a little numb and have just been probably short and whatnot. And then he's not meeting your needs by this kind of general things just like the general laziness. And yeah, I don't feel loved. I don't feel appreciated. I don't feel like he's generally lazy. And it's, yeah, it's just gotten to a point, you know, even, you know, I'm definitely like the primary parent. I work, my job is not as demanding. I'm around more, but he's had to pick up the slack with me being pregnant. And he's like complaining about it. And then like, dude, it's like you had to do it for like six weeks while they don't feel good. And when you say a complaint, like, how does he, how is he complaining about it? Like, for instance, Tuesday, I was at work all day throwing up. Our son had to go to the doctor. He didn't want me to cancel my day at work. I had a full load of patients. And he was like, don't cancel. I have a light meeting day. I'll take him to the doctor. But when I got home, I was like literally throwing up. So like, I was throwing up and I went to kind of bad. So he was kind of on his own with the kids. And then he got mad. He's like, I just thought I signed up to take him to the doctor, not to solo parent all night. And I'm like, the amount of nights I have solo parented over the last four years is like countless. I asked you to do it one time. And like, mind you dinner was prepped. Like, I'm not asking you to like cook meals or do laundry or anything. I'm like, literally just asking you to like, what do you say? Help. And he was just like, Oh, I'm a deadbeat. Well, I'm like, no one said that. I'm like, I just need you to help like a little bit right now and not complain about it. And like, I'm sorry. I was really down bad. Like, it wasn't my first choice either. But like, I literally couldn't function. So it's like stuff like that where I'm like, when I need you to step up, all you do is complain about it. So like, how am I supposed to feel? Like, I can't really count on you to step up or ask you to step up when I need you. So like, as a wife, right? Like, I'm kind of like, I can count on you to provide for the family, but that's about it. In all other aspects, you like seem like it's an inconvenience. How much do you praise him for what he does do? Probably not enough. Um, I definitely think, you know, he's a great provider in the sense that like, and he's a good dad in the sense that like, he is very loving. He's great with our kids and he's good at like, taking the kids to do things and whatnot. But like, I don't think as far as like, you know, the other aspects of like running a household, he's like, very helpful or whatnot. So it's like, I don't know, I guess I, I think of being a dad and a mom has a lot more than just like playing with my kids and providing with them. I think there's a lot of a lot of other responsibilities besides those two things. And I think those are the two things that he's like, well, if I'm doing those two things, I'm good. Yeah. I mean, yeah, your example is a touch for me to understand his point of view. Yeah, this is tough. I mean, listen, I, you know, I don't know how much of me to solve your problem. Yeah. This is definitely one of those things where, you know, I wish sometimes I would have both people here. It sounds to me like you guys are not functioning as a team. Yeah, that's correct. I would love for you guys as a couple to just acknowledge that together without pointing fingers and just say we could be a better team. And as teammates, it's just one, one common goal and we both have our strengths and our weaknesses. We both have things we prefer to do and we have things we don't prefer to do. But sometimes as a teammate, you have to step up and make the sacrifice, you know, and I would love for you guys to both like at least acknowledge that we could be better teammates. And like right now it's just like as a, you know, thinking using like sports analogies and teammates right now you guys are just frustrated at each other as teammates and more focused on critiquing what you're not doing. Rather than trying to take a step back and just finding that common ground, I guess. Now that being said, like it's it is frustrating, you know, at a minimum your husband needs to recognize that you have some valid frustrations they may be hard to accept they may be hard to hear. But like that doesn't change the fact that he still has some responsibility to do something about it. You know, I, you know, I can come up with all the excuses many of which are valid, you know, busy, we got twins, we have a, you know, we have a two and a half year old, I have a company to run, we have very busy lives. I never feels like I have a moment and these are all valid, you know, and granted I'm still in decent, I'm in good shape overall, you know, but at some point I do recognize that I could be doing more and I could be. To get a better care of myself at some point I might have to get my shit together so to speak I yeah he has to acknowledge that a little bit. I think marriage is really struggle when you're both kind of leading with your frustrations and when you start criticizing the other person. It just feels like the, you know, like I think both of you I think it's safe to say both of you probably don't feel the love from the other person. Yeah, I think that's yeah, I don't so I know I don't think he does either so I think that's obviously a missing piece right now, but I think what you're saying is like crack we're like not functioning like teammates and then like we're leading with frustration on both and so then it just creates this constant battle instead of like an even playing field. Yeah, and have recently I mean like again you're pregnant right now you have two kids like I think at some point I'd be like I don't I want us to work I want us to be a family I want us to like get through this I know we can I love you but how do we we both need to make some changes yeah I think right now it's really important when you're frustrated and trying to talk to him to try to use we in us language as much as possible. Even when you're like very frustrated right I know it's not you know because. Right now it's very much I do this you don't do this you know I'm this you're this you know and then he has then his first reaction is well what but I do this and you don't do that when you start hearing me in you. Then he's going to focus on his himself to rather than we are frustrated with each other we are not feeling validated by the other person I hate that we feet we are making each other feel this way. And I think do you agree that that's sad for us kind of thing and find that common ground well then what what can we do about it together is a couple how can we fix this you know you both you know we both as individuals are going to have to make some changes and and do things for the other person because we want to be happy you know it's like. It's that that kind of thing you know it's just I just feel like right now you guys really have to focus on finding common ground rather than trying to get the other person to. to see your point of view. - Yeah, I think that's a really good point 'cause I think that's what we've been doing. I've been bashing my head against the wall, trying to get him to see exactly what I'm saying. - That's never gonna, it's probably never gonna happen. You're two different people. - Yeah. - Not only in some cases, you're polar opposites. You are self-identified, kind of highly driven, highly functioning person. He is self-emitted a little lazy, you know? And you're gonna always butt heads there. - Yeah. - But you both have to remind yourselves that those two people still fall in love and got married and chose to have kids together. And you guys have both lost that. And it's not a heed to this and you did that. It's, we did this. We got ourselves in this situation and we need to find our way out of it. So how do we do this together? And I just know that I want us to make it through this and how can we do, you know, it's just a lot of that. 'Cause then it's just like, okay, I'm a part of this team and I have some responsibility too. If I'm a coach and I'm talking to my players, it's like, let's do this. How do we bring each other up? When you start thinking about us and the team and we, I think it's easy to start thinking, all right, I gotta do my part. But when the coach is like, why the fuck did you do that? We're not gonna win if you keep doing that. You gotta stop doing that. Everyone else is doing their job, but the fuck's wrong with you, you know? Like, I mean, at some point, you might have to have a come to Jesus moment, but that's probably not gonna get that person to think as the team. You know, when someone feels like they're failing the team and they're being blamed for it, they, again, it's fight or flight. They start worrying, they don't wanna get cut from the team. - Yeah. - They're not worried about the team winning. They're worried about being a part of the team. And right now, it's like you guys are both quitting on each other in a way, you know? And kind of almost threatening that you're no longer gonna be a part of this team because you can't, you know, you need to do better. And right now, that's kind of how you're talking to each other. It sounds like rather than, I don't know if this is helpful. I don't know, I think-- - No, I think it is, 'cause I think it's just a different way to think about it and approach it, opposed to just being like, you need to see my point of view. It's just like it, it's saying the same thing in a different way. I think it's like, again, more focused on like finding, how do we do this together instead of like you fix this and I'll fix this and then like hopefully we can get along again. And like start actually like being the family we wanna be again because we're not being that right now. - And the part of you that looks at him and goes, that's disgusting that you don't wanna shower after you skied. - Yeah. - You have to try to let, that's your kind of neurotic hardcore, highly functioning person that's just like, your way is gross and my way is better. And it annoys me that you don't think like the way I do. And when you come from that approach, that's just gonna make him feel stupid and gross and useless. And that doesn't motivate anyone. - Right, yeah. - It's just like, I'm gonna lean in. I'm gonna lean in because you know what? I am who I am and it's not as bad as you make it out to be. And I'm gonna prove a point that I'm gonna go to dinner and no one's gonna tell me I smell bad. And you know, like that's how it's probably nailed. - You're just not getting laid, but that's fine. - Yeah, but at that point, he's mad at you before making him feel gross and he's like, well fine, you know what, I'm great, I'm not, you know. At that in that moment, it's more like, can you do this for us, can you do this for me? Thank you for taking a shower. - Yeah. - I appreciate it, you know, and it's gotta stop there. And you can't, you have to try to not huff him puff, roll your eyes, make your comments, and make him feel like a gross little boy. - Yeah. - Because you're not the same person. And you, there's a part of you that probably has to accept that more than you're accepting that. Now, on his end, he needs to not use his laziness as an excuse not to do things. - Yeah. - And if he doesn't wanna do it for himself, he has to wanna do it for his family. And he has to wanna do it for his wife. He responds differently to you, and you have to find a way to, but he does have to give a shit to a certain extent. And it's not for himself, the way, you know, you can do that for yourself, because you can look in the mirror and go, I don't like who I am, I'm gonna do something about it. He has a harder time with that. And he probably needs his wife, his teammate, his coach in a way to get him motivated in a way that doesn't make him feel less than. And that's the, that's the trick that you have to find. And he has to, he has to wanna do it for his family. And he has to be like, you know what? I did care more when we were dating. And I should care enough if I'm not gonna do it for myself. I should be motivated because I want my wife to like, I wanna take off my shirt and go, yeah, she's checking me out. - Yeah. - And you have to find a way to make him feel good about himself. And, you know, be each other's cheerleaders in a way that probably is frustrating. - Yeah, I think you're right. And I think that's what I'm like looking for him to do is like, just be like, okay, well, my wife wants this and whatnot. Cause yeah, the way I think about it too. I'm like, if he was just like, look, I really hate when you wear yellow. Like I probably wouldn't wear yellow very often, you know? Or if he's like, I really hate when your hair is this color. I probably wouldn't make my hair that color. Just as a way to make him happy. It just seems like very little things. But I think, yeah, I think you're right. We just, we need to use some different language. And then we both need to be a little bit more accepting of like who the other person is while still trying to be the person the other one needs. - Yeah, I think maybe the next conversation you guys have to have is just like a state of the union. - Yeah. - Which is like, again, we in us language. We're obviously very frustrated with each other. We're not in the best place in our marriage. But what I do know is I love you. You're an amazing father. You've been a great partner over the years. I want to be with you. I want us as a family to get to a better place. And I want to do my part. And I hope that you want to do yours. And we just have to find some common ground. And can we at least agree on that? And how do we get there? And just both try to make some concessions. And I would love for him to just vent, you know, like hot. What, how are ways I can make you feel better as a wife? I'm curious what he would say. - Yeah. - And then he should ask, well, how are ways I can make you feel better as a husband, you know? Yeah. And then in those moments, like the other night where you were talked about, obviously in the heat in the moment, it's never the best time to address something 'cause you're both, you're frustrated, you're puking. He's probably, I don't know, I don't know what it was. He stressed that at work. I can't tell you how many times that Naly, especially with twins, there'll be moments where she'll be like, can you just do this? And I'm thinking, I haven't sat down in 12 hours. And I'm thinking, how can you not recognize? You know, but then I realized, well, she can't, either is she? You know, but like, you know, you're both, you know, we have the benefit of still being a relatively new couple-ish, you know, at least a marriage. And we, you know, but fast forward five years, it might be harder for us to empathize with the other person's point of view. You know, you guys are just, your disconnect has been a little, it's, but you've been disconnect for a little too long, and it's been harder for you guys to find that empathy for each other, each other. And so maybe in that conversation, you can just say, like, listen, they other night, obviously we were both frustrated. And I just want to get to a place where we can understand the other person better. Yeah. And like just, and that's the only stated goal. It's not like I, you, that's not the time to explain what your point of view and why you were right. I think we can both agree in that moment. You guys were both very frustrated. You both were probably overworked. You were probably, you were probably both overstimulated. Yeah, obviously you're pregnant and, you know, I, right now I'm, you know, you tell that story, I'm like, I fucking get shit together, dude. You know, I'm, I'm definitely see your side 'cause I wouldn't have responded that way, but I also don't know what it's like to be in his shoes. I don't know what it's like to be your and your marriage. And I don't know what it's like to have been married for five years. And we, and thankfully, haven't dealt with a major disconnect in our marriage like you guys are dealing with now. But we, we, we might, we probably will someday. And it will be really important for us to try not to make the other person feel like they're the problem. Yeah. And I think what I'm thinking as you say that, it's like instead of competing for like, who's more unhappy, like we're trying to keep score right now and we're not like just starting from zero. Yeah. I think that's, that's a good point. So yes, I'm gonna try that. Let's stay to the end. Yeah, even, yeah, if you're common ground is your mutual misery and frustration with each other, at least you can agree on that, you know? Hopefully, hopefully we can find another common ground that we'll see, but at least it would be a starting for you. But your biggest thing that I can confidently say when it comes to your personality differences, when you're, when he's being lazy and you just don't get it, you have to really try not to be mean. Yeah, I think I used to be better at that. And then it was like, when the second, it was, we say this, I mean, I've said this with my friends, it's like with one kid, the things still seemed like they were, it was like adding the second that I was like, now I have like no patience. And then, I mean, you just went from one to three who were about to go from two to three. Like, I'm like, yeah, for some reason, the addition of the second kid, I'm like, I just don't. It's nine day. No, I was talking, we were, we were having a conversation with our teams, whatever, whatever, not that that's not relatable. But you know, because when we had river, not not a lot changed for us. We were on a plane. We were on flights every week. You know, we have, we're very lucky to have the life that we have, but the life that we have as lucky as we are is a lot of work to even maintain. And when you had one kid, it was like, yeah, she's just going to go where we're going to go. And I was like, explain, I was like, guys, we have three kids now. Things are different. Like the calculus is different. We're not as successful. I need you guys to anticipate the fact that like when you guys are telling me I have to do something, I have to worry about who's taking care of my three kids, you know, and yeah, I hear you. It's, it's, it's definitely a lot different when you have more than one kid. Yeah, it seemed easier to get back on the same page, but we still need to be able to do it. So when you have that conversation, that's the grace you guys give each other. It's like, listen, it was really hard for both of us to have a second kid. And I think we lost ourselves a little bit in that. And that's why you can empathize with each other. Like it was hard for both of us. And we just, I think I want us to you, like, I just want us to love each other. I want us to make each other feel more valued than we're doing. We're not doing a good job of that. I, I'm not doing a good job. We're both not doing a good job. I want us to care enough to want to make each other happier because I, I just don't want us to be a cliche because the problems you guys are both having now, you guys get divorced. They're not, they're not going anywhere. Your, your next partner is not going to be like you five years into that relationship. You know, you're both, so I think if nothing else, you can recognize that about each other. It's just like, let's just fix these problems that we have are us problems that will, will carry us in the, you know, in the next relationship. We can get divorced. We can go, you know, and we can to start dating again. And we can find people, especially early on when we're dating, that make us feel validated in ways that we're not making each other feel validated now because people won't be aware of our bullshit and our bad habits yet because we'll be back dating again. But fast forward five years, I don't, I don't want to be dealing with this with another person who's not the father of my kids and vice versa. So let's figure this shit out. You know, let's, let's, let's, you know, let's do this together. Yeah. And so, you know, and I think hopefully, again, if you talk like a teammate and realize that this is a common goal, I think that will hopefully go a long way. But he does have to, he has to give a shit. I think him giving a shit. And that's like, I feel like what I've been trying to like get him to realize like for the last year is like you caring a little bit more about a few things would go such a long way with me. Like I don't expect you to be perfect. And like as far as like mothering in the house, like I do expect to have more of those responsibility. We've designed our life. So I do have more of those responsibilities. I'm not looking for you to like be super dad and super employee. And like it's impossible. You can't do everything at once. So I'm okay with that. I just need a little effort. And like you said, I need you to give a shit a little bit more or like if we're, you know, going out to dinner, I want you to like want to try for me. That's all like it's just it all seems simple. But I think we're not realizing the simplicity because we haven't been able to like get on the same page with it. But I think what you're suggesting and like going about it that way could go a long way with it. So yeah. And you can say like I realize that when I do I'm not saying the right things to get to you to see, you know, we're we're not saying you're not we're not saying it the right way. We're just making each other feel worse. I don't want to I don't want to keep doing that. But yeah, he also like at some point you can say like when I'm asking for your help, you know, you saying well, I didn't sign up for it. It's like neither of us signed up for this, you know, but like we need to when we're when one of us is down bad, we used to pick each other up. And right now we're not doing that. And I want us to want to do that for each other again. Yeah. You gave me some good some good things to think about and to approach him less. So I think I think I think I can move forward with this and try to have the conversation. Okay. Keep it posted. I'd love to know how it goes. Yeah. I'm hoping that by the time this baby comes things are better. Sure. Well, yeah. But that will be by the work you guys put into it. Yeah. Find the common goal and the common goal is you guys want to make this marriage work and you want to keep this family together. And that's hard. It's hard for people to do. Yeah. Give each other some grace and realize this is hard. This is hard for a lot of people. But I want us to not be the cliche. I want us I want us to ones who overcame this. And I think we'll both be proud of each other. And let's let's figure this out. Let's not quit on ourselves and on each other in our kids. We both have to help each other out. Yeah. So how can I help you? And I'd love for you to be open and interested in how you can help me. And I'd love for us to be willing to do that for the other person and see what he says. Yeah. All right. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thank you. I hope it was helpful. These are these are tough these are tough conversations because yeah. Sometimes I hear these conversations. I you know, I get frustrated at men sometimes where it's just like pro like just you know, but again, like I'm only hearing one side of the story. I'm not saying you're not, you know, but it's yeah, I can't, you know, like I think most people, even him, he doesn't he doesn't want to he clearly feels bad about himself some way. And he needs to figure out how to find his groove. So to speak, you know. Yeah. I agree. And he needs your help. Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much. This yeah, it was helpful. All right. All right. Well, thanks for the call. I appreciate it. Thank you. All right. Take care. Congratulations, by the way. Thank you. You as well. Thanks.