E12 Raza y racismo en Colombia en tiempos de pandemia

Clase a la Casa is a podcast sponsored by the Faculty of Social Sciences of the University of Los Andes and produced by Project 070 and 070 Podcasts. 070 is an independent journalism medium sponsored by the University of Los Andes which seeks to spread bridges between the academy and journalism. The University of Los Andes continues. This is Clase a la Casa. A virtual continuation of the initiative Clase a la Calle which has been in its effort for four years to get the academy out of the classroom. In this podcast, professors from the University of Los Andes will talk about the challenges that COVID-19 offers us as a community. It is the turn of the social sciences. This is Clase a la Casa. Stories for what comes. Welcome to the 12th episode of Clase a la Casa Stories for what comes. We will talk again about Ana María Otero-Cleves, professor of history at the University of Los Andes. Today we have Javier Ortiz-Casiani to talk about race and racism in the times of the pandemic. Before I start, I want to introduce you to Javier. Javier is a historian at the University of Cartagena. He has a teacher in history at the University of Los Andes and is a candidate, doctor in history at the College of Mexico. In addition, Javier is an ordinary collaborator of the viewer and the misunderstander. Javier was explored from a historical perspective, the race in Colombia and its impact on the actions and perceptions of society today. Javier, thank you very much for joining us. No, thank you for the invitation. Super, Javier, so I wanted to start with a reflection before I throw you to the first question. In the last month, the discussions about race and racial discrimination have been issues of all days. And most of all, we all know this as a cause of George Floyd's death on May 25th, while he was under police custody in the United States. This has generated protests against racial violence in everyone, including several countries in Latin America. And in Colombia, there have also been some demonstrations, for example, with punctual complaints, even specific cases such as the death of Anderson Arboleda. So, to understand a little bit the dimension of this problem, I would like to start with a broad question that has to do with, and I think this can be an interesting point of discussion with the differences between the experience of the United States and Latin America. And I think that my question was more oriented with the desire to question some stereotypes and preconceptions that we have about race in Latin America. So, my first question would be, what measures would be comparable to racism in the United States with Latin America, and what do you think are the differences? Well, Ana María, that is perhaps the great question, and the one that has been debated for a long time. From the books of Frantan & Vaughn and Davis Brown Davis, when they were talking about, one of them was talking about the supposed benign condition of slavery in Latin America, in the spaces that would later be Latin America, unlike the United States. What is there, of course, are very clear similarities, and they are both products of colonialism, of colonial power, of a model. It is the installation of a colonial, hegemonic model of power that is also supported in the construction of a race idea, of building another and of inferiorizing that other. To have the possibility of controlling the other, you have to build a difference with that other. The difference is that that other is saved, is uncivilized, and it has to be saved, saved by this civilization. That is what it looks like, that is exactly the same. Racism depends on both territories of that. Now, as for differences, we would have to say that it has to do with the same models of colonial exploitation, and the construction of societies, on the one hand, with greater cross, with greater mestizage, and on the other, with greater separation. In the case of the United States, the black population, the African-American population, remains isolated in some way, even after the abolition of slavery. While in the Latin American area, the black population is mixed very early. That does not mean that communities are not preserved, well, the Simarrones people, those same communities, in certain spaces where there is little penetration, or little cross with white population, or mestiza population, but normally a mestizage is much stronger, and that generates another type of relationship. I think that's good to have it clear, historically, to know in what terrain we step on from the discussion. I mean, one could almost say that this stereotype that it has generated that in Latin America there is less racism can not be explained by this idea of mestizage, that what you do really allows us to have a different perception of the way racism is experienced in Latin America, I suppose. Of course, it plays a very important role in that, that the mestizage is the discourse that is going to scream the intellectuals, the propagandists of the nation in the construction of the liberal republics of Latin America. They are going to talk about the construction of the mestiza nations, and in the idea of the construction of the mestiza nations, what is being done is, in reality, it is not the construction of equal conditions, but of invisibilization or inferiorization of indigenous supports and Afro supports. Almost that mestizage is to become white or to become civilized. And that's why the discourse of the mestizage is very long to talk about that there is no racism, because here we are all white, black, indigenous, and we are all integrated, but obviously in practice, that is not translated into practice, because the prejudices towards certain sectors continue to be there, they continue to be present. So that is a bit the myth of the supposed Latin American integration, that it always screams when it is going to talk about the difference with the United States. That does not mean that there is no difference, but of course there is racism in Latin America. I like how you are positioning it, because one can talk about differences, and it is giving us historical experiences to understand those differences, but then I would understand what it is more about, it is about manifestations and different nuances that make less or more visible structural racism. And that does not mean that racism does not exist, but rather that it is how different manifestations are manifested, and it is more, yes, that they are different nuances. And in that sense I wanted to ask you yesterday that we were talking a little about this topic before the podcast, that I really liked the reflection you made at that time, is going through that historical experience, what did you give us that historical experience to understand why certain societies react differently to this type of discrimination? I'm going a bit to what has happened right now, like the United States and the United States, and everyone is protesting here, no. You are that as reflected by the historical experience that we have in the form of how we associate racism, even the classism in Latin America? Yes, of course, of course. You have to have a very clear thing, and it is that racism and class in Latin America are almost directly proportional. There is a very strong relationship, and that makes the racist manifestations sometimes confused with classist manifestations, because basically the Afro population is the poorest population. So many people say, "No, no, we are not racist here, but we are, we are classists." But it is proven, it is very proven, that the racial variable, it is a problematic variable for everything that we know of the idea that the biological race does not exist, but it does work as a category for building identity and to inferiorize it too, that that variable plays an important role in certain moments. In the war itself, for example, in the confrontations in Latin America, in the processes of handling the land, of expropriation of the land, of taking people out of certain spaces, that is to say, there are people who hurt less to kill them than others. It is easier to kill certain types of people, and then some elements of class, race, power are crossed, that sometimes disimulate that idea of racism, but that yes, it is very present. Because among other things, Maria was talking about the intellectuals who build the Discourse of the Nation, because in the same Discourse of Construction of the Nation there are racist bases. That is to say, since one reads Caldas, since one reads later to Sampere, since one reads to José María Restrepo, there are some elements that they are talking about and that they are classifying people who are racializing the geography, who are saying that the people who are located in certain spaces do not have the capacity to access democracy, to the political faculties that demand this new liberal democratic system. That is also there, and that does not end overnight. It continues to permeate the societies of Latin America. [Music] Javier, and seeing what I love, how you describe it, how it affects this way of conceiving the nation, even the political current of Afro-Colombian communities like this, how they use the past to position themselves in the Discourse of being part of this Colombian nation today. Yes, of course. They always ask me, especially in May, May, which is the month of Afro-Colombianity, now it is called the month of African heritage, and the media always ask me the same question. What are the contributions of the black population to the Colombian nation? And I am always saying the same answer, do not ask me about the contributions. What you have to think is that the Colombian nation, as we understand it now, would be something else without the Afro-Colombian population. So do not talk to me about the contributions, that simply this nation would not understand without this population. So they are not contributions, they are part of the constitution of the nation, because without that presence, this would be something else. Without the experience of the African diaspora and of everything that that meant, and the whole cross that was later given, this would be something else. So what the Afro-Colombian communities do, is a little to cover that past, which can act in double style, because the recognition of the difference, can also be another form of inferiorization, and with that you have to be careful. That is to say, I recognize you as different, I give you a different treatment, I recognize your difference, but in the treatment of the difference there is an inequity, there is an inequality, because then what I do is sotize the other, treat it as a different being, a different being, but in that idea of difference there are some assumptions of inferiority of that other. So with that you also have to be careful, because the difference is claimed, it is very good to claim the difference, but you also have to be careful that in that difference they do not sotize, they do not put us in a rare place, that is there. I really like a Teyukol expression, who is a writer of Nigerian ascending, North American Nigerian ascending, photographer and writer, very good, who says that they are as good as the Vali masks, like Rembrandt's painting and Beethoven's music, that is to say, I am an Afro-descendant, African-American, but I am universal, I have universal elements, and I also can, and I always put this example, because the difference can generate essentialization and essentializing the subject is doting it on some capacities, but removing others, that means that the boy who was born in the Narinio neighborhood of Cartagena de Indias or in the Palenque de San Basilio can only play drums, that is, if he wants to be a ballet music dancer or wants to play the piano, he can not because his essence is to play drums, because that is what identifies him the most, because no, it is not about that, the equity consists in that this boy, if he plays a wonderful drum, but if he has the ability to do something else, that has the conditions to do it, that would be the equity. Very interesting what you say, not only about what the truth is about the equity, but what you mention about the advantage and the danger of the difference. Of course, of course, and the renunciation also to the condition of citizenship, in universal terms, which can also bring its burden of danger, because it is more easy to attack or get to certain points and solve certain particularities, but the integrity is also lost in those processes. Look, in terms of victims, even victims have to be indigenous or Afro, there are no peasants anymore, it is as if those categories that have a tradition of fighting also begin to disappear in these recognitions. So those are points to look at how things are complex, and the discussion is not so binary, there are a few nuances that are necessary to take into account. I totally agree. Javier, and I wanted to ask you a lot what we have done in the podcast, is to look at the questions, let's say these great questions about inequality, about racism and race, we have talked about many things in general, even it was one of the podcasts that we had before, and what we wanted to give to the culture, let's say the pandemic, and that would be my last question, and it is to ask you, in what way do you think that the pandemic increases or explains these types of complaints, or that it has become more visible in our questions about race and racism in Latin America, and if you think this would have happened if we weren't in this situation? Well, there is something, there is a complaint that I have not seen, that has been fixed, and it is that this happened not only in the pandemic, but in America, in Colombia specifically, the Anderson-Arboleda case occurred in May, on the 19th, two days before the key date, which is May 21, which is the commemoration of the definitive abolition of slavery. So there are sensitivities in the environment. The recension itself of the death of George Floyd is also related to that in this space in Colombia, let's say. Surely the recension would have been different if not all these sensitivities in the Afro-collective that are generated in May for the number of events, well, in this case, virtual events, around the Afro-Columbian issue and the African heritage. And, of course, the recension also of the pandemic. The pandemic has concentrated people, has people thinking more, maybe with more time to think about some things, and the pandemic, what it does is nudging, nudging structural flaws. And racism is a structural flaw. It's another kind of plague. And before the pandemic, what it does is sit down. Well, if the pandemic has put us in a place, it has nudged the inferiority, the different place in which we are in society. And if these things happen, of course, it shrinks with much more force, the movement, right? And, well, the pandemic, who is more killing, is the poor population. And in the United States, also the poorest population is still the Afro-descendant population. Now, I would have to say that this tradition of mobilization in the United States is not new, it is not only active with the pandemic. There you have to recognize that there is a tradition that comes from many years. And also something that is forgotten with relation to Latin America. And it is that until recently, in the 60s, the struggles were being made to annul the legal discrimination that existed in the United States. That is, until recently, they could not sit in certain places on a bus. Until recently, they could not enter in certain places, hotels, through the main door. Until recently, they could not enter to certain bathrooms, to certain public bathrooms, because they were not for those of their color. So that makes the memory very fresh, that is, it does nothing. We historians have that vice of talking, believing that what happened 100 years ago is nothing, or what happened 50 years ago is much less. But it is the only way that we have as a variable to explain the incidence of that past in the present. Of course, totally. And the experience is different, because in the civil movements of the 60s, it was precisely against what you notice a legal racial segregation. It was legally forbidden, let's say, to share with the public spaces, for example, in Latin America, there was no law, which does not mean that there was no practice, or that there was no space. What you say is very interesting, because, look, in the United States it was clear, and they said it, they do not admit people of color. I am sure, I have not checked it, but I am sure that the statutes, the regulation of the National Army in Colombia did not say but they did not accept it in practice. So, I think it is a good example to show those matices of racism, those matices of exclusion and discrimination, supremely complex. [Music] I love it, and I wanted to ask you a question, the last one is what are the challenges right now? We did not talk about this, but I am going to answer the question about mobilization, in other spaces, and I have a lot of doubts. In 2019, there was a lot of mobilization in the streets of Colombia, which we have not seen in many years. And I think the challenges are right now how to mobilize ourselves to fulfill their rights. How do you see it right now, especially for the topic we are talking about today? Well, I think that the pandemic has generated a lot of mobility in networks, a lot of mobilization in networks, a lot of manifestation, a lot more easy, to go out to the streets. And I think we have to take advantage of the lockdown for when this, this thing that you like to talk about now, of the new normality, well, in short, all these terms that are invented that sometimes do not trust them much, but I think they are thinking some things that can serve to a future, to a medium time to reevaluate, the subject of racism, of course, is key, the subject of education and the subject of health, which are fundamental pillars, well, of the social mobility, of the social sense, and of course, of the health, of the quality of life and of the health of people. I think those are fundamental issues, because, as the pandemic said, it denies all those structural flaws and the future is towards that, towards thinking about that. And all this discourse about the reinvention, well, I think that the reinvention is that, reinventing this device that has led us to the reaction to what we have, has been what we know it is doing. So the future would be would be in that process. Racism sometimes naturalizes and people do it unconsciously. I think what you have to naturalize is the discussion about its historical condition. That is to say, to me, it draws my attention that people, we always like to build civilian heroes, right? Well, Hegel is magnificent, Kahn is magnificent, they did wonderful things, but Hegel and Kahn said racist things and we have to say it, without dancing about Hegel's grave and Kahn's. But we have to say it, because it is the only way that we can naturalize racist practices against some sectors that, despite, because someone can say they are going, they are deriving colon status, something that has happened for a long time. Well, not what has happened for a long time, it continues to interpolate society now. And that is why we have to historize it and ask it and say it. Maybe not for me personally, maybe the solution is not to derive the status. For me. But they are not all historians. I am an undignified person what makes reactionary or what they consider is oppression. But in academic terms and in terms of the incidence of the academy in society, I think the academy has to discuss these things with the most naturality to be able to start a little in these times of reinvention to try to heal some wounds and historical debts that are there. Very beautiful that reflection in tenor. The idea is to naturalize to colonize also the discourse of having a serious reflection. You said that at least the pandemic made us think, everyone sat in a house to evaluate the moment we are living. Now as historians we will always be very happy to say that we have to add a little more to take advantage of these reflections but I think it is very valid. You mentioned before the Colombian experience that it is very interesting to see how the discourse in front of the race in the 19th century incorporated this in the concept of citizenship from a republican age in the first half of the 19th century what you said yesterday that I thought was very interesting this idea as if the evolution of the cleavage had been great numbers being that the experience in Colombia has been that it was liberation from one to one, they defending their emancipation, paying their own manumission. I think all those details are what I did I studied in Matisse, they allow us to conceive much more and I think to put in place historically what you said, not as if it was an addendum to the history of Colombia, but it is part of the history of Colombia of the process in which we are and what we are talking about. Exactly, they are not like foreigners, they are not Colombian citizens that have a past that made them move in certain conditions obligated and that reacted to that and that tried to become social subjects, historical subjects despite that condition of inequality in which they lived and that were, as the Peruvian historian says Carlos Aguirre they are agents of their own emancipation they are agents of their own emancipation they are agents of their own emancipation and I think that in political terms is as important as talking about oppression I am also interested to leave it there because you have to build references of dignity the children of the schools you have to build references of dignity and not only talking about the oppression that existed and you have to say it and you always have to say it and we will not get tired of saying it Well, the Holocaust keeps being and they keep making movies and writing books about that well, yes, you have to do that also with the African diaspora but you also have to talk about that capacity of becoming subject of struggle of dignity that is necessary for the subjects of the present for the children and girls of the present Okay, very good thank you very much I think I have one last question that I'm going to ask you what happens right now you recommended a writer I think that you would recommend us to read if we were your students and we were just starting to understand the dilemma of racism and the Latin American race Well, the classic book that is already a classic of Peter Waite about race about race in Latin America and I think the book this synthesis that George Andrews makes about Afro-Latin America is called the book I also think it's a very good summary to understand this of course there are a lot of things that are more specific more specialized especially about George Andrews that is called Afro-Latin America I think it's a good book to understand all this in terms of more Latin American and more broad specifically about a country Yes, and I like the reference to be able to differentiate the Latin American race it's very different from the North American you have to understand how it has been read from one side to another you don't necessarily have to read the North American book Yes, it's not the same and they have already learned the North American researchers because they made the mistake of finding the same thing that here it's not that easy He went to the In-Hel with Cuba He went to the In-Hel with the first book but when he made the books about Colombia he understood that the thing was different so he always talks about the failure of the failure because because they are looking for IT and they are not going to find IT but that does not mean that it is less important the destiny that follows is another thing the values ​​are another thing but there are some different processes that you have to understand in your in your that it costs a lot of times the North Americans to understand it to understand those those particularities that sometimes even costs the same interior of Colombia between the Pacific and the Caribbean Colombian sometimes there are some differences because they do not understand historically the processes Well Javier, thank you very much it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast I hope we can also invite you to the future you left us many tasks and I am very happy to invite that reflection to begin to read to understand a little our own dynamics so thank you very much for joining us today No, no Ana María thanks to you for the invitation and delighted for me and Bogotá they will always be a good reference I am not a discontented host I speak very well of Bogotá Well, hopefully we can have you here soon Well, I just have to say goodbye and thank you again to Javier and to the audience for listening to us and reminding you that the podcast class at home can be found on the different platforms both on Spotify, on Apple and on Google Podcast we will be with you in the next chapter thank you very much (bell rings)