E1178 - Forensic Psychologist Dr. Shannon Curry Breaks Down Lindsay Clancy Trial, MAFS

What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vafal's reality recap edition. I'm your host, Nick. At some point, I'll be joined by my wonderful life, Natalie Joy. She's wearing her baby. We're getting things settled, you know, like things are hectic, so we're running a little late. We got a full household. Welcome back Sierra. How are you? Hi, good. How are you? You know, I'm doing well, Ish. I'm doing great. It's all great. Yeah. I'm happy to hear it and happy to be back. Well, it's great to have you, Jimmy. Also, welcome back. Thanks for having me. I was happy to be here. Every time I talk to Jimmy, I want to be like, what you do this weekend? Like, was it fun? This weekend was fun. Where did you travel? Who did you meet? I was in, I was in Denver for the J Cole concert. Got to a go backstage after J Cole. What is what are some of the songs? Love yours. Uh, middle child. Play it. Play it on your phone. I know we can't error. I'm down. Playing your phone. I think he was pivotal in mine and Nally. Not J Cole's life for a lot of things. Like dreams. Come on. That's a banger. No, that's not who I'm first. Thanks for the piece. I'll go. No, we didn't. We definitely didn't hook up. We got to get that. Oh, he had me crying. Did he have a real like, uh, like a love song? Like a sexy song? Oh, yeah. Love yours. J Cole can turn you up. He can put you in your fields. He can make you get over, break up. J Cole is very versatile. I don't know. Okay. Well, I'll have to ask Nally if I'm thinking of the right artist. But anyway, welcome to the show. Mary Mary is also with us lots to get into. We have a very special guest. Very, very excited about Dr. Shannon Kerry, a clinical and forensic psychologist who has been covering this Lindsey Clancy case. And very excited to talk about her. We had a, I thought a really great conversation with her book or Angela and just kind of talked about postpartum and some of the struggles that the moms deal with and just the importance of awareness around postpartum. But I'm really excited to have Dr. Shannon with us because I think there's just a lot of just a lot of information floating around online about this case and a lot of misinformation. And I think she's going to bring a really objective point of view to this case. And if you guys are interested in objectivity when it comes to the case, I think you come to the right place. And really, I hope he learned a lot from Dr. Shannon. I'm really excited to have her out. And that is going to be coming up shortly. But before we get to Dr. Shannon, welcome, Natalie Joy. Oh, my God. Hey, girl. You came just in time. I already see her and Iris. Welcome. Iris, everyone. Your first feature at the J Cole concert, breast milk was offered to me. Period. Backstager. In the sweet, baby, is J Cole, who was part of our relationship early in in our looking up arrow? J Cole is who I was playing their album on the way to our date night. His album and you were like, can you change this? And I was like, Oh, okay. So that's who that was. And then he kept skipping the song. Well, it was just like J Cole essential. And he kept skipping the songs. And he was like, wait, time to place time and place. I understand on the way to date. Night might not be the right. I just it wasn't. Yeah. Who is that? Who's the artist that we, we cautious. Cautious clay. Cautious clay. That's Cautious clay. Who was driving? Was it you? Natalie? I was driving. You were driving. That was driving. But you were in control of the music. Nick, I don't know if you were technically allowed to take over OX in that moment. Nick is never in charge of music. That's true. That's true. I definitely, that's Natalie's go. But if he is driving, he is in control of the skip button. Yeah. Well, speaking of music, Taylor Swift, actually, this is what I wanted to talk about. She revealed some like coping mechanism mantras. She repeats to herself because obviously she's Taylor Swift and things can get pretty big when you're, you know, the biggest star in the entire world. So this is what she says to herself. Let's hear it. I'm excited to hear this. I've heard it. But it's awesome. You chose this. You chose this every day. You could have opted out of this any day before it got unmanageably big. And I decided not to because I love it that much. That's just where it begins and where it ends. Everything that comes with this ultimately is worth it as long as I get to still make music, she said. She says, she says that every day. That's a long, she says that's a long long story. I didn't know why she's Taylor Swift. That's a long story. As Mantra. Yeah. Outside of the, because it's music, you could apply this to a lot of very wonderful rewarding things that also come with a lot of difficulty in hardship. Parenting could be one of them. I think you do this. I'm telling you to myself. Well, I definitely don't say it as eloquently as Taylor Swift. But like, you know, so much in life, I don't know a single thing in my life that I really value and appreciate. That hasn't come with a lot of its, a lot of challenges. Like, you know, I don't, I don't find that they'd exist. Maybe other people feel differently. Next gen NYC cast. Yeah. I chose this every day. Wait, do you guys have, do you guys have mantras that you say to yourself? Like what do you say to yourself in the mirror to like hype you up? Mine's really similar. Actually, it's the same kind of like notion, but my mom always instilled this one in me. It's life ain't about waiting for the storm to pass. It's about learning to dance in the rain. There you go. That's really good. Storms always going to be there. Just make a party out of it. This is what we used to do when I grew up. I just look in the mirror and say lock it up. Lock it the fuck up. Lock the fucking you are that got a slap in there. Yeah. Look it up. You say lock it up. Not locked in. You got this. 3am in the morning, right now he's upstairs with River. I'm by myself. I got two twin babies that's feeding time. I walk into the bathroom, turn the lights, splash some cold water in my face. I'm just go like, let's fucking wear. Where are they when you're splashing water? Yeah. Yeah. I have questions. Mine is mine is nobody cares. But in a like a positive way. I guess not that deep. Yeah, it's not that deep. Like no one cares. You can live your life. River. She's unlocked a new cute era. So we often like, well, you know, we read our nighttime story. The old routine was read the story and they would be like, again, and I'd be like one more time. And then we'd read it one more time. And then she'd give a book of the big hug and a big kiss. We go to bed now. I read the first time or Natalie. And the second time River reads to us. And her version of reading is it's a lot. It's from page to page. It's like, and then you step out. Uh, and she's like, and then, um, and it's really cute. And she has a book called The Little Brood Shuck. Are you familiar with the little brood truck? I don't know how old it is. No, I've never heard of the little route truck, but I'd love to hear how it's rude. I can't really memorize it. But in Little Blue Truck went beep beep beep. I kind of read it like that. There's a bee. And there's a, and there's a line where the big duck truck got stuck. And because he wasn't nice, um, nobody heard or nobody cared is a line in the book. And the only line that River remembers from that whole book is, and nobody cared. And I'm like, period, like, I love it. The one thing that she took away from that book is like, no one gives a fuck. It's not about you. And the fact that my, potentially my daughter is learning that a two and a half years old, I feel like it's a win. That's right. Do you do know who it is about though right now? And what I, what I really, another thing I really want to tell you guys about new Beverly Hills housewife Tracy Tudor. I'm not familiar with this. I miss Tudor. All right. Well, here is what we know about. Is this official? Is this locked in? Is this a block? This is, it's pretty locked in as far as she posted. Okay. She posted about it and like made an official announcement. So, yeah. So basically, she's already got beef with the read. So we're already there. She's, she's from million dollar listing. So she's been on reality TV before, but million dollar listening on pause since 24. She, this is her statement she made on Instagram. Beverly Hills is home. I've raised my girls here, built my career here. And now apparently I've decided to let you all in even further into my life. Excited, very nervous, a little likely to get into some trouble. Absolutely. So what's left to say? But let's fucking go. That's a very neckline. But last year, she went on Jeff Lewis and claimed to read didn't pay her grand team's bills and also stocked her on social media. So Doree is denying this and is basically like clocking her and saying she's, you know, attention seeking or whatever. So she writes it very good. I love it. It's great. Yeah. Nervous little scared. For sure. For sure. Excited. That's fucking go. Bravo. So messy. Are you familiar with Miss Tudor, Sierra? I'm not because I didn't really watch million dollar listing, but I have seen the clip circulating of Doreet on Watch What Happens Live, saying like that this girl is just like out to get her essentially. So it's like, and the fact that this was years ago when this was brought up on a Watch What Happens Live episode that I'm like the idea that y'all brought her on this cast just to torment point here. She's also trying to crystal even better. Yeah. And also Doreet thinks everyone's out together. So welcome to the club. If crystal comes back and crystal gets like a little ally against Doree. Oh my god. And then also the stuff with Kyle is happening still. That's what I'm saying. For just television. Is this the show where like they have like the intros where it's like I'm so and so and I put the fun in function. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. My ex used to play like the compilation of their intros. She used to crack me up like the little sound bites. I love them. My favorite of all time is Mary M. Cosmese. If you come for me, I will send Jesus after you. Like what? We need to find out someday which one the producers come up with or which ones are the housewives because I bet it's about 50/50. I would love to know that. the authorship of each of them. - What's crazy is that we were talking about the rumored cast last, yesterday? When was that? I don't know, all the days of this. - The dancing with the stars cast? - No, the Beverly Hills rumored Housewives cast. - That makes sense. - And Candace Marina was one of them and she is a dear friend of ours and also a facialist. And so when I texted her and was like, oh my gosh, is this true? She was like, I have no idea how that, like I popped zits for a living. Like, I don't know how my name got in the mix. I don't know what's going on. They also used an AI photo of me. Like, I don't know why they did this. - It's just got my Instagram. - And one of the Housewives submitting her so they can bully her into free facials and then get in the fight with her because she's not being a good friend because she's not giving free facials. That's what I guess. - Oh yeah, that is a damn bottle of facial soda. - I'm also thinking it's like some blogger that put their fantasy cast together, knowing maybe that Tracy was one of them because Morgan Stewart also went on her and Instagram was like, I have no idea what happened yesterday, but I was never in the running. I've never had a chance to do this. - I should never do this. - Well, she goes, I've seen how excited you guys are. Maybe I should be a part of it, but like, yeah, no, she had no idea. - She was nothing to gain in everything to lose. - So I feel like that leaves Tracy Tudor in Rosanna, Pincino as like the two, right? 'Cause it was like, there's gonna be two and these are the four. So I feel like we narrowed it down pretty quickly. - I think Rosanna's legit. - I think the streets were saying that maybe she's, this is the first time we're gonna take her spot last season, maybe potentially. - I heard from a reliable source that it was down between those two and Amanda. I don't know if she won or she's the only one accepted or I don't know if there was an actual offer, but I don't think it's as made up as the Morgan Stewart rumor. - Yeah, I wonder, I mean, sometimes people like just don't get picked for, you know, don't get cast for like really weird and random reasons. - We also have, apparently there's some rumors about the Bravo looking in cities like Nashville and Is it Dallas? - Chicago. (laughing) - I don't know about Chicago. I think, well, one, I left in Chicago from the Midwest, I'm rooting for that. We know some people in Nashville. The streets are talking here. The streets are talking in Nashville. - What are they saying? What are the murmurs? - Well, we know some of the key players in Nashville, you know, the type of people they might, you know, people might reach out to you to say, do you wanna be on a reality TV show? - Can you spill anything? - Trying to connect the dots here. - No, I mean, I'm not gonna, no, no, I mean, I can't. No, I don't know if they're comfortable with that. - If I guess, can you blink twice? - I'll tell you when we get done. - Okay. - I don't think any of the names that, you know, like it's, I don't think it's hard to figure out who might be considered. In Nashville is rich in reality TV personalities. - So true. - Chicago, different, you know, like there's not, you know. - I have some people I have in mind. - For the better part of a decade, like Nashville was like the East Coast. Like if you weren't gonna move to New York, you moved to Nashville. - I think it's still like that, for like my generation, I feel like everybody's moving to Nashville. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of people are. Anyway, we're about to get to our guest, Dr. Shannon Curry, a clinical inferenzic psychologist to talk about the Lindsey Clancy case. And certainly there's a lot, everyone's talking about it. It is, there's so many layers to the discourse on this case. But there's also just a lot of misinformation and a lot of intense feelings around all the information that's out there. So we are bringing in Dr. Shannon to try, help guide us through this conversation with a little bit more, we wanna be as accurate as possible. So we're excited about having her on the show. When we come out of Dr. Shannon, I, we're gonna talk Meredith at first sight and we're also gonna talk a little double lives of suburban wives. And I'm excited to tell you about why I think the term self-sabotage is widely overused by both the dumper and the dumpy, and I'm over it. And we need to stop misusing the word. It's, yeah, it's lost its meaning and now it's being abused or misused. I can't wait to say that and then have half the internet lose their mind. Anyways, Dr. Curry, she's up next. - Dr. Curry, welcome to the show. - Thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. - Well, we're so grateful to have you. Our dear friend Emily Baker recommended you. I've seen you on the internet, really admire what you're doing. And then we asked Emily to come on. She's like, "I'm not really covering this case and she had a reasons why." But she reminded me of you and we reached out and you were very gracious to come here. And I'm so excited to have you because, you know, not only do I have so many questions about the Lindsey Clancy case, but obviously as new parents, you know, I mean, you might have to bill us with some of the questions. - I can be weird with new parents. I once approached a woman who was carrying a baby in the parking lot and just asked, "How are you doing?" And, you know, part of me was thinking like this is crazy. This is weird. She's gonna tell me to f off and she was, she just started crying. And she was like, "It's hard." And I said, "Look, I know I get it. This is the hardest thing you're ever gonna go through and everybody's just blowing smoke up your ass and trying to convince you that this is all just fairy tales and rainbows and it doesn't mean you didn't want your baby. It doesn't mean you don't love your baby. It just means this is legitimately one of the most difficult times of your life the first year. After you've had a child, it's gonna be the hardest time of your marriage. The research shows that marriages are never worse than that first year. And then they gradually, you guys are gonna gradually get a little bit happier with each other again. It's gonna take about 18 years though for you to go back to normal. So just, I like to normalize this stuff so that you don't feel like you're alone in it and you don't feel like there's anything wrong. - That's great to know 'cause I feel like, yeah, overall, you know. - Good, good. - We definitely do fight more in the first year of our children's lives, though, that is true. - Thank you. - Thank you for the validation. - And then they're doing feeding, you know, it's, you know. - You're exhausted. And look, for people who don't have a lot of support, I just can't even imagine you're asleep deprived. You have this entire role transformation. You don't have the normal social support that you would have had before. The whole baby thing really was meant to happen when we lived in little village tribes and had people constantly available to hold the baby. And so it's just, it's really tough. But let's start with the case itself, 'cause I think that's what, the discourse has really taken on its life of its own. You know, I think this case, you know, started obviously in the true crimes genre. But now it's become a mainstream conversation. A lot of it has to do with the conversations that are being brought up around postpartum. But as far as the case itself, I feel like there's, you know, a lot of, as I always is the case with these, the internet is like a lot of misinformation and a lot of fan theories around true crime. And so I want to try to as much as possible deal with what, what are the actual facts? anecdotally, I was, you know, I just, over the weekend, I mentioned this story on our show yesterday. But I asked a friend, I'm like, oh, you found it, like, oh my God, of course. And then immediately they're like, oh, he did it. I was like, oh, okay. Now at this point, I became more and more aware. Nally has been following a lot of the information I received from Nally. I was aware that there was a little bit of discourse around like theories around him. They were convinced that he did it and they had been watching the case. And, and then gave me a bunch of lists. It was like the body temperature A2 degrees, his, his reaction to the 911 call and things like that. And again, as someone who watched the case, I was like, I wasn't really pushing back. I was, because I was like, hey, I didn't. And they're like, you need to watch the case. And this person was like selling their opinion as like, as if they came up with it on their own in an individual informed opinion. And then, and then I go online, I'm looking. And this person was just parroting like the talking points of everyone who things he did it. And it, you know, and it's all the same talking points, right? And then I'm looking online. And I'm seeing other people being like, you know, people who actually listen to 911 call. Telling a very different story. And I'm just curious, how are you seeing discourse online? And what are the facts of the case? But I'm also just kind of interested in, how do we get to a place where so many people are convinced. You know what I'm saying? Like, I wasn't about to argue with my friend because this is a very smart person who I respect their opinion and they were convinced he did it. And I, I, I was just a misinformed person who hadn't taken the time that they had taken to learn about the case. And how did we, how did we get here? Okay. So there's about a thousand questions in that question. But no, they're amazing questions. I mean, this is the stuff I literally think about at night and don't fall asleep. So there is a general, when you see an increasing conspiracy theories in general, kind of a collective and conspiracy theory tendency, usually there's a lot of public mistrust and institutions. I'm a psychologist. I'm not interested here in going into where I think that mistrust is driving from currently. I think there are excellent arguments for educational system. I think there are very strong arguments in the psychological field or social media being a primary source of information these days. And entire generations who are now growing up from birth to adulthood with social media as their primary source of daily information and interaction. That's their town square. So there is a different, I think, norm around where you get your information, who you listen to, the, the loud voices that anybody can be a loud voice on social media. I've seen it myself. I've seen people in forensic psychology and, you know, it's just, it's wild out there. There's no real checks and balances on that platform or on any social media platform. So there's that. And then you have. cultural components with mistrust and systems. You can have political influences. So that's one entire issue where you could bring a specialist on that. What are the facts of the case? Separate and incredible question. So as a forensic psychologist, I have to know a little bit about the law. I have to have a general knowledge and understanding of the law because my work involves answering what we call to a term of art within the field. The psycho legal question. And that is one part or several parts of a statute, an illegal statute where the psychology actually intersects. And we can provide information to the fact finder, which means the judge or the jury, to assist them in helping them make the ultimate decision and that they have to make about that statute. It is not our job to assert their role and make that decision for them. We are just providing the psychological information that's relevant to that statute. So it's important to know what the statute is because unlike a normal clinical evaluation, we're not just bringing everything in. We understand that when we're conducting an evaluation for the court, these are people's rights on the line. And we're not going to introduce prejudicial information or incriminating information unless it is specifically necessary for that statute or in that jurisdiction. So everything that comes in should be very tailored to the jurisdiction, to the legislation to the statute. This is not a case of who done it. This is not a case where we're looking at evidence to see who the guilty party is. This is a case of criminal responsibility. So it means that the insanity defense has been raised or an insanity plea has been made where somebody is conceding that they committed the acts, but that they lack the mens ray of the guilty mind or they lack in Massachusetts, their two prongs, two components that would make them guilty of a crime. So you can only be charged with a crime if you have the guilty mind, you're a criminal. If you were not in your right mind or you were unable to control your behavior and the actual wording of not in your right mind means in Massachusetts, you were not able to appreciate the wrongfulness of your actions. And then you get a second prong. You also get the jury can find either or or you were not able to control your behavior because of a mental defect or a mental disorder, then you are deemed not criminally responsible. Now, that doesn't mean you go out into the world. And in some cases, frankly, which is worse, going to prison or for the rest of your life or going to a mental institution for the rest of your life, the idea is that if you are found not guilty by reason of insanity or in Massachusetts, sorry, I wouldn't be accurate, not criminally responsible by reason of mental disease or defect, you don't just get released. The judge is likely going to remand you to a state mental hospital. And then the goal is treatment. So now it's not about punishment. You're not hospitalized for as long as you would have been incarcerated. It's a separate thing because again, you're not guilty of that crime. You've been acquitted, but the goal is public safety and treatment of this illness. So even if you are no longer showing any symptoms and you have all your treating providers on a panel, they do regular reviews of whether somebody is eligible for what we call conditional release. Even if everybody on that treatment team is saying she has been a model patient, she has been leading her mall classes. She helps with this. She worked in the recreational garden. She, et cetera, et cetera. She's gotten another master's degree. She has shown no symptoms. She's been compliant with medication. Even so, the court would have to find her to not be a threat to society of any reasonable risk of danger. And now I've seen cases working in this. I used to work in mental hospitals. So on that end, I've done those evaluations within the hospital or testified about somebody I'm treating and still had the court to say, nope, we don't like it. And this is a real issue. There have been a lot of case precedence behind this. This is a really interesting actual area of law and civil rights. So that's the fact of the case. There's that. I think one thing that scares me about conspiracy theories around a case like this, and I saw an attorney say this beautifully, was like, I'm just worried when I'm arguing a side of a case, whether or not people are following me, and whether they think I'm being convincing, whether the evidence I'm preventing them is convincing them more than, in his case, he was saying, then the defense attorney was a prosecutor. And he was like, the last thing I am imagining happening is that you guys are thinking of some third scenario that neither of us are bringing, that has no basis in even this trial or legal phase. He's like, that scares me. You guys scare me. I'm going to scare you to death right now. So I, one of my specialty areas of evaluation, it's evaluation to criminal responsibility like this case. And then another specialty area of mine is evaluations of capital sentencing, capital sentencing evaluations. I'm usually brought in at the mitigation phase. What's important about this is the mitigation phase comes after somebody has been found guilty for the offense. So guilt is no longer an issue. I go in assuming and using the appropriate language that this person did it. You guys have all found him guilty. I've got a jury of 12 there. And then the mitigation phase is kind of a beautiful constitutional Supreme Court precedent phase. It's really death is different. So in capital cases, everything gets to come in to convince even just one jury that this person has less moral culpability than to deserve the harshest penalty that any nation can hand down. So he's, or she is never getting out. They are going to be imprisoned for the rest of their life. They are no threat to society in prison. These are all facts. The only thing is, are you going to sentence him to death or not? Are you going to put him in prison the rest of his life or are you going to sentence him to death? And what I find incredibly terrifying, and I think this parallels what's happening here with this case, is that in surveys of jurors who have already sentenced somebody to death after that mitigation phase, large portions of them never realized that it was a totally separate phase, that he wouldn't just be released. They did not appreciate the difference in the legal phase. And that's a fundamental disconnect from, I think, what's happening in the courtroom. And a fundamental lack of understanding about the law. And the attorneys can try to explain those things to them. But if that's already happening, right, before-- and I'm talking about trials that are not being televised, I'm talking about a sequester jury, people who are living in that courtroom with us for months, sometimes, in these capital cases. And then you think about a case like this, and you've got all the social media and the conspiracy theories going on too. And it is completely contradicting the law and what's already been conceded. I mean, that just scares me to death. Cognitive bias is so powerful. People will not-- they cannot physically see. There's been studies on what people will physically see if they believe something different. And they will not physically see, for example, a gorilla beating its chest on camera if they thought that there was no gorilla in that. I mean, it's really wild. Cognitive bias shapes what we see, what we hear, what we perceive. And those beliefs are so fixed and so strong that I have a lot of fear right now about our justice system if these sort of conspiracy theories in this hubris, this lack of humility, lack of appreciation for the knowledge and specialization and skill that people who've dedicated decades of their lives studying and specializing in can bring and offer. There's just not an interest in learning. It seems like that said-- that said, here's the positive, I feel-- I have clients who I adore and friends to, who have said to me, he did it. It's the first thing they'll say. Now, the beauty of being me is that they know I'm a forensic psychologist, so I can just be like, no, he didn't, and then explain why. And these are people I love. I have a relationship with them and I can come with receipts. But it's still exhausting. And I have a doctorate and postdoctoral training in this. And I'm still exhausted and though I might bring something up or the body temperature, I'm like, shoot, that's out of my scope, I better check it up. And then I look it up and I'm like, oh, this is nonsense. This is-- you're completely conflating something or misunderstanding something. But I still, they've got these-- I mean, they are studying misinformation. No, it's really a fact. And it's terrifying. I'm curious, like, thinking about the challenges where the legal system obviously, which there are many, but speaking about what you're talking about misinformation, do you feel like the way that these court cases and the true kinds of space, like, again, have commercialized court cases, right? And it almost seems like with the way that we've become so therapy-speak, and we're therapy's great, huge part of our personal development, our relationship, it's great. But like, again, people have taken these terms and kind of anointed themselves experts. And we all do it, right, to a certain extent. Are people able to weaponize these ideas and come up with defenses for their bad behavior in a way that will be very sellable to the public? And in the public-- Oh, yeah. seems like the public is becoming the actual jurors in a way that like who's going to be accountable for anything in the future because it seems like there's always a way to explain nowadays bad behavior by like taking advantage to your point of these important terms. But should be diagnosed by experts and yet, you know, as a society, we're just, we're all, you know, I had, I had a woman, I don't think we really see episode and as an ethnic episode and she was just asking me my opinion about something. She's like, I'm autistic and I'm like, really? She's like, yeah, my mom told me yesterday, you know, it's like if you've been diagnosed, you know, it's it, but like she took it, it was just like, Oh, okay. You know, someone on, and it was like, whoa, you know, and her willingness to believe someone in her community who just diagnosed her, it was like, I just don't feel like we would have done that five years ago. And here we are. It's happening really quickly, isn't it? Yeah. So the, I think, I think Nick, you and I are on the same age. So we're like equally jaded right now. But yeah, I do feel like I have noticed a rapid shift, even just in the last few years in people becoming armchair experts in certain and there is so much information out there. And in some ways, it's fantastic because people are learning, when they are getting information from experts, that's so encouraging. One thing though that I tell a lot of my clients is I have a really hard time posting because I'm very busy. And so I think there's a reality where those of us who are actually very, very busy working and having those roles in the field, it is, I mean, my stuff is so low quality. I'm always forgetting to put a mic on. Sometimes I just put a zoom recording on and throw it up there. There. I mean, it's bad. But that's the best I can do. I still have so many more followers than other experts in my field. And so on the one hand, I, I feel this obligation to kind of go out there and like bang on the drum of truth. But on the other hand, we're really busy. And so one thing I'll say to my patients is, yes, I know this doctor looks really awesome online. But I know so many excellent physicians with this specialty that I can refer you to who aren't online because they are way too busy to do this. And also they can barely write a hand chart, you know, like they're not putting together their little curated videos. And they're not paying attention to like the algorithm or their, or their hook in their first three seconds or how much you can monetize a viral video. Yes. And ways that the, you know, we've lost that objectivity. As far as the case itself, I want to ask you some specific questions that I've seen online. But again, I haven't verified. I don't know how accurate they were, but one of the, it seems like one of the doctors, I think it was recently in the past two days, he was talking about when he evaluated Lindsey that, um, and get correct me if I'm getting anything wrong here. Um, but when he evaluated her, he thought it was, as he described very unique, uh, and a little suspect, a suspect that the voices, you know, that she had heard, she had only heard when she committed the act in those 18 minutes that took her commit the act and by her own admission has not heard those voices since. I even said this to my wife, Natalie, who's like, well, that's not true because also I feel like people are confusing her, acknowledging to her husband, Hey, I've had some dark thoughts about harming myself or harming my kids versus I've heard actual voices telling me to harm my child. And this psychologist says that I, when I hear someone saying that the voices who told me to commit the act are only isolated to the act itself, I find that to be suspicious. Am I, am I accurately giving you this information? What am I missing? That was actually a great synopsis. Oh, thank you. Uh, but how can we, how can we understand what he is saying in layman's terms? What I can say is that, yes, generally, you've described two separate symptoms, command hallucinations, hallucinations. Let me define that first. Are any sort of sensory experience that you are perceiving as real as day, that is not real. So that could be most commonly hearing voices. Um, it could be seeing things that aren't there, seeing people that aren't there, phantoms, demons that aren't there. Uh, you feeling as though something is crawling on your skin, that bugs are inside of your skin. Um, but again, it's the sensation, the delusion would be the certainty that there are bugs inside of your skin or that some bit things been implanted in you. So the hallucination is a sensory sensation. And then we have in a psychotic episode, you can have just a hallucination, you can have just delusions, you can have both, let me define delusions to delusions are a strong fixed belief that is not real. And it is not changeable. No matter what contradictory evidence you present to the person, they cannot be convinced that what they believe is not true, no matter how irrational it is. Now you may have bizarre delusions like aliens implanted something in my brain, and I'm getting messages from them, or you may have non bizarre delusions such as I can, I invented a microchip, let's say you're in tech and the governments after my idea, and that would be more of a paranoid theme. Depending on the content of your hallucinations and of your delusional beliefs, that can really shape your behavior as you were experiencing them. Now post-partum psychosis, if somebody is experiencing post-partum psychosis, this is different than the psychotic behavior you might see with somebody who has schizophrenia and is experiencing an active psychotic state with lured psychosis. There's a lot of big words that means that maybe if you've seen a homeless person shouting out loud and you feel a little bit scared, it's very clear that they're not connected to reality. That would be a state of lured psychosis, and what they're doing when they're shouting is they're responding to what we call internal stimuli, which is usually either they're seeing something that isn't there, or hearing voices that aren't there and they're reacting to it. Now with post-partum psychosis, there are periods of total lucidity during the day, even if somebody has an underlying delusional belief, the whole time, let's say somebody has a delusional belief that there is some impending doom coming for them and their children, they can still outside of that delusional belief have completely normal reasoning. So they can still want to call CVS, check on a prescription, text the husband and say something, they're relieved that the kid's test was normal, and then also there could be different times of day where the symptoms kind of kick in, and they're more in a state of delirium, which is something that's kind of a textbook part of that post-partum psychosis, real delirious kind of fatigued out of its state, and they may get more paranoid and more intense in their delusional thinking, it might become more ruminative, and they can experience hallucinations, especially if it's a paranoid type theme, a command hallucination that has to do with that paranoid. Now is your only chance, you must do it, what he'll learn speaking to is the unusualness of somebody experiencing a command hallucination for just this one finite vocal period of time, and then never again, never before and never again, and what Nick I hear you also talking about is differentiating that very clear as day auditory hallucination, the command hallucination, you must do this now to your last chance, versus intrusive thoughts, where you can have really powerful intrusive thoughts, sometimes I have intrusive thoughts, especially if I've been working on a report for a while, I'll hear myself say like serendipitously in my head, like while I'm brushing my teeth, that's just weirdness, brainworms, you're tired, you're overwork, but also let's say you are dealing with anxiety after having a baby, intrusive thoughts, negative thoughts are really common for everybody postpartum, not just people who even have the baby blues, even though that's super common as well, everybody postpartum, including dads, we'll get intrusive thoughts, that's different, that's different, and your intrusive thoughts can be like, what if I kill the baby right now, should I kill the baby, I want to kill the baby, no, I don't, and the reality is, do you actually want to, is it a distressing, ego-distonic thought, right? So you can even think the words like, I want to kill the baby, and if it is ego-distonic, like it brings you horror and disgust, you don't want to kill the baby, relax, your brain's just ruining everything wonderful for you in that moment, but we all do this to an extent, right? Our brains are weird, and we do think of awful things sometimes, and then think we're a pervert, or, no, our brains just do stuff, so that's something different. A lot of people playing this clip are suggesting his testimony, is suggesting some premeditation on her part, which is that, oh, if she only experienced this in the 18 minutes, kind of sounds like bullshit, and maybe she came up with it, is that accurate, or is that, is that what he's trying to say, what is he trying, what is his testimony trying to say, and how should people be interpreting it? Psychology is not always aligned with the law. The law wants a bright line of premeditation means she couldn't appreciate, or if she could appreciate this, there's a bright line, she either could appreciate it or she couldn't, she could control her behavior or she couldn't. We don't measure things in black and white like that in psychology. We are constantly recognizing a myriad of influences on behavior in every single moment, of thoughts, of external environmental cues, of command hallucinations or not, like our mood, How we're feeling in that moment, whether the kid just had a tan whether we're sleep deprived, whether we have a preexisting diagnosis or undiagnosis, but preexisting bipolar disorder, whatever there is a lot going on there. And then to say that somebody who is like, holy able to appreciate their behavior or not, that's a legal concept. So, I mean, there are some times where you can go there. You can be like, this person didn't even know his name. This person, you know, this person couldn't even say a coherent sentence, and we have it on camera for three days and at the moment of the arrest. That's sometimes you can get closer to that right line, but most of the time in forensic work, you can't. And your job is to educate and let that fact finder make the tough call. As I'm sure you know, his testimony was interrupted and right now they're on break. So, who knows what will get continued with his testimony, but is it possible for someone to be experiencing a postpartum psychosis and still know right from wrong? Yeah. Yeah. And it just depends. I feel like a lot of people hear that word psychosis and immediately go completely absolve from any and all activity. Right. And this is what, you know, psychologists might personally feel like, yeah, they're not themselves. And right, if they're well, can we apply the standard to them? Would they, would she have done this if she was well, right? Or if she was even even if, even if I just want to throw it in a, let's say she didn't have postpartum psychosis. Okay. I'm not saying either way, but even if it was psychologists, if she were so suicidal that a woman who had loved her children and lived for them and then thought this was a reason to allow, even if she were sleep deprived and made this call as somebody truly thinking with all of their wits about them, is that the decision she would have made if she had been rested and well? Who knows? Now, the law again looks at things with a bright line, but even if she has psychosis or anybody has postpartum psychosis, their reasoning is only impaired as it gets restricted to that delusion or it's constrained to that delusion and and then also if they have postpartum psychosis and they're delirious and generally kind of paranoid and sleep deprived, of course, that's going to affect their reasoning, but the main deficit in their reasoning is going to be because the direct influence of the delusions and the hallucinations, so any voice is if they were there. I have a question from our booker that we had on who had discussed this. When you're in that kind of state, like how fast does the delusion like on average usually kick in? Like is it as quick like thing that it's abrupt. So this is one of the things that really differentiates postpartum psychosis from a major depressive disorder with peripartum onset, which is actually the diagnosis that we typically call postpartum depression. Okay, so postpartum depression gradual onset usually starts anytime during pregnancy, although the DSM says it ends in four weeks, it can go on clinically, we generally understand that it can go on for up to a year about and that's what the research supports as well. Postpartum psychosis is different. It comes on extremely abruptly, usually about two to three days postpartum and you're in it. Now again, there can be periods of lucidity, but that delusion is full tilt. But it's not gradual. It just hits. That's terrifying for people around that person. And there may be concealment. So if you are paranoid and let's say that you have this paranoia that you can't trust anybody that you have this special mission that you have to carry it out, you know that the mission is against the law. And so people try to stop you, but you know, it's the only thing that could save you and your children. And again, I am not saying that that's what happened in this case. I am just giving a scenario. Okay, you might choose to conceal your beliefs because you you can even reason that people will try to stop you, but you know in your heart of hearts because the delusions delusions are so powerful that you have to carry out this mission or your children will be damned or whatever whatever the horrible fear is. It's it's a terrifying place to be. That's a possibility. Oh, and so so much there. I want to shift to intrusive thoughts because yeah, yesterday we had Angela and we were talking about intrusive thoughts. And I honestly was getting a little confused and maybe it's a large umbrella and they all are inclusive, but I wonder if also there's a difference. And so when Angela and my wife and what I'm also seeing a lot of women talking about intrusive thoughts online, they're describing what I'm understanding is which also to your point, I've as a father of had when you're like you're holding your baby or you're playing with your kid. And like this I this horrible I like something bad could happen like something could fall a branch could fall on my kid. And I have this like vision of like something falling and killing my child. And it's yeah, like why that's yeah, and a lot of the intrusive thoughts I've been hearing described by my wife or Angela is in that vein where it's like thinking that something bad could happen and you're a constant in this state of anxiety about like oh my god, I don't know, you know, it's crippling. It can be crippling because you're just so afraid of something bad happening to this child. And then there also seems to be and I feel like that's also being connected to the intrusive thoughts. And maybe again, it's one large umbrella of I want to harm my child or that, you know, your baby's crying, you know, and boy, you know, it's just like it's you know, I've never gone that far but you're just like it's like a it's like a it's like a drill bit to your head. These are important things to say out loud because they are really common. And some of when we pretend that that is not happening and that people are not driven to that level of exhaustion, that's when we run a risk because that's even more isolating, right? So I hear you correct me if I'm wrong. So the question I'm hearing is, is there a difference between the actual negative thoughts and the intrusive worry thoughts? Are those one and the same? I don't think so. What you've described is is a normative reaction to frustration, sleep deprivation, not having a life, listening to a high pitch screaming cry, that is actually physiologically activating because the baby needs help and your entire nervous system is in fight or flight mode trying to save the baby's life, but you are spent, okay? Those are normal normal thoughts that's why it's so important that we have support when we are bringing children in this world because it's hard and it's going to push you to the brink, okay? That's a normal thought to have. Also, good thing about saying it out loud is that that's really the antidote. We need to say this stuff out loud. It gives it less power. The other thing are true into intrusive thoughts. The intrusive thoughts are more of like the gross worry thoughts that are so you're like, why did I even just think that? I don't want to imagine this in my head. And sometimes those can even get weirder, but again, the key is is it ego-destonic? Is it something that gives me no pleasure, whatsoever to think about? That's ego-destonic. It just does not fit what you actually want. And then now, actually, the differentiation becomes what's a normal, weird mom or dad thought from a new baby. Like, you guys remember in Sex in the City? Who's at my age? Where Miranda's just dying. I think she's going to go to the Jersey Shore or something with Carrie. And Steve comes over to get Brady or to babysit Brady and he's like, I don't know. I can't do this. I can't do this. And she's like, Steve, we're all afraid we're going to kill the baby. That's what I think of when I think of the normative experience parents have. Now, if it is getting to the point where it is significantly impairing your functioning and those thoughts are actually taking time up during the day and if you're starting to have to carry out rituals that do nothing but give you a sense of some sort of superstitious sense of if I do this, then that won't happen. Then we might be getting into some obsessive compulsive disorder territory where instead of it being about like compulsive hand washing or stuff, we're starting to do some other compulsions that are tied to trying to reduce the intrusive anxiety caused by these thoughts. And there is, I mean, if you're experiencing OCD, you kind of can't mistake it for just a little intrusive thought you have now and again. It is incessant and it is exhausting. I've had clients who are up all night wanting to go to bed exhausted, but they have to keep doing the ritual because they didn't get it quite right on this side or whatever it might be. So I don't want to instill fear in all of America and get them thinking they all have OCD. I want to qualify that this is something, if it is intruding on your daily functioning, if it is taking up a significant amount of time and it is causing you serious distress, not just temporary disturbance because you had an ego-destonic thought, then we might need to make a call to your mental health provider. Question for myself who is currently postpartum. I had a pretty rough for me first couple weeks. Normal. And now I feel like I'm pretty good. Is it could, could it come back in? So about 50 to 80 percent of new mothers will actually experience baby blues. This is considered a normative, a normative experience to the precipitous drop in hormones that happens about 40 eight hours post delivery. That's usually like right when it starts to peak. And then it usually ends in about two weeks. Do you feel like that was around the time it resolved for you? Okay. And during that time, here's what kind of characterizes it. Tearfulness, feelings of overwhelm, but you're also still able to enjoy moments with the baby, right? So it's not constant loss of interest. You're not feeling like you're not connecting the baby at all. It's just that at times you're totally overwhelmed, tearful, not feeling like yourself, having a lot of mom, guilt, or stress. And then it just kind of tapers off and gets better around that two week mark. And then the good news is if if you're in that sort of criteria window, you shouldn't have any expectation of it coming back. Question for the partners and what best practices to support your partner postpartum. Thankfully, overall, you know, despite some baby blues, you know, we're really grateful that we haven't had experienced some of this stuff. Obviously, Nally grateful as her partner grateful. But I'll never forget the first day we came home with River. And there was, there was some crying. And her doctor pulled me aside, her mom pulled me aside, we're like, you know, just heads up, you know, this could happen. And it happened. And again, overall, totally fine got through it. But even that little moment was scary. You know, it's kind of like you, for a moment, your partner, you're just like, I don't know. I don't think anything I say or do is going to have an effect. And I don't know what, and I feel like it's all going to be wrong. And then obviously for the partners who, you know, the women who are experiencing postpartum depression and real intrusive thoughts. I'm just, you know, because there's so much discourse around Patrick about like a lot of people having opinions at how he's supposed to move and what he should have done and what is normalized. And I also can imagine living with someone who's experiencing this is crazy. It sounds like you can almost like, because you're describing highs and lows, good days and bad days. How can you discern the difference between like, are you supposed to not trust your partner to the mom? You know, like, there's a little moment where you know, she seems a little disconnected because she said, are you supposed to not trust your partner and the mother, your children around your baby? Like, how do you balance that out? And it seems like it would be very scary and very confusing. And I guess what are some best practices for supportive partners? I mean, Dick, you're going to have to rain me in here because you just triggered like three different answers I want to give. So you're going to be going like 20 minutes. Okay. I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to indulge myself, give myself my favorite answer. My first, okay, let me just get into it. So you were saying, how do we know whether or not to leave your wife with the kids because she seems normal, right? And you brought in Patrick. Let me just start there. So hindsight bias is alive and well in this case in some of the collective blame I've seen toward the family in general. It would have been completely irrational for anybody to anticipate that Lindsey Clancy was going to kill her children. One in a thousand mothers has postpartum psychosis. And out of that one in a thousand, it's about a 4% rate of only those, of only those who don't seek treatment. And I'm sorry, that I don't have that percentage right now, who would ever harm their children. Okay. So math is not my strong suit unless I've got charts in front of me. So if anybody here is able to do that calculation of what 4% of some smaller percentage of the one out of a thousand is, that's the likelihood. You would be a pretty paranoid person, not a good parent paranoid. I mean, a really paranoid kind of a jerk to imagine that your partner who you have known and loved and who loves her children and is a labor and delivering nurse and loves kids is going to off the kids. I think that could have been seen, you know, if we rewind history, unless imagine this never happened and you hear of some husband who brought CPS in and made sure like she couldn't come close, you think also she wasn't going to let herself be around her kids and she's screaming and distressed and the kids are screaming and crying like, would that have been a reasonable step for him to take? No, I think by all accounts, we had a person who was lucid a lot of the time and a loving parent and they were all in very close communication with the family, the extended family. And there were decisions that were continually made and reassessed about what's best, what's that kind of support do you need right now? Do we all think it's best off support was offered then discussed and declined. It's the hindsight bias where the unthinkable, the unthinkable has happened. And suddenly it's like, I'm never going in the ocean again because there are sharks, right? This is just to it's so rare. Now, what can husbands do to support their wives? Number one, do not assume that the blues, one of my biggest fears is that this case is being viewed in such extremes, these black and white, right? So either you were wrong to every letter around the kids or she wasn't supported enough. Here's what I think is important. If somebody is showing signs of postpartum psychosis, that's an emergency. It's not a get her away from the kids, it's a get her help immediately. My partner needs help. And that is defined by being out of touch with reality. Obviously, as I said earlier, there can be some concealment of the delusions. But if somebody is telling you that they're hearing voices or that they're even having intrusive thoughts that are getting to that point of more than just mom worry. And if she's not herself, and again, it has not subsided at all. She needs help. She needs help. And then that's a whole nother. That's the system and the help is a whole nother thing. I don't even know if I can address it. It's just too depressing. Now, husbands, the number one issue I see with new parents is that the husbands do not realize how important they are and how necessary they are for the baby. We have ages of this idea that the mother knows best and that there's this maternal magic. And there is maternal magic. But also fathers are so important. And babies respond so incredibly to their father's voice and face. And it's really cool when you see the research on this. If I've, you know, since undergrad, I've been watching these videos and my courses with the dad looking at the baby and the baby cooling. And if you wait 20 seconds, that's about how long it takes the baby to register the information and mimic the dad's face. So it's just a beautiful thing. Most dads feel out of place. When River was born. Yeah. They brought River over to they check her heartbeat, you know, and all the other things they do. I quickly went over and like grabbed her finger and like kind of was talking her and she went from crying to immediate calm. It was like a really cool moment. I don't know if it was a coincidence or but it felt no, it felt like I'm so glad you had that. Yeah. I'm so glad you had that. And it was so early, right? Do you feel like that changed your approach with River through the rest of raising this little infant? I want to say it changed. I mean, like I had a great role model in my father. I have 10 brothers and sisters. So, you know, I was raised. They've been raising babies. Yeah. I was raised around kids. And I was raised by parents who like, you know, they had no choice but to be a team. And so I had a great role model in my father. And so like being a father is something I've always really enjoyed. And but that it didn't hurt. You know, it like it was a, you know, it made you appreciate those moments because yeah, like parenting is so hard and stressful and like it changes your life. And, you know, it's just like grow, you know, going to the grocery store is vacation for, you know, yeah. I'll be like, I have to go to the grocery store, but I'll go, you know, I'll go fill up the go. Can I go? Can I go fill up the car with gas? Like that's, that's a break, you know? But in between the challenges, like, you know, there are those moments you share with your child. And especially as a father now that we have twins, the connecting that I'm having with River has been amplified, you know, and it's just, it's awesome, right? And then yeah, she really connects with you, you know, it's been awesome. So it's, it's finding those wins in between the, in the challenges. But yeah, I think what really helped there is like, you know, like when Natalie found out she was pregnant, I could see an immediate connection between her and her baby, where I was like the best, the best analogy I have is when I was announced as the bachelor. And like this is, this is a crazy moment. And everyone's like, for a moment, everyone's like, oh my god, congrats. And then you don't start filming for two months. And then like bizarrely, you're just, you're, you know, nothing's really changed. But like, you know, they're going to do this thing. And it's going to, it's going to change your life. But like right now, it's like whatever. And they're also coming online for like the first couple of weeks. My friend just had a baby. It's the closest thing I've ever, like I am in this. And I've been there the whole pregnancy was really excited. But then I came to the house as soon as she arrives and I was like, oh, so we just, she's just going to sleep. You know, it was so anticlimactic. But then they really come online. And it's really special. And even though it sounds like Natalie, you had the immediate bonding moment. If that's true, I want to also normalize to anybody listening that it's okay if you don't instantly feel that these are okay things for us to talk about. It comes. It usually comes. Now, if you have that prolonged sense of detachment and not being able to bond, there might be, you know, depressive episode with peripartum on separate thing. But there are so many normative experiences that just aren't what we expect. And I think that's why we need to broaden what we expect. So we don't unnecessarily beat ourselves up. And realize that dads, you guys have such an important role in raising that kiddo. Talk about what little things you can be doing like right off the bat in terms of warming the bottle, feeding with the bottle, doing this nap time. you can feel effective at it. The typical scenario that happens is dad thinks, okay, I gotta be hands off, I can't handle this. I'm gonna go make all the money so that we are stable for this family. Mom feels resentful to be left alone with the baby and exhausted. But then dad comes home, mom's resentful and he feels even more hands off because he just doesn't wanna f anything up. And it becomes this vicious cycle. So then he just works harder to do his duty. It's not that anybody is wrong here. It's just that we need to understand these tendencies more and have some conversations that are proactive and make sure dad gets involved early on and knows what to do. Not just be more involved, but let's discuss specific steps that you feel like you do well and wanna take over and get in there. - Take charge? Yeah, like own part of the, whatever the responsibilities of child care. To like, to not always go to mom and be like, I don't want to, like-- - Exactly, figure it out. You know? - Don't put the onus on her to tell you. - Yeah, like read me the instructions. Like yeah, just-- - Get a book. - Owning the process. - Get a book. - Yeah. - Yeah. - For the single mothers out there, is there any sort of practices or things that they can do to just like feel better in this, while all alone, yeah? For kids, it's hard out there for a single mom. I mean, as you're saying that my brain was just downloading every scenario and what are their resources and do they have a community? Do they have a social support group? Our society, depending on why state you're in, America is a very individualized culture in country. We don't have a lot of collective supports in place for people and child rearing is one of those things that is about as ancient as it gets. That's when we need community. And so my silence is because it reflects that we have a real dearth of resources or mothers for mothers in general. For anybody really needing mental health services who cannot afford therapy out of pocket. Our insurance companies are not reimbursing mental health services adequately. The providers who are contracting with Medicare are accepting really bottom of the viral rates. And then so they're churning patients. And then they don't have time to do the necessary best practices, collaborating care, sharing records, et cetera. It's a mess. And this is gonna be expensive. We need to put money into it to change the system to get childcare, to get supportive community to the new little lives that are coming up and gonna be our future. Speaking of the kind of aspects of mental health access, I know a lot of stuff in this case specifically with Lindsay Clancy was the different types of medications she was on and the switch and what that can do to you. So I was just wondering, I mean, honestly is someone who's on SSRIs and will occasionally just because of health care reasons. Sometimes you switch, you have to take breaks, you find different things, you get different providers, what's the ways that people can just make sure that they're staying okay during those fall offs and stuff like that. That's a really great question. And it's complicated. Before I respond to it, I do wanna give a couple of caveats here because the Clancy case is very complicated around this issue and I don't know the full record. So I don't want to presume that any effects were specifically just from medication changes. When you're a psychologist, you're teasing apart so many different factors. Was this a shift in her symptoms as that time that got misattributed to medication and the medication shift happened around that time because we were trying to respond to symptoms and then it's very common for patients who have higher levels of anxiety, especially if they're experiencing paranoia or have limited insight into their mental illness to misattribute their own symptoms, to medications or even to believe that or over appraise certain side effects. And it's not about discounting the patient. It's about there are certain mental illnesses where this is actually a hallmark, this is a symptom and ignoja so the lack of awareness of the mental illness itself is hallmark of schizophrenia and it's why you see a lot of medication resistance. There's so many, that's just one piece that I would be considering if I was looking at these records and I haven't looked at the records. It could also be that somebody has two many different providers and those providers aren't collaborating that's certainly a part of it or that the person continues to seek care for multiple different providers against providers' recommendations and then you also have the fault of the providers for not checking on that and seeing which prescriptions are filled. I don't know, I haven't seen the record. This, that alone could be an entire case review. - I know very little bit about this space. All I know is, and maybe I'm wrong, it just seems like SSR, it sounds like they've been very helpful for millions of people. It also seems like a lot can go wrong fast and it also feels like there's a lot of loopholes and possibilities that you just outlayed of how people, whether unintentionally, can put themselves in very dangerous situations 'cause these, regardless of how helpful they are, are very powerful drugs and literally change our mental wiring. So is that accurate? Is this like a topic that hasn't been discussed enough and is it affecting our culture and society and more ways than we realize or am I getting into the weeds? - Your questions are so good, but I'm like, let me send you every report I've written this year. So, I mean, so you were saying powerful drugs. So some of them are what, you know, how are we going to quantify powerful? So again, I am going off from memory from just some testimony I've seen. I've not reviewed the full case file. Do not come for me if I say the wrong medication, but my understanding from what I recall at the top of my head was that she was prescribed different types of medications, different classes. There were some anti-psychotics, Sarah Quill, for instance, is an anti-psychotic medication. These have a sedating effect. And obviously from the name anti-psychotic, the purpose of those is to treat those symptoms like the delusional thinking, the agitation, the hallucinations if present. And Sarah Quill also can really help sleep because of that sedating quality. But then you have your standard SSRIs. These are serotonin selective reuptake inhibitors. These are for depression, but most SSRIs are extremely safe. They are commonly prescribed and people have excellent responses to them and they can be really helpful for people who have depression, which is common. About 50% of the population is going to experience a full clinical major depressive episode at some point in their life. And some SSRIs are even considered safe with breastfeeding. So there are some, it's not that quantifying powerful, but one thing I will say, here's one thing that I will say that has been a topic of discussion in the case, and I think one that has a real clinical foundation. Postpartum psychosis is generally conceptualized right now in the research as a bipolar disorder manifestation. Women with bipolar disorder are most vulnerable for relapse or an episode after delivering, after giving birth. So postpartum psychosis is generally, it's believed to be actually a mood episode associated with bipolar disorder. Now, if somebody presents as depressed initially where the primary symptoms they are describing are consistent with depression, low mood, suicidal ideation, and they are prescribed an antidepressant or a serotonin selective re-uptake inhibitor. And SSRI, it can trigger a manic episode for somebody with bipolar disorder. And so if you have a patient who is suddenly responding with increased agitation to the extent that they are feeling restless, like they're gonna jump out of their skin a little bit, then Somnia is a big piece you're looking for. That is an indication that you were gonna stop that SSRI and go with something else that's mood stabilizing. And it's also a good diagnostic indicator of potential bipolar disorder if it wasn't previously diagnosed. I also want to just say here, as I realize I'm going on and on about meds, that as a psychologist, I cannot legally prescribe in the state of California. Anything I'm saying here is based on general psychological knowledge. I do hold a postdoctoral master of science and clinical psychopharmacology. So I am speaking about some of this from an educational standpoint from that degree, but I am not a prescriber. So I highly recommend that anybody who is listening to this and actually thinking of applying anything to themselves do not until you speak with your prescribing provider. - Kind of getting into this case and how people are digesting it. I don't know if this is a question for Dr. Curry or if this is just like a human question for Shannon. On one end, again, this horrible thing happened where these children lost their lives and a lot of people want accountability and then on the flip side, there's this necessary awareness of what we're spent a lot of time talking about and again, so grateful for the information you're providing us around just the awareness of postpartum. And while this tragedy happened, it's like what can we learn from this? And how you talk about hindsight blindness? How can we avoid that maybe in the future? And it seems like there's an on one end, a lot of people who want to have this kind of empathy for all the suffering moms out there. And then other people, couples are breaking up because like you have someone's like, I stand with Lindsay and then other people will be like, how can you stand with this person who murdered their child? And from a society standpoint, from a doctor's point of view, How can it work? How can we find common ground here for people to, you know, feel like there's, you know, assuming we acknowledge that the husband didn't do that. And we, you know, if you think that, then, you know, we're not here to change our mind. But for the people who recognize that this happened, how can people find common ground? Because I, you know, it's just like the world has gotten scarier online because it just seems like things that as a society, we could rally behind and recognize that this was wrong. And what can we do about it? It's becoming harder and harder as the collective for us to, you know, everything's come, you know, so politicized and things like that. But I'm curious as maybe this is a doctor, a question for Dr. Curry, but like how, yeah, like it just, it just seems as a father with young daughters, I am worried about the future and, and, and, and, and the discourse around these topics that I thought in the past, there was common ground and now there seems to be no common ground. I think it's really important that before we cast judgment and anything, we're, we're exposed to so much happening in media, and there's this dehumanization that automatically occurs when we're viewing somebody through a screen. And we see them as almost less than human. Now we may not tell ourselves we see them that way. It's, it's certainly not intentional. But there's something having that even when we get in our car, our blood pressure spikes our, our pupils dilate, we're willing to flick somebody off. And then if we are standing next to that person in a supermarket, a little old lady who's pushing her cart slowly, we're not walking up next to her and giving her the bird. Like, it's a different thing. So the analogy of being in your car and giving the little old lady a bird, the bird, hopefully before you realize it was a little old lady. But that analogy, that's what's happening when we're viewing a trial and people's lives on TV like that. And I think a really good practice is to put yourselves in the shoes, well, just imagine looking that person in the eye, sitting down with them. And if that's hard for you, I can tell you that I have sat in rooms with these types of people. I have interviewed family members, I have interviewed perpetrators, I have interviewed defendants, I have interviewed claimants, everybody suffering, all of us are suffering. We're all suffering right now. Everybody in this room is suffering. I think the one thing that really connects us is when we realize we're all suffering. You see this when there's a mass tragedy and people band together and you feel that love, that humanity. When we start to dehumanize, whether it's because we get too accustomed to looking at people through a distant lens on social media and giving our opinions about their lives and their crimes or whatnot, I think it hurts us. It fills us with reactivity and anger and it separates us from that really good feeling that we have when we look someone in the eye or that really good feeling, we have even in times of crisis or tragedy when people come together. We're humans and we are incredibly social beings. So we need that connection. I understand the compelling kind of urge to indulge in that reactivity and blame and that activated feeling on social media. It really is fascinating how addictive it feels with the brain. I've even noticed it recently, I'll post and then my whole identity that week is social media. It's late to stuff just like it's really powerful but I don't feel good when I'm checking it every day. Do you think that the whole notion of like everybody being miserable plays a component in the discourse just like it feels good to weigh in on somebody else's life to make me feel better about my own or just forget about my own? Yeah. I generally do find when I'm working with couples, if I have a partner that is really mean, okay? How long we've been working together no matter how many skills we've gone over no matter in the empathy is there. The rapport is good and I just can't get that partner to start to stop being mean. Sometimes I'll just be like right after they grow a zinger at their partner, I'm like, where did you learn to talk this way to yourself? You must really be mean to yourself and they'll collapse, right? I generally find that the people that are in the meanest, the most judgey are usually talking themselves that way. They may not be aware of it though. There's usually a lack of insight so it's not like you're necessarily going to turn things around on social media for them when a therapist is going to have years ahead to get them to go there. But yeah, imagine looking people in the eye or just looking in the eye more often and get off social media. That's well said, but it's so true and I'm sure Jimmy, you can relate to this feeling and I don't, you know, working in the kind of internet space, I mean, you know, I'm grateful for this space because I've made a whole business around it. Yeah, I think if, I don't know how to say this, but it's like, you know, when that, if you go on a reality TV show and you post something and you have your, you'll, everyone remembers their first like big, like, oh my God, like 50,000 people like this, a million people saw it. It's like this. It's a moment, right? How do I get the next one to 60,000? There's that. Well, yeah, there's that. And it feels like this crazy moment you can't even comprehend, but it's, it is also equally empty. There's nothing there, right? Because it's, there's this false sense of, you know, I was used to work for Salesforce in this previous life. I sold software and this Salesforce software company. I remember the CEO Mark Manyoff talked about a connected world. You know, all social media. It's all about connectivity. Let's all connect, you know, connect with the person in France. And ironically, it just seems like all really has created this huge disconnect because instead of connecting with our village and connecting with our community and connecting with the people at the grocery store and looking people in the eye. It just really feels like we, we feel like we're connecting, you know, it's like why are, you know, it's like moms, for example, have all this, there's all this mom content. You know, everyone's posting about it, but why do we all subsequently still feel alone, you know? And I think it's because there's this false sense of what social media brings us when we can like have that dopamine hit of views, impressions, likes, comments and still put their phone down and only we only feel alone. And if anything, we feel like again, that agitated of like, how do you get that hit again? What does this mean? It's a joke. Yeah. And then, you know, we, and then we'll so quickly ignore all that positive information because that one negative comment comes and ruins it all. And I, I will say I'm at least fortunate enough to have experienced that been gone to therapy as a result of it and try to come on the other side to just, to try to diminish my emotional response to being online. But I just, a few people get to have such a high and a low where they don't realize this impact because it doesn't matter if you have a million followers or 50 friends online. It's the same hit, you know, because it's all just, it's all perspective. Anyway, I'm just kind of rambling here. Well said. Well said. I think it goes back to the, the community thing about takes a village raised a child like having a actual community outside of your social media like where to actually derive validation and like, worth through like your loved ones and love literally companionship. Yeah. But yeah, because we're, you know, here, you know, with this case, everyone's is online talking about it, arguing about it. It is, it is in one way connecting the world, but the, the solution or the remedy is again, just like instead of arguing about the case with your friend or neighbor, just like finding that common ground and, and, you know, if you know a mother or, you know, reaching out, checking in, you know, like, and doing that two weeks after the case is over. Because my fear and what I think history shows us is that this is going to be absolutely forgotten in two weeks. I posted about Lindsey Clancy about a year ago and it was like, who's, you know, it just wasn't relevant. It wasn't on TV. And nobody was talking about maternal mental health except for some small groups and communities that actually do that work because of the case and, but they've been doing that work forever. And now it is the topic du jour as if it just arrived as an issue and, and my fear is it, and my prediction is it will disappear just as quickly. So this is stained attention that we actually need to create the kinds of changes in the system that this has brought some awareness to will vanish and in the meat and instead we're just sort of spewing vitriol all over each other. Well, can I ask a question? That's like kind of big picture, like, because I know like post pandemic, like there's a lot of distrust in like the system as far as like, you know, science, and it's clearly it's affecting the justice system too. Is there a way to like get the pendulum to swing back or is it just like because of social media because of distrust with all the systems? I don't know. I don't know. I, for that kind of a thing, there are experts that dedicate their entire life to talking about these types of societal shifts. And that's outside my scope. I think it would cut like, yeah, trust me. I feel it. Well, my big conspiracy theory, I don't even think it's a conspiracy is the entities driving discourse online. And it's not just coming from us or neighbors or the influencers, but it's a business. I just think again, to your point, Dr., there's no, there's no policing around it. And it's so easy to create thoughts and comments and unfortunately people have some dark motives in this world. Dr. Curry, I just, again, I want to thank you. This has been such a fascinating conversation and insightful. I learned a lot. I hope everyone listening to as well. This was fun. I'm also just grateful that we found you. I hope you come back. I loved it. This was so much fun. Where can people find you, follow you, enjoy all the information you're putting out there and continue to learn from you? At Curry's site is my handle of social media. And then you can go to my website, hurrypsychology.com. I wish you could stick around, because I want to talk about how, for my audience, when Dr. Curry leaves, I'm so tired of the way people misuse words in terms and the, I'm a self-sabotur. I'm over it. And I'm going to talk about it after Dr. Curry leaves. She probably should stay around, because I'm going to talk about it. I'm sure we can learn a lot, but-- - I might hang out, might sound, might be at the salve to my soul. - Well, we'll talk about marriage at first sight and also talk about some double lives. So stick around, thank you again, Dr. Curry. - Thanks so much. - All right, bye-bye. - Thanks guys. - She was amazing. What an incredible guest. - Wow. - I hope she comes back for more. She also just has a great podcast voice. Shout out, Dr. Curry. I'm glad we found her because she obviously brings a lot of expertise and information. It was just great to have someone as experienced as Dr. Curry. Shout out, Dr. Curry, I really appreciate your time. Tailing off on the Clancy case. Yeah, it's the only thing I found fascinating and I'll be honest, I'm very grateful for it because his team recently relates to statement, basically saying they're fighting back. And because I think he's getting tired of obviously the online discourse accusing him of being complicit in this terrible tragedy. I am glad he's doing it. And partly because I think, again, as Dr. Curry was talking about, the internet's just like the Wild West. It basically the issue to statement, whether you're a celebrity or a micro influencer, because there's a lot of people out there just creating, they're not just coming up with opinions, they're making accusations about him. And again, because the internet's written in ink, they're putting it out there. And potentially, you have lawyers out there like literally going, okay, this is liable, hire me because we can make a lot of easy money here. I don't think he's probably reaching out to those online attorneys, but I think his team is like, hey, we have some cases here. And honestly, I'm glad. And if his team is looking for people, I got some ideas. But for the ragebaders out there, the people out there online making a business out of coming up with like bullshit headlines and theories and essentially ragebait, right? On unchecked rumors that, you know, for the most time when it happens with you, it's just like, you know, it's like, oh, you could sue, but it's like, is it, you know, the whole process, so you can find, you know, it's costly and things like that. So you just get, most of the time, you deal with it, right? It's just like it's not worth it. But when you're being accused by the internet of murdering your children, that might compel you to actually fight back. And I honestly hope that he does go after some people of note. I honestly hope that this becomes a larger case in terms of how people can be liable for making up false rumors and accusations online that can ultimately ruin people's lives. And I am for one glad that he is choosing to fight back. - Yeah. It's almost like how anything that's got AI on it nowadays has to be labeled as like AI content. Like there could be a way to be like misinformation. - Yeah. - Just like, I don't know how you ran all of it. - Yeah, I don't know how you police it. And yeah, how the social media companies could go about it. And there's, you know, the lack of accountability is. - Yeah, yeah. - But if you're gonna say some shit online and you're gonna put it out there and you're gonna monetize it and you're gonna make money and you're gonna make a business out of it, usually it's just not worth the energy and effort, but like, you know, some day you're gonna say, "So you in court." - Can I be devils out to get on this for a second? - You can try. - Just for sake of, just, I'm locked to love it. - Let's say that misinformation on the internet is the purpose of getting clicks, right? Like, let's say a social media, let's say like a social media company. Yeah, your social media company responds with, I don't care. It's profitable for our business model to get, I don't care what information it is, that's not my job. It's like the user's job to differentiate. Let's say for devils advocate purposes, that's the argument. - That's an argument? I mean, I guess, yeah, but like, I guess the lawyer would say, "Great, well, if you say something that you're liable, it might cost you." And then yeah, business can weigh the cost versus, you know, the money they've already made versus like what they might have to pay in legal fees. I mean, I agree with you, and sadly, I think as a society, we have to now be discerning. You can't just go and believe anything online. You actually have to like, check your sources in spaces, even when it comes to the news, you have to check your sources. But obviously people, you know, people think they're checking their sources. Well, you know, as Dr. Curry mentioned, just are so like zeroed in on their opinion and their biases and they're already convinced of what they see and what they think and feel. It's like it doesn't, you know, like checking your sources is verifying your priors. I guess I just, the argument I'm posing is what do you do in the situation where that goes. Let's say this, all of this happens and there are conversations, there are court cases about disinformation online. What happens when you go to, let's say like TikTok or whatever and they're like, we don't care. I don't understand what you're saying. Like in the van of like we're not going to like do anything. Like the app itself. Yeah, like the, like the social media companies themselves - I mean, listen, that's a larger conversation. - That's a larger conversation about like how like, I mean, we can get in the weeds about how much our government should be involved in the responsibilities companies. Beside all of that, I am just simply saying, is that right now there is, there are no rules and as users of these products, like we have to decide for ourselves how we're going to move. And we all make mistakes and sometimes we can say things that like maybe aren't accurate or whatever, but there are people out there making, you know, having, you know, creators, small businesses making, you know, making money off of deliberately rage baiting people. And maybe at this point they believe their own bullshit. But they are deliberately putting out information in rage bait to go viral to make money. Not thinking about the consequences of things they're saying. And they're just like, you know, hey, it's just like, it's a valid question, other people are saying it. But like as these people grow followings, as they grow an audience, as they have more and more of these videos go viral, they are having true influence on the discourse that is happening in these public spaces. And they may end up saying something about someone who's actually willing to fight back and defend the things being said about them. And this case being as high profile as it is might be that very case where some people actually might be held accountable for the bullshit they put out there deliberately online. - I love that. - But it's a larger, you know, as far as the social media companies, that's a, that's a conversation for a later day. All right, we got to talk about marriage at first side before we wrap things up. And I already teased this, but like the whole like self sabotage thing, I am, I am over it as a term. I, it is valid. I obviously people do it. People experience it. I just, yeah, welcome back to Italy. - I'm over it. I'm over the, I'm a self-saboture. The conversation with Mecca and Bell, when they were in the pool, and obviously the topic about him talking about how he, he said she wasn't pretty enough. I thought that conversation was so fascinating to begin with because I appreciate how he handled it. But you know, maybe I'm projecting but I saw myself in Mecca. He clearly seems to be a man, a young man, and maybe has a lot to learn. But he's saying some things out of pocket, you know, he says some rude things sometimes. And when she calls him out, he first is like, I didn't say that. But quickly like acknowledges that maybe I did. And then finally acknowledges that, you know, and then you see the embarrassment on his face of like, you know, and I recognize it like the, I did it again. I said, I'm stupid shit. I didn't realize what I was saying. Maybe I was trying to be like a little snarky, little snappy, little funny, whatever. And he's recognizing this and she's calling him out. And she's like, maybe he just needs to grow up. Maybe he needs to be mature. All of the above is possible. And he's sitting across from the producer. And the producer was like, well, do you think maybe it's just you self-sabotaging? And he's like, you know what, yeah. Yeah, that sounds much better. And I just feel like the term self-sabotage of all the self-owns, of all the terms we're throwing out about relationships and things like that and the things that happen in relationship. I feel like the term self-sabotage is like, it's a little too chic. And both for the person who's allegedly self-sabotaging and for the person who is on the receiving of the self-sabotaging. Because finally there's a term, you know what, it isn't me. You know, and what I saw is a, you know, and the self-sabotage label is so vague that there's nothing really to do, you know, there's not necessarily, well, there's no like, well, let's dig deeper. What is causing the self-sabotaging? It's like a deflection of responsibility. Well, in Mecha's case, I think quite frankly, it's just like, as someone who maybe recognizes himself in a younger Mecha, is that like, maybe he just like, says some shit, he needs to learn his surroundings. He needs to, he needs to maybe learn some manners. He needs to maybe humble himself, you know, all of the above. Maybe there's some personality flaws that he has that have shown up in relationships. And now instead of addressing this flaw that she, it seemed like she was kind of getting to the bottom of and he was willing to recognize it. And then you have a producer being like, well, maybe you're self-sabotaging. And he's like, yeah, yeah, you know what? I'm not seeing rude things. I'm not being offensive. I'm just self-sabotaging. And it's just like, it's such a bullshit that people are now just throwing out there is like this convenient label to label themselves. Or when you don't wanna deal with it, maybe they're leaving you and they don't like you anymore because you're the rude one and they're self-sabotaging. - He's definitely not self-sabotaging because then that next conversation with him, with all the guys talking about like his type. And he's like, do you think she could get their physical, do you think she could get to that physique? Him saying he likes thicker girls. And he literally looks like at the camera and he's like not here. So he's like, oh, wear that he doesn't wanna have his conversation on camera because he knows he's gonna look like shit because his preference is wild. And then we have cam. - That was crazy. They're like so weird. - He's like, it's basically like, you know, when your mom says, do I look fat in this dress? And you say, no, I'm sorry. If I'm his mom, I'm like, what the fuck? (laughing) Yeah, like so I did look fat all those times. - I just never, never, never in my life. Well, I understand. the need to be like, "Yeah, you do look bad." You know what I mean, when someone asks you in general. I've said it to my homies. I mean, if it's really true, and they got something on their face, if there's something they can fix-- Like, ganging your hair cut. Like, I've always felt, if someone's fixable, that they have an eyelash, if their tag's sticking out, if their necklace is messed up, like that kind of stuff, you're like, "Hey, let me fix that for you." If it's a fixable thing, but if it's just like, you look ugly in that, what is that supposed to look like? Yo, your teeth are gross. Yo, yeah. I think you could get to that physique. Whoo! Shut the hell up. I think you could get to a sense of self, but I'm not saying that. You also don't say it after someone's like, "Oh, do you like my tattoo?" I just got it. Like, I love it. It's all new permanently for the rest of your life, so I love it. I'm obsessed with it, especially when we're seeing. Yeah, not like, so what were you thinking when you got that? Yeah. Yeah. It's time to place. But like, you know, a lot of people out there have to learn those life skills. I mean, I'm one of them, you know, since I'm still learning. You know, it's just like, fuck, you know. I'm sure Jamie, you have said some shit that your partner, well girlfriend or a friend, was like, what, and like, you know, and they, and like-- Kinda like trauma part. Like, they never let that shit go. And nor should they, 'cause it sticks with you. And that's not you self-sabotaging. Like, maybe you're just a little bit of a dick. And maybe you have to learn how to not be a dick, you know? And I think every young man, there's a little bit of like, especially when it comes to their partners of learning, you know, could your point, 'cause like, speaking of your boy is very different. Exactly. There's like certain like, douchebag tendencies. - Question to that. Why? - What? - Why speaking to your boy is so different. - I think you can just be like, brutally honest with your boys sometimes. - I think, yeah, I think men and relationships are different. I think women, you know, like women, women give each other shit, you know? And I think it comes from a different place in the less judgment and a more relatability. - Yeah, I definitely feel like I can say to like, my closest friends like, bitch, don't wear that shirt. - Or just like even the girls, the Hulu show, like when Iris and what was at Olivia, like they were like arguing and they were getting into it, the way they were trying to like, call each other out, like the way two dudes would go about that, it was just so, like the way they communicate is so different. - Yeah, yeah. - No, that's a good point. - I could not get over. It was like, like episode 16 or something. The whole like, Devon and Caitlin thing, where Caitlin was like trying to get him to make a move. - I've turned, I've turned, I've turned a new leaf on him. Yeah, I, I don't like Caitlin, I think she's a mean. - Okay, my thing on that is like, I get his frustration, but also like was Devon, Devon just like couldn't close and then he was making that her problem. - I don't think so. - No, I don't think so. - I was like, Caitlin has been very particular about how she doesn't like him also. - She does, she does it like him. - She does, but she doesn't. - Yeah. - And that's the thing where I'm like a norm, like any type of relationship with mutual attraction, it doesn't have to be spoken about in such a way. Even look at Nikki and Sean, where I didn't think that we'd be seeing him coming home from a business trip and her being like, oh, kiss is at the door. - Yeah. - But I'm like, you grow into that chemistry. You don't have to be like, hey, I touched your knee and padded your shoulder. You didn't know that was the sign to come. And if that, you should have been feeling that. - You know what I mean? Like that's not giving romantic interest. That's giving like, well, I did the bare minimum. Why didn't you pick up on that? - I guess. - I don't like the way she invalidated the way Devin felt about like her doing some little cute shit with Mecca and how that made him feel. And she kind of just started deflecting and then she turned it on him. I ain't like that. And that's what led them to like breaking up and she started crying. I feel like she was crying because she realized that like, - She doesn't like that. - She don't like him. Or like maybe a good thing might actually go on a way because she's like being like, he does give me everything I want in a partner. - And maybe that's part of her trauma too that she can't appreciate what somebody else is bringing to the table until they're gone. - I just don't buy Devin's whole thing of like, you need to let me talk. - You do too much. I mean, I said it when we made the video like, you look, I think there is some, I was watching yesterday. Tori and Felipe were arguing. And I, listen, I think she just doesn't like him. I think she has a lot of valid reasons why she's not into him and he demonstrates a lot of red flags. But I can appreciate from his standpoint where it probably at this point feels like he can't win with her, right? And anyways, there was a scene where they were fighting and I was tending the kids or whatever and it was on the background. So I wasn't really like hearing the discourse of the fight but I just saw Felipe being agitated and Felipe looks like a pretty big guy especially compared to her. And just his like, his presence was large, right? And he's agitated and he's kind of yelling and I'm not really hearing the context. But so for my interpretation was like he was the bad guy for sure because here is this large, very angry man talking and she's crying. She's just crying and I think when we watch these shows, sometimes we see that and I think sometimes in these cases where I think it becomes difficult for men to express their emotion and rightfully so because of the optics but like it is hard for them to get frustrated and agitated on camera in a situation where there are feelings. I think Felipe just doesn't know how to have a conversation. I'm not talking about what he talked about. I'm just recognizing that I was seeing this guy just being agitated and maybe he was also that he's totally wrong. But I just saw an asshole because I saw her crying and I saw this larger man just getting very animated and he just looked like he was the bad guy. And that moment was he not kind of the bad guy for not being able to like recognize that. I feel like like a lot of times like if I'm in an argument with a man when he starts getting like very, very heated and like looming and physical, I'm like, you need to fucking watch yourself because like you should know what this looks like. So maybe stop being that emotional about your argument and just like have a conversation. - Yeah, but you know. - He was very much giving like week ass bitch in that moment. He was giving like. - Well, yeah, it's fully. - You were telling him in general, not fully bad. Just tell me what you don't, tell me what you don't do. It was very cry baby. It was very like doesn't know how to have a conversation. - Yeah, outside of that, I don't necessarily agree with his point of view, but I can empathize why he doesn't understand why, you know, because he thinks these are just like his worldviews that are probably just really immature and she's just tired of dating a child. - Yeah, I mean, this is a guy who went fully like zero to a hundred on his decision if he wanted to stay married to her. I mean, she was like one now and then all of a sudden, she was like, well, now you can go back to your single life and he was like, okay, and got up out of the bed and was like, stay later, like there was no, I don't want this like wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. And then, yeah, he came down all set like. - Well, that's sold us off. - Yeah. - Do we think Sean and Nicky are gonna make it? - No, no, no. - No. - They did get into this repeated cycle of like, we're gonna argue, oh, then we get over our argument, maybe we actually can. Let bygones be bygones and move forward. And then again, turn it over. - Yeah, that could just be good. - And we learned a lot. - Storytelling and editing, you know. - Yeah, it could be like a shrivel. - The Seattle 10, New York 7, conversation, it was just kind of like, I don't know, shitty thing to say, but I'm like, not that, not I don't think it was that deep. And then to see the conversation about it and he was like, no, I said that to you because you jostled my tummy fat and made me. - And that's why this was warranted. - Yeah, no, no, no, no, these two people cannot. - Yeah, no. - It's gonna keep button hits. - 100%, guys, don't like each other. He, she gets under his skin, he gets under her skin. You're not sexually attracted to him. He is making that your problem. - 100% and it's just like, it's just, no. - My hot take with Sean and Nicky is just like, Sean literally felt like, from the moment he met Nicky, that Nicky wasn't that into him. And then since then has been like, making that Nicky's problem. And every single time he, like, says something, it's just a way to like bring her down to like the level he thinks that she thinks he's on. And then it's just an insecurity thing. And then also at the same time, you have like, the way he communicates with her stresses me the hell out. 'Cause one second, he's like, yes, Deba, oh my God. Like, let's do that, which that's not you. And then you have like, the insecure part that's popping out. And it's like, that's not completely either. And you either, because that's your insecurity leaving. And then you have the therapy speak, which is a different thing that he communicates to her, like as a robot, not a person. And I'm like, I just want him to be able to be himself around her and not monitor himself. - But even she's saying that she's changed how she is. - Yeah, for him. - For him to be nicer to her, where I'm just like, again, so these are not two people meeting authentically as they are and accepting each other. - Yeah. - Two people changing drastic things about themselves, to be palatable to another person who doesn't like you anyways. - They're putting each other like into a box to maintain this sort of couple thing. And I just don't vibe that they would want to do that outside of a situation where they had to get married at first. - Maybe it depends on what they're looking for, right? I think, again, who knows, right? But like we have to acknowledge that these people, like they were strangers in a marriage. And intense situations often bring out our biggest weaknesses because it's like, it's fight or flight, right? It's more reactive than we are thoughtful in these situations. And this is just like a highly intense situation. But also maybe depends on what they're looking for in a marriage. Like, Nikki and Sean both seem to be incredibly polished, put together. They have high opinions of themselves and expectations of the people they date. That, I think you can say the same about both of them, how they show up in that space. I think is obviously the nuance of this relationship. But as two people who expect a lot from their partners, I, it would not shock me that in the early stages of relationship, they're bumping heads about, how they show up. And I think sometimes when we pick our partners, right? I think a lot of people, I want someone who makes me laugh and yada yada, you know, there's a lot of people out there who have married the man who makes them laugh, who's a lazy piece of shit and not the best co-parent or partner, you know? But they're funny, everyone loves them. They're very kind, you know, they're generous, but like sometimes they're not the best partners when you're in a marriage. And sometimes with people like Sean, I think Sean has some personality traits that are not very appealing to a lot of people. And I think you can turn a lot of people off. But he does seem like a guy who holds himself accountable and is willing to show up in relationships. And I wonder if Nicky and Sean can work through some of their, you know, both of their kind of rougher edges when it comes to their personalities. But at the end of the day, they both appreciate the fact that they can expect a lot from their other person and that person who expects a lot of themselves and recognizes that they, if they're going to expect a lot from their partner, they have to also show up that they can't find common ground because while they, and they just acknowledge in a relationship, they're both going to get on each other's nerves from time to time because they both have annoying qualities. Marriage isn't perfect. And relationships aren't perfect. And compatibility isn't perfect. And sometimes you just have to, what are you prioritized the most in a relationship? Because again, like I think a lot of people have married the funny, funny guy and that didn't work out. - I just don't see the compatibility anywhere, though. - Outside of maybe like having good careers. Yeah, like there's no affection. They don't make each other laugh, they get along well when they're key, king about the other couples. - I don't think they're performing when they show up and kiss each other at this stage. I think they're actively trying to find that common ground. - I think they're trying, but it's not like a spark. - The show is going to obviously highlight the drama. We know we're getting 4% of this relationship, you know? - Right, but I also think you have two people that like don't want to lose. And like I feel like there's a, if we keep trying, they're going to go till the end no matter what, where we're seeing couples dropping left and right because they're realizing this isn't gonna work. - Yeah. - I'm like I think these two people are very, you know, had strong. I think that they want to believe that it could work, but I think when it comes down to it, I think they're just so vastly different in their communication, the things that they want. And I'm just like, I just don't see somebody getting there without calling that settling. - The only hope I hope for them is that like, they've already gone through so much together that like, at least from what we've seen, that like, like calling a quits and then starting with somebody new, just like the thought of that sucks. Cause I feel like inevitably these two, no matter who their partner is, there's gonna be somebody has because they do expect a certain thing from their partner. - Yeah, and I'm just saying big picture wise, I would, you know, I think it's easy to say the wrong thing, show up in a way that is received or you being rude or dismissive and maybe don't even intend it. And then learn how your partner receives information, adjust, humble yourself, learn how to communicate, but like the things that you value in a relationship, in terms of like, every day deciding to show up in a relationship, every day being like, this is something I gotta work on, you know, because it's fragile. And that just takes consistent energy and effort. And I think there's a lot of people who are like, very charming early, in early stages of dating, who lack that drive to show up in a relationship. And if there's one thing that Sean and Nikki, I think have, is a willingness to do that. Now, a lot of people like them still get it wrong. I'm just saying like, there's something there that I think is underappreciated when it comes to making a lifelong relationship and a marriage work. - My question is that obviously like, we talk about relationships a lot, and specifically with the show like married at first sight, obviously they're already married. So they already just have to make it work. That's the premise of the show, right? But I think it's like when we talk about relationships and kind of like serious, committed relationships, I'm saying this is someone who hasn't been in one. And so I think about it a lot like, but to me, it's like, yeah, that's great that I'm meeting someone else who also has the same intentionality as me and who has the same like things that they want and want to work on and like drive to like, for lack of a better term like when and have a successful relationship. That means absolutely nothing to me. If I don't like, if I'm not like feeling you. - Enjoy dinner. - Enjoying dinner, wanting to hang out with you. Like to me, it's like if I don't have like, if I'm not yearning for you, like what the fuck is the point? Like if I'm not like, oh my God, like I wish this person to share, like I wish I could tell you about this. Like I wish I could just hang out and like do something on a random day with you. Like why would you try to make a relationship work with someone you don't want to do that with? Is my question. - Well, because what you're describing is like often like the spark that people refer to, which is often very fleeting and sometimes that spark, that yearning for someone can simply just come from a shared experience like going on reality TV, you know, being part of the same church, you know, whatever, you know, thinking each other or hot, whatever, you know, thinking you can't get this person and they give you a little bit of hope. And sometimes because like, you know, outside of the show, you know, there are arranged marriages and that is something that can be developed. You know, we debate and discuss whether can you grow to be physically attracted to someone, maybe you can, maybe you can, but you can certainly grow an emotional connection. You can find ways that you connect with people on intellectual levels, emotional levels, shared experiences and bonding and that will make you yearn for someone, that will make you more connected. And when you, and when you have, when that grows and then you lose that, I'm just saying like that, what you describe is something that if one thing I've learned in relationships is someone who's lost, you know, hasn't had a lot and finally feels like, you know, I got a pretty decent one. Is that, you know, those things matter and those things are definitely, are things you grow? - I totally get that. And I don't mean to equate like, honestly, like the feeling of having a crush on someone with like what, like a mature relationship and love would look like. I think those are two different things. I guess my question is just like, I think both of the things are important in a relationship and I wonder if it's more important sometimes to like focus on building like the romance and the fun versus like those like, kind of like the big adult, adulting things about relationships. - It hurt me from wrong, but I feel like the specific situation with them is less about like the yearning and more about the fact that they just are constantly walking on eggshells with one another. - They just like, don't really like each other. - Yeah, I feel like I'm simplifying. - I think they're perfectionists. I think they both are a little rough around the edges. I think they both have, I mean the stronger the personality you have, the less appealing you are to the masses, you know. And I think they both have strong personalities. And I think you're, you know, when two strong personalities get in the room together, almost, one or two things happen. There's either instant chemistry. There's like, bam, we get each other or there's instant friction. And I see with them, you're seeing instant friction. And I think - That's a good point. - And I think that's what the show, because it's a show. And we will have the drama. And we want to see the friction. That's what we're going to see. And if I'm a producer, and I got, I don't know what's going to happen. Maybe they're just like, maybe they hate each other now. I don't know, like, yeah, who knows, right? But if I'm a, if I'm a producer and I'm an editor, and if they ended up together, this is how I'd tell their story. - Period. - Well, that's going to wrap up for today's show. We still have yet to talk about the double lives of suburban wise, but thank God we have another reality recap episode tomorrow. Tune in tomorrow. It's going to be another great fun episode. We want to, again, thank our very special guest, Dr. Curry for taking the time to educate us on some very important topics. Obviously, we're a lot, very fascinated with this case. This Lindsay Clancy case, but we really appreciate Dr. Curry for guiding us through what is true, what is untrue about this case, and most importantly, making us more aware of the challenges that moms face, and help us understand a little bit more about postpartum depression and the things that we can do to make this world a better place. Thank you, again, Dr. Curry. Always great to have you, Sierra and Jimmy. Thanks to everyone for listening. We'll see you back tomorrow. Bye-bye. (upbeat music)