E1177 - Nat & Liv From The Girls Talk Getting Real, Lindsay Clancy Trial, DWTS Rumored Cast

(upbeat music) - What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of the Vow Files Reality Recap Edition. I'm your host, Nick, joined by my sexy gorgeous, wonderful, incredible Hero Mom wife, Natalie Joy. - Wow. - Hero Mom. - Hero Mom. - I love that one. - Wow. - Let's have examples. - Shout out to the Hero Mom's out there. You know, we had a really great weekend with our family, including Ellie's mom, and we had-- - My sister drove up. - Sister came in, our friend Victoria Fuller's in the area. - Julia. - We got-- - We got Gigi or G, you know, we got a village. - Gigi. - Who's Gigi? - In Genevieve. - It's crazy. - We have new games for everyone. - Wait, Genevieve's hanging. I love Genevieve. - It came to, listen, it really does-- My mom was like, it really takes the village with twins. - Anyways, lots of parenting conversations going on on this episode. The world has lost their mind with this Lindsey Clancy case. And we are finally going to talk a little bit about it. And obviously, given the sensitivity of this case, we will try to do it with tact in ways that maybe some people on the internet aren't. We actually have a very unique guest, our booker, Angela, is going to join us when we talk about the case. Not only because when we were talking about, you know, how do we want to have a conversation around this case and what a potential guest should we have. Angela was very gracious to talk about her own experience as a mother who's someone who has dealt with severe postpartum. And she just talks so passionately from her lived experience. And I felt like I learned a little bit and from her just hearing her. So we invited her on because if more than anything, I think there's just a lot of discourse. And as often the case, misinformation and confusion on certainly postpartum, certainly there needs to be an awareness. I think that's one thing we can hopefully all agree on. Angela, our booker is going to join us to talk about this. And then obviously we'll get into, you know, some of the other things that are, you know, being talked about in some of the craziness that is going on as a result of this case. But before we do, we have some fun things to actually talk about. The dancing with the stars lineup is really taking shape. Do you, when did they announce? September 2nd, right? All right, so September 2nd. So as often as the case with dance with the stars, they do a big kind of cast announcement via GMA. Obviously the Disney affiliate for the, the Disney family. So shout out GMA. But like, unlike maybe other seasons, has this happened as much? But it feels like they're really leaking names. - It does seem like they're doing that. But honestly, it's just getting me more excited. I mean, should we go through, should we go through who's confirmed and who's rumored? - Yes. - 'Cause I'm itching. Okay, so confirmed we've got Sierra Miller, Mora Higgins, Jackson Olson, and Guillermo Rodriguez. - They've been confirmed by the actual show. - Yes, yes, they have been confirmed. - But they have not been confirmed of who their partners are, Jess Guillermo. - Jess Guillermo. - I believe Jess Guillermo, yes. And then for the rumored cast, which this can be from like rumour, rumour to, they've been like spotted outside the building and people are throwing it in. These are just really fun names. Tyler Cameron, Connor Levitt, Sarah Jane Nader, Jenna Dewan, Julia Stiles, and Tatiana Ali. - I feel like Sarah Jane Nader is confirmed because Brooks is like commenting on rumored posting, like she copies everything I do. - Yeah. - Yeah, it goes Sarah Jane. - Yeah, I think so too. - Also, it's like, you know, the love that Nader, obviously, again, part of the Disney family, it makes a lot of sense that they're using this to promote their own show. - And Brooks, I mean, that was a good season with Brooks and Glad. Was that last season? - Yeah. - Yeah. - Did they need a partner for gloves? There's no way she would dance with gloves. - That would be crazy. - Oh my god. - Oh, I actually heard, there's a rumor that's gonna have a female partner. Yeah. - Yep. - Her that too. - Ooh. - Yeah. - Again, all rumored. - All rumored. - It would be, it would be a good female partner for her though. I'm like, thinking height-wise. She's a model, so she little taller. She's like, I mean, I feel like, I mean, didn't, wasn't Jenna. - Jenna, what's your name? - What's your name? - Maybe since she's got like, practice, also dancing, female-female, maybe, they'll use her yet. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I don't know. Aren't you like, you don't, I mean, it's gonna be hard to switch it up, yeah. - But the question is, who leads? So I think when JoJo Dan, but because that is part of dancing. - Yeah, like someone's got a lead. - Why are you looking at me like, what did you say? - I wonder if there's like, I don't know. I feel like there's a dynamic where they're both kind of leading. - Yeah. - You know, when both kind of following, that could be kind of fun. On dancing with the stars, but amongst the pros, there is often, I wouldn't sit not complaining. But the women pros would always tell me that like the men pros have the advantage. Because in the dance, they're leading the dance. - For sure. - They can just throw their partner around. - And as long as you're just like, I trust you, you, they can kind of really lead the dance where like the male celebrities, the stars, they're supposed to lead these dances and they don't know what the fuck they're doing. So it's just a lot more difficult. So that really meant like, who's leading in the dance is matters. So, I imagine JoJo led when she was, - Maybe some of the stars. - But JoJo's also a professional dancer. - That's true. - Which continue on with the rumored cast. - Julia Stiles. - I was gonna go, I was gonna go dinner to watch. - I also want a professional dancer in the ill of JoJo. Not necessarily ballroom dancing, but certainly, what is she on like, I think you can dance or something, or? - She was in step up. - Oh, she was in step up. Also famously married to Channing Tatum. Also a great dancer. Not that like, who you're married to helps you dance, but. - Are they still married? - Oh my god. - Oh my god. - Oh my god. - Oh, okay. - She's really married. - She's got a- - She was dating Zoe Kravitz for a while. - Yeah. - She has a child with her new husband, who also is a very talented singer, performer entertainer. - But it is, it would be crazy if the rumors are true to have both Jenna Dewan and Julia Stiles in a season of Dancing with the Stars. You have step up and save the last dance. - Who did it better? - That's huge. That's huge for a very specific group of girls that grew up with dance movies. - Julia Stiles is a really incredible casting for Dancing with the Stars. It is a very interesting cast. - People think Julia Stiles might be with Ezra. That's the rumor. - Who they're paired with, I guess I'll more just kind of find out. Are people that excited about the pairings as much as? - I think people are. I think people love the idea of like a romantic connection or some kind of a show man. - A show man. - A show man. People love that. - Who are the alleged celebrities? Who are the single ones? - I don't think any. - So maybe. - No show man. - No show man. - Sierra. - Sierra. - Sierra Miller? - Sierra. - Yeah, is more a single? - I think more a single. - Mm-hmm. - And that's more single? - I don't think so. - I don't think so. I think he's more. - Something tells me that more in Sierra Miller won't want to have a show man. - I agree. I feel like that would take away for their narrative of the season of Independence for sure. - Yeah. - I'll be curious. I think having both of them on the cast will be really interesting. I feel like they're, they have a similar vibe in the sense that they're both like really powerful, strong single women. And I feel like you kind of, each year there's like a casting for different people where it's like, okay, we have this person who represents this thing. And they're both, I feel like they're both kind of that person. - Yeah. - Continuing out with who's rumored, we have Tatiana Ali who's, I believe for Fresh Prince Abelia, correct? - The old one or the new one? - Both. - Mm-hmm. - Booked in Black Sea. - OG sitcom star. - Which one is she in the, which one, what character she play? - Ashley. - Oh, okay, love. - The youngest. - Okay. - Yeah. I saw Connor Levitt is also rumored, which is, have they ever done that before? Like a wife then a husband? - I don't believe so. That makes me wonder if there's a spin-off coming from them. - Right. - Oh, a winning and Connor spin-off? - Well, with the whole, you know, with Sarah Jane Nader, you know, like again, like ABC is going to use these, these other shows, these popular shows to promote their own shows. And obviously Whitney did very well and she had a great fan base from the show. And Connor was a very supportive partner. Unless there are plans for Connor, you know, and Whitney. It would seem kind of like a random casting. - I do feel like-- - It makes me think there's maybe something in the works. - I do feel like they've kind of teased that idea. 'Cause didn't they launch like their own production company or something? - Sure. - Mm-hmm. - I do like, they have their idea. - Yeah. - They're a spin-off story. - Yeah. I also think Connor because of Whitney Lassies. And like he has such like a wholesome, you know, quality to him, like especially within the community of dancing with the stars in the fan base. So I think he would be like for the fans who got to watch him last year, just like support his wife and then go see him dance. Could be really fun. - Usually that's not enough to get a casting. Usually it's because I think there's-- - Something in the works? - Yeah, I just wonder if it's like in tandem. - You know what I mean? - Plus we know that man loves the costume. - Like Zach Affleck would never get this opportunity. - No, but I feel like people also like Connor more. - Totally. I'm saying he's got to be something-- - He's a bit more in the social graces. - For them, because I think it would happen for Zach. - We have other couples that have done dancing with the stars Carlos, [BLANK_AUDIO] and Alexa, Penavega, and then Nick Lache, Vanessa Lache. - I'm not familiar with the Penavegas. - Me either, but we love to see a good for them. - Were they on the same season or different seasons? - That is a great question. - That would be kind of cool, like if they could compete against each other, yeah. - And then we have Tyler Cameron, which I'm very excited about. - I'd love to see it. - We'd love to see it. He honestly, like, he should have had his moment years ago, but I'm glad that it's finally-- - I'm kind of surprised he took them this long to get cast and undancing with the stars. He famously, for those of you, for Bachelor fans, came out dancing in his intro package on "Hunter Brown" season, and his hips didn't that lie. So, and it'll be really exciting, I think, at least for us, you know, Tyler's in a very different stage of life now, recently engaged. He's settling down, as they say, to a wonderful person, Tate. I think the challenge for Tyler will be, he's so used to, on a public stage, to being the sexy heartthrob. - I think he can still be that. - Well, I think what's cool about getting to see Tyler in this phase of his life is, I think it reminds you that so many of these celebrities we see on TV are just like us, just normal people. - So, also, we didn't talk about the randomness of the casting, do we not want to talk about that? I think a lot of people are discussing the cast. - Yeah, it is interesting at this point, because it's like, yeah, a lot of people are saying it's random, but in their influencers on it, but what's the difference between a star and an influencer at this point on a show like Dancing With The Stars? - Yeah, I guess like last year we had Alex Earl, who of all influencers feels like she carries a lot of star power, where I don't know that there's anybody who's quite an Alex Earl in the cast. - Well, also, I think people have to remember like how they cast this show. They're pulling from various, like, you know, with Dancing With The Stars, they want to pull from popular niche audiences, right? So that's why they often will try to get like someone from the Bravo space, right? They'll try to get some, you know, a few people from, just like generally like reality TV stars, and now because of the rise of rise of influencers, you're gonna have like TikTokers and just like your traditional influencers, the casting of Tyler I think is, for anyone who it feels random, because he hasn't been on the Bachelor for a while. I think that speaks to like the fact where Bachelor Nation is at. Obviously we had, we didn't have our Bachelor at season. I don't think Taylor Frankie Paul's available to dance. There's no like obvious, relatively new person from that franchise, but it's still like a legacy franchise that still has a very strong fan base, and I think that's why they go to someone like Tyler, who still has like, he's probably one of the still, still the biggest names and most relevant names in Bachelor Nation, who has yet to compete. So like that, you know, that in itself makes sense, but yeah, they're building a roster, they're building a team and they're always gonna pull from different pockets of popular niche audiences. Like for example, the Savannah Banana guy, we talked about this on plus, like they always find, like on my season that we had a like a bull rider who was like a model slash bull rider, and in bull riding, it's a very popular space, it's very niche, and they wanted, you know, they're pulling from these kind of parts of America that, you know, they want representation. So like with the Savannah Banana has taken off, like he's kind of feeling that niche, you know, it's up and coming, they're bringing them on, you know, so. - That just like shows you the power of TikTok because the Savannah Banana is for those of you who don't know I'm from Savannah, so that was like a very, it's, we don't have any other, - How long has it been around? - A long time, so it was like its own baseball team. I think my dad like, played for him or something, it wasn't a, you know, known thing, but, and then they started getting, basically baseball players who couldn't make it to the AAA or Major League or whatever. - They're very good, but not quite good enough. - Very good, but not good enough, and they just started like this silly thing, and I feel like they were the first to do it, but it was the only thing you could really do in Savannah was to go to these Savannah Banana's games, and it was just so family friendly, like they're just so silly, they interact with the crowd a lot, and so to see it, take off the way it did, obviously it's because like they were filming TikToks and doing all these TikTok dances, and TikTok really blew 'em up, but now I see 'em literally everywhere. They are truly popping off, like they are everywhere, I feel like they're in commercials now, it's just really wild to see, 'cause it was such a small town thing. - Well, I think it's gonna be a fun season. There's a lot, I mean Julia Stiles is a very fun casting, Jenna Dewan, also very fun casting, in a mix of your more traditional celebrities, and just kind of the, this is what celebrity means today, but speaking of celebrities, and celebrities who are just like us, a lot of people are having fun watching the Uman skis, take their daughter off to college, and you have Kyle and Mauricio in the family, posting like a vlog style of their, as a family, despite them being separated, not technically divorced, but no longer in their marriage, but still being very much a family when it comes to supporting their daughters. And a lot of people have enjoyed watching this very wholesome video of the Uman skis, and with Kyle and the Beverly Hills housewives, there's always this perception of unobtainable life, and glitz and glamor, and flying, you watch Beverly Hills housewives every time they travel, they're going to this very private staging area, where you show up for the air light, and they're flying first class, but when the Uman skis are just being a family, they're going to Burbank Airport, and they're flying Southwest, and they're flying coach, and they're just, they're just like us. - They're ordering Taco Bell. - Kyle Richards is getting a cron trap supreme, and I wanna know, it's like, I wanna know Kyle Richards, - Taco Bell order. - Taco Bell order. - Late night order? - Yeah, I guess that should have been included in the vlog. Like, what did everyone get, mukbang? - Yeah. - They should circle back and give us what the people want, because I agree. - Yeah. - I've said this before too, like, despite what's going on in Kyle and Mauricio's marriage, I think I give them so much credit and so much praise, 'cause of outside of the difficulties of American marriage work, which is, we all know, it can be a challenge over the course of a lifetime, but the way they prioritize their family outside of themselves, I think it's such a beautiful thing, honestly, and given how common divorce is, and how difficult it is to make a marriage last, I think it says a lot about Kyle and Mauricio, and how they've prioritized their family, and that it's still possible. Like, it is still possible to. - Like, they can put their problems to the side, and just be there for their kids, which is something coming from a divorced parents, it's something that I wanted my whole life. I remember the only time my parents were in the same room was like a high school graduation, and that was, they like, thought about having to take, be in the same place. - And there was always drama, yeah. - You know, it was like, we have to take a photo with me, and I need both of my parents, and they were like, oh, no, you know? - Yeah, right. - So I think it's just really beautiful that they're able to do this, and kind of, you know, and truly be influencers, and when it comes to what it can look like, what's a family that, you know, you had your marriage problems, but you can still be a family, and I think I really admire them as parents, and what they do, and they are great role models. I certainly hope that now, and I will continue to work on our marriage and fight for our marriage, and stay together. But I think there are so many beautiful things that we can learn from you, Manskies, of how they've been able to prioritize their family, and I think it's just great. I love them for it. I think it's awesome. - Well, speaking of family and housewives, we had Gina, who, from Orange County, like posting a Facebook review of her son, who's like powerwashing trash cans in their neighborhood. Is this right? - It was so awesome. - It was really cute. - Yeah, basically, he had been like, doing this little side hustle of like cleaning trash cans, and someone was like, this young man, if anybody wants their trash cans cleaned, go for this young man. Just like out of, like without like Gina doing anything, and she, like, this kid just like, you know, is good at his services, and everyone wanted to prop him up. - And he's taking pride in his work, which feels like a niche enough job. You know, it's like easy for kids to do. It's also niche. It's also, no one else really wants to do it. Like, clean your trash cans. - Hold on, like, yuck, I'm good. - What is he charging? - That's a great question, says. Does the Yelp have business information? Does he have a card? See, Gina, these are the things you should be asking your son after supporting him. - He could have gotten so much more business had she included his business card. - It's also like, are we adjusting for inflation? You know, like, I know what sanitation costs in my rent. I just hope he's getting, I hope this kid isn't making money. - I feel like he is. I feel like a neighborhood in Orange County, like, it's not gonna be cheap to get your trash can washed, but he is a teenager. So, you're getting a discount. Oh my gosh, you're kidding. That's a deal. - 10 dollar, what's Orange County? - That's a good price. That's a great price point. That's a good price point. - I also love that Gina was just so, like, proud of him and wanted to reshare it, because I'm sure, I mean, I don't know. I feel like as a kid, like, all you wanna do is make your parents proud. Well, if you're a good kid, I guess, but I think that she's such a good mom and cares so much about her family and the family dynamic. So, I love that she was just so proud and wanted to reshare this. - I love Gina. And Gina, also, like, I mean, I'm making it a bit about money, just 'cause my head is going of, like, I would put myself as this kid being like, all right, how can we scam these Orange County women who have loved me? But Gina doesn't care about him, like, making money and stuff, she's just proud of him, like, being, We're like a good kid. Work ethic goes a long way. Yeah, how old is he? That's pretty cool. He's a teenage. He's 11. 11. He's 11. I was thinking he was like 15. Me too. Oh my gosh. Smart. Business. Mine. Yeah, he's going to do great things. Yeah. Speaking of smart, you know what River did over the weekend, which blew my mind. I don't honestly, it was shocking and terrifying all at the same time. It was crazy. Mm-hmm. Now he got, right now, when River gets a boo-boo, she wants a band-aid. So she's covered in band-aids. For an abandoned stage. She like, you know, and it bumps something. She needs a band-aid. So now they got her some character-themed band-aids, and she got her frozen band-aids. Now, frozen's one of the movies that we haven't really watched with River. I think we put it on like when we were just like kind of new to introducing Disney movies to River, and we were kind of finding what we wanted her to watch. And we've really leaned into some of the classics. So I think it was like at least over a year since we've turned on Frozen for River. And now they've got the frozen band-aids. And she off the box, looked at the box, and it had Elsa, the two princesses, and immediately River started singing Let It Go, Let It Go. And I'm like, how did she know that song? Like we haven't played that movie for her. That was crazy. It's been like over a year. That's crazy. No, it's crazy. It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy how young kids are in like how much you will just like soak up a culture. I found an old like home movie of me like the other week when I was like probably like four or five. It was an old video of me singing 50 cents in the club and the lion sleeps tonight. And it's just how does your dad feel about you knowing the lyrics to in the club? Oh, he didn't care. Yeah, right. It's a video of my mom and my sister singing, Mary Singo Shorty, like they were encouraging it. But it's just like really funny. The way kids' brains will like absorb everything to this day. I associate those two songs together. River is the most curious child ever. I can't like be chewing something without her going, what do you have in? And it'll be like a chocolate covered almond. And I'm like, nothing. I have nothing in my mouth. She's like, not open your mouth. What do you have in? I'm like, do you want to know? Nothing. I love it. Are you guys going to encourage your children to have jobs at 11, 12 years old? Are they going to be? Yes. For sure. I remember like, I was like, there was a mom and pop gas station like right up the street from our house. And when I think what right up the street, it was actually like too far of a walk for us to be walking, but we were definitely walking there. And we'd walk up to the gas station and stock the shelves for them. Like stock the refrigerator. The drinks, the refrigerator section, the shelves, and he was giving us like cash under the table. Well, now he actually recently sent me this really, I don't know if it was a TikTok or real or whatever. But it talked about like the reason why it's important to give your kids responsibility and charge early in life. And part of it is just like making them feel involved in the family, you know, just helping out. It gives them, it gives like kids purpose, you know, when, you know, like when we're changing the twins diapers, River just like wants to be helpful, you know, she's only two and a half. So she's limited in what she can do. But like you can tell she feels involved, right? And so I think part of that is giving kids responsibilities early in life and chores. It's not like to teach them necessarily a work ethic, but it makes them feel purposeful. And it makes them feel like they belong to the family. And I, the way like this clip that Natalie sent me like, you know, framed it, I thought it was like, it made a lot of sense. I mean, we've always thought about doing that, but it kind of framed it in a more positive rather than like, I'm going to make sure, make sure my kids work and things like that. But it also made me realize because I remember seeing and people gave me so much advice on this when right before the twins were born and it was like, what do you do? You know, how do you make River, your toddler, like not feel forgotten? And it was like, oh, have them like help with tasks. And then a lot of people were like, no, don't make them do that because then they, like, they want to be a kid, like make them still feel like they're a kid and not like they have these jobs or something. And so I was really battling with what to do. And then now that we're in it and you see, like this morning, I had all three girls and it went back to sleep and I was breastfeeding both of them. River was sitting beside me. We had hercules on and I needed a burp cloth and I was like, river, I need you to go get a burp cloth. It's in your sister's room on the dresser and she was like, sister's room on dresser and she was walking in and she was like, on the dresser and I'm like, yeah, baby on the dresser and she's like, this one and she comes out. She's like, this one. I'm like, yes, that one. I'm like, okay. I'm like, she's so proud of herself for like finding the right thing. So I feel like definitely. That's awesome. You're kids. Yeah, because at the time, they don't know that they don't know it's a chore or that it's a chore. Well, it also like, it doesn't have to be like Nick, I mean, you have like a bunch of siblings like I like growing up. I had like four older siblings and we were like a blended family. They're my half siblings, but they were like, you know, kids and teenagers when I was growing up. So they were like babysitting, taking care of me like, yeah, all the time. Like that was never like that's just like part of the family dynamic. It's like not even a chore. It's just like you're spending time with your family and on the cleaning stuff. I remember like, oh my God, I would get so mad when I had to like clean baseboards and stuff. But also it was like, I was hanging out with now looking back like everyone's an adult and everyone's moved on and like we all have such different lives now. And I'm like, man, there were days when we were just like fighting over cleaning baseboards and like my like old hell. I mean, ship back in the day, a little house on the prairie style, you had kids to help the farm. You know, like you was like you literally, they were, they were your workers, you know, I'm glad we progress as a society. Yeah, child labor. Don't do that. Don't do that. Yeah, but like there is something to be said about like giving your kids responsibility early in life. So you're taking care of your home, you know, it's less like it's not doing a chore and more just like, you know, making sure your space is nice. And being a kid isn't just about like, I don't know what it is to like, it's not just about having fun. I mean, parenting is like from early stages. I really feel like mine and Natalie's only job is parents is to prepare them for life, you know, to teach them various lessons so that when they're on their own, they can have a successful life on their own when we're not available to be there for them. And I don't think you can start too early to like teach some lessons and, you know, give them a sense of purpose and individual accomplishment. And that's more than just like playing on the playground, you know, and you can do both. All right. Well, continuing on with talking about people named Natalie, Dove, Iris, Nick, we've got live and Natalie from the girls. I'm excited because I actually went to the like debut party at No Boo. I met Chloe. Is that No Boo? Of course. It was kind of iconic. And yeah, I saw all the girls from the cast. I didn't meet anyone except for Chloe, which I mean, not about person to me. No. Yeah. So it was really cool. I feel like the vibes were high, guys. Lovely. Yeah. What was Chloe's vibe? Oh, I mean, she's so kind. She's really just like such a kind person. She took pictures with like literally anybody that asked her, her body was insane. I will say the one person that really stood out from the cast was Natalie. She just exuded like kindness. I don't know how to describe it. Like, I made eye contact with her a few times and she smiled at me. Like, just, and I didn't actually, this isn't some bad, but I showed up like not really knowing the cast. And I was like, wait, whoever that girl is is just so kind. So I was intentional. Yes. Intentional. And like, like, I'm a nobody. I'm just at her event, whatever. And she just like made really nice gestures like multiple times throughout the night where I was like, wait, I don't know who she is, but I'm going to root for her all season. Now, I'm a fan. I'm a follower. You've got your girl. I've got my girl. Well, I think there's just a huge fascination with obviously the Kardashians and the Jenners and that whole, like, group of friends. And this show The Girls is centered around kind of like what it's like to be best friends with some of the most famous people in the world. And to your point, Susie, I didn't really know what to expect when we had live in that year. I was, you know, quite honestly, a little intimidated. I wasn't sure like what they knew about us and were they too cool for us type of thing. But like to your point, like, and you'll get to know them when you listen to this interview with that and live, but some of the most down to earth kind people. It was really just, which is like, I didn't know what to expect, right? You kind of like, this is a show about people who have these very fantastical lives, a lot of privilege, a lot of access to celebrities and just like, you know, just extraordinary lives. And like, what is it like to live in this world? And this is an opportunity obviously to get to know two of these women. And I really enjoyed the conversation that Justin and I have with them. It was, it was a lot of fun. Yeah. My, my favorite part from the show was, honestly, like, I really like Nicole, Nicole has been like, just bringing a lot of fun stuff. And she had this part where she was talking about seeing something on like her, her man's phone and she called herself a find outologist. Same. Yeah. How it's just like, I identify with that. Do you identify as a find outologist? Yeah. I think that if I have an inkling, I think all women are find outologists. Yeah. Exactly. I think you give me, you give me like really FBI, a little edible, a little glass of wine. I'm going to find out. You know what I mean? If I have a gut suspicion. For sure. Social media makes it, I wouldn't say so easy, but a lot easier. They really, because you'll be like talking about it with your girlfriends and you're like, oh my gosh, like, you know, are they doing this? Are they doing that? Where are they? And then the algorithm is like, let me show you everything you want to see. I'll show you the photos that he likes. - I'll show you where you may know. - People you may know. - People you may, oh, I may. This is what they said on threads if you were curious. - Yeah, interestingly. - Tagged photo, yeah. A woman's intuition is best served with the algorithm. - Yes, would you say, yeah? - Well, these are a group of women. There are moms, they are friends. They are fascinating people and they are up next. And following our conversation with Matt and Liv, we are going to dive into the Lindsay Clancy case that has really kind of taken over in terms of the discourse. And if you weren't following a couple of weeks ago, I think everyone has heard it from me. They're following it themselves or heard it from a friend. A lot of fascinating conversations, some dark conversations, but we are gonna try to tackle those conversations, following our conversation with Matt and Liv. And we have a very special guest. Our booker, Angela actually, is gonna join us because while talking about how we were going to, what guests we might book for this case, she was very gracious enough to open up about her own postpartum experiences, something that she dealt a lot with and has a very like, very passionate and very direct take on this case as someone who experienced postpartum depression and anxiety herself. So, following a very light fun conversation with Matt and Liv, we will get into this case and everyone is talking about, so stick with us. Up next, Matt and Liv. Liv, Nat, welcome to the show. - Thank you, nice to meet you. - You're nervous. - You're nervous, are you nervous? - I am a little nervous. - Why are you nervous? - You guys are like, guys are like, - This is the big time though, you have a great show. - No, but you do. - Well, I hope you're not nervous. We're just friends hanging out, having a conversation. I got to start by watching the first episode. - Yeah. - Your name's Nat, my wife's name is Nat. You have a daughter named Dove. - Yes. - We recently have a daughter named Dove. - Dove, I don't know. - Dove and Iris are twins, we're born six-ish. - Are you guys twins? - Iris on the show. - Yes, and next, you will get more. - You're nice, wife's mill name is Joy. And my mill name is Joy. So, we're like, Natalie Joy 'cause we do Natalie. - That's incredible. - Liv, everyone just, and then our best friend's name is Nick. Our best friend's name is Nick, who's also on the show. And you and your wife filmed, Age of Attraction in Van, no? - In Vancouver. - You guys. - Wow. - We're like, oh, we're, why aren't we best friends? - I don't know. - We are now. - Well, congratulations on the show. It's very exciting. - Yeah. - I don't know a lot of people are already talking about it. Like, how does it feel? Like, are you equally excited? Are you nervous? Like, you both have done reality TV before. So, I'm just curious, compared to your previous experience on reality TV, what do you hope is different and what do you hope is the same about this experience? - Yeah, I think one of the main things that, 'cause we've been doing press all week and stuff, that is different is the show we were on before called Wags. We were kind of paired up with Gals that we didn't know. - Okay. - So, with this show, it's actually a group of six friends. Like, authentic friends. There's no like having to pin someone in who has never been around. Like, we've all been around each other 10 plus years. So, that in itself is different. And I think just reality TV has changed a bit since last time. - Yeah, it really has. - You know, we've not been on. We had our own show after Wags with our family. But that was probably 2018-19. I also feel like there's just so much more reality TV. I feel like back like 10 years ago, there was like a few pocket shows. Maybe there was more than that. But like now it seems like there's like so much. - Well, there's these things, right? Like, we're no longer. I mean, the Kardashians have always been, obviously. - Yeah. A very different, read or element. - Totally. - And quite frankly, they've been the pioneers of taking the space seriously where like, you know, I come from the batch there. It was like. - Right. - The butt of a lot of jokes. And still, and still is sometimes. But it is cool to just be a part of this space. - Yeah. - And that's separate. There was, it used to be a clear distinction between like star and reality TV star. - Yes. - And they didn't mix. - And they did not mix. - And it was my 18 and like, be your D team with reality. I felt it was very, but now it's. - They're all the same. - Yeah, I love that. - That's why I feel like this time, if anybody watches, I feel really honored. Honestly, because I'm like, there's so much content. You can watch it everywhere. There's social media. That's just like watching a show all day long anyway. So if anyone actually cares to watch them, like, wow, that's so nice. - Yeah, 100%. We've been having fun doing like, this time around, which is different too, is TikTok. When we are on wags and our own relatively not- - So late to the game. - There was not TikTok. But we're hitting all these trends. And we're like, you know what I mean? - So you're gonna dance it. - We are trying. - You can dance. - Well, no, we've really done the dance ones. But like the fun, cute ones that are like, cheeky were, you're like, mouthing something. - We sound so old. - You know, obviously you were on the wags show, which was really popular when it was on. But even the wags space is like really, like there's. - Wow. - It's taking off, there's a greater fascination. - Totally, yeah. - Again, with the space, call it reality TV, call it influencing just like, people being public figures in personas. - Yeah. - Lifestyles, right? And I think that's honestly what the Kardashians and the genders have really like, they started as like this kind of lifestyle, you know, aspirational. I think women, people look at you women in this group of friends and you guys are the pinnemy of like, I want this life. Is there a lot of pressure around that or is there pressure on authenticity? Like how do you find that balance between showing your true authentic self or do you have pressure to live a certain lifestyle and live a certain type of aspirational style knowing how fans see you women? - I think what's been nice with anyone, not even just in reality TV and stuff, but just with age, you get wisdom. And you kind of grow this, don't give an F vibe, meaning this time around too, we were just like, this is who we are, we were so vulnerable, we were so open, maybe a little too open, we've all been joking, like you really feel like you're in like the girls group chat, which is sometimes vulgar or sometimes maybe low-key even inappropriate, I don't know, but I don't think I feel like so much pressure. I feel like definitely not in myself, like this is who I am, like confident who I am, I hope people like it, I hope people enjoy it, I think you're gonna feel like you're one of the girls watching. But yeah, I don't particularly feel pressure. - Yeah, and I think too, just from being on social media for so long, come a bit numb to the fact that people are watching you, I don't know, it sounds terrible, but it's been so long, and I'm like, wait, what, someone is paying attention, it's like, but that's the real thing, and I don't feel pressure from it. - And how did you ladies become friends with Chloe and the whole family? Because I think there's a lot of fascination behind that, and I think there's just a lot of people like, how do I become part of this group? - Yeah, good enough. When we first moved here to Beyond Wags, we had a makeup artist named Ariel, living with us. He's so talented, and he got the opportunity to do the Kardashians glam, I think it was Kylie and Kim, and that was back in the day when like, an aesthetic Instagram beat was like so cool, and I was really about that life, and kind of, 'cause there's no video. Yeah, the video's really like the one photo without the carousel, yeah. It's also harder now sometimes, so like the dumps, those are curated too. - I know, there's so much work. It just quadruped with the work, where are we doing? - Yes, that's how we found it. Totally, so I think at the time she was wanting to like make her page a bit more curated, and Ariel was like, you should meet Natalie, like she's really good at that, and he's like, Kim's gonna call you, let's see if you like, just chat with you about it and stuff, and I was like, that's normal. - Did it feel like an interview? - I mean, no, she was so nice and normal instantly, and then we started working together, and just because of that, we were texting like daily, naturally, and we just were like fast friends, like it felt like I was just talking to my friend from home, she was so nice and normal, and then very quickly, we all became really good friends. - And then did you bring Liv into the picture? - Well, just so natural, 'cause we were talking every single day, and then she'd invite me somewhere, and then she's with me, and just like, and then obviously they became fast friends, 'cause we're just honestly, like coming from Canada, and being so like family oriented, people always like ask us, and it's like, we felt like when we met them, we felt like we met, like our people were like, oh, this is our tribe, they literally have the same values as us, they view family the same, they treat their siblings the same way we treat our family, and so there's so much similarities that you just couldn't even, like, dream it up, so it was just such a natural fit for us, and we just became like really good friends. - And you two are cousins? - Yes, my moms are sisters. - Okay, and have you always been close, or is that a relationship that has evolved over the years? - No, always, we have so many siblings and stuff that, everyone kind of has a partner, or a pairing almost, even our moms are like best friends, and then our best friends, our brothers are best friends, our sisters are best friends, we're all best friends, we're siblings, you guys have? - There's a lot, but it's just all four. - Four is two. - Yeah. - And then we have other cousins, but that's the core. - I'm curious, what is like maybe the biggest misconception about this friend group, or being friends with the Kardashians and the genders that you feel like either is just untrue, or you find frustrating? - I think kind of just to speak on what I was just like, talking about was just I think people, I feel like I get the feeling that they just think there's something, like unwirled, like they're out of this world, or something, and that they must be something, and it's just like the biggest misconception that there isn't really a misconception, they're so nice, they're so normal, they're so lovely family-oriented, moving to LA, they were the most lovely normal people we've met of a lot of people. So it's just like, yeah, we don't have our family here. So for us, we tell them all the time, they're kind of like a home-based vibe for us, which is very special and you did because we miss our family. - And I'm sure you ladies of LAs is so funny. - It's, yeah. - Are you guys born and raised here? - No, I'm from Southern California. - So we're all implants as they say. - Yeah, like when you, you know, you come here and there's a lot of wannabes and there's a lot of people pretending everyone's a manager or a publicist and it turns out they're not. - They want to know what you do. So it makes a lot of sense that people like the Kardashians and the genders like they don't have to try to be anything they're not. - Yeah. - They don't have to be deceiving and they don't have to over-hype themselves because like everyone has that LAs story of like, someone making themselves feel more important and getting you to trust them and then you realize you're being used. - Yeah. - Is it? - Oh, delete. - Yeah, we've been here for like a decade now but it took us a long time to like, we like, okay, like we think-- - Get our footing for sure. - Because yeah, we just were taken back all the time by all the different personalities and we just were so innocent and like, what? - Very gent, we're very like, oh, what you say is what you mean, right? And we're like, nope. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. - What was maybe your craziest welcome to LAs story? - This was like 11 years ago now and we were still in our party phase and her boyfriend at the time was like, one of the kings of the city. Like he knew everyone, every restaurant, every club. So we just clopped in drinking every day, almost filming wags. We're like, we're out of TV show. We're drinking having fun. So we just hit the ground running out. As far as the story, I'm sure we have some. - What city did you guys move to specifically in LA? - West Hollywood. - Okay. - It's a party area. - Definitely. - Yeah, we're like right on La Sianica basically. A craft alley with the street. - There's obviously a lot of ladies and women out there who think it would be very exciting to meet a professional athlete, marry a professional athlete. What is one of the biggest misconceptions or things that people don't realize if they're out there and like, oh, I hope this happens to me someday. What would you say or like words of advice for anyone who is like, I hope I meet someone who is in the space. - I think as like glamorous as people might think it is, you really are, if you're in a serious relationship with somebody that plays the professional sport, you are like really taking on their career. Like there's no way around it. Like if you want to spend time together, they are like very busy. And so you have to be kind of willing to like really double up with their life. - Travel with them, travel with them. - Yeah, travel with them and stay with them. - And this time away from them, which that's tough. Like, and then you have kids and maybe a team, you get traded, you move, you know, it's, yeah. - What is like a post, a bad loss? - Oh my God. - A game. - Like what is that? Is that, how do you guys handle like a bad loss? - I think it like you would have to be prepared to be, I mean, it depends what the guy wants, right? Some guys maybe like shut off and don't share that part with their partner, but in their relationships, I've been and I usually found myself in the seat of being like sports psychologist most times. Oh, I mean, I played really competitive sports growing up, so I played soccer. So I felt like I was just naturally always talking about that with them and then they always wanted to debrief and it just depends what's really like you have to let them have their space and time to work through it. But yeah, it's definitely is like all about that. Like there's no just like games over and you lost, let's go and maybe. - And as far as the girls show, do you, are you playing personal, like, do you guys come in being like, all right, this is kind of the persona I want to have or like story lines, like, what can people expect by watching this? - I think we kind of like forgot about all that. It's like we had like a meeting at the beginning like with our producers and stuff. Like I'll talk like story line stuff and you're like, wait, what? Oh my god, I forgot about all. - Well, I'm not even storyline. Just like what do you have going on? - That's what I mean, yeah. - For people that aren't on TV. - Yeah, like TV, that's what that means. - You have to have a little prep of like, what do you have coming up? - I don't have a birthday. I just want to have a travel plans, you know? But no, we kind of just go in and being ourselves. - It also happens so fast. - That's a difference of this show, we'll say too, is such a quick turnaround. It was like a six week filming, which at least for a week come from, that is like not normal. Usually you have at least a couple of months. - A couple of months. - Yeah, sometimes wags was like eight months, it's crazy. But it was super fast for us and even the crew to shoot, like we had two different crews. So it was a different way of filming for us even as well. But no, we kind of like, you know, we like to at least give our all. Like we're not the type we're gonna sit. We know cameras are there. We're not gonna sit in a bump in a log. But no, we kind of just ourselves, what's going on in our life at real time. - Has it ever like, whether it's filming this show or wags has the drama on the show? Like how have you guys worked? I mean, I'm assuming it's like, you know, real drama. - Yeah. Like how do you balance between what we see on camera and what happens on camera versus like when the cameras are off? - Yeah. - Like it has it, have you had to like mend and fix relationships and have you ladies ever like got into it where it was almost like, I don't know, I need a break. - For us, I think just because we are such like, sister vibes, it's like, whatever, like love you. - We might make bigger, but it's like, sister's where you come from. - Yeah, it's say F off and then go watch maybe together. - It's never like that deep. But I feel like this environment in this friend group, like any friend group, I feel like being in the pressure cooker environment of filming and just spending way more time together that you normally would never spend together. Just like obviously breeds like conflict naturally unintentionally and getting to know people on a new level. - Totally. - And I feel, yeah, so good. - Yeah, like obviously we're best friends and family and then our other girlfriend Nicole. Naturally, we were on wags with her. We've been friends with her for 15 years, whereas some of the other guys, we've been friends for 10 years, maybe not on that deep of a level. So then come together us six in that pressure cooker. And like you said, even if it's closest to us, like you usually don't spend that much time together in days and consecutive and traveling. So you find out people's quirks and how they do things, how they work, how they fly, how they travel. You know, so it did have in real time a lot of things popping up where we are all kind of like, oh, oh, oh, and like, as far as working through it, like I have to say, I can't promise. - I can promise. - I'll leave that there for you. - I mean, honestly, that's my favorite part of like the girls 'cause like, I think a lot of people are fans with the Kardashians as they should be. But my favorite part was always like the twins or like the supporting family members, I would say, like friends that have become family. - Yeah. - And you guys got that and got to stand on your own. Was there a little bit of pressure of like, how do we do this without the Kardashians? Which I think you guys probably know you could do it anyways. - So for us, you know, being on wigs and having your own show however long ago, we kind of decided, during COVID I just had my daughter, we were like, let's just like, we're both deathly introverted. - You both are? - Yes. So we needed to like, hypernate for a long time to like get our like energy back. And we just thought, maybe reality TV isn't for us. And a lot of people like production companies had approached us. And we just were like, oh man, like just didn't feel good, feel right. And then during the fires last year, we were staying with our friend Nicole. And the wigs reruns were on Hulu. And we were like, you know what? Like all our fans really want us to go back. Like, should we? We're just like toying with it. We're like, what should? Maybe we should. But we were like, do we do it alone? Like, what do we do? And then we were at Tatum's birthday party at Chloe's last year. And we saw Iris and Lincoln, Kadeja there and are like a light bulb went off. Okay, do you guys want to do this with us? You know, we had kind of some creative ideas. We had for how we wanted it shot and cameras. We wanted to use and stuff. And they're like, we love this. Like amazing. And they had other stuff going on too. They were possibly going to do. But I think just kind of like us, it felt right to do it together. And then whenever one was like, yes, I like just went over to Chloe. And was like, hey, so what's this? And she was like, hell yeah. So the idea was born from you guys. Yeah. And then she was like, I love this. And then she's just amazing. And then before you knew it, we were on a call with Bulu. And the vision was just like coming to life. So yeah, it was just really exciting and really kind of in alignment because it happened. I also love that it's kind of like gossip girl vibes. Like Chloe's like, not necessarily there, but she's narrating what that's like. Yeah, that's what we were thinking originally. We had like sex in the city like as a inspiration. So it's really fun because we wanted that and we shot it that way for the sizzle. And then somehow we started doing interviews again. And we were like, wait, what? We didn't want the interviews in there. And then they ended up taking them out later. Yeah, so it ended up being how we wanted it to. But we don't know how that's going to read. But I think people might like it. It's a good change. I loved it. I was obsessed. Does Chloe have a lot of decision making power in terms of what we get to see or not see? Or is that more like network? I think Chloe's queen bee. So I think I mean, I don't know. I don't know either. But I'm sure she could imagine if Chloe wants something. Probably could be done. As she should, but I think she should. I don't think so. I would think, but I don't know. I have been like pride to be like, hey, so can you get whatever you want? But I think so. I'd imagine she has a good relationship with everyone at Hulu and, you know, yeah. Obviously, when it comes to being a public figure influencer, there's a whole kind of debate and conversation around including kids and things like that. And it's something like, now and I, you know, we don't, I just like, we don't fucking know. Like, every day is like, should we show you? I know, I know, right? The shame and then not like. The shame, okay, don't need to be sort of in more shaming. I know. So, it's like just moms are being shamed. Totally. Yeah, it's a bunch of non-moms. Totally. And then you get shamed if you don't talk about it 'cause now, are you even a mom like ignoring your kids? No, it's crazy 'cause like being a new dad, like the thing I'm the most passionate about is like being a dad and like supporting my partner. And it's a topic that like every time I want to talk about, I'm always like trying to thread a needle and it's like, I don't want to offend any of you. Yeah, I know. And I want to talk about this, how this worked for me, like over, literally over the week and now I got PTSD. - Oh no. - Because like, She had, you know, I don't know. - Right, yeah. - Fans are like, trolls are trolls. - Yeah. - And she posted this video, it was like, we had the net, we had the net. - Yeah, yeah. - She's out there. - Oh yeah. - And she just, like, she loves going watching moments 'cause like, there's so many special moments in your mind. - I know, I have them all saved some. - Yeah, right. I guess we didn't sleep train. I don't really know what that even means. So she was like, yeah. And she was like, she just wanted to talk about how she's really enjoyed these moments of like, going to bed with River. And then she turned, you know, it turned into a whole, like, apparently she's mom shaming the sleep trainers, it was a whole thing. And she just wanted to talk about her experience. And it's just like, why can't parents just talk openly about what's work for them, what's not work for them? Because as you ladies know, like, being a parent is like, there's always best practices and it's super helpful to hear. But like, every kid's different, every situation's different, that changes and it's just like, every parent just wants to be like, I could use all the help I could get. - I'm just doing the best they can, obviously. - Yeah, cut. - How do you guys like come up with those decisions and, you know, like, with being as, you know, prominent and, you know, as popular as you are, then, you know, the more fans you have, the more critics you have, how do you manage that aspect? Because I'm sure you ladies have had to deal with that in like, times 10. - For me, I, it's hard to say. But like, I've only had really kind of pictures of my daughter online and I've really toyed with that 'cause there's like a whole group of people that are like, oh my god, there's so many perverts out there. Like, you shouldn't have pictures of a little girl online and then I totally like, I understand that. I agree with that and I'm like, oh my gosh, I should it. But then I'm like, this is also my life and I'm so proud of her and like, my life is her. So then I was like, it feels maybe not authentic, not sharing. - And then like, we're living in a world where you can't share a sweet photo with your daughter 'cause there's, you know what I mean? I also don't want to live in that life. - We take a picture and it's like, we kind of, at this point, we have, we, the first year we just shared whatever the twins were kind of the same thing. And then we kind of like, we don't want to show a reverse phase and then we take a, there's all these great moments that we want to share, but we feel like we made this decision. So if we go back on that decision and we don't know if it's the right decision, like we don't fucking know. - I know. - And then it's just like, you know, now she, funny enough, like a month ago, she accidentally posted, like in her stories and she got really upset about it. And I was like, almost glad that it happened 'cause it made me almost realize like why we are doing what we're doing in terms of not posting and it's not about not sharing. 'Cause kind of to your point, like, if people want to see what our kids look like, sadly. - I know. - Like they're gonna figure it. There's cameras everywhere, right? But it's more like, I guess we decided like, we're fine with our fans having a relationship with us. It just gets weird when people come up to you and go, "Oh, that is that river." And that's kind of the little, like, and they mean well. But it's like, that gets a little uncomfortable. - Sometimes we get recognized like through my daughter first and I'm like, "Oh, that's so hilarious." - Jesus celebrity now. - Yeah. So yeah, it is tricky. And I feel like my opinion on it changes kind of regularly, but even approaching the show, it happens so fast for us. I didn't really have time to really think through or decide exactly how I felt about it. So you see me like in real time, especially episode one, kind of finding my footing with that. But yeah, she's on the show. She's not in storylines, you know, but she's there because it's weird because I'm trying to be authentic and my whole life is with her like every spare moment I have. She's with us like all the time. So it'd be weird to film a show and not have her on it. And a lot of the other girls have their kids on it. So I didn't want her to be left out. But yeah, she's just not like in story. - I'd be getting any advice from like Chloe or Cam about that in terms of how to handle that 'cause obviously they have to deal with that as well. - I mean, I think for them, it's like inevitable. Their life is just so public. I don't know how much if they tried to not like, it's like, okay, it's just happening anyways. So I'm just, I'm still learning that. - Challenge. - And that's the thing. There's no right answer to teach their own, yeah. - Yeah, and I think it's just important to say no one should shame anybody else for their parenting decisions or choices. 'Cause that's just-- - You wish that would be obvious, right? - It's being a bad parent or doing that. - No, it's crazy. - It's always just like the moment it's, well, I was saying 'cause like we travel a lot. And real life is, that's not real life. Real life is, you know, if Natalie saw you, you would be like, you got this support. It's always support. It's always mom's like validating each other, picking each other up. You never see that in real life. You only see it online. - Yeah, and I always wonder like, who are the people that just like, are they just alone in bed and just like, you don't even know what you do. - You can't fathom, like typing a mean comment. I can't fathom, I just can't, I don't know. - Well, it's such a low vibration thing to do, so you have to remember that when you're reading it, like when it's coming to yourself, you've got to remember that. - They're not. - That came from such a low vibration. - Low vibration is exactly what it is. - You know what it means? So like why let it into your space? If it makes you feel bad, it came from a bad spot. - And I forget, 'cause what's your relationships that is? Are you both in relationship? - We're both single. - We're both single. And is that gonna be a big part of the season of you guys navigating and dating life? - It is. - It's a little bit of dabbling. - You have to say boys, they're just a little bit. - Yes, I've been dated literally since my daughter was born. - Is that like an active choice or just the business? - It is an active choice. Yeah, active choice. I've realized which I talk with this on the show and it might be boring for some people, but I did discover like I create the same pattern in relationships, I'm old enough to like spot my patterns. And I definitely am an avoidant. So like after a period of time I tend to turn off in relationships. - I was just the one year. - The one year, Rick. - Yeah, yeah. - I think she's one year. - Why is it, why a year, why is it taking me? - I mean, it doesn't always take a year for me. Trust me, it can happen a lot faster than that. - It's been a little before and a little after. - What is your most ridiculous, Rick? - I mean, I don't know. If something just like biologically happens in me and the poor soul could do like, the most average thing. - Is that a specific thing? - No, I think. - I have learned that the average, at least with my wife, is a general cloniness. - But she still loves you. - For sure. - You know what I mean, that's different. I'm talking like this. - She tells the story that we were driving one time and I hit a bump and I didn't even realize this, but like I. - Lovitated. - I came off. - And she cowed on manly of you. - And I, and I think I, we were in a good place in our relationship. - So real though, like I see what she's saying. - We were on our honeymoon. - Girl, let's get the craziest day. - We were on honeymoon and this is after we became aware of what would Ictor. And I attempted to hop out of the pool. - Oh no. - And I slipped. - Oh no. - Now Nick, I can see you. - No, I know, I was, I'm sorry. - Immediately I was like, like now. - You should have just went to the bottom. - No, I do things, and I'm like. - The bottom of the pool. - Like I know, I've become so full of it. - That helps though. If you call the ICO, that just helps. - It really is the ICO for sure. - Don't, I just know that just, you didn't see that. - Anything to meur. - Yeah. - You could bring up the example. If you can throw a ball better than him. - Absolutely. - Kind of makes sense. - If you could bring faster than him. - We played sports growing up. So, and I have threw all the brothers. She has an older brother. Our dad's played sports. That makes sense. If I can throw a baseball. And he can't, I'm sorry. - No, that's an absolute name. - I mean, everybody's different, right? But we do tend to be attracted to like an alpha, like masculine male. That's just our preference. Okay. That's our preference. So in that genre of man that we like. - Yeah, if I can run faster than you. I could throw a ball better than you. And you throw it like Tom Cruise. And like, it is top gun. Oh my dad always made this reference. 'Cause so. - Oh, there was like a girl. - Well, no, it's hilarious watching actors play sports. Because you can really tell. - You can tell the ones who did it. - Right. So yeah, just all those things. Like I'm not going, oh, damn. Daddy, like you're so hot. But I just, you know, I don't know. I think that's fine. - I think that's fine, bro. - That's a preference. I think that's a real one. - So what are your green flags? - Green flags, family person. - Family person. Some of you could see being a good dad. Just straight up kind. You know, I don't like people that are rude to like, a server, or Uber driver. - Especially in LA too. - Yeah, I just, I keep all those. 'Cause those are the things that like matter. People think you don't see and like, I don't like that at all. That, that, oh, sorry, that's an ik. - Someone that has a healthy relationship with their parents, especially their mom, I mean, like a healthy one. - Emotionally mature, it's nice. - No, it's funny. I have a, I guess a call my friend. He's a friend. (laughing) I often tell me he's a horrible person. (laughing) He would, you know, he was your club promoter kind of like, you know, guy and just always had a different girl. - I was settling down, tight, you know. - And we're on time, we were out. And he was just talking so much shit about his mom. - Yeah, no. - And I was like, oh, this all makes a lot of sense. - Yeah, yeah. - Like, it's like, you got, you should unpack that. - Totally. - I was like, you need to get therapy. - Totally, yeah. - You shouldn't talk about your mom that way. - Totally. - Any type of like self-development or therapy is definitely a green flag. Like the fact they've done that on their own without a woman like initiating it for them, that's like, wow. - And being a single mom, you know, obviously there's a lot of women out there who are moms who, you know, have a lot of insecurities about feeling desired or are they gonna find someone who's gonna accept the fact that they are moms, is that something you also have felt? - No. - And what advice would you have then for the moms out there who have that kind of internalized in security, how can they get to a place like you where you're just proud, I'm a mom, I'm owning it, and I feel really good about that. - I don't know, I feel like that kind of plays in, to be honest, the avoidant in me. Like in a way to start and I think that's why often I get in the situations. I'm in I do have a really good Self-concept and I think that's from like my dad growing up like I just have never questioned myself worth So for me hat, which I'm very thankful. I know that's not a common thing but for me having this like amazing daughter My life is so much fuller more beautiful. It just doesn't even enter like my brain that that would be a or an Stuff like her name. She loves that. It's a good name. It is a good name, right? Yeah, I think just when you go at their dating no matter what you're You know whether you have a kid or don't have a kid. It's just not It's not about thinking about what someone else would want You know what I mean like why would you care? Oh someone's gonna care that I have a kid It just should be like how you feel about yourself and just be confident I know it's so much easier to say than being as high-profile as your ladies are is it difficult to meet people like how do you How do you meet people? Do you need to get set up? Yeah, I don't know. I tried actively, but you could yeah, I mean I'm somewhat dabbling because I would like to have children So I got to meet someone to do that and Yeah, that's true. I know always but I for me I would love to do with partner Yeah, I'm very like old school traditional my dad's pastor growing up like I have this like vision in my mind of But yeah, I think it's a little tough But I am the girl who's like I'm not gonna put down. You know you hear women go. It's so hard to day in LA Or like it's so hard to this or that or put down man. I'm very optimistic. I feel like I can meet him in a DM I can meet him in your office out there. I can meet him on a plane like I can meet him in Vegas You can meet him in a club when people like you know, I meet him in a club I could because I'm there. I don't go often like at all But I went that night. Maybe he went that night because a buddy's in town or something so I'm optimistic It's it's not really going right now Listen, it's tough. It's Tell us part about dating right and I didn't find my person to lay it in life is You know is having high standards and then also being patient. Yes, like those two don't go together They do not It's like I you know, I talked to so many people dating it's like I've been on like 15 dates and I didn't like any of them like great Yeah, great you're not supposed to I don't know how you walk into a place and go There's one in every bar. Yeah, definitely. No, they're a gem for a reason they're exactly I just feel like I rather be single for the rest of my life and then be with somebody that is not like a good fit Like I just forgot it like I just oh that's the other thing and like you just said nail in the head is like of course I could have by now. I'm sure do that but I would feel like I would be settling It wasn't the right fit and I do feel like I'm doing so much self-work on myself as of late like more than ever that I'm just preparing myself to be the best version of me when I meet him I honestly it sounds like oh, but I know when I meet him It's gonna be like yeah done. Okay. Yeah, kids merit. Yeah Well, that's it. That's how I honestly my heart Universal bringing you the right. Yeah, so I'm not really like trip And I spent a couple years being like oh, you know I think it's my friends are having kids and I want them I'm a panic vibes, and I feel like I maybe it was even giving off that energy Yeah, and I've really just settled in like I'm focused on my work my family myself my health and I think he's just gonna show up sooner than later You made a comment about his like There's a lot of obviously discourse on the internet about like it's just fun to hit on men these days Oh, yeah, and certainly men deserve a lot of criticism of course their way Maybe I'm biased because I'm a guy. I just it feels like that discourse has like Got into a point where it's not helpful to anyone because again like when it comes to relationship You're just one half of the equation and everyone has flaws like how have you been able to made a Main to tell someone it's like a weird question how you've been able to maintain a positive On man given that it's like it's so easy to like your man fucks up and you're like you're a gaslighting narcissist piece of shit You're like I'm all and it's just as opposed to like yeah, maybe fucked up and I think I know I just feel like when that like Era started on social media. It was I'm like the worst person for it because I already get thick so fast And it really kind of fueled my like yeah, I don't need one forget it like they suck and like who needs them kind of not actually But do you know what I mean? I like resonated a little bit with it and then I feel like now I'm in the place where I'm like hey hold on. I need to like reevaluate The values that I'm like looking for and like look at my parents are still together. They've married I don't know 40 50 almost 50 years 48 almost 15. Sorry. I'm a dad But I'm just now starting to like really look into like like why and how my dad was such a good dad and just I was gonna say as I told her you like value different things and I just think I appreciate Different things in men now that I'm older and when I look for a partner now. I'm looking for different things You know what I think and I say that I just say that more so in like humanizing like the It's when oftentimes have this pedestal thing or a thing they've always dreamed of or whatever it is And then you live enough life and you're like they're never gonna live up to that because it's in your own brain right but like I just feel like for me I'm now humanizing like man. That sounds terrible But like you know what I mean like I'm like wow I get conditioned like you said a really big up swing of this like manhater vibes in it I don't like men out there and we have good men in our family or dads or brothers or cousins and in our friends like come on I get it Sometimes like you said if someone's cheating and well not being great But I'm not gonna go out there and have this negativity towards men I want to meet a great man and a great partner. I don't think that's the best way to go about it being like I hate men Like if I were to ask your dad for advice being a dad of three young girls. What what would you tell me? Oh my gosh, you'd be like we call him chief hell grow He was a chief at the firehouse and he is the man. My uncle Jim is the best. Oh, I don't even know what would he say my god He is the most patient person you'll ever meet is very protective Yeah, like I've had boyfriend's banished from my life in high school really banished and I was like so like why aren't you calling me back? Like what's happening? And then I found out like months later that they had a visit from my dad Justified when you know. Oh, yeah, they were totally serious. He was a guardian angel Totally. I think like you said he did a really good job at self-concept both of our dads to it But yeah, I mean that makes a lot of sense because I think about like all I really want to teach my daughters is to believe in themselves That comes from you, you know And they're capable of anything and what I don't know what their hopes and dreams are gonna be I just want them to believe that they can accomplish them and their first relationship with the man will be with you remember So yeah, yeah, I'm big on I'm big on that and then like you know It's just like you want to have it's like you want to be have boundaries and be strict but not like two strict Right, like I want I want them to be able to choose for themselves and just kind of know Consequences, you know like and be able to own those mistakes and learn from them. Yeah But yeah, it's it's been fun so far. It's really but yeah, that's a lot of fun. I think you and I will do great You guys will do great your partnership what I've seen online. You guys look like a great team That's a thing. It's a team the fact that you've been like just trying and you care like that It's such a huge like head start and race that we we all like Don't really like understand that a lot of that's like a big head start. Just I am. It is surprising Hearing and how invested I can tell already that you are in the questions that you're asking Fun, you know like it's fun to you know this morning like we we've chosen not to do the night nurse thing Maybe we're psychos, but like it's been a great memory, but like I woke up at five now I wasn't feeling the best she was sleeping with River So I just fed the twins my I let her sleep, but like it ain't it's rewarding like it is not like a llama hero It's more like I do I get personal satisfaction from it So it's a selfish thing, but you know if not mostly women listen to the show, but like I wish more men would embrace How it can make them feel by just kind of showing up for their people in a way that it does seem like some men don't fully embrace Yeah, we say like even in my sister who's here like we women love the masculine energy We want to feel taken care of we do want to feel that the man's got it at least us. We do I'm speaking for me by like I Feel like as the generations are going on. There's not as much like masculine like do you know I'm masculine energy out there It's but I feel like to like what he's saying like doing things that maybe traditionally we're more like a feminine role like helping with the kids No, because he's taking control and my dad was always like Yeah, taking care of your family. This means taking care of your family. It doesn't necessarily mean like My dad cooked growing up. He's still to the state grocery shops for my mom. Like it's like I mean Yes, that's a man that a man's got it is more or less than I mean There's nothing more rewarding as a father or husband to say I got it. I got it Yes, no matter what it is and when we love that my love it. Yeah, so you're doing good Are we gonna be able to see any fun dates or dating stories in the season some messy drama? The speed dating in general is or not blind date. Yeah, yeah, did you did you have to see the episode? We saw the first episode Okay, yeah, I wouldn't really know what's in it. Who was it like they hooked him up at the x x x x x x Yes, I was like oh my god, I don't know if you could tell cuz I love that by the way Yeah, by the way, as an introverted person did not seem introverted, okay, they had to turn it on okay So I say every introvert knows I think it's not exhausting Yeah, I think it's what am we were like - Yeah. - Introverted as F, but when you're out, I'm at the top of the party, yeah. So being on a date, and I'm such a good flirt, I think. I'm just like, I'm a Leo, I'm flirting, and I can turn it on. And I enjoy it, and he was so fun to be with on the date, but I was just like shocked at who it was. But yeah, I can turn it on, like you just exhausted. Like you said, at the end of the day, you're like, - Did you know they were watching you in wigs? - No, and my eyes are bad. - I was like, I did have contact. - So there's a good vision around you. - Blur vision. So even I had no idea. I was shocked. I was like, you mother. He is a very good catch, by the way. He's a very good dad. He's so handsome, he's so kind, he's so nice. I like him a lot. I don't tune in, because. - I'm ready to watch, yeah. - Never know. - Yeah, well, I thought we would play at the just, not even a game, but a little round robin before we really just come. - Cat, come around robin. - What's one word to describe your relationship with your castmates, Malika? Oh, my God, Nick. Complicated. - Complicated? - Kadeja. - Cool. Yeah, cool, fun. - Iris. - Well, me and Iris, it's a little bit different than you guys. So, yeah, me and Iris, I guess it's a bit heated. - Oh. - By association heated, because we're family. - Nicole. - Bestie. - Family. - And then Chloe. - Bestie. (laughing) - I mean, obviously she's like the matriarch of this show. Do you, if you were mad at Chloe? - Yeah. - How, would you feel as comfortable communicating her frustrations with Chloe as you would say you would, okay? - Yes, yeah. - She has to come about it first, but. (laughing) - She's like us, so she's introvert queen. - Yeah, she is. - We're exactly the same. - So we have us are very similar that way. - We have like an understanding that we don't even need to say something sometimes, but when we do, we talk very well with each other and have us shout out and yeah, she's great. She's the best. - Oh, wait, I heard you guys, your friends have some really on a TV. Did you watch the ultimatum? - I don't think we know anybody on that. I don't think we know anyone, but we are fans of it. - That'd be weird to me. - And we watched your guys' show that you hosted. You guys, it's okay. - A great attraction. - That was a great, I love the concept. When we turned it on, we're like, wait a sec, I think that's van or whistler. And then we found out it was, but you guys did great. - All that to say in Canada like years ago before it was like trending on social media or anything, we were like two lunatics living in our farm town and we were like, we're gonna be on reality to be on E and we were like, wait just a sec at the time and everyone's like, yeah, a cute story. Like, we made vision worse. - And we're like, no, really we are. We like cut our heads and put them on celebrities and put an e-symbol on the middle of board. We put American money 'cause we're Canadian. - We put everything. - And we just, our parents like saw us doing it and they're like, oh yeah, go for it. - We screwed up. - And we were at our restaurant that way and that's 'cause we were just verbally big. - Oh yeah, we're gonna show on E. - Yeah, we're gonna be on E. - And they're like, sure girls, 'cause at that time it was kind of like, woo hoo. - Yeah, it really was. - Because it was before Instagram or stuff, too. - Yeah, a lot of stuff doesn't say, yeah. - More than anything, but I think feel like manifestation is just like following through with your dreams. - And a blind fate. - A blind fate. - Most people just don't have the guts to do it. - Yeah, or the delusion. And you gotta just be doing it. - You do have to be. - You do, like a little like. - Well, we did sound nuts. - We were willing to have everyone laugh at you. - It's so specific though. - Yeah, you have to be willing to fight through it and figure it out and fail a few times. - Oh yeah, totally, totally. So yeah, when they call, they were like, oh yeah, there's gonna show on E. Like, do you guys wanna be a part of it? It was like, oh, we already knew. - Yeah, we're waiting for this call. - Yeah, and they're like, finally. - We don't know, it's just a pilot. We're like, oh no, it's getting picked up. - It's, yeah. - And they're like, what? - That's all seasons. - Yeah, that is show we've done like a pilot for, we have it knowing. And maybe with this somewhere like, oh no, we're good. And it's been good so far. - Yeah, what are you manifesting now? What's on the board? - Season two, but I also feel like we kinda have it with that blind faith, but season two would be great 'cause we enjoyed it. - Oh, totally. - I feel like we have so much more to say and show. And then our hair extension company, Harlock Hair. We're in the process of moving it to the US, but with tariffs and stuff, it's a bit of a doozy. But we just are manifesting that goes well and excels and we enjoy it and we're really passionate about that. And then I'm low-key always manifesting my hobby, you know. - Yeah, I'm manifesting healing for myself, so I'm not an avoidant anymore. I can grow my family in a healthy way. - Is it hard not to compete with each other as friends? Being as successful and as high-profile as you all are? - No, I don't compete. I've always been since high school. Like if I sniff compete, I'm like, I don't like that energy. And again, same with Kim and Chloe and all of them. When we met them, it was just like so refreshing that there is no ego and that's just like, oh my gosh. And we personally am a really big like meditator. And I feel like I've had a lot of ego deaths over the last decade especially. And that's even why I didn't even want to necessarily go back into this space. It's just like, I don't really like need it, care for it, whatever. So I feel like I'm entering it in a different spirit and like head space. So yeah, it is interesting to see everyone navigate. Navigate the cameras going up and yeah. Some things were shocking, some things. Yeah, it's been a lot like I said. It's been a lot to digest. - I'm excited to keep watching. - Still, we're glad to do that. - It's a great show. It's on Hulu for anyone who wants to find it. But it's out now. So check it out. I don't think I need to tell people to watch it. I think I feel like-- - Do you feel okay? 'Cause you actually watch a lot of TV. - I watch it all. - Yeah, do you? - Probably with your wife. She probably drags you. - There are worse jobs. - Yeah, I know. - I know. - You know, feeding some twins, you have it on. - Yeah, that's true. Okay, so after watching you feel like what you saw of ours, you're like locked in? - I feel like the Kardashians and Chloe know what they're doing. I feel like, I mean, everyone loves aspirational. - Yeah. - Like it's, and obviously your group of friends and you women are, it's just, it's a fascinating life. There are so many elements of you women. It's just the friendships you have, the interesting people you day, your successful business women. There's something for everyone in terms of aspiring to be. And it's just, everyone likes seeing a group of friends have fun and have a little drama. - Yeah, yeah. - A little bit of a team spill. - I think it'll be good. - Thank you for coming. - Yeah, thanks guys. - That's great. - You should appreciate it. - Yeah. - All right. - Thank you. (laughs) - Angela, welcome to the show. - Thank you. - I bet when we, when you came on to the team, you never thought you'd be sitting on this couch in there. - Nope. (laughs) - Never. - Is this your first podcast? - No, I've been on podcast, but only to discuss my career and to help other people get into the industry, but never to talk about my personal experiences in life. - Well, we very much appreciate you coming on. 'Cause I know obviously this is personal for you and obviously a very sensitive topic. I was telling the audience that when we were, as a team discussing like how we wanna talk about this case, you were very gracious to talk about your own personal experiences with postpartum. So, and I think you shed some very interesting light on it as someone who, you know, Nally and I obviously in the postpartum phase of the twins right now, but thankfully, Nally's experience and our experience has been different than, you know, with so many moms and families have to deal with when it comes to postpartum. But before we jump into that, I do wanna just like this case is really taking on a life of its own and it's created so many just conversations that are affecting like families, couples are breaking up. It's really, I mean, it's kind of scary just how I guess the internet not too shockingly will kind of warp what is the actual stories of this case. Our friend, Emily Baker, who actually we asked to come on, but she's like, she doesn't do two things. She doesn't like to talk about ongoing cases and she obviously doesn't like to talk about cases that involve children, which is what's going on here. I remember when Emily and I were just started working together, I was just asking her questions about the true crime space and just, you know, what is it like to cover it? You know, pros and cons, things to look out for. And I remember her telling me how, you know, one of the things about true crime that can get real messy and real dark, real fast is that when cases that are ongoing like this one, we're watching the court and the trial in real time. Is that 100% of the time when these cases are going on in the true crime space? Is that there's always a group of people that will advocate for the innocence of whoever's on trial, regardless of what the case is. You know, there's just always these fan theories and they really take on a life of its own. And sadly, what always happens is that people connected to these families and connected to these cases, they're the ones who start being accused of the crime. And regardless of what happens out the trial, like no matter what, when it's a true crime and it becomes like popular and it's on the court TV and you have Nancy Grace or whoever it is talking about it, you're always having a large group of people online, making just random accusations, you know, to people who are deeply affected by these horrific acts. And it's just like one of those things that I think we just always have to be mindful of. And clearly that's going out in this case, 'cause you have a lot of people accusing the husband of potentially being guilty of this crime. I think it's important to mention, as far as a trial, like the husband's not on trial, he's not being investigated by the police. And even Lindsey's own defense is not arguing whether she actually committed this act or not. What they are arguing is whether she is capable of being held responsible. Does she go to jail or does she go to a mental health facility, but they're not debating whether she did it or not. But when you ask the average person, following this, it's amazing how many different versions and scenarios and theories that exist out there. It is really, it is quite scary. It is, it's very scary. I think it just, it points to how the internet can just take something and run with it in a thousand different directions. Like you said, they're not arguing whether she did it or not, but there's so many theories. And honestly, even as a consumer, like consuming TikToks and stuff, I'm like, I find myself falling into the trap of like, Oh, wow, wait, there's actually some, what we have to remember, especially with these again, these trials that are ongoing and then, you know, we have the ability and some of these cases to watch the trial happen is that it's her, it's her legal team. It's her legal team's job to create doubt, to create reasonable doubt, to advocate for her. It's literally, you know, even if a lawyer doesn't believe their clients innocence, it's literally their job to find, find that. And to your point, Mary, you have people online and, you know, true kind detectives and fans, like taking this information and kind of metastasizing it and turning it into something it's absolutely not. I mean, I was talking to a friend who's following this case. And I was like, what do you think about this? And they were convinced the husband did it. And they watched the case. They were like, I've watched the case, you know, and you haven't watched the case. So I know more than you. And they were just absolutely convinced that the husband was, has done it. So you have one pocket of people who thinks that that she didn't do at all, that she should be exonerated because apparently the husband or someone else did it. And then you have another group of people who acknowledged that she did it. And, and yet are. It seems like they're going a bridge too far for advocating for, for Lindsey in supporting her, thinking it's like they're supporting the awareness of, of, of postpartum. And it's just like, where do we draw the line? I mean, at some point, maybe the system failed Lindsey, maybe society failed Lindsey, but we still as a society have to hold people accountable for these evil acts. I mean, the war hero who comes home and murder his family. And that, I mean, that, I think that happened this year. He might suffer from PTSD. And, and maybe we have an awareness of how we shouldn't leave our heroes behind. And maybe we need to do more for our vets. But that doesn't mean that these people shouldn't face accountability for their, their heinous acts. Absolutely. And it seems like people are just like, you know, not threading that needle in a way that's kind of scary. You have, anyways, it's, it's, it's, it's kind of crazy. I have a question for the moms. I know there's a difference between postpartum depression and then postpartum psychosis, which is what is going on in the trial. When you're experiencing postpartum depression, are you aware? And I'm sure it's different for everybody, but maybe in your experience, like, are you aware that that's what's happening? Or are you just feeling like an overwhelming sense of? Yeah. So it's, that's a great question. Okay. Yeah. So in my case, I mean, I can't speak for every woman, obviously, but in my case, I had my daughter when I was 29 years old. So a fairly young age and my whole life, all I wanted to do was be a mom. Like that. I carried around a baby doll, played house, you know, that was, that was my goal in life. Had a super supportive family and husband. And I had this baby. And right after I had her, I would cry a lot. And my mom said, Oh, these are the baby blues. Yeah. So that felt normal, right? Everybody was saying you're going to experience this sadness sometimes, which doesn't make sense because the happiest thing in your life just happened, right? Like, you have this beautiful, healthy baby. And I think what happened with me is it progressed over a period of six months. Oh, wow. And so after a while, you know, I recognize, like, this is no longer just baby blues. The hormones are out of my system. Something's really wrong. I would talk to friends about this, and friends didn't necessarily understand what I was going through because some of them didn't have babies, right? Other ones didn't experience this. And I, this was 2008. So it wasn't like it is now where there's just an influx of information at your fingertips. And so I finally went to the doctor and I said, Look, I'm having these intrusive thoughts about dropping my baby and her bleeding. And I'm horrified by it. And I'm squeezing her tight. And I can't sleep. And I'm checking her pulse. And if she's breathing every night and I can't eat. And I just feel suffocated. And my doctor said, Yeah, you have postpartum depression and anxiety, which is, you know, scary to hear as a new mom because I had never been diagnosed with anything like that before and didn't understand what was wrong with me and why that would happen to me. But one of the most important questions I asked, which is really interesting, like hearing about this case is, how do I know that I'm not going to hurt this baby? You know, like, what's the difference between me and the mom that does end up hurting their baby? It does drop them or does do these awful things. And she said, the difference is that you understand it's wrong. And you don't want to do it. You know, even though you're having these thoughts, you know they're wrong. And with psychosis, you actually think, if you hurt your baby, if you kill your baby, everything will be better. And that was a really big moment for me. Fortunately, I hate to say, but like it does make you feel a little bit better in that. Like, yeah, no, I don't think anything's going to be better. You know, I just need help. Yeah. And I was so fortunate to have access to some of the best medical care and family members and the most supportive husband ever. But, you know, sometimes things I think other people don't end or like they slip through the cracks. Yeah. You know, it's such like, it's a complicated thing to talk about because it's like, it's obviously not, it's not like an easy thing to admit those feelings, you know what I mean? I felt like a complete failure. Yeah. Angela, I'm curious as someone who's obviously experienced this and I think you kind of discerning the difference between as hard as it is to like talk about that question you asked. I think it's an important one because you're seeing right now, there seems to be too many people not separating what Lindsay did to her children and the acknowledgement that maybe we need more awareness around postpartum depression. You have moms like making montages of these very difficult moments of being a parent and then trying to relate to Lindsay and I think for a lot of people, that's a bridge too far. Right. And it's almost as like a theme that I've seen is if nothing else, there's just a lot of loneliness. I mean, there's a lot of loneliness in this world today, but there's just a lot of loneliness with moms who, you know, feel very alone. You know, their husbands are working out of necessity. They don't maybe have the family in town. You know, we just have a different kind of culture where it's just become less of a village. Why do you think there are, there is a level of people trying to attach? It's like what I don't get is Lindsay shouldn't be a symbol, right? If, you know what I'm saying? Like she did an evil thing and I think we have to be very careful attaching Lindsay is the symbol of postpartum depression because to your point, there are millions of moms out there who suffer from this and yet they don't do this evil thing, right? And they, they hopefully sometimes get the help, they work through it, but like they don't actually do this evil thing and yet you have so many moms out there trying to relate to Lindsay in a way that I don't even think that they're at that level that she was. No, they're not most likely, right? And I think they're trying to state something that we all need to be aware of, which is there is a huge crisis amongst moms out there right now in motherhood and the pressures that we feel and I mean, especially now, like I can't even imagine raising kids like you and Natalie are now with the way that the internet is. I mean, I was not aware of all of these Pinterest things that you're supposed to do as a mom and I felt so much pressure. Now it's like if your kid's lunch box is in a work of art, you're an awful parent and it's, it's there's so much pressure on us as a society to raise these perfect kids and to be a perfect parent and this and that that I think these parents are really latching on to this not because they're excusing what she did or they're saying like, you know, we all have felt like we her because that's an extreme. But that beginning of what she was feeling, not that postpartum depression, that loneliness that you said is such a worldwide problem. Mostly in our country because our culture is not the same as some others like in China where they have the sitting month where the mother is supposed to sit for a full month and take care of their baby while their mother comes in takes care of them. You know, when they're supposed, like, there's these cultures out there, even in Italian culture, like, you move back in with your family when you get married in Italy. That's what my cousins did. I thought it was kind of strange because obviously I did not want to move in with my family. In America, we all have kind of like moved away from the village, right? Because we move away from our families. We have access to go across the country. And then you have this baby and you have no village to help you take care of it and you're feeling the pressures, not only that, but you're exhausted. And that, you know, makes everything worst when you're tired. And you just feel alone. And so I think they're trying to attach themselves to something that isn't really what they are experiencing, but they're just grasping at something to raise awareness. I remember after River, and I experienced postpartum anxiety with both pregnancies, I experienced it a little bit more with the twins, just because it was double the hormone drop. But with River, I remember having those same thoughts, Angela, like, we'd be in the car and be like, oh, my God, I'm going to go through this red light and a teen wheeler is going to drive by and hit the car on her side. You know, like the playground, like, you just have all these intrusive thoughts. And I remember I was talking to Sharna Burgess about these and just randomly we're at an event together and she was like, how are you doing? And I think I just like, you know, it all just spilled out of me, but she gave me the best piece of advice that honestly saved me and then saved me with this postpartum as well. And it was to thank the thoughts for coming in because it's making me more observant. And it's making me like, you know, be more aware of what's going on until like when I am going through this red light to make sure that I go a little bit slower to look and see if any cars are coming or to hold River's hand extra tight as she's going up the stairs on the playground because I had the thought of her tripping and falling and hitting her head, you know, just to like thank those thoughts. And I think that like saved me. Yeah, I mean, it's really scary too because I'll never forget when River was born. And again, like overall, we're very grateful for our overall experience. You know, because you hear all these stories of the challenges families have. But when River was born, you know, now it was the day she came home for the hospital and was like pouring rain in LA. I'll never forget it. Our doctor was like, you know, pulled me aside. She was like, you know, now he's going to be emotional and now his mom kind of said the same thing about the baby's baby blues left her pillow at the hospital. And then she came home and like we lost the pillow and now I just started it's bawling and crying and in a way that like was different than I was used, you know, not that I'm used to seeing now they cry a lot, but this was different. And overall, like everything was fine. But even then, there's this like as her partner was like, I don't know what to do, right? You know, like you just try to support you be okay. But like you just can tell there's a bit of a disconnect, you know, that now I was feeling it just it didn't feel like the nally I knew, right? It was a different version of her. And thankfully it was temporary. And thankfully we got through it. This is all to say, even that scenario that in itself wasn't that heavy of a moment. It wasn't that scary. But it still was like, oh my god, I wouldn't know what to do. Back to the, the fan theories with the husband, another thing that's just like so uncomfortable to see is the amount of people online says like, listen, if if something this horrific happened, how does anyone know how would I don't all bets are off? If someone were to kill killed my kids, you know what I'm saying? And how do you know how you would handle something this horrific happening? I literally couldn't imagine how I would process such a horrifying event. And yet you have all these people online being like, well, I would have done. I would, this is how I think he should handle it. This is how I think he should process this pain. And as a result of them, you know, not seeing, not being able to relate to his experience, because who honestly can relate to this, they are making accusations towards this father who's suffering, who lost his children. And you know, as if there's a perfect way to respond to her, such a horrific act. But maybe hit and dealing with it was to find another partner to help him through it. You know, I think to be completely honest as I followed this case, like, to me, as like, and I'm just a person following this case, so this really means absolutely nothing. But to me, it like, it seems like there is enough question within the way this original, like, the original day of this event was handled that like, there could potentially be a retrial as far as like, just like the way the case was handled. Right. And so I think, like, there's information about that that just seems unclear. And maybe it's the nature of the fact that like, the defense is trying to like, put like her motivation into into question, that's like allowing this. And maybe they're just really good at their jobs in that way. But I do, I do wonder if there's just like more to the story of their relationship than people understand that at the same time does not excuse. No, no, it's like, yeah, I guess it'll follow you somewhere. It seems like there are some holes in his side of the story, essentially. But these holes are being be created by fans on TikTok. It's being insinuated by the defense in order to raise like, just raise thoughts about where Lindsey would have been in that moment. So it's not completely generated from online theory, but people are taking it and running with it to kind of like, make it effective. For example, the friend I was talking to about this case, they were telling me about this 911 call, right. And their version of this 911 call was that the husband did not have the appropriate empathetic response and she did. Apparently in the court, like, well, this is a case that we all get to watch. When it comes to the 911 call, that is not something that was aired publicly for everyone to listen to, because it was such a sensitive and devastating call that the jurors, the people in the court, and the reporters, and now the reporters who cover in this case is a pretty broad spectrum from like your kind of independent journalist to people who work for like accredited magazines and news organizations. And I came across one of the reporters who was like, there's a lot of misinformation about this 911 call. I am someone who listened to this 911 call. Let me tell you what was actually on the call. She gave some perspective about like her background, how she is someone who like, she in her previous life worked very closely with the AIDS community. And so she was been around a lot of like very devastating, like, you know, telling parents that their child had died. And so she had experienced a lot of what it was like to, you know, watch a parent react to their child passing and just, you know, the horrifying reactions that some of these parents had. So she had some perspective. And she was saying how like the husband's scream was something that she will never forget for the rest of her life. And yet because it's not being aired to the public to consume and all these reporters now get to report on their perspective of the call, you're, you know, that is turning into all these theories that again, from my friend, who is from from their perspective is clearly watching this case. Their interpretation of this call was the literal opposite from this person who listened to this call, who was reporting this call. And it's just like, it's this night and day different. I mean, that's that's the scariest part to me about the media right now is that we literally have this woman who is admitting guilt. I mean, she's like, I will live with this pain of killing my children for the rest of my life. That in and of itself is a present and a horrible, like, I can't even think about it. And we're still questioning whether or not she did it because we've got TikToks and people's perspectives. Yeah. That have no business giving their perspective. I mean, my friend called me and said, Oh my gosh, can you believe that the husband frame the wife? And I was like, what case are you talking about? This is not anywhere by the legitimate news. You know, this is not the first case that is taken over kind of like monoculture essentially. What is the difference between I know the answer is that just people are like anyone has an opinion online now. But like the difference between like you seeing something online about this case specifically versus like back in the 90s, talking to your like uncle that has no idea what he's talking about. Oh, Jay Simpson. Like people have been theorizing on these kinds of cases for forever. I just I wonder if the difference now is this like everybody has a claim to authority that just doesn't exist. Right. And I think we act as if when we see things on TikTok or whatever, that's like that person is saying that as if they're right when they could also just be like making a video and not necessarily thinking about it as much. And I just wonder if that's created such like a big problem in true crime and like how that's affecting cases and people's thoughts on it. We could spend hours talking about why it's gotten to the way it has. But yeah, I think fan theories have taken on its life of its own. You have creators who again like are incentivized to come up with the most fantastical theories because those are the ones that get engaged with the most, right? And then there's just no sense of like responsibility. Right. Yes. That's such a good point. And it's also they're good to watch. I just think it's scary because it's like the propaganda can reach so many more people and create this swarm of, you know, amasses of people that believe in this false narrative. And that's the scary part. Like when your uncle was talking to you and the villagers and the people in town, it was just reaching that small group. But now the message is going out to the entire world. Yeah. And then you're creating the like a huge group of people that are behind something that is not true. Yeah. And that's scary, you know, especially in something like this. Yeah. And it takes away from like what could be the important conversations too. Because it really does take a village. Like over the weekend, we had Natalie's mom here. We had our sister here. Our friend Victoria was also here. Right. And everyone was helping. And like, you know, we're very involved parents. But like, and it's not even just the help, right? Like, you know, it is very easy for I watch my wife just like be an all-star mom. And it is so easy to just, you know, I've seen a lot of like moms out there talking about I feel like trapped in four walls, right? And I, not that I can relate to that experience as a mom because I'm not a mom. But I have watched my wife. She gives her whole body. She's pumping. She's breastfeeding. She's, you know, she's the again, the go-to parent for like river, you know, it's just like, again, moms always like the first person the babies want. And it really can make you feel like you have no other purpose outside of being a mom, right? Oh, absolutely. They were all like joking this weekend. You know, they were my sisters holding Iris, my mom's holding dove. And, you know, I've got river. And then dove would start crying. And she's trying to console her. She's trying to console her. And she won't. And they're like, oh, she's just got to smell Natalie. Just give her to Natalie. She's got to smell her. And then I would, would take dove. And then she'd stop crying immediately. And then river would be like, mom, put Debbie down, put Debbie down. And then it's like, Iris starts crying. And like, she's got to smell Natalie. And then I've got both of them. And then river's like, put them down. So it is, it's a very, it can be a lot, but like the thing I try to do, I literally was like talking to Victoria. And I was like, hey, I need your help. When, you know, like, when take Natalie out, make her feel like a girl. Like if, if Natalie wants to like, make her feel like herself, you know, whatever she wants to. If it's a yoga class, if it's getting coffee, if it's whatever, just have her go feel like a girl. Like just have her go feel like a woman. Bitch, I'm a woman. A woman, you know, but just have some fun, right? Because again, I think that's the thing that we can forget about when it comes to the moms out there that like that they have this job to do. And like again, you know, Natalie is so grateful of being a mom. It is like the focal point of her life, but that doesn't mean she doesn't want to do other things. And it is, it's, and it can happen so fast, right? You know, you can feel real good one day. And then a couple days later, it's just like, I need my wife to get out and have some fun. And then there's pressure, right? Like then she feels the pressure. But then the internet is, you know, I am scared to share when I'm not with my kids because the internet is so quick to be like, well, then who's with your kids? What are you doing? Why do you get to go out and who's, you know, and it's, it is very pressurized. Yeah, that's interesting. I just remember when I first met Nick and I don't know if you remember this, Nick, but I kept in going, well, if you need anyone to hold your babies at any point, I will come over and you were probably like, who is this weirdo? I just hired. But I think part of it was because I remember that experience of just being like, can someone else hold this baby for a minute? Like, can I shower? Can I just grab a glass of wine? And by the way, like, I barely drink, but I just need to feel like a human again. And it's so important to have a partner like you and a mom like Natalie has an sister. And I think that's what this case like, if we can take away things from this case that can better, you know, our society and better, you know, make a better life for moms is that like, we need to be aware of the needs of our neighbors and the fellow moms in our community. And even if they say they don't need help, just drop off breakfast on their porch or just, you know, write them a little note of encouragement or whatever you can do to help lighten their load because it's a large one. Or just call, right? Because like now and today's, you know, age, like everyone's starting a family at different stages of life, right? It's not the norm where you're like in your early 20s, everyone your age, it becomes a mom, right? Or a parent, like, it's happening at different stages. So a lot of times you will become a parent when your friends aren't in their single, right? And I think there's this kind of like, oh, well, they're busy being parents, you know, they don't have time for me. There's a lot of like, well, you don't call no one, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I remember also, like, when I, the few, you know, the first few weeks of river and in the twins, even just being a, being home with the kids, I remember I would find any moment I could to face time or to call a girlfriend because it was like, I need to talk to another adult. Like, I have to have an adult conversation. I've only been like playing and being silly and talking about snacks and what, you know, it's like, I need to have a real conversation with someone. Can I ask the moms in the room a question? Yeah. Okay. So I'm talking to my sister yesterday, right? And we're catching up and my sister has like, like, my, like, I had my niece recently, or I guess in November, it'll, she'll be a year old. But it's a cutest girl in the world. And I just noticed like, after I was talking to my sister, we were on the phone for like an hour, just like, gabbin. And I was like, I'm barely asked about my knee. Should I feel bad? And now I'm hearing you guys, and I'm like, am I actually maybe doing the right thing by just calling and chitchatting with this? Because I feel bad sometimes. But I also like, it's not that I don't love deeply and like, respect my sister as like a mom. And like, getting to like learn about my niece and watching her grow up and stuff. But like, I'm still just trying to get out with my big sister. No, that's great. It's great to be seen as I ask how she's doing. Yeah, because parents will bring up their kids if they want to talk about their kids. Yeah, because it's like, my sister has a kid. I have a niece. My sister's still my sister. It's like the same thing when she got married. I'm like, that relationship is like, she literally scheduled me an appointment for an OB-GYN while I was asking her how she's doing. She's an OB-GYN. But like, she's, you know what I mean? It's just like, you want to create a relationship. I think it's great to be seen as yourself because yeah, I read something when I was reading about this case about a mom who said, you know, no one sees me anymore. They just see my kids. So it's almost like I'm this invisible person even to my own parents. You know, they call and they ask, how's the baby? And you know, when your friends come over, they want the baby. They want to hang out with the kid and you kind of feel invisible. So I think that's actually wonderful that you still see your sister as your sister, not just a mom. You know, it's like, she is a mom, but she's still who she's always been. Yeah. When my sister got here this past weekend, she, you know, we had been like tracking her location, whatever. Like, oh my gosh, she's about pulling the driveway. So we all kind of go out and I'm holding a baby. My mom's holding a baby and then rivers out there with us. In my sister, you know, of course, goes straight to river first. And then she goes to the the twins. And then my mom's like, and then I'm like, oh, hey, and she's like, hey, my mom does, I always forget about the adults. And I'm like, yeah, like you do, you just get forgotten about. You know, people are talking about this case as if like, okay, well, we need to like make some changes, right? But like, I think we just have to remember that yelling into the void of the internet is not going to invoke change. It just that creates this noise. It creates division and miscommunication. But like to your point Angela, like, who's going to change this? It has to be us, right? It's not going to be our representatives. I don't think we want to require laws to make changes of how we see mothers more. It really is going to take our community. It's going to take your village. It's going to take you, you mentioned your neighbor, whatever it is. But like, it really does take a village, right? And the village is more than just helping with childcare. It is just making you feel like less alone. Like you still have a life and you still get out there and you have, you do have people help. And when, when you do have help to give those moms permission to go enjoy themselves, you know, not just to sit by and watch you hold their kid, but there's to get out and have some fun. But like, it really is going to create us as a society. You know, people are talking about, oh, like this, what this says about society. If it says anything, it means that we need to get off our phones a little bit. We need to stop yelling at each other through the internet and actually like reach out to the moms in our lives and just like check out and see how they're doing. Yeah. I think what's scary is differentiating between what they're going through and the postpartum psychosis because so many. Yeah. It's kind of common for women to go through postpartum depression or anxiety like you guys are talking about. It's one in eight women. Postpartum psychosis is not the same. It's like one in a thousand women and when people with postpartum depression or anxiety don't get sleep, they have, you know, depression mood swings, but someone with psychosis has literal psychosis and breakdowns and they disconnect from reality. So it's great that it's causing awareness for all postpartum, but because they're so different, I think it is really dangerous to just compare yourself to someone who has murdered their children because it is so different. Exactly. Yeah. Propping her up is some sort of symbol or hero. That's just a huge mistake that we are making because again, you can recognize this as something that didn't need to happen. And as a society, we can say, what could we have done differently? What can we do better? And at the same time, not, you know, give the person who killed their kids like sympathy for what she did and recognize that this was an evil act. And it didn't need to happen and maybe we can do better. But like propping her up as a symbol, I think is a bridge too far. It's hard to say for me an evil act because yes, it is horrible, but she was mentally. mentally ill, broken from her own reality and also considering like the issues with medication and the issues with her treatment. And it's like there's so many things that like failed her. The thing is like, yes, I think so. Oh my gosh. Like this case to me is like, it's so upsetting because you're watching someone who like was a victim, do a horrible thing that you can't come back from. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I just, I'm just a little uncomfortable with the victim label, I mean, it's uncomfortable. I mean, but just because someone is a victim doesn't mean that they did something good. Would you describe this, the war hero who came back from war? I think so. Yeah, I would. I think it's the same sort of like that doesn't, someone being a victim in a, in a, in a situation does not, does not negate that I'm doing a heinous act. Especially. Like it's just two things that exist and are uncomfortable next to each other. Unfortunately. I hear you, I guess I hear what you're saying. I guess I'm just like, I think I'm just less quick to use the word victim because again, I think that it blurs the lines a little bit too much. I'm not sure that she's a victim. I think she suffered from a mental illness and disease and the same way that PTSD affects our soldiers and there are, I mean, my uncle, who I'm so proud of, who unfortunately passed away this year, spent his entire life after almost dying in Vietnam, advocating with our governor in New York and with President Clinton to form these programs for soldiers and veterans that will come home and we're severely ill, mentally and physically from, you know, what they had seen and I think that we have to talk about that for our mothers too. Like what is out there? What are the resources? What can we do if we see someone struggling? Yeah. You know, should she have been left alone at any point? Yeah. Right. You know, I'm not sure that, and I'm not blaming anyone, but we take care of our people. Yeah. And make sure they're okay. The village is for everybody. Yeah. People you don't like in the village that you have to like, you know, as a society, we need a line. And I guess what I'm saying is, like society can't always be the thing we blame. And I think something terrible can happen and we can have empathy and we can say it maybe it didn't need to happen, but sometimes someone goes too far where we still can't, like maybe society failed them, but they still need to be held accountable. No, she doesn't need to. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's uncomfortable because there's so many conversations happening. There's the conversation of the sensationalizing it online. People, you know, going so far to defend her or blame the husband or different, all these different things that are happening, which is like a completely separate issue from, like from what I understand, which I don't know all the details, but also I just have to say, like one in one thousand is kind of a lot. Yeah. It feels like a lot more than that. That's a lot for a psychosis, but, you know, to disclose, like I have had a friend who had thoughts like this and was like my family would be better off. And that's like the, and for her, she's like, that's really hard to admit because I understand like my friends, my family, like that's, it's a jarring conversation and it's like really hard to admit out loud, but I guess if that's the definition of like believing that your family would be better off, like then maybe it is a lot more common than we think. But I think in this trial, like she's made it, or it's become very clear that she was, she was institutionalized at one point. She said multiple times to multiple doctors, they messed up her medication. They went against like, that's regaleration, multiple times where they switched medication, like so quickly that can like adjust things like 100 percent in your brain that are like have nothing to do with even your own chemistry in your brain or biology in your brain. Like, there's just so much happening that it is just like a very uncomfortable thing that I think she was a victim of like, or she was a, she experienced a failed system, but also did a horrible thing where there's no right, there is, and that's why the trial, no one's conjoning what she did, but we're also looking at it as like there was a failed system here, or something went, went drastically wrong because I know for me, if you, if you miss a day of your SSRI for two days, like the things that can happen to your brain are so frightening. And so you think about this woman who was already experiencing a lack of sleep, you know, depression, anxiety, all of these things, and then just being thrown medicine and none of it working and messing, like, who knows what was going on. With my, like a moderate experience, like, I've taken like, I tried well buterin and I'm on, like, and I've tried Zoloft, and it's like when you, when there is a medication, like an SSRI that doesn't work for you, like, I broke out, I had like panic attacks and like broke out. Yeah. I cannot be at first. Well buterin, like, and then Zoloft, great, but even if like, if I, if you run out and then it's like, you experience this hangover of like, oh my god, it all just comes rushing back in. Imagine like, experiencing postpart, and yeah, I'm just 25 and figuring out my life, like experiencing anxiety depression to imagine being like a mother with three kids experiencing like postpartum psychosis with the added medication stuff. I don't know. It's just so sad. It's really sad. Definitely sad. I also think it's important to point out that even for the, you know, while postpartum psychosis is more rare than postpartum depression and anxiety, but not every mother who experiences postpartum psychosis actually murders their kids, right? Even that's even as much smaller. Yeah. Of course. Of course. But yeah, listen, like it's, there's just a lot of scary sad things that going on in this world, but like, you know, we just need to be careful trying to bring awareness to something that needs awareness and not associating too much sympathy for the people who are actually committing, committing these acts of, because at the same time, like we need the awareness around all of this stuff, but like those babies also need justice and like they need someone fighting for them. Right. And that's like where it gets. It seems yeah. Yeah. It's getting a little lost. Angel, I just want to thank you for being a part of this, like, you know, into sharing your perspective, because it's, and honestly, it's a story, it's moms telling their stories and people willing to listen because again, like, you know, just, there's just so much parenting discourse out there that is, you know, a lot of it is helpful, a lot of it is not helpful. I still think parenting is one of the best blessings and most beautiful things out there. And I think we need to like be able to speak about how great it is. I think we can recognize the difficulties of parenting without condemning, without condemning children and how difficult they can be. I left so hard because I remember this week and I'm not an easy laugh, but she also just drove me nuts, you know, she also just like when your babies are crying in the middle of the night, and you're on no sleep, it does feel like someone's like taking a drill bit into your brain, you know, like, now and I get very irritated at each other in the middle of the night. You know, it's hard, you know, but they also bring so much joy into your life. And I just think I'd love to see more of the positivity around parenting and, and will let's talk about the challenges, but sometimes these cases have a way of taking on a life of their own. We'll certainly continue to talk about it as the case unfolds and maybe bring on some very qualified experts to help us guys through these conversations. But Angela, again, I just want to thank you for being so vulnerable, sharing your experiences and thanks for being a part of our team. We love you. Oh, of course. Thank you for having me. All right. Well, that will do it for today's episode. Thank you to our guests, Nat and Liv from The Girls. And thank you to our very special guest, Angela, our book or for sharing her experiences on what it does like to deal with postpartum. Let's be kind to each other. Let's be careful about what we post online and just like, you know, support our moms, reach out to your moms, reach out to your people. We need to be less alone in society, but the only people who are actually going to change that is us. So let's just remember that. We are back tomorrow for another great episode of Reality Recaps, who don't miss that. We'll see you then. Bye-bye. [BLANK_AUDIO]