E1172 - My Toxic Ex Returns | Ask Nick

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We're supposed to get married in two weeks. He had been preparing his house to be put up for sale, packing everything up, moving things out. On my way to my final dress fitting, I just pop in and say hello because it was kind of in his vicinity. And not only did I not see that, but, um. You're crazy. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Ask Nick. Doing things a little different this episode. We actually have a unique writer-inner before we get to our calls. And we got Mary here to read our question. We have a writer-inner named Dina who wrote in, Should I uninvite my best friend for my relaxing girls weekend? She said, Hey, Nick and household, my name's Dina, and I'm writing in with a friendship. Thank you. I'm a mother of two with a busy life and job, and I've been planning a spa trip with some of my girlfriends in a month to de-stress and unwind. I've been debating whether or not I should uninvite my friend Kelly. Kelly's the best. We met in college, and she's always the first person to bring the energy up in a room. Since I got married, we haven't been as close. People naturally drift apart, kids get in the way, life, etc. But I ran into her at another friend of mine's son's birthday party. I'd gotten to talking with some of my close girlfriends about planning this trip, and because Kelly was in the room, I invited her to a party. I invited her as well. Long story short, there's no hard feelings between us, but we just don't have the same relationship we used to. I guess I'm writing because, although I love Kelly, I'm nervous about this girl's trip. The only experience I've ever had with Kelly was doing crazy outlandish things when we were in our 20s, and from everything I've kept up with, it seems like she's still that kind of girl. And I love that for her completely, I just don't know if that's the kind of vibe I want to bring to this girl's trip. Am I overthinking? I do love her so much. Would love any and all advice, Dina. But she already invited her. She did. So she's wondering if she should uninvite her. No. No, I agree. I guess, without making it too dramatic, you just give the other friends the 411. Assuming, you know, you don't want it to be like. You don't want to create tension. Yeah, you don't want it to make it weird where everyone's expecting, is it Kelly? It is Kelly. Kelly to act a fool. Does she offer any specificity? What exactly does Kelly. I don't know. I mean, I guess, from this writing, it just seems as if Dina and these friends she's going on a trip with are more, like, reserved, have kind of gone into, like, the chill, like, mom kind of era of their life, and it seems as if Kelly is kind of still in her party era. I think you invite Kelly and you embrace that Kelly is still in this era. I mean, yeah, you're going on a trip. One thing I've learned about people who become parents, everyone likes to be like, yeah, I'm not into that anymore, and life slowed down for me, which is often true and probably necessary in adult life. But, like, someday, I hope that I am Jon Hamm in Friends and Neighbors. Like, I want one day, I don't know what age, I want to find myself in a club. Yeah. You know, vibing, enjoying whatever it is that makes me have a body feel, makes it a moat, you know? I want to unwind. For sure. Maybe Kelly will help these women. Yeah. Remember what it was like to, like, loosen up, and have a good time. I mean, they're all adults. She can't make them do anything they don't want to do. No. I think it's going to end up being. Hopefully she doesn't do anything illegal. I don't think she will. No, it doesn't. I mean, she said, I love her so much, and she said, am I overthinking? So I think she knows. Like, Dina, I think you know that you're kind of, like, in your head about this a bit. I wouldn't even give your friend, now that I think about it, I wouldn't even give their friends that much of a heads up. It's just more like, yeah. Seems like it's going to be a good time. I've invited my really fun friend, Kelly. Mm-hmm. She's definitely, like, not at the stage of life we are, but, like, I think she's a great vibe. Mm-hmm. to what we want to have. And, like, listen, if someone wants to, like, take a night off, you can do that. I mean, the worst thing that could happen is they have a slow night, Kelly's not down, and Kelly goes off and does her own thing. Yeah, I think it's. I think it actually is a really good idea to have kind of this, like, little ball of energy on the trip. It kind of reminds me of this, like, movie that's coming out. What's that? It's called Spa Weekend. Have you heard about it? Mm-hmm. Mm, I have. Yeah, it's, like, this girl's trip with, like, a bunch of different friends. Who's in it? Oh, my God. Oh, Leslie Mann, Isla Fisher, Michelle Buteau, and Anna Faris. And Anna Faris, yeah. And I think that what Dina should do is maybe if she's feeling nervous about this trip, she should. It won't be as crazy as what's in the movie. Yeah, I think, like. And I'm willing to bet all these women at the end of this movie, there'll be some drama. Mm-hmm. and there'll be some moments, but it'll bring them closer together. I do. I think that, too. You know, so much of our adult life is talking about stories about when we were younger. Now, maybe, you know, you need some new stories. Mm-hmm. You need to remember, like, I can still do that, you know? I still got it in me. You still got it in you, and I think it's just, like, have fun, be open to the experience, and if you want, like, a precursor of, you know, what the spa weekend could potentially give to you, you could go see the movie. You're overthinking it, Dina. Yeah. Invite Kelly. Embrace Kelly. I wouldn't even make too much of a meal out of it. Don't even warn your friends. Kelly's here to have some fun. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. We'd love an update. Yeah. Please send in an update. When's the movie coming out? Um, I believe the movie is August 21st. Maybe they should go watch it as, like, a. Like a pregame? Yeah, a little pregame. Mm-hmm. Let's set the tone. Yeah. Because then they'll know that it's all gonna be great. I can't wait to see it. I can't wait to see it either, and I can't wait to see Dina's update, because she will hopefully send it. Yeah, you better update us, Dina. Yeah. Please, Dina. Here's the thing about lifelong friendships. They can survive careers, marriages, kids, but can they survive a girl's weekend away? Find out in Spa Weekend, starring Leslie Mann, Isla Fisher, Michelle Buteau, and Anna Faris as four best friends who escape to a luxury resort for some much-needed relaxation where they embrace a little freedom, meet a few hot men, and make a few bad decisions. From the directors of Bad Moms and the writers of The Hangover, Spa Weekend is a hilarious comedy about friendship, self-care, and the getaways that don't go as planned. Book your escape and treat yourself to Spa Weekend, only in theaters August 21st. Make sure to bring your BFFs. Dina, bring Kelly. How's it going? Hi, I am M. I'm 37. I am calling because I've been with somebody for six years, one baby, two houses, a canceled wedding, and I'm wondering if I'm the problem. Like, just talk me through it. What's going on? Oh, gosh. That's kind of what's tough about this. I'm wondering where to begin. We'll have been engaged. I just realized this earlier today. Coming up three years this December. Together, coming up seven in October, we have a beautiful baby girl that just turned three. I think it all started to kind of crash back whenever the wedding was canceled. So I'm thinking maybe that's an appropriate place to start. Okay. Yeah, tell me how and why it got canceled. We both own our own houses. I'm very attached to mine. Like, I dropped out of school, got my GED at six, and moved to New York and then all over the place. So I didn't really have any security until I was like 25. Whenever I came back, took care of my sick dad, and I finally found my secure, safe landing spot. It just seems like it was a lifetime coming, so it's really difficult for me to let go of. And he owns his house, and it's larger than mine, so it accommodates our family better. But the only thing I had asked of him before the wedding was that whenever we come home from the wedding, we come home to the same house. I had already had my daughter. She wasn't even walking yet. And I just wanted us to finally be a family once we're married. On my way to my final dress fitting, I just, I didn't do it before, and I haven't done it since, but just to kind of pop in and say hello, because it was kind of in his vicinity. And he had been telling me that he was preparing his house to be put up for sale, packing everything up, moving things out. I, you know, I expected that that was what I was going to see whenever I stopped by. But not only did I not see that, and I could tell that he was pretty not psyched that I had just popped by. I get it. I'm not, it's like, give me a heads up, but also we're getting married. Oh, yeah. Like, this is your fiance and, like, father of your child. And, yeah. Anyways, he was, like, playing video games. The house was not packed. I read on the screen whenever I saw what he left, to tell his fellow friends slash players some very vulgar messages in regards to our relationship. And it was just a really shocking interaction. really disappointing and I kind of just didn't really know what to do with myself so I was like well and I with all sincerity I wasn't there to catch him or anything I was like this is just a normal part of what life is going to look like by normal you mean like you you not requiring permission to like enter his space well I knocked on the door I mean like I didn't just walk into his house sure it was just unannounced you know and you could tell that he was kind of freaked out he's he's like seven years older than I am too so I'm like what are you doing and you know to each their own whenever it comes to video games and stuff but like whenever you have other things that you're supposed to be taking care of it was just disappointing and then I saw what was on the screen and that was super disappointing so I just kind of removed myself and went to my dress fitting and it put a big damper on things and then um you know the following day I was like if you want to come over and we can like talk this out we're supposed to get married in two weeks the vacation the invitations have been out like people are flying in I believed in my heart that he was going to come over and be apologetic at least accommodating like embarrassed right like yeah just like open to conversation but he came in he came in like guns a-blazing just ready he was pissed at me and I knew at that moment I was like I cannot walk down the aisle with this person at the end of it like I would feel like a total fool you know and as as humiliating as it was to send out all of the messages like it's cancelled now everybody knows like the status of our relationship and it's like usually that's behind closed doors whatever but um I cancelled it when you cancel it were you just like did you talk with him was that like a conversation you guys had or were you just like I can't do this and you took it upon yourself to kind of email the guests um I informed him it was not happening anymore okay what was his reaction okay okay I mean he didn't take me serious at first but I was like no for real like I'm you know I'm not participating in this kind of did he have a different reaction once you actually followed through no he is he is very strong in his stance he struggles to apologize flashing forward to today four years later maybe no three years two and a half years I don't know I'm really terrible at time so a couple years ago this happened yeah okay and he's still it surprised me he acted like he was also the victim of the cancelled wedding and I'm like huh I was paying my mother and I my father is deceased we're paying for everything so not only were we out a lot of money and I have a dress sitting in her house on my bed now I had to humiliate myself to all of your and my friends and family by cancelling I don't like to call victim but you fucked me over back to the past we didn't speak for a while um of course we spoke but we weren't speaking you know just in regards to our daughter so it was like you you kind of broke up or was it like you didn't really know but you weren't speaking you just knew you cancelled the wedding okay yeah and that's how I am this entire relationship throughout my pregnancy he habitated in my house and was very accommodating we didn't have any arguments except for like whenever he wouldn't invite me to things even if I didn't want to go it just you know like you felt unwanted yeah and it's also like it's also kind of isolating isolating to be pregnant because you just kind of you're you realize every moment of every day what you're going through but they kind of forget not all men but he you know you just continue with your life let's rewind for a second okay that's okay that's all right like listen this is your whole life and I imagine like like you said like where do you start you know right um if it rewind back to when you're happy like you're happy like your happiest moment with him like if it's possible since my daughter has been here okay but even then like what like the man at I'm assuming at some point you were like I love this person right at some point you felt love for him yeah okay when and and what and what was that like for you like why what what did you love about him what did you love about the relationship with him what did you love about the relationship with him the relationship at its best what made you oh I admire a lot about him you know he remembers everybody's name which I'm terrible at he is very personable he's driven he's a good friend he is a incredible father from an incredible father standpoint like what do you mean like give me some we are not only 100 50 50 which is kind of exhausting you know flash forward our circumstances now is literally every other day and that means like after I get off work if it's his night with her I go over and see them until dinner bath bed and by that time I'm really tired and I want to go home and go to sleep but it's like if we're going to have any time alone with each other gotta stick around depending on how long that takes and with me she literally won't go to bed unless I'm sleeping with her that's taking a rollback seat which is not ideal for either of us but like our sex life in other words and then there's times where I feel like that's not going to happen and I'm like I'm going to go to bed and I'm going to that's the only time he keeps me around and makes me a priority is because it's like we have great sex but outside of that it's it's far and few between that we spend any time or that he makes any effort to just be with me I feel like I annoy him whenever I speak and I can't speak about a lot because I'm a you know LPC forgive me what's that um I'm a mental health therapist okay you know sometimes I wonder like if if our daughter wasn't in our life would we even be in touch I mean it doesn't sound like it I know and that's so sad but I think it's the truth but I think that could be my problem he is he's also very steadfast in his pursuance of me from the very beginning if that wasn't the case I would have been long gone a long time ago and that sounds terrible when you say I mean he like early in the relationship he pursued you hard so to speak like anytime I was just kind of like I'm out of here he would be like no let's talk about this and show that he really cared he took things really slow I had a lot of male friends and enjoyed my time with them all of which I couldn't continue unfortunately whenever we became committed I guess so that kind of sucked why why did that suck I don't want to be that girl that's like I only have good friends but um because I left school at 16 and then traveled constantly I didn't really have the opportunity to form those female relationships and guys are just easier to just pop in and like go have a drink or like go listen to music none of it was I don't I don't know if nefarious is the right word but you know I never had any issue with maintaining my boundaries so I really considered all of them friends but obviously I recognized that I wouldn't be super psyched about him having a bunch of female friends that he runs out with or runs around with so I was like okay I get it that's fine but that was kind of my social life I think there's you know like I I had a ton of women friends you know yeah and I can see that you're capable of that yeah but like you know when I met Natalie that that definitely stopped and again I'm still like a lot of these women I'm still friends with they're like again friendly friendly you know it's uh some of them have become friends with Natalie love that um some others just kind of you know lit went on with their lives so to speak but it the reason it works for us and I think the reason why it works for people who like yourself you know we're comfortable with a lot of male platonic relationships is because once you get into a relationship you know and if you listen to the show at all like I'm sure you you know again like I firmly believe that when when you're single and you have a lot of friends of the opposite sex it can be both completely platonic um no weirdness at all but I still think it it fills a void in you know in a person's life and those male friendships like can like play the role of a like a boyfriend would that that kind of male energy you you want around or yeah you know you can go to a movie with him have dinner like again it's not like a date but there's it's just a different conversation I was kind of embarrassed about that being my social outlet and that he has a lot of a lot of friends he has a great circle of friends so it it was also kind of embarrassing I had to say goodbye to the people I was typically socializing with I think that he and I have just found ourselves like kind of at a stalemate and that stinks because I know that we want so much to be a family and I know that we really do love each other so much and my daughter's getting to to the place where she's starting to make comments about wanting us to be together and like she has her own imaginary third house now because she's just bouncing between so frequently so jumping forward a little bit but kind of getting to the like the meat of the issue my house will sell very quickly I've already had you know a few people be like as soon as you put it up please contact me first but I cannot like I know for my well-being that I cannot move into his house like he's still whenever we're in conflict or even maybe unintentionally will make comments about like his house and I'm not "I'm not moving into somebody's house. "I'm afraid that we'll never leave. either because it won't sell or he's he's just like kind of the same thing as whenever i popped in i think he kind of loves the life that he's living which is like why buy the milk cow when you can get the milk for free you know when i when we finally got together you know i had been single for about a part of a decade you know outside of some reality tv related like these kind of i didn't even know it was real or is this a real relationship is it not you know whatever but short of that like i i was i was very single and just like very comfortable being single i think i've told this story before but early early in our relationship we had like just been like all right fine fuck it let's let's do this right like let's let's let's be boyfriend and girlfriend and i'm like all right if you're gonna are you like you know let's do it you know and at that point you know i was nervous about making a decision i mean she was younger so i had i had my nerves you know i was nervous about making a decision i mean she was younger so i had i had my nerves but i was nervous about making a decision i mean she was younger so i had i had my nerves like if i'm gonna do it i gotta we gotta go all in were the sparks just undeniable like yeah yeah i mean okay it was like this is my person it was more like i we had dated for nine months it was a lot of her trying to like you know hey i want to do this and me being like no no no you know yeah very i mean we wouldn't be together if i weren't for her that's awesome once i was like all right we're gonna do this i i at least i'm grateful that i had the i guess the awareness or just the that you have to do it you know like you can't i the thing that helped me get over my mental hurdle was this thought of over the course of my single life uh in that period i had a handful of you know um short-term relationships and i just always found a reason mentally to be like i don't know you know like i think as you get older you get more pragmatic and it's like when you have you know when you again when you're younger it's easy to just be like yeah i mean i like you you know i think as you get older you get more pragmatic and it's like when you have you know we're there's there's something here let's date and then you have some heartbreak you have some disappointment you become more realistic about relationships yeah uh but yeah like life happens and you like you're just like you become more cynical so i was like my single like i was this kind of this cynical person and then you know so i'm here thinking okay what do i do in this situation and i just remember thinking man i've been single for so long and i haven't really tried in a relationship and i could have i've been single for so long and i haven't really tried in a you know i could have dated one of these women and tried it out you know and i just did it and i and i remember having this kind of confused feeling about like man i just don't like there was a time where i was like i think maybe i just got to pick someone i tried i've been in a six year relationship he cheated on me constantly that was a real treat then four years then two years they keep getting shorter but um i was never able to see a healthy relationship my parents divorced when i was six mom is still single to this day dad passed but the one woman he was involved with was just a total nightmare was not a healthy situation older brother my hero i always say is happily married they just had their second child and you know i've really loved seeing him grow and and to himself and whatever from your standpoint how does your brother show up in his marriage he bought her a car uh they just moved into their new house i was in a in an accident on the highway my car was totaled so i had no choice but to get a new car and two weeks later he shows up with a brand new sixty five thousand dollar car paying on monthly never discussed it with me like not necessary his car was totally fine and that you know it pissed me off and he's like you can't ever just be happy for me and just celebrate and i'm like this just feels like how are where am i we are in no way combined financially and no part of his considerations whenever it comes to big purchases and how that impacts if we're ever going to move in together it really comes down to that are we ever going to live together and is that even a good decision like if i can't if we can't communicate and i can't live in his his current home because i literally think i'd lose it then what am i trying to do here just got curious when you you're like oh am i the problem if you were being hyper critical like why are you the problem like just for fun because that's it's always phrased that i am but like what do you actually believe like if you were to like i wonder if i am you know like why can't i just move in there and go through the process of saving money and like living in his space and giving up my my space and just let me just paint a scenario for you let's say let's say he he came over and he's like hey m yes i've been thinking about us and i think about our situation i think we can both agree that like what we have is not sustainable we have a daughter together yada yada right then in that moment i would drop to my knees and hug his legs and say thank you for talking to me see i mean that's okay first of all like that's like i mean talk about never happen talk about bare minimum but like he didn't he didn't even say anything yet and yet you're so like you know starving for for communication but anything and and let's say he was like listen i don't i don't want to live in your house i know you love it and i know i'm sorry but like i just i don't want to live in your house i don't want to i want you to move in to my house but obviously we i i recognize that that will be our house so what can i do to make it more feel like a home for you you know this painting i love can i put it in a different room like let's say you know what i'm saying like he he actually showed up as a partner we have had those conversations okay at my request but when he has those conversations is it sounds like he is motivated to find the common ground because he does he acts like that in the moment i feel like it's just words okay because then it will be later on that week followed up with some kind of incident or situation like for example random i like love little bejeweled like stickers i bring them around and my daughter and i like to stick them places we were at his house and he was just freaking out about like don't put that you know in my house and every time he says my house i'm like it's just yeah you just reiterate yeah how much you have ownership over this space yeah he needs to be right this is his space he earned this he doesn't owe me to tell me about his finances i don't need to know if he wants to buy a new car or bike or whatever but why i mean what what is prompting this kind of energy from him do you think he finally did explain to me in a vulnerable way which i think is one of the things he struggles with the most that growing up he he was never led to feel like his input or insight or you know opinions were not only appreciated but like were wrong or they were never validated so i am mindful in that and i have continually tried to work towards showing not only that i appreciate his input i respect it what i mean what would you say to a client who's coming to you with your problem oh oh gosh i i pull that card a lot too great thank you um i would ask them what they want you know and and that's kind of a cheap way to take it you know i've had clients who their partner was um stepped out on them and i know where i stand in that and i know where he stands in that and that is like that's a complete deal breaker no go no coming back from it and well that's him and i i've seen people successfully work through it and bond and and you know overcome and whenever i hear people say you know in different circumstances that love is a choice to some extent i think i can learn a lot from that because it's not going to be fireworks like there's going to be days that we wake up and just don't like each other for no good reason and you have to choose to be there because that's your family and your partner so i think that's where i'm struggling you i think i am and i could be the problem you know like i'm trying to decipher if i'm just not giving in because i'm afraid what does giving in look like in your situation if you were to be like if you were to just acquiesce and be like you know what i'm gonna be this kind of submissive i'm just gonna let him call the shots and like whatever he wants i'm gonna do it because that you know i'm not saying you should do that but like let's say you just chose to do it and i'm gonna do it that and just be like whatever he wants whatever makes him happy my all my energy outside of like giving my daughter what she needs to survive will be focused on well that's not that's not an option because i have to maintain a full-time job sure okay but like outside energy towards work but outside of like family and personal life that would be i see what you're saying i've tried it it doesn't last that long i i i i recognize and i appreciate and accept that i will always be me no matter how hard i try to accommodate you know being that submissive person i recognize that in the long run it just builds resentment and isn't healthy so let me just finish my my thought or story that i had when you know we first started dating um only just because like i think it's just like to me it kind of exemplifies what now and i were able to do from that moment forward we just committed to each other i had just bought my first house first time in my life you know that was a big moment for me did you talk to her about it uh i did not i mean like um we weren't we weren't together at that time okay right i was buying the house when she was like i want to be your girlfriend and i was like no and this was at a time where she's like, well, fine, fuck it. Like, I'm going to start, I'm not waiting anymore. I'm gonna start dating other people. And emotionally it was like this weird thing where I'm, I'm buying this house for the first time in my life. And it felt honestly, like, I was like, I can't, I can't be part of it. It's like, I'm going to be alone. I'm going to be this like 40, 40 year old bachelor guy with a house. Like, what am I doing? You know, that, that for me, it was more like, man, I can't just can't, this can't be, I need to make some changes, you know, like I need to make some different choices, you know, and that was kind of part of the thought of like the realization that I never really just tried anyway. So we committed to a relationship. And at that point she had agreed that she was going to move. Right. So, and there was this period where she was living in Savannah, Georgia, I was living in LA. And then as being the guy who just had a bunch of women friends, there was a night where I was like, oh, my friends are coming over, you know? Oh, there happened to be two women, you know, attractive women, whatever, you know? And like, you know, and so, but they're my friends and I didn't, you know, I was in my mind, I'm like, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do this. And so, you know, I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm just having some friends over. And then she called and my friends were over and she's like, so who's there? And I'm like, no, it's so-and-so. And, and it kind of like, don't, I'm like, man, I can't like, if I'm going to date her, if I'm going to be a boyfriend, I can't do this. Like I had the realization of like, it doesn't really matter whether I think I'm doing something wrong or not, or, but like the optics of this and realizing how it might make her feel like, you know, I can't expect this person, Natalie, to, to date me and just be like, well, this is my life that I've carved out for myself. And I don't want to be accused of doing something nefarious. Cause I'm not doing, doing something nefarious. And like, you're just going to have to accept that you, you know, you dated, you, you want to date this much older guy than you. Who's like, you know, in a lot of ways has his life kind of figured out. And if you want to date me, you're going to have to like live my life. I was like, I, I'm not going to, that's not a relationship. You know, it doesn't matter, you know, that I I'm choosing to date this person. That's a choice I'm making. And, and I, you know, we had to realize, you know, there's, there's complications and potential pitfalls of dating someone with a, there's an age difference. So it was more like, I had the realization that I have, I have to make some changes in my life. Right. And, and sure, I'm sure she had some realizations too, but it was like that, that kind of epiphany of like, you know, it, it, it requires sacrifice and relationship is about sacrifice. It's like, Hey, I want to be, I want to prioritize this relationship more than I want to prioritize myself. And I think that in that moment was a big moment. And certainly for me, and I think also also our, for our relationship, if I chose to just be this kind of stubborn person who like, and again, Natalie at the time was like, I, I want to, I want this relationship. And I could have probably used that if I wanted to have been like, she's the one who's like, she's pursuing me. And she's the one who really wants this. And I suppose I could have like, I, in a way like weaponize that again, you know, it's like, well, Hey, if you want me, then you're going to have to accept everything about me, you know, but that's not a relationship, a relationship is, yeah. I mean, you're going to have to accept me, but like, if I want to be in a relationship, I have to change the way I move and I have to change the way I prioritize people in my life, you know? Uh, and I have a lot of women friends, but if I want to be in a relationship, I want to be the relationship guy, not the single bachelor guy who has a girlfriend, you know, type of person. And it, it, everything you're telling me, it sounds like he's, he's doing the opposite. Right. And you feel like you're, it sounds you, the way you describe, it sounds like this, you don't have a relationship. You have this kind of, I would hate to say the word partnership because you don't really have that, but like this arrangement with this man that like, again, there's a lot of sexual energy and you, there's a passion, there's a history. And like, you know, I kind of hate that the first thing that comes to mind when you're like, Oh, the thing I love about him the most is how, how, how attractive he is to the masses. Like he, you know, he, he remembers everyone. That's a great quality. I can't remember name people's names either. It's very charming quality. And it's, and it's great for like an extrovert or someone who's like, again, probably pretty likable and like, you know, like, you know, large groups and that's great. But like, how does he show up for his, his family, his person, his people, you know? Um, cause in the example that you just gave, I felt like you, like I was the one who's being stubborn. Okay. Maybe you're both being stubborn spot on. And you're so right about calling it an arrangement. That's just super sad. But that's, and I, you know, I told him that I'm like, you know, we're basically co-parenting with sex here and there. What are, what are things that you feel like you're being on? You're not budging at all. And, and you're wondering if maybe when you're thinking about it outside of your like self that like any other person would, would feel how he feels. The house situation. I, I, and I genuinely am concerned about me living in that house to the extent that I don't think that it would like, I would, I would be stable emotionally. What's more true that you are attached to this house that you have so much so that you. It's not the house. It's the stability that this house provides. Sure. Sure. But I'm, what I'm saying is just, but like, is it, is it that whatever it is, are you, have you convinced yourself that he's the problem ways that he's not? Or because the way the picture you're painting is, I wouldn't want to move either. You know, it's like, because it's, he's made it very clear. It's his house. He doesn't sound like he's willing to welcome you into his house and make it both of your houses. Forget about what's on the, on the fucking paper. No, there's, there's the paperwork. Like who owns it? You know, like, it's not like when Natalie moved in, I was like, all right, you get half this house. Cause you live here. It was more like you live here, you know? And I want it. It's like, yeah, I don't know. Like he made space for me in his closet. But like, were you allowed to, again, like when I bought my house, it was like this, as much as I wanted to think new in your house, you were getting to know it with her. Sure. You know, like you kind of grew into it together and that's what I'm looking for. Yeah. It's like, this is my space. And that's his, and I have, I love his space for him. You know, I get it. That's why I need so badly for us to have our space. And I guess what, what I'm having trouble accepting is that the only way that that's going to happen is if I sell my house and he sells it, move in with him. And then what I'm afraid of is that God forbid, nobody buys the damn house for like six months or a year. Like, and then we crumble. It destroys our relationship. It makes me go, crazy. You know, it's like, but is there a world where you moved in and he was like, you know what I know, but we made this choice and do whatever you want. Like put a woman's touch on it, decorate it. You can move my painting. It's have at it. Well, I possibly, how would you feel? You think it's possible? I brought a paper over with like interior decorating ideas. It's quite a bachelor pad. Whenever I first went there, the master bedroom had a pool table as opposed to a bed in it. Like, uh, that since has gone, he still has like a, whatever that thing with like little people who kick soccer balls. Yeah. Foosball table. Yeah. Foosball table. And he's really good at it for some reason. He's a bachelor dining room table should be. So yes, you know, I think I just don't have the confidence in, I don't know. I don't know if I want to say him or us and God forbid it, it went wrong. I guess I could just say, okay, this didn't work out and go find another place of my own. Could you rent your house? I, you know, a lot of people have said that, or they're like Airbnb. And I was like, no, dude, I don't want to, I don't want other people just chilling out. And what am I going to do with all my stuff? I forget about Airbnb, but you could like just long-term rental it. You could just rent it for a year and accept that. Yeah. And being a landlord sucks. Yeah, I know, but. It's true. It would cover my mortgage. Listen, I I'm a, I'm a problem solver. So I'm just trying to. I appreciate that. I appreciate your problem solving. That's what I'm calling for. And I think you're right. I mean, if I, I just have to take that leap both physically and emotionally. Oh gosh, that's just so scary. And I've, I've unfortunately said so many times, I was like, okay, I'll move in. And then I'm like, no, I'm not. We started watching as a show, a team married at first sight the other day. Have you watched it? Fascinating, right? And I'm curious, so you're familiar with the show, but watching that show reminded me of what I've always thought about relationships. And in the sense that at the end of the day, there's like, there's no like, you know, five things you need to do to make a relationship work. Fuck. I don't know. Fuck. I don't know. Every, every relationship is different. But at the end of the day, relationships work because you just want to make it work. That's it. It just comes down to two people being like, I want to. Love is a choice. Love is a choice. And not even love, but just a relationship, a partnership is a choice. You know, like you just want to, you have to. And usually that in feeling like you have a partner who's always there to like, you know, again, if there's a problem that the partnership shows up and says, all right, we have a problem. We have a problem and we want to fix it. And it's not, it's, you're not thinking about as like, it's my problem. And how do I get her or him to like, agree with me? It's just more like there, there's a feeling of partnership and a determination to like get through it. And I think that that really grows love because you feel like you have someone. And I'm not providing that to him, you know? Okay. And that's where I'm part of the problem. I think that he would really thrive if I were to just, I hate to say it, but kind of fold and give in those are not, those are not lovely words to use whenever it's like, okay, I want to be part of this team and partnership. So you're both stubborn. It sounds like maybe. Yeah. Yeah. We're both pretty type A. I think I do better whenever it comes to communication and apologies and stuff, but. Says, says the type A person. Yeah. I also, I'm curious what you think, but like for me, not expert here, someone who does therapy, who thinks therapy is great. I actually wrote a I think most people get into therapy because they're stuck they're stuck on something you're stuck on this right or you're you know whatever you have a problem you can't on your own or with your friends or you know a friend or podcast like whatever you're just you're ruminating you just you you can't figure it out and hopefully you go get therapy to help you get unstuck and right and part of that process as you know unstuck is evaluating the situation the role you're playing in it but like you gotta you gotta you gotta make some progress you sound very stuck in this situation for years for years right and i think you need to recognize that you know and i think more than anything if i'm you i would be determined into getting unstuck because yes you're young you don't feel that but you are you know you're 37 you know and so like life's not you know it's getting any you know it's like you you have you're in your prime years here you know and i think you need to recognize that you're just you're making the same decisions every day over and over and nothing is getting done so something has to happen you know right and even if that something is you making a decision you ultimately regret at least you made a decision and at least you got somewhere you know like so so there's that uh so i would be open to doing that now again like you guys are gonna have to figure out who's more stubborn and the type you know because like i'm glad you're willing to like recognize that maybe you're part of the problem and of course you are part of the problem because in every relationship you know it takes two but it's not going to work if the solution is for you to do all the bending for him and him him not right he does very much sound like and the ultimate bachelor who's very comfortable with his life and while i'm sure he was embarrassed about the canceled wedding it sure sounds like at the end of the day uh you have given him a life that honestly kind of meets his his his needs which is to like he's got a great mother for his child he can be he can still feel and show up for his kid and be a dad it's not a typical kind of cohabitating situation but it allows him to still have a pool a foosball table or whatever um and it sounds like he has a lot of freedom to still like prioritize a lot of his friendships in ways that maybe he should probably be prioritizing his his partnership his relationship but he's not doing that um but either way whatever's going on it's this isn't sustainable um and it's not a situation i would want to be in if i were you and you know um and i think you guys are right you guys got to get on the same page the fact that you're so deprived of communication with him is a problem i know it's something i would note for yourself again maybe i don't know maybe you're part of that problem even in this call i would say like one thing i picked up on is you definitely seem resistant to solutions um and ideas and you're quick to like think about why that's not going to work i'm going to do it right now okay which is i just want to i want you to have all the information so i might i might respond with you know an explanation but thank you for that insight i think more than anything having a male's point of view is something that's kind of hard to come by particularly because i don't have many people able to speak to um so i appreciate that and i imagine that he's probably felt that more than a few times in our relationship i can do better for sure i would want to know what what you're going to be curious just like a guy to guy he wants us to be a family he does he really does what is he willing to do about it like exactly you know like what sacrifices is he willing to make i think you guys i think in his mind we are you know if i let it go like this it's not this isn't this is yeah but that's you know and so step one is okay what do you want okay he says he wants to be a family well what does that look like to you and then you could be like well that's not what a family looks like to me it's not and if he would have told me that i'd be like that's i don't know that's not what i just got to move in the strength of my relationship bummer yeah yeah only but only if you feel like you're getting something in return you know again like it's not supposed to feel transactional it should be any progress is progress yes i really appreciate that insight and that even if it doesn't work out then at least you you got out of being stuck that's yeah but i just he needs he needs to yeah so that is that is something just just try it out and again like if you really are attached to this house i know it's not ideal yeah but like knowing that like this isn't a sure thing maybe like again like a temporary solution is to let someone rent it so that like it's not weighing you down and you don't have the financial burden of maintaining a second house and having that be something that pulls you away from trying to make this relationship work and given the house it sounds like it sounds like if you do end up selling you can sell it when you feel more secure in the relationship but like it would seem a little risky to sell this house and to move in i mean for a long time he was like why don't you just move in here and then you can go home to your house to work and then you come back here at night you know and but i have a dog and a cat he needs to like that's the thing it's not what's the craziest to me is this like you're either a fan again i think the strength of my relationship with my wife and natalie is that like we just we do it all together you know we are you have to you have to be a team you have to feel like you're in it you know like you have to feel like you know her problem her problems are my problems and vice versa and when i'm feeling down or in pain or whatever it is she feels it too you know again like we're connected you guys are not connected at all i don't like they're and that's that i don't know how a relationship survives without that type of connection and so to me like that see but you're now you're scaring me because it's it's that it's not left and right brain neurologically but like it's like this shoulder the devil or the angel in regards to like just take the leap give it a chance live as a family try to sell the house go make progress and then the other one's like who are you fooling like you you don't even on the weekends whenever you have time to be together you're not with each other like he's going to go golf with his friends and you're you know like you're pulling weeds in the yard step one is yes do something because this is this doing nothing has lasted far too long and it's getting you nowhere for sure that being said i wouldn't my i you told me say the solution is just to move in to me step one is to actually have an honest conversation about do you guys both want this and what does that look like yes you want to be a family but a family means something it sounds like it means two totally different things to you guys you should describe what a partnership looks like for you and is that is that what he wants and you should give him the freedom to be like listen what i want is for us to both be happy what i want is for us more than anything is to show up for our daughter and if that means with each other that's what ultimately what i want but also but if it doesn't then like we'll be sad but fine but if we're going to be together we should both be on the same page of what that looks like right and i think you guys need to have an honest conversation about what that looks like and just be okay with that other person's truth but just be honest about that like if he is this more like yeah this is my you know you can certainly try right obviously these things these insecurities he's opened up about to like obviously yeah i mean you should try to go and do something to him for advice or did you know it just you know figure things out together natalie and i were both first-time parents right and she has opinions i have opinions but this when i feel most connected to natalie with parenting is when she's kind of like i don't know what do you think and i'm like i don't know i kind of think this and we're like okay let's try this you know we just come to a decision together you know and we might be wrong i don't fucking know but like we're both willing to hear the other person out and there are times where i'm like okay that makes sense let's let's give it a shot you know we are not focused on being right luckily whenever it comes to our daughter and we are on the same page that's great you know so i think if anything that gives both of us the idea that like it's just ourselves getting in our way you're well past suggestions or passive-aggressive communication you need to be like you need to be like listen you know like when nally and i tried out couples therapy it was really great for us um and it sounds so like you know trivial and um but our therapist was like so how are you guys connected and i was like what do you mean and again you think about connection and we think about connection and dating about like that that an instant feeling you have on a first date of like do i feel a spark you know but like my therapist was more talking about like on a day-to-day basis how connected or unconnected are you you know like an actual tangible thing like it's on any given moment you guys are either closer or further apart than you were than a previous moment right and so the act of like now we're not talking to each other that's great yeah right they're very unconnected but like for us it was more like physical touch is not a huge love language of mine you know um it is for natalie but just like in some of the therapists is like you know like how often you guys like just when you're walking you know you date for a few years you kind of like get comfortable with each other just be like oh we're walking well how often do you guys reach for each other's hand and just like intentionally hold each other's hand it's like a form of being connected and it's crazy just how how how little that sounds and how much that does it's the little things but they're not little yeah they're really not so but like that is something we both had to been like oh we should hold hands more and that was definitely a note for me because like i i'm not the physical touch person so like i had to recognize that in myself you both have to do that it sounds like and you both are going to have to feel like the other person is hearing you and then you're both going to have to acknowledge that like you're part of thing and you both have to be focused on things you can do not what the other person needs to do and then you have to both give each other like the trust and grace to give him a chance to succeed you know without like keeping score on a day-to-day basis and and then check in a few months later to feel like have things changed yeah you know um but to me before you just go crazy and just like do the thing that's going to give you the most anxiety which is to like move in i you really need to feel like he is down to really make you feel welcomed and that he wants this type of partnership and he is going to have to give up his personal space this idea you know the story you told me when you first started is crazy the fact you got no resolution like again like i i can't imagine talking shit about my wife to anyone let alone like my internet friends um but if i were trying to be vulgar yeah if i were to try to give him the most amount of grace which is crazy and i still don't i don't buy the excuse and i imagine this is what you were thinking in the moment which is like i don't know maybe it was like i don't whatever that you know that and he was exactly he was just trying to like show off to his friends but like the only reasonable response would for him to have been like so horrified and embarrassed that he was trying to like look a certain way to some internet friends that he should have come back and been like i'm embarrassed i'm like i'm a fucking it i'm embarrassed and he didn't do that which is no he doubled down which is kind of crazy and like that's it's gonna make someone feel unsafe in a relationship you know if i'm you i'm like how who else do you talk shit about and you clearly feel justified for talking shit you know and i'm like i don't know i don't know i don't shit you know like there's a guarantee like in any relationship like i you know you can't i'm i can't promise nally i'm gonna upset not gonna upset her she can't promise me that what we can promise each other is that we become aware of the other person being upset by our actions that we're going to give a shit enough to do something about it to be like first be like i'm sorry you know even if we feel prideful and and right that like it doesn't matter if i feel right my partner's hurt so i got to figure out you know the common ground you guys aren't doing anything you guys aren't doing that you know uh and that to me that's that's the bare minimum and you got to figure out how to do that foundation yeah and you guys have to figure out how to do that before you think about moving in at least have a conversation that feels like you're heading in the right direction i don't think it would be very smart given how you've described your relationship in its dynamic to just say fuck it and move in like that that kind of sounds like two people who are like oh we're not doing so well the next headline our lease is up so maybe moving in will help i don't think moving is going to help because with what you're what's going on no we both own it's you know that's why it's even but i'm just saying like just the act of living in the under the same roof i could see a situation where you're going to feel even more alone because like he you're both you're you're there and yet he's he treats you like a roommate and he treat you know it's just like he constantly reminds you that it's his house and it's his space and you feel like you have to ask permission to do things like yeah you know that's that's not sustainable so but yes i think step one is recognizing that you can't keep doing the same thing over and over and you need to do something different and you're still really young and you and if listen not it's not what you want but i would if i'm you i would rather have the knowing that my daughter has a great father even though he's not a great partner to me and and i can find that great partnership with someone else if he doesn't want to be it for me if anything that's what i would focus on at the end of this call is that you just can't the this sucks what your current situation sucks it's horrible it's it's worse than being like it's because it's like you're you're stuck you you you can't do anything about finding something else because you're stuck in this thing you don't even know what it is you're not even talking and you guys are too comfortable both of you with not talking you're it sounds like your solution any problem you have is just to be like well i just need a break for a few days yeah yep and then you and then you and then you like you you come back together only because you kind of have to because you have a daughter and you never really talk about it and that just creates more distance i would love to talk to this guy i just curious what he wants for himself you know he's got it if that's how you really feel then then you definitely need to change things because it's not what you want and you're not happy do you think he's happy you know i think he would he would appreciate more sex we just literally don't have the time but short of that you think he's comfortable with the situation you know i i think he i think he would keep this going as long as he could that's not that sucks that's not good that's not you don't want that no and it's not i mean that's not even realistic you know i mean it's been happening for seven damn years well you've let it you've let it happen you're right you're right i know you let it happen but like i just don't think what he's selling most people are buying if you if he was actually up front with what he was selling i mean i have taken my ring off and left multiple times and drawn the line and made boundaries and we've been out of touch for weeks at a time and because i can't talk to him i'm not going to talk to him i'm not going to talk to anybody else i don't know i really like we are just we're very different people and the world brought us together in this way so you know we're going to figure it out but you have given me a lot of insight well that's the thing you should you should be determined to figure this out and i think oh i am you gotta stop with the the idol yeah i know like it's like that's what i say it's like once it gets to me i realize people are pretty much yeah it's i'm not talking to this fucking guy um no no no i get it the idol threats the the i'm not going to talk to anybody else i'm not talking i'm taking your ring off none of that works for him because there's too many examples of getting back together it just has to be a grounded exhausting a grounded conversation where it's not like a coming from anger it's coming from like exhaustion and it's just like i don't i i just i don't want to like co-parent with someone who's kind of my partner but not we have two different houses and we don't i don't want this and if you do that's fine i i just don't but what i want is to be an actual family and i don't want to say we're a family i want to act like a family and i want to have a partner and yes i know there's things i can work on and if there's other things that are bothering you let me know what i can work on but i want to feel like we're connected and like actual connected i want to feel that i want to feel like we are have each other's back and more than anything that like if if everyone if the world's against us i have you and vice versa but there's some things that are bothering me about you know and i can we can we figure this out and if you don't want to that's fine i mean i'm not it's not fine i'm going to be sad i'm going to be really upset but like he's gonna lie to me and tell me what to do that's exactly what he wants but if that's how you feel then you just got to get out i mean you it doesn't sound like you have much faith in him you know i don't i hear you i'm not going to drive this on we could talk forever you really have helped tremendously i know how to put my money where my mouth is and and start kind of shifting my intentions so priorities you got too much going for you to waste your life on this relationship um you do you know and and these are prime years for you and and you should be moving forward and everyone all we all get stuck on things or people and and we can and yes it requires some periods to work on them but as you said years have gone by without any real changes or progress and that is a sign that like things need to change drastically and and i would be determined on changing your current situation and whatever whatever happens it honestly is better than this that's that's like point number one amongst many others but i think that you're totally right in that regard the thing again i guess go back to what i've what makes me feel like is what works for me and natalie is that like i i don't feel like we're constantly battling trying to be right and totally and that is there's not a hierarchy there yeah it's you're a team you know and that's that's all i want that's all i want yeah and that's have fun together and that makes us feel closer it's and that it's it's yeah it really is that easy but it does require that awareness and and vulnerability yeah and willingness to make sacrifices i would really be curious on how this thing goes and okay and then that way you could have maybe a really successful story i've got to hear it first yes you gotta you gotta get yourself unstuck yeah all righty thank you i appreciate it all right appreciate you bye bye what's up everybody don't forget that all vile false pulse content is ad free plus for all you ask nick listeners out there your update specials are ready and waiting for you i know you are very interested on the follow-up calls what has happened to these people after they heard my advice did it help them did it hurt them has their life changed well you can find out on update plus and you can get update plus behind vile files plus so go to vile files.com to sign up most dog food brands don't really want you seeing how their food is made just food for dogs is the opposite they actually invite you in you can walk into any of their kitchens and see real human grade ingredients like chicken beef carrots and peas being prepared right in front of you it's real food made in real kitchens nothing is hidden behind labels and that kind of transparency says a lot nothing to hide everything to love go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50 off your first order emotional processing and wellness are about self-care and discovery bring immediate dopamine boosting joy to your daily journaling with the g2 smiley world collection from pilot combining the smooth vibrant g2 gel writing experience with smiling emoticons that can activate the same brain response as a real smile they're designed to help elevate your mood and bring positivity to your writing find g2 smiley world at target today g2 smiley world write happier how's it going good hi nick thank you for taking some time for me no problem what's your name it's nicole i'm 43 and how do i tell strangers i don't have kids without crying I know it sounds silly, but, um, so backstory, I guess, maybe I just started a new job. Um, I'm in sales, which I know you have a history of being in sales in the past. And, you know, there's a couple of different kinds of sales jobs. The one that I had before for a long time was more long-term relationship building. So these people became my friends, some of them like family, you know, they know each other, you know, each other personally. Um, this one is more like speed dating. And so I'm meeting a ton of people really quickly. And I'm a woman of a certain age. It's probably pretty easy to assume that I might have kids, but a lot of these are men as well. They don't really have that sensitivity factor all the time to where that could be a sensitive subject. And I get asked a lot, like, so you must have kids. And the story is like, it's been, it was, it's a really hard subject for me because I'm not able to, and we tried. Okay. And it's really, so, it's really hard. I don't know how to not make it awkward. You say we tried, are you in a relationship? Yes. Married. Yeah. So second time, second marriage for both of us. And I think for a long time when I was, you know, girl, like in my twenties and like the prime time for that, I was against having kids, but now with hindsight and maturity, it was because of who I was with. So now, and now that I'm with my amazing husband, I understand why people want to have kids. They, you know, wouldn't need this amazing person that I'm married to. Like if I could take all the good things of him and all the good things of me and make a person, like how cool would that person be? And congrats by the way, like, I'm not jealous at all, but like other people are sensitive about that. It's more personally like the question. So I get it now. And now that it's like taken away from me, like it's. How, how long ago did you have this realization that it wasn't possible for you? I've always known it's going to be a really big challenge. We tried for about five years and, you know, after, a certain point, I was like, if we did, it would be dangerous for me. It would be dangerous for the baby, you know, and we didn't really want to go the route of like really forcing things with like fertility and, you know, all of those, all the money and stress that's involved in that as well. And so we just had to kind of call it eventually and say, no, how's your husband handled this? So he has kids from his prior marriage. Okay. Um, so, um, but I'm not, super close with them. Um, I kind of just like make sure that they have the time and space together. You know, I don't want to interrupt with that. I know their mom is great. Like we have a good relationship, so everything's good. So he just doesn't get to see them as often as like, you know, a lot of other people could. And so I never want to step in. So I feel a little fraudulent by saying like, well, I have step kids because like, that's, I don't know. I just feel, feels yucky to like claim them as mine. And I know I'll have like a part in it, but like, - How old are they? - They're 15. They're twins. - Okay. And just out of curiosity, like, how's your relationship with mom and? - Oh, she's great. I mean, like we're not braiding each other's hairs and like, and having like, you know, glasses of wine together, but like, it's definitely not like bad, you know? So it's not contentious. - And when it comes to the relationship with the twins, are you, is it more like, do you think it's more you kind of being very self-conscious about the role you play or, I mean, they're teenagers, so, you know, I can imagine. - Yeah. And, and we've been together for, over 10 years. So, you know, I've been there for a lot of it, but I guess maybe it started off as a respect thing, you know, at first was like, I want to respect their time. I want to respect her role. You know, I'm still here, you know, I'm around, but just like, you know, as far as like claiming them as mine just feels gross, you know? Cause it's, I feel like that's almost disrespectful. - But you're not saying they're my kids. You're saying they're my, my stepkids. - Yeah. Yeah. But I guess like, how do I dance around that? Because like, - Why do you have to dance? - I don't want to say to a stranger, like, oh, I couldn't have kids, like, you know, I don't want to make it weird. And so I also like need to be able to like, not choke up every single time it comes up. - I mean, I don't, I don't know if I have the best answer. I mean, more than anything, it's just like, and I was reminded of this, I was having a conversation with someone. It's just like, you know, we're always more aware of our sensitivity about things than the rest of the world, right? Like, or criticisms. - Yeah. - Things we see or about us or things that we're just self-conscious about. We're always afraid that everyone sees our insecurities and it's so obvious to, you know, everyone else, but everyone else is in their own world and everyone else has their own problems. And I think just that alone is something you should try to focus on, you know, that obviously it feels intense to you, but you're, you're clearly very self-conscious about how people perceive you or what your, you know, the, the inability you've had to be a mom is obviously affected you, but you're clearly like, you're just very self-conscious about, like, it sounds like your value both as a partner and I guess as a woman, I suppose, or what society is, places on women, you know, and it sounds like maybe you feel a little bit of that pressure and I can't tell you to like, not care, you know, but again, it's just more like having that realization that like, you know, you just don't owe anyone any explanation, you know, because it clearly seems to be a part of you that you, when that question comes up, obviously it's sensitive and you, it sounds like your brain immediately makes a bunch of assumptions of what they might be thinking about you depending on the answer you give them, you know. That could be fair. Yeah, there's probably some of that there. When this question comes up, you know, you, it sounds like you feel like you really owe anyone who asks like this deep explanation. I don't want to, but I do, yeah. Which, you know, and I think partly it's just might be like, you know, unfortunately, no, it just wasn't in the cards for me. Yeah. You know, and I think most people, even the men, recognize that maybe there might, there might be some sensitivity behind that answer. Yeah. You know, I can't promise you all men would be sensitive, but like, oh, it wasn't in the cards for me. You know, it's like, yeah, there's some, that could be a couple different things, but on the off chance, it's because you couldn't have the ability to have a child. Like I'm, if I'm a potential client and I'm going to be, oh, that's, you know. Keep it moving. I would, I would, I would, I would move on from that conversation as fast as possible. I know, but I don't want to avoid, I want to avoid that. You know, I don't want to make people uncomfortable. And, and think, I think maybe too, like, so I said, it's a new job. Like I've only ever worked for two other places in my whole career. So I'm not a jumper and this is like in the same industry, but not, and I'm having such a and I'm dealing with like some, like a mean girl at the office too. That was also in the, in the email I sent. And I've always felt really welcomed at places that I've been before. So like, this is all scary for me. So like, you know, it's like, I'm trying to find my footing with this new job. And then like feeling like this question would never come up this often before in my past. And so like, it's, it's just like getting like, and it's like speed dating truly. So it's like a one of these events where it's like, I get asked it so many times. It's kind of hard to avoid. It's kind of hard to not like get upset or let it get to you. And then, then I'm feeling like starting this new job. And like, it's just, it's a lot. So it's like kind of a lot at once. Just like, have you guys talked about adoption or anything like that? Is that a conversation? No, I don't, I don't think that that would be a route that we would go down unless it was, you know, a situation that was put in front of us. Okay. And that is, is that more of a, a, a both of you thing, a you thing or a him thing? Like I was kind of talking him into having to trying for the baby because he is older than me and it didn't, when I say talking him into it, I mean like he would do anything for me. He's incredible. And he knew I kind of like wanted to at least try. So see, this is so silly. I'm smiling. It's still crying. But he, he was willing to try and be of course over the moon excited. If it worked, you know, but it just, it didn't. So, and it's, I think it's the, like the finality of it. How long have you been feeling this way? Well, probably since like probably three years when I was 40 is kind of when I said like, this is getting dangerous if we did. And, you know, it's scary to think about like putting things in, putting myself in jeopardy and the baby, in jeopardy. And, you know, so I just, we just, I had to get back on the pill and, you know, to, to do that just to be safe. But like, it's, I think when you're young, you think you have so much time and then like when you realize that like you don't have that option anymore, that's what's tough. Have you been going to therapy about this? I have gone to therapy in the past. I have not gone to therapy about this. I mean, I think it's like, maybe it was probably always like there, but like now that I'm in therapy, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that I'm at this new job. And like I said, it's like a machine gun with all the amount of times I can ask this question, you know, cause it's a relationship job. It's a relationship industry. So like, they do want to get to know you. I'm selling myself essentially, not so much, you know, the product or the service. And so I guess I do feel like I have to be honest. Well, you know, I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying you should lie, but you know, you mentioned I came in from a sales background. Yeah. So it's a sales position. Yeah. When I was in sales, I worked for a company and a lot, a lot of, a lot of was over the phone and not that it really mattered. And I'm sure as you know, this, like the buyers always want to feel talking the most important person. And so my boss was like, I don't know, just make up a title. I don't know. You're the, you're the vice president of whatever the fuck, you know, because like, you know, it's, but there's some truth to that, right? Like, I'm not saying you should be a dishonest salesperson, but like you're, you're, you're, you're, you know, and also when people ask when I was in sales, you know, I'd sell different things. Like to your point, it doesn't matter what you sell, what you are selling is a dream. You sell dreams, you sell solutions to problems that, that, you know, that is the key to a salesperson. It doesn't matter what you sell. You, you know, whatever, I don't know what you'd sell. It doesn't really matter, but your, your, your, your perspective clients are ideally the thing you're selling is a solution to their business problem. So you got to understand their business problem. And then you look at your solution and be like, well, here's how I can solve your business problem. Right. Yeah. But like, you know, they don't, they don't care about your day-to-day life and they're not that interested in that stuff. You care about it. And I think obviously you are projecting that on, and I think you, you know, listen, you, you clearly are still processing this reality for you and, and, and you haven't fully processed it yet, which, you know, is totally understandable. And I don't know if I have a lot of insight in how to help you process this other than like the fact that you haven't explored therapy about the specific thing. It sounds like maybe a good first step. I would, I would find a community. I don't know how you do that. And I'm sure it's, you know, it could be an online. Community of, of women who have had certainly are people, but like certainly women who can relate to your experience. If you do, you know, I think it's really important in your situation. If, when you, if you do look for therapy for this, to find someone, ideally a woman who at least has some insight to, you know, they don't necessarily have to be a woman who's was unable to have her own children like you, but like someone you feel can really like at least understand you somehow and feel heard. Right. But I do think you need a community to talk about this stuff with. And I think you will find one women who relate to you and, and, and, and women who can offer you some perspective on how to handle these situations. What I'm confident in saying is that you are putting this on you more than any of these people are. Oh, I'm sure. Yeah. And short of you running into someone who's like, you know, fresh out of 1945, I doubt any of these men who use. I know, but like, even then I doubt many of them are like, are, are you a mom? No. Oh, well then I can't buy from you. I don't know if they're, I don't know. Hopefully they're not all that sexist. Oh, let's see. You're going to run into some bad apples, but like, try to, try to get, yeah. But, but that's, and if they are, that's their problem. I mean, you, you didn't then again, just recognize that, wow, this guy's really out of touch and really gross and really like who God, God, I don't, I don't think I want to sell to a guy like him. I mean, I would want, that to be your attitude rather than feeling like you got judged and you're less than. I think it's more about my, like, I know I have this pain and it's, it's less about like, there's a little bit about it. That's like what they perceive me for sure. It's completely accurate. It's, I just think it's like, it's just something I've not had to address so often. And I think that's like, it's a, it's a, it's like touching a sunburn over and over and over and over again. You know? Are you willing to bet without being a part of these conversations because it's such a sensitive issue and it's constantly on your mind that you are finding ways to get this brought up more than you realize? Oh, I hope not. I don't know. But I just, usually when we are kind of, I don't want to say obsessed, but like, you know, stuck on an idea in the forefront, at least, you know, it's, and it's something you, and that you're worried about people finding out, like it's, you know, it's like, maybe this is a bad comparison, but like every once in a while someone will call in and they're like, I'm, you know, I'm a late twenties, early thirties version and I'm dating. And there's always this question of like, do I need to tell them? Do I not tell them? Especially like, you know, a lot of, you know, they're a virgin because like, not because like maybe it was religious when they were younger. And then it was this more like, I don't know. I just kind of always wanted to be like kind of special. Not like I didn't want to just go fuck someone. And then I haven't found that person. And now I'm just kind of a virgin and I don't really want to be. But like, you know, and they get really self-conscious about it. It usually in those situations, it's like, again, they, they put it on themselves more than the other people. And like, again, it's just like, they're, they go on their first date and the only thing on their mind is like, I just need to tell them I'm a virgin. All right. I just, like, I just, I need to get this off my chest because I'm just so afraid of what they're going to think or what the, and I just want to, I just want to get it out there and be done with it. And I, I just wonder if there's some version of that going on with you, because it is something that you're so self-conscious about. Self-conscious about. If for no other reason that maybe you weren't self-conscious about it, but this new job, again, it made you more self-conscious because the conversation got out, you know, brought up a little bit and then it kind of snowballed. Right. And maybe, maybe you weren't the reason it started, but maybe you're the reason why it continues to feel this way. Yeah. I wonder if there's a little bit of that going on. Maybe. I mean, there could be truth in all of that. And it's, and I'm sure that this feeling was always there. And it's just the fact that it's like, I've never had to, and it's, you know, introduce myself this much or have these quick conversations with people where this comes up, you know, and just like getting to know you kind of thing. And it's, so it's, I'm sure I, I know it's me, you know, I know it's my problem and, and it's a, it's a heal, a wound I need to heal. You know, and I think it's like, I feel super like, I don't know, like inadequate's not the right word because I know I'm good at my job. I know it, I know what I'm doing. I'm like, I've been doing this work in this industry for my entire career. So I know what I'm talking about, but like, I put myself out there for this new company and like, I don't like, I just, it's scary. It's scary. Well, I, I, I feel like inadequate is the right word. I just don't think it's applying to your, I think it sounds like that's the feeling you're feeling. Maybe. I think it's, you know, I think you recognize that's, I guess, I suppose silly as far your job feeling. Right. But yeah, I, I agree. I don't think it has anything to do with how you're going to be able to perform at your job. It's just like, it's just how you're feeling about the situation. Yeah. And again, like that's just something you're going to have to process, but in terms of how, how you feel about how other people feel about you, that's like the thing that sounds like you're struggling with the most, because again, you're just going to have to, you're going to have to process this pain and deal with it. And it's showing up in this particular situation because it's a new situation. It's a new job. And, but just remember, well, it's not what you wanted. Um, it's 2026 and there are a lot of couples out there and a lot of people who are just like, I don't want to have kids. It's not for me. It's a choice they make and, and they're totally happy with it. And it's not like, again, it's not 1950, you know, like there are a lot of women and a lot of people who are in relationships and, and love their lives and love their freedom and love their independence. And they're just, they didn't want to have kids. For sure. And I have so much of that too, like, I mean, he's incredible and we're like, still like newlyweds and then we'll have 10 years this October. We travel all over the world. Like he, he brings me breakfast in bed every morning and that's not even an exaggeration. Like he's wonderful and we have a great life. It's just closing that door. Yeah. So, yeah, listen, you still have to, you have to process that. And I think you need some help. And I think a good therapist will help. Uh, I would be picky about who that therapist is. You could try. Buy them out. If it doesn't feel like it's going anywhere, I would try something else. I'd also try to find a community of women who can help you processes some kind of support group. I imagine one exists when it comes to this type of stuff. Maybe there'll be some comments on this or something. I'd be careful about reading the comments though. But like, maybe I'm too sunburny for that right now. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I just think, you know, you do, there are clear, there are definitely a lot of people out there who can help you process this and make you feel better about this. And, and you're just, you're just, you're really hard on yourself right now. And you're in, in that much, I feel confident saying, but again, I just, in terms of like in the short run, next time this comes up, just try when this, when this question comes up, just, just less is more, you know, it's, you know, it just wasn't in the cards for us, you know, and then move on and just, and just move on. Try to not, don't sit on it. Don't like, don't, you know, like right now you're like, you probably like check out, you probably like go in some, like, I kind of was just like, oh no, we couldn't have them anyway. So how about the weather? No, not really like that. But try not to be defensive. Try not to rush through it. Just more like, you know, it just wasn't in the cards for us, you know, very casual, very like is almost if it was your decision, you know, I know that's not true. And I, but I mean, that's the part where I'm saying like, I don't think you owe them that honesty. I don't want to do any of that. I don't want to make them feel weird. And I don't want to like give them too much honesty. I like, actually, how can I just like avoid this conversation? This specific subject altogether, but you can, you can, you can't, you might not be able to avoid the question, but you can avoid the conversation and, and, and, and you just have to practice that, you know, but again, like the real solution to this problem is, is to deal with this pain, um, and process it and work through it and just try to get to, you know, you're, you may never, like, you know, you might, you never feel good about this, but you definitely get to a place where you've accepted your life and and when you say things like i got an amazing husband and and yada yada yada that it really you know not that you're not grateful now but i literally just got off a call with someone who has a child with a man who is just like i don't feel like i have a partner i feel like i have it's like it's she would do anything it's not you know for what you have a partner um and like that's unfortunately the life is this unfair um and i guess you know i just want you to get to a better place where you might always be sad about this truth that you have but not so much so that stops you from and i'm not saying you don't appreciate your life but like to to feel more joy about the life that you have because right now it's just this very heavy pain that you've been holding on to that you haven't been able to process and in a way that allows you to just you know be at peace you know so that when it does come up it does it's not as triggering as it is now so that when you know when it does come up you can just give the answer and not have it be a whole emotional thing you have to carry for the rest of the day and and kind of you know it's like right now it's like you know the person who got cheated on and they're like you know they're heartbroken of it and they go you know and it's just like but now every time they're like so you you're in a relationship and like that's just triggering for that person because it just brings up the pain of the cheating and then like their day is ruined you know it's just like they probably they're like three or four had three or four days and i don't have to think about my ex or whatever or the pain that it caused me and then someone asked me a question and you spiral and that's kind of where you are now you know it's just like you just because you just haven't really got to that place of just being like it's not ideal it's not what i wanted for myself and you accept it it's not oh it's not you're over it you'll never be over it um yeah but you can get to a place where you're like i'm not where it's it's not as triggering and it's not as it doesn't feel as heavy and you don't judge yourself for an entire day every time it comes up and and and put all this like unnecessary weight on on your heart so to speak yeah it's like it just sticks in my in my throat yeah the whole time it's almost like i need to like wear a rubber band i'm like snap myself every time like i start to feel yeah choked i really i really feel strongly about you need to find a community and i think you need to find a community and i think you need to find a community and i think you need to find people who can relate to you who have who have gone through this journey successfully and are on the other side of it in a better place who can help you through this because again i can there's only much so much i can say uh from like a just a practical standpoint but this is all this is this all emotional this is all something that you just have to try to get through and i i think i can offer very little and how how you can do that i thought you know you've done great you've done a good job and i reached out because a like i knew you had the sales background and then also to the struggles that you and natalie had to i'm sure there was a lot of sensitive conversations or questions that people had well absolutely well many intentions and still was you know felt triggering too so i thought maybe that would help yeah i mean like listen especially natalie even family members said some crazy shit to her and it was like how would you why would you say that but like they're not thinking about it it's just out of sight out of mind and you know but yeah but all of that is because you can't control and you know how other people think and feel and and again everyone else is in their own head and everyone else is more focused on their problems they're not thinking about your problems and that you know that does record why not i'm just kidding the world we live in i would love to see you try to not muscle through this it's not going to just go away um and yeah just acknowledge that this is a real painful thing that you you have to process there's got to be a community out there for you yeah no that's a good suggestion i hadn't thought about doing that so yeah and you might make some really meaningful relationships out of that you know they they probably can offer you just no doubt i'm sure there's people listening to this who can relate i definitely just would i think you can also find it on your own stay out of the comments yeah no i agree and i'm sure there is you know some at least some something a book or you know i don't know something try try yeah for sure try something but i nothing beats an actual friend yeah or a human being and someone who can just like hold your hand and be like i know exactly how you feel and and and some levels there's nothing i'm gonna be able to say to make you feel better but i can't offer you x y or z that and this helped me yeah um and you know i think that would be the only friend without kids too which doesn't help yeah you know yeah and then what and the friends that don't have kids they're like on the other side of it like meaning like they don't want them because they don't want them like that's their choice and or they're you know single or something you know in that situation but like yeah it's just it's so raw and it's really like i would like to think i'm a pretty strong person and other aspects but this it's like my achilles heel like big time yeah because it's it's power you're powerless you know there's literally nothing especially if you're in sales you have generally some kind of problem solving part of your brain and and this is a problem you can't solve and for people like us that's very difficult to solve and i think that's a really very difficult to deal with yeah it's it's like why did i wait so long so like if anybody's even thinking about this it's hearing this like go get your eggs freezed i wish that that was more popular for like when i was younger you don't even know if that would have been would have solved your problem oh could have i could have been an opportunity maybe i know but we're again i'm not the expert here so maybe i i do think on some level you have to accept that your past relitigating your choices in the past and like you even said early in the call you always knew it was going to be a challenge and yes maybe there are things you can do or you could have done but you know you don't you don't know that and i don't think there's going to be much to be gained from beating yourself up about not having the benefit of hindsight yeah it's more just sad yeah but you might not have had the partner you have oh i don't know what i would do with her that's for sure but you know what i'm saying like you you definitely could have made different choices 15 years ago in your life and those are big choices and in and you could have had a kid with someone else god nightmare and just let alone forget about your ex-husband maybe you just chose to do it by yourself you know and again like i don't know how you met your husband but like it happened at a specific time in a specific moment and i'm just a big believer in like the butterfly effect type of thing like you know and so you if you're gonna sit there and litigate the past and you're gonna beat yourself up about choices you didn't make you need to acknowledge that it would in my dad's in his 70s and he's at the stage of his life where he is kind of like reflecting back and you know he he gave his whole life to his kids they have 10 kids and i think both my mom and my dad have a certain levels of wishing they could have accomplished more for themselves um on uncertain levels and my dad kind of made a comment i was like well you know yeah definitely true and you know me being the second oldest i'm good but like uh it sounds like maybe if you would have done that you you know all you know eight of your kids might not have existed so maybe i don't know like you could just i was having a hard time conversations private you know but it was like you know you do you you have to acknowledge that you have a lot going on and a lot of things that you love and you're grateful for and and these things you wish you would have done have done differently could have drastically changed what you have and and maybe and and that is just a fact yeah you know to say and and assume that if you froze your eggs and and and would have made different choices that allowed you to be a mom earlier in life it could have changed everything else about your life that you have today meeting him is really what made me you know kind of think of things differently you know obviously like man like seeing that man hold a newborn or a baby it's like ovary exploder and he's just such a good dad um so i know i know i would have had or if we would have had a baby i would have had like a great partner you know to do it with and again i think i would find this community because i think they might have solutions that i can't thinking of but i just if you're interested i think there are definitely probably ways that you can i guess scratch that maternal itch so to speak i don't i don't i don't know what that looks like but you do have friends who have kids you can i love other people's kids right and so and again i know it's i know it doesn't replace having your own but it's time for you to start moving forward and you need help to do that and you've beaten yourself up about this for too long and obviously it is affecting you in ways that you don't want it to affect you yeah and and you are going to have to you know process it and and deal with it somehow somehow but you haven't really as you acknowledge done any of that you know you've you've just you've done a lot of therapy you've just been hurting for three years probably feeling very alone yeah and you've just hoped it would go away but you haven't really let it go away because you've constantly obsessed over this truth it just keeps getting like i keep getting reminded of it so like maybe that's the part that i need help with it's just what to like how to pivot my response you know as far as like internally well i would say again not expert here but like i think the thing you need to help with most is the acceptance part i think you need to accept this in a way and i i don't i can't help you that but i think there are people out there who who can and it might be a long journey but i don't think you've done much in the trying to accept this and and i understand me so why would you want to accept why why would anyone want to accept this it's it's not easy thing to accept um but that is the path forward for you yeah yeah thank you i appreciate it so much um i will start looking for you know some communities or podcasts or whatever i can find that i think could help you know just at least have a hear somebody else's story maybe yeah it would help too yeah i think that would go a long way and i would just try to find a good therapist who you think can really really gets this you know you feel like you're really and i'm sure it might take a couple tries but and they do exist i'm sure there's a million of them so i'm i just you know just got to find it so i haven't started so that's another that's maybe that's what this was maybe this is like i just didn't even know where to start yeah there you go um in the meantime try at work to just remind yourself you're the only one who's going to make it weird is you so if you're trying to avoid an uncomfortable conversation you know like just just you don't owe them anything other than you could just say no it just wasn't in the cards for us yeah yeah i mean the good thing is that like so their conferences you know so and they're not as frequent so um you know it's not like it's an everyday thing that i have it like to have to face it um so you know have opportunities to like arm myself and get better and like try to process it before the next one and then maybe check in with myself to see how i did and really grade my paper honestly and well yeah so but it sounds like you you you know when it's about to come and then you you hype yourself up and you get a little like you know it's anxious yes that's for sure yeah well thank you you know like this is like i said i just didn't even know where to start so maybe this was what my way of like yeah taking the first step well you know when you you call into me you're tight i think for anyone who calls in the show they are tired of feeling how they've been feeling yeah yeah and that's the only thing i'm good at is helping people get unstuck but um not necessarily at it so thank you you have a very empathetic ear and i appreciate that i appreciate you saying that but uh yeah just um it's time to move forward yes it is but give yourself some grace and it's going to take some time but just try to try to not keep doing this which is to just ruminate obsessively and constantly and yeah i mean and also it's not like it's every day like i'm not sitting on next to my husband on the couch like thinking like why don't we have a baby you know like we could be doing this if we didn't have if we had a baby it's really just like when it gets thrown in my face yeah it's like anytime you're gonna you know anytime you get triggered which is far too often for for you yeah and and understandably so yeah yeah thank you i really appreciate it all right well i appreciate you again on the twins twin life is fun it's they're fraternal too so and listen like at your comfort level and obviously mom's comfort level like give yourself a break and and just try to be a cool friend to these teenagers and just try to be you know you hear all these stories about like and i'll leave you with this but i don't i don't know if this makes any sense but i i saw like you know some instagram posts about like the important like why at different stages you know your kids will like you know right now we're we're river's world and like she'll get to a certain age and like she'll stop listening to it it was it was basically the importance of of who your kids make friends with um and they talked about the importance because at some stage in life they won't want to listen to us and there's some kind of like biological like you know reason is because you know it's it's part of you know kids becoming more independent and so they'll be resistant to listening to their parents um and so they might be more willing to listen to your their friends and their friends parents uh and things like that and so you can be the cool friend and when they don't want to listen to mom um especially if you are have a like a positive relationship with her and you're you know obviously you're you know what she cares about and what her boundaries and her rules are and you're not necessarily giving advice that's antithetical or whatever opposite of what she would want but like you could be that person that they're more willing to listen to than than mom because mom's mom you know so like they're and you're not stepping on our toes i mean there's again like you you can thread that needle um every situation is different but right now you're not even giving yourself the opportunity to feel like you can add value in their lives because you're so worried about you know stepping on her toes or their toes and my guess is there's more it's more his time that i try to respect with them because like you know he doesn't get to see him so yeah well you i mean you don't have to be a parent again you can just you can be a just have some kind of relationship you know yeah no a little yeah i mean it's not like i ignore them completely um but you know it's i also don't want to push you know i don't want to force so i am here you know and there have been certain times especially in the last couple of years which i'm sure you can imagine what i'm speaking of but like where why i tried to be that friend but it's like you don't want dad going out and buying you sure pants like come to me you know kind of thing and when that was all going on and that helped but you know they're getting busier they're getting you know getting busy with school and sports and all that stuff and you know i'm i had i am around i just don't interject i guess i know but like just give yourself some grace is all i'm saying because i just everyone needs as many friends as possible and and everyone every kid needs good role models and and and everyone feels alone so the more the merrier and just be someone that they feel like they have in their life and maybe it's not frequent and maybe it's not your their your their first option but if shit hits the fan they're like you know what i could even ask her she would care you know she cares about my well-being and like every kid wants to know that they have people in their life that cares about them and that doesn't replace mom or dad and so i think you can i think you can feel valuable in that regard and and just be a little bit more open to allowing you to feel that way and not be so self-conscious about step you're not going to step on anyone's toes and god forbid you do they'll let you know yeah you know yeah that's helpful no and yeah i can definitely do better in that department but all right um thank you so much i appreciate it and it's so strange it's like i literally was just listening to you my headphones for today's episode that came out just a couple friends talking so i appreciate your call i appreciate your vulnerability um and just yeah try to try to move forward you know you you are tired of feeling this way i am uh now you just have to do something about it and that's the hard part you know it's just like we get so comfortable feeling sad and feeling down it becomes an identity and and that's kind of where you're at yeah but this specific subject for sure yeah all right well thank you all right i appreciate it all right appreciate you all right love on those little babies for me all right thanks so much i will all right bye-bye bye most dog food brands don't really want you seeing how their food is made just food for dogs is the opposite they actually invite you in you can walk into any of their kitchens and see real human grade ingredients like chicken beef carrots and peas being prepared right in front of you it's real food made in real kitchens nothing is hidden behind labels and that kind of transparency says a lot nothing to hide everything to love go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50 off your first order emotional processing and wellness are about self-care and discovery bring immediate dopamine boosting joy to your daily journaling with the g2 smiley world collection from pilot combining the smooth vibrant g2 gel writing experience with smiling emoticons that can activate the same brain response as a real smile they're designed to help elevate your mood and bring positivity to your writing find g2 smiley world at target today g2 smiley world write happier how's it going good how are you good what's your name my name is sophie i am 24 and i'm going to and i am wondering what to do about my toxic ex from 2021 following my friends on instagram while i'm in a healthy two-year-long relationship okay outside of him following your friends on instagram what else is he doing that's annoying you so this started in april he reached out to me saying hi i have something to confess i stole your chick-fil-a points and i've been thinking about you can we talk okay great intro um I decided that I'm not one to do texting. I'm not going to engage in a back and forth. So I decided I would give him an opportunity to talk to me on the phone. That went nowhere. He really had nothing to say. He said I sounded upset, that he thought I would have a different energy. And we ended that call with me blocking him, as I said I would do. And then a month later, he requested to follow one friend. A week after that, another one. And it's kind of been pretty consistent from there. Are there friends accepting these requests or? No, they're screenshotting me, screenshotting them, sending them to me, and then that's it. So other than it being annoying, what's the problem? How is it affecting you? This was a really toxic person in my life. Okay. Like extremely. Okay. Something that I've had to do a lot of work on to come out of that. And now being in a healthy relationship, there's a lot of people that I've had to do a lot of work on to come out of that. There are still things that I carry with me. So him doing this, I've told my friends now, hey, I don't need to know anymore. Like if it happens, ignore it. Okay, great. But every so often, I still get it from a friend who like I haven't talked to in a while, who's like, hey, this is really weird. And it makes me spiral. I get really upset. And I don't really know what to do. Why do you think you spiral? Like what's the feeling that you start feeling? Like what's the? Anxiety. I also get really upset that he's even trying to somehow weasel his way into my life. That's what it feels like. Sure. I mean, I imagine like when this relationship existed, that you felt powerless at times and he would try to insert his power or like and wouldn't kind of respect your wishes and stuff like that. Oh, absolutely. I was so isolated from my friends and family that I couldn't wear my hair certain ways. I couldn't dress certain ways. I couldn't wear my hair certain ways. So this kind of just feels like I don't have control over the situation. And for a while, what I wanted to do was unblock him, call him up and chew him out and be like, why do you continue to do this? Yeah. So I don't know if that's the right way to go about it. No, no, no, no, no. I didn't. Good. Good. Because that would be that's exactly what he wants. Right. Like and so. Right. I'm sure like a therapist or an expert would have a more clinical way of saying what I think I'm trying to say is I don't need the faux details of of this relationship. But again, it sounded like it really was difficult for you and something you had to survive and get through. Right. Like you. I imagine there was a point in while you were still with this guy and you knew you were in a bad situation and you needed to get out, but you didn't really feel like you knew how to get out. Right. Of course. And, you know, you probably felt very powerless. Right. So my guess is that when he does. Reach out and is doing this, that version of you that was with him, you feel her. Right. It's like in. But you just I guess this is important to not lose sight that you're not that person anymore. And you did the you did the difficult thing, which is to leave. Right. And you found this other relationship and you do have a community of friends. And he is literally desperate to try to get that kind of access. Right. And I think that's what he's trying to do. Right. He wants you to unlock them and he wants to talk to you. And he wants to be able to say things to you. And he wants to affect you. And now, yes, him following your friends affects you. And you don't have control over who he follows on social media. But he doesn't know how it's affecting you. The fact that you told your friends not to tell you anymore is even better because at the risk of they tell you, you get upset somehow accidentally. They tell a friend, they tell him and he would have found out that he's that you're annoyed that he's doing this. The thing that drives him the most nuts, I can guarantee you, is the idea that you haven't found this out, that you don't care, that he's going through all this effort and you're completely oblivious to this fact that he's doing this, that that would hurt him the most. Yeah, I think that part of me obviously wants to call him. And the part that's really frustrating to me is that I gave him the opportunity I kept using that word. I was like, you have an opportunity to speak to me. And I will hear you out. Whatever it is you want to say, I will hear you out. And I will respond. And then when I got on that phone call, it was absolutely nothing. He had nothing to say. Yeah. So I guess my thing is, is like, am I just out of curiosity? Why energy? Of course. Yeah, of course. Yeah, you are. But like, that's what we all do. Right? Right. Yes, I do want you to recognize that you are giving this way too much of your energy. Okay. If you leave with this call with no other knowledge as to that as to just when you when you get caught up in his bullshit, to recognize that it is bullshit, and that the best thing you can do is try to focus your energy on and literally anything else. Okay, I would give yourself the grace that while you did find the strength to leave this relationship, you were affected by it. And there was probably some like unresolved trauma that you had from this. This was a person, I assume, that you cared about, even though he was who he was and treated the way he did. And I'm sure you wanted the best for him. And I'm sure you wanted some acknowledgement to why he was the way he was in that relationship. But you don't need that. You literally don't need that. You've proven to yourself, you don't need him to say anything. And you don't need closure to move forward. With your life. You didn't need it to find a better relationship. You didn't need it to find more friends. You didn't you just you didn't need it. It might have been nice. Maybe if you got on the phone with him, there must be a part of you that thinks that there's something he could say that would make you feel better for giving him so many chances. Yeah, and that like he's not like some monster. And that would almost make you feel less guilty about the choices you made that ultimately played a role into this unhappy period in your time. Is that am I anywhere close to that? Yeah, I think that's spot on. I think that I've had to take a lot of accountability for the choices I made while in that relationship. I lost my best friend, I isolated myself from my family, and I had to go back and rebuild those relationships. And it felt like there was never any accountability for him from the way that he treated me. Yeah. And I almost want that in a way, even though I am in a healthy relationship, even though I have my friends and family back, I feel like he didn't even have to do anything. And now he's still coming back and messing with me. Five years later, which is ridiculous. It is ridiculous. But like that's you need to like lean into that part of ridiculousness, you know, again, but put it this way. It takes a lot to do what you did, which is to be in a bad situation, especially in a situation that sounds like you had very little control over. And he was, to summarize, just a really terrible partner to you in the world right now, when many people are in these situations is to do nothing but empathize and to validate and to acknowledge that you're the victim of this situation. And that might all be true. Right. But as you know, from your own personal experience, it required you to take some accountability for the choices you made. Certainly you made these choices as a result of his behavior, but nevertheless, you still had to take accountability. And that accountability allowed you to mend relationships that are very meaningful to you, that you were worried that you might not have a chance to reconcile and you were able to reconcile. Right. And it required that accountability for you to do that. And I guess the part of you that needs him to take ownership almost steals a little of that power and that agency that you came up with. Right. something he's either unwilling or incapable to give you and the thing that you want you just don't need you've already proven to yourself you don't need it there's nothing he could offer you that would change anything you know other than like what you already know is what you weren't crazy you know um yeah no and that's i think that's a big part of it i also think i feel really guilty because i am in such a loving and healthy relationship that like when these things arise and i am either upset or he's followed another friend on instagram i don't want to share that with my partner because i don't want it to upset him and he doesn't get upset he's very supportive and helpful but i just it makes me upset for the current relationship that i'm in that i feels like i almost have to like be secretive or like well whatever share this part of what's going on with me yeah well the fact that he doesn't get upset is great but whatever part of you that is thinking about this that is some unresolved shit that you have and i'm just here to tell you he's not going to resolve it there's nothing he can do to help you it's just it's going to be more of the same which is you had the strength and the ability to get over to get out and move on and move forward you know you've really done it all but there's this last bit for whatever reason you you haven't been able to completely let go and him like for example i mentioned that you know that ex-girlfriend you know so long ago right so like let's say she just started following a bunch of people i know and somehow i picked up on it like i would find it to be a little weird but i would just be like so like it would be i would it would be like i guess okay i would be so you know like because it's such a it would be like a stranger following a bunch of people i know because she is a stranger to me he's not a stranger to you yet well i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like i would be like one of my best friends told me she was like you this was five years ago that we broke up she was like you were a different person yeah than that 19 year old self you were not that same person at all he doesn't know you yeah and some of that was like somewhat relieving and then a part of it was like then why like does he think that he knows me sure yeah i mean in his mind you're still the same person okay i guess it's true he doesn't sound like he's very um self-aware or reflective so yeah he very much thinks you're exactly that person and whatever part of you that is letting this guy get under your skin that person still exists right and again if you were to that part of you that took him up on his offer and gave him the the chance to have that phone call that he was very familiar with that that one brief moment he had with you you were the one that he was very familiar with that one brief moment he had with you that person because that person you know he's so used to you giving him unlimited chances and the part of him as soon as i got on the phone call i regretted yeah my choice because i realized there was nothing that was going to be said that was going to do no harm no foul but again i just want you to recognize that like what you've come a long way you have maybe just a little bit more to go and that little bit more to go is to really just let it all go just let him go let him live his life it has literally nothing to do with yours the only thing that you can do is let him go and power you give him is to let it bug you sounds like you have great friends short of you having friends that you don't trust or that somehow go behind your back or or let him in doesn't sound like you have to worry about that this guy has no power the only power he has is the power you give him and and you are giving him some power by you know wasting your energy talking about him yeah and and and feeling like you can't be listen i'd love to get to a point where you it doesn't bother you so you don't tell your boyfriend because but you just don't want to tell your boyfriend don't care and it's not like it's like there's nothing to tell him but you don't want to tell him because the part that you doesn't want to tell him is the part of you that knows that like you're thinking about it more than you should and not because you care about him or not because you know like that's the thing that you're kind of juggling mentally it's just like well i don't want to tell him because i don't want to worry him i don't want to think something that's not true which is that i care about him or his feelings and so you don't tell him but it's it listen like everyone has a toxic ex and and your boyfriend should be the person to be like it's just like so annoying i don't know like whatever you should be able to tell him that's pretty much his answer every time yeah is that this is just but you do have you clearly have some kind of guilt like and the guilt is you think there's something he can say your ex that will make you feel better yeah and that's the part you need to like let go of and accept every time i get a message from him or someone tells me that he tried to follow it literally makes me feel like the 19 year old girl i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god that i was yeah where i'm like oh god what's going on yeah no it makes sense yeah maybe talk to some about it i don't know maybe a good therapist could help you with that i do that do you talk do you talk about this this normally doesn't come up yeah i have okay this hasn't been an issue for a while i would say when i first started dating my boyfriend currently my ex had reached out to me like right when we started dating it feels like that always happens like people somehow come out of the woodwork sure as soon as they know you're in a relationship and he said that he would never forget me and i didn't respond i didn't think of it and i think one other time he like tried to add me on snapchat which i like don't even have anymore so it's not an issue and then this spring it got brought up again and my therapist just said like it makes sense that i feel like that small 19 year old girl but i've put in a lot of work to not be that anymore she's still lives in me and you know i can't let go of all of the hurt that he caused or the like bad habits that i learned from that relationship but ultimately like i really do just have to let it go which is what you were saying and i figured you would say as well but it's yeah but to that point it's annoying yeah but sometimes we just have to accept the things that are annoying and not give it the oxygen it doesn't deserve which is again your your thoughts takes energy to think about things you thinking about this you could be thinking about anything else you could be learning another language with all the energy you've put into thinking about this acknowledging that and having the self-awareness be like i should i should stop and if you can't stop then that's the signal that you might need to you might need help or a friend or a therapist to just check you and just try to get you out of your head but for the most part yeah give yourself a little bit of grace and just not give in and you know and it doesn't sound like you are doing it but you just do the thing where you get good at convincing yourself to do something you know deep down you shouldn't do but you come up with the excuse of why you're going to do it anyways which is kind of what you did when you gave him the opportunity when you when you took that call when he first started it was like three weeks in a row that he had requested yeah he'll listen he'll at the end he'll he'll eventually stop he'll eventually stop long past when you thought think it's normal it's been five years you taking that call set you both back so to speak because it gave him a false sense of hope and power and it brought you it it brought back that like you said that 19 year old girl and it kind of like it it was a bit of a step back but the longer you go without giving this any oxygen and letting him in any way shape or form making him feel that he can still get you to respond you know and that's what that's that's why he's doing all these things he just he wants you to acknowledge his existence and he's desperate yeah but eventually he'll quit i'm like do i have to get married in order for this to end like it like will and the thing is i kept my instagram public i didn't know you you just you have to you have to stop doing you have to stop doing this okay it'll end when you mentally stop ruminating over it and letting it get under your skin yeah yeah that's just really annoying that it's five years i know but like who cares it hasn't been five years since you've spoken to him you know and like i said it did it did it did set it did set both of you back a little bit it let him know he could you could still be gotten to and this is a this is a person that it sounds like most of his relationship uh was trying to extra like knowing that he could and knowing that he could get away with things and knowing that he you know whatever he was doing he doesn't want to give up that yeah and so it may it gave him a little false sense of hope and power over you in a way that like kind of energized him and got him to start you know and that's why he's doing the you know i'm guessing if you didn't take that call he might not be following your friends yeah if you just never acknowledge acknowledged it yeah i should have just blocked him i should have blocked him a long time ago yeah but listen water under the bridge it's over now it's again he's not in your life he's not a part of your relationship he's not a part of your friend group you just have to that's the thing you just got to try to do is to not catch yourself when it bothers you and just say stop it you know which i know it's hard to do and if you need one friend to talk about this too fine have the one friend but don't have five friends you talk about you know you don't need five different opinions you have to know that you're doing the right thing and you have to accept that you can't control him you can only control yourself which is you are doing most you are doing so much of this already you're just it's just you're not going all the way you're all the way thank you yeah it's taken a lot of therapy to get here yeah and which is why i wanted to do the phone call because i was like oh well i'm not going to engage in text messages but then i yeah yeah that was a party that was a little like a little like you know the the chaos part of you that was like yeah fuck it let's like you know it was well yeah i was like sure go ahead say what you want to say i'm blocking you either way but i want to know what you want to say yeah it was yeah that's a little bit of little chaos um yes and you not being interested in what he has to say is what you really need the point you need to get to because whatever i don't know what he could say but whatever you think you you need him to say well it's not what's it going to change yeah nothing i guess you know not gonna like make you ever regret anything it's like all it would all it would signal is that maybe he's made some personal progress in his life and good for him but that's not your problem anymore yeah it's not going to change how you feel it's not like you're gonna make it's not gonna make you want him back it would be like oh well hey i'm glad you you've grown up a little bit but that's that's not your problem and you don't doesn't change anything yeah it's just uh my therapist says i'm the only one who can fix the hurt he caused which i didn't really like to hear yeah that's probably true i think that's dumb and people should take accountability for their actions when they're terrible human beings but he should but that's his journey it's not your problem anymore and the more you make it that you're really stuck on is the part that keeps you in that relationship and you don't want to be in that relationship and it pisses you off anytime you feel like you are in that relationship that's the part you do have control over yes and unfortunately it is going to be your burden and cross to bear to heal in ways that he's you know he's not you know if you wanted to be in this relationship then yeah on some level it would be his responsibility to take ownership so that you guys can move forward as a couple but you don't want to be a couple you know you're not you your lives are there's no aspect of of your life that has anything to do with anymore it's all in the past so you got to let that you got to leave it in the past and then deal with whatever you have to deal with that allows you to like let that weight off your shoulders um okay you have to accept that he did what he did you don't have to be okay with it you don't you don't you know but it's not giving him the power to still have access to you and he just has a little bit of access and access can even come from the fact that he can get under your skin but it's just true you can do that very easily so i did write a letter and i should just throw a letter away burn it burn it burn it yeah i know we mean read read it i don't know i don't know what it says but maybe read it one more time ask yours i would be curious like ask yourself what part of those do you want him to hear the most in that letter and then recognize kind of what your therapist is saying that's maybe what you need to hear the most like that's the part that you're still stuck on and that's the part you need to like work on and process and let go okay but you definitely should not send that letter i will not send a lot that would be that would be such a trophy for him it's been sitting uh yeah but that you burn it burn it okay i will print it and burn it yeah and delete it sure i mean i would do do less you try not to have a whole serenity i mean like if it is an email then delete it you don't you know don't you don't okay but you know may maybe read it one more time again okay so i'll delete it i'll delete it after i read it one more time okay so i'll delete it after i read it one more time because my guess is in that letter is like the secret to whatever is keeping you stuck okay and that's the thing you need to let go of and process whatever acknowledgement you're hoping for you know and things like that the secret is probably in that letter but it is not for him to read it is for you to understand and let go okay i like that advice yeah okay i'll delete it after i read it one more time all right all right i wasn't well i wasn't maybe gonna send it but then i was like no it did feel like it was a letter for myself when i after i read it for sure they always are i mean the history of of breakups these letters have never accomplished the thing we thought we wanted to accomplish but it is that is you know it's it's the closure you need so and you're not going to get it from him you are going to get it from you just accepting that this happened it wasn't okay it wasn't right but you got through it and you did it on your own and you didn't need his permission or his help to get over it and get through it and that's the mindset you should keep leaning towards not the mindset that you you still need something from him to completely let go you don't thank you for saying that all right uh hopefully this is awful it was okay i think i needed this advice i you were pretty spot on with what i thought you would say that good i should let go and not deal with it and i love this podcast so thanks for having me well thanks for thanks for listening and thanks for calling in the the the trick for you is to like it's going to be those those small moments where it's just he pops in and you to catch yourself and you to kind of say stop it and let it go and you know just let it go it won't be necessarily easy but you got to try and it's just like it's exercising any muscle is to like not allow yourself to ruminate it to acknowledge that the ruminating isn't going to get you anywhere so you don't let yourself ruminate and you'll have you'll pop in and out of that but you just got to catch yourself because it's not something that just happens overnight you're just going to go cold turkey yeah from having thoughts not popping your head but you can get better at not indulging in it i will work on it okay all right good luck thank you so much and congratulations on the babies i appreciate it thank you so much bye