E1167 - Trad Wife Hysteria, Married At First Sight w/ Dr. Lisa & Unpacking Bravo Relationships w/ Dr. Baker

Most dog food brands don't really want you seeing how their food is made. Just Food for Dogs is the opposite. They actually invite you in. You can walk into any of their kitchens and see real human-grade ingredients like chicken, beef, carrots, and peas being prepared right in front of you. It's real food made in real kitchens. Nothing is hidden behind labels. And that kind of transparency says a lot. Nothing to hide, everything to love. Go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50% off your first order. Your morning rituals can set the trajectory for your day. Optimize your morning routine and feel your mindset with the G2 Boost collection from Pilot. Powered by the science of color, these premium gel pens feature curated colors designed to power your day. Blue for productivity, purple for creativity, and pink for optimism. Go grab your pack of G2 Boost today at Walmart. G2 Boost. Cues to power you. What's going on, everybody? Welcome back to another exciting episode of The Vow Files. I'm your host, Nick. Joined by the household, we got Sierra, Susie, Mary, Bailey, Justin are all in the room. How are you guys? Doing fantastic. I got so much to talk about so much on my mind. We do have a jam packed episode for you. We dove into Married at First Sight, the Love Island show that we all watched stopped. And then Peacock was like, here, something else, here's something else you might be interested in. Boy, are we, I know we've been late to the Married at First Sight hype. Um, what a, what a fun there's so there's 90 day fiance and then there's Married at First Sight, right? Like our, and I'm a huge 90 day fiance. What is that? And, and give me. Give me the biggest difference between the two. Like a couple that goes on a K-1 visa, one person's coming from a different country to get married within 90 days, but it's like they met up. But is it always a different country? Uh, it's always, yeah, like it's like either, uh, 90 day fiance is usually them coming to America, then you have the other way, which is somebody from America going to live in their country. It's just. That is a big part of the show. It's the, the, like the main part of the show. The premise. Yeah. Really? And then we follow these couples. Some of these couples have been on the show for years and there's so many spinoffs. So it's just like how they've assimilated to life. Yeah. Yeah. Them having children. Like. They follow them. There's like after the first 90 days. Yeah. There's a lot of spinoffs and it's just like really interesting to see how couples assimilate from different backgrounds. Have we been sleeping on that? I think so. I've been, I've been campaigning for that for years. There are some characters. Not loud enough. I don't know what you're talking about Sierra talks to me about 90 day fiance. Sometimes I feel like I've seen it. Anyway, Married at First Sight, a show where people just like episode one, get married. Yeah. Married. It feels like less of a hate watch. Like you know how you're watching shows and you're just like so angry at the couples cause you're like, this is so toxic. Like right now we're a couple, but four episodes and five episodes and I'm like, Oh, this could work. I have this show weirdly is like, I think it's because you see the matchmaking process. Like I can suspend my disbelief a little bit more where I would normally be a lot more judgmental and a love is blind situation. Dr. Lisa, one of the experts on Married at First Sight, it joins us and we get to talk with her about the whole show, the premise, and that will be later this episode. I think you all will really enjoy that conversation with Dr. Lisa. We also have Dr. Pamela Baker. It's a, it's a full on doctor expert relationship show. This episode we were talking about in the city, the reunion, and we're talking about Kyle and Amanda's marriage or lack thereof and their lack of intimacy. And what did I, we were, what was I saying? I was saying some shit. I had a take. You were talking about sex and then not having sex. Yeah. What was Amanda holding out and was that causing distress in the marriage and then love languages and then we were making a bunch of theories and guesses and, and, and, and, and, and takes on what, what led to this fallout between Amanda and Kyle. And then we were like, I don't know if there's an expert listening chime in the comments. Give us a call. Help us out. Dr. Baker. She raised her hand. And, uh, so she will be joining us, uh, shortly to, uh, give an expert opinion. Okay. Volunteers. Uh, on Kyle and Amanda's relationship and what might we be able to learn from these crazy kids on reality TV and, uh, hopefully Dr. Baker can guide us through, you know, cause that's what we really want to do on this show is if, if no, have some fun and maybe learn a little bit along the way over the weekend, I I'm, I've been, I'm guys, I'm obsessed with this trad wife conversation. I was hoping you were going to bring that up because I had a question about it last week. Nora Smith went and call her daddy. I knew who Nora Smith was. I'm more familiar. I'm more familiar with her husband. Lucky blue. Is it lucky blue? Lucky early in my like bachelor reality TV days, I met a person who I think worked with him and like, she made me like, but he's like, you know how like Bryce, like male model for Calvin Klein. That's a big deal. But like, lucky is he's like the Zooland, like he is like Zoolander IRL, not, I'm not speaking to the caricature that is Zoolander famous model, but like literally the super model fan. I mean, he is massive. Like, I just know that about him anyways. They're married. Nora is, uh, also. Also a model, very successful model and, and her and lucky have a family together. I, I, I kind of knew all this just from afar. I don't follow her, but apparently she went and call her daddy in there and the whole conversation about like tread wife came on, came up. She likes to make pies and food. It's not, you know, for her family, uh, her, it sounds like also her family has gone through some, some tragedy. She has some autoimmune stuff. That's why she, I mean, but either way she likes to cook. Have you never seen her videos? I think I've seen phenomenal. Yeah. I think, I think I've seen them. I haven't like really studied them. It sounds like it also appears that she also like sundresses and she has, she's aesthetically pleasing. She's wearing like Schiaparelli and I only became, I only became aware of the trad wife kind of moniker when we had a guest come on a comedian. I think she was trying to tease me, but like, she was like, oh, you look like a guy who'd want a, a trad wife or something, which I thought was ironic since my wife was literally here at work with me. And the point is, it seems like my understanding of trad wife, it's meant to be, it's a divisive term, term these days. And here's, and I, I'm no expert. So like, you know, I know for anyone, this is, but that this Nara Smith conversation went off the rails on the internet and it makes no sense to me. And so first it seems like you have a group of people who identify as trad wives. They're like, I'm a trad wife. And apparently they're like, I guess it's, you know, traditional, like their, their whole, their whole shtick is like. I'm, I'm going to do all the traditional, I'm going to cook, clean all the things from my- Free Van de Kamp from Desperate Housewives. Free Van de Kamp from Desperate Housewives. I'm going to lean into the very old traditional ways of- Yeah. Making us a buko starting in the morning for dinner. And I imagine some of these trad wives are aspiring trad wives and then, and actual people who are claiming to be, they have husbands, they're, they're, they're actual wives. Well, you can't be single and be a trad wife. That's- Can't you be like an aspiring trad wife? Can't you be like, I'm an- A trad wife in the making. Yeah. I have a girlfriend, I guess. I make pies and I wear sun, like, can't you? Are there, are there no- Well, at that point, Nick, you just open a bakery. Yeah. I'm like, what is the, what is the trad wife- Are there no influences out there being like, hey, hey, trad wife here. I think the difference between being like a food influencer and being a trad wife is truly a marriage certificate. Yeah. I'm like, are we making food for our family or are we making like cute little recipes for you to try at home even for one? Yeah. Well, what was so fascinating about the Nara Smith conversation is that she went on Call Her Daddy and she was like, yo, like, I just like doing this stuff. I, I, my life happened. I'm an influencer and I'm providing for my family. And what's so fascinating, what I thought was fascinating about this, like our culture is this, like, everyone labeled her and she basically came on this podcast and was like, stop labeling me. I'm just like, I'm just, I'm just here living my life. We get so obsessed with labels. Yeah. You know? And then like, and, and, and, and I think for so many people it meant, it means a lot of things. But I just find like, first of all, if for the, for the actual trad wife. The people who are like, Hey, I'm a trad wife and they're online and they're influencing the irony about that is like, they're, they're making money and they're providing for their family. And it's just like, well, huh? I think also it's important to acknowledge, like, I'm going to say right now, like, I don't know the origin of the door, the tradition. Like I want to be upfront that I don't have enough context of the conversation to like form an opinion. That's so headstrong one way or the other, but I think that the whole conversation in itself. I mean, if you're making millions of dollars online, posting content like that, you really aren't a trad wife. What does that even mean? Trad wife. Traditional wife. Well, maybe, maybe you are a trad wife, but I mean, but it's more so like, is there a moral obligation to disclose, like to people who are unaware of the industry and the amount of money people are making, like who look up to these people and aspire to have this same lifestyle? It's like, okay. If you want to, I don't know. I don't know. There's a moral obligation to display that. Trad wife is unique. You know, like she is literally an incredibly successful model with an incredibly successful husband. Career outside of this. She has a unique life as, as we all do. I think what I find so fascinating about the trad wife conversation is how just how online it is and how impractical in reality. I think it's such a, an example of just how much online discourse and how online like lifestyles don't reflect reality. Well, my mom, the funny thing is, um, so I talked to my mom and was like every day when I'm driving home and it's funny, girly is not online. really hates the internet she is like anti-social media so it's really funny that i do this for a living because she's always like all right i she'll watch the show sometimes and she's like i don't know what the fuck you're talking about but she you know is supportive but it's really funny because sometimes they'll bring up stuff to her that we talk about in the show and she'll get so mad at me and she'll be like that's so stupid that is not real life and i'm like well one like and i think that's why there's an entire environment of online stuff that like people talk about but that's why i'm so fascinated about this particular conversation because the more i learn about the more like like it's just not real life in the sense because no doubt there is a spectrum of the way people of relationships how like the roles we all play in relationships same sex marriages like men and women relationships and like you just like i don't know you you have different roles and then you have unfunded expectations about the things that you're doing and then you have different expectations about the things that you're doing and then you have unfunded expectations about the things that you're doing and then you have unfunded expectations about the things that you're doing and then you have unfunded expectations about the things that you're doing and then you and then you you you get together with them and often you realize that you know oh you you said you you said you were one way it turns out you're you're another way and then they're that whole negotiated and some people like they're you opt out of relationships they get divorced and things like that but it's just more like no doubt i am sure there are some highly traditional people out there that are really rigid in their expectations and there's like really you know misogynistic men who are like demand certain types of things versus like traditional women who you know but i think in reality especially when it comes to like parenting you know or it's just like i don't know you just in in in 2026 i mean it's more common than not to require a some a two-income household or just to like have to just to be able to like afford to have to afford life and even if you're lucky enough to not you know there's just so many responsibilities to make a house work and if you have kids and even if you're lucky enough to have help when it and and i just find it to be so funny the conversation because in reality i just think most people just have to like do what it takes to make a relationship work when i think of trad wife i think of mad men and i think of like that lifestyle show like a team well a 60s i think of like norman rockwell i think of like the american dream brie vandekamp is a perfect example like i think of i think trad white the actual trad wife is probably well she's probably responsible for spawning online but she's not posting necessarily she's not making money she lives in nantucket and has an amazing hydrangea yeah like the actual it's it's just really funny because it's like i don't i think it's traditional feminine it's people wanting to be like in a traditional feminine role and i guess it's the role part that i don't want it sure if you i think it's like if you want to do that period do whatever the fuck you want if you don't then don't do it the role part that i'm a little confused by because it's just more like you i like you could be a guy a single guy you can be like you know what someday i hope my wife makes me sandwiches for lunch i mean you can that could be a goal but then you might meet someone you might say something is crazy like yeah i just want you to make me sandwiches and then you get married and at some point you'll be like make your own fucking sandwich i don't fucking you know what i'm saying at some point life shows up and problems happen and as a couple whether you decide to have kids or not have kids or whatever like you just have to figure it out and i just find it just like in in reality i just find i think most relationships are just relationships and most couples aren't like even if even if that was a goal it's not reality it is just the way that people are obsessed with this this title in these and and and i guess and and can't can a progressive modern person woman or whatever still enjoy making pies or doing some more say traditional things and still be consider themselves modern or progressive in other aspects of their life and i think they can and should one of my i have like a fantasy where i'm just chefing it up for a beautiful woman i don't think that makes me a that's what i'm saying but that's what i that and our internet culture we want to label everyone we just want to we want to put everyone in these buckets it's just like people want to look at nara smith and look at her videos and they want to make a bunch of assumptions about who she is as a person how she raises her kids or maybe maybe her belief system her world views or whatever and it's just like i don't know maybe she's like i think it's just performative outrage to be completely honest like i'm just like i think we live in a world where anybody can pull out a camera at any point whether it's the highest of quality of content whether it's from my car selfie style going on a rant and people we have so many options nowadays to continue to scroll this doesn't work for me but instead i guess it gives a little dopamine hit or something to leave a snarky comment or say you're doing something wrong or have some sort of big feelings about it when it a girl wants to fucking make a piece of bread or gluten-free whatever and is telling you every organic ingredient she's gonna put in it dress nicely why does that bother you so bad right do you think it's satire like their whole thing is like i i feel like that people are so so ready to get upset yeah and i think that's what's frustrating as somebody that does content i'm like sometimes i think it would be easier and maybe better for my mental health to take on a persona and be like you know what i'm just gonna pretend to show up yeah as this thing literally my dream oh my god my dream but like something like that where you're like this actually removes me from the equation so any projection you put on me like actually has nothing to do with me but then obviously authenticity wins and as in the sense of like community but i do look at what she does and i'm like if you don't see what she's doing as satire then i'm like you're kind of missing the point like she's in a couture gown in her kitchen as if that would be a and maybe she dresses like that when she's not filming content but she also maybe does it also in sweatpants sometimes and when she's making content maybe she dresses up she's making she's making something she's like creating but i think that's like what people were upset about in the interview is that she like was like that's not me every day and it's just kind of like well no shit i just think it's just crazy to think that like somebody is constantly pulling out a phone and recording every like moment of their life you only see her making random dishes yeah and she loves the extravagance of it my kid wanted lucky charms so this morning i pulled out you know what i mean like it's a whole system that is just silly but like she does end up making quality amazing things i think it's because we're so obsessed with labels in our i mean another thing part of that conversation i was kind of made aware of like alex cooper obviously host of call her daddy very famous very successful person recently announced and she was pregnant and i turns out i didn't realize this because i'm not like following her audience that closely but people were pissed people were pissed what the f it was crazy and it was like yeah and it was like a and then there's like accusations on like like grifter accusations like even with like nara smith oh you you you are presenting one way but you're not told like you need to understand what a grifter actually is and duality but it's just more like what makes alex cooper so fascinating i think and hyper successful is her how she's evolved as a person this was a this was a woman who in her early 20s created this massive popular podcast that at the time in her life was a lot she was this single independent young woman who empowered other young women to feel good about talking about sex talking about sex or god forbid participating in hookup culture without the shame that often comes with it and and she made a lot of young women feel good about that well alex cooper got older you know and and then and then her show evolved her she's her show has evolved with her which i think from just from a business standpoint i find to be incredibly impressive and cool and just most people aren't able to pivot the way alex cooper has evolved alex cooper has in in life and then she got into a relationship and then she you know and i i don't like again follow her that close i've seen a couple interviews of alex cooper being like i don't know i'm not ready to have kids yet you know okay cool but she never said i don't want to have kids but it turns out it seemed like a lot of people who follow alex cooper like put this label on her is if that like if you want to talk about sex and women empowerment then then that means you have to like subscribe to this very specific lifestyle and i guess for some people that meant you can't have and i guess if she decided to have kids they accused her of like falsely representing some kind of i don't know specific lifestyle and it was like wait what huh can't people evolve can't like can't she be a 21 20 young 20 something year old person who at that time of her life wants different things for herself and as she gets older her her her her opinions change her decisions change and now she's going to be a mom who i that will continue to evolve and the way people are so mad at her for like just her her evolving as a person is crazy it's just the labels we put on each other and i think it's possible that she never did change like that maybe she always knew she wanted children but maybe she didn't talk about it because she was focused on her career her guests the people on her podcast like i think it's possible that she's wanted that and knew that was probably in her future but it reminds me also of hannah burner and then um i'm gonna mess with last name because i've never said out loud drew afa drew a follow i've never said her last name i but two like hysterical funny queens who just like they they talk some mad shit on men and and i love it and they have the funniest clips out there and they're two of the funniest like comedic women i i think that i follow but they both have loving husbands and they both talked about how people will literally go off on them and be like oh you talk this big game but then you both are not both but like you are married and they both are like yeah well like i love my husband and there's that doesn't mean i love yours that doesn't mean i love yours love yours yeah like that like we're talking about these pos men who are treating all these people like x y and z but they're like but i love my man and i and i love that and i respect that but it's like the you said the duality of like being human but people like to put what's also people in boxes yeah also it happens like it happens on the gay internet all the time it's it'll basically be like let's for example let's say god for a woman a woman is bisexual publicly oh my god if she from from like my side of the internet if she dates a man one it's like kind of funny but like she's a traitor well that's why that's how it's like some parts of like it'll be like oh my god like truly when phoebe bridgers paul mescal got an excuse because he's hot and then to like lesbians when phoebe bridgers started dating bo burnham it truly was like a very dramatic thing happening within like the gay internet and it's because it's like i i think it's less of it's not actually about any of these people it's like it's our obsession with the gay internet and it's because it's like it's not actually about any of these people it's like it's our obsession with the gay internet and it's because it's like i i think it's less of with categories yeah it's like when something's on your page and in your feed it's for you and then you know what category it's in and you kind of develop this ownership in this parasocial relationship with people that part and then they don't give you what you want and you're like what the fuck i went to let's say like phoebe bridgers for my gay yearning and now she's not even though she still is you know it's like it's not for me it's about i'm gonna go ahead and guess never maybe she's hashtag um trad wife i don't know maybe she thought that would help the algorithm i don't know but i'm gonna go ahead and guess she wasn't like this is the only way no you know like you have to do this and if you don't you're bad or you know like i think she just was like doing things she loves yeah and she made it really aesthetically pleasing for some people it's not for everyone you know what they need a not for you page you know if you find anything about this video triggering or upsetting to you it's not i guess it's not for you go back to the safe place the for you page yeah but it's also you should explore you're not for you sometimes yeah you know you should like maybe you should have a not for you page to diversify the things we're watching online you know people get into these pigeonholes but i just find it fascinating these creators have to have to fight so hard to defend things they never actually speak on or or really lean into but they will say one thing and the way people just throw on all these meanings and labels behind them or as if it means something like even if you do lean into it like nara did i'm just like it's a bit yeah and that is what the internet should be used for silly bits and like and especially if you are a creator you realize that when something hits and does well i'm gonna make another one and see how that goes oh and and this does well now it's become a persona let somebody have that i just i don't understand the need to and where i'm like by all means don't like it you don't have to keep scrolling it's it's never been easier to ignore someone also you would think but i think it's i mean like as far as no i mean as far as like like let's say you don't like nara smith blocker but even if you don't like even if you don't like the idea of trad wives like okay block word trad wife on your phone there you go like i'm just like i have a friend who's a creator as well and it's just like she's like anytime if i do a baking video because it's not her consistent um content but she's a pretty girl and she dresses nice no matter what but it's like the second she does like a cooking content or something people like oh you're a trad wife oh you're giving into and it's just like so somebody can't enjoy cooking as well as and all other aspects of i don't know what i like as a woman yeah it's also just like we've we've i think we've gone like completely full circle at times i want to become a try life i'm making bread i made bread for the first time am i now a trad wife oh my gosh you guys i cut up sausages in my trader joe's pasta last night am i a chef am i a trad wife i got into sourdough like several months ago and i was so excited i baked the most beautiful loaf of sourdough bread and i made a video and i like had steam it was so good and literally that day when i was gonna post it like this huge trad wife discussion came up about sourdough baking and you're like oh no i was like i can't post it it's sitting it is literally sitting in my drafts because i was like i don't it's like the worst timing to post my sourdough bread but it was so good it's also like the fact that sourdough has become triggering like forgive me for being in my 20s during the pandemic like sometimes you want to carve without like all that other stuff i wouldn't even know what to do if nanny offered to make me a sandwich first of all i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i'm not going to do that i would probably decline and you know the nicest way possible would you be scared the truth is like i i don't cook and uh because like it's like my like job or or whatever but it's mostly because i'm particular yeah and i like to cook but mostly because i probably wouldn't eat and nally i'm sure is a fine cook we're just never gonna give her the opportunity there's never gonna give me the opportunity and it's not because i want to be this like loving helpful i mean obviously i do want to be a loving helpful partner but i'm not cooking it's the reason i cook it's selfish it's selfish it's 100 selfish you will eat what i eat but i won't eat what you eat yeah so it makes sense well it turns out i'm a really good cook my cooking it just kind of works out in terms of how we came up with our roles and responsibility of our relationship was most a lot of it was like all right so like you're really good at that you like that i fucking hate that all right great we can conquer and divide and then there's a million other things we just do together and that's kind of what i find so fascinating about this conversation because in reality if you're a conservative man if you're a progressive man especially if you guys decide to have a family and have kids you just don't have the luxury of like you know really sticking your heels in the ground and being like no i'm no i mean i guess you can and i'm sure some people do but there also is a reason why the divorce rate is high as it is because a lot of those times those people are like you know what i tried and um this isn't for me and i'm sure yes there are some situations where people feel stuck and they can't get out of relationships obviously there's extreme examples of every situation and that's what i feel like the the internet is always this like referring to the most extreme version of the thing that it's like that might happen but in reality i think most couples are just trying to survive and figure the fuck out and there is a spectrum of the the ways people go about making their relationships work and yes there is a spectrum of of privilege and help that we all have but even if you are lucky enough to have help and natalie and i are very lucky with the resources we have to help us like parent and and work but we are and nevertheless are still like often feel like underwater and and and and and stressed out and it's just more like yeah well let's let's it needs to get done so we do it and like this idea and i also i feel like a lot of the people who are most engaged in this trap in this discourse are are single people am i wrong there i feel like it's a lot of people i don't know projecting what they want for themselves or don't want for themselves i feel like i see that a lot too where it's just like a lot of the time people that are really triggered by certain elements it doesn't actually pertain to them but it's a fear of that could be their future so it's like if i'm more resistant to it now it's like but again no one's forcing you you don't just because you become a wife doesn't mean your job is instantly in the kitchen just because somebody's a husband doesn't mean he goes to nine to five with a briefcase and comes home and dinner's on the table like to your point i think the whole like heteronormative roles of the 60s not really a thing right now it's like hey if the trash needs to go out do you have free hands or do i like i don't think it needs to be like oh my god i'm your wife i will not touch that trash like my parents like and i'm so grateful because i learned like the idea of being a teammate through my parents and they had 10 kids and it was very blue collar so my dad worked and my mom stayed home but it was morally based off of like that was the the hand they were dealt yeah and i if i if i were to like sit there and go okay my mom did that my dad did that i guess in a lot of ways they both kind of leaned into more traditional roles but like my mom mowed the lawn my dad made dinner my dad like yeah again it was mostly based off of like who was available to do what it was who has the bandwidth and it was like it was like and i just it's just hysterical yeah that this trad wife thing has become so big and so divisive and it's so unrealistic when it comes to practical relationships i and in this time and age because i'm with you yesterday i said i was gonna make pasta from scratch went to the farmer's market got like tomatoes and my little things i ordered my bread flour like i'm like i was ready and then the day life happened and come around six o'clock seven o'clock connor was just like hey like are you gonna still be able to do that and i was like honestly it's doing my head in and he was like i got you and then he went and made dinner so i'll make dinner tonight but it's just like again there's no like well you said you were going to so you should get in there because i'm hungry like you know what i mean my same best one of my best friends i could they him and his wife they could not be more progressive and i think everything they believe they also she also literally has like a pie making business they went and bought a farm in canada uh they have a bunch of animals like and so so much of their life uh from a from an outsider point of view if you were just to describe their life you would you would probably call them alt-right you know like literally none of nothing visuals it's all just from a visual standpoint but like when when does when did it become like having kids and making food and living on a farm become a political identity it's fucking crazy people are living on communes in the 60s whether you're talking about modern dating or you're talking about trad wives like if you have a trad wife or you're stuck in a situationship like it doesn't matter just it's just like you or or just like try to like lead with love and be a kind person and treat your neighbors right zeus's law if you will I just saw the Odyssey no, but it's true. It's like I just think a lot of people are so focused on whatever everyone else is doing and i'm just like if it bothers you so much look away and it's that easily gone but it's like if you like to stay in a constant state of frustration and just being pissed that other people are living their lives in a way you don't agree with i'm just like that so seems like a miserable existence you know i was getting kind of frustrated because um i bleached my hair we can tell looks good thank you very much i'm feeling good feeling hot um and that's exactly like people were comparing me a lot of the times would be like you look like my friend and they would show me a picture of a brunette lesbian and i was like i'm sick of this shit and then i was like mad at people and i was like this is my own thing of my own identity i want to be blonde again and so i did it and i didn't make it other people's pot like i think sometimes we like on the internet kind of just like we want something and we don't just do it for ourselves you gotta post that you gotta post that video should i post the bread tonight guy or when this comes out anyway you should hashtag you the lesson from this episode bleach your hair if you want to be a trad wife if you want to bake the bread i'm gonna mock the whole trad wife you should you should bake some bread and post about it too you should do a little yeah just get cooking wear an apron yeah yeah like a frilly one but you just have to make a voice version of a trad wife outfit is my question you should do a three-piece suit yeah put your tom ford suit on yeah three-piece suit you gotta dress up for it and then you have to like go on and be like top hat so my wife while catering to our two twins asked me she was craving a sourdough sandwich so i said i've got you babe i've started with my flour and sifter like you have to literally go through like every step in a like yeah phone operator voice you should do a nara smith nod and i but i do imagine there are self-identified trad wives who are very earnest about this lifestyle and that's why some people find it like triggering i'm just curious because i'm just like you know how i mean i don't know i just like i wonder if like somebody who actually identifies as a trad wife if they if if they personally identify as a trad wife does that make sense like where i'm like if i like just would be a perfect example she was like she like she was like yo i just didn't think it was that serious and i but like i feel like she's like i work i provide for my family i'm doing these things they're not online honestly like a real trad wife is subservient to her husband i mean that's what like that's what it is that's what like the one like real sure like the real sort of like traditional family values is you're respecting your version of traditional family values i can't say that i've watched a shit ton of trad wife videos but is that the theme that they're leaning into i am not on the subservient aspect or is it more about sourdough that's what i don't that's what i don't think the real ones are probably the subservient aspect the the ones that just like sourdough are baking sourdough i feel like a truly but it does seem like people are throwing a lot of these labels on people who are making sour sourdough and they're like wait i never said i was that's what i'm saying i don't think an actual traditional wife is going around calling herself a trad wife i just think that that's like a part of like hey i wake up in the morning i go collect eggs from the thing i i make my kids breakfast i said i pack my husband lunch like if if that's what you do on a day-to-day basis you just call that a day a daily routine it's not like i'm like oh my god today as a trad wife day one like so that's what i'm saying as uh nara being um satire it's like again it's a bit it's a persona that she's playing into i know most women that are cooking and making videos on the internet about cleaning and all that stuff it's whether it's relatable or whether it's just like okay this is what i did a day in my life no one's like day in the life of a trad wife 243 like it's just no we are obsessed with labeling people i think it's more to make ourselves i don't know feel better about our choices i don't know it's it's wild but um stop it her happy existence just keeps sweeping well before we get to our first guest don't forget the vile files plus is available and ad free for all of you sickos i'm just kidding uh okay west wilson for all you awesome all of you dedicated vile files listeners if you need more we got more for you in addition to getting ad free episodes we have your reality recap deep dives will we dive even deeper and sometimes we try out topics like justin mary and i talked about trad wives uh last week and we get really into the weeds get a little messy sometimes we get really into the weeds and we just say fuck it and i'm gonna say this shit you know you guys think we're messy on here you'd be surprised how safe we are on uh on vile files well we also have our pop extra episodes where we dive deep into uh topics we can't even possibly think about like we didn't even have time to talk about jax taylor and his new girlfriend maybe we'll uh get into it on wednesday but we'll certainly get into it on plus we will get into jax taylor on plus uh we have your update specials where you get your favorite updates on your favorite ethnic so if you need more we got more for you just go to vile files.com to sign up you'll be glad you did up next up dr pamela baker joins us to uh help us continue the conversation about kyle and amanda and their marriage we had some thoughts like we mentioned uh talking about uh in the in the city reunion and uh had some opinions about what it meant about kyle and amanda not engaging in kind of sex in their marriage and why that might have happened and what it means dr baker uh chimed in like hey i got some thoughts and we were like well why don't you uh come on the show and share it so she's up next most dog food brands don't really want you seeing how their food is made just food for dogs is the opposite they actually invite you in you can walk into any of their kitchens and see real human grade ingredients like chicken beef carrots and peas being prepared right in front of you it's real food made in real kitchens nothing is hidden behind labels and that kind of transparency says a lot nothing to hide everything to love go to justfoodfordogs.com and get 50 off your first order your morning rituals can set the trajectory for your day optimize your morning routine and fuel your mindset with the g2 boost collection from pilot powered by the science of color these premium gel pens feature curated colors designed to power your day blue for productivity purple for creativity and pink for optimism go grab your pack of g2 boost today walmart g2 boost hues to power you dr baker welcome to the show thank you so much i'm happy to be here we're very excited to have you we were talking about in the city last week and and we were like if anyone's listening who's an expert who actually has an expert opinion on some of the things we're talking about chime in and you so graciously raised your hand and uh engaged in the comments so we were like come on the show to get started guys we're going to be talking about some of the things we're going to be talking about today so can you just tell our audience a little bit about yourself kind of your you know your expertise your background and the qualifications you bring to this interview sure i'm happy to do that my name is dr pamela baker and i'm a licensed psychologist in the state of florida so i received my undergraduate degree from the university of miami go canes and and then i went on to receive my master's and doctoral degree from nova southeastern university which is in davie florida and now i'm working in private practice i'm an expert in the field of anxiety disorders depression trauma related issues couples therapy family counseling things related to the lgbtqia community the like i'm a generalist i do work with children adolescents and adults so that's a little glimpse awesome you seem perfectly qualified to have this and we we're not qualified we have it all the time um so anyways we were talking about kyle and amanda and uh they you know i thought that was a really interesting conversation where they were you know they kind of admitted that very early in their marriage that physical intimacy played almost no part um of that relationship and we were kind of discussing and trying debating what does that mean what does that look like how does a couple end up in that situation and we had some like you know theories about like is this like a love language thing is this a compatibility thing i'm just curious when you listened to that conversation between kyle and amanda from an expert's point of view what was your takeaway and i guess what was your analysis of what they were bringing to that conversation okay so if we're referring specifically to the second part of the reunion in the city what i saw immediately was the lack of communication the lack of connection so what does intimacy mean to you might be different than what it means to me different for kyle different from amanda if you watch that clip again you can see very clearly she starts to explain the why right and what happens is immediately kyle jumps in and instead of listening or reflecting what he heard her say or validating her opinion her thoughts her feelings he immediately goes into a totally different subject of explaining you know going into his thoughts his feeling so immediately there's a disconnect there's a lot going on there where she gets interrupted not only by him but then andy and i listen i love andy cohen so don't get it twisted the man can do no wrong in my opinion however then she gets bulldozed and there's a problem there because she's not able to sort of advocate for herself in a really healthy, confident, self-aware manner. She lets it happen. And then people are laughing and the message gets lost, you know, and then we hear Kyle's side of things, which had nothing to do with her explanation, which is okay. His opinion is important too. But the lack of connection and communication is the root of this really, truly. What was her explanation? It's been a few weeks now since I've seen it. Was it the cheating or what? I forget what it was that she started to explain when she got caught off. Well, I mean, I'm sure you remember Dr. Baker. I just remember it as like, it was like a lack of, not that foreplay, but there was like no romance. He wanted to be courted. It was just like a lot of, you know, he would come home late and just want to hook up kind of a thing. Yeah. I would just, uh, it's like, right. She kind of felt like there was more like this kind of expectation of sex as if it was like a responsibility she had in the marriage rather than something. They, as a couple enjoyed together. Yeah. She starts to say, you know, I want to be courted. I asked for dates. I asked for time and speaking during the day. And instead of listening to any of that, uh, then she, he interrupts her. And then she comments about, she was unhappy about his, his drinking, his partying, but that, that wasn't even the point. But then he latched onto it. And then he says immediately, well, of course, so, uh, now I'm an alcoholic and I'm a workaholic. So again, he misses his opportunity to connect and to hear her. And he goes into, you know, his kind of defense mode, which, you know, it's a human inner, like a human impulse to do that, of course, is very understandable. We all do that. But I can see in that one moment that that's the pattern of interaction and engagement, the dynamic that they've established together. I know we're seeing it at the end of the relationship, obviously, but that's problematic. Another thing that we kind of talked about was just like, we almost tried to, I guess, I suppose, label their marriage after we learned that there seemingly was zero intimacy for all this, all these years. And we, I guess, tried to talk about what, like the authenticity of their relationship. We even suggested that maybe like, oh, well, man, they're not intimate at all. Maybe, is this more like a showmance? Like, are they, you know, they talk so much about, oh, saving their fights for the show. And clearly so much of the relationship is centered around this show. I'm curious from your point of view, when you heard about just the lack of any intimacy, how did you see that relationship? Like, is this something that's fairly common or not common? And how can I, can you have a successful relationship without any intimacy whatsoever? And for people who, I guess, are still staying together, but not trying to close that gap or close that disconnection, how do you see that relationship? It really depends on the person. Again, we, we have to get into labeling and understanding what does intimacy mean to you? So if you really listen, it sounds like intimacy, potentially, it starts emotion-wise, even for men, even if they don't realize it, you actually said something smart. When you were speaking about it, that men want to be respected. And Kyle does. And that's totally fair. He keeps saying, he keeps sending the message that I'm the man, I'm the breadwinner, I'm going out and really working hard and doing my best. And you're not understanding that. So that to him seemed really important. And to her, him being out and working all day and not communicating is him not connecting to her. And it's like a missed opportunity. Intimacy starts there. It's a seed, right? He needs to feel like you understand I'm doing this for our family. I'm doing this for our future. And she wasn't seeing that. She was kind of defining that as you're absent from our connection and our marriage. So that's a problem. And then same thing for her. You know, she doesn't feel that she's connecting to him, that he's courting her, he's dating, he did it. So can you have a successful relationship? And I think that's a successful marriage without intimacy. No, no, because the physical part, especially for women, is not going to happen oftentimes without that emotional connection first. Yeah. What do you make of the fact that they stuck in this relationship for so long without having any of this intimacy? And it kind of, it kind of gave that they both kind of gave up on even trying to have the intimacy they both required. Like to your point, they, intimacy clearly meant two different things to each other. And they kind of seemingly always bulldozed over each other's, you know, explanation of what it meant to them. But yet they decided to maintain this relationship. There clearly is like, despite this, all the things that they don't have in this relationship, but they always used to, they always, and even now post relationship have the, have a respect. There's a, there's clearly, they care about each other. They, they do respect each other. They, they, they weirdly want what's best for each other. despite having all these disconnects in a relationship, which is just kind of fascinating. What do you make of that? Well, I think you nailed it in terms of the showmance. They admitted it, even in that reunion. They said that we're used to sort of going in to this season and putting things on the back burner and masking the presentation of like on her, what was it, his birthday or her birthday? I think it was his birthday, where you remember that he was terrible to her the night before, said very abusive things in the bathroom and all of that, like called her names and she was able to flip the switch the next day. That was a perfect glimpse about what they do on a regular. Is it for the show? Yeah, maybe. But I also think it's a part of their personality. They like to present a certain way, but then they don't really get to the root of their issues. They don't talk about what, you know, what their boundaries are. You know, again, how to connect and what's not acceptable. So having watched the show from it's from the beginning, obviously there's clearly a disconnect that happens, whether it was the cheating and Amanda accepting him back into life and accepting the proposal and, you know, not breaking up after that. We're kind of talking about how it's really hard, obviously, to forgive somebody from for some sort of indiscretion in, in such a way, let alone to completely forget about it. But at the same time, if you're going to choose to marry somebody and spend the rest of your life with them, we're seeing a constant where from in the city to the reunion that Amanda constantly is talking about a disconnect from when before they got married and that Kyle's talking about the disconnect post marriage with seeing those two things. I guess my question more so is that not that there's a fault to be had, but like, is it possible that these two, two people right have both experienced the downfall of their relationship at different stages and maybe the therapy at the end of their marriage is like what maybe we're starting to see the full picture. But I'm like, there's clearly been a disconnect throughout their relationship. There's clearly no communication. So was there ever a way for them to come back from where they're at or like from what they were experiencing or to get on the same page? Because I feel like even at the end of their marriage, that's kind of the main point is that they were never capable of getting on the same page. But if two people, or hurt by different things throughout their relationship, was it inevitable that they would end up being divorced? It's never inevitable. Of course, we never know, but it's kind of like when you enter into a relationship, you should already work on building the skills. So establishing what's acceptable in your relationship, what the boundaries are and what are the expectations because going into their marriage, she likely thought, that things would change when they got married. That's tricky. You have to really be communicating about that. Like, and if you're not able to express that effectively, and I'm not blaming her, this is anybody hypothetically speaking, you have to be comfortable, confident, strong to be able to advocate and say, you know what? If I'm entering into this marriage, I'm having the expectation that in a couple of years or not really going to be drinking or not going to really be partying or not going to be doing XYZ. And if you're not clear about that, it's really not fair. They're seeing things totally different. Right. Kind of piggybacking on what Sierra was asking. I imagine because it seems like Kyle and Amanda are whenever like they got into couples therapy, it seems like very late in the relationship, probably too late. I imagine you experience this a lot as a couples therapist, but it seems like a lot of people when they enter in couples therapy, their goal isn't closing the gap. Or being more connected. Their goal is to find a referee to agree with them and then tell their partner that see, I was right. And it feels like that's very much Kyle and Amanda. I imagine you deal with that a lot in couples therapy when you do when like say, say a couple walks in and you get a sense that they were both looking for the referee and they're hoping that you will be team them. How do you address that head on and have you ever been, or is it pretty impossible to try to change that? Mindset to realize I don't agree with either of you. And if you don't change, your expectations or what you want out of this, I'm not going to be able to help you. How do you have that conversation with a couple that clearly comes in wanting to be right and looking for an advocate rather than looking for a therapist? It's a very good question because that absolutely happens most of the time. So I appeal to that and I say, listen, you can't go in expecting the other person to change. It's not going to happen. You have to go in owning your part and really taking pride in that. It's not even altruistic because I try to build the person up individually by, you want to feel like your best self. You want to progress. You want to develop. You want to be emotionally mature and intelligent. So I make it a positive thing that they, what does that mean? Take advantage of it. Take accountability and responsibility for what they're bringing to the table, them not pointing the finger. So I make that a positive thing rather than I'm going to go in and be on the defense mode and this makes me a bad person and my ego can't handle that. And then I reinforce when they're able to do that. And then I use an analogy of look for the key, what the person provides you when they say something that upset them that you did. Oh, instead of saying, oh, I'm not going to Oh my God, I didn't do that. Which is, you know, the normal reaction, right? Instead say, wow, that's a key. They're literally offering me in my hand. What can I do about that? Do I feel comfortable doing that? Am I okay with what they're asking? Is the behavior, the action that they're wanting me to do? Like one thing Kyle said that stuck out to me is, well, this is just me. Anybody can say that, but do you go to the gym and work out and be your best self? Lift some weights? Yeah. Same thing emotionally. It's not just you. If you want to grow as a person and then grow as a couple, you have to have that. Yeah. I always think that the kiss of death in a relationship is talking poorly about your partner, especially when they're not present. And I feel like that was a constant theme we've seen, especially in the last four seasons, once things kind of started to get bad between the two of them. And like, what would advice that you would give to a couple that's how they behave about each other in public? Respect. So again, that's something that could be communicated in therapy. Like how can we respect each other? If that means when we're out in a public situation, especially if you're on a reality show, God help us. I know. We're just not, we're just not going to do that. You know, we're going to speak to each other, you know, that even if you table it and if you say, okay, that really upset me, but honey, let's, you know, I even say like a code word so that, you know, you say you're saying to your partner, this isn't okay, but we'll talk about it behind closed doors because we just don't throw each other under the bus. Right. And we don't take pleasure in that, like gathering people to be on our side. We're supposed to be on each other's side. Right. Yeah. And that's why I find it to be so like shocking because to your point, I just don't know how, especially in the Bravo world, how couples are able to survive. Because like, how do you agree to go on as a couple, agree to be interesting, maintain that level of respect that you hope you have coming in to a merit and to this like show, and then know that you will be, you know, specifically asked to talk about your partner. Like the whole, like every professional is basically, so who are you willing to talk shit about? You know? And if you're made, and if, and if your major storyline is your relationship, then you're going to be asked to do that. And I can't, it's whatever, whoever couples, I don't know if you watch obviously a lot of reality TV, are there couples in reality TV that, that stand out to you as, I don't know how they do it, but they seem to do it right. Knowing that they have so much pressure to talk shit and to complain and to nitpick and just kind of be vulnerable, uh, at the risk of throwing their partners under the bus. That's, that's really sad that I can't think of. I have one. I have one. Oh, wait, I'm ready. I want to hear, um, Heather and Terry Dubrow, right? Meredith and Seth Marks. Yeah. That's what it's like. Because, um, there was that scene, I think it was last season where they were at a doctor's office or whatever, and Terry got snippy and Heather was like, we don't do this. Like, you know, and, and people wanted to come for them being like, you're fake, you're hiding aspects of your life. Your marriage isn't perfect. But I do think that you do have a responsibility to your relationship when you are showcasing something on reality and you have a responsibility to your relationship when you're showcasing something on reality. You have the audience, the satisfaction to throw each other under the bus. So you feel that I'm authentic as an individual. Right. But I think that brings so much scrutiny from the audience. Like people hate it. People are like truly calling people fake, even like Nia and Danny. Like, obviously there's a lot of things that they need to work on in their relationship, but like, she really doesn't air her stuff out with him. And she, she stands up for him like time and time again, whether you agree with their relationship or not, like she, she's not going to bring their drama to the show. And they're even stepping away because they're like, this is actually not good for our family dynamic. Yeah. Have you been watching the Valley at all? Of course I have. I know exactly what you're talking about. First of all, the Heather and Terry thing, I totally agree. You know, Heather obviously is, you know, she's an actress and they're both very poised, very professional and very smart. And I actually respect them too for doing that. I really do. And I do believe that it is not let go behind closed doors because she's a strong woman. She's going to bring it up. It's not going to be let go. Love that. And with the Nia situation also, she's a pageant, you know, she's in the pageant world. She also knows how to present herself very well. And that's important to her. And that's okay. It's beautiful. Not everybody likes that, but I don't really care as long as it works for the couple. You know, is it more exciting when it's dramatic for the audience? Yeah, of course. Right. But it's not healthy. I was going to say, as a couples therapist watching the Valley, is that one of the harder ones for you to watch? Because you're like, I wish we could sit down and talk about this. Or is it like, there's just so many different examples of relationship dynamics, maybe not on the more positive side? Interesting loaded question. I don't know. Are you asking about like, in general, all of them? Or would I want to specifically sit down with one of them? Because I think it could be helpful or interesting. Like, it's somebody that's like watching because like, I obviously am not a couples therapist. And I have a lot of opinions on what I'm seeing, because it's just, it's almost a different level of, I don't want to just say fully toxicity, but it is. It's almost like I just see so many different degrees of things where I'm like, oh, this could probably be dealt with if they would just sit down and talk about this instead of talking about it with them, or whatever. But I'm just like, I don't think I've seen so many couples dynamics that I'm just kind of like, what's the word I'm looking for? Like, where it's like, it's almost like they're all just like passing around a hot potato. But like, no one's actually dealing with their stuff. So I couldn't imagine being a couples therapist wanting to weigh in on that. Like, is it a hard watch? Yeah. Well, yeah, of course, I want to sit all of them down. But do they ever do that? I'm not sure. Obviously, we just get a slice of their life, which is exciting. And potentially, they do have some of those skills. I don't want to, you know, assume that they don't. But when watching The Valley, which couple do you think has the healthiest dynamic? Hmm. Good question. Lala. With her babies. Yeah. I was gonna say, there's not really a lot. Well, I guess there are a lot of couples, but there's not a lot. Which couple do you think has the worst dynamic? Oh, I would never say that. First of all, I would label it as which couple has the most room for broke. Yes. There we go. That's what we wanted to ask. Yes. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Actually, I lied. I lied, though. I thought about it for a second. There we go. I think that they have just so much to handle in terms of so many children and the recent move. That's a lot. Then I was thinking the Kristen situation is really difficult, that relationship. What part? Well, obviously, it sounds like she's experiencing potentially some postpartum stuff, which is very normal, common, of course, reasonable. But it sounds like there's obviously a disconnect there in terms of his, again, expectations. He could never know what it's going to be like when you have children and how those, you know, everyday things are going to change. Their connection is going to change. But they are definitely not on the same page. And I hope the therapy helps. I'm proud of them for pursuing it and trying to work on it. But it's hard. Well, I mean, I'm curious if a Kristen, and Luke type of couple came into your office. So what do you say to the, to the Luke's? Uh, and I only say this because maybe it's a product of me growing up a lot of sisters. I don't fucking know, or having a lot of women friends, but Natalie just gave birth to twins. We have a daughter. There's a lot going on right now. I, it just like, didn't need to be, I just feel like the explanation is like, yo dude, chill out. You know, I don't like what, what do you, I just feel like, how do you get a guy who maybe has what feels like these unreasonable expectations of how their woman partner is supposed to show up postpartum in the bedroom. And I, I, I feel like the, the explanation is, Hey, you just need to understand better. There's not a lot of nuance to like telling the guy that like right now, now's not the time to prioritize your physical intimacy, your physical intimacy. Like, but how, as a therapist, I'm sure you're more nuanced than, than a friend would be. How do you have that conversation knowing that you're trying to have him hear you, but at, do you also feel ever compelled to just be like, chill the fuck out, dude? Like, just like telling him, you know, you know what I'm saying? Cause like, I just, why do we need to walk? I just feel like this is, this is common knowledge, you know? Like, but yeah, I love this though. I love this. I had a patient years ago that used to say to me, he was talking to me about his wife situation. He would say to me, Dr. Beger, it's common sense. And I would say to him, I hear you, but common sense is even a term that's subjective. What your common sense is, is different than that. And he's like, no, it does not make sense. Absolutely not. And I want to tell you, first of all, congratulations. I did see that. And I love something you said the other day. I do listen to your podcast. You're like, see you in six months. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's like, and it's cool. It's fine. And again, to your point, there's also a, it's just a zillion other ways to demonstrate intimacy. And if nothing else, like what Natalie and I tried to do is contain to let the other person know that we look forward to that day is that allows us to get back to like, what feels maybe more normal when it comes to the physical intimacy. What normal is for us at least. And, and, and there are times where we are good at that. And there are times where we're not, you know, and when we're not, we, we check in, you know, it's like, are we still, you know, we're, you know, you're still hot for me type of thing, but like you, you know, it's just, I'm, I am blown away that it, it, it seems to not land with so many men out there. And I am just curious, a professional like you, how do you get through to men who are more traditional? I suppose, or just a little bit more dense when it comes to, or maybe they just didn't have a mom or a girlfriend to let them know, like, yo, um, you might have to, you might have to chill out a little bit. Um, yeah. How do you have that conversation? Great question. I would go back to what I said earlier. It sounds so simple, but when I say find the key, if you go into the conversation, like, listen, I need to have sex. This has been too long. I'm dying. You suck. I cannot handle this. If she's going in, I cannot have sex. You're not understanding me. I'm going through so much stuff everywhere. No. If you go in with that, okay, nothing is going to be solved. If you go in saying, how can I find the key to connect? So what does that mean? It's compromised potentially, but it's like, listen, if he goes in saying, I really need some kind of physical connection, it's really hard. I feel outside of things. And honestly, that happens a lot with, men. When the woman has a baby, the attention and focus changes. It does the dynamic, the energy changes. And that's hard for some men. It really is. But then he needs to be honest and talk. It's okay for him to feel that it's always okay for you to think and feel anything, but then you can't push it. How can we, you know, meet in the middle somehow? Is there something that he can ask for that she is comfortable? Okay, honey. So I know you can't have sex, like vaginal sex, maybe. Is there other like connections that we can do that you are, are okay? That's the key thing. If you focus on just what you want, you're going to, it's, you're done. Question. And I just thought of this when you mentioned this, um, that some men feel like, you know, the, the attention, it drifts a little bit from them. Mm-hmm. Do you find that the men who feel that way, um, more often than, than not are not are maybe leaning into traditional roles and are not as maybe as hands-on in terms of helping around the house? I only ask that because like, I'm a really like now and I, as much as we can share the responsibilities of everything that happens in our household. And I, and again, I'm only speaking to my personal experience, but like, I have not felt that, um, lack of attention or lack of prioritization in my direction, but I think it's because I'm not, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not I think it's because we're just, we're doing everything together. So I, I just don't, you know, like it, I, that connection comes from us doing things together. And I feel like that way I've never, I just have never felt like the kids are getting more attention than me. And I fee, I think it's just because we're just sharing so much of the responsibilities where I, I wonder if a guy who's just like, well, I guess, you know, I don't know, I don't do diapers and I don't do this or yada, yada, yada. Do you, do you, does that make sense? Am I making sense? Is that, or is that not, is that not the case? No, I would say a couple of variables come into play though. So some things I know about you specifically, I think that you grew up in a very big family. Is that accurate? Correct. Yeah. Okay. Had a lot of siblings. So those things play a huge role. Also, you mentioned that you had sisters. Uh, my brother is the most amazing man ever. And he's wonderful with women, like very kind, very thoughtful, very sensitive, but also like a master. He has three sisters and he was very close to his mom. Those variables are really important in terms of those dynamics. You had to share, you had to understand that your opinion, your, um, what you were interested, what you wanted was not always the priority. It had to be divided with siblings. It had to be understood in a bigger context. So it's just, there are so many variables that come into, but it's the nature of a woman. Nature versus nurture kind of idea. But somebody maybe that grew up with like one brother and they're like, I mean, I'm, you know, being stereotyped. Sure. Oversimplifying. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But I imagine that, uh, of having a sister or women friends is a, is a green flag for a lot of you. Whenever a guy has had, has multiple sisters, I've always said they show up different in relationships. There's so much sweeter and like more empathetic. To my experience as a woman. That's how I felt. You know, it's fun. I mean, I have two brothers, right. And when they've, one of my brother, like my oldest brother is 13 years older than me. So like it was less with that. But when my closest brother in age to me, who's eight years older than me started dating his like now wife, it was just so funny to see him be like that guy kind of that, like me, my mom and my sisters had been like kind of forcing him to be. And just watching him react completely different to her than to us is like the sweetest thing. Like to watch like the guy, like I will be, he is the person I may be meanest to in the entire world, but no one else could be. And like, I love that. Like I have, I can do that. And then like to, and then he'll be awful back to me, but it's like, fine. And then to watch him, like to know that it actually works, you know what I mean? It's like a really, yeah. To know that, you know, I suppose some guys who don't have sisters or grew up with women friends when they get into a relationship and yeah, they just have a complete lack of everything seems stupid to them or I don't know what it is. Like it's fascinating. Or you see them in the real, like there'll be other times where you'll see like someone who grew up with sisters, like do that thing that pisses you off. And it's been really also awesome to get to be the sister, to be like, Hey, don't let him talk to you like that. And she's like, I know. Yeah. Well, Dr. Baker, this has been really interesting. I appreciate you taking the time. Always, always great to have someone with your expertise, giving us some takes on all the shows that we love to watch. Absolutely. It was such a pleasure again. Congratulations. And I hope that you and your wife and the kiddos are doing well. And I'm happy to contribute anytime I'm here. Keep popping off in the comments. We appreciate your takes and always love the discourse. Uh, Dr. Baker, where can people find you, follow you if that's something you're interested in? Yeah, you can follow me. I'm Pammy Lee, P-A-M-M-Y-L-E-I-G-H on Instagram. I don't really do TikTok, although I do watch them all. And yeah, my, uh, email is drpamilybaker at gmail.com and you can catch me there. All right. All right. Well, thanks for taking the time, Dr. Baker. We appreciate you. Enjoyed it. I had so much fun. Have a wonderful rest of your day. Take care. Love getting professional. Love that. I feel like I just had a session. Yeah. Right. Professional. perspectives on the shows that I watch thinking I am a psychologist analyzing yeah because I also have theory I like to share um I'm just watching the valley and like why I don't think it's doing very well or why I think it's a hard watch for a lot of people I kind of feel like and maybe tell me if you agree disagree but I was like I think it's just I'm watching a group of people right in their late 30s early 40s that don't really seem like they have a lot going on outside of being involved in each other's relationships which really presents this toxic constant need to be talking about each other but like we have nothing really to root for with these couples they're too their job is being on tv yeah and they're like too invested in each other's stories but it doesn't feel like these people like hang out in a way that it comes from a place of concern it feels like everything is a pitch for a storyline and if we click if we grab onto this then this is what we're going to be following but I'm just like I'm like Brittany has a podcast uh law who does it on that cast um it's like you know Nia's going off to the beauty pageant things I'm like why are we not following these people while they're doing other things outside of just fighting with each other because then maybe it would make them be a little bit more aspirational maybe a little something that like well-rounded yeah like makes you want to root for these people well Michelle and Jesse you know they they are in real estate but like I think and I well I know that I know that they would they're going to be they talked about real estate more than it was shown yeah so maybe that's a producer choice I do think like but isn't the valley by default kind of about these relationships though so that would make sense if that's what they're framing it for I guess with their intention regardless of it but it's too much I agree with Sierra it's almost like well one it's a cast that predominantly has been on tv for a very long time yeah and and that is primarily their like their their job is being on tv also since they were like dating and younger too it's like kind of all they know right and then like yeah a lot of them have podcasts but that's a kind of an extension of their influencing type of life but I yeah I think what's made like say housewives so fascinating is that many of them like we we are interested in their lives and they do seem to be willing to talk about their life outside of these relationships yes the relationships are things that we care most about and the friendship dynamics but to your point yeah it just it feels very forced and almost too toxic and there's there's just no there's no like positive there's nothing that you're like rooting for these uh not even just as couples but as individuals you know what I mean like where it's like I want to see you thrive I want to see you doing well and then it's like oh I like that I have to bring myself down to this level to have this fight at someone's birthday party or whatever and a great example of that in comparison would be summer house you watched Paige start off as an influencer to where she's ended up now you've watched Carl go from a complete fuck boy to you know a business owner an entrepreneur and it's just like it's like it's like it's like it's like it's just like so even if we're seeing bad or toxic traits or whatever and seeing people work through them to get on the other side I think is also a part of the thing that makes you fall in love with a cast of reality television and to grow with them yeah but like we're three seasons in and I'm like like Kristen has a full-on uh clothing company I'm like if Luke and farming and whatever he does with his family like I'm just like I just feel like there's so many other elements that could make these people and their couples uh couple dynamics so much more interesting and instead we're so focused on them hating each other and I'm like I don't know I don't know I don't know and like destroying each other's relationships that it's demonizing it like me and Danny is a perfect example it's just like clearly like most relationships that they have some flaws as relationship they have some flaws as individuals but the way they are just demonized and again labeled and like they're they're they don't even talk about other aspects of the relationship how did these two people love each other enough to start a family have four kids under four and up until recently seem to be like it's just like it's just like it's just like it's just like make it work yeah you know like and that requires so many healthy decisions and like so much like but the way they are highlighted is so every couple it's like pigeonholed into their darkest moment yeah and it's just like it's just not enjoyable to watch without you need the duality you need the light to counteract the darkness and that show has just become so dark that it's like and and i mean this like in the nicest way but it's like the fact that like jesse and michelle seem like the healthiest relationship dynamics on that show after we watched inauthentic you know what i mean after we watched the worst season they could possibly have had and the worst divorce and all of that to like where we're at now and it's just like i i again i just i feel like you need something to root for if we're going to talk about the breakdowns of relationships or friendships and i talk about this a lot on on on just bravo in general it's just like i i don't know i mean like chris and luke are friends very i mean i don't know them that well so i haven't talked to him about this but for all i know and it wouldn't shock me is if like for storyline luke has had to lean in to this postpartum issue that they've had and he's not as dense uh as he's coming across about you know or he's not as unempathetic to kristin's needs as he's coming across because like that's the storyline because we need something and to another comparison is what from what you were saying earlier was like think of vanderpump rules for example right the restaurant is the location it's the place that brings all these people together it's the explanation as to how these people are in each other's lives but then it's like oh we followed jackson stassi we follow kristin and tom tom and katie and then you have the girls friendships in between that and then it's like the drama that comes in with the sheenas or what you know what i mean where it's like the way that you introduce more characters and it's it you kind of want to see but then you've got sheena wanting to be a pop star it's just like a multi-level multi-level like nuanced layered show that you want to watch and i wonder like but like no no no well vanderpump was in the valley obviously as an extension of vanderpump kind of lost that main sort they lost sir like what are you doing like they don't work at the restaurant anymore what are they doing and they got famous from working at a restaurant and now they are too famous to work at a restaurant but that was the thing is think about season one is that it wasn't about them working at a restaurant or trying to be famous it was the fact that they were all aspiring actors models musicians so it's like in between that and the fact that they were all aspiring actors so it's like in between that and the fact that they were all aspiring you got sandoval doing the worst short film you've ever seen you know like your friends recording sessions you've got aspiring djs you've got club nights for things for drama to come down like you know what i mean where i'm like there's in the valley they're not doing anything anymore it just feels like you guys are just sitting on your couches talking to your significant other about how much worse another couple is than you being 30 and and having a family was just about talking shit about your friends and that's just not and it's not aspirational that i could understand how anybody in their 20s watching the valley is like it makes me tear it's what is this what i have to look forward to can i be really honest with you guys the reason i have a hard time watching the valley is because like i am so terrified that's what my life would turn into one day like i can't watch it like it literally like makes me want to bomb.com it's not an accurate depiction i think of like friend groups of friend groups of what you would just stop hanging out with those people literally i wouldn't be around them yeah i mean most of the time in adult life your your friend group does get smaller and as your life gets busier and busier you're like oh my god i'm so tired of this busier it's just sometimes you want to hang out with friends but you know if if if you and your friends decided to have kids or whatever that sometimes just makes it difficult to like all get together on a thursday night like you used to but like for the ones who are lucky enough to still be able to do that you only do that because it's fun and enjoyable and it's just like you get to mix things up yeah and as if like yeah these people like only get together to just ruin each other's lives there's days because it's like even the scene with nia coming over to talk to kristin and whatnot like they both just had babies like you would think that you would pose this under like um a baby play date or something like cutesy and fun it just felt like nia walked in with her baby on for them to be like hey this is what people are saying about your husband and she's like well this is too much for me i'm gonna go yeah and it's just like you know what i mean there's no intention there there's no like when i have my friends over i don't have my friends over to sit them down and be like hey this is what everyone's saying about you it's like you come over i probably have food set out for you we're gonna have drinks we're gonna go sit on the balcony we're gonna go walk to a restaurant whatever we're gonna go do it's like there's there's a plan not just like hey now that you're here how do you feel about michelle like you know i'm just no it's like you're getting a margarita and then 45 minutes of that conversation you're gonna be talking about nothing and then you're like oh by the way can we just like quick thing on michelle thank you like that's that and then you move on exactly like i wonder sometimes about the valley if it's you know kind of when you tell your friends about your relationship you'll tell them about the stuff that's stressing you out because you want to talk to people about it and you maybe kind of tell them too much about that and not enough about the right stuff and then they'll be like well that sounds really bad you're like no no no no no no like i just told you the shitty parts is that just the valley in a show it's just like it's just showing the bad parts of these relationships and we don't get to see any of the normal good stuff or like any gross like that or the friendships that's what i feel like too again to to give credit to michelle and jesse where i'm like even then still rocky still messy i'm just like you you just really don't have an obviously i love kristin so i'm not including her in this but i'm just like it is where i'm like you're not including her in this but i'm just like you're not including her in this not really watching a range of any growth whatsoever it's just another year and another of the same oh you don't like janet again okay so here we go like janet yes she she may not be palatable for most people she's giving you something to talk about on this show so i'm just you know what i mean like at least she's showing up for work so i'm just kind of like i don't know i'm just kind of over it and then i'm sorry if i'm just going to bring up the one thing on the finale with uh danny where i'm just like i'm sorry these people aren't your friends right if they talk to you this way they make you feel this way they make you feel like you have to if i have to film one last hurrah with these people at a halloween party you know what i'm probably not gonna do get blackout wasted to the point where I can't put together a sentence and then be surprised that somebody threw a drink at me or that something escalated. And then to make your statement weeks before that you're not coming back to the show because the show's the problem with your relationship. And then it's like to see that, hey, you have an entire group of people that cannot wait for a camera to turn on to talk about what a mess you are drinking. And then you give them exactly that for the finale. Like I, too, would walk away. Huh? That's crazy. He did that. Yeah. He literally is like blackout drunk, can't put together a sentence. You know that they filmed that post payment. No, they put they they've released a statement saying that they weren't coming back to the show a few weeks ago. But I think that they said that because they like obviously seeing the trajectory of where the show is going with their dynamic. They were like, no, like we're putting a stop to it where I was like, you may be your decision to walk away. But I'm like, I would have walked away regardless, knowing that this was the finale. Well, it does seem like to your point, maybe he does, in fact, have some kind of problem. That's what I'm saying. If I knew that I would be under ridicule based off of my drinking, I definitely would not the last time that I'm filming with this group of people can blackout wasted to prove their point. Yeah, that's what I mean. He probably does, in fact, have a problem. But to the other point, there are more than just this problem. Exactly. And it only gets taught. I mean, it's just but the bigger point is like, yeah, it's unbelievable. It's not believable that these people are actually friends. Exactly. It just looks like they all got casted to be on a show. Yeah. To cause drama. And that's just not it doesn't work if that's that's the no friend group would exist in such a manner, let alone that I'm like, I just I know the paycheck is worth it, but I'm just like at this point, it's just it's not believable. Yeah, they need to be more well-rounded. Well, a show we are watching and enjoying is Married at First Sight. And we have Dr. Lisa with us to talk about the show and in general, the kind of fascinating aspect of how people just agree to show up and get married and figure the fuck out It is a captivating show. We are super into it. And we have Dr. Lisa up next to talk all about it. You can walk into any of their kitchens and see real human grade ingredients like chicken, beef, carrots and peas being prepared right in front of you. And that's what we're talking about. It's a captivating show. And we have Married at First Sight. And we have Dr. Lisa with us to talk about the show. And we have Dr. Lisa up next. And we have Dr. Lisa up next. And we have Dr. Lisa up next. And we are And that kind of transparency says a lot. Married at First Sight. And we have Dr. Lisa up next. And we have Dr. Lisa up next. And we have Go grab your pack of G2 Boost today at Walmart. G2 Boost. Cues to power you. Dr. Lisa, welcome to the show. Nick, I am so excited to talk to you. Oh my God, likewise. Likewise. Very excited. I mean, I'm loving this show. I can't believe I slept on Married at First Sight for so long. I can't believe you slept on it either. I need a little foreplay though. I want to like warm up with you because you and I have stuff in common before. I mean, we can go right now. We can go right now. We can go right now. No, please. I need the foreplay. I don't get the sleep I need, so I need to wake me up. It's early. Yeah. Watch how unsexy my foreplay is. I too have twins. That's awesome. How old are yours? How old are yours? So I have, I heard you and I have like a big parallel. I'm going to stack it up. I can blow your mind. I also have an age difference in my marriage. I have one older son, and then we have twins right after. So mine are all boys, but I have the older and then the twins. Mine are also teenagers now. But you have all, you have the all boy thing and I have the all girl thing. And you have the older thing and then the two twins after. Yeah. Wow. How are you holding up? That's what I really want to know. How are you doing? Objectively great. Yeah. Like great. But like on a daily basis. Pretty good. Yeah. Like Rivers, like River. She said, be honest. River is like, it's like the best age. She's two and a half and like, she's so cute. And like, and obviously now like really bonding. Both with me and Natalie, she's always bonded with Natalie, but now I'm definitely been like the beneficiary of like her feeling. Totally. You know, but she's also only two and a half. And I, do you have any expertise in child psychology? I mean, I am a classically trained clinician, so I can, I can meet you wherever you need to be. Well, she's like only two and a half. And it's my understanding that at her age, her brain's a little like, you know, it's new, it's, it's underdeveloped. And she's like, feel like she's in this kind of weird, gray area where she's, she's pretty sharp. So she's learning things pretty quickly. And so as parents, it's like, you know, but she knows how to not listen and she's kind of, she's becoming more self-aware. And, and I think we're just very confused on like, is she too young to punish? Like she like, likes to talk back and she's just, she's turning into a real, you know. Sassy. And it's, it's, it's, it, yeah, it's, it, there's some challenges with, you know, because it's like, we obviously want her to start listening, but it's like, is it, is it, are we, are we wasting her time with these lessons yet? I don't know. No. And it's also like really cute. And that's, you know. Right, right. You'll strike the balance. Yeah. And then the twins, the, the crying, it's, they're so cute, but it's like, oh my God, really? And they're crying twice. There's two. Oh my God. It's, but anyways, they're all lovely. And it kills a relationship. I mean, yeah, you're a family, but sexy, it's not for now. Doing okay on that department. We both have the can't wait mentality. So there's that. So the, the, the fire is still cooking, so to speak. All right. We haven't, we haven't heated anything up lately. No, I, I was not thinking you had, but my condolences until that time comes again. It will be so good though. Yeah, no, I, yeah, I can't wait. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. I, that was my foreplay. I was like, we have connection. I mean, it's a landing. I love it. We'll have to, uh, hope maybe, maybe this will be part one of an ongoing friendship and relationship between the. I have a feeling. I have a feeling. Again, just like, I can't believe I slept on a married at first sight. What a fascinating show. I'm kind of convinced this was maybe the future of love and dating. Dr. Lisa, what do you think? It's kind of amazing, right? So I think it's maybe the future and also a throwback to big traditions. So if you think about that, it's kind of like modern matchmaking that goes in other more traditional cultures, right? Like arranged marriage is not a new concept. It's just not a common concept in our culture. So this is kind of like arranged marriage, except it's not your parents arranging you. It's matchmakers and clinics, you know? Well, I just kind of find it fascinating. And I'm curious your perspective as someone, obviously, who works with couples, you're an expert in this field, but I'm sure you've noticed, you know, that what we've noticed just following relationships on a more casual, like kind of approach is that people are just can't, like, they don't know how to lock in. They don't know how to commit everyone, you know, that's paralysis of choice out there in terms of like dating, you know, all these like labels of like, we're exclusive, we're boyfriend and girlfriend. It's just all very confusing. You're like, you watch Love Island and you're just like, how do you ever get into a committed relationship? What I've learned having some relationships and the one I have with Natalie at the end of the day, especially when it comes to a marriage, it's just like, you either just both decide to make it work or, or you, or you don't, you know, obviously that's an overly simplified thing to say, but there is so much, so much truth. You're just like, you're just, you either decide you're in this thing and you're just going to fit, you're going to do what it takes to make it work. And then obviously it requires reciprocity from your partner. You can't just be one person deciding to do that while the other person's like, oh, we'll see. Which I'm sure happens in, in a lot of, of relationships, but you watch this and you're like, you know, if two people are just like, fuck it, I'm committed to this thing. They have a fighting shot. Yeah. Listen, I've worked with couples for almost 21 years now and you're hitting the nail on the, I actually don't think you're oversimplifying it. It really requires work. Like my skin crawls when people come in and they're like, we knew it was over when it stopped being easy. And I'm like, what do you have? What do you value in your life that comes easy? Like for real, really like your cute body, your nice car, your degree, your podcast, like anything you value, look, your daughter and her behavior, anything you value requires thought work, intentionality, great relationship, great sex too, but great relationships are no different. And so I think we've gotten into such like a, oh, if it doesn't feel good in the moment, let's keep it moving. And so you're a hundred percent right. That decision to be like, I'm going to dig in and commit, um, is one of the critical features. I mean, listen, you know, you got to have the attraction. There has to be compatibility, but that willingness to, to not just cut and run at the first little bit of either a downturn or, uh, you know, you're not going to be able to an attraction plateau. That's, that's the ticket. I'm curious, uh, when you're, when, with the matchmaking aspect of this show, what are some of the things that you, like compatibility, physical attraction, some of these things that like, you know, anyone who's dating is like, that's what you know, that's kind of the things that we're looking for early on, on a, on a date, which ones are more of the relation of the vibe killers with these couples. Yeah. Okay. Let me come at it this way. I'm going to give you like a long winding answer. It's a really more intensive process than I think people realize, because at high level, we all say the same shit. Watch this. I want trust. I want to be attracted to someone. I want someone that's fit. I want someone that I can travel with or watch a sunset, right? We all have sort of the same like headlines. You really have to peel back. And this is, I think the critical thing, what that means for you, right? Like get into the specifics because I don't think the headlines mean much. I think we really need to find out like, what does it mean for you? How do you want to live your life next to someone? Do you like them? So we're looking for compatibility, but not compatibility on those sort of, you know, I want to be, we all want to be attracted. I want to laugh. I want to laugh too. What makes you laugh, right? It's that everyone says, oh, I want to laugh. I want to have a good time. I hate roller coasters. If you love roller coasters, we both say we want a good time. We're not going to have the same good time, right? So really peeling back, like what does life look like for you? And how do you want to live this life with someone? I think is one of the things I'm always looking for. And actually what research shows is really a great predictor of relational satisfaction. I think I understand what you're saying. And I've, I've ever since I met my wife can kind of been echoing this, which is like my relationship with Natalie is like the first relationship I had where I never felt like we, we were competing with things and making simple decisions on a daily basis was simple. Like, what do we want to eat for dinner? Like, what do we, what do we want to do for fun? Like what shows or movies we want to watch? And is, is, is, and I, and that was something early in my relationship life I took for granted because I was like, no, no, no, I don't have to worry about that stuff because love is enough. And I, that was like some kind of high level spiritual like thing that I thought. And then, you know, and it turns out it's not because you're like after day four of negotiating lunch, you're just like, you know what? Eat whatever the fuck you want. I don't give a shit. I hate you. I hate you. You, I think you said something that I echo so deeply. And most people are like heartbroken when I say love is not enough. And the way I talk about it with people is think about family members. We have family members that we love that you would, you would die for, you would do a lot for, but that you don't actually want to be in the same room with for longer than 10 minutes. Oh my God. I would never, I would never have dinner with some of my siblings alone. That and yet. I'm not going to say who, I love you all. Yeah, right, right. But, but actually wanting to move through life with them for longer than, than 10 or 20 minutes. No. So we, we rest on this very romanticized idea of like, to do again, do they make me laugh or whatever, whatever the headline is and will love be enough? No, you have to like them. I'm always looking for likability. And in matchmaking, that's one of the things is their likability factor. Cause love, love comes also with time. Listen, I've seen many, many couples in my practice who have family and they end up divorced and blah, blah, blah. They still love each other. They wish well for each other, but they no longer like each other. Which is no longer a good match. So it's that likability, that compatibility, that do you have the same metrics of how you want to move through life? I couldn't agree more. Cause I always say that where I was like, I think that I've been in a relationship for nine years and I'm like, the biggest thing is that liking each other. Cause I was like, I can love somebody and hate them at the same time. But I'm like, when we love each other and we like each other, we're the best of friends. But like when you're pissing me off or whatever, it's like that love is still there. But I'm like, it's just so important to hold on to that. Like that best friend factor in a relationship. Totally. So that's one of the things I'm always looking for. Exactly what you just said, that likability, that compatibility, because the love is a steady, hopefully, but it's not actually the savior that people think it is. So it's the, it's that, do I like you? Do I want to hang with you? Dr. Lisa, I'm curious. Uh, we, uh, this is a TV show. And so I'm just curious when you guys are casting it and not, cause I know, I know how much casting actual casting you're doing. Yeah. I guess more just like, what is a common theme with all of your shows? All the people who show up willing to do this, are there kind of character traits that you notice or is it, is it a wide spectrum of the type of people who are willing to be like, yeah, no, I'll, I will marry whoever you tell me to. No, no, no. This is a great question. It is a massive spectrum. I think what people don't realize is we go through hundreds of human beings that are looking for love. So it is like a very, very comprehensive dive and not just people that are like, well, I want to be on TV. So I'll do what you want. Right? No, no. And one of the things that I have been so joyfully surprised at and seems to be a common thread with everyone that is coming on is that there are all these like really smart, beautiful, good people who are saying a similar thing, which is like, I'm just hitting a wall. I figured I'd try something crazy or I'm just hitting a wall. I figured I'd give it a go to do something different. I was always the black sheep in my family. I'm going to do something outside of the box. Like, but the, the common thread truthfully is that they're all like, I really, I want love and it's not working. The apps aren't working. The, you know, everyone wants to be like, oh, I want to be introduced by a friend. Yeah. But everyone's friend group is only so big, right? So the concentric circles are only so big and they hit a wall there. And then the apps are only so happy. And so they hit a wall there and they're like, I, I really am looking for something that that's been one of the common threads is that like true, genuine desire to see, does something wild and crazy actually pan out? I rely on experts because what I've been doing so far has not worked. I mean, they're there because it's what they're doing in the wild isn't working, you know? Yeah. So the theme is desperation and frustration. I'm coming up close on it, guys. Yeah. I like that we have the two chairs that are nice. I want to touch on that because I totally see how that can be a thought. I'm going to come in and it's going to sound like a little fuzzy, but I actually think the theme is hope. Like I always, they believe in it. I'm a cynic, but. Yeah. Yeah, sure. But they believe in it. I mean, they're, they believe in love. I don't think it's that they're desperate. I think they're like, let's give it a, I've still fucking believe that someone's out there for me. Well, also maybe you could even argue that there's a little bit of, I'll call it humility or just, but I think what it is, is I think there's an acknowledgement that we've all kind of gotten fucked up a little bit and, and, and our pickers are so off. And the things that like an acknowledgement of like, you know, honestly, the stuff I've learned about relationships online or on podcasts or the apps is like, you know, it's like, there's so much advice out there. You don't even know what to discern or what to take. And by the time you get in a relationship, we're all just kind of messed up and we're a little like dated and it's just like a mess. And so you're like, you know, putting, putting ourselves in the hands of people like you. It's like, you know what I, what I have is I want to make a marriage work. And if you have that, and I can trust someone to have my best interest in mind, maybe I have a better shot than like what I've been doing for myself lately. You said something earlier when we first started talking about decision fatigue. And I think that you're like dovetailing into it, which is there's also something about being like, I am exhausted. Do it for me. Like, by the way, if you've ever looked into how much it costs to employ a matchmaker, it is tens of thousands of dollars. Right. So I think also there's an opportunity here that's like, wait, someone is going to deep dive into getting to know everything about me, everything I'm looking for, everything that I've been through and then try and find compatibility, likability, et cetera. And I don't have to decide like it's done for me. I think there's something attractive or appealing about that process too. For that reason, you said earlier that like how many filters and boxes can people check on an app and how many little one liners that make you sound, you know, interesting and witty that they're just like, you do it for me. I think it sounds great for a lot of people. I have a question about what I feel like might be one of the hardest parts for you guys and maybe the people who are signing up for this as well, or just in general, like if I were to let somebody match make truly something like that for me, you, how can you possibly know how somebody actually handles conflict? That to me is like the biggest thing because I'm like, yeah, sure. We're we get along great. We have all these compatibilities, but if somebody is like a total dick in my first big fight, I'm sorry. I'm like, I'm not trying to deal with this. Like I do not like, like the way people handle conflict is so important to me, but it takes a couple months to see how that really looks. But you guys can't possibly know because I'm sure people come in and they're like, I'm very communicative. I try to validate and like all the therapy talk that we've all learned. But then when you have to practice it, I feel like we've already started seeing it on the show. I'm like, Oh my gosh, like these people know the right thing to say, but I'm starting to see a little bit of the, you know, listen, we all know the right thing to say until we're triggered. We you're asking a great question. So I want to speak to you about that. I'm going to ask you a question. So I want to ask you a question. So I want you to you assess for conflict style, right? And it's a deep dive into some people are conflict avoidance, some people. And interestingly, research shows that it's okay to fight or disagree in a relationship so long as you have similar styles. So we're always assessing for like, I would never put a high conflict avoidant person with a high conflict person who loves it. Right. We know that that is not going to be healthy, but so it's compatibility of conflict style and conflict resolution style. Do you get a guarantee that once someone is totally triggered that we're the best version of our conflict style? I don't, I'm not. Have you ever gotten in a fight with your significant, right? Like best, best version of ourselves go out the window. So we can't control all the way, but here's the thing. I don't actually look to make the perfect, like, Oh my God, I'm guaranteeing that they are going to love well, fight well, are they going to have the best opportunity, right? We're looking for like a similar to you give your, for Nick, who's the dad, right? You give your kid every opportunity in the world. You don't get a guarantee that they're going to be, like killer successes. You're going to lay out everything you can for them to say like, I'm going to set you up with every tool, every opportunity, everything that seems like a good fit for you and hope you hope you can do it in the world. And so like, that's sort of how I go into the matchmaking process, right? It's like, we will deep dive into every, every facet of your style, your attraction style, your intimacy style, your conflict resolution, your family of origin, how you want to move through life. And then there's the pieces that are like, and then it's up to them, right? So we get them as close as we can. And to your point, you know, there's, there's the X factor that I'm not even trying to account for. That's, that's the piece that makes this human, right? Is that like, they're not robots. You're saying so much. I feel like I could talk to you for, for hours about this stuff, especially the, uh, the conflict kind of spectrum. Anyways, I want to ask you a couple of questions about specifically your cast, uh, Adam and Nick. Yeah. Adam, I find interesting because Adam comes across as this like, he's intense, you know, like, and, and very rigid, you know, and like, in some ways I could see, I, you know, like, I guess with all these people, you always see parts of yourself in them, but like, he is, I could see how he could be very, he, he likes what he likes. And he's very like, you know, I was someone like that who has a very specific personality and very intense personality. How do you go about matching someone like, like Adam? Because I, I, I, I imagine that like it, you know, kind of the Susie's point, I'm not even specific about how he might fight, but it's all good. And as long as Adam feels like it's going Adam's way, because like, he just strikes me as a guy who's like, kind of been very successfully independent and like been able to do his thing. Like so many, I think like 30 somethings out there who are single and you realize, you know, I was single for a long time in my thirties. And I, I at least was grateful. I had the self-awareness been like, I must be getting really selfish because I've only answered to myself for the past eight years. And I'm curious. Yeah. Someone like him, is there more, you know, if someone who has a very like successful, very rigid lifestyle, are they harder to match? And then Nick, I'm curious, this is the person who also went on a bunch of reality TV shows. What was your just general opinion about matching him? And, and, and were you nervous about his, his kind of genuineness about coming on the show? Yeah. Who do you want first? Let's start with Adam. Adam is rigid. Adam is a person who is in pursuit of excellence though. Right. And that's just the truth. And I recognize that reads is rigid and he is rigid, but he's rigid because he strives for excellence. And so, I mean, that's first and foremost. And I think that, listen, if you're going to match people, you gotta, you gotta love them, right? You gotta be able to get behind them for who they are at their best and not be like, Oh, this is, this is this person's massive flaw. Right. I don't actually see Adam's rigidness as his fly. I do think it's a pursuit of excellence. Uh, with someone like Adam, someone who is equally as stern as him, I think you would see a clash of heads. I think with someone like Adam, you're looking for who is also excellent in their own right, but who has just enough softness and fluidity that, you know, you don't have two pieces of steel that won't bend. Right. And so again, do you get a guarantee of what that means? I don't know, but I look for where there's going to be something that looks like this, right? We are both excellent in our own right. Um, but, but one might be able to bend. Imagine two people that live so loud on 10 it's clash of Titans. You know, what are all the sayings? You can't have too many cooks in the kitchen type of thing. So, but Adam, Adam is excellent. He pursues and he holds himself to that. And he demands people around him to raise up, you know, so, uh, that to your point, when you said you see yourself in him, I think it's a good thing. I think it's a good thing. I think we all see traits of ourselves in these when you either are like, that's awesome or you're put off by it. But well, you just got, yeah, I think you, as you get older, you just recognize some of your more intense parts of your personality and you realize it's like about, it's a strength and a weakness. It depends on who you're in the room with. You know, what I always say is I think the goal is never to shut it off. Like we're cooked. We are who we are. Right. The cake is big. It's raising or lowering the volume. Right. So can we find people that help us sort of raise the volume that are awesome and lower the parts of lower the volume on the parts of ourselves that are not right. Like I'm always going to be a neurotic person. I'm less neurotic when my husband's in the room. Right. He makes me a little better. I'm never not going to be that though. You know, uh, and what about, what about Nick? I like, you know, I there, it's funny. You said, was I nervous to match him? Not Nick is a great guy. Uh, I don't know. Would I be nervous to match a gynecologist because he looks at vaginas all day and someone might be intimidated. No, these are the people they are. They're, they're real people. And this is, if that's his history, then that's what we're working with. Right. I don't know. Not at all. I really, like I said, to, to do it and do it well and put your heart into it and to feel like these people are trusting you, you, I wasn't coming from a cynical lens of like, Oh, what you can't and, and do a good job, you know? So no, that's his, that's his story. That's his history. He had been on reality TV shows, right? Okay. That's awesome. Uh, Dr. Lisa, thank you for taking the time. I know you have to get going. Do you have to come back? We have more questions. I would love to come back. You guys are great. In the meantime, I'm, you know what we didn't talk about too. I'm in an older, you have an age split in your marriage too. Well, that was my, I wasn't at the, my last question is your husband's 20 years older than you. So, and my wife is 18 years younger than me. How long you guys been married for? 20. We've been together 24 years married. It'll be 20 this April. So as your husband, I have so many questions, but my biggest question is, is like, as he's gotten older, yeah. How have you guys kept the fire alive? Because like, I'm, I'm just, I'm, I'm, I'm more afraid than my wife. Like, I'm just more like, you know, am I at some point, am I just going to be fucking old to her? Cause like now you can't tell if I'm old, but like at some point, I mean, yes, you're going to be older. Listen, if we thread the needle of this conversation all the way through it's choice and intentionality, right? Like that's it. He's also my, like he's older. And he's hot and he's hot, you know, he's hot. Okay. And he does, he makes it nice. He makes it nice. I think he does. He makes it nice. Does he have like an age expert? Does he, does he do any of the, uh, age? Like, does he have like a guy? He's in excellent shape. I mean, he takes great care of himself and he's young at heart. I mean, right. Like all the things that you're going to be, he's energetic and he's dialed in and all the things, but people grow together or they grow apart. Age is one metric. It could be someone who like takes off in their career and then the housewife that stays home, those couples grow apart, even if they're the same age, right? Potentially not always. So that's going to be the thing that you'll have to take care of in your marriage, right? Is that you guys stay relevant to each other. This could show up in a million different ways. If you were the same age, I know we're off on a different tangent. I could talk about this for years. Thank you so much. This is so much fun. Please come back. We appreciate you taking the time. We know you have to get going. Uh, congrats on married at first sight. Such a fun show. We'll continue to talk about it. And again, really appreciate you taking the time, Dr. Lisa. Thank you. Good luck with the girls. And it was so nice to meet everyone on the couch. Thank you for having me. Nice to meet you. She's fab. She's so interesting. Loved her. I liked her a lot. I'm like, wait, where is she based out of? Like, can I get a contact? Miami? Hey, we do long distance therapy. I might lie and switch back. The only thing I did, we didn't have time to ask her. Cause I am curious about like the, the, the pairing of Nikki and I was like, that was the only question that I had in my mind. Is it the idea of like, were you, when you see the reaction, like a TV casting thing? Well, I was just wondering if it was more so like, cause seeing her reaction to seeing him and you see all these great reactions of like, okay, this is going to be my husband. I'm just like, is there ever like a little ping of just like, dang, or like, is it like, you just wait and let it simmer? Like, you know, something they don't know when they meet each other kind of thing. Yeah. I assume if we got a chance to ask her, there would have been a method to her madness of pairing. But Nikki just seems like someone who good for her. And it would be the same for me. Physical attraction matters, you know, like, you know, and I feel like a handful of questions about that physical attraction would have gotten, they could have eliminated John, you know, it's just like, he's a, I'm curious if she's more, if she's more optimistic, I find my, I find this in myself sometimes where I'm like, I really don't care so much about looks. And I, and I like think that I don't, but then sometimes I'm like, Oh, I guess I do a little, you know, where I feel like if I'm, if somebody were asking me for matchmaking, I'm like, I would be super open-minded if everything else was there. And I do believe that. But I wonder if that's how she went into her conversations. Like I'm ambitious. I want somebody who makes this much money. Like these are my top priorities. She talked about that more. Yeah. I wonder if that's what did it. Yeah. I wonder if there's like a world and I wish we could have asked her this of like, um, if there are certain things that you value, like, let's say maybe there was information Sean and Nikki that like, we're just so compatible and so perfect for each other that they saw that they were like, just let them cook. Because I think that'll, you know what I mean? Like maybe it just like outweighed on the metric scale. He's got a spicy personality. He's got like a great deal of confidence. Charisma. Charisma. He's got the risk. He reminds me of one of my best friends. He's now married with kids. But when I, when I met him, um, it was like during my reality TV days, he's shorter. Uh, he's very just like unassuming. And he has, he's also from the South and he has a drawl. Uh, a lot of women when meeting him thought he might be gay. um and he just like but he just has the most confidence and he's one of the most charismatic people i've ever met and this the way he would pull women uh was incredible um and the sean reminds me of this guy where at look you at first glance at a party like he he just he was so self aware because he knew that like when he would show up people like he wouldn't like be checked out in a way say another guy would but and he knew that he could kind of he knew he was like a safe space like and walls go down it's like oh yeah like it's like you actually you know he's making out with a girl on dance floor she's like wait i thought you were gay you know no and i'm taking you home tonight yeah just because he was he's a shorter guy he had like just kind of uh it just his mannerisms were like more just a little you know flamboyant um and he just that's his who he is you know and he didn't he didn't check himself and he just was comfortable in his skin and that ultimately is this very charismatic guy but that's hot yeah it's and i imagine that's why like i i see a lot of sean and him where it's just like i am who i am and you may think a lot of me but what i am at the end of the day is like kind of awesome yeah i'm a dogger i'm super fair and charismatic and like you know um and sean seems like a guy who's who's knows what it's like to be overlooked yeah or you know and i think he's i think he's proved a lot of people wrong throughout his life and so i that's why i don't think sean is even uncomfortable in the situation with nikki yeah i think he's spent his whole life proving people around he knows he can pull i will yeah i will say he seemed a little shocked when she was like oh you know i need the physical side to build and he was like oh this is the first time i'm hearing that you weren't immediately attracted to me and she was like but did you not see that sean yeah right that's why i was kind of like oh i'm i'm surprised he didn't like pick up on that and that he had to verbally hear that because even similar to uh love is blind they a lot of the people say when you first meet that person you aren't attracted to them they're like and it's not even that they aren't attractive it's just that you're it's the first time seeing somebody an attraction usually builds with time and understanding someone's mannerisms and like that kind of comes naturally it's just more jarring i couldn't like the whole whether it's the love is blind reveal yeah or this one where it's like your wedding day just to your point just the how your brain can't process all the things that you're trying to like they first of all how they look they dress their smell their voice it's all just got to be so the little twitch fucking intense like we're just like yeah no i think love is blind might actually be harder to wrap my brain around because then you've had all these conversations with somebody and started to like make up what this person looks like so then it's like if it's the polar opposite it's like i have to get over this and then it's like i have to get over this and then it's like i have to get over this and then that shock and mourn of somebody i've never met where i'm like at least married at first sight it's like all right uh here's a couple things about their personality as a gift it either touches you or it doesn't and then it's like this is the person but this it didn't this this cast is hot oh yeah beautiful people like i was gonna say like everybody has like legitimate jobs too yeah i mean like that's what that was my first takeaway is like you know you this the show premise without watching it you're just like all right we like to make fun of our country you know people like to make fun of our the people in this country it's a thing americans there's a lot of people in this country and if you want to feel better about yourself you can pull from your you know our and and try to make fun of people in america sure yeah and you would and you would think this premise would you would if you would it would pull from the the depths of america that you like to make fun of yeah wherever that is arranged marriages i'm pretty sure every other country has a long stay like but for like us to make a show concept or around it like i totally agree oh yeah it's most american i couldn't get into it at first just because i was like i don't know the premise is so ridiculous it feels like a premise that didn't but i don't think it is where married at first sight started because it feels british i think this is a future no mike but that's i was a slow burn with the show and as i'm watching it the more so i'm kind of like believing what i'm seeing yeah it's giving me like a 90 day fiance feel you just i mean honestly you're just gonna pick someone it originated in denmark by the way exactly it sounded like something you're like someone swedish and european would come not dead whatever you know blondes i went out on a date with a guy from a match making service he he hired the matchmaker and i was approached on instagram took the call and i was like i'm open-minded to this but i think what i realized is that the matchmaker in this case was looking out for the guy you know what i mean she was like you're like yeah you fit all his boxes and sure like i did an interview and like my non-negotiables were technically there or whatever but i'm like it when it's matchmaking one-sided they're prioritizing their client rather than you were you weren't the paying client no no no i was like recruited to go on a date with somebody who was a they were like oh yeah yeah yeah yeah but it's a tv show or a legitimate matchmaking just legitimate matchmaking i like went on a date with this guy i imagine that's how like the industry works right you have people and they have to find you have to basically like hiring a job recruiter yeah yeah that's so sad but you have to you have to find a pool of people to be like but you would think it would be like an agency or something that you would submit being like i you know if you find somebody to match me with and i happen to well how do you get that pool right i mean ideally i mean it's an imperfect system ideally you'd probably imagine once someone is dedicated and passionate and willing to spend the thousands of dollars it takes but that it would incredibly limit your pool and if the matchmaking service can pull on friends or the internet or whatever and then they say they do their due diligence or whatever but to your point yeah it makes sense that like they were probably like oh a catch she's attractive nice like what's not to like all right yeah can i ask you a question is it not like maybe i'm wrong is it is it not like sad i don't like there's like a lack of romance it seems in dating now and it's just like what do you mean of course like the matchmaking aspect of it not even the matchmaking aspect just like everything like all these conversations we have and everyone has it's just like we're trying to figure it out and we're trying to like i would you know what i take i mean i think there's too much romance what hear me out in the sense if i'm pulling from the premise good for you natalie yeah i don't i don't mean i don't i don't mean like i don't mean i give my wife too many flowers i mean i mean we're hyper obsessed with the romance aspect of relationships so much and and again i think when it comes to dating like we're just that's not really what i'm asking well that's maybe it's what you made me think about anyway i just think like think about it's just like there's dating has become just like an a sport you know that's what i mean just like just you got you have to you have to engage but it's like you're but it's we're focusing on like batting averages almost versus like actual connection i think i think that's what's ruined yeah romance in general i don't like i don't know how to date somebody i just mean like you have to i think people are i meant like their people are hyper focused on i mean you want obviously you want romance in a relationship but it i don't know how to date somebody i don't know how to date somebody i really mean it like when like you watch like being in a marriage and again a relatively new relationship but i'm just saying like i know you've been in a relationship for a long time like again you just have to you have to wake up and be like i want to be in this relationship and then you just have to do things every day where you're like i would i would if i were alone i would do it differently you know and and every day there's a million decisions that is required and then you have to put a good face on and you have to have a good attitude and then you have to be like you know what i'm i'm gonna actually try to like and and then there's days where you like you you still don't want to do it you know and then you you know like that's a relationship and it it requires so many a million decisions like that every day and i think that's the part of relationships that is is lost on people who are dating these days and it was lost on me and when i was single for a long time because we're just hyper focused on it's like now dating is i'm gonna go to therapy and i'm gonna do this work on myself i'm gonna learn about my attachment style i'm gonna learn about all the things i like and then i have to find someone who like fits all these like fucking boxes and and does all these things and like none of that really matters and and unless you have to find someone who's like are you gonna like do you like me yeah not even do you like like well sure the like part is aspect but like are you gonna are you gonna quit on me are you gonna like or do you do you want do you want to be in a relationship like you know i'm saying do you want to be in a marriage do you want to know me do you want me to be a part of your everyday or do you like the idea of having somebody by your side but like until the second that it's not perfect and i think dating has become too much of finding this like twin flame soulmate like perfect match and it's like versus finding someone who wants to be in a relationship and and wants to like figure it the fuck out with you every day that to me has been what is most frustrating like i was just having this conversation with one of my girlfriends recently where i was like i'm gonna go to a bar and i'm gonna go to a bar and i'm gonna go to a bar it's like there is truly somebody for everybody there are women that don't really want or need a serious relationship label they just want to have a little fun whatever but so i personally have found so many guys say they want a relationship and i don't know if they actually believe that they do or if they're just saying that to get you to date them for a little bit but it's like you don't have to lie to me because i would maybe be down to go out and have a little fun for a couple of weeks until somebody who is ready for a relationship but when you tell somebody like i really am looking for x y and z i want a relationship but they they actually don't they are they're not ready nobody knows what i just don't think anybody actually knows what they want at an early stage of dating and i don't get why that's just not okay to say sometimes you know what i mean like be honest and it's okay to like the other thing is i'm like yeah but i think there's not knowing what you want and i think there's a difference between your point i think i'm like probably if i'm wrong i'm assuming you're dating men old enough to should know the difference of they want to make it work in a relationship or they just want to like i don't know like have a few fun a couple dates and maybe have some sex and we'll see and we'll see yeah you know and i'm curious is like what are what are how what does that relationship cycle look like for you like what what are some things that you notice in the men that you've dated who who ultimately like demonstrate that like they're not looking for what they claim they're looking for you know it's funny because i feel like you always kind of clock it at the beginning you there's there's something there's like whether it's how they speak about their past relationship or whether it's how they talk about their past relationship or whether it's how they talk about their past relationship or even watching this show how some people are just like over therapized where they like have these words and i'm like you have this cognitive ability to understand and recognize things but you've obviously not been able to make it work but you you know the right things to say and it's almost i feel like you can kind of clock it at the beginning but you want to you want to see it through and you're like okay well i mean you didn't say anything wrong but it's like this i feel like there's this intuition where i i have learned i just need to like listen to that because it's like i don't know i don't know even if they're saying the right things it's it's it's different for everybody i guess but i don't know i feel like do you feel like when you're dating you've had opportunities or opportunities show up kind of organically where you both have to or specific in your case the men have to show a willingness to compromise like or do something you know what i'm saying where it's just like i think that he's doing this because i want to do this and i feel that and like in a you know what i'm saying as opposed to yes you know that's been i am so like i'm so flexible like i'm like i'll do whatever like for the most part i'm like i'm down for whatever but when i have a say it is really hurtful to me when i'm with somebody and and i'm like oh no i actually really want sushi tonight i'm like it's so rare that i like really want something passionately that when somebody won't have flexibility um it like is truly hurtful to me because i'm like i'm i will give you whatever you want five six days of the week and i'm like i'm not gonna give you whatever week if i want sushi one night like i would love for you to want me to have what i want too but i find that people who are rigid are attracted to me because i am very flexible and fluid like that so i find myself in situations a lot because i i am pretty go with the flow and i'm like well i don't care like i enjoy most things i'm pretty laid back whatever but then i find myself in these situations but i find it like irks me i'm like i i want somebody to be selfless i want somebody who wants me to have what i want but i find myself so often and maybe i'm attracted to that too like i don't know if that's something on my end i i get that as someone that's like like a chiller yeah i'm like we're pretty sick yeah like a chiller chiller or whatever you yeah i think it's like sometimes like i want somebody that's gonna be like no you're gonna do that and sometimes i'm like okay yes i know what i mean i love a leader i love like yeah but then i think there's a mutual there's also a mutuality yeah you gotta be able to switch it up but it takes a minute to i think for me it takes a minute to get to the point in a relationship where i'm like i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this i'm gonna do this where i'm actually like i'll be chilling for a long time but then i'm like hey like i actually want this and when i it takes a minute to realize oh you don't reciprocate the respect or the what was the way you say that like the the compromise people don't want to always compromise back and i think the thing i've and i'm curious you i'm assuming you've experiencing your relationship with connor but like there's obviously now and i have a lot of differences and there's things that like i'm just particular about there's things that she's i'm more particular than she is yeah she has her preferences or whatever and you know we show up in so many different ways but it's just knowing that like i know that nally is willing to do things for me and for us now and like we're willing to do different things but there is a desire to make each other happy or there's it's just a desire to make the other person feel good or or when the other person is stressed or down or whatever there is a you feel that are you okay you know that right in a way that like i think a lot of people aren't don't right i've struggled to find and that's the thing it's like this kind of very it's not a it's it's just that feeling you just know they they give a fuck yeah you know i think it's kind of scary because i'm thinking about what you were saying about um these men kind of showing up with the right things to say but then when it comes down to having to put it into action that it's almost a polar opposite yeah and it's giving this like pseudo self-awareness because it's like i can talk about myself and in a way but when it actually comes to implementing it then that's when i feel threatened or it feels like you've changed or something and that's when they get triggered or whatever right and i think even to your point where i'm like i feel like especially with you and natalie but like i think with i think when i met connor like i was getting out of a long-term relationship had been single for a few months and was just kind of like i don't want a relationship so i showed up as the most authentic version of myself same with him yeah so it's like because we both kind of didn't think it did to be completely honest we were just like okay i'm meeting you where you're at you're meeting me where i'm at where i'm like i think a lot of people getting into dating situations they try to put their best foot forward whatever that means to them and it's usually a mask it's not real and so i used to always say i give a relationship dating three months about three months is when the mask starts to fall off you can't keep the facade up anymore and you start seeing the real versions of themselves get into a year you're gonna see even more unpack and then by like two three years i think that's when it's like okay i can't i know what i'm dealing with here so i'm just like i don't know i just feel like where if people are showing up as their most authentic self and it's very easy to ask for the things that you need when you're trying to show up as a person that has it all together that's perfect that can go with any flow that you that you bring at me because i don't like to cause conflict i'm like then you get yourself in these situations to where it's like you feel almost awkward or bad or guilty for like admitting the fact that you don't like something or you don't want to do something or you don't fuck with that yeah and i'm like i think that's what gets a lot of people or like why this whole like dating situation is so fucked is because i'm like a dating profiles you're just putting a resume out there of all of your best features best qualities best pictures i love dogs i go fishing with my friends i'm so active i hike i do all these things where maybe throughout the week that's not every day yeah but then all of a sudden it's like this like act to have to keep up where i just think that when you meet somebody where you're at and when they're willing to be authentic with you that's where like the magic happens in my opinion i don't even know if i'm answering this question correctly but i'm like i do think that a lot of people put on an act to be authentic with you that's where like the magic happens in my opinion i don't even know to try to present themselves as this perfect person yeah and then that's when it's like oh you don't want to do this anymore like now i'm triggered now you're not the person you said you were and it's like okay well i can be that i can do that but that's not who i am yeah you know and i think i had a set of thought listening to you guys talk the like the almost like not the secret sauce but like something you you want to see early in a relationship and i think is the willingness and the ability to adjust and i think and i was thinking about me and natalie and i wonder if we're where our age gap helped us because i think we were well i know i was i think in our own right we both were we were aware of our age gap and and we are aware that like this this might not work out you know and everyone told us about that and i think as a result early on i think we were both willing to be like aware that things could pop up and aware of adjusting to each other and that willingness to adjust you know not lose not like become a different person not like not have the the agency to speak up when i'm saying you know but just to be like okay like i like it this way i do it this way but you do it this way how do we adjust as a couple and our ability to constantly adjust with each other and then become more of like of a unit rather than two individuals i think has been a key to our relationship but i think in a key to any relationship that a willingness to like you all have your preferences you have your likes and dislikes but like i don't know and there's a lot of people who are like when you see someone you're dating or in a relationship adjust for you it just gives you such a oh yeah thanks you know like yeah you know and it's just like uh and it makes you want to do it more for them to be honest yeah and then there's that and then you build that reciprocity that like you know yeah yeah when you because you can talk a big game early on and you can do all these things but if you're not willing to show that you're you can tweak how you show up in the relationship you know then yeah what do you got i think i think that compromise is what makes mutual respect you know what i mean where i'm like if you're willing to bend for me or show up for me in ways that maybe even make you uncomfortable and vice versa and it's like okay i know that no matter what and that's when your partner does become your best friend it's because it's like yeah that relationship is like no matter what goes on in my life like you've got my back and you know how i'm feeling nothing's better than being in a relationship with somebody where they can see you from across the table see you're uncomfortable or struggling and be the first person to be like hey you good or like should we go like you know what i mean because it's like that person knows you and they took the time to understand you where i feel like a lot of people are very about me and my needs being met that they don't have the time or the ability to open up and be like what well what are your needs and how can i cater to that and i think i think the problem with that is that that's a lot of modern it's what you see online it's what and it's also like i've been going to i kind of i started going to therapy like not like a couple months ago and it's i kind of felt I'm not bad about it, like I feel like I'm so happy. started doing it blah blah and like i've been figuring a lot of things out about myself but like that first time you like this is like the first time you no therapy no but the first time i've like stuck with it for a long time because i had some other another therapist i didn't like anyway yeah and i found myself just like in situations now because i have a little bit more awareness of certain aspects of myself prioritizing my own feelings and i've been watching the way that in like romantic situations or in just real life it's just i've watched the way that like almost like centering myself sometimes have like the way other people react to that and it's not always great yeah and i don't and i guess like i don't know i can't tell if that's just because i'm trusting my gut or if i'm being selfish and i think that's a weird thing that like the internet and modern dating gets really confused like like you're realizing like in a like i'm the problem type of thing or you i can't tell no it'll be like oh i figured out like for example part of my like kind of like suzy was saying like i have an issue where like i just want like i'm a pisces mercury i just want peace i want everyone to get along i don't want to cause a big thing like someone if someone else is hurt to me that's like way more important than me yeah like i'm like okay let me fix that and i'm like okay maybe that's a little much i don't need to do that and maybe like if i'm actually like kind of hurt by something i can say that yeah right and then sometimes you start saying that and then people are like okay well i think and like or like in family or whatever and you're just like well what am i supposed to do now yeah and in dating and stuff i think that's like can be a really scary thing where i think because of the way internet like the internet kind of therapy speak that you see on tiktok or whatever you'll see that and you'll react to it and you'll be like oh my god i'm so to that and you'll be like oh i am supposed to be prioritizing myself so now everybody is kind of doing that to each other i guess and then there's no real like communication room for compromise room for compromise so that's what i we have learned the language like yeah the non-negotiables have become like there's we're never gonna negotiate it's just like yeah we've just learned how to center our feelings before others yeah and we and then we've learned how to been like well i'm dating a anxious attack and like we've learned how to be like well i'm dating a anxious attack and we've learned how to diagnose our partners and learned how to prioritize our feelings yeah you can diagnose somebody and then understand yourself yeah and i think that doesn't do anything like what do you what the fuck are you supposed to do with that like well i don't ever thought really that really worked and that's why it's just like you know the you know it's just like it's i think the whole attachment style thing is interesting but the way people are going wait it gives you an excuse for like acting a fool well sometimes i think yeah or to write people off for no reason oh my god you're an anxious attack attachment i don't know then maybe like or make excuses for your partner who's like oh try to not do that they act this you know that's how people make excuses for their partner sometimes it's like well they only do this because they're yeah right it's child it was like well maybe so but they haven't stopped doing it yeah a while and like they they haven't really done anything about it and the diagnosis is the first part this is also two of two close friends of mine just went through like their first big adult breakups and talked to me about it all week yeah so i'm like bro i don't think love is real that was your feedback not to them internally i don't know i don't know when like the two people two of the people you have in your life that you're like ah you made a relationship work don't then and you're the single one you're like ah well tired out there man tough i think as you get older and you kind of you kind of like said this but also contradicted it not actually but you said earlier something about as you got older you're like oh i realize how selfish i must be getting because you're getting really comfortable with your lifestyle alone i think dating and like in my 30s and dating guys that are significantly older within you know a 10-year range or whatever it can go both ways it's either that they recognize oh i need to let go of some things and be selfless and have what we were just talking about this like willingness and desire to be flexible and compromise or they become way too self-centered and they're like i got a good thing going you can either fit into this or you know see you later because somebody will and and surely somebody will fit into it there will be somebody who is like yeah i'm down yeah exactly but it's a i think it goes one way or the other and and i kind of i've found more so it's people get comfortable with their life alone and then they just want somebody to fit into what that looks like that's pretty common money doesn't buy like that's the one thing i've had the opportunity to date some really wealthy people and i'm like yeah but i don't want to just do what you want to do i don't your money's not gonna buy me my happiness all right well we will continue to watch and and talk about married at first sight uh we have like we're like we're halfway done with the episodes there's 20 episodes there's 20 episodes there's nine out we'll continue to dissect and talk about these couples fascinating show uh and hopefully uh when it's all said and done we'll get a chance to uh talk to some of these couples they are unavailable at the moment i'm gonna get through the season but uh we are excited to keep watching and uh we appreciate you guys thank you to our doctors it's been really relationship relationship focused the dr pamela baker and dr lisa for joining us and thank you for listening we'll see you back on thursday