E105: Delian Asparouhov & Nadia Asparouhova: Making Relationships Work

Today on Upstream, we are really excited to share the debut episode of a new podcast covering big ideas in the realm of relationships. Our first episode is with Delian and Nadia Asparuhoff, a couple who has made their mark on tech. Delian is an investor at Founders Fund and the co-founder of Varta Space Industries, and Nadia is a researcher and author. In the conversation ahead, we cover the evolution of their relationship from dating in San Francisco to becoming parents at a relatively young age and all of the thinking behind how they make their relationship work. It's an incredibly candid conversation, and you can subscribe to the show in the links below. In the season ahead, you'll hear from more power couples in tech and leading relationship thinkers like Rob Henderson. Please enjoy. Well, we've been talking about doing this for years, so you guys have been teasing me for for quite a while, so I'm glad we can finally make this happen, thank you. It was Nadia's idea originally or no. I think if you go far enough back, you have a tweet about doing this somewhere where we talked about it. Right, I remember you and I were just going to do it ourselves at some point, and they were like, "Oh, but then Eric, she's interview us at least." There must be a common conversation you guys have. If you go back far enough, there's a tweet. It's true, it's true. Other than me, December 2020, panic deleting status tweets. Yeah, those tweets might actually not be there anymore, but so you guys have been together almost six years. Your relationship and marriage has gotten better as you've been together. You have a beautiful baby. What would have you learned that other, whether it's about partner selection or making a marriage great that other people can learn from? Make marriage great again. Now's the time. You go first, I don't know. Onliners. You said be my one liners. It's got a slogan and that's exactly like it's all I've got. I think the main thing that comes to mind for me with how to make marriage is great is just like putting in a lot less work on the things I thought I had to do a lot more work on. What has worked really well for us I think is just sort of like having this baseline level of trust that we have each other's best interests in heart and not trying to over communicate every single thing. I think a lot of people, a lot of advice you get is about, is always about over communication and always checking in with each other. I was asking how things are going, whatever. And I've just found I think in like prior relationships that can backfire sometimes because then you're just, you're kind of looking for things to talk about all the time and I think what has worked really nicely in our relationship is like honestly sometimes you just don't need to bring up every single little thing and just name your lines laughing because if everyone is going to bring something up it's always going to be me. We actually like recently went through this where like we almost never bring things up but then I think kind of for the fun of it the other week I brought up an argument that we had it like month six of the relationship and it was the should I get to keep the money from the mattress. Oh my god. I do what's funny is like I had I've never wanted to bring it back up but I can't I wasn't going to ask you what you guys fight about so money over the mattress is that really you guys found money on the mattress and you're like okay well this is a very dull in story. When Dylan I started dating we were still you know I was living in my apartment he was living in his house. Dylan was just getting things out ground with eight sleep. Yeah yeah maybe like you're into investing. So very very much an evangelist of eight sleep and decided he was going to get me an eight sleep mattress but he never asked if I wanted my own mattress or you know my original mattress he just replaced it. Without your consent. Without my consent. She like definitely like agreed yeah having. Okay I mean it wasn't complaining it's a nice mattress great mattress but like they like it's part of the sponsor this project. But then the time came for us to move in together then he decided well part of it is that eight sleep at the time had like a professional installation service and so two burly men come in and they're like what do you want to do with your old mattress like you get out of here and so they take the mattress out of here. No that's actually not what I was there. What did the two burly men do in reality is really important. I didn't really have a choice. Yeah they took away my mattress. I was left without my original mattress. I only had this nice fancy wonderful upgraded mattress. However then we moved together. I mean like three months later we were moving in together and so she no longer needed this mattress and so she was like well what should I do with this and so obviously like I pinged a couple of friends out and you had shown interest in eight sleep before. I never asked what. Okay I just knew the mattress was there and I was like well we should like make some money off this. So I should like sell the mattress right and so I'd like texted a couple of friends and I got a buddy that like bought it for like a thousand bucks basically. It was like way lower than retail but it was like whatever they're like getting this mattress. How much money did not he get for her original mattress. Zero zero. I did not even know about sell it. She had the opportunity. She knew that his mattress was coming. My original mattress was a nice mattress. I would have sold it. Okay but you would have but you did it for some reason. Because someone didn't like it. I thought it should be I think I offered 50/50. I was like I should you know. You never originally offered anything. Let me go. Okay. I put it all the effort. I got her the mattress. I found the buyer of the mattress. I felt like I was like oh I'm just helping you get rid of the mattress. It was like ever consulted for any of this. I think it didn't even tell you that he sold it. I think I got a thousand bucks and then it came up later and I was like oh yeah I got a thousand bucks in the mattress. She was like you got a thousand bucks from my mattress. That's fine. Behind her back. Behind her back. No it's not. I really appreciate you showing some of your biggest conflicts. Yeah exactly. Okay so that's an example. I think I was just having fun that day. I wanted to bring it up. Okay so the lesson is repress everything. Right but it's like a fine line. It's not that I'm saying we shouldn't talk about issues when they come up. It's just like a lot of little things that you think you need to talk about. You don't or you can just find more constructive ways to express them. Yeah but I think like what's the more you can talk about it with other people or you can. I wanted to talk about how your friends try to revolts from no or not. I just talk about that. Okay. They stage an intervention on the delian project and check. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We're leaving it at that. If we speak anymore then it'll have to be cut but with that level. There's something about being a launch relationship where I want to aspire to always waking up every day being just like psyched that I'm next to this person and have that be that is the baseline. The baseline is you wake up and you're just like I am thrilled to be with this person. And then once you feel that way and you're kind of leaning into that feeling of just excitement and gratitude then the all the other little stuff just isn't feel that important. Yeah. Yeah. So we're just on that person. So how do you know whether something is worth bringing up or what is a more constructive way of if you're not great. If you don't bring it up but you actually like feel something. How do you deal with that? I do actually want to mention like a point to the earlier question although this one is also you know sort of valuable. I think you know one of the things that I remember thinking in the first like you know see the three or four months of the relationship was up until then every person that I dated I always felt like there was like work that needed to happen in order for like no the relationship to continue to seek seed. And sometimes I was on my end, sometimes I'm there and sometimes I was like the combination of the two especially in the last couple of relationships before and audio. And I think a part of it was like a symptom of San Francisco dating culture and the default like social and political and economic views of people there. I was just so far off from that and I felt like I needed to work in order to be a great partner. I feel like I needed to work towards the consensus San Francisco view because they were well. Can you were based? Yeah. I mean I think there's a multitude of dimensions of that but yes that is like one of the you know sort of dimensions. And I felt like with not it was like oh I don't need to like work on this. I can just like be myself and she likes me for like being myself. And I remember that being like one of the things that you know sort of really yeah sort of struck me which is I think related to this point of like you know the like overcommunications that I didn't feel like I need to be like oh well like this thing that like I said that offended you which like I did offend her a lot in the beginning. She like cried a lot in the first three months. And I remember we had a conversation at one point where I was like I promise like you're just gonna get it like used to me. You're not like I'll change. It's like eventually you'll cry. I was like you'll just come desensitize to these things that I do. Did you change it all? No, I mean I think I can't tell that I've changed what people tell me that I've changed but it's probably the best version of change is like you know all your friends say you're yeah I don't think I change. I feel the exact same. But then you were talking about like when did you know I think this thing that we're probably worst at is like like when is something at the level there are times where it eventually reaches to something that it should be brought up. Yeah. And I think we're not very good at that. Yeah of what? I forget like yeah like like yeah yeah when it's like we have like you know once every five months we have like an extremely important conversation but it happens over like pillow talk kind of randomly. And mostly obviously you end up you know. Mostly it's your show. Well that's not that it's your show. Sometimes I just think that I'm doing obviously but like you're the one to be like this is now at a time where yeah you get his time to talk about it. Yeah I don't know I mean I think everyone has an intuition of like what are your non-negotiables or one of the things where you just like I need to have this thing done or whatever. And and there's a time and a place to bring it up. So yeah I don't really have like a clean perfect answer to it. I just mine early on was that you had to learn how to ski. That was my only idea. All the grudges. Which you did do. And I think you felt a lot of pressure too which is kind of funny like she was like because I told her I was like my family over Christmas and like holidays. All we do is like we like ski together. And I remember this like I don't remember the exact conversation. We had some conversation where you're like I feel like I like have to look like. It's really hard to ski. Yeah yeah. Let me tell you. Be a little breaker for me. Yeah. Yeah. I've never heard very very very. And then I learned how to ski and then doing kind of stop skiing. I'm sure then we have a mood to Miami and like start kite surfing and stuff. But yeah although we'll be we'll be going skiing in you know nine days. But so we were just saying is a lot of it was handled on the front end because you you picked the right partner basically. So you didn't have a lot of fights that you had. I think there's like also just a baseline level of commitment where you just like you don't know it picked right but you committed. Yeah. It's like I brought a lot of security to the right. I can't remember if we cannot remember someone else told us this metaphor when we got married but it's like you're you know you get married and it's like you're just locked in prison with this person. And it sounds great. Yeah. But in a good way though it's like you just you have to figure stuff out when you're in there. And if you take this mentality of like I'm in it I'm here and there's no other choice then all the other little stuff falls with like I don't think there are a lot of ways and much done are not the most obvious fits for each other. I mean with the skiing thing like done all of a sudden he was going to marry some ski person professional ski. I'm not and you know like I mean there are a lot of ways of which were really different. But I think you just have this mentality of like I'm in it and I'm going to figure it out and that just brings a lot of simplicity and clarity. And I think a lot of people really really overthink that part. Well let's talk about that because Dylan it feels like you knew pretty early like you were committed pretty early. Like I remember you know not you were mentioning that Dylan was more eager to be committed or be say hey we're like boyfriend and girlfriend before and not you. So talk about like when you knew that not he was going to be your group like not he was the one for you and like what was that process like? I think these are two different you know sort of questions. I'm like the boyfriend girlfriend thing. I think a part of it maybe is a commitment and part of it is also just like slightly it was the cultural thing of like I just have never somebody that has like you know I've either had extremely casual relationships towards like we don't do dinners we don't do anything I've been like like what's your name? I don't even know. Yeah exactly like definitely yeah a decent number of those. Or I have like a committed girlfriend that's it. The idea of this like you know San Francisco archetype of like over like months on end you're like in this state where like you know that the other person's also seeing other people or like the poly others like that is just like not for me. So the boyfriend girlfriend thing I think was more that where I was like if you're going to be doing this yeah like you know I think it was like three weeks in or two weeks in I was like if we want to continue to go on dates this needs to be like a thing because I don't do this like you know taking people to dinner if it's not you know clearly you know sort of committed. Yeah that's different than like the you know sort of the one. I don't think that was ever like a you know sort of like you know sort of one moment you know sort of per se for me I think it is especially in relation to like you know sort of for I feel like the guy it's like the proposal you know sort of moment is the like you know solidification of the you just had one in some ways and for me that felt like there's something where like it popped into my head you just sort of once and then you started to think about it for a little while and then it pops into your head again like a month later and then the next time it's like two weeks later and then like seven's like a week later and then next time it's like every day and then at some point you just you know sort of I think you know get comfortable and that's how at least for me any major decision I feel like I've made I like flip with the idea you know sort of first but then I know that it's like time to make the decision once like you know I've like thought about it and I'm thinking about it basically like every single day um and you workshoped it on clubhouse oh and I workshoped out there's workshoped it on clubhouse yeah there's like 12,000 people that knew that I was going to propose before not eating you um and so they all kept a secret credit to those 12,000 people um but at least for me the first like you know moment of that was actually um very simple just go uh story we got robbed um it's here to go um the cops and do anything I got robbed I think you were you weren't living with me yet at the time um uh cops of course you don't do anything I was just like very you know it's just like it's it took me some time to come to this realization because you like come home you're like a weird like the house is a little messy and you're like oh but like my laptop that was like sitting over there is like missing so I mostly like miss place that anyways at some point I realized I think stole a bunch of my stuff and like one of the things that was very bummed out about it was like I literally had just bought a switch and it was like excited to like plan my switch etc um and I remember not even like two or three days later you know sort of sobbing and like handed me a switch oh and I just remember just like breaking down crying we like thank so much like you know this is like good breaks your like sense of safety your sense of just like you know so there's so many things that like breaks when like somebody's like violated your place and like taking all these things something like like recognizing that and like you know replacing the thing like you know I was very you know sort of frustrated but I was very very nice that's so sweet we'll continue our interview in a moment after a word from our sponsors how deep do you go to seek out an answer to a question maybe you've spent hours clicking the source links on an obscure Wikipedia page or maybe you're even the type of person who checked out the entire shelf on the topic at your library if you're nodding along then check out givwell an organization that researches questions about global health and philanthropy even if a satisfying answer might require years of reviewing studies talking to experts and over 300 footnotes givwell has now spent over 17 years researching charitable organizations and only directs funding to a few of the highest impact opportunities they've found over 125,000 donors have used givwell to donate more than two billion dollars rigorous evidence suggests that these donations will save over 200,000 lives and improve the lives of millions more givwell wants as many donors as possible to make informed decisions about high impact giving you can find all of their research and recommendations on their site for free you can make tax deductible donations to their recommended funds or charities and givwell doesn't take a cut if you've never used givwell to donate you can have your donation matched up to 100 dollars before the end of the year or as long as matching funds last to claim your match go to givwell.org and pick podcast and enter econ 102 with Noah Smith and Eric Torenberg at checkout make sure they know that you heard about givwell from econ 102 with Noah Smith and Eric Torenberg to get your donation matched again that's givwell.org to donate or find out more on the front end was not yet someone you expected to be your girlfriend like what sort of made it obvious to you okay we should date. Well I feel like you know as you know as a you should guidance you're just go you keep track of like the 12 attractive women that you know exist in the city and just keep tabs on these. Yeah keep tabs of like you know what they're doing and you know how things are going anyways we'd like you know sort of met very briefly in like 2012 and she'd like you know been added to that at the time the list was like three and she was like the fourth that I have to listen or time at least grew to like you know sort of 12 of a course of like a decade and then yeah at some point like heard through you know sort of the grapevine that like you know she was you was her single after she was dating somebody for a long time and so for me at least the first you know sort of like do I take this person on a day you know was just you know are they on that list of 12 yeah I don't know if there was like an obvious like moment on like the girlfriend thing I just felt like yeah I don't know you know maybe but that was way after they're like a boyfriend girlfriend thing yeah Nadia what was your early when did you say I love you for the first time Nadia skipping that story well this guy Delian comes in your life was it obvious to you at first no I was definitely not what about it wasn't obvious I mean well it's just it was just so random I mean yeah we had it we're like one of each other's earliest Twitter followers I think you know I vaguely is such a weird name like I remember like suck in my head that he was a person I'd met in San Francisco very early on but not really thought about and I randomly met two of his roommates in the span of a few weeks and so and they'd mentioned their other roommate Delian I was like oh that guy gave me a ride home once like yeah super random um but yeah then he had like reached out and we met up for the first time and which there's always a bit of on whether or not that was a date yeah I didn't say it was a date I said we met up for the first time it was in big and I just heard yeah he was I just didn't know what to make tell him the barata story yeah he ordered this like bread and Delian loves barata we were at um 13 meter factory and really good bread and he ordered like this toast with the barata and he just like hey we were just having like a very like deep but like if you get Delian going he's talking super frenetically and super fast he's like talking really fast well it's like weird stuff that you don't usually talk about when you meet someone and he was just eating this like barata and toast like this and it was like spilling out he was like talking really critically and like and I'm just like this guy's like cute he's really smart but like I don't totally understand what's going on and then he went to like a baritone class afterwards and I was like I may never see that person I'm like I don't really that was there's like a little hurricane that just like zipped in and like zipped out but then we did end up going on actual date after that because I don't know like four days later five days later what you say yes I really like weird guys like weird is interesting right weird is intriguing um and so I was intrigued by the weirdness of when we were doing our first date but it was um we well the date part is maybe not the important well yeah but it's a helpful context you know but then the after I don't think we need okay okay we need all the context fine but something that did endure me doing on this first date we did a you know normal first thing but we went back to his place afterwards um took a cook dinner because we the date place didn't have dinner yes uh yeah our dinner our dinner restaurant plans fell through yeah we ended up just buying groceries and we're like we're just gonna cook dinner at home um and dillian is parking his car in the driveway and it's like one of these San Francisco houses it's like the Victorians yeah we like walk up to the top so I'm saying at the top of steps dillian is parking down below and I'm waiting for him and these three people approach me that's the guy with two children and they're like downing up the stairs and they're like hello I'm so excited to meet you and I was like who are these people it turns out it's dillian's dad and it's two younger siblings um who are yeah we're visiting it for the weekend but I told them I was like you guys need to like hide and go walk a movie or something so I can take this girl on this date but then they got home earlier than expected and yeah happened to perfectly running during the moment where their family on their first date yes and they were all they were all there yes um and yeah but I mean for just it was a very I think what kind of flip for me of okay first like he's weird but he's intriguing then it was like okay we had some fun together and then but then I think seeing how close dillian was with his family was a really endearing thing that you just don't see much of in San Francisco dating especially him and his mom like very soon after that I think the first time that we like started officially dating she came over we're you know doing all Easter thing together he's just like clearly very very grounded in his his family and to me that was a sign of commitment and someone who's just yeah I don't know I I find that I found that just really really nice so I made it do math work she's on her first date I wasn't allowed to eat dinner until I completed these math problems and I got them wrong six grade math counts come on I feel like dillian changed your sort of conception of what you were attracted to or what your type or what would be good for you based on previous people or they you the data or thought you might be attracted to like what did you learn about sort of I think it goes back to the prison thing again of you don't want to be in prison with a nerd but you don't want to use willing to go to prison as another can work maybe a better analogy is you know you people have there are people you can be very close friends with and love but you don't want them to be your roommates right it's just like you don't necessarily want to deal with like that kind of stuff together and I think they're something similar with like the prison thing or whatever but I've definitely dated a lot of people where it's you know we have all this chemistry very specific dimensions that are really nice and fun and it's very engaging but in the end it's like if you're getting married you're having kids you're raising a family you're dealing with a lot of practical stuff that is not always glamorous you need someone who can actually you just deal with that with you and that's a very different way of thinking about relationships and we don't talk about that very often I think we usually just talk about the you know look for someone to share is you see an interest and or really generic traits like smart and funny and someone who'd be like the most fun weekend or something yeah and I think we're just and and then we think that oh if you just have a really fun time with someone and they're smart and funny and they check all the boxes then eventually just kind of morphs into you know a series but like sometimes it doesn't and so I think like having that kind of more top of mind of like you know do I want to be doing all the other stuff that might not look so fun and in a weird and in India and I think finding someone that you genuinely enjoying doing all that stuff with makes it really fun so like I think I don't know I have found parenthood with Dell is like a blast we're in a great time that obviously there are things that are still hard about it but I feel like even the most mundane things or the most boring things people talk about if it's someone that you genuinely enjoy doing this stuff but I mean you just have a really great time so yeah so that is a deliant on the 20 minute VC podcast higher stubbings for some reason ask you what's most important in a partner sex laughter honesty or respect and you chose sex nice now I'm just gonna you chose honesty okay I remember you honestly could have convinced me that I chose sex yeah you you you rank to them okay I went honestly yeah then sex and I think humor was last you respect and humor and what are you ranking what are the three things sex laughter honesty respect and I think I went I went honesty sex respect and maybe after and maybe explain your your rink let's see to me honestly I don't respect those laughs that's what was respect but then I do laughter laughter maybe maybe yeah okay anyways yeah but it was definitely like at least honesty and sex first oh yeah I don't think you like that respect was like third but then you gave you an explanation it made sense yeah I don't really remember I think you were like if I could be honest with them then I can develop the other yeah I think it was like if you don't have honesty that feels like you know sort of base truth where it's just like you need you know you know a common you know sort of ground they're operating from and then sex just feels like it's just so fundamental that it also if you don't have that the others like kind of don't you know sort of matter either and so then it's like in some ways it's not that respect doesn't matter but it's like you can't really have that without the like it's a balance on this you're not overly you're not to earlier point you're not oversharing or yeah yeah that's not like a total yeah that way you talk about every single detail about each other's lives every single day right it's just like but of the things that we communicate into one another we always know that we're saying the truth being real with each other yeah I think honesty is definitely the most important one for just it's not even because I want to say communication but it's not communication again in the sense of tell every tell every single thing you're thinking it's like this healthy balance of communication where some things are said some things are implicitly understood and there you just you're on the right level with each other um and being able to get to convey feeling to someone through body language through intentions and not always having to oververbalize everything is just really good sign yeah how do you think about you guys obviously have shared context shared knowledge you're in the same industry you have you were similar friend groups there's a lot shared but there's also a lot different right like not he is very literary very verbal um tell you and doesn't love to read uh books at the same degree sorry I still love to read just not at the same degree it's hard to read yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah spaceman you know different uh there's definitely some differences there in interest but also um just how you guys sort of process the world think about the world and there are other people the opposites who might be more similar to you but yeah I'm curious how you think about that balance how should other people think about sort of similarities and differences and what what's like the right I mean there's obviously people like I think about like you know what tailon Alex from eight sleep where it's like literally they have the exact same context and they literally work together for eight hours a day so I don't think there's any like universal you just sort of answer here at least for me I felt like I just am so you know sort of you know work is such a top you know sort of priority for me that I felt like in prior relationships where I didn't have some level of like shared context and just like somebody like knew what a series A was going into the relationship I was like this is just I'm such a foreign body and I want to be able to talk this stuff over and so you know no shared context is too difficult for me but then I also felt like you know they're there weren't an infinite number but the handful of people that I like you know sort of dated or you know so I had brief flings with that were like literally another VC or another founder I was like oh my god I like might as well just stay at the office all day it's just like then we're just like the exact same thing is that just feels wrong too so it's not that I don't think it was like explicitly searching for it when you know I was like you know looking for a partner or anything like that but once in it I was like oh my god this is like the perfect amount of context you sort of overlap to have or like you know I feel like I'm learning a lot about things from her she's learning about things from me but also we like have this like shared network and understanding of you know technology Silicon Valley etc and so you know we're not like trying to explain the basics to one another yeah yeah I share that sentiment I think from my and I also just didn't realize how wonderful it would be to date someone that's very grounding yeah um I spend a lot of time in my head all day and a lot of time it was very abstract topics and I think if I were to spend my life with someone else who's similar for me a personally at least I think we would just sort of end up being in our own worlds forever and yeah we have this early thing of the you were like the supersoaker is that like a oh yeah it's an xcd comic where it's like uh it's I think it's called like existential or something but it's like oh she's like she's going into an existential crisis again like quick get the supersoaker it's like you pop him up spray him with the supersoaker like bring him back to reality that's very much that our relationship yeah yeah I remember especially like early on she was still working on her first first book um and you know that's even like you know sometimes when you're in your research mode you're at least like still talking to people on those days like she's like literally like you know would go days out of time without like talking to anybody and just like you know literally writing all day and so I would come home and should like look at me and literally just be like non-verbal like just like forget how to speak and I'd be like do you remember English lady okay it wasn't that pretty bad and so there's definitely some amount of the you know you gotta come back into the you know sort of real world and then for me I think I feel like a part of what I like is um you know I come from like a family of academics and then I aspire to I think you know I also really like you know sort of writing I really like reading I feel like I'm in this you know phase in my life where I don't get to do that as much but it's not something that like I never want to go back to or something like I definitely would like to return to a life that involves more reading and more writing and more philosophizing relative to like today feels very I need to like you know right turn the crank um and so I feel like not everyone reminds me how beautiful that you know sort of world is and I get to somewhat either get to tap into it you know sort of uh with like seriously yeah yeah yeah I'll say I mean yeah definitely the basic gift a lot of friends who are looking for partners is it's you're not I just I don't think if I had made a list of criteria of this is what I think I want and you're often it's often very surprising who you end up with but that those are I think some of the best best relationships. So when when people in your friend groups or people you know when you can see that they pick the wrong partner like why does that usually happen or like what is the sort of mistake that you see people make or not fully appreciate when he's it they picks on to like them come back to this like respect and communication thing and commitment and commitment like it's like somebody's like three years in and it's not obvious like one of or both people are not like fully committed to one of them like what the fuck are you doing like why are you still in this thing we're clearly three years in there's like wavering on one side or on both sides it's like it's just like he's not the secure like how long did it take for you to know was it like six months three on like they're like wavering yeah um yeah I'm not um let's see was there like an immediate moment I still kind of go back to like we moved in together yeah yeah six months but I could also see a world where like you know if like we lived in a city where like housing cost for like three X lower like there was definitely a component of it that was like it was like annoying ubering back and forth etc but if we lived in like Kansas City who know right maybe like it would have been you know a little bit later no I feel like it's like like the proposal things always like the easiest thing to like you know it's your point it's obviously like by then yes and then obviously no when we like literally went on our first date right yeah the transition I don't think it's like a binary point a year and a half on to say but yeah what separated Dellian for for you Nadia based on other people you've done in the past was just the sort of level of commitment right yeah commitment and and then communication yeah and seriousness goes a long way I think yeah and the communication we did not over communication or you mean the I know I need a better term for this but yeah just being being direct like I never worry that Dellian is keeping a thought in his head that he's not telling oh yeah I was like frustrated by things early on in the relationship but I would just tell her like this can't happen like I don't like I don't want to date somebody that does this so like if this is a thing you want to do yeah go for it but like it's not going to be like with me yeah I realize there's actually just such a huge relief to be like including like the boyfriend girlfriend thing I was like I get you're coming from this San Francisco world where like things are vague that is not what I do and so if you want this thing to continue it it like has to be concrete and like you know I think I've lived basically like set a deadline effectively where I was like I think it was actually like the Easter like brunch with my mom whereas like maybe three or four weeks in a dating and I was like you can come to the brunch but like only if I'm presenting he's my girlfriend otherwise you're not coming to the brunch obviously right yeah it is interesting so it's sometimes in a relationship some there's one person who's like has more thoughts about the relationship or more concerns and maybe they just need to calibrate so that it's not like you know one person so is that kind of what happens here like if Dellian has a thought he shares it but you tend to have more thoughts on this kind of thing so you're like more discerning as to what you share I think I share I think yeah I don't feel like I keep things in now but I think I learned I really didn't learn a lot from being with Dellian in that like he was so candid and so direct then it felt like it gave me the space to well if he's a super direct then I could be super direct too yeah and it was just such a relief because we never I just feel like we're never harboring I never ever worry that oh he's just sitting there being resentful about something it's like if he's mad about something I'll he'll know and vice versa so it's just that discernment when something is truly worth bringing up basically yeah yeah it's like pick you because I think it's again if you're trying to to reach this if the bar is that you're like day today should just be awesome with a person all the time and it's like okay do you really awesome but it doesn't have to be perfect and I think too many people are like trying to overanalyze and dig into like it's not that naughty and I's like you know interactions on a day by day basis are like perfectly seamless all the time it's like yeah we're like under slept or stressed out or we like just came off a six hour flight or like you know things are going it's like yeah it's not always perfect like she'll snap at me or all you know you know get mad or like you know there's things that happen but it's like it's not like we go in like perfectly overanalyze oh like why did that happen how do we prevent this from having the future it's like no but like you also want to make sure that like at the end of the day you felt like it was an awesome experience right even if there's like minor perturbations all throughout so don't like sit there like overanalyze perturbation I feel like that's also something that I've like had to I think it's been a lot easier to learn being married to somebody for like such an extended period of time where there are times early on where I'd be like oh shit like you know naughty clearly it was like super mad about this thing etc and like I need to think about this because I also like we have these girlfriends and they would just go that would like yeah want things to be perfect and overanalyze etc and we would like have these like six hour long discussions about like a thing that I did like two Sundays prior yeah and I felt like that wasn't the case with naughty because then like it would just be like yeah like she was kind of in a bad mood that day and I said some stupid things and we don't need to like go back and like think about that nonstop it's like you know like go and move on yeah yeah just trying to get better at stuff and so you're the way you guys bounce back when you snap or so it's just like sorry and just like move on basically like short memories like well acknowledge it sometimes like later in the day if it's like we're calling just like oh man I can't believe like yeah I'd be able to laugh at yourself a little bit and also yeah sometimes recognize their times when one of us might snap at the other but it's you know look at the context of maybe this person's tired of his stress or whatever and it's like really starting to get to know the other person where you're understanding them in this very detailed way so that it doesn't just feel like oh you got mad at me and now I'm gonna call the getting mad at me police and issue you a violation it's like he's a human being and sometimes he gets tired and vice-person yeah just be able to like get past that yeah often I've definitely succumb to this too but there's this sort of desire to be like how can this never happen again we need to have like a system like yeah I think it's like totally unrealistic it's like yeah of course it's just like he did like in the grand scheme with the trade of the world right do you still feel awesome about this relationship it's not to say that like it's gonna have like zero blemishes yeah it's not to say that you wouldn't accept it happening all the time or something but within reason yeah and so what do you guys fight about or would you maybe I wonder if parenting has brought up new new challenges I think it's always very like I don't think there's like any like I think if there was like one consistent theme over and over and over again I feel like that would you know sort of make it you know sort of not work as much um I mean you know sort of I think two of the more you know sort of recent ones the first one I know you're gonna be comfortable with the second one maybe you know can cut out or whatever but the first one um it's just like travel schedule and bouncing child care stuff like I think you know that especially this fall like you know sort of got to a place that just like clearly didn't you know sort of feel sustainable so I was one of the more you know sort of recent ones and obviously you know doing some life adjustments to you know sort of change that so we can say I just I think parenting just brings up a lot of really boring, treacherous, logistic stuff you have to deal with now like I ever feeling this moment of panic when we had a kid and then realizing oh my gosh like my schedule is now perfectly tied to this other like to delian schedule where one of us needs to be taken care you know so in the evenings it's it's not I think we both we we had a pretty independent relationship and we still do in a lot of ways where it's not like we're spending every evening side-by-side doing things together whatever we often do separate from our funds is so funny that we'll both order our own delivery you know sort of food from separate places and then have dinner completely separately and there's no discussion like yeah people often I think don't know this mother but like I don't know yeah you like your downtime you like your you're you're you spent a lot time with people but you're also enjoying just like yeah well it's down a little bit at home and I'm I'm always down to be alone so um so yeah I think we we definitely have our own space in our own independent schedule has been when you have a kid it's not like oh I'm gonna go off and do this thing this weekend and I'll see you later it's well if I'm leaving then someone else needs to be here and that was scary at first of just now we have to coordinate everything um I don't know if I would call it a fight or anything I'd just say like it just the travel one was more of the yes I'm gonna call it a fight though it's just more like functionally it's really hard like there's let's yeah you were mad at me and how do you deal with sort of divide and conquer equality I remember you told me something along lines like you had to accept that not everything's gonna be equal all the time like yeah it's not gonna be like the cleanest or you know first in the world there's just a dirty dirty man over here or do the most housework dirty old grandpa well there are some of the things that were just I can't wait for that some things that oh just letting go of things um I mean yeah one thing when we moved in together was dying is very messy um incredibly messy adorable messy but like very messy um and I'm not a clean freak but I'm definitely tidy um I'm not I'm not like uh you know whatever I'm definitely yeah but you know I'm just a normal person you've got standards yeah I have standards um that's the kind of thing where you have to decide you know am I going to be miserable if I if I like this person I want to live with them it's either it has to be a complete deal breaker we're not gonna we can't date anymore because we can't live together or I'm gonna be running around picking up after him all the time that would be very annoying or just you know you sort of accept on both side there's some things where I know is to like pick up after himself and some things were like sometimes the mess sits out there and if I had my way I would love to pick it up and clean it but it's people have different personalities and you know they just decide it just doesn't they really just doesn't matter that much in the end yeah just harmonious about it you know um your harmonious head I'm scared yes yes yeah how do you guys deal with that I'm just kidding hard to avoid it I'm just kidding um I think parenting injuries is a lot of logistics and it's very easy to then just have your life be logistics and coordinating and that also takes the joy out of relationship really fast and I think being cognizant of I I try to at least be aware of you know let's make sure we're not constantly talking about the baby logistics and there are other things that we can you know really being active and looking for those moments of joy and and other ways to connect because I think that that can be a a place where it starts to really impact someone's relationship where suddenly you get a year in or something you realize all we ever do is talk logistics and we never do anything right joyful for ourselves the telling you've talked about how young men should have kids yeah more sooner than I think um same more about that yeah but meaning to I was actually meaning to you to sort of write something um now the way you know so it sounds a year old not that I have like some super strong perspective on like parent or yet given that obviously you know sort of have a long path ahead of me but I've been thinking about it in relation to seeing other people who have had kids at you know sort of different you know such stages of life and I think one thing that I've really appreciated over the past year is it's obviously been the most joyful year for me as like a father and getting to experience this like wonderful human being that I hope I get to you know sort of you know have my life for you know as long as I live and um and at the same time it was also a year there was like amongst them most stressful and biggest inflection points for me you know sort of professionally you know when my son was born the Varta you know the office that we're currently in the Varta capsule was you know sort of still in space when he was you know whatever two and a half months old was when we were going through our you know sort of first reentry there was so much it was like so important for me you know sort of professionally over the past year but I really appreciated was that I felt like I was like my career is growing at the same time that he is growing into it kind of feels like it's in tandem where you know I think I do my best to really prioritize spending time with him I try to come home for dinner every you know single night um I try to you spend whenever we're I'm in the same city as him and without traveling spend as much time as I you know sort of possibly can at the same time I also you know have two jobs that are you know sort of you know highly ambitious and um I also spend a lot of time you know sort of working on those and I feel like being in this world where you know everything ultimately you know comes as a trade off feels in some ways like a you know sort of healthy you know sort of bounce versus I feel like when I see people and this isn't you know sort of everyone but when I see people think about only having kids once they're you know sort of past the peak of their career you get in this weird dynamic where like the kid is growing but your career is sort of like not falling per se but like you're you're you're no longer in this like super intense you know sort of grind mode and then I I feel like I see them get into this like sort of guilt words like well now you're wealthy enough that you can just go home at like two p.m. and spend the next you know sort of five hours with him when they're like two years old and I don't think that has like you know sort of your value for the kid or anything beginning to this weird state where it just feels like things are sort of decoupled from one another we're like the you know sort of kids life stages and your life stages no longer really you know sort of seemed online and so I feel like this is the thing that people get really wrong where they really think about oh like you know I don't want to have kids until I'm older when like I can just use like you know sort of wealth et cetera to make it a lot easier and I can spend more time with them and I'm like no part of the joy of being like a you know sort of father is that you get to grow at the same time as your kid is you know sort of growing so you can't have someone to like parallel you know sort of experiences and you get too decoupled from that I think you know you just don't have that same connection with your kid and then I think there's there's a part of it that is also you know um people under appreciate how important also like the grandparent experience is and for each year that you delay you know basically having a kid you know if your kid has the same has kids at the same age as you you're telling grandparents by like two years so you know if you're you know thirty when you have your your first kid hopefully your you know sort of grandparents you know when you're sixty you wait till 35 70 if you wait till 40 80 at some point you're like really limiting the amount of like healthy years you have with your you know sort of grandparents with your grandkids um one thing that I love about you know sort of our son is he currently has multiple great grandparents alive that like get to interact with him and I've reached you know sort of feeling great grandparents great grandparents multiple them um he also obviously has a multitude of grandparents that are all quite young energetic healthy et cetera and a part of that is because my parents had kids when they were young I had kids again relatively you know sort of young quote unquote you know thirty you know obviously in certain cultures as young certain cultures is old and so I think there's a part of it that is that where it's like man you're really depriving both your parents from the grandparent experience with your kids but then also you're depriving your future self from the grandparent experience you know by you know sort of waiting to late and so there's all these things that I feel like society has gotten perverted in particular over the past you know sort of decade and especially in like right wing red pill manosphere and rotate you know sort of type you know sort of culture that I just think really does you describe for what the purpose of life is and some of the most joyous aspects you just have a life that you completely end up missing out on right well yeah so I think for some people they're cautious because they saw their parents get divorced or you know we not have the right part my parents got divorced you know to mean where it's like yeah it's like okay if that's like the worst case outcome they still have like you know eighteen years of marriage together three kids like they still have a really strong you know sort of familial bond where it's like look do my parents love each other you know anymore can even like really tolerate each other not really that much but like we'll still get together as a full family and like yeah they're like next to each other at the dinner table but like we still get to have like the full family together and so it means like that's the downside case of like if you choose the you know sort of wrong partner it's like it's a pretty damn good upside case we're all tough to like you know you you don't even get to be alive for your grandkids you don't even like you know if I did you know sort of choose between those two extremes so yeah I do think yeah there's a part of me that like I felt like I grew up with this like you know sort of expectation that yeah kids were an incredibly important part of you know sort of growing up and being an adult it wasn't that you like became a super old adult and then had kids it was like a part of becoming an adult was you know sort of having the kids and so if I like I was in this state where like I kind of you know sort of dated people from like 16 to 21 or so and then at some point I was like I don't want to keep doing that where I'm like experimenting wherever the next person is that like I'm going to like seriously you know sort of date for an extended period of time I want this to be the person like I actually you know to have kids with and so I like raise the bar to the level where I was like yeah there's people that I enjoy you know having short flings with but I always made it very clear with them was like you are not you know at the level or what what I want for somebody that I'm hearing so this is never going to become a sort of thing especially because I care a lot about that like you know sort of you know if you're gonna take somebody on dates they should be you know sort of your girlfriend at the same time you also think that we shouldn't or you both think that we shouldn't pressure or add to the pressure that women have to have kids early right yeah I mean I just think there's a very wide gap between what we're talking about when we're saying prioritize kids um you know I feel like the cars here in turns into should you have kids when you're 22 versus 42 and it's like there's a huge range in between right and I think like yeah I mean my my side of is it having kids I'm not going to lie like it really does change the enough free time that you have and a lot of that work statistically historically just actually it falls on women for many many reasons some of them are just physical reasons pregnancy is a thing that you know the woman is doing but also a lot of childcare falls on women and it really changes your life I don't have the same amount of free time I used to I've had to make some pretty tough trade-offs this past year because I just don't have I don't have the the headspace that I used to so there are sacrifices involved and I think yeah I just I think for the women's side like it does make sense to spend a little bit time figuring out what you like living life I think women are also just maybe not all women but for me like I was not ready to have kids when I was let's even say like 25 and stuff maybe some women are that's great for them for me like I had a lot of just soul-searching finding myself to do I think a lot of women are like just more emotionally uh mature I was going to see I'm trying to find the right freezer bits you know I think just a lot more emotionally expressive and that comes in good and bad ways right like we know that like teenage girls for example are much more susceptible to social media then then boys are and I think part of it is you're just like you know you're a lot more just in your head and in tunic their motions and sometimes that means you're hyper aware of things that you're you aren't always and so for me at least I felt like I needed some time to just like figure out who I am um and and then I fell ready and now now that I'm having kids it's like I have zero regrets for I feel like I had a really really full life before before my kids and now I can shift my priorities a little bit in focus but yeah I think like we can't ignore the fact that that is true and it's and I think for millennial women like me we were all kind of raised being told again you know do it all and as soon as I had kids I realized that's I mean I already kind of suspected it before but you really really feel it it's just you know I don't have evenings and weekends anymore to work so yeah it's there there are trade-offs I think the trade-offs are all super super worth it um it's also been the best best year of my life have you have you some people younger women get scared that having a kid kind of rewires their brain and thus don't care less about their career and more about their kid and I'm sure there's some excitement that comes with that but they're also like really excited about their career they spend their whole you know 20s doing it is that I don't know if it's your favorite one but yeah it's I think it's been a mix I think there's some women I know who didn't they kind of didn't love their crews anyway and so this gave themselves a focus on I also know a lot of women myself include where it's like I love my kid I don't want to spend 24/7 on childcare I just don't um and and then it just becomes this really painful trade-off of how do you yeah how do you figure out how to balance both those things but yeah I think like we have to at least just start being realistic about what some of those those trade-offs are and we can't just pretend that they they don't exist because yeah then you end up in a very rude awakening totally um so men should have kids young women should wait so it sounds like men should date older women they're very older women have kids with them that's a great way to take away is there anything we haven't yet discussed or things that come to mind about either your relationship specifically or things you advise your friends or or people whether they're at similar stages or sort of you know well before about either a partner selection or making relationships great or thinking about kids and parenting. I'm curious why why did you want to do this whole podcast series and what are you hoping to get out of it by talking to all these couples? Well when I just thought it would be fun on its own um two I think it's just uh under explored um I haven't seen a lot of couples kind of be open about things that they um sort of struggle with um so I think partner selection is still like we don't really have a great way of thinking about that um and I think people learn from like case studies and I think there aren't tons um so I think my own curiosity and I hope that other people see examples that they can aspire to or um or learn from in some way. One thing you mentioned uh is like this idea that no person can satisfy like every part of it can be like the best friend on every single dimension and one thing you mentioned idea is like because you're different certain ways it also like reminds you it's also important to have friends who do have you know the same interest in certain things or I can how do you think about just like a full life you know what you think about like what your partner satisfied what you can expect from your partner relative to what you need to satisfy yourself or via other means. Yeah it's it has changed I think since having a kid where our inner or I don't know what the term is our our relationship world has expanded a lot um our household is its own world in itself now uh in a way that I think it wasn't before kids there's so many things that are going on in our household their little victories were celebrating little issues that come up whatever that are centered more around us as a family unit um we haven't had a second kid yet but I have heard from people who have two kids where it's like oh now we really feel like a family like we are our own unit of thing so I think that also changes how I think about yeah sort of like where the center of my attention is these days but I do think yeah friends are friends are every time I was recently just like I don't know the long time friendships you have you you start to really really they start to really deepen and ground you on hold you um because there are people I think people who have known you for a really really long time um just help keep the time you help keep the time for each other um and that becomes really important um yeah having people to talk about things you find interesting that are outside of relationship are is important but I think yeah I think I just I think less about it right now just because I feel more in like my domestic world has just expanded a lot right now um I'm sure that will change over time though yeah it's the goal of life yeah I feel like you know like having that domestic world I don't know maybe maybe it's like taking to the extreme version it's like the epitome of like a family life being its whole own story is like succession you know what I mean where it's like like they're obviously crazy parts of that you know sort of family and things that are super dark etc but there's a part of it's like look at like the family you know they mean like they are constantly with each other thinking about each other spending time together etc that to me is like you know sort of what you know life is all about and I feel like in some ways you know both of us because we come from this immigrant families just don't have that type of you know sort of you know you know background I think my my family is then DC jump of attempting to you know sort of create that but again my nuclear family is here in the United States it's like you know five of us basically six of us you know seven of us it's still you know sort of relatively small but I feel like the thing that I always like you to sort of dream about and the thing that is like in some ways my like top priority of life is like I want there one day to be the like aspro have Thanksgiving and there's like 30 there's like 40 and like that is actually like the main thing that I think about you know sort of in life and so I love the fact that like the main thing that I think about is like these like you know sort of domestic whatever you know sort of story that is like its own you know sort of being and it's like that's the thing that is like the institution that you're you're sort of building the like you know sort of legacy you know in some ways that it's way way more important than any of the like the the purpose of building the companies and the things that you're doing is I honestly believe like you know not not to get overly like you know sort of nepotistical or back to like you know a love of what is not oligarchy but what's the word for like dynasty like rich people in England the aristocratic now to get too back into like a aristocracy but I actually think this is something where we've somewhat lost your way and I saw great you know sort of thread on this today where like as society has shifted from this like valuation of people based off the like productivity of their assets where it's like how much can the farm generate to instead the like value of the underlying asset the default is the only way to realize that is you have to like sell off a part of it and so you have you know they like you know sort of track this in England where if you look at the families that in like the early 1900s once like land head value and was more tradable started to actually trade parts of it those like dynasties those families completely went away the ones that stayed very conservative and hold held on to like everything that they had those families are still strong families and so I think it's something that's like lacking in today's culture is like this thinking of like the institutions that you're establishing that are meant to you know sort of last for the next year sort of 100 years or 30 years it's like the you know tutor family or the you know xyz family it's like those the things that we should be like thinking about building that I think kind of lasting impact and this is part of this that for me is also really as sort of related to you know so exploration I think the only you know sort of reason we're able to have this type of very short-term thinking capitalistic culture versus long-term thinking is because we are all on this planet the moment that you start to get into like we are actually starting to explore the solar system etc all that stuff totally breaks down like you need to have extreme long-term commitment long-term thinking etc the moment you're trying to like establish something like a base in the moon you immediately are reverting back to like you know 1500s English aristocracy in order of that to have any modicum of success and so um I was with you it's something you know that's your little touch on it but um but yeah I was I was I was sitting here trying to find like a nice way of saying this and you just said it so much more eloquently than or directly than than I think what I was trying to get out which is I think like something it's like racing a family is fun building a domestic world is fun and building an aristocracy whatever you want to call it make aristocracy it's it's it's it's sometimes I hear people talk about um yeah I don't know like raising fans it's it's so drudgerous and it's and even I think before before I had kids and then I you know I would have friends who had kids and they was sort of like disappear a little bit and I was like oh you know they're just they left me they're not you know that we're not we're not really friends anymore they're just like lost their own little world or whatever and now now I'm like they're busy doing this really important thing that's actually just it's genuinely really like for me most nights I like I am just thrilled to come home to my kid and spend time with my kid like that's what I want to be doing more than anything else um and and yeah I don't know it doesn't have to feel like a sacrifice there there are there are a lot of things that change um but yeah it also just reminds you that the importance of like the long-term friends where it's like the moment that a trade-off becomes like I'm either with my kid or with this person all of a sudden the bar elevates so like well why would I want to be with anybody other than somebody that is basically the equivalent of like you know sort of family member and so in some ways like the circle tightens but then it felt like it like re-elevated people that were like always family but as we'd be spending time with a broader set of people and then when you near it you're like actually these are the only relationships that matter why am I spending time with literally you know so anybody else out of like a professional capacity it does seem uh not like you've done a good job of like before having a kid you sort of identity of like writer you know researcher um and post having a kid you're a mother but you haven't like entirely lost sort of the previous identity and you also haven't like but you've also you've you've just added mother it feels like you have had a pretty good balance is that fair to say um I'm glad it seems the way yeah I think I think there are a lot of trade-offs um and yeah I don't really know how to articulate it in a way that doesn't sound depressing or scary to someone but I think for coming a mother is it process of lose like death of self or losing yourself in a way that things change for fathers but I don't think it's the same as with mothers um I'm still trying to figure out what that all means but there's definitely like a death of self that had to happen right but it's also you're when you're old it's different than like when the kid is like five or so yeah right I mean the long term like everything yeah they're just phases of life there's just phases of life I think that's where I kind of find peace with it is it's not that one is better or worse than the other um but and they're I think I mean something we talk about sometimes too with with work work and versus child care balances I think it would be nice if there are more support for people to sort of not be at a hundred percent or zero where it's you know can I be at a hundred percent all time the way it was before no frankly no um that doesn't mean I'm at zero I mean so you can be at like sixty percent or eighty percent or whatever and um I think finding ways to sort of it doesn't have to be this oh no life is so busy now at home that I simply cannot do anything it's like no I will do things but I have to do things at with a different set of constraints and different pace so yeah you don't lose everything you just right suffers adapts and changes yeah and one thing about you guys it seems like you married you said earlier you don't want to have kids when you're like past your peak or whatever you guys it married sort of on the come-up like you hadn't even started the the company yet but it means that you you have to be comfortable not just who the person is when you first start dating but who they they evolve into and who they grow into and you've seems like you've you've both picked up sort of you know your your lifestyle drastically changed when you got into you know when you started varda you know you've developed some new interests like John says the example not that you've I'm not applying you're you know a super uh you know midget yeah woo you know full-time meditator it's always very funny to have a wife that's like super into John says like the opposite of woo woo yeah and so yeah it's very funny juxtaposition um but uh you know that no matter in what ways in which you change and grow that you'll sort of grow together and have each other sport hand that goes back again to the commitment thing yeah yeah I don't know you're still locked in prison together yeah um me there's a part of me it's like the shape of the prison is still the same nothing's changed yeah make it sound so romantic it's quite nice and you yeah well maybe lastly um and you just give this to any of you want to but um maybe lastly what what with you guys are both fairly well-known what do you think people don't fully appreciate or misinterpret or not fully get uh about the other her written communication is far far better than her verbal true if you expect to encounter the same person when you're in person with her that you read is not the case I mean it's also true for you and different in a very different way um yeah I mean my my go-to is always that don't it's a softy and people don't realize yeah they son is that you told me once that someone brought you to a sad was like I'm so sorry or something like if you people just say weird things don't happen many many times yeah like is everything okay it's changed in intervention yeah no yeah he's you tame the beast now I'm just kidding Diane's a very loyal friend and husband and uh and yeah just they're really he's he's actually does he cry is he's softy he's much more a lover he cries at space movies oh sure he cries space but yeah he's much more of a lover than a fighter he cries of beauty oh that's true I only fight for the love and most of the times that I'm like posting something it's like angry on twitter I'm just giggling yeah they're like look not my uh look how viral this thing went she always goes oh no forever life yeah what did you do now I only fight for the love I mean maybe maybe we should wrap on maybe we should wrap on that I mean it is um it's amazing to see what you guys have built together over the years uh marriage great again yeah thank you for for coming on and sharing your learnings with us thanks Eric thanks for having us upstream with Eric Tornberg is a show from Turpentine the podcast network behind moment of zen and cognitive revolution if you like the episode please leave a review in the Apple store