E052: Connor Rolain: Marketing Tactics, Product Expansion, Creative Operations, Growth Team & More

What's up everybody, welcome to the operators podcast episode 52. We have Connor headed Rosatex Glad Connor. What's up, man? Hey guys, thanks for having me today. I appreciate you letting me join the operators pod. We're gonna talk some some tactics today on Product expansion and acquisition funnels creative operations team building if you like this stuff come check us out over at the marketing operators It is a dense episode If you if you feel like watching it at half speed. I get it dude. It's a professional lesson on marketing Jason couldn't hang he's like this is way above my pay grade So if you like what Connor has to say he has his own podcast with Connor from Ridge Cody from Joseph and dude You've already heard them on the episode. Matt anything you want to add. No, man. Let's get into it So is anybody who listens to the show knows having an ERP solution is an absolute must as you grow There's just no other way to stay organized what you may not know about having an ERP and I've personally experienced is that over 50% of ERP implementations fail I cannot overstate how much money has been spent as set on fire and spent Trying to set up an ERP only to lead into frustration. So that's why it's so important that you make the right choice for your business when you're thinking about Implementing an ERP and why it fulfills one of the sponsors of the podcast when it comes to running an e-com business fulfill is a fantastic solution that was designed for businesses that are primarily digital We personally have gone through I've gone through I guess three ERP implementations in my career and I've seen how doing it the right way is a big part of success But the other big part of success is picking a partner whose tool is really built for your company and what your company does So if you're a listener of this podcast and you have an e-commerce focused business It fulfills an excellent option to be checking out for your ERP solution That's right the average age of this show is like 67 if it wasn't for Sean Sean's work at routine is a 67 year olds work at routine so it balances out. It's true. You're giving me a Liptical - no, I'm actually no you know what Sean I totally respect the elliptical. I'm I'm piloting on Jason's always a Jason's not here So I feel like I've got a kind of slide into that role It doesn't help that Sean texts photos of himself on Let the call this is the thing I love about Sean if you make fun of something with Sean He he'll just triple down all he does not care which is my favorite. I so endearing Sean Do you deliberately do that or is this just like the way your brain works? You know, I I just don't care what everybody thinks about me. So I'm like yeah, the ellipticals great It's so much better than other forms exercise You know Connor does like back flips when he's snowboards man. We need to we need a video of trying to on the pod I can send a video I haven't done it on snow. I only do it into the blob if they got one of those blob things there You can pretty much do anything because it's like it's baked in security You're not gonna hurt yourself and we got a few of the indoor facilities in Denver I've been I've been checking them out. We'll see if I can land one in the next couple years. I'll send that video Every time I see one of those videos. I'm like What was the first time that somebody was like I'm gonna do it? I've never flipped over backwards But this is the time I'm gonna do it for the first time like I just I can't imagine Being like this is a good idea It's cuz it's not it's it's a terrible idea, but like ski media is very much like food media It's just it's getting so much traction. It just continues to grow and grow and grow like like every video the next person is trying to do better and better Yes, ski media is crazy ski Instagram is wild We were talking about this with the guy who did free solo We were like how many people ended up dying climbing because that movie came out it has to be a ton right like That movie gets all this traction and everybody's like I can free solo No, you can't that's a problem. They make it look too easy dude I just want to point out you guys make for ellipticals all you want but the two sports you can play drunk golf and snowboarding Okay, so the one thing you can't do drunk. Yeah elliptical I mean you could I don't know that it would be fine There's no way there's no way you could no there's like that's a geospatial problem Sean you're right You guys want to talk talk some marketing stuff Connor do you want to? We want to start man you want to introduce yourself People know who you are yeah Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'm Connor Rolane. I'm the how to growth at hex clad so Yeah, basically just overseeing our performance marketing channels and really any any sort of cross channel campaign who is overall goal is to drive revenue on our Shopify store Hey, Connor when did you join hex clad maybe give us a little bit of context because obviously hex clad's been a rocket ship And you've been there for a lot of that journey leading up growth Give us kind of a snapshot of when you came in and what's happened while you've been there Yeah, so I was working at an agency. That's where they are I cut my teeth in e-commerce and hex clad Man, this must have been like Q4 of 2021 they were working with kind of a Like a full funnel type agency like they were producing content they were buying the Facebook ads They were doing email and they were doing an okay job, but you know as as it usually goes with these kind of like Full funnel agencies. They do a lot but not always you know at the upper level of what it could be being done at so I think Sean actually maybe was the one that Initially connected hex clad to the agency that I was working at at the time and hex clad was shopping around for an own media agency. So Yeah, we really hey we do we do paid social to creative analytics landers all that like can we at least audit your your ad accounts So yeah, we ended up auditing their own media accounts their paid media ounce in the back end of 2021 Got their business in both so then I worked on hex clad through that agency for about a year in 22 and then I left the agency to go you know like a lot of folks working at agencies do go start their own little Groves shop just kind of doing fractional Growth work for a handful of brands, but less than I was doing at the agency and then into that Jason had reached out because you know They were interested in building out an internal team. So Yeah, I want to do it, but I can't it was this is like halfway through 2022 I'm like I can't really leave right now and and kind of leave a lot of these brands stranded for Q4 So I just worked with the brand fraction a little bit and then starting in 2023 I I came in full time So been your full time for about five quarters now and in working on the brand for almost two and a half years Connor you and I have a very similar background So I was an agency guy I started an agency and then you know obviously we merged with Rage and came in house so I did it at probably six or five years before you ended up making your merger What's the biggest challenge or change from working with multiple brands for having to like perform deeper with one brand like what's the biggest obstacle you ever came in that? I I think agencies are great to cut your teeth. I don't think there's a better way to get a bunch of reps and get exposure to a ton of brands like you learn what works you World learn what doesn't work You know, I can't tell you like as many success stories I had at the agency I probably had as many brands that I worked on where we pulled all sorts of levers and couldn't like Yeah, we improved efficiency we improved revenue But ultimately we never got the brand to where they needed to be to be a profitable company So I think that's incredible And I would recommend any person that's coming out of school or or not just is making a career change I want to get into e-commerce go learn to be a tactician like that is the best way to become super valuable for a brand If you know how to pull levers and you understand how those levers drive results I don't think there's a better way to learn e-commerce So super grateful for that experience, but I started getting to a point where that learning curve started to kind of flatten out where I was you know working on five or six brands And just naturally when I'm when I like learned something or there's a problem I want to kind of dig into it and figure out how to solve it and learn about it And you can't really do that when you're working on five or six brands at a given time and you know at the time I was doing paid social ad buying writing creative briefs doing a lot of analytics and data polls and it's just a lot of work And you just naturally can't go as deep as you wanted to And actually Matt you tweeted something Around the time of my transition that actually I still think about today you tweeted Cut a hole one and tried in a mile deep and I was kind of at this point in my career where I really wanted to work on a single brand It just dig into all the problems that I was coming across regularly for all these brands So for me that was the biggest thing. I'm like I need to learn more and like go deeper and I just can't do that if I'm not working on a single brand. So Yeah, I mean that was honestly that was the easy that was the easy thing coming into Hexclack is all the sudden I was working on one brand instead of six and I was able to go deep on all these things that I was you know just genuinely curious about so For me that agency to In house has just allowed me to deepen my skillset That I but but I would have not have been able to build that foundation with out having my agency experience Connor would you So the depth thing is interesting because I think I'm typically of the school of thought that one of the benefits to working with an agency is that they do have a lot of breath So they see a lot of accounts Right and like most brand operators. We only see what's right straight in front of our face. What you're saying as the tactician is sort of like the opposite of that, which is like there's also a lot that you can do if you go deep. Do you think that the, do you think that agencies value in having breadth is going away now that more and more operators are being connected? And it's so like, you know, like there's these, there's just communities now that didn't exist five years ago, right? There's like hundreds of media buyers from operators that like we could all be in chat groups. And like five years ago, there just wasn't anything. Is that changing in your mind? Like having been on both sides of the aisle recently? - I think so. Yeah. I've, we've been actually thinking about this internally a lot lately is like, how do we, how do we get our team access to all these other brands and insights into what isn't working? And like you said, now there are Slack groups, like the operators group and the newly formed marketing operators group and like Foxwell has all these, there's tons of these communities, right? (laughing) And I do think you can get that insight just from connecting with other marketers. However, I will say there is a, like what I can learn by meeting with the director of growth at Momofuko, who is a really smart guy and him and I meet every month or every other month and we talk shop about what's working, what's not working, which is great and I get insights and I get ideas from that. But that's not the same as me being inside of Momofuko's ad account and inside of their clavio account. So I will say I think it's getting better or it's getting to a point where you can like get some of those insights from not being at an agency, but I don't think it's all the way to the point of the exposure you get from being at the agency. 'Cause even the accounts I wasn't running at the agency, like I had access to 50 or 60 Shopify accounts and needed a given time, even if I wasn't the one actually pulling the lever. So that access is just no slot group or conversation's gonna give you that level of access. So I don't think you can totally replicate it, but I think there's, it's moving in that direction at least. I don't know if it'll ever get there though. - You mentioned your team, Connor. Do you wanna maybe maybe we start there like, who's on your team now? Like who are the, who are all the role, what are the seats, what do they do? Even if you've got like you think in order that you would build out a growth team, I'd be really curious just to see what you think there or sorry, but before we move on to the agencies, ABC always be selling. Connor's here because he is the third chair of the Marketing Operators podcast. So there's already two episodes up. We're having all of them on here. My Connor, Cody from "Jaws Reviewed" and then "Hex Glad" Connor. So before we move off of the agency, you said something really interesting that you had more failures at the agency than wins. I think we should unpack it because brand owners are so frustrated and every brand has a story of an agency fucking them over or all that agency doesn't work that agency is scam. Even if the agency is a great reputation, right? You come from home, said, you know, very beloved in the space, but you also had a bunch of failures. So what makes a brand work at an agency or is there is there internal structure of brands that like the best way to onboard an agency? Or is it really just, oh, the economics of that business do not work and there's nothing you could, any agency could have done. So maybe let's just run through some of those failures and then we can move on to the massive win you have right now. - Yeah, well, I think the economics is always the underlying piece. I mean, we worked with tons of brands that had a unique product or unique positioning, but they had 50% landed margins and all of a sudden they're trying to scale from, you know, they're trying to scale like a 6XMER and it's just really, really, really hard. And then there are other brands like Ridge and she's Bertie that have incredible margins and they can scale at really low MER numbers. And that certainly, probably at the baseline, the most important, I sort of looked at, there's like some categories, I guess, patterns that I've recognized over time in terms of the brands that we worked on that worked. I think one is taking existing technology and just positioning it really, really well. That's she's Bertie, they took a safety alarm, which has existed for hundreds of years, but they positioned it brilliantly. This is the safety alarm for women to attach to your backpack. They packaged it in a super punchy modern way. There are, you know, new categories, right? Like that's like the muddy bites of the world. They invented a new dessert and they totally started a new category, like a new subcategory within an existing category. And then I think there are the brands like Hexclad that have taken an existing product and an existing category and just totally leveled it up. You know, that's the Hexclad's, that's like lycrish.com or pretzels.com, you know, Lycrish has been around for decades, maybe centuries, but they, A, revolutionized the channel that they're distributing it to and truly innovated in the product and made it way better than anything else. You can buy candy-wise online. So I think those are the three, like subcategories. I've sort of identified of the brands that have worked. All the other ones that didn't work, like there's really nothing unique about them. They weren't innovating in their category. They weren't starting a new category. They didn't have, you know, unique positioning and existing technology or product type. Yeah, I think those are the three main ones. I've sort of identified that have worked. And I think honestly, probably all of your brands could probably be categorized within one of those three. I would guess if we thought about it. - Yeah, before we move on, just, you talked about unrealistic MER targets, right? So what are modern MER targets for brand listening? If you want to grow 20% year over year, you know, obviously it depends on price point and category and everything. But when you're on agency, you're seeing 50, 60 Shopify accounts. What is our working MER target that you're like, oh, I won't even touch a brand if they're beneath this? - Yeah, I mean, we would, we would, what I noticed is that a lot of these brand operate. I won't even say founders, 'cause it wasn't even all the time that we were working with the founders. But a lot of time it was that it didn't even necessarily have a framework for like dialing in an MER goal or a cat goal or whatever it is. So we would see some of these brands that would be like, hey, we want to be at a, like, we want to triple year over year and we want to do it at a 10X MER. And that's probably not super realistic, but it's not even, that's not even the problem as much as it is not having a model to think about, like how you even identify a MER target on a like per order basis. So like, very, very generally speaking, it's just first order AOV, minus pre, ad spend cost, minus X equals a goal margin per order. You solve for that cat goal. You take the first order AOV divided by that cat that you just solve for. And now you have a first order acquisition, media efficiency ratio target. Like, that thinking wasn't really happening and I thought that's what really led to these like very unrealistic goals that weren't rooted in anything. Like us asking what your MER or cat goal is and then responding with, well, what are your other brands doing? That's not a good idea. That's not the how you approach this. So I think the overall approach was just off and then, you know, so that was problem one. I don't think there's necessarily like an MER, I wouldn't even like touch if that brand came to me. It was like, hey, here's our MER target. I'm sure there are, right? Like if you get into like eight, I don't know. It depends on like your growth trajectory and how much you want to grow over time. Like what you're doing with your acquisition span. Like there's a ton of variables that go into whether or not you can actually achieve that. But like the biggest red flag is just not having any sense of how does this MER target connect to a profitability target? Because like at Hexclad, we're optimizing towards MER first and foremost. Ellie says an efficiency metric, but that's ultimately rooted in our like our goal, EBITOM, Argent. Like we'd roughly know what cost we're gonna have. And if we hit this MER target at our revenue goal, we should land at this EBITOM, Argent. So that's a, like it's rooted in sound reasoning and just a lot of these brands were not, they had no reasoning. It was just like kind of what's everyone else doing. So that's the biggest red flag for me. Like you gotta have a reason for your MER or your CAC target and then we can go from there. - Yeah, it's all math. And I'll give you an example of a brand you don't want to touch. When I had the agency days, we had a venture back customer. And they come and they're like, okay, what's a good marketing budget? And I'm like, well, you should probably spend like a third of your revenue on marketing. And they're like, Apple spends less than 5%. We want to spend less than 5%. And I'm like, you ain't no Apple, but there's a huge world of difference between being Apple and being some, some somehow. But let's go back to Matt's question. Matt, you wanna hit it again? - Yeah, I'm just curious. You mentioned the, you know, you came in house at Hexclad and you run the growth team, right? I'm always, like the thing I always want to know from people is like, what does their team look like? You know, who were your first hires? Why just unpack the people side of the business? 'Cause I think that's, I mean, if you're looking like the operator slack, what are the number one questions we always see? It's like, does anybody know? Insert blank. Like someone to do insert blank. So I'm just curious, man, what's the team look like? - Yeah, and someone kind of like, thinking I wanted to add on top of that corner 'cause you mentioned it earlier and we've touched on it before. How did the experience, the tactical experience that you'd gotten on the agency side help you to build out your team? Because one of my big things is, why I think every CEO, even, should be pretty involved in the tactical at some point, is how do you expect to hire good people if you don't know what it takes? takes to actually do the job. And so it was really interesting to hear you say that, for all the people that want to do, quote unquote strategic things and high level thinking. And so there's kind of this aversion to like being in the muck and doing the grinding. I think we do a poor job sometimes of helping people understand you have to do the grinding in order to be good at the high level sometimes. So anyway, if you can unpack that as you're answering it. - Yeah, well, you can never do the thinking work if you can't do the doing work first. I don't think. 'Cause how could you think up, like if I want to launch a new product and that new product, I'm gonna try to sell it to existing customers and I'm gonna try to acquire new customers on it. And that's gonna involve creative, landing pages, it's gonna involve analytics to understand if we're profitable, it's gonna involve own media. It's gonna involve every growth channel there is probably. There's no way you can ever write up a competent strategy if you haven't actually, you know, push those levers yourself. So I think it's impossible to be a good strategist if you haven't been a doer inside of these out accounts. I just don't know how you could do it. - Hell yes. - Dude, it's a great point. It's, you know the most important guy on a building site, it's the construction forum, not the architect. 'Cause the architect's gonna drop whatever, but the forums, like we're not gonna fucking build that. Well, it will not work. So, great point, Connor. - Yeah, so with that being said, I also think you need to have the doers in your organize, or the thinkers in your organization before you have the doers. 'Cause if you hire like a bunch of designers or copy-writers or ad-buyers, but you don't have, you know, a director of paid media or creative strategies giving those people guidance, then it's kind of all for nothing. You need to have that like top-down structure I think. So that's how I've approached it. We've basically hired a director for every vertical of growth. So we have a director of paid media. We have a director of influencer marketing. We have a director of retention. We have a director of affiliate and SEO. So we basically have all of our different director levels covered, and basically the give and take between myself and those people. I'm overseeing the entire performance marketing org, which is all those areas. And me and these people are really aligning on strategies and priorities and how we're gonna go about things, and then they're really responsible for seeing that execution all the way through. So they're the ones really, you know, seeing through the day to day. Now that we have hired directors for all of our different growth categories, we're now starting to layer in managers. You know, as these directors have full plates and we wanna do more than they have the bandwidth for, we're now hiring managers. So they can go delegate some of that execution work and some of the thinking work to these managers. So now we have a retention manager. We have a influencer relationships and operations manager. We are now starting to build out the team with more doers. We have a designer for retention. We have a full-time copywriter now. So as we get further and further along, we're starting to build out, you know, more managers and like, yeah, manager and coordinator level. And I guess I'll group together like the copyrators, the designers inside of that, that like coordinator manager level. So that's been, that's how we've approached it. It's worked out so well. I still feel like there's probably another 10 roles we need to hire for just based on all the things we're trying to do. But overall, I think that like top down approach of, you know, hire the thinkers and the managers before you hire the people that are going to go do all this, this work for you. I think it's impossible to do it the other way. - What's the most impactful role that surprised you? Like you made one hire and it has the biggest impact and you didn't see that coming. - Oh, I will, I will also mention we have an e-commerce manager who is incredible. That person, honestly, is probably one of the most impactful hires because they're, they're simultaneously strategic and technical. So what I found myself, what I found happening last year, like six months into the role, as I was getting, probably two into the weeds on executing some of these things that we were rolling out. And that's just because of, you know, where I had come from from the agency background. I was used to being hands on keyboard. And I knew though I had to like get out of the weeds a little bit, I would say the e-commerce manager, who is really like facilitates all things, like report polling and e-commerce operations. So like, you know, account access and like, hey, there's a bug in the Facebook like Pixel, we need to fix it and hey, we need to integrate like all, like our L of our tracking with all of our landing pages and hey, we need to duplicate this landing page for the Australian markets in that domain. And like all that stuff takes a lot of time and it's very technical. He's probably been the most impactful hire 'cause all of a sudden it freed me up to say, "Hey, we definitely need to do this. I need your help to go execute and get this through the finish line." And it's allowed me to, you know, spend more of my time thinking strategically. So I'd say that's been a big one, but honestly, we have really talented directors. I honestly like look back at the first six to nine months of my role last year and wondered how we were able to do it without those feet people. But I'll definitely give a special call out to the E-Com operations manager on our team. He's super talented and has definitely made my life a lot easier. - Yeah, I mean, I think what's important there is the paid media person isn't doing all of those roles, right? I think that's the takeaway for a brand listening. It's that it used to be the person running your Facebook ads, would write your copy, would make your creative, would manage the landing pages. And if you want hex cloud level results, which are best in class, 100 plus percent growth year over year at nine figures, what you need is a very large specialist team that Connor can sit over everybody, but you have somebody doing influencer, you have somebody doing e-commerce, you have somebody doing paid social, you have somebody doing content. It just requires all these different specialized bodies to get that done. And that's another reason why agencies probably don't work that well for a lot of brands, is that they expect one person or one hire to handle that entire stack of tasks. - Yeah, we love NorthTheme. The longer I operate in this role at hex cloud, the deeper and deeper and the more things we're using NorthTheme for. So we use it for the reason NorthTheme was initially created for their multi-touch attribution to inform channel level and inter-channel performance and optimization decisions, but more recently, we're really loving NorthTheme's media-mix modeling solution to inform our overall media mix. They've created multiplier data for us. So we can plug in our blended metrics, our blended goals and understand roughly where we need to be inside of each channel to hit those blended metrics. So it's become a really nice pulse check at the channel level. So yeah, NorthTheme's becoming this truly all-in-one attribution tool and it's core to our day-to-day decision-making. - Connor, do you find in your role now with the team you've built out? Do you have to, are you zooming in to the details on each of the things that you oversee, like email, SMS, paid social, like they give all the channels, like how much are you actually doing that? Are you going deep into the weeds and every function looking at the data? Or are you more on like leadership strategy? Like can you describe that a little bit like your day-to-day in a week? - Yeah, it's a little bit of both. The way that I look at my role is I'm trying to, overall, I'm trying to innovate in growth and then delegate it to one of my team members to run it in a more sustainable way. So a good example of this. We sent a lot of time thinking about how do we effectively roll out new products last year and even this year we were launching new products all the time. We have a really good product development team. They're building awesome products. We've had a lot of success. Even the last two months with a couple of new products we've dropped, that entire strategy and how we manage the strategy was entirely new last year. And it's a super cross-functional, it involves ops, it involves finance, it involves the product team. There's so much to be done. So last year I spent a lot of time thinking about, A, what are the tactics that we want to implement here to drop a new product? Then B, how do we actually get this rolled out in an organized way? Now that that's built out and developed and we've done it over and over again by 10 times, I've sort of off-boarded that onto our e-commerce manager and our director of attention to really manage the day-to-day of that. Now what's new this year that we're working on right now is we're starting to build out acquisition funnels around some different product categories. So now that's like a new innovative area to our growth. So I spent a lot of time in the last three months working with our director of paid media creative, our director of paid media to basically just talk through how we're going to produce all these assets. What are those assets going to be? How are we going to analyze the data once we actually launch these? What's success going to look like in a knives funnel? How are we going to look at that? So that I'm very, very in the weeds on right now, because we're on the five yard line for two of these new categories and we'll probably be launching them in the next couple of weeks. And I'll be super in the weeds on the data. But then again, once that's going and we have a good feel for it, I'll basically-- I don't want to say automate the data. Because that's the part I still need to be involved in, how are we performing here once these things are live. But I'll basically set it up in a way where every month, I'll get a report or every two weeks. I'll get a report from the director of paid media on the analytics model that we agreed on today. So and then once I do that, I'll move on to the next thing. So that's sort of how I look at my role, like innovate and then systematize and delegate it is how I try to approach things. Connor, you're incredibly smart. us want to point out that building new product categories is pointless without acquisition funnels behind those product categories. The real world example from Ridge is in Q1, we acquired six figures worth of new customers. So hundreds of thousands of brand new customers with 30% of those new customers coming from rains. So those people have never heard of Ridge wallet, have never bought wallets and now think of us as a ring company. And that is how you can scale your business to multiple nine figures. That's how you can unlock next levels of growth. And it's very difficult to do it, but you're thinking about it correctly. Matt, you had a point. Okay, I want to ask a question on that, though, because I think it's a great point, Sean, like everybody's trying to figure out how to produce produce growth. And there's basically this, I'm going to put up a totally different product, bring in new people that I couldn't bring in with my core off or whatever. That's what you did with rings, you know, like you're bringing in people that you didn't think you were going to get in the door with wallets. And maybe they buy a ring and then they buy a wallet, but rings gets them in the door. And it gives you all these kind of new places that you can get out there and get in front of people. Connor, obviously, Hexclad has a product that it's going to be very difficult to find a category that's as big as pans. And so like in some of these new product launches, they're probably don't have a bigger tan than pans. So how are you thinking about it? Are you thinking about it as what we're trying to do is take our current customer and expand how much of their share of wallets we get by them buying other things? Or are you thinking we're trying to use this to bring in new people that we can't get in the door through pans? And this for this specific use case, it's the latter. We're trying to bring in our hypothesis is that the person that I'm going to acquire by showing them a knife ad or a pepper grinder ad or a cutting board ad is likely completely different than the person that we're acquiring with a 12 piece set on or even specialty cookware. So our thought is that, you know, we want to ultimately not be a pots and pans brand. We would be a kitchenware brand. That's valuable for a lot of reasons. But the only way we're going to do that is if we start to get people to buy non-cookware products on their first order, just like period. I don't think there's it like yes, we're obviously going to try to get every person that we've already acquired on cookware to buy knives and pizza steel and double runner griddle, which I think we've done a really nice job of. We have a pretty good, like what we call launch in sustained strategy within our own media channels. But yeah, until we start bringing people in on non-cookware, we're never going to be a kitchenware brand. So that's been a little bit of our shift in thinking for us because last year we just had super aggressive top line growth goals and we knew we had to just triple down into our core, you know, 12 piece and 6 piece that offers to do that. And you'll notice if you look at like our Mother's Day sale or our Memorial Day sale, it's basically all derivatives of that 12 piece set offer, what we're doing, at least in acquisition. So yeah, I just think we need to bring people in on non-cookware products. And I also think we're getting at all sorts of insights in terms of lifetime value and like sequential order trends. Like I have a feeling that our post-purchased cycle marketing will look totally different from a 12 piece set buyer than a hex-mil pepper grinder, then a pizza steel grinder, which I think is going to unlock a lot of exciting marketing activations for us. But yeah, that's basically it. Like we're trying to bring first-time orders in on these new products. And I think, you know, Sean, you always talk about finding your second hero product. We basically have like five categories that we're going to build funnels around and we're going to see which ones are the most A, like profitable and B, drive the most volume and then scale them and then rinse and repeat as the goal over the next six to 12 months. Okay, so a couple more questions. Who do you see as your main competitor or is it like, is it Ninja? Like when you're thinking of the way that you're framing the brand when you're like, we are a kitchenware brand. Who do you see as like your aspirational competitors? I would say like, you know, we're a, I kind of divide cookware into, I might get in trouble for saying this. So we'll see. I kind of divide cookware into like function, function and it's function and vibes, right? Like we're selling function. We're selling, hey, great seer, great nonstick. And then there's other brands out there that are selling more, hey, this is going to look great sitting on your stove top or on your counter or whatever. So then, you know, we're definitely more function. I think the pans look nice too, but we're really leaning in like if you look at our ads, we're leaning into like, what does hybrid mean? We're leaning into outcomes that the stainless steel provides and that the nonstick provides. So in that context, I would say like a made in is probably our number one competitor, like made in an all-clad, like they're selling functional cookware and they're selling outcomes. You know, we're never really going to lean too deep into the selling, make your kitchen look sexy, you know, more than we're, we will sell that as like a secondary value prop, but it's more through the imagery that we put out there in the video content that we put out there. We're not really building ads around, you know, good vibes. Okay, so here's the one other follow up because you kind of referenced it and I think I know the answer, but it's worth calling out for everybody. You've kind of tested and optimized into this 12 piece bundle being at the very core of your kind of growth strategy in pans. Why? Really, the unit economics of it, we test tons of offers. So like when we roll out, if we roll out three new product categories, let's say we're going to test knives, hex mills, let's just say knives and hex mills. Basically, the two things I want to know more than anything else is contribution margin on first time order between those two categories. And then over time, I'll measure LTV growth. Maybe hex mills has much higher upside than knives. I don't know, but basically the analysis we'll be doing is, you know, first order AOV on these new categories, minus out the costs, you know, cost to produce the product, cost to ship it here, cost to ship it out to the customer. Sometimes we even bacon content costs for these things. And then the blended acquisition costs. So how many first, how much did I spend in funnels around this product divided by the number of first time orders in this product? And that's going to get us our first order contribution margin. Now granted, we're going to slice it a few different ways. We're going to be looking at net, cack on all first time orders. But then we'll also be looking at, okay, what was our baseline first time orders before we launched funnels. And now what's our new baseline and using analysis like that. Plus we can use house to basically measure first time orders on specific product categories as well. So we'll be, we'll be looking at like a net, you know, cack on these product categories and a like incremental cack and kind of triangulating between those two. But that's like the baseline analysis will be doing when we launch all these funnels and then whichever ones have the best contribution margin on that first time order, we can probably scale up more aggressively because we have room to, you know, scale into better top line revenue. And even if contribution margin comes down a little bit, I bet we'll be netting more profit dollars, you know, and that's a totally different analysis. We need to get that baseline data first. But that's generally how we'll be looking at things. Have you found one like that there's a non pan category that leads the best to the sets? Like one of these lower A O because it's like trying to sell, when you sell somebody something for 50 bucks, trying to buy like a $500 item that's such a big jump, right? Or 80 bucks, but ascension is difficult. Like if you guys actually map that out, you're like, this is our current winner. This is actually what gets people through the door. And then we've got like decent success. And then, you know, one thing we've talked about the second part to this that Sean has actually mentioned in the past, which I've seen in our companies and companies I've been involved with building over the years is like the percentage of people who buy multiple things from a brand is very low. Right? Like you maybe get 10%. That'll be like, it's going to buy a ring and then a wallet from Ridge. So have you also seen that? Right? That it's just it takes time for people to buy across categories from a single brand. Oh, definitely. I mean, we do all of our. It's funny. If you look at all of our first time order products and you order them from most like highest order value to lowest and then you chart out like LTV growth as a percentage over time, you know, the higher the product value on first order, the lower percentage LTV growth, it is over time. So that's an over a right. Like if I sell someone a hundred thirty dollar pepper grinder, I should be able to double hopefully their their lifetime value over the course of the year. Whereas if they buy a 12 piece set, that might only grow by like, I don't know, 10%. Even that would be, it would be pretty solid. We haven't done this a lot with our non hero offer products just because we haven't had funnels built out around them. We've done a lot of like market basket analysis and sequential order analysis for the 12 piece and six piece set in order to inform what we prioritize in our own media cross cells. Like we basically have the our approach to cross selling is that we have a general cross cell flow that like all first time buyers go into and then we have intent based like product specific cross cell flows. So in order for you to get into our three to four email sequence about knives, you have to have visited the knives collection page or visited one of the knives product pages. So you had you had to have like fired of you content, you know, clavio tag. And that's why we have that like upper funnel cross cell to get people into it and we do loyalty as it get people into it. I'm sure we're going to find out though, very quickly, what those sequential order reports in market basket analyses look like for the knives and the hex-mills and then action on those with our own media and onsite cross-selling and upselling too. But we haven't really done that for the non-cookware products just because we haven't been bringing in a ton of people on first-time orders with them. I just want to point out that very nuanced that Matt pointed out. AOV, a sentient of new product categories is incredibly difficult. So, Connor Hexclap has a, I'm going to guess $500 AOV right now, right? And you're in nine figure business with a $500 AOV and you're going to launch product categories that are going to have lower AOV and the current modern digital ecosystem is not set up for that. It's going to want to optimize for now selling the $130 product or $100 product and that's why it reaches so much success going from $100 wall to $200 rings to $300 carry on because it doesn't matter if those people buy up the curve but it could totally fuck up your whole business if they buy down the price curve. So that is just a big challenge of launching new product categories is can it actually be a creative, right? Like the other challenge you have is you're already a massive fucking business. So rings, huge success for us, eight figures in revenue of the first year. I worry that if you get that a new product category, you guys might not think that's success when it really is a massive success. So just trying to be realistic with you and the team that like if you launch a new product category and you even get to $5 million in the first year, actually a big W and I think you guys might have bigger aspirations. But I love how you're thinking about that or Matt, how you're thinking about that. I think it's just great. Like it's a really great call out Sean. I mean, one of the things that a company size Hexclad has to start thinking about is the size of shot on goal matters a lot and not just like, you know, total size of shot on goal. So like is this a $50 million, $100 million potential business line for us at your scale? But then it's also the margin profile of each business and each product that you go after, like I think that's really important because obviously the core products have great margin and perform well. So any product that you add, if it doesn't meet at least one of the two criteria so like it could be a big tam or a great margin, it almost becomes risky totally to the value of the company, like shareholder value. It sounds that how dumb does that sound also? Like you launched a $30 million business that has 10% worse margin than the cookware and that actually might hurt the company. Yeah. And, you know, like you have victim of your own success here and knowing she feel bad for Hexclad, knowing she feel bad for Connor, right? Like you don't feel bad for a guy driving a Rolls Royce even if it's one year old, right? But the challenge you do have is the only product category that could be the net margin expansive or net AOV expansive would be appliances. Like you have to make a Hex fridge because if you have a $500 AOV, you have to get to $3,000 now, right? And like the only, that's the only way you can move up the curve. So appliance margin suck. Totally. Totally. So the supply chain now is even worse. So like it, it becomes, or you got to go after consumable, right? Like that's also a thing. So you get something that's got an incredible LTV profile on it. And I've pitched salt to Jason a dozen times. I'm like, you got to just have the spice cabinet. You got to get those people on subscription there. But Connor, I mean, we're we're shooting holes in probably the thing you're the most excited about. So what are you, what are you excited about in this business right now? Well, I'm excited about the top line revenue upside for some of these product categories. And Sean, we are, we're doing some tests in the next month or so on the, on the complimentary product upselling. So we'll, you know, I'm trying to make that argument that that might be a good play for us or not. Maybe I could be wrong, but we're rolling some things out to try to validate that. So I'll have to keep you in the loop on that. But I'm pumped about the upside on some of these new product categories. So yet, sure, I doubt we'll ever hit that first order contribution margin that we have on the 12 piece set. We have a lot of things working on their favor there. We have good line of costs. We have a really high AOV. We can go and scale into some, some pretty awesome, you know, paid media spend numbers because of that. But even if the hex smells never hit that, that first order contribution margin that the, that the 12 piece set is at the upside to grow that, that top line business is it's so prime right now. It's basically where hex clouds cook where it was at in 2020 where they had run some Facebook ads, but they, there's a lot of levers they hadn't pulled yet. And all of a sudden we started pulling those levers and cook where it started growing by 100% year over year over year. I think we could do that in a lot of these other product categories over the next two to five years. And again, even if on a per order basis, they're not as profitable. And I could be wrong on this, but I think that's a really good optic for, for proving that we can do more than just cookware. And we just haven't pulled any of those levers yet. Like we have not taken a really good swing at hex mills or knives or a lot of the, or cutting boards or a lot of these other categories and ads. I'm excited to see if, if we can start doubling and tripling first orders and, and revenue on first orders that contain these products. Conor tactically speaking, are you concerned, Sean, are you very, you briefly touched on this? Are you concerned about, and then are you thinking of solutions for the ad platform, not being able to deliver you like with an account, a pixel, a new customer, and a new vertical like dude knives on Facebook. Can you even advertise knives on Facebook? Number one, it like then, you know, the, like that's not, it's not even close. Like how, how are you thinking of this tactically? Because I know a lot of people listen to this show. They actually are really in the weeds of this shit. So like maybe give them a view into like you're talking funnels. You're like, how separate are these things going to be? And are you prepared for that? Yeah. And then like, I'm really, really excited about it. And I'm really excited about it. So like, I'm really excited about it. and saving $100,000 in 2014. I made $20,000. $20,000 a year. Okay, I worked an entire year, 10 years ago, and I made 20 grand. There's no way I'm giving an email provider, $200,000 a year. - Is that when you were folding shirts at Abercrombie? - I probably worked with Brooks Brothers that. I was an intern at Brooks Brothers in 20, yeah, I guess, 20, 14 or whatever, but dude, Abercrombie wouldn't hire me. Have you seen the way, there's no way I'm getting at Abercrombie, dude. That's the hardest for the hot guys. You know, Connor worked at Hollister, so he could get in, not me though. - I have so many questions for you. Now that you guys are expanding categories, it's super cool. When you guys launch a new category, you mentioned like this sort of launch and sustain strategy. Could you maybe unpack that a bit? Like what does that mean? Like across channels, you know, influencer activations. Like what does that look like at Hacksclad? - Yeah, so this is mainly like, I use launch and sustain and reference to our own media channels. So launch, obviously, well, before we even launch, we've been building out like our teaser strategy. So we're putting out teaser campaigns that redirect to a landing page that is just all new product information oriented so we're building intent for these products. Like as of now, like a month or so had it in a launch, I'm trying to get it out to be like two to three months. I had a launch. Then launch strategy, we basically have like a two to four week period where we're over indexing on a new product categories, you know, campaign sense. Like hey, we just launched the pizza steal or pushing pizza steal campaigns at an increased rate for like the following month or two, following that launch. And then sustain strategy is more so referred to referring to like a the banners that will place inside of campaign. So it's like, all right, now we're now we're two and a half months out from pizza steal. So we're not as doing it. We're not doing as many pizza steal focus campaigns, but we might push a recipe oriented campaign that has a little banner at the bottom that's pumping our pizza steal, right? So making sure that we're peppering those in, you know, for four, five, six months after the launch. And then ultimately getting it built out into our lifecycle marketing. So hey, now this cross sell flow, we've edited it to include, you know, pizza steal. And before it didn't have pizza steal and that's gonna ensure that everybody that buys is at least gonna get that own media exposure to the pizza steal. Even when we're done, you know, pumping it in campaigns, you know, twice a week or three times a week, which is what we might do for the first three to four weeks following a new product launch to ensure that we get that, you know, that initial spike in returning customer orders. - Yeah, did you, I guess with the pizza steal, the people who buy the pizza steal was that largely existing customers? - Yeah, 75%. But honestly, surprisingly more, yeah, surprisingly more first time orders on that than I thought, which is actually why we're building out a funnel around it now, we weren't planning on it, but when we looked at that organic first time order data, we're like, wow, that's, that, yeah, we were shocked actually. But yeah, it's a different customer. That's why I was asking. Like the pizza steal just jumps out at me like that could, that's a, like I would probably be more of a head cloud pizza buyer, pizza steal buyer, then I, yeah. Other stuff. - We were shocked at how well that product's performed. It's very specialty and very niche. And it's been one of our better product launches in the last half year I'd say. - I just still think the biggest opportunity at Hexclad is product expansion. And it is, you know, getting into consumables, if that's a high in wine, if that's olive oil, if that's something. Also, I mean, getting into higher end like large scale appliances, I say a fridge jokingly, but fuck it, why not, $3,000 fridge? You got the customer base for it. The last one is existing product adding seasonality, right? Just having a Hexclad color of the year, and I've pitched this to Jason a dozen times. So I'm pitching to you Connor, maybe you got more sway over there than he does. But like the challenge there is, is he's like, he's like, why should I do it now? And it's like, start building that muscle because it is so fucking hard to introduce seasonality. You're talking about launching a single or a pan. And it's gonna be there forever now. Like you have this pan, right? You're gonna sell to all your existing customers. You're gonna try to scale it in your acquisition. And the lesson for everybody is, product launches are mostly pops off of revenue, 75% return in customers, unless you can build acquisition funnels around them, which is like such a big fucking challenge to do. For all the reasons we've already talked about. But yeah, that's just my whole pitch is that, you can continue to react to a return and customer revenue through seasonality, additionally. - And we're starting to, we actually have a, I don't wanna spill the beans too much. We have a new wearable product that we're launching in the next month. That's gonna allow us to do some fun. And we actually have a custom version of it coming along like right after the launch. So yeah, we are actually building that muscle out right now. What does it mean to create a custom product? And what's the value of doing that? Like you talk about, you guys with your, I mean, Mike's a great example, right? They do all sorts of licensing deals. Like with, I don't even, I'm gonna, a Disney and sports teams. Like you've just unlocked a totally different subset of buyers that would never have bought just like an evergreen cup, right? Like there are Kansas City cheese fan and now that you have that, you will unlock that customer type. Same with you Sean and you're, I think you guys do the NFL walls too. Like we are, yeah, I've been excited about that for a while. We finally have a product category that I think is gonna allow us to do a lot of fun activation. So we'll, you'll see it coming out towards the end of April, early May. And you can get, you can give me some feedback Sean on where we should have, or where we could improve on like the custom product. 'Cause this is the first time we've ever done it, but I think it's a really fun one and it's a really cool custom product that we're launching with. I'm pretty proud of it. - Hell yeah, man. All right, Matt, what else do we wanna hit on? We talked about team structure a little bit. Did anything else you wanna talk about there? - No, I mean, team structure, I think we've, that's been great Connor. It's just cool to hear how you think about things. You know the other one, I'd love to just like, at your scale now, get a read on what it looks like, especially from your seat, is just around creative ideation and like volume of creative and where does that come from? Like what does that system look like and has it changed much in the last 12 months or is it kinda just, nope, it's the same thing just bigger? - I mean, the process is always changing. I think the creative flywheel is one of the hardest things to keep running in a marketing org. Generally speaking, here's how we go about it. So we have a creative testing calendar. So all creative tests get scheduled out in there so we don't lose anything, right? Like once an asset is finalized, it gets uploaded into air. Well now we're using Recharm actually to house the final assets. That link goes into our creative testing calendar. We had no organization around this when I started, like, you know, when I first started. So that was step one, like we gotta be organized here. Step two was building out a model for how we compare creative. Like, hey, we just launched a new batch of statics. Like what makes us say this is performing well or not performing well. So basically we use naming conventions in motion to create control metrics. So if I launch a new batch of statics, I'm gonna be comparing that batch of statics to aggregate testing, account-wide aggregate statics. And basically if it's better than testing, we'll try to scale it. The more controls it's better than, the more confident we are in scaling it, you have to have, that's the baseline. You have to have a system for how you analyze creative. And it has to be very black and white. So we've got out these like control metrics. - I got a, yeah. I'm gonna stop you real quick because I think that's five episodes in there and we should just slowly unpack those. Okay, so you compare static ads versus static ads and you try to have apples, apples comparison of your creative. And you built out your system. How are you actually measuring? Are you measuring click through rates on these versus each other, view through duration, actual conversion rate, row as on individual assets? Like how, how much are you comparing on the asset by asset basis? - Yeah, so we measure thumb stop, hold rate, click through rate, one day click row as, one day click hack. And then like we have controls for all of those. So there's some natural like iteration-based conversations happening there, right? Hey, we just launched this new video and the one day click row as was 15% better than our account-wide testing, but the thumb stops 25% lower. Okay, like let's go pull our best three thumb stops from the last 30 days and add it to the beginning of this like high performing row as-based performing asset. So those are the metrics we look at 'cause you know we're trying to identify something to to like append to each part of the ad. - Right, so you're trying to vol-tron out the best performing asset possible, right? So you've broken your out into first frame, first three seconds, different types of hooks. Can you run through the autonomy of an ad and like what it actually looks like? - Yeah, so are you saying in terms of like how do we connect like the actual part of an ad to the metric that we're measuring that part of the ad with? - Sorry, and I don't mean to totally derail 'cause I can tell you you're fucking, you're about to go on a rip. But I think it's important to be like, hey, this is what makes up an ad. A static ad super easy, right? It's like it's a fucking picture. But like we're talking about a video creative. Like there's all of these different pieces you're slicing together. Like what are the new blocks? Yeah, what's the name of the building blocks? Yeah, so first off, thumbstop hook, whatever you want to call it, hook thumbstop measures the hook. So that's the visual and the written copy that's going to open the video up. That's going to get someone into it. You know, historically it's been like a Gordon Ramsay quote or it's been us like putting these like old pans into industrial crusher or showing eggs slide around the pans. Like that first three seconds that, you know, is really just going to stop someone's scroll. Then you get into the body of the ad, right? That's like the actual the meat of consumption. That's what's actually going to get a high intent website visitor to your site. I think there's a lot of people that like do a lot of hacky clickbaity stuff in the body of their ads and I hate that because that just brings up a really shitty low value low intent person to your site. So that's the that's you actually get into the angle of your ad. So if you go to our ad library, a lot of our ads are focused on education around hybrid. So we might have a super punchy eye catching, you know, video hook showing eggs sliding around. Then we'll go into the next like, you know, that's one to five seconds. Then we go into five seconds to 20 seconds. And that's where we'll actually go into the explanation of hybrid. So that's where we're hitting on product value props. That's where hitting on product use cases. Then we usually transition into some sort of social proof. It could be, you know, customer social proof. It could be Gordon Ramsay. It could be another one of our chefs that we have a deal with. So that body slash social proof, that's like your hold rate. Then you have, then you have, you know, you know, call to action towards the end of the video. Like what do you want someone to do? Do you want them to go shop now? Do you want them shop to 12 piece set? Are they going to get like a price offer on the 12 piece set? You know, that plus the body, I would argue, is what really drives click through rate. That's like very generally. I mean, you could break it down more granularly than that. But I think like hook body CTA is like the three main pillars of any ad creative. I just want to make sure everyone has a frame of reference that like when we start diving into individual ad metrics, it's like the hook is, is the first thing because it doesn't matter if you'll never watch as you're at. So you have to get somebody's attention right off the rip and you're in between the two funniest TikToks you could think of. So it's like it really you need to grab somebody and make sure they watch it. Then you get into what the fuck is the ad about, right? So it's like educational hybrid, whatever was thrown a little bit of social proof. And then I think we, we call it an offer, right? So something at the end to be like, go to our website now and make this purchase. So to describe what you're, what you're talking about is you have control metrics for all of those, right? We're looking for a 25% thumb stop. We're looking for a 2% click through rate, whatever else, right? And this is the raw as for our account. Then you launch a bunch of creative, right? Brand new creatives that you guys shot that day and you look at how that new piece of creative, you know, each one of those sections is holding up versus each other. And then you're taking the best performing ones and slicing them together to try to reach the perfect golden ad. Is that right, Connor? Yeah, and it's like, I would say half of our net new creative test or iterations, I shouldn't say net new there. I'd say half of our creative test or iterations, half our net new, we've never tried this concept before. I don't know if that's the right mix or not. We want to make sure, I mean, you want to get as much legs out of winning creative, which is why you iterate, but you also want to be reaching net new people and you need to be rolling out totally different feeling creative to do that. So we try to keep it fairly even between those two categories. I mean, yeah, that's exactly right. And honestly, that's what our brainstorming sessions look like. At least when we're ideating iterations, we're truly just looking at how can we Frankenstein a bunch of these ads together that had above average thumb stop, hold rate, click through rate, a cat can row as. And then obviously we need to sometimes like fudge the video to make the narrative make sense. But that's a lot. I'd say that's at least half the time we spend is just like Frankensteining ads together. And then the other half is going into our log of, you know, net new ad ideas that we're constantly keeping going on any given basis. We have like a single source of truth. No matter where an ad idea comes in, it's our director paying media's responsibility to take good ideas and put them into a log. And then we spend time thinking through which ones we want to act on first. And that's more art than it is science. That's just saying, hey, like which one which ads are the most different? Which ones do we think of the most upside? Is it science if we're, if we have a concept that's similar to something that we ran before? But that's that's basically what we do. That's the ideation process right there. And we do that. We have like a weekly meeting where very informally we'll, we'll review all recent creative tests from like the previous week or two weeks. And then we have a more formal meeting where our ecom ops manager and our director paid media creative will put together like a more formal, formal report on all the top performing creative and scale tests from the last 30 days. And then we follow up with that meeting. We let that kind of sit with people for a few days. And we follow up with like a bigger group ideation meeting. And that's like the very general kind of cadence to how we go about producing ad creative. Connor, is the net new ideation being backed out of like specific customers that you guys are trying to acquire? More recently, yeah, we're starting to focus. Yes, we've actually made a, made it a priority this year to like we're, we're, we're drilling the hybrid person, right? Like the person that comes to our site and buys because we've convinced them that hybrid's the way to go. We are, we've got that covered. I don't, I'm like trying to convince our team that we don't need to iterate quite as much there. I want to go after like the parent who uses Hexclad because it heats up quick in it, in it, in it, cleans up quick and they're cooking two to three meals a day. Yeah, exactly like the wash. Yeah. Oh my god. So it's not the angle man. Like, yeah, you, Hexclad converted my wife because our, it's easy to wash. Yeah. And if you go look at our ad account, we've been doing a better job of that. Like a lot more like what I call subpersona is being targeted in our ad creative, like the parent, the bachelor. Like we, we hit, we even hit on New Year's. Like we had to save money with Hexclad was an, was an ad that we produced this year and we like positioned buying Hexclad one time versus all the, all the money you, you waste, re, re buying pans are all the money you waste ordering out. So I think we're doing a much better job this year of finding more, more winners within these subpersonas. We've kind of paused on that for the time being because we're producing funnels around. Like I said, these new products, but yeah, that's top of mind for us. And that's how you unlock scale, I think, in an ad account with creative. Yeah. For sure. A really important thing you hit on briefly that is worth pulling out and everyone digesting is that 50% of your creative efforts is just editing. So 50% of the time you are shooting net new ads, okay, which is expensive and hard to do and you have actors or whatever, you get just as much juice out of just editing the shit you already have. And when I talk to branch for the first time, I tell them they don't actually need new creative, they need an editor to start because the editor is actually doing the hardest work right off the rip. If you have a big catalog, you shut up on to stuff, they can bring so much more life into that. It's really important for brands to understand that. And you just know that innately because you would do it for so long. Most people don't even know what an editor is. So good job hitting that on the guy. Yeah. Well, especially if you're a growth trajectory is good. Like that means that if you're a, if you're a Facebook ads driven business and your growth trajectory is good, where your creative is working, like go iterate into oblivion and keep getting more juice out of your existing creative. Like you should still be producing that new, but your priority. Now if your growth trajectory is shit, okay, well, maybe you need to like, maybe you need to go back to the drawing board and think up some new net new ad ideas. But yeah, yeah, that's critical. I think I don't think a lot of brands get all the legs out of the creative they have in their library, including us. Like we have tons of creative that I know we're not using enough. Yeah, go hire some video editors and have them sift through all the content. Yeah, it's because it's, it's local maximum. You end up hitting a point with your creative and like you end up like chasing that higher, higher, higher until you look around. There's nowhere else to go. And you have to decrease results. You have to go back towards you having to rebuild it up. And I mean, we have winning creator from two years ago. That's just nobody's touching. Like, they're like, I was father's day two years ago. We're shooting new fathers day. But the best stuff is probably still back there. We've thought of those concepts. You got to breathe new life into them. Yeah. Connor, you've been here an hour. What else do you want to say? You're great at plugging, dude. You're the best at the marketing operators are plugging. You're the best to get a crush for plug. So the other two guys got to step up their sales game. Well, I'll say, I'll say, we got two, we got two more Banger episodes coming out in the next couple of weeks. We got a bunch more after that. So yeah, if you're into tactical, actionable lever polling type content, that's who kind of work creating the marketing operators for. It's either the person that's polling levers directly or the person who's managing the people that are pulling their levers directly. So we want you to listen to these shows and be able to go action on them the very next day and the very next week. So if that's you, check out the marketing operators pod. If you listen to this episode and you understood what Connor was saying and you were annoyed, I kept interrupting him, there's a different podcast for you. Okay. And if you didn't make it to this end because there was two dance, just stay here with the dummies. That's what the offer does podcast is. for. Thank you for listening. Thank you, Connor, for being here. Yeah, that was great, Connor. That's the part. Yeah, thanks guys. Appreciate it. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Operators Pod. Thank you, Matt, Jason, Sean, and Mike for having me here. Hey, go check out the Marketing Operators Pod. It's brand new. We're talking all things, growth, marketing tactics. If you're a tactician at an agency or brand, I think you'll love it. Follow Connor on Twitter at, I think, it's e-com-con. Something like that. Thank you for failing. Thank you, Sandland. Thank you, NorthBeam. We use all of them. Connor uses some of them. Matt uses some of them. Thank you for being here. Talk to you guys later.