E04: Sally Nursten, ITHQ | Perceptions and Stereotypes in the IT Channel

So today I'm delighted to be joined by Sally Nurston, who's from ITHQ, a tech solutions company. Sally, welcome to the show. Thank you so much, Hayley. What a lovely way to spend the afternoon. So as we start usually these podcasts, it's all about you, Sally. So what's a bit, no, a bit about who you are, what you do, how you got into this lovely world of technology. So do you want to give us a little bit of a backstory on that? Sure. Well, my path into tech was definitely a wiggly one. I don't know, is it easier to go forwards or backwards? Probably let's start at the beginning and see where we end up. So I never had any aspirations or ambitions at all to work in technology. In fact, when I was a teenager, all I wanted to do was become a ballet dancer, which is what I did. I went to the Royal Ballet School and I went to ballet rumba and then I was lucky enough to work professionally in the Netherlands for a couple of years with a modern company before I injured myself and had to stop. And even, well, I mean, back in those days we're going back to the 1980s. So, you know, typing up a CV on a typewriter in the library was about as close as I got to technology. When I realized I couldn't dance anymore, obviously, what skills could I possibly transfer from the ballet studio in a theatre life into a corporate sort of world? And I found myself via various bar jobs and tempering jobs and things like that working in the media. So, worked in television became a part of a big production team and worked on some really interesting programs. Then that led into writing for the BBC and Channel 4 websites, just some short media entertainment stories. That became a job working on a few free sheets for the independent newspaper and some spa magazines, which then became PR. So, that was my first sort of foot in the door in tech, was a dedicated PR agency and that gave me exposure to obviously technology businesses. So, from there I actually ended up meeting my husband during the course of my time at the agency and we now have IT HQ, it's a family run business and I look after the marketing. Yes, so I mean that's a potted version that goes back about 35 years. But that is insane. It is not typical and I mean, I don't think anybody's rooting to technology is typical, honestly speaking, because I think what we find is that technology is everywhere now. So, a lot of people are tripping and falling into it, not even trying hard. But you kind of didn't try and get to where you're at today, but you certainly, wow, you took every opportunity to use all of your skillset, didn't you there? Because ballet dancer to, I mean what a conundrum, ballet dancer to, what do you do next? Where are the core skills, the transferable skills? I'd say that there were an awful lot of transferable skills and actual fact from ballet dancing to media. And I would say it on the basis that how competitive, aggressively competitive the ballet world is. And I only know that vicariously, I was no balad dancer myself, what kind of hippo slash. Hardly, haily, clonk dancer. That was my forte. But from that, to be constantly proving yourself, I would imagine in the ballet world, to then media, which was incredibly aggressive as well. Do you think that helped? I mean, can you look retrospectively now and think, yes, I did have those skills and that's why it worked? Well, there was certainly never any question of tenacity or grit. I mean, that's, there are two things that ballet definitely teaches you. You just have to, it's just hard work from start to finish. You're only, they say, you're only ever as good as your last performance. So you come into the studio fresh for another day and it all starts all over again. So it's relentless. And I think that sort of drive and mentality did stand me in good stead for starting work in the media because again, you know, you go in there, you go into a busy studio and you just run around all day. You never know what's going to be thrown at you. So adaptability for sure, a good hard work ethic for sure. I mean, those are the two things I think I really took over. And a certain amount of, I fake it till you make it, I think, especially my first job. My first job in a television studio, well, well, it was a production company and it was the company that made playdays if anyone remembers back to the play bus. It's played it. So that was my first job. And blatantly, I don't want to say "Lide", but was kind of generous with my abilities on a computer. So I, for a year, I'd sent out CVs pretty much four or five a week to studios and companies all over the place trying to get my foot in the door. And I got this nibble back from this, from felgate productions as a receptionist. And in my interview, the lady asked me if I could write letters on a computer and I said yes. And I had never, I think I'd touched my dad's computer maybe a couple of times. So I literally sat there with the manual on my knee behind the reception desk for the first week, figuring out how to work this thing. And ended up editing scripts and sending out letters to fans and all sorts of things on that computer. But yeah, there were a few stumbling blocks along the way, but what was the role of you, though? Because the ballet, the ballet world, I mean, the idea of a ballet dancer, it's, I would argue there's probably a huge percentage of girls would say, "I want to be a ballet dancer, I want to be a princess, I want to be an actress." And so it's glamorous. So you're wanting the glamour and you know it's going to be hard work. But what was driving you in the media world to learn how to use a computer to edit scripts, to push yourself? What were you after? What were you aiming for? Yeah, that's an interesting question actually. I just wanted to be part of that sort of production family. And I think that was going back to what I knew. So that feeling of being in a show is just the best feeling in the world, you know, when you're part of a theatre and you've got that stage to go to every day. And I could see production as being like that, but in a different way, in some ways much better because there was no pressure of performing anymore in terms of, you know, you've got to look a certain way with ballet and you've got to, is everything in your life is determined by that career. So what you eat, when you go to bed, who you hang out with, absolutely everything. So I felt quite free going into television. And yes, I couldn't, I couldn't at that point see whether I would want to go sort of more into the director role or more into the producer role. But over time it ended up being more of a production thing. I enjoyed, I suppose the what drove me to come back to your question would be trying to figure that out actually in the beginning was just trying to figure out which where I slotted in, you know, which, where did I belong in that big production family. So I just wanted to try everything. I wanted the skills. I was just desperate to know how to type fast. You know, I remember seeing people being able to type and I'd look at this mystery of keys in front of me thinking, right, today I'm going to do it. I'm just going to look at the screen and I'm going to do it. And of course it was a mess. And everything about it was just teach for self. I loved the challenge. I loved the, I loved the not knowing and figuring it out actually. You know, I've mentioned something like that to someone today that I don't like planning more than two to three years ahead because I love not knowing what the future holds. And if I did know what the future held, I'd probably just die now. It's a bit of a roast isn't it? So going to going to where we're at now, where you are now, I T H Q yourself, your husband, your family business, brilliant company, obviously highly commended, CRN last year. Yay. What do you think the skills you have today or how you're using, what you're using as a skills today are the same skills or your past has helped you to use those in the business? Definitely knowing how to try, fail and try again over and over and over again. Well, you literally try, fail like fall over, you know, you literally fall over, pick yourself up off the floor and have to do it all over again. So I'm not afraid of that. And I think that put me in a good place. And it's coming back full circle, you know, marketing and obviously I'm CMO at I T H Q. Even since I've worked in marketing, which obviously going through PR, etc, it's changed so much. When I started working in PR, it was all print magazines and the biggest thing was to get on paper and websites were seen as this kind of poor cousin. And of course now, where on earth do you click on a page, obviously everything's changed. So you just want to be preferably in a space where people can access your via their phones or Apple Watch or something because then you're on their list the whole time. You're in their pocket the whole time. So that in itself is a massive change and changing constantly, I suppose, the sort of evolution keeps it exciting and that I can definitely trace back that feeling of excitement in that terms of, "Wonder what today is going to bring," you know, which is like dancing really. Sometimes you and sometimes you wake up in the morning as a dancer and think, 'I am not feeding it today,' and they can be your best days, they end up being your best days. And other times when you think, yes, I've got it today and something will happen and you're like, you're just shows you that you can never prepare for a day, you just have to get up and do it. It's just a thing, isn't it? Yeah. So out of the three areas then, so you've got ballet, media, tech. If you had your life all over again, which one would you have forever? Oh, that's a tricky one. That's a tricky one. It would be between media and tech. I do love, I do love the, I love technology and that, you know, we've, it's everywhere, isn't it? You know, you can't do anything now without there being something to do with technology involved. So, which takes me, that's kind of what interested me in getting into tech in the first place in PR. So that was a nice melding of tech and media to me because I got to learn about the technology. I was using, I was a young mum at the time when I started that job. So I had two very young children, two and four. And without my, in those days, Blackberry, I simply couldn't have done my job because quite often I was called out of the office hat to go and pick up a child. Literally the dreaded splicious had opened in the playground. That happened to me, had to go and take him home and finish my day on a Blackberry. But I could do that because of the technology. You know, the day wasn't a right off. You know, go back even, perhaps five years earlier and I wouldn't have been able to do that. So, for me, it was really multi-layered when I, when I first, yeah, started working in, in the technology industry was because I got to write about it. I got to work with journalists. So it was like a little bit of my past with my present and I could see how this future in tech, I mean, things changed so quickly, just in that, when I worked for that company for probably about eight years altogether. You know, things changed so much in that time and they continue to change at such a pace and that keeps it so exciting. So, but I, for me, I suppose marketing is the perfect role because it brings together the media and tech. So yeah, ballet was really fun and I loved it and I loved it. Like you said, I had the passion of a child when I did ballet. In many ways, I see hurting myself as a bit of a luckier skate because I don't, I don't think I, I don't think it would have engaged me in that if I had gone into teaching because obviously it's a short career, you don't perform forever, you know, dance says that make it to 35 or 40 in this similar stage, just incredible, incredible to me. But inevitably you end up going to coaching or teaching or opening your own school and something in me knew that that just wasn't for me and I really admire people that do have that really long career and dance, but I think I would have fashioned it. It's a little bit like footballers, I suppose isn't it? And you see a lot of young boys with their dreams of being a premiership footballer and they keep going and keep going and they never get chosen, they might play for certain teams. And then they don't, you know, thing, they get rejected and you can see the kind of like I, and there are guys that's a real shame, but I'm so pleased that you recognise those core competencies because everybody's got them, everybody's got transferable skills and I think that's really, really important. So tell us what you do on a day to day, give us a little bit of an overview of Sally Nirston's CMO ITHQ. Well, at the moment it's mostly about managing leads actually. So we're just very sort of hands on with how we market the business. There's a little bit of everything involved obviously, so there is a little bit of PR involved, there's some blogging, there's some content creation or more often than not now. That's obviously I engage people to do that for us. But constantly, in first and foremost, my top priority is how can I help drive pipeline? So whatever I do, it's always got that sort of outcome in mind. Yeah, and as I say, it changes, it changes, I would say quarterly, the thrust changes quarterly. So we've got a whole new way of looking at email marketing now, that's not working in the way that it worked a year ago. So what do we do about that? Do we try and do it a different way or do we replace it with something else? How's LinkedIn working now? Because that also is working differently from height, where do we go? So yes, it's interesting. My two days are never the same. It's a sure answer. I love that. I love that. And so it shouldn't be in this constantly evolving world. So let me tell you a bit of a story that I kind of started before we kind of went on record about perceptions. And because when you and I met, God, it a couple of years ago. I think it was, yeah, it was at the CRN. I think we bonded immediately on the stories of perception of women in tech. And even though it's a well-utilised term now, there's lots of really good groups and awards and all that kind of good stuff. It still remains for me a discriminatory point. And I was away RSA last week and was on a stand. I was with a male colleague. We were introduced to the CEO of a software business. And he made a direct line to my male colleague, almost ignoring me. And after about, I don't know, five minutes of talking to my male colleague, all of a sudden there was an introduction. Oh, this is Hayley. She's the CEO and founder of the business. And his holder mean a change. Oh, she's actually somebody to talk to. And it really pissed me off, quite frankly. And I know that we had that conversation briefly about your perception experiences. And I just wanted to explore that with you as well, because even though we should be treated as equals, we are 50% the population, whatever it is, I think it was 51 at one point, there's still the expectation that, oh, perception that women do one job and men do another. Give me some examples of what you've experienced over the years, because you know, you talk about you being a ballad dancer and then in media, which again, was probably quite sexist back in the day. And tech, what's your perception of all that? And how do you see that changing? Well, I've definitely experienced moments, as you say, I've been called out on a meeting where there were only men and me. And it was just a product demo. It was fairly straightforward. And then halfway through the person holding the meeting said, oh, we should take a break because Paul Sally had brains on fire. Yes. That happened. Was it on fire? Probably bored. No, it was a fairly straightforward product demo. It wasn't complicated. Anyway, it kind of knocks the window of you, doesn't it? You're still, like you've experienced it before over the years. And, you know, I was fortunate in Rappet is enough to come up through the 1980s and the early 90s, where, you know, it was kind of expected as a woman. The older women in the business would say, oh, if they slap your bum, just don't worry about it. It's just what they do. No way. Yeah. Because it was so normal for them in the 70s that they just said, oh, just don't make a fuss. Don't be the one that makes a fuss. So there is, you know, really serious aspect to this. I mean, obviously, do you still see that? Have you still seen that? I don't anymore. No, I don't. And I think, you know, I do think a lot's changed. I think women just won't stand for it anymore. They're not scared anymore. And, you know, the systems are now supporting women. So, you know, if you do have any complaints, it's taken very seriously, whereas it's not that long ago, 20 years ago, wasn't, you know, it was like, oh, you say, you know, she's walking. And you've got sons as I do. I mean, do they have a different outlook now? Do you think than boys of that age years ago? Oh, absolutely. In fact, my oldest boys at university at the moment, and he said that it's, you know, there's a real point of anxiety for young men in his position, because, you know, it's very difficult to sort of say, use the right language around anyone. It's not just women. It's, it's, you've got to be careful about how you address gender and identity. And he said he's kind of in a state of anxiety most of the time, where he's terrified to open his mouth and because he, in case it says the wrong thing. And that's a shame, isn't it? We shouldn't vilify the, the, the, the male gender. And, or I feel it's just an education, but I do think we're being super sensitive for all the right reasons, because we do need to call things out. But I also am getting a little bit impatient with men who don't call things out either. So when things happen, give you an example. So did my TED talk not so long ago? That was great. So watch it, by the way. It's very good. Posted it online and I wasn't going to, it wasn't about meeting a TED talk, it was about the call to action, which is anybody could work in tech quite frankly. And I got a comment from a guy who I, who I knew in the past. And he said, love the dress. And okay, great, thank you very much. But the, the issue is here, if I was a guy, you wouldn't say, love the t-shirt, love the suit. Okay, you wouldn't say it. And what I'm annoyed about is I was making a point in that TED talk. I didn't do it to showcase my dress or my hair, which I did actually have done for the evening. Obviously. Obviously. Side the point. Yeah, exactly. And it was about the call to action. It was about why we should all be responsible and are all responsible for educating the younger generation on careers. And it pissed me off. And actually, I was more disappointed. But actually, one of my really good friends, who's a guy, rang me and said, "I really want to do something, I really want to say something, I said, "Go for it." And he did. And he got a response back from his guy saying, "Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with me saying it's a nice dress." Anyway, besides the point, he called it out and I was incredibly proud of him and pleased that he did that. I don't think enough men do for fear of being the one that sides with. I don't know, I don't know what it is, it's fear of fear of weakness, I don't know. What do you think about that? Yeah, I totally hear that. And also, sometimes, still men can laugh it off. Like, "Oh, for goodness sake, I didn't mean it's not taken seriously." Whereas, it just would be, as you said, if you turn it around and a woman commented on a guy and said, "Oh, nice suit." I wonder what that would be like, I don't know, I honestly don't know. It doesn't work the other way around. Unless you have a really small penis. Tight trousers. Maybe I should, yeah, totally. Maybe that's what I should have said. I know I have got a great dress, you have a small penis. I mean, I don't know, I don't know who knows. But outside of joking about it and trying to give back what we get, which is we can't, what could we do as leaders in our respective businesses? And as females in a tech, traditionally, male world, what can we do to think Sally, to try and help eradicate this issue? Well, obviously, a true meritocracy. I've got, well, diversity is a big thing right now. So, encouraging more women into tech is obviously really important. Or rather, just encouraging women it's not a male dominated world or it doesn't have to be. And like you said in your TED talk, there are so many, we should be hiring based on qualities and, you know, it's about bigger things than a qualification in tech, you know, BTEC in IT from college. It's much bigger than that because in any case, we don't know where the technology is going. You know, half a time, even the most qualified man isn't qualified in two years time because he still has to keep up his training and experience and everything else. So, it is about that much bigger view. We're currently hiring for positions that don't even exist yet. You know, we don't know how this business is going to go. So, what jobs are going to be there in five or ten years time? So, a true meritocracy is I think is the absolute first step where you're not hiring based on anything other than skills, attitude, and attitude fit into your culture, etc. Then I think the biggest problem and obviously this is something that's going to go away just naturally. There is a generation, massive generation problem in IT where, you know, sure, most of most people, 90% of people who worked in tech, 20 years ago were men. And, you know, if I think about CEOs that I've known throughout PR and everything else, obviously coming into contact with a lot of tech businesses, I think you are one of maybe four or five women that I've known. How did you respond in the end to this guy at the event? Like, did you kind of say, hello? I didn't, and actually all I do now is I sit tight and allow people to make the assessment that they want to make because it isn't really about me. It's about my colleague anyway because he's more on the product side. It's just disappointing because I'm not there to build my brand or say I've got a badge as a CEO and a founder. I just think it's sad that they don't treat you as equals. And it's not that they didn't, I didn't, wasn't expecting a huge amount of accolade for, oh wow, they see, yeah. It was more equally discussing the product with us rather than it just being directed at my colleague. So, but yeah, but likewise, how did you address the situation on the demo? I was so shocked that I kind of laughed. And it was only afterwards that I went, that was really out of order. Like, I should have said something. I should have called him out and gone, excuse me, you know, but I didn't. So, it's so ingrained in us, isn't it? You know, for me, I mean, I do call people out and stuff like that now, but you always think of the clever thing, obviously afterwards. Of course. Yeah, hindsight is a beautiful thing, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Anointingly. Anointingly. So, how do you think that's impacted you with that? I mean, do you think it makes you a little bit more tenacious as a woman in tech? So, you know, you're a little bit more determined or do you think you just kind of ignore it now, but you're incredibly receptive or aware of it for others? I think I'm more aware of it for others. For me, if I know I'm doing a good job, then I just don't think it should matter who I am or where I came from, like how I got here. So, I just have to kind of, I just live my life like that, you know, and I think, as, you know, I know what I've done and I know the experience that I have and what I bring to the role. So, yeah, I kind of, as you get older as well, I think it's easier to go, well, is their problem if they can't see that, you know, all they have to do is look at my results, then, you know, we just do it that way. Look at the work that goes in and how you get to where you have to be every day. And obviously, you're a great role model. So, people are going to look at you and say, well, wow, she's doing that and this is the way to conduct ourselves, which is excellent. Have you experienced men calling out? Do you encourage your sons or the men in the business to call things out if they're unhappy with them? Even if they're not about them, but about others. Yeah, absolutely. Just do the right thing. You know, if you see something that you know is not right, then you should definitely do the right thing and say something about it. I mean, you know, our culture is all about transparency and authenticity and good judgment and being in charge of who you are, autonomy, so, and being accountable. So, if you see something and you don't do something about it, then you're accountable for whatever bad stuff happens. Obviously that, aren't you? So, you know, and sure, you should good judgment. I mean, it's not about, well, everything, everything, all the little things matter. But, you know, as we've seen, I suppose, we're in difficult times as well at the moment because of the woke culture. There's an awful lot of good stuff that's come out of that. There's a lot of conversations that happen that didn't happen for a long time. And so, it's all good. However, it's very easy to start jumping on every single moment. And, you know, and there was a fantastic Tracy Almond sketch. I don't know if you ever saw it about, you know, she's, she's hoped fun at this very thing way, you know, even a hot knob could be read as a racist biscuit. If you look at it the wrong way, and I think there is an element of just, just, yeah, if it's too much noise like that, then the really important things get missed. So, it is about using good judgment about when to say things and when to just sort of go, oh, for goodness sake, you know, he's retiring in two years anyway. So, how much influence is he going to have on the industry, you know? But even so, I think it's, yeah, it's still worth saying something isn't it all the time, just to create that point of zero tolerance more than anything, not to embarrass anybody, but just to set it straight. Just to set it straight, exactly, just, you know, it's not okay, you can't say that. I think focusing on how we are as a business and the young people coming in, I think that's the future isn't it? So, and if you create a culture of zero tolerance to anything like that, you know, a real meritocracy where nobody is raised above anybody else for any other reason than what they do and their performance and how they conduct themselves, then you are automatically to starting to solve the problem. We just need all the businesses to do that. Yeah. Exactly. One final theory question before I move on to a quick fire, three questions which you're fine. Authenticity. So, we talk about that all the time. I don't think I was ever happy being authentically me until probably the last five years, and I don't mean to say I've lived a different life in all of a sudden I know me. I think that you have so many influences and so many expectations on you to be a particular way, not just as a woman by the way, I'm talking about anybody and business and otherwise, I think it's because we're all fearful of judgment. What's your take on that? Because obviously you've been through so many different changes from ballet, dancer to media, to to tech career, to mum, to, you know, all of those roles that we play. What's your take on authenticity and how easy do you think it is to be truly authentic? Well, I think in many ways that's all I've had. So, you know, because I've changed so much, so much during my career and how to sort of put myself into these different roles, I always had sort of heart on my sleeve if you like, approach to that because I did feel like everything I've gone for, every new opportunity into a new industry or whatever. I've had to sort of dig deep and go right, is this really something that I can do? Like the first one I got the job on the magazines for the free sheets for the independent, it was through a marketing agency and they were outsourcing all their stuff and I had done a bit of writing and I really wanted this job. I wanted it so much, it was such a huge thing for me to be able to write and, you know, and be sent out and actually properly write things. I was so excited about it but I was terrified of it as well thinking you know it's simple swim they're going to know by the first edition whether or not I can really do this and I think I can I don't really know so I had to just be really open and even the language of the sort of magazine publications I was used to TV so you know language I had to be really honest and just say sorry what is it what is a DPS I've never heard that before yeah do it so I suppose there's always been an element of if anything once I got into the real corporate world I was worried that I was too authentic it's like do I do I give away too much you know should I should I have a bit of a mask and should I play more like a corporate veneer yeah and I just found that I couldn't do that I couldn't you know and sometimes sometimes it did land me not in hot water but sometimes I found myself you know going I probably need a bit more of a filter yeah I think there is there is an element of filter but I think you should never stop being yourself I think that's brilliant that you run by that because I think I always remember my grandfather God rest his soul and who's a Jordi said the hardest thing to be in life is yourself and he's right and I was like oh I was about eight years old don't get it don't you talking about I still felt I still felt the fear of judgment absolutely and the fear of oh imposter syndrome wow because that's one thing that comes with flipping between the industries is I don't really know this yet and I'm always a learner I'm always new I'm always the new bee I'm always the one that doesn't quite fit I haven't got quite the qualifications for that role or this role so I'm just going to have to kind of take what I have and rub off that edge and but that served you well though didn't it you use that as a driver I think adaptability yeah and yeah being able to change and chop and change yeah sort of became my thing really yeah I love it so so yeah bro right quick five one of the venture yes first who inspires you the most who inspires me the most well incredible writers always inspire me so you've got a favourite yes well a few actually Margaret Atwood has got to be my favourite well her and ampatcher I think is a toss up between the two in terms of novel writers the way that they convey a world through words I just find it's I think to me that is just like alchemy you know it's incredible I love that but then also people like Richard Dawkins went to see him give a talk and we went to see him live in London took my kids along as well because I just thought if you get a chance to see this man you have to see him yeah incredible man and also very humble and I think that was what inspires me about him is that this he's got this incredible brain and this eagerness to learn always he's always thirsty for knowledge and so humble with with what he I mean he's a professor emeritus at Cambridge you know he and yet he is so kind of well I don't I don't really know that much and I just think that's a wonderful way to be because we're only here for a living and who actually knows anything and so understanding that the person in the room next to you it doesn't matter who they what persona they put over they also feel insecure and I think it is a very humanising leveling thing to think about people like that who else well Emily and Pankhurst obviously another one Manchester last we love her yes so second question what advice would you give to your younger self go back to you ballet dancer Sally what would advice now would you give yourself at that age stop sweating the small stuff however hard you think you're working you can always work harder don't don't give in even though it seems like perhaps I didn't give in I could have I could have not given in more you know they're so other other people I admire it brings me back so there are other ballet dancers now Marianne L'Anunia is who's in her 40 she's just turned 40 and she's still a principal with the Royal Ballet Company and you know just just seeing the the way that her body and career and artistry is evolved over the years and I just think gosh you know incredible so yeah I would definitely go back to myself and say yeah don't don't sweat the small stuff and I think also yeah just be braver I think I think you've been very brave Sally very brave I felt I felt really nervous and scared and small a lot of the time and I just think you know never let anyone make you I think that's your superpower though I think I think super part I think anybody who feels slightly out of their debt is a is a super is a super power to drain to use I think anyway and finally fun fun fun one favorite pub snack I'm a big nuts I'm a big salty nuts fan so is it Chris nuts or olives I love them all in fact I have been known to go to the pub with my brother and make scooby snacks at all three so depends on the day do you know what I think it's a seasonal thing I think olives are definitely for the summer and nuts are for like a real stormy winter night like you said with a pint of whenever you're sure tipple crisps any day any time any day always a crisp I think they're winning my hard cat snack off and Chris I'm sure he's so much choice now with Chris I mean you can literally have anything I know good point it's not even an absolute dream of a guest on our podcast and it's been really interested to chat to you could chat so much more and thank you so much good luck with everything you do it HQ and I will run into you I'm sure very very soon you must have over some Chris to be