Speaker 1Dylan Field, welcome to the All In interview.
Speaker 2Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1We are here in beautiful Napa, Yonville, California.
Speaker 2Yeah, you're three drinks in.
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Speaker 2I was for this event that you're going to be at tomorrow as well. I'm at an event tomorrow. Same event. And we were basically talking about design, product development. I snuck in a little bit of security. Thought that'd be nice. But overall, a lot about just like how product development is evolving. And my point of view, the thing you'd expect me to say too, is that design is the new code. And what's happening right now is as coding models get better, I'm not saying that you don't need engineers. We definitely need engineers at Figma. We love our engineers. But also the nature of programming is changing. And as it changes, the value is rising in terms of differentiation. That's design, that's brand, it's marketing, it's point of view, it's being bold. And it's like the emotional reaction you're able to elicit. And I think that a lot of people are missing that. We also talked a lot about like AI and just kind of like. Okay, so you did a thing on stage today. You talked with Nikesh. Yeah, sorry, I was recapping an interview here, sorry.
Speaker 1Yeah, no, it's great. Like, it's good. Like, we can fast forward, but I want to back up. You're the CEO of Figma, publicly traded. Maybe you can just give the quick elevator pitch on Figma. And when did you start the business?
Speaker 2Yeah, we started Figma back in August 2012. And the quick pitch is this is where we want to make it so that the best teams in the world can design and create and build the world's best software. We're also used for all sorts of stuff. So marketing, advertising, slides, whiteboarding, diagramming, you know, you name it. Like, if it's visual at all, someone's probably doing it in Figma. Yeah. Even if it's not meant for that.
Speaker 1People call it a design software. Is that a fair characterization? Or does it not capture the full spectrum of what the service is?
Speaker 2No, I think that design is really our center and our core. And like, when I'm in a product review and talking with the team, we talk about designers, we talk about what they want. Design is also a term that's, like, so interesting because there's like a hundred definitions of design. Right. I think about a lot of. A lot about the definition of, like, it's maybe creativity meets problem solving. But there's, like, so many others you can find. And then also design can refer to everything from interior to industrial to product design to brand design and so on. And so people think about a lot of things when they think about design.
Speaker 1Just to get caught up on the history of the business. You started in 2012. You raised some venture money. The business takes off. You're selling enterprise software. You're doing really well. And then Adobe offers to buy the business for. $20 billion.
Speaker 2Yeah, correct. Quite the fast forward. What year was that? It was a few years back now.
Speaker 1I'm skipping through literally building the business.
Speaker 2Yeah, you're like, you know, 10, 11 years in. But no, I mean, we have always respected Adobe. Still do. And I mean, a generational, incredible company that, like, started everything from printing to making Photoshop what it is. And, like, the entire graphic design revolution.
Speaker 1By the way, I was on Adobe Photoshop. And since 1990, I did graphic design. Wow, so you were pre-layers? Actually, you and I haven't talked about this. Were you pre-layers? Yes. So I did graphic design pre-layers as a kid on computers. And I did it as, like, a service for, like, people in the neighborhood and small businesses and stuff.
Speaker 2So cool. So how did you get access to it?
Speaker 1I was, like, at my school. And then I had. Well, I was on a Macintosh. I got the first Mac original in 1984. And I was always fascinated with graphic design. It was, like, something I loved doing. It was literally a hobby. You and I actually never talked about this. And then I used, like, Bryce 3D and all these early 3D tools. And then when Kai's Power Tools came out.
Speaker 2Kai's Power Tools is really cool.
Speaker 1It reinvented Adobe Photoshop. And for me, it was, like, this incredible, like, expansion of creative potential and what you could do with Photoshop. So I've been a big Photoshop fan since the earliest days and a big user as a personal hobby. And, like, I made money on the side doing graphic design and stuff as a kid.
Speaker 2Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Photoshop, of course, is, like, a product. It's a product that is very mature and maybe beyond mature, too, in that it has so many different parts of it that have been added over the years, which I think is the nature of a lot of software. It gets more bloated over time if you're not careful. But there's just so much that's possible with it. And, you know, Adobe as a company has been very inventive. So I've always had respect since I was a kid, too. Totally. And it felt like it was a time when, you know, we could join and not be totally absorbed. if we were smaller, I felt like maybe we would just kind of dissipate. And yeah, we signed the agreement. We said yes. And then various world governments decided that they didn't like it.
Speaker 1Right. So like antitrust got involved and they blocked the deal.
Speaker 2Yeah. I mean, antitrust is kind of like a broad way to refer to it. But you have the United States, European Union, CMA. And, you know, it's a very different vibe a few years ago than today.
Speaker 1Adobe would be taking out a big competitor.
Speaker 2They said a lot of things. But I think the most important part for us was that we just kept putting our foot in the gas. I mean, I thought it would be like sort of we would just go right through. And as soon as a month or two in, it was clear that was not the case. Yeah. It kind of became, OK, like we got to like really power through as an organization here and ship and build like the next stuff. Yeah. Because if we don't power through and keep our foot on the gas, you know, what's another side? We don't know what's another side. We got to make sure everything's fine no matter what.
Speaker 1So this is 2023. How many employees did you have?
Speaker 2I want to say it was about 1,100, 1,200 after triple check.
Speaker 1OK, so when I heard this story, I was fascinated by and I think I saw you in 2024, March of 24. I don't know if you remember. I mentioned this to you. But for me, the story of telling 1,200 employees of a startup, we have one of the most incredible exits in history. It's a $20 billion exit of this company and it's not going to happen. What was the all hands like when you get in front of everyone and you tell everyone, guys, this isn't going to happen? And how do you get everyone to realign on building a business and continuing forward when it feels like the floor for some people may have felt like the floor fell out from under them?
Speaker 2Well, I think you have to remember the length of the regulatory review, which definitely needs to be fixed. Somehow, because it's, you know, if you're in a situation where it's actually anti-competitive, which I don't, I still don't believe that everything was for what it's worth. A lot of people, you know, on the Internet probably would say it is like, or at least they did back then. But I thought their arguments were poor and they were fighting past battles, not looking at the future and what this all would become. But the and I say that not because I'm not like I'm stoked to be independent, too. I'm stoked to be running Figma. That was the plan for Adobe was just run Figma. Either way, running Figma, I'm happy. Independently, we do move fast. I'm glad I'm grateful for that. But going back to your question, it's like we had 16 months of regulatory review, 16 months of regulatory review for any company is punishing. And in an actual anti-competitive situation, that could be like very destructive for one of the parties or both. And I think Roomba is a great. For example, actually, Roomba was going to be acquired. Small deal. Yeah, it wasn't like a crazy deal. Yeah. But they want to punish Amazon. And so they did not let it go through. And because of that, Roomba went bankrupt and the entire market at the time basically went to China. So from the United States standpoint, it made no sense. Right. Anyway, I go on a tangent, but I do think it's an important point. And there's some policy stuff here. It's like when you go for the ideals, idealism, it doesn't always practically like help America.
Speaker 1But it's also an important point, which is almost all markets now are more expansive than they have been historically. And nearly anything that looks like, oh, it's the market. That's not actually the market. The market is AI. Yeah, I mean, exactly. The market is this massive market. And this deal is 1% and 0.2% of the market.
Speaker 2Yeah, it's like do you define the market looking back at the history, which is like the only logical way you do it as a regulator? Or do you do it? As a technologist looking forward, and that could be very different in terms of how you think about markets, about sizes. But in any case, the all hands, it was actually the first day of a winter break, which is pretty funny. So we had told everybody, OK, you know, enjoy the holidays. We actually have way less traffic during the holidays because we're a work product. And that was a Friday. And then rewatched. I realized sort of over the weekend, okay, is going to come to a conclusion and on monday morning uh sent a message to everybody saying hey all hands at noon and dial in if you like and here's what's going on and here's like the full sort of details and so first of all so much the company showed up that was awesome just to see the turnout you know first day of break really and secondly i'd say just like the mood was relief because it wasn't about relief of not adobe it was relief of not having ambiguity to have ambiguity that long is really intense and people have to kind of have two worlds in their head they're not exactly sure the future holds so that was the immediate mood it was just kind of like lighter and then from there uh yeah i think that the question you asked is right how do you make sure everyone's all in and the way that we did it was we said look i just kind of put a video out into the company slack and email everybody and said hey if you're tired after working really hard if you're someone who joined during this period thinking you're going to go work at adobe and actually the startup thing is not for you like please know we're going to be working very hard hustling hard and know shame like we're still on good terms if you want to leave here is a few months pay uh and you're welcome to just let us know we'll make it super easy and from there uh you know six months before you can reapply that's the only condition uh after six months you can reapply and we'll re-interview you and it was a pretty small percentage of people that took us up on that but overall it was healthy and some people actually ended up doing total career pivots like in wild ways uh went on different life paths like i think it's healthy for everyone you
Speaker 1continue to build the business it grows you go public and i just want to fast forward to earlier this year you guys announced a partnership with anthropic claude design oh we not
Speaker 2quite we we had been working with anthropic as a partner and anthropic uh separately announced cloud design yes oh sorry yeah
Speaker 1that's right but you had a connector with them that you announced earlier
Speaker 2in the year yeah we have an mcp we are partnered with many
Speaker 1companies but then then they announced claude design was that surprising to you when they did that and how worried were you when they came out with claude design relative to what you guys were offering because the market looked at it and said oh my god figma's dead claude is going to crush
Speaker 2figma i mean the nature of online discourse right now is that you're going to crush figma and you're going to crush him because uh we're so back it's so over and it's just a cycle right i mean how many times have you been all over yeah in the last like month yes probably yeah you know a bunch of times i don't even know about yes and everyone i think i was kind of used to that at that point right because you know you when when you kind of die uh so many times and then you're actually like not dead right you kind of realize at some point maybe maybe this is like not the truth social media is actually like not reality but um yeah i i uh was overall surprised at the way that kind of communication happened uh i think that you know look everybody wants to do good usually i mean there's some exceptions but for the most part that's that's what i assume for people they want to win they want to do good and i think that organizations scaling really fast anthropic like are there any examples of organizations scaling that fast ever never can get very confused and um mixed up internally and due to that weird stuff can happen and i think that it's just the case that yeah we're on the other side of kind of like a weird bout of uh communication there and did it affect your business oh no uh like not that not any degree that was like you know significant or something like that but i think that's just the case that's
Speaker 1because i read your quarterly report after that announcement you guys grew 48 year over year and the business basically accelerated its growth so i'm looking at that and i'm you know this was when everyone had the saspocalypse thesis in general and i was a big subscriber to saspocalypse but i do think that there's a bunch of ways to distinguish sas companies one of which i think is founder-led and i think that there's user experience that matters a lot embedded user experience and the ability to kind of build from there and i think that's a big part of that especially if you know how to use ai to accelerate and reinvent your business as a founder particularly but your business
Speaker 2accelerated yep um no it's been continue to do well and i think that look the hard part about model companies and product is like what is the product is it the model is it the ui on top is it some hybrid of both if it's a hybrid how is it weighted and uh in any case you're talking about
Speaker 1like an anthropic and open ai yeah i mean gemini like
Speaker 2whether it's a harness for coding or it's a uh product like cloud design which you just mentioned i think it's easy to mistake model progress for product progress right the reality is a tool like figma you know it has taken a very long time to build uh in a very long time to make sure that we get the workflows right for our users and we still have work to do our users will tell you that uh and i and we're always trying to make it better so i think that like it's it's sort of um not surprising that it wasn't an instant hit or something when there's actually quite a lot of work on the just core user journey workflow side that you have to do to meet the needs of professionals now they're uh they've made cloud design into a product that is is broad so it's trying to do a lot of things like you'll see like posters and stuff as well like graphic design scenarios i believe when you're doing their home page and and like maybe they'll do well in some areas and on other areas like i'm not bullish or bearish on the product i think it's just like hard to make good design tools
Speaker 1professionals yeah there's a lot of things to design and yeah and also categories of design
Speaker 2the feel of it is like an instrument you have to get the feel right you have to get mechanics right yeah and we've stressed every detail of that and have had a lot of feedback over the years about what people like and don't like it depends on where they're coming from it depends on uh their task and sort of like what they're doing and what they're doing and what they're doing and what they're trying to overall do and there's so many scenarios but overall uh you know i think that um there are more modes for software than are implied by the saspocalypse and it's not like software as a category is binary good or bad uh there are plenty of other ways that you can make sure that you're able to sustain yourself long term and you have a growing business long term as a software company or app player company uh and part of it is yes if you're as specialized as possible on a target audience and you know your audience and you're building for them that is something that matters right uh and i think a great example of this is cursor um cursor like by all means should not have grown the way they did you've got all these frontier labs that are chasing them with their own models before cursor had a model of any kind but yet cursor really obsessed over the user they saw around corners they strategized they made sure they're doing the right thing for the customer and they've had an incredible success yeah and i i think it's amazing and i think it's an example that will be repeated uh across many different types of companies sass is not dead well i i think that it's not true that all sass companies are fine yeah and it's also not true that all sass companies are dead fair enough
Speaker 1i'm going all in protecting nature is often labeled anti-growth the conservation fund disagrees they believe protecting land wildlife and outdoor access goes hand in hand with economic opportunity for 40 years they've moved with market speed to protect at-risk land while supporting local communities with nine million acres protected across all 50 states the conservation fund is proving that they deliver lasting outcomes that benefit communities and nature in a world of ai agentic ai i have this capacity to prompt as a human and say i want to make something that looks like feels like and does x and this magical technology takes off and does it and i end up with a product sometimes the product is great sometimes the product sucks but it's improving the ability for these tools to do that historically i would have needed a product manager a designer a bunch of engineers to do the actual building of the product whether it's a software product or a hardware product increasingly though it seems like ai is doing more and more of those tools can you just give me your view on the future of human creativity in this era this future era that we're waltzing into the singularity we're falling into where does human creativity play a role and where do the gaps still need to be filled for taking human creativity to the realization
Speaker 2moment it's the case i think that uh we're lowering the floor with ai making it so that all of the production whether it's code or it's uh motion video design whatever you name it uh if it's digital you're lowering the floor to make it happen um everyone can be part of that and it's more democratized ironically and i i used to believe uh even a few years ago i said it our annual user conference config i said the ceiling will be raised by ai you'll be able to do greater things before that was wrong uh the ceiling has stayed the same ai is not raising the ceiling humans are using the ceiling though uh the creatives the designers out there when they choose to focus invest their time and to be bold and try to do something no one else has ever done before that's when we see the ceiling raised and at that point uh it's a question of do you care about being in the center distribution do you care about like a mean or average result uh is that sufficient for your task or do you need something that shows that you care that you took the time to actually like go make this thing do you need to go and be beyond uh what is the minimum bar and in the world of software design and product i mean we're seeing exponentially more software than ever before it's exactly what you'd predict the exponential continues uh you look at app store numbers the app store numbers are exactly that same exponential and we're seeing that the usage and utilization of apps flat so people are using just the same amount of apps and they're using the same amount of apps and they're using the same amount of apps but the amount of apps that you can get it's like bigger than ever and growing and i think it just speaks to okay there's a need to differentiate yourself if you're building any kind of software well how do you do that it's not code because anyone can create code now that's not the hard part anymore so my view is design is the new code it's the layer above you have to make it so that your design is differentiated and you have to have a point of view and a good brand and marketing and the point of view i think is the part that is probably missed the most that's the human part it's not just the human part it's also the part that humans are uncomfortable having uh i think that folks are scared to say something that's not consensus it's so true
Speaker 1i mean this is what the greatest artists the greatest business leaders the greatest politicians have always demonstrated is the willingness to to be brave to say and do the things that no one else would say or do and that's what we're seeing right now and i think that's what we're seeing right now changes the world and i
Speaker 2would also add comedians to the mix too comedians comedians are
Speaker 1underappreciated i had tony hinchcliffe at our thing last year because he's like one of the few guys that is willing to say and do things nowadays in the cancel culture
Speaker 2era but comedians often like speak truth in a way that people otherwise couldn't hear willing to say things and uh it's not about political correctness it's about do you have a message that can rise above the noise and do so in a sustained way because look at social media right now like every unique point of view everything interesting gets diffused into like the ether of social media instantly and so unless you've got uh something that allows you to kind of keep generating content and a message that is really uh evergreen because it's so outside of the over 10 window you're not going to be able to actually break through and have any attention and the attention economy is
Speaker 1ruthless is this also what human creativity is if you're not doing something that's never been done before you're not creating something you're mimicking something you're copying something you're xeroxing something but to do something new is to create and newness requires doing things that have never been done yeah by definition by
Speaker 2definition and uh therefore you are operating outside of this distribution of training it's not even about operating outside the mean of the distribution which is where you start if you're just prompting without any like any kind of advanced scaffolding around it but you're actually doing something that is breaking through and it's unique and i do think that will be rewarded by the market everyone's going to see it i think it's even rewarded by the attention market of organizations i'm already hearing from so many like oh i got another deck made by ai today totally and i don't even know if the person who made it i like don't know if they read it do they even know what's in their deck and at figma we actually made it so that uh it was just a simple thing but we said hey if you are uh using ai in your writing of any kind just put at the top written with ai very simple very easy to follow uh and you know people made jokes about internally but people do it and it makes it so that we can all trust that when we see something we know that it's been cared for enough that it's like worth your time to process and i uh i think that we're going to see some bifurcation here around trust uh and one way to get trust is to do something with your hands the other point that's important is if you have a vision or if you have a point of view in your head of how something should be designed or look aesthetically or from an experiential standpoint you're i think it's great to start with building with ai it gives you something to get past like the blank page blank canvas problem you can then react to it and say here are all the things i don't like i'm gonna i'm gonna go fix these things i'm gonna change them up because it's really helpful to have a back and forth but if you don't if you have your own vision and you're trusting ai to implement it you're doing it through the lens of ai and like ai has kind of like its own distribution the
Speaker 1model fit by it yeah yeah and so you're
Speaker 2not going to get exactly what you want now if you're able to do both and you're not going to get exactly what you want now if you're able to do both and you're not going to get exactly what you want now if you're able to do both and you're not going to that's what we're trying to enable in figma make code of material on the canvas make it so that you can go start by building you can build to think if you like but also when you want to think and work with your hands you can do that too right and go back and forth
Speaker 1rapidly right i remember the early days of photoshop just having been a user avid user from the early days people freaked out when layers happened and then they freaked out when all the filters came out and when kai's power tools came out and everyone was like what's the role of the photographer anymore it's like you're destroying the art of photography the creativity of photography but it unleashed a new era of creativity because now these new artists emerged that could use these filters and use these layering tools and capabilities to reimagine what's possible on a canvas and it was basically a new toolkit it doesn't mean that the old creatives mapped perfectly to the new creative system and tools but there was an explosion in creativity and human potential that arose from this and we pushed boundaries in all sorts of ways it feels like we might be entering that era
Speaker 2again i'm a big believer in that and i think that part of it is what i described about market dynamics in order to get attention or to get engagement or to get people to care you have to do something new uh you have to actually be daring and try things that are bold the resistance to change is real and there's a great thing you can google actually per your point look up the mailing list for when layers was introduced and it's like people going this is the worst thing ever uh and you can find it if you google it's like on a mailing list that's publicly available and you can see all the reactions um but obviously it became the future and i think that uh there's also still photographers in the world who are doing incredible work but the bigger disruption if we're going to be real it was the camera phone uh that was what made it so that people stopped buying cameras that were dedicated to the task of photography because the best camera is the one that's on you and started treating photography a different way with instagram and their camera phone uh so it transformed for a lot of people and i can't tell you if it's better or worse as a result but there was change there's one
Speaker 1view on human creativity that human creativity is basically connecting dots in the unconscious that you've had seen or experienced all of these things in your life or in your set of inputs sensory inputs and from those inputs you connect dots and then you extrapolate a forward view of things that hasn't perhaps been seen in the world before do you agree with that view on creativity and is it distinct from actually what ai does and again i want to go back to the uniqueness of the human in an
Speaker 2ai era well i i think that um one thing that happens with humans is they're always seeking novelty like our reward function is different than like an ai is also our loss function like if i was to open this bottle of water and splash it all over you and you got bad at me like you bet i'm not gonna do that again but an ai like you know with rl you got like really tell it a bunch of times uh uh that no you don't do that um robot stop kicking me yeah well and maybe that'll change with architectures over time but But overall, the brain is different than the current systems that we've made with AI. And I think that it's unknown. We don't know much about neuroscience overall. I'd love to get to the point where we all know more about neuroscience, but something is fundamentally different there when it comes to creativity. And I also think design is different than creativity. It's not just creativity. It's also problem solving, like I mentioned earlier. And the combination of the two is I just find it fascinating because you have a user, you're trying to solve their needs, you're trying to do so in a way that stands out as creative and it connects with them. And also, you have to connect to wider systems, the marketing brand, the culture, the business problems, and so on. And holding all that in your head at different levels of abstraction. While trying to deliver a screen or a flow that, from a search-based standpoint, can be a combinatorial explosion is just pretty cool. It's pretty fascinating.
Speaker 1I'm actually personally really excited about the idea of reinventing existing art form and media where AI can enable more dynamic generation, where the creator steps up a level, sets a bunch of parameters, but doesn't actually necessarily render the final product. But the final product, sort of like in a video game. It's rendered on the fly with the user in front of it. But the creator, the creative team behind a video game, for example, is building all of the object. They're building the storyline. They're building the narrative flow. And the realization of that is much more dynamic, but I feel like it's going to find its way. It's going to leach its way into many more totally different media.
Speaker 2And we have products around that too. Like in figment design, you can have generative tools and shaders where you can do very much that. Or we have a product called Weave. And Weave is basically a node-based system. You can connect model outputs into other inputs and such. And the whole idea is, like, it's not bad to generate with AI, but you need a way to craft that clay. You need a way to mold it. And with Weave, people do, like, the most amazing video and photo work. And overall, just, like, the outcomes that are achievable with it are incredible. So, yeah, I think that if you've got the intention, if you actually care to do the work, you can always get to a better result. And people, you know, new model drops. There's, like, this AI psychosis moment that people are in for a few days. And it's, like, I think also aided by algo feeds. Totally. The best results rise to the top. Everyone's like, this model is everything. Yeah. And then a few days later, it's okay, okay. I know the kind of, like, main tropes of the model. And you adapt fast. Like, the novelty's gone. It no longer is a thing that's kind of, like, rewarding you or firing off your dopamine system or whatever. And instead, you're like, okay, well, yeah, it always does that thing. How do I move past it? And that seems to be the continued loop we're in, which is sort of fascinating because models keep getting so good when it comes to these formal domains. Math, cybersecurity, IQ points, just all of that. Just stack and stack and stack. And then for creativity and for design, it's very incremental progress overall. Maybe that will change at some point. But I think the fact that these are nonverifiable domains has something to do with it.
Speaker 1And it's probably the fact that maybe that is the human role in the AI toolkit, which is conceive, create, design, and let the AI do more of the work. But it gives you the ability. Any art or media that you're particularly excited about or interested in that's kind of emerging right now?
Speaker 2You know, I find it fascinating when people do sort of, like, new AI experiments. For example, this is the media category. There was a designer artist type that made a web page the other day. And it was, like, a letter to Figma. So it caught my attention because I was, you know, getting the Figma hit on the algo feed. And every time you moved away from it and came back, it got slightly more degraded. And it was basically a comment on attention. I thought that was really cool. Oh, cool. That was a piece of art. I thought so. It was a web page. Yeah. But, like, I thought that the technique and the way that they went about it was really neat. And, like. Not something that many others have done. I've seen a few other things like that. But overall, I thought it was a very cool way to do it. It was also just a very well-written letter. I like the letter, too. But, yeah, I see stuff like this. And, you know, back in the day, I remember seeing people do, like, NFT art with AI when NFTs were a thing. You know, so. Yeah. It was, like, 2019 or something like that. But the way they did it sometimes was really remarkable. I mean, Holly Herndon's work around taking her voice and making it so that her voice was something that people could use in an almost open-source way, that was quite incredible and ahead of its time. And I think this, like, sort of play between what is me, what is the collective, and what is it that is unique and ownable versus what is not. And I think this, like, sort of play between what is me, what is it that is unique and ownable versus what is not. Where things that we can't imagine are possible and things we take for granted are no longer in sort of the realm of what humans do every day. How exactly that will look, I don't think either of us can tell. But it is the case that both were under the precipice of great change and nothing hit home for me more than the math drop last night from OpenAI of 700 plus papers on all sorts of very famous problems.
Speaker 1Where things that we can't imagine are brighter and wider and more accessible than they've ever been. So I'm pretty excited. Oh, I'm excited too.
Speaker 2And I think that the world will look amazing and I'm an optimist. Yeah. I think there's going to be a lot of challenges and we'll figure them out. Yeah. How exactly and what the challenges will be in their full form, we have yet to see. But, yeah, I do think that, like, math is something that somehow has a quality of mystery to it. Like an unsolved problem. Like, is it, you know, is this conjecture true or false? How? Why? Grappling with that mystery is something that is special. And I'm both. excited for the progress and like all the things they'll make possible and also like i don't think it's wrong to like mourn the loss of a little mystery
Speaker 1right fair enough dylan this has been a great chat should we go have another
Speaker 2drink sounds good let's do it thanks man thanks ©
Speaker 3BF-WATCH TV 2021
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