Dvrgnt Adventures, with B. Pagels-Minor

In American society, money is a taboo topic. We're taught at a young age, it's improper to talk about it, but we're also bombarded with messages about the power and importance of money in our everyday lives. And by not talking about it, we miss out on the skills and lessons we need to effectively understand and financially plan. That changes today. Welcome to Money Tales. Hosted by Sandy Breger and Cammy Doater, Money Tales brings more than 35 years of combined professional experience and personal finance to demystify money and demonstrate what it's like to speak openly about personal financial matters. Join us each episode as they interview modern day movers and shakers about how money decisions intertwine with their daily lives in order to give you better insight into productive financial conversations. Subscribe today and register for our blog Fathom at asperient.com/podcasts to increase your money mojo. And now here's Cammy and Sandy. This episode of Money Tales explores the power of leveraging your background, experience, and identity to create opportunities for both you and your community. Bee Pagel's minor is our featured guest. Bee graduated college in 2008 and quickly landed a lucrative consulting job. But when the economy crashed, Bee ended up working as a breeze-ta and then a store manager at Target. They started the role of Target with a lot of confidence. Bee quickly learned that leadership isn't about being the smartest. It's about earning your team's respect. If the team doesn't follow you, it's you who will go. After Target, Bee faced multiple near-disasters while experimenting with different roles and companies, trying to find what best suited their skills. This mindset of trial and error proved vital in navigating their career journey. Let me tell you more about Bee. They are founder of Divergent Ventures, a pre-seed and seed fund focusing on tech-enabled startups in the most economically and culturally diverse regions of Middle America, or what they call the Great 38. As an executive coach, they've helped organizations achieve product market fit with a focus on product culture. Bee has helped elevate meaningful conversations on diversity and inclusion as a podcast host and international keynote speaker. Their numerous accolades, including recognition as a queer 50 and LGBTQ nation hero of the year, serve as a testament to their unwavering dedication to making the world a better place. Here are three key money topics Bee hits on in this conversation. First, why they co-created wealth salons to have forums for people of color, the LGBTQ+ community and women to get talking, networking and creating community. The salons allow participants to further develop their leadership skills and seek opportunities that they may not have otherwise realized were available to them. Second, how Bee has used gamification as a method to shift personal money habits they wanted to change, and third, the importance of achieving safety in life when it comes to financial resources, health and relationships. Bee shares how they somewhat ironically are comfortable taking risks in order to achieve safety. We hope you share this episode with a friend and please subscribe to Money Tales on your favorite podcast platform. Now onto our conversation with Bee Pagels Minor. Welcome to the Money Tales podcast. I'm Kami Doder. And I'm Sandy Breaker. Sandy, I got a question for you. What have you spent money on that you have a high degree of regret? Oh, I know exactly the answer. What is it? I have to take you all the way back to high school. I was working in the mall and I worked with this woman who was a costume designer and it was prom season. And I thought, wouldn't it be cool to have my own unique prom dress that no one else in the world owned? So I asked her to make one for me and I had never seen her work. And she showed me a little sketch. She asked me about colors. And this is the 80s of big dresses, big everything. I did not get a big dress. I got a peach shiny, really close to the body. Bragg. It was awful. It was disgusting. It was $150 of my money. Oh, man. I can't remember. I think I was Mickey. Maybe $4 or $6 an hour where it was terrible. It's a lot of hours. And I just felt so embarrassed because I was telling everybody how excited I was about this investment I was making. Then I went home and cried and I'm like, well, I need to dress. So she took pity on me. She made me pay for the dress I didn't wear, but she did take me out dress shopping. To this day, I still cringe because it just seemed like so much money that I was throwing away. I had a smart and form shopper. Oh, Sandy. What about you, Camille? Do you have a regret? I do. Sandy, mine's very current. We've been living in this house for now. Gosh, eight years. And we never had nice lighting in our living room. It's set up perfectly for like a chandelier, something hanging from the ceiling. And I also know I have a tendency to look a lot. And actually my brother-in-law says, "Doters visit furniture," meaning we keep going to the shop and like check it out. And I mean, literally, I will measure it and we'll blue tape this location and make sure it all looks good. But this time I'm going to prove Michael. I can do this. I'll go online and I see a great chandelier and Roland really likes it. We buy it. I don't go look at it at our age. So it's expensive. But I'm so proud of myself. I'm going for it. It shows up. It's beautiful. Oh, I'm so happy. Good job. It gets hung up. And next you know, I realize I don't know you're supposed to understand lumens. You know what lumens, that's? I don't know lumens. Lumens is the amount of light that emanates from it. And let me say once you hang a chandelier, you're not allowed to return to the thing. And it's expensive. Oh my gosh. It doesn't light up any room. It's ridiculous. I am so frustrated. I even called our age and said, come on, you have to take this back. This is awful. Sorry. We can. The wire's been cut. Oh no. Couldn't you be hearing you have an electrician rewire it? Be one would think. But it's for the fire safety. The bulbs are in the design. It's so ridiculous. I want to share a picture with you all. Who designed a light fixture that doesn't produce light? I didn't ever thought to ask about lumens. Anyway, I'm getting animated. I think the moral of today's story so far is being an informed shopper. Being an informed shopper. Don't commit unless you know exactly what you're buying. Go back to being a doater who goes and visits furniture. Well, B, we heard from you and it's so wonderful. I'd like to welcome you more formally. B Pagels minor, it's fantastic to be talking with you today on many tales. I was trying to not interrupt, but y'all are hilarious. I just have to ask this question because I too have bought a standard type of situation and lived to regret it. Mostly because my wife is six feet tall and you didn't realize how short it was going to be. So I was like, please, babe, don't knock yourself out. Did you've done this? Yes. Somehow they made it work. It was one of those that you could actually shorten it. We brought in someone who actually really understood something and it made it work in that place. B, would you introduce yourself? And in doing so, would you share a couple pivotal moments that really influenced who you are today? My name is B Pagels minor. My pronouns are they, them, theirs. I am a proud, trans, non-binary, lesbian. I'd love to go that out there. I'm on the record saying that y'all have to take that title from my cold dead hands because I earned that one first. I am a proud southerner who has somehow landed in Los Angeles. I'm also proud Wildcat at Northwestern University Purple Pride through and through. And being in Northwestern actually during the last economic crisis would be one first to the moment that I would talk about. For me, it's always been very fascinating because my dad is this Harvard-indicated, EHD, Dr. Reverend, Michael Minor, he has all of that stuff. But my mom graduated from college, literally a month before I did. So she had been going and going to school and trying to make it work, but she was a single parent of three kids. So she couldn't really make that happen. So when I graduated in 2008, I had this consulting job. It was great and my life was going to be perfect. I made more money than anyone else had. And then one day it was gone. And I was a barista at Tijuana. I was slinging the best tea. Honestly, if you came in, you were going to give me a tip because my tea was steeped to perfection. My life completely derailed and I didn't know what to do. So I ended up going to job here in Northwestern and the only black guy who was there was this guy with a target T-shirt on. And he was like, yeah, I can definitely get you in on an interview. And so I became a target. store manager. It was the best possible experience for me because I was a cocky 20-something very young 20-something person who really didn't know who I was and I went into that space thinking that because I'd go into a fancy university I was somehow smarter or better than the people who worked for me and I'm gonna tell you those folks taught me from day one that I was a fool first and secondly that they could win and I would lose. I would lose my job. That's the thing that people don't tell you about being a leader in organization is if the folks don't want to follow you the most natural cause of action is that you leave because the team stays whole and then I was below and I was responsible for guest experience. My store manager was like hey you're gonna get fired you have to figure out how to get along with your staff and I was like well but and then she was just like do you really think that you know more than this person who's been doing this for 20 plus years and I was like well you know what do you put it like that I probably do not know how to do this as effectively. I started saying I was like hey what do you want to do and they were like well I was like okay go do that. My shifts went swimmingly my scores went great my review went great because I found out that when other people are smarter than you just empower them and you kick back and you take the bootleaks but I did have to take all of the dumb yes I understand you think this serial is still but you've even three quarters of it. My team leader does not want me to give you a refund and I feel like I need to back her up so I'm just gonna let you curse me out because she is making my job easier that's why I learned all of my leadership they paid for my beginning of my MIS and my MBA at Rob and Warrz University so Illinois have this great innovation program where if you agree to do some STEM master's degree they would essentially pay you to go to school as long as I would go to school and as long as I had a beer higher target would reimburse me for whatever blah blah blah blah blah but then I also got reimbursement saying Illinois and actually it was 100% legal I was like are you sure they were like yeah and I was like oh I am making more money going to grad school that I have ever made in my entire life I am never graduating don't have to pay my student loans the state of Illinois wants me to be smart let me just stay at school so I got my MIS did I got my MBA and the next day I went to law school and actually dropped out of law school and I think that that's the second couple moment so essentially I had always thought that you have some crazy professional degree to have some sustained career and at that time I had gone from target to working in this startup culture so and again you know I'm making 50-55 thousand dollars I'm like wow I am so rich this is Chicago folks this is a very early 2010s this was a lot of money at that time this was in tech though and this was not the law and so even though I was good at law school I was doing fine in law school I realized how boring it was and so a company offered me an opportunity to work at the company and it was a $10,000 increase or something like that but I had to drop out of law school because I ultimately decided to drop out of law school so I was able to use that to get my first big product manager gig at a publics company and so then that changed everything I spent 15 plus years in product and then I had a kid with my wife in 2021 and also maybe got into a kerfuffle very loudly with the company I worked for at the time and once I came back from that I decided to really focus on consulting I was consulting with the best companies in the world and they just didn't have the fair shop because they were from the great 38 states formerly known as Middle America I'm from Mississippi then I was in Chicago and then I was in Iowa and then North Carolina I've been in all of these places and I had seen how vibrant these humans were that's why we launched divergent ventures in 2022 we had our first clothes and our first investment like holy crap this is really real as a part of our work with divergent ventures it became a natural offshoot too much our new project the Well Salons and so the Well Salons I always say is a gift back between myself and Rikissel and Ampere who is with Emily Ventures which is a great venture fund that focuses on female entrepreneurs and specifically healthcare future work those types of things really excellent team as well we launched it originally focusing on black folks and then we of course expanded it pretty quickly to both the LGBTQ+ and women's verticals because what I realized is I was talking to people who should be multi-multi-millionaires but because they had not worked the companies like Apple and that looks like I had they had never met a banker who talked to them about how to diversify the portfolio they had never had a great realtor who helped them think about their real estate portfolios to help maximize tax savings for instance and so I started one off just connecting people because I was just like man this is pissing me off I'm just gonna send you some folks and you figure it out and then I was like I need to figure out how to disperse this work and so my goal was to start creating this community and it's been great we had our first event with Gabri and Wade as our speaker in October 2023 and then we had our first queer Well Salons also in Chicago at my best friend in the world's place it's called nobody's darling it is the only black women lesbian owned our in Chicago and it's one of the last ones in all of the country we curated this beautiful moment and we focused on talking about leadership and how people can become the leaders they want to be because the simple idea is anyone who is anyone can actually be a board director but especially LGBTQ+ people because there's a propensity for us in land to have these really high level up trolls are behind the scene roles and think okay I shouldn't be in that room and so with that particular vertical we focused a lot on like deprogramming this idea that you can't get a great leader heck yeah you can't you're not only reason that first thing going to jail you make sure the compliance happens so yeah you should be in the board room you should be there telling those folks exactly what they should be doing so that you can actually create the returns for stakeholders like you're supposed to so it's super exciting and now I'm here I'm back in LA I'm chilling and that's who I am be this is a great introduction what you shared throughout this story is an emphasis on education leadership how you learned leadership I'd like to understand how you learned about money through your upbringing in this youth when did you start learning about it how did you learn about it and what was the meaning to you at those times so there's this podcast called scam or scammers it's about everyone does a little scam it's basically the point if you return something that you know you used and you were supposed to not use it that's a little bit of a scam my mom she never made more than $24,000 a year the entire time she was alive and so throughout my youth there was always these things you'd have to go to court because we were going to get infected or she had written a check that bounced and so the first thing I learned is that there's a grace period before you get evicted and when you really got to pay that's how I learned from my mom I remember when I was 18 I went to go get my first credit card and I got declined and I was like how's that possible like I've never had credit and I found out I had gas accounts electric accounts not a knock on my mom or any of the other family members may have used that information it's just how we survive if you didn't have anything you figured out how to make it happen I read now about people who get arrested for pretending to live in some neighborhood so that their kid can go there go to school there or something yeah and we did that constantly at one point I used my guidance counselor's address because she was like we can't use the black kid who's definitely gonna end up in the top 20 that's literally how we figured out how to create upward mobility was by hooker by crook then you get to like Duke I remember my mom she was like okay so this is how financial aid works you can actually ask for more financial aid and then that's how you can pay for your room and board but that's also how you can get money from food so when I got out of college I'm that a third of my student loans were just those overpayments to pay for common things that most people's parents would pay for it but at the same time it made sense that's how I survived I survived by figuring out how to use the systems that were there that my mom explained to me how they worked that's how we learned we learned that that's how you survived yeah to be scrappy exactly now when I started to learn that there were better practices that's very different to be told about that when you got your job at Target and you're making $50,000 per year that's a lot of money coming from a scrappy beginning where there weren't financial resources how did you handle that super terribly the other thing that I learned is that whenever you had a lot of money you're supposed to go out and celebrate it when we would get a big tax return we'd go out and we fill up the grocery cart with all of our favorite foods instead of just like the other stuff we we go get the new shoes and all this other stuff. And so it took me a long time to convert this idea that just because it is in the bank account doesn't mean that you can actually spin the whole amount. You have to pay yourself a little bit first. I'm not even gonna mention her name, but it's like a girlfriend. She was having like a financial flow issue. And what happened is, and this is terrible, as a lesbian, I hate the fact that this happened. This is definitely a U-Haul situation. So I had signed an agreement to move into apartment. That didn't work out for some reason. There was some kind of weird situation with that apartment and it was too late for me to go to the place. Sign up moving in with the girl I was dating at the time. And she was so fanatical about finance as she created a spreadsheet. She's like, this is how much money you make. Honestly, it was so much easier just to do what she said, that I was just like, sure, why not? Then fight it. Yeah, 'cause I was just like, this is too much stress. When I just do what she says, it works. And then what happened is, I just kept doing it. So I just was like, okay, well, that works. I'm just gonna keep doing it. So when I got married, that was the same type of thing. And so it just became this whole thing. But I will say very specifically, things became easiest when I started making a lot, a lot of money. Once you get to places like Apple, folks come to you and say, can I help you manage your money? And they're actually a little gentleman. They're not the Ponzi scheme people. These are the people who work at places. You can see the real stuff, you can do all this stuff. They were like, well, this is how you should do it. And I was like, that makes sense. By the way, your retirement number is 8.8 million dollars. You're like, okay, so how can we get to 8.8 million? They're like, this is how you do it. As soon as I had a plan, that's like a video game. ABCD, I could do that. It's much easier when there's an expert who one sells you, hey, legitimately you could do this. You've been working hard, you'll continue to work hard, you're smart. And these are ways that we can help you amplify it. And they do it in a way that you really learn. And that's one of the things I really like. One of the things that I hate it before, I ended up getting my current team, is that a lot of people, they naturally discount the fact that you're smart. And it's not because I'm black or because I'm a science-people-in-bird. You've used historically been the smartest person of the thing that you do. Why would you think the person across from you who is asking for your services is truly looking for you to be a partner versus you just being an expert. And for me, I cannot participate in anything that I do not understand and I do not feel confident in it. - Nor should you, I'm so glad to hear that. - Exactly. And so when I ended up with my team, what I loved is, is that everything made sense. The first thing that we did is we spent so much time just talking about what would I want? Would you want to be able to buy your credit card at 6.8? Would you want to be able to take this many vacation? Would you want to be able to ensure you can do this type of thing? And these are things that you don't think about. You don't think about the fact that you can plan for those types of things too. And so then also the anxiety starts going away. - I love what you're saying about the financial planning process, which we of course totally believe in. We think that doing a lot of planning, a lot of thoughtful planning that is based on your priorities and most important to you. So critical. Your journey is one that's very interesting and it seems like you just turned your money, mindset and habits on a dime. Did it really happen that easily? - Oh no, no, no, no. No, I still have a shopping habit. My wife has definitely got to be like, "Hey, are you sure?" And I'm like, "I guess I could, cancel." 'Cause I mean, the thing is there's always gonna be things. For a long time, shopping was truly my emotional outlet. I would hunt for things first. - I'd buy it and I'd be like, "Okay, cool, can go of my closet." Now it's more okay, I am a speaker, I'm in the public, I have this persona. - Your brand? - Yeah, and I love to piece it together in just the right way. And so you do have to change it. And so like when I see something, I'm like, "Oh man, when I have that speaking engagement next, "Oh, and so it's hard, 'cause I have to be like, "Okay, I really can't." Or I have to bring in two more gigs or something like that, because I really want that. As you do have to figure out how to gain a fight, the habit in some way that works for you, I think. - It sounds like you're thinking through all the other possible things you could be doing with the money before you make a decision. All that you've learned in your journey with money, how does that feed into the investing that you do in other companies? - One of the things I think about first, this is regret I had, I'm very anti-credit cards in a lot of ways now. I think it's because you end up in this situation where you just kind of lose sight of it. I love companies that do non-dollutive financing. Our first company we invested in is called Precision Epigenomics. Mark the founder, one of the first things that we talked about was his focus on gaining financing from various health organizations, health institutions, have a constant looking at what's different grants, and especially because they want to continue to be able to expand the types of diagnosis they can do across the board. That's perfect because that means that one, as an investor, my share isn't being diluted, but secondly, it gives him so much more room to experiment. That's something I think about in my life. I have come to the brink of disaster more than once. And that's partially because I was experimenting with figuring out what works for someone with my resource and their my skills in trying to build businesses and they join these different types of things. And I think it's just important to have that mindset, especially with divergent, there were times where I was just like, man, I don't think I'm ever going to have a close, I don't think anything ever going to happen. I think it's really good to suck. I'm going to have to walk with my cell between my legs and tell people I couldn't do it. After I was so boastful about my skills, but the reality is is that she kind of just has to navigate that. Be so determined for me at the end of everything. I equate safety with financial safety too. I would like to have a house that feels safe. I like to have relationships that feel safe. I would like to feel economically safe. When I start to think about my approximation of what happiness looks like, it's when all of those things are in place and health is so important. When I start to think about that, I understand that I will run through walls to get to that $8.8 million number, because once I get there in my mind now, I am set. Everything else is gravy. I don't have to worry about anything else. And so then I will be free from that one less burden. That is what I'm looking for in my founders, because when I'm giving you that check, I'm giving you part of my dream. I give you part of my safety. I'm looking for people who have that same level of determination, because even if this company fails, because that's reality, it could fail. I know that if the investment they were making in that even explaining to them how they can build their products better, how they can go to market better, how they can think more dynamically about their products, their next company might be the one. Be tell us a little bit more about what you're doing with the wealth salons. It's so important. It sounds like you're helping with financial literacy. What was the inspiration there? And what are your goals? First and foremost, I was deeply inspired by my good friend, Lexi Butler. So Lexi, beyond being an amazing speaker in a brand new mama, she's created this platform called Sister Circle Black Women in Tech. And so the goal was that when she first came into tech, there were no other people like her in her building. So for us, when I first moved to Silicon Valley, the first thing people told me was go meet Lexi. She will help you. It's a she created this amazing community for folks, your side female or non-binary who want to be in that space. My biggest point though was once we got into the space, what do we do? Because to a certain extent, we needed to be able to create peer shoots right out. What is the number we need to get to? What type of success do we need to get to so that we can free ourselves of the abuse that frankly happens in Silicon Valley? It's just a part of the culture to a certain extent. It started with that just very broad idea. But when I started to merge it, it just really became urgent for me because I realized that the only way that founders in the grade 38, that firms like mine that focus on this economically diverse part of the country, are going to survive is to bring a new generation of LPs, limited partners. And at first, I was just like, well, the reason for that, is I need to have events and parties to bring people together. And when I would have these events and parties, what would happen is, is that I would start talking to people about can you actually commit to the fun? And they were like, no, I can't do 100,000. I was like, oh, now the minimum is 25,000. They're like, oh, no, no. It's tied up in my company. I'm like, what are you talking about? That doesn't make sense. It's like, explain to me like I'm your cousin, what's happening. I was like, that's not what's supposed to be happening. It kept happening over and over and over again. And what I found out is just like any industry, entertainment, athletics, tech, you have these entities that sprout out around them to say that they can help do XYZ. But the level of the acumen for those individuals are very much all over the place. My first idea was, well, can I just because they're creating this role of decks of resources who would be kind to these folks? Because my idea was, even if I say, hey, [BLANK_AUDIO] banker over here, if that banker's not cool, that banker isn't going to talk to them with respect and be dynamic, they're not going to ever talk to that banker again. The first idea was, can I just find cool people? And then I was like, wait, but when I do these events, that's when I find out the good stuff. We have to continue to have these convenings in person, these moments that are curated. Every single one I try to curate and make sure that people feel like something is happening. What I realize is that because we get so focused on what we do, we pass by each other. It's actually those connections that we need often, especially when we are sometimes the apex of the mountain. Because in your family, you're the most successful, you're the one this morning, you're the one everyone calls. You don't have anyone to feel safe with, to say, I don't know everything. The second part of this is, we have to have this virtual part. So we have this WhatsApp community. We do a basic screening, either you get referred by someone in the community, or you can go to our website, thewellsalons.com and apply. And what we look for are people who want to have similar positive impact in our community, but also the water community. What I realized is, I can bring a lot of LPs into my fund, but that's not sufficient. And what happens if I were not here, how do we ensure that those LPs stay in the ecosystem, stay as people who are part of it? The way you do that is by helping them understand that it's not just about what you're going to gain financially. It's about, it gives you the opportunity to do those other things. And when I started asking people with other things, are they dream about it is helping their communities? They're like, I would love to be able to go back to do XYZ. And it's always the simplest stuff. And the simple fact is, they don't feel safe financially, so they can't give back in the way that they want. And what I realized being a person who's been a board director for 15 plus years, for nonprofits, is that we are receiving less philanthropy from individuals than we ever have. And that's because we all feel uncomfortable with the economy and things like that. Instead of us all feeling uncomfortable in our own silos, I wanted to start feeding spaces where we can convene and have these conversations. And then we have these virtual spaces, where eventually we'll have lots of different media and content. So, friends, as I'm thinking about some podcasts to talk about these scary things, the time that someone had to file for bankruptcy and that they didn't know or the time someone had to file for eviction, because these things are terrifying, but guess what? We can all recover from them. That's such an important message. We can recover from them. And if we don't talk about it, when it happens to us, we think this is the end. The other thing, too, is there's just so much money in the world to go around. We just need to do a better job of spreading it. Exactly. And so that's why I wanted to be a marriage between Wikipedia, Nerd Wallet and like the Oprah Winfrey show. Great visual. You go to for expertise. We don't talk a lot about money. We're going to try to find those corporations who are looking for ways to create the next generation of consumers. Hey, come over here to the Wealth Salons because we're going to help arm them with its types of tools that they need to make amazing voices so they become wealthy. The they can change the trajectory of their lives. And one of the things I want to clarify here is that it's called the Wealth Salons because Wealth is a deeply personal thing. And so that means that wealth is what Wealth looks like to you. This $8 million dollar number, that's what my advisor told me. Before the 8.8 million dollar number, I thought, well, was being able to pay all your bills each month put a decent amount to the side, take a few vacations. Until I got to this bigger age and started to really work through this, why would I think anything crazier? And so that's one of the cool things we can all continue to evolve for our relationship. And that's one of the things that I hope happens to the Wealth Salons. You know, even with my own family members who started to participate in conversations I've had, they're like, oh, I never thought about that. That's the power of it. Yeah, bringing the context. I am as excited about helping the coal miners kid in West Virginia who doesn't know what he's going to do because there's no more coal mining as I am the kid like me who is a Mississippi and the dirt roads playing and drinking water out of the water hose. This conversation's been a lot of fun. I think for me, what's really interesting is your emphasis on safety and the risk that you're taking, not only in your vulnerability, in your journey, but in the work that you do to achieve that safety. Tell us what's your next money conversation going to be and who's it going to be with? Technically, it has to be with my wife within an hour because it's Amazon prime time right now. We need to decide what we're actually going to buy in this car because we have a toddler, which means that if we want to, we can really buy a lot of really good stuff and stock up for a while. And this is called an addiction and it's called kids are adorable and you just want to give them gifts all at some time so they say, thank you, Baba, or thank you, Mama, and the most adorable voice that you've ever heard. B, that's a great conversation to be had and the visual I've got hearts coming out of me right now. It's so great. Would you share, where is the best place for people to find you? I am B Payrolls minor everywhere so that it is B P A G E L S M I N O R. Divergent Ventures my venture firm is divergent ventures without the vowels in divergent. So that's D V R G in T ventures everywhere and the Welfth Salons is the Welfth Salon. So that's T H E W E A L T H S A L O N S. Maybe it's been a pleasure, thank you for sharing your stories with us, your passion, your enthusiasm, your lot of fun to talk to. Thank you for having me. Thanks for listening to the Money Tales podcast. If you've enjoyed this episode, share it with someone you think would benefit from listening. And leave us a review on your favorite podcasting platform. Your ratings and reviews help more people find our podcast. If you're inspired to gain clarity and peace of mind about financial matters, don't hesitate to reach out to our team at Asperient. Go to Asperient.com/Startediolog. Or you can email Sandy and me at podcasts@ Asperient.com. See you next time.