"Dustin Hoffman"

Ah, good morning, good morning everybody, this is your cold open, let's get started, welcome to Smartless. Can I ask you guys a question, can I ask you, I was thinking about this the other day, how do you feel about brushing your teeth in the shower, I'm not down with that. Oh, I used to. I used to love that. I don't know anybody who does that. Yeah. I know a lot of people who do that. Yeah, and people shave too in the shower. Shave I kind of get, it's already happening, you got a mirror suction to the wall or whatever. Oh, do you, really? Yeah. Hang on, do you? But brushing your teeth, to me, it's like buying groceries at the pharmacy, like no, I don't want to buy milk. And it's a bit of a waste of water, right, it takes a while there. It's a lot of water. Do you turn off the? The faucet when you brush your teeth in the sink? Yeah, for sure. Great question. Thanks, man. Great question. I have an interview show on the computer. Have you been nominated for interviewing? I have not. Has anybody you work with been nominated for interviewing? Yeah, yeah, a guy that I did, I actually did a show where there were three of us, and then one guy was singled out. Okay. And he ended up being the weakest link, we ended up firing him years later, but anyway, we'll be back with 2030 after these messages. What about? I do, I do. Wait, do you pee in the shower at all? Yeah, pee in the shower, sure, fine, totally fine. You don't pee in the pool anymore, do you? No. Because you guys used to pee in the pool, right? Your pool? You guys can like, a couple of pool peers. I've peed in your pool. Have you? No, you've never been in my pool. I have, once. Really? Yeah, one time. Shawnee, you've never been in my pool. I've never been in it. I've been in yours, I think. Maybe. I've been in yours. Remember, Shawnee, when I was living in above your garage for a while? Yeah. Wait, why? Hang on. Shawn, that was almost 20 years ago. Yeah, and then, and I'd come home. Wait, Will, why have you lived in my house and you've lived in Shawn's house? What's the matter with you? Free, free. Yeah. Are you noticing a trend here? Uh-huh. Yeah, that's so true. I know. I'd come home and be like, "Where's Will?" Look out, he's like, splashing around in the pool in the back. Well, I was living in New York, and so I'm out there, and I'm like, "Where's Will?" And he's like, "I'm out here, I'm out here, I'm out here." What's the matter with you? Free. Free. Uh-huh. I know. I'd come home and be like, where's Will? Look out, he's like splashing around in the pool in the back. Well, I was living in New York, and so I'm out there, and I'm like, look at these people got a pool out here in California. it's a beautiful day I want to try to make maybe when you were a kid and you knew somebody who had a pool and you'd be like oh my god yeah it was huge or pool table right like a billiards table yeah or pool table yeah and you'd never I never understood why my friends never played on their pool table all day long every day yeah or somebody would have like a pinball machine and you're like can we just play that now and they're like I guess yeah I think pool is kind of like poker where like if a 10 year old can do it it's not that hard like a 10 year old can play poker right you know once you learn texas hold'em like you can play pool too right i guess we should include that he did not win and and if we went into the numbers it was probably a distant fit in that round but i do want to say wait sidebar oh yeah let's go so willie gave me a willie gave me a book a while ago called the silent patient i'm almost done yes the silent patient and it was started because i i was like envious of will like he reads all the time i was like i kind of want to be a person that reads look at all these books i don't read them yeah so now i want to i want to start reading i wonder if our surprise guest reads well i well you know what now now that we're there our surprise guest a a do i i pretty much guarantee that he does read And B, he's just written a book himself. Oh, really? Yeah, which to add, which is insane, And I'm like, "Where's Will?" And he's like, "Where's Will?" considering to add to everything that he's ever done, And I'm like, "Where's Will?" his credits are almost without compare. He is a two-time Academy Award winner. He has starred in some of the greatest movies that I've ever seen. And, you know, once I start listening, you're going to know. But I'm going to go in no particular order just because I'm going to try to confuse you, but I won't. I'm going to go all the president's men, marathon men, the graduate, Kramer versus Kramer, Rain Man. You guys, it is one of the great, all-time great actors. And somebody I'm completely thrilled to meet. You guys, it's Dustin Hoffman. The best. The best. Wow. How's that? Is that better? Okay. Anyways, hello, gentlemen. Now, Dustin, how come you're not my guest? what happened here i don't i don't even know how this happened period well oh i do my daughter ali told me about this show because i i don't i i literally hate all this mechanized stuff i can't even work an iphone and you guys know how to do this and i can tell by the way you enjoy each other that you're making a lot of money together and i asked i asked before the And I asked before the show started how much you're making. And I could not get an amount from your producer. Human beings are like that. They'd rather admit their infidelities than tell you how much money they get for something. Sure. That is true. Dustin. Yes. How are things? It's great to see you, my friend. It's wonderful to see you. I mean, really wonderful. I'll just say, I think we met when we were doing Magorium, right? Yes. Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium. Right. Yeah. That was a good meeting. And I remember we had a scene together and I thought, "Oh, this guy's a new guy around the block. Let me see if I can help him." And I said, "He knows what he's doing." I had no idea you were a child actor. Yeah. It started early and I haven't been able to shake it. I hope I'm around and doing it as well as you're doing it and be as relevant as you are. I mean, it's just like the career, Dustin. Do you. Do you take a moment ever to pat yourself on the back privately and you're just talking to us. No one's listening. Right. You can admit it. Do you allow yourself to be proud of what you've done and the talent that you've shared with all of us? You want the truth, right? Please. It's close to it. I think. Well, you guys are successful yourselves, so you can ask yourself the same question. Because with me, the truth is I always. It's like another person. I say, "Who is that guy?" Right. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You don't. Don't you do that yourself? Yeah. Yeah. And the media is somewhat responsible for that. They have a job to do. So they create a bit of a profile too that they perpetuate or mold or adjust or destroy or build up. But yeah, you go home and you just got you all day, every day, wherever you are. And so, yeah, there are two different things. The product that you participate in, that you help to create, are you able to get some separate. Product? Yeah, product. Well, I'm just saying. Well, let me finish. As a consumer, as an audience member, you end up watching or participating or buying that product. You watch the movies that you make. Yes. And are you able to appreciate as a viewer, as an audience member, like, "I like that stuff. He's got my taste. I like what he does." You enjoy watching yourself. You still want an honest answer? Please. I don't know about you guys. Well, I don't know if you guys do something where you can look at it right after you've done it. Yeah. I guess these podcasts you can listen to. Sure. But originally, when I do a movie, I would always see the rushes first, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm. And then I would complain about. To myself. To myself. I did that wrong. I did that wrong. I want to do another one. And then you see the completed movie, and it's a drag, actually. Because for a very real reason, you try to do your best work when you're making a movie. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And you're not in the cutting room. Right. Right. And someone else decides which take is your best take. Yeah. Which is far from the truth. Right. And it's painful. It's just, why did they use that take when you first see it? Why did they use it? And then I just never look at it again. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But also, there's that thing. It may not be your best take, but also, at that point, you have to give yourself up to the idea that for better or for worse, that whoever's the director and the editor they're putting together, and they're like, this serves the story better, or this serves the movie better. Not necessarily. This might not be your best take, but this helps us in this way. And sometimes, I get what you're saying, is it's sometimes a hard pill to swallow. You're just like my wife. You're defending the other side. No, I know. Of course. She always does that. Don't you know, there's an expression my friend tells me, which is that experts come from out of town, which is, you can tell somebody something, and then somebody else will say, and they'll go, "Hey, so-and-so said. " And you're like, "I've been saying that forever." And it's, yeah, experts come from out of town. Yeah. Dustin, I'm reminding you, we're kind of all over the place here, but it just occurred to me hearing you say that, and talking about looking at your work, or looking at the rushes, and saying, "I could have done that better." I remember hearing your story, and confirm if it's true, I remember somebody telling me back when you were making Rain Man, which I thought was obviously like everybody else was interesting. incredible performance and and as a as a young guy who wanted to be an actor and looked and and watching that performance thinking like wow like you can somebody doing this in this way like it was just mesmerizing transforming really did it and i somebody told me that you would come home every night and think jesus what the hell am i doing and and i don't like what i'm doing was there any truth to that because that really affected me as a young actor hearing hearing that story was there any truth to that you still want the truth right yeah it's a hundred percent just until the 30 minute mark then the last half is lying i like to see your rhythm of talking is very good because you're very very good i'll try to equal that okay you could try yes the first i mean i researched this part for probably almost two years because tom cruise kept getting movies that he had to make and then we'd say okay we'll start after he makes that movie and they were bad movies that made a huge amount of money because he was in them like cocktail and he was good right so i had all this time and i loved doing research and i i actually met two guys who were brothers one was very handsome like tom and he was a great football player at least 19 and his brother kevin was a role model uh in terms of the part i played i had two guys i found out of all the ones i met and i said to barry levinson who was brilliant i thought i said which one and he picked the one that he thought would be best and so i went with him uh and uh so the first the first day of shooting uh we were shooting uh i think outside an elevator or something i can't even oh car we're outside and we're looking at the car and i am i look at the rushes i am so bad i literally said to my wife who was there i'm quitting and this was on the day this was on the day shooting it was before the rushes because there was monitor i said i don't know what i'm doing and i didn't i said half of it sounds like midnight cowboy another sounds like papillon i literally didn't know after all this research i could not do anything that i felt had any and barry was brilliant actually he said well why don't you do this he says let's go see the rushes the dailies and see if there's anything that you like and i went and we looked at it and there was like one moment i said there you just have a feeling i said there's the guy he says so do that i says i can't yeah so here i am in a car with tom cruise who was extraordinarily generous and helpful he's a really decent human being uh despite his good looks and uh and we're in the convertible i guess i think it's good and we're driving and i cannot do uh the scene because barry lovinson said do the scene but it's 10 minute what is it things of film you know rolls of film or using film and he says and when we run out of film just improvise there's a hidden camera there because there was no room for the director so it's just tom and i in the hidden camera and we're and we're acting away then we run out and we and he says okay just improvise because he's watching on a monitor and he'll maybe he can use some of it and as i said there's a camera coming up this way there's a camera that way camera so he's got a lot of positions to choose from without anybody operating them and tom starts doing all this wonderful improvisation asking me questions i don't have a clue how to be so-called the character so i don't know how to answer right and i went go back afterwards and i said i said barry i'm out of here i cannot play this guy i don't know he says come here come here come here i think you found him i said what he says come here look at the monitor and he played it and what i did without knowing it and it wound up being in the movies every time he said something i kept saying yeah yeah yeah because i didn't know what to say he says that's the guy that's really cool wow wow wow that's amazing and is that the moment you realized also when you figured oh if i don't look at him that's also another characteristic of this guy because through the whole movie you barely made eye contact with him and i was like no no no i i decided to do that before before okay i had my role models right and but what you do i think what you should do as an actor is that you notice things and then you try to ape it and then you try to find what's in you where you do that thing that that guy is doing and i there was a couple things and one is i realized not just me but we human beings don't make eye contact because it's too intimate if we're talking to people that we don't know right so i'm not going to do that right like on an elevator you don't even look at people right if you or if you do it's it's briefly and then you look away there's an intimacy i think an eye contact yeah jason stop staring at me by the way it should be do you know do you know you know sean i was going to say about that this is just a quick sidebar uh am i talking fast enough no no it's amazing it's it's this is this is a dream come true what if i want to do this for three hours yeah no problem we got plenty of film we want to do this for three hours you know i started this new gig and i had to do for the company won't say who they had to do you know because they're all owned by corporations now you have to do a sensitivity training video do a what sensitivity training video like a a court like a half hour thing that you have to show up for on zoom right for uh for this thing that i'm doing and uh and they said one of the things you can't do is you can't maintain eye contact longer than three seconds is considered uh can be considered too much i'm not kidding really yes in terms of what and it's too intimate it's too intimate longer than three seconds so whether you're looking at a guy or a girl more than three seconds being up yeah hr's gonna call you is there a little intimacy uh in our future yeah so i'm making i'm making this limited series down in in this in the showrunner she came up to me the other day she had a note she starts going she goes you know well i think in this scene i go one two three i said i'm sorry your time's up this is getting too intimate that's really funny i took i took some classes at second city in chicago you know the improv place oh yeah and and the first day was that was that you had to pick up somebody in the class that you didn't know and you had to stare at each other for like two or three minutes which is a really long time in silence and i was it was the most uncomfortable thing i've ever done in my life i'm like hello sir nice to meet you and we just end up staring at each other right in the eyes yeah it was crazy i studied with strasburg and he had his own version of that because i know what you're talking about and it was strasburg's because you stand up in front of whatever it's 50 60 students and you had to sing a song and you had to make contact with one or more of the students in front of you but you had to elongate my country and you literally saw people start crying that were doing this because there was something unmasked at them and it was oh and the teacher would get up sometimes and you had to be totally relaxed and you they'd pull your arms up and they dropped down some guys were so tense or people they didn't realize it they kept going oh they said they didn't realize there did that ever happen to you jason wow no i was just sort of imagining like the song exercise that's what i did it i did it i studied at strasburg i did i i remember doing that dustin uh wow yeah i did crazy um speaking speaking of studying at strasburg so so i i one of one of uh my favorite sort of things that i've learned about you over the years because i've looked you up often uh embarrassingly amount of times uh is that you when you were starting out and you were young and my roommates and i used to always talk about this when we were living in new york studying at strasburg in the early 90s that you were roommates with uh robert duvall and gene hackman back in the day no way that yeah and and that's because we looked up to you guys and we lived together they were doing it and and in in some way it allowed us to dream we also we were friends and we hung out together and we were unemployed for almost 10 years yeah and wow and and for us we were like not that we thought that we could be you guys but it gave us hope because you were guys that we looked up to when we thought these guys are really doing it and how how much when you guys were back in those days did you ever allow yourselves to think that you'd have the time to think about it did you did you talk about it did you never no never never never well because in our day there was a there were actors that had a different look they didn't look like members of the audience when we came about suddenly the taste changed it wasn't rock hudson or tab hunter or these good-looking leading men suddenly there was this explosion that happened you know jack kerouac uh uh living in the moment the 60s and suddenly the public wants at least with men i don't think it was true with true with women women always had to be beautiful but the men wanted the stars or so-called to look like them people the guys in the audience wanted to see people on the screen yeah that looked like them so we never thought about that what we so we and we argued we fought bitterly over whose teacher was better mine was and george morrison was uh you know gene hackman's and and i mean there were violent fights i mean deval was then i was It's like, you're fucking bullshit. Sense memory, it's all bullshit. My stuff, it's improvisation. It's all improvisation. We were like angry. Right, right, right. And we didn't expect anything, what we wanted. Oh, the one thing we agreed on was who was bad, who was not having a good performance, the opposite of what critics would say. In those days, if you were British, you automatically got a good review. Every critic said, oh, that's a great actor. But the truth is, what we agreed on is what was bad, and that was a unanimous feeling that we had. We were very critical of, oh, that's a good moment, that's a good moment, you know, in our own work or within. I feel like I'm getting boring, so I'll shut up. No, no, no, no, no, no. But at that time, at that time, when you got, and you guys were kind of like this next generation of actors, and you came in, you studied with Strasberg, and you were saying in Duval's study with Sandy Miles, Sandy Meisner, at that time, when you were looking at movies, who were the guys that you did look at and go, that's the kind of shit. Brando, Brando, Brando, Brando, Brando, Brando, Brando. That's it. Yeah, yeah, for sure. That was our hero. That was our god. And what, if a gun was to your head and you had to give a description of what it is that sort of defined the quality, the high level of his talent, what would it be? Can you define what it is to be a good actor, or what would it be to be a good actor, or what it looks like? Good question. Yes. I don't think it's different from you guys. Can I do it in a way, a scene, or a moment, or the movie, or the character? Can I do it in a way that's never been done before? Can I do it in a fresh way? Can I be what we all call in the moment, literally in the moment, in the present, as you're doing it? Kazan wrote a book, and he talks about Brando, and on the waterfront, and apparently there's a, Rod Steiger is his brother. Sure. It's a brilliant, brilliant scene. There's so many good actors today that never heard of it. Oh, yeah. Is he the guy that was in The Godfather? No, he was in On the Waterfront. Yeah. There's no sense of history. And he's in the back seat with Rod Steiger, and Rod Steiger pulls a gun on him. It's written that, well, you know what I'm talking about. And he can't do the scene. And he goes, and he pulls up to Kazan, and he says, "I can't do the scene. He's my brother. I know he's got an oculation." And Kazan says, "Do it the way you feel it." And here is this brilliant, brilliant scene then. And if you guys aren't familiar with it, please watch it. He's in the car in the back seat. Rod Steiger pulls the gun on him because he's ratted. That's what it's about. Brando has ratted on somebody, which is another story. And he says, "Jolly, jolly." And he puts the gun, he just moves it lovingly. Almost away. And he said, "Jolly, you're my brother. I can't imitate him." But there was such love in it. It's one of the most extraordinary things. And as Kazan said, only Brando would have done it that way. His-- I know what he said. He says his pauses were more powerful than anybody's acting. His pauses, the amount of-- the depth of information that is emotional information, that was-- that was in him. That's cool. And we will be right back. And now back to the show. Do you feel like that, you know, like, I don't know, the pauses come as a result of-- of what? Like, what is-- what is generating that kind of originality and subtlety and honesty? Is it-- is it-- is it-- would you recommend that an actor really key off of what's going on internally as opposed to trying to focus on what you are showing externally? I mean, I guess I-- I don't know. I guess I'm not-- I'm not looking for the definition of what good acting is, I suppose, even though I asked for it. But-- because it's such a hard thing to say, but-- Oh, let's see. You're not looking for-- for what? I mean, yeah, I mean, you can't-- you can't really define what is good acting, because you kind of know it when you see it. But for you, when you find that you're in a great place and that it's feeling good and honest to you, and even when you watch the rushes and, "Yes, I'm-- I'm hitting--" What do you feel like you're doing really well? Are-- are you-- are you staying internal? Um, are you doing it for you? Are you conscious of the camera? Do-- do you know? Like, when-- when does it feel right? What is it that you-- that you feel you're tapped into when you're doing it right? Well, my first thought is I've been doing it for over 50 years, and these questions-- the answers to these questions have changed over the years. I mean, for the first few years, I was so frightened of the camera. I-- and that's-- you know, actors always say, "You know, when you're off camera, you're helping the other actor sometimes if the camera's just on the other actor." And you say, "God, why couldn't I have done that when I was on camera?" You know what I mean? You do your best work when you're off camera, 'cause you're relaxed. You're in the moment. And you're-- you know, all that self-consciousness is-- is taken away from you. The other part of it is you don't know. Right. It takes so long-- in fact, just recently, I was in a movie, and I said, "Oh, I know what I'm gonna do." 'Cause you-- it's endless in terms of thinking of new ways to do it. I'm just gonna go-- I have no idea what this movie is about. I have no idea what this character is about. It was with a great director, Coppola, and it was "Megalopolis," and I didn't want to be in it. I said, "I don't know who the fuck this guy is." I said-- I said-- but he says, "No, but he needed me in it." He wanted-- so, okay, I'll-- I'll do it. I'll do it in a few days. And I had no idea-- and I said, "I know what I'll do. I'll just walk out during the scene"-- and he had multiple cameras-- "and, uh, and I'll just, as you said, you know, just be in the moment and not care." -Right. -Not care about anything. And just be, "Oh, look at that. Look at that cameraman. Look at--" You know, they're always saying, you know, "You're in my eye line." Actors always say to-- to another actor who's, you know, if the actor's on camera and he's looking at someone and he doesn't want to see him, "You're in my eye line." They want him to move. Or the camera, they say-- I-- I said, "Stay there. Don't move. I want you in my eye line." -Yeah. -It's real. -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -Yeah, it's real. He's gonna know that I'm talking to you, that you're just standing out there. -Yeah. -Right. You know, there's-- What-- what did you take-- what-- your first-- it's actually your second movie, "The Graduate," right? "The Graduate" is your second 'cause you'd-- you'd made, uh, um-- was it "The Tiger Makes Out" was your first film? -Yes. -Yeah. Yeah. -And-- and-- and-- -I'm crossing the street. I'm cross-- it's-- I did it because my friend Murray Shiskal, who was a-- a co-writer with me on "Tootsie," we've been friends for years and years and years and years. He was my mentor. I never knew about art before I-- I came to New York and met him. He took me to-- to, you know, modern art, to build all-- all this art. He said, "That's so-and-so, that's a-- can you tell me who that painter is?" You learn who the painter is just by looking at the painting. He told me what literature to read. I mean, he was-- my God, he-- he-- he-- he was everything to me. And what he-- tell me the question again. I've got a good answer. Well, no, the-- the-- the "Tiger Makes Out" was your first-- Oh, so I-- so I do the "Tiger Makes Out," 'cause he had-- he had-- he-- he-- he had written it for, uh, the theater first. It was-- they were one-act plays. "The Typists" was one play, the other play was called, and "The Tiger," "The Typist and the Tiger." By the way, he was a phenomena, because he had written "Love" on Broadway, spelled L-U-V, and it was with Alan Moore, Alan Arkin, and-- and, uh, God, I should remember the-- the actress's name, I'm ashamed of myself, and directed by Mike Nichols, and it broke the barriers. It suddenly introduced an avant-garde into commercial theater that-- that was terrific. Anyway, so I do it, I'm-- I'm crossing the street, and-- and I'm supposed to be, uh, uh, saying, uh, "Rosie Krieger" or something. "Goodbye, Rosie--" Yeah, we'd broken up or something. "Goodbye, Rosie Krieger. "Goodbye, Rosie Krieger." And the camera's on my back. The camera's not even close, and I cross the street, and that's it, and my parents see it, and they say, "You were great in that scene in the park." I said, "I wasn't in the scene in the park." They actually thought they-- I was in another scene where the camera was like-- Oh, no, no way, no way. And then you give them the graduate. What I wanted to say was, it's interesting, we're talking about all the acting, and-- and like Jason said, was, um, what makes a good actor and all that, and all I thought about this whole time was, and I'm-- forgive me, 'cause I'm sure you get asked about it every day of your life, is you actually played an acting teacher in "Tootsie," and I just think it's ironic that we're talking about all of our insecurities as-- as actors and finding characters, and-- and there you are onscreen teaching acting to-- to this class in "Tootsie," which is one of the greatest movies of all time and one of the greatest performances of all time. Thanks. Um. well, how do I answer this? Murray Shiskall and I wrote this movie, and, uh, we couldn't, uh, get it right. There was a part of it that we-- that somehow didn't-- the third act, we couldn't make work, the culmination of it, and what we wanted to do-- this was not about playing a woman. This was about the intention that what started the whole movie is how most actors don't work. Yeah. I mean, that's, you know, years and years and years go by and you can't even get your first job. Yeah, you could be in some community theater, but a job, you know, a real job, you don't get for years and years. In fact, in my day, that was a signal that you were a good actor, the better actor that you were, the more unemployment there was. The ones that got work, again, were these actors who gave what we call result performances. They were predictable. And so I wanted to show how hard it was to get a job. So we created an artifice. Terry Gar, brilliant actress, I love her deeply, and then she departed too soon. You know, it came about that, you know, she can't do auditions. We somehow made that work. Oh, well, then I'll play your part and maybe I'll get a job. And somehow it just escalated from that point. I was working with Columbia Pictures, who I worked with before, and I said to them, I do not want to do this unless I can be believable in makeup, hair. As a woman, I do not want to walk down the street and have people turning in real life and say, who's that guy in drag? Right. And it was very hard to get the makeup right. I can give you a long answer to this. You can edit it. We have a bit, I would shave as close as I could, and it would still, you could see the beard line because the follicles are underneath your skin and you can never get rid of it. And the makeup always looked fake. And then I thought, well, what about those people in Japan? I mean, this is over two years. Columbia agreed, okay, I don't have to make the movie until I'm believable. And there was these, what do they call them in Japan? The men that play women, they have a certain kind of makeup. And I tried using that makeup and it didn't work. Anyway, bah, bah, bah, bah, bah. Finally, with assortment of things, find a way. And it's also the lighting, what kind of lighting I would need. And suddenly they say, okay, you're believable. And I have the, you know, took a long time to get the right kind of outfit because I have a 16 and a half inch neck and that looked very masculine. So that dictated that I had to have an open blouse and et cetera, et cetera. I wanted to test it. My daughter, Jenna, who's I think 52 now or something, she was like in the eighth grade and she was at school, I think the UN school downtown. And I said, I know, I know when they're all out, you know, in the back, I'm going to go there and test it out. And I went there in costume and I started talking. I went up to one of her teachers and started doing, you know, this best I could and I got away with it. She was furious. She came up to me, she says, get out of here, Dad. How can you do this to me? Wait, so she recognized you? Your daughter recognized you? I got, yes. She was furious. And oh, the voice, I can tell you very quickly about the voice. The voice was hard. And, you know, as an actor, you don't want to do what's been done and what was brilliant was something like a hot. They were brilliant. It was a brilliant film. But they were doing a very, it was a farce. So they were allowed to be a little less unbelievable because it's a style of farce. And they're doing falsetto. And I said, I don't want to do a falsetto voice. It sounds like those guys. And to me, this is very interesting. UCLA is near where I live. And I was able to go talk to voice experts that worked at UCLA, whether they help people at a STEM or whatever, but they exist. And this one person said to me, you know, one thing is that when women in those days, particularly this is in terms of the women's movement, this will be interesting. In those days, when women say something, it's almost as if they're asking for permission to talk. So they tend to end up, well, do you want to know something very interesting? Do you want to know, and they're up, men are always declaring, and this is the way it goes, and this is what I mean. And a woman will say, well, this is maybe what I'm, and I'm thinking, and I said, well, how am I going to, they say, well, he says, people in the south tend to do that. Well, you know, it's how, it's so interesting because what they do is they wind up up. And that was how. And that was how the voice, which I, you know, never really perfected it, but you do the best you can. I think you can. Is that, you know, that's what made her southern, is just to wind up up instead of down. I think, I think, I think you perfected it pretty well. And that movie was, I mean, I echo Sean, one of the, one of the great, one of the great performances and directed by the great, the late, great Sidney Pollack. I love your scenes with Sidney Pollack who acted in it, who played your agent in it. Hilarious. Your scenes with him, when you come in and reveal yourself, is one of my favorite scenes when you, and he's like, what are you doing? Have you lost, I forget. The Russian tea room. That scene between you two guys is one of the great, you talk about in the moment, real, in the moment scenes between two guys and a guy who know each other well, who's saying, what the, have you lost your fucking mind? And the other guy's like, hey, I'm doing it. That's improvised because he, he hated that I was improvising. He, he, you know, by the way, the unspoken person who really saved this movie was none of, none other than Elaine May. And the, Burt Field, I didn't have an agent. I hated agents because whenever I wanted an agent, needed an agent, there was never anybody. So suddenly when you're established, everybody wants to, fuck you, you know, so I didn't have an agent and I had a personal friend and an attorney, the late Burt Fields, wonderful man. And he said, I mean, we're trying for a year and a half. We have some of the best writers having tried this besides Murray and me. Larry Gelbar, but no one can, for my money, can solve it. And he says, have you tried a woman? And I was embarrassed to say, I can't believe we never tried a woman. He says, well, I have a client, Elaine May. He says, why don't you try her? She comes in, I'll say it very quickly. She's a brilliant, brilliant human being and still alive. But she's brilliant in one way, but she doesn't know that, you know, she's wearing pants that are flies unzipped or that she doesn't have a coffee. I mean, she has her own, her own, you know. Universe. And she said, I'll tell you, she read it within 24 hours. And she said, I'll tell you right now, the Jessica Lange character is the one you're in love with. She should be a drunk. She should have a terrible boyfriend. She should have a place in the country. This is after 24 hours. And she should have. She should have a father who falls in love with you in the country. And that's how you get out. It's amazing. It's never happened, but she just had it and knew it. And I still forgot the question. But she made that, she made that happen. That's amazing. That's so good. Oh, she was brilliant. We were talking about the Sidney Pollack scenes and improvisation, but yeah, go ahead. No, so the Sidney Pollack, he and I fought every single day. Yeah, I saw the behind the scenes, yeah, of that. Yeah, we hated each other. We loved each other and completely got along when we were shooting. We hated each other when we were working on the script. He hated Maurice Shiskell. I would have come in with Maurice Shiskell's version for the day we're going to talk about. He had his own writer or, you know, more than one who were working. Everybody was trying to get the script right. And that's when we fought. Once we agreed, he was brilliant. And he did improvise ultimately, and he didn't want to. And what he, and that's not, not only this Russian tea room, do I think it was quite wonderful. In his office. In his office. Yeah, yeah. Incredible scene. It's all, all it's improvised. And when you change from, you know, Dorothy Michaels, you're like, it's me, Michael Dorsey. And it is, George. It's really me. He just kept changing between Michael and Dorothy. It was great. Amazing. And he's brilliant. And I said to him, he never acted before. I think he started out as an actor, but he didn't believe in himself as an actor. And I said, we couldn't cast that part, at least to my satisfaction. And I said, Sidney, why don't you? We're trying a week after. I mean, we spent a lot of time rewriting, spent a lot of time trying to cast, get the look right. It's like a year and a half. Columbia said, take as much time as you want. It was Frank Price, thank God. And who was the head of Columbia and who started out as a waiter. Wow. Very interesting, Frank. Anyway, so take as much time as you want. No, I'm forgetting where I was. You're talking about Sidney Pollack. You're looking for the character. Yeah, so Sidney Pollack. So he's acting brilliantly on The Money, and he was absolutely brilliant as the agent. And I said to him when we couldn't cast it, Sidney, you should play the part. Our arguing in life is exactly what these guys are doing on the screen. He said, no, no, no, I won't. And he lived in New York, and I lived in L.A., and I literally sent him roses every few days. Saying, please be my agent, love, Dorothy. And he kept saying no, one after the other, one after the other. And he finally said yes, and he was. It was great. Oh, the irony here is he got all the work he could get afterwards. All the parts that would have come to me first suddenly came to him first. Well, Dustin, speaking of casting, how did you land on Bill Murray? Was that somebody's idea? Was it the studio? That was early on in his career, right? Well, but he had. He was a comedic actor. He was known as a, just like as a sort of of a comedy guy did he come from Second City I can't remember yeah Second City and SNL and so he oh SNL right yeah but like was that a piece of casting that the studio wanted you to to think about or was it or did it come from Sidney or the casting director or you was somebody a fan I'm trying to remember yeah oh I know what it was I didn't know him yeah and there was a birthday party for Frank Price yeah the guy who was the head of Columbia right and we all went to the birthday party I think it was in New York yeah and we go there and you know ba ba ba ba ba and then Lisa and I we come outside and outside is you know I don't want to be inside anymore is this guy Bill Murray right and we just and I think he brought his Volkswagen he's waiting for his car and we just got to talking and I and I had said to Lisa because we had been working on Tootsie you need a roommate Elaine May says you need a roommate I said I don't how can I have a roommate someone my age in the movie is not going to have a roommate and he's going to be living with a girl I mean who has a roommate you know it's just it didn't make sense to be that age I mean you'd live in a less expensive apartment in a hobble so that you wouldn't so you could be alone and then we got home and the next morning I said to Lisa that guy that I met last night he could be my roommate wow I believe him right I believe we just got on right away we just had a sense and and so yes he got and Sidney of course didn't want him he wanted someone else for the part he had to be talked and he says Bill Murray he's not an actor he's a comedian he's just done SNL or whatever he's not a real actor back back back so we finally agree and Bill Murray gets the part and we have a building we're shooting I think on 22nd street a real apartment and we wanted to have the roommate's bedroom on one side and my bedroom on the other side so there was a distance between us so there was a sense of not living as quote roommates and they had fashioned his room or styled it and he went in with Sidney and Sidney on purpose didn't have him shoot his scenes until the last three weeks of shooting because he didn't want to take a chance he was having such a rough time with me he didn't know how to have another guy that he was going to have and he didn't know how to have a rough time and we're on the street first day and we're walking down the street and like rehearsing the 5th Avenue scene and he sees a costume truck which is our costume oh yeah we're supposed to shoot and he goes in there and the costumer had you know how they do they have their big truck at one of the hardest jobs in movies I think there's no harder job than millions of choices and he walks in and he just grabs this that the other and he puts it on and the costume guy no but what and he walks out and he'll just fashion himself in the most ludicrous way you know whatever it was orange pants he says this is my costume and Sidney is not about to argue with this guy you know and so that was it so wow wow so everything had to go through had to go through me because he you know he didn't fuck around Bill and oh by the way I have to tell you one thing is that we became friends what a wonderful man he is but we went to see he really is and we went to see in those days I think we went to see a fight together or something the mask or garden I can't remember and we're coming out and we're in the lobby before we get out and this guy keeps coming after me for an autograph and a video or whatever it was and I'm in the middle of a conversation with Bill and I said well I can't because I'm in the you know I always say say yes because it's you get rid of people quicker if you just sign the autograph and and he keeps and out of nowhere Bill grabs him by the lapels and throws him against the wall I mean whoa and he gets right in his face and this is not the Bill Murray that we know and he says you say one more fucking word and you're done I mean like that and I said to him as we walked away I says Bill where'd that come from he says you know I'm Irish I got five brothers and I'm from Chicago you know what can I even say I mean that's the way it was that's so good my God my God there's so much we want to get I want to get to oh God I want to ask you so many more questions by the way it's so brilliant just as a it's so brilliant to have the roommate of course you needed to have the roommate to give you that context of where he's where Michael Dorsey is coming from right I mean yes in other words I'm sorry Elaine says are you going to have a voiceover? I says no we don't want a voiceover well someone has to know what your thoughts are yeah that's why he's there yeah it's brilliant it's brilliant so you can express I don't know if I can do this I don't know what you know yeah yeah we'll be right back and back to the show I mentioned at the very top in the intro that you've written this book which I'm really excited about and talk a little bit about that your book Look at Me which is available according to when this episode airs it's available tomorrow November 10th yeah November 10th oh what you've written this book Look at Me walk us through a little bit about that process of writing this book and what it was like kind of going back and going through all these things and this as Jason pointed out just this incredible incredible career in life that you've had well you know you guys are asking basically brief questions and I'm giving long answers no we love it that's what we're supposed to that's the zero man this is the zero hour anyway I have notebooks you know regular kind of notebooks that you buy in a store you know just regular notebooks you know you can get thin lines or wider lines and I have maybe 30 notebooks over the years where I said this is the notebook where I'm going to write my I had to know the difference between an autobiography and a memoir autobiography just means you know from oh I was born this day and this this day and a memoir it has to do more with memories your memories doesn't even have to be chronological order and so I always would say my name and I would say another thing and I was given this name for this reason two sentences that's it I can't do anymore and I always thought it was a notebook so I would buy a new notebook a different kind of notebook so I'm looking for the right notebook and here's all these notebooks piled up with two sentences on them then some there's other memoirs being written and I'm an old motherfucker fart person and if I don't do it now you know because I barely remember anything now there is such a thing as short term memory and I always like to say things where other people you know it's like any of us say did I did I eat breakfast this morning you know we all have I'm the worst and when you're older it's worse did I take a crap this morning you literally can't remember and I have notes now where you know I have a note in the kitchen saying had my coffee at such and such a time in the bathroom there's a little note there say you know took a crap at such and such I have to go see where the notes are to know you know well then what was what was a process like then writing the memoir did you have somebody that would help you sort of jog these memories thank you yes and well first of all the brain is an interesting instrument I think it's a you know the largest organ in the body and we know the least amount about it before very recently I think AI is solving stuff like that more quickly however we were told I remember we only understand 10% right of how the brain works what about the other 90% and there's also so what happened with me and it's happened to others is with this lack of I mean with this short term memory problem whoa the brain opens up and suddenly you remember something that's 50 years ago you remember the name and somehow Simon and Schuster somehow had I don't know if they got a hold of me or I got a hold but you know Luke Janklow or something they wanted I mean a memoir and they suggested I said I have not been able to do it and they suggested this woman and she was my savior and she and I co-wrote it and what she did which no one else first of all she put everything on a what we used to call a tape recorder but everything was there she'd ask me questions she'd go home with hours and hours and hours so you can see how long I can talk and she would have it all transcribed to written and then she would edit it and then she'd come back and she did something I thought was quite extraordinary we'd talk talk talk talk talk she asked questions wonderful questions and then after some of the questions I'd give her an answer and she would ask me questions about my answers yeah and that was brilliant and that's what opened up this world because we were pressed a lot a lot of stuff we don't want to remember I'm sure I'm sure you would say a lot to this as an answer to this question, but, um, um what surprised you about the things that you remembered um uh was was was there was there a memory that came back to you that was particularly more welcome than any other is something that you were surprised that you remember a lot of them i could well look at me i'll tell you why it's called that yeah yeah is that okay yeah okay i worked i was doing a i knew bob evans who was at that time had a paramount and he was brilliant even if he had you know uh an ice cube full of cocaine halfway out of his nose you know he was he was a brilliant producer i mean love story uh godfather i mean he had a string he he knew he knew about which film should be done and i he approached me uh because i marathon man i think was being done by paramount and he approached me or you know that i should do it and i said certain things and he said and i know who should be the the the the nazi character zell it should be sir lawrence olivier i mean how could he have come up with that he went to london and he asked olivier to do it olivier said no we didn't want to do it he he the poor man was ill he had gout he had different forms i think of cancer he was on a lot of medication and he knew he was ultimately terminal i never understand what that means because we're all ultimately terminal but anyway he wanted money he had no money he'd spend a lifetime you know doing a lot of stage work and here this guy is saying i'll give you a and he decides to do it and he i know i know he had one of the sons was at ucla used to come visit him every day and so here he is and parenthetically this guy would do i mean in his day you know they did repertory theater there so in one week he would do hamlet macbeth king lear you know knew all three of them word by word you know tremendous you know a kind of equipment you have to have to have been that you know repertory actor yeah and here he is and he comes to work the first day and we are shooting and he can't remember two sentences together because of the meds and he's in pain because of the gout it's this you know much bigger yeah and he never complains and schlesinger brilliant director john schlesinger is there and then and you know he figures okay we have you know and we get closer and closer and then finally they get right on on him and i would you know try to coach him off camera and then he started he would start he would do takes where because he was a stage actor yeah so one of the one of the things about having a craft as an actor to be a stage actor a good one you have to be real for that people for the people in the first row and you have to be as real for them as you are for the people in the last role of the balcony right that's called craft yeah i wasn't great but you know that's what the great actors stage actors could do and here he is now on a close-up and he's like talking to the rafters and he's acting big quote not good but quote big and i start to walk up to schlesinger so who's british and he just goes i know i know i know i know what you're going to say i'm not going to tell the great actors i'm going to tell the great actors i'm going to tell the great actors actor in the world that he's over the top if you want to tell him you tell so we have a break we're outside and we go behind a a tree and i say to i i couldn't call him i didn't want to call him sir i didn't want to call him sir lawrence uh i didn't want to call him larry which a lot of people call him so i invented the name i called him lordage and he liked that lord and and oh by the way he his performance and i told him i says your performance in the entertainer is one of the great performances i've ever seen on screen have you guys ever seen it i haven't i want to see that oh it's brilliant and he plays a guy with a certain kind of cockney accent and he's and he's like a song and dance man from outside of london almost you know campy and fey and i said to him when i started working with him i said that performance you gave in the entertainer is one of the most brilliant and he said to me that's me that's where i'm from that's what i started out doing wow tap dancing trying to get a job he says sir lawrence the shakespearean actor that's the act wow that's interesting that's not but this is this is me so i say to him i said why don't we just run the lines a little bit you know how we run the lines we just try to get the lines back you know before whether we're on a break and we start to do that and then i say you know what lordage when we go back now and do your close-up why don't you just do one where you're you know it's like when we just run the lines just do it like that like you're just you know reading the lines you know aloud oh boy and he gives me a long look oh boy and he's you know that close yeah long look and he says are you saying to me that i'm over the top which means like ham acting yeah yeah and i'm like woody allen oh no and there's a pause long pause one of the greatest moments of my life he looks at me and he says thank you wow and we were very close friends from that moment on jesus that's and i asked him about parts he he had done you know we we just became great friends and one of the things i said to him was let me ask you something i always say this you know i probably said it to you guys one of the things you know how did you know you wanted to be what you are right you know how did i say to actors you know or anybody when did you know you wanted to be an actor how old were you how did that happen and you know i said that to him and i said you hear actors say things like oh i knew i had a gift i was born with a talent or i wanted to share my all this and every time i'd say something he'd say bollocks bollocks bollocks which is a british term instead of saying bullshit they say bollocks which is a combination of balls and cock it literally it's bollocks that's their way of saying bullshit bollocks bollocks i said then what's the real reason and he comes up to me and he looks me nose to nose he says the real reason we act i says yes look at me look at me look at me look at me look at me look at me look at me and i got chills wow that's what that's why the name of the book yes the name of the book and that's what it's and that's all of us yeah whether we're writers or painters or whatever it's a way of saying i'm here i'm alive i exist look at me see me even if it's not literally yeah wow well that incredible uh this is this will be a hacky hacky segue but we have certainly seen you uh a whole bunch uh and and we're all the better for it for so so long dustin i mean yeah as i said at the beginning the the amount of work that you've done and you've never been terrible yeah i mean it's not a shame don't say that no well no no that's just not true i mean i've not acted as much as other people gene hackman i mean he didn't like his home life so he probably did five movies a year everything he you know they say yeah i'll do it but i barely did one a year i was so particular more particular than i should have been because after the graduate hit you know suddenly i'm getting all these scripts and most of them are are not good and uh in fact i would say to lisa my wife i would say you know this script doesn't work and she says you know what it took her years to say this it was so smart she says don't take apart because of the script forget about the script the script changes the minute you say you're doing it you and the director other be you work on it becomes a different animal when you start shooting it's a different animal usually i said then what should determine whether she says the director the director i had already turned down fellini i had already turned down ingmar bergman this is what a schmuck i was wow because i because the material i thought i had problems she doesn't work with the director right i agree anyway well you know you chose well yeah and thank thank god you've whatever you've done thank god you've done it because i mean i i'm sure i speak for will and sean but i will i will definitely just speak for me um it is because of you i'm not going to say i'm not going to say i'm not going to say i'm not i do what i do um no no no it is it is a thousand percent true when i when i started acting i was i was 10 so this was 1979 so you can remember what whatever you were doing then it was a time what year was it when you were 10 1979 and so all through the 80s versus kramer i mean but but you robert de niro and al pacino you were it and thank god that you guys had you know what you were talking about earlier um with you and and and duvall and hackman talking about you know the weren't just getting the roles uh because all the leading men were taking all the big roles and then you guys the character actors became the leading men and you changed what the definition of good acting was yeah it was no longer this sort of performative posing sort of you know eye candy leading men it was the new bar was well you've got it you got to act you got to bring character acting level of performance to the leading man part and so all those movies that i was watching that you guys were doing um you know you mentioned you know papillon before and and and you know it's just thank you for doing what you did thank you for changing what we define as good acting um and you are the gold standard and you continue to be and the fact that i got a chance to work with you blew my mind the chance that you're on our say the little little podcast here blows my mind too and i i love your friendship i love hearing the things you say and um just thank you from the bottom of my heart can i can i disagree with you or is that no you can't no you can't no you can't disagree i do disagree i do because we didn't invent it there's always was good acting it wasn't called method acting and every actor has a different interpretation of what method acting is and it's wrong because i studied with strasburg who started it there was spencer tracy brilliant actor yeah kim stanley a brilliant actress was just brilliant i mean there was there has always been great acting but for us but for us you know you you you you were it and you are it and um um i i just i can't thank you enough for uh working as hard as you've worked and for being as as talented as as you are thank you and i will and i will say and i will say dustin to echo jason what jason said not just you you've been an incredible inspiration and but but i can tell you like i said that my roommates and i in the in the in the 90s when we were starting out and we were not alone uh you were such an inspiration for so many like jason or like sean or like me but so many others who don't have this platform to be able to say it and and to tell you that that what an inspiration you were and what you did it it was fuel for us to see what you guys were doing to see what you you were doing was was you were the gold standard and are the gold standard i was one of them i was one of those but you know and you know dog day afternoon serpico there's a denaro yeah but that was it i mean three that was that's that's it um and so um thank you oh come here let me show them this is okay this way i can end it who's got dogs i do we all do yeah who else i have what kind of doggy is that that's a mutt a rescue dog that alley found downtown when he was a teeny puppy and he was under a car and it was raining and it was at night and he had no id on him and uh and she gave him to us and we've had him now for 10 years and uh we had to name him and uh we couldn't figure out a name and and lisa suddenly we were looking at and we saw a book that our the great rabbi friend of ours leonard had written and she says how about leonard and his name is leonard i love well leonard leonard beer man what's his name give mr beer man a kiss for us and say hi to your beautiful kids and your beautiful wife lisa please thank you yeah i hope i get to see you guys in real life likewise thank you for your time i mean it's just been wonderful what a thrill thank you so much thanks guys thanks dustin thank you wow wow yeah it made me a little emotional you know you you think about it which i don't know we say it all the time jb you got to work with him but yeah but we're just we're so lucky that that we get to talk to people that affect us so so deeply like you know i mean i don't think uh any one of us are are jaded um we we certainly appreciate these we have heroes we've got these people that we look up to we're we're the three of us are huge fans of so many different different people and some of those people end up on this freaking show i know and beyond hero for me as i said you know he was part of the reason i do what i do uh and it just it gets me a little weepy to be able to speak to him and and as you said we'll have the opportunity we have an opportunity to say to them directly right how much they mean to us and it is such a gift so anybody listening out there that that might feel the same way um we we do it for you as well um it's just such a such a a privilege to be able to spend this time with these people yeah i totally agree me too and i and i and i meant that like it's so true we we we did i know this like the fourth time i've said it but it's because it's hitting me because it is important like how many times we as a young actor was like fucking dustin hawk yeah totally all the time how much we talked about his performances and moments you know you talk about mo hey did you see that thing he did and that moment he had you know we talked about the tootsie that his scene with sydney pollack and i mean that whole movie is full incredible moment but like that we got to talk to him about the russian tea room scene yeah i know we got to talk to dustin hoffman about the tea room scene in tootsie man i know we didn't even talk about kramer versus kramer i maybe cried harder in that film than any other film i've ever seen um and just based on his looks just the way that he looked at her the heartbreak he had with her in the courtroom scenes that movie and the tenderness with his with his boy and i you know it's all performance you know i mean yes the script obviously was beautifully written and the film was well directed obviously and i mean i think it won best picture didn't it but like just his ability to to to be a human for all of us you know as a proxy sitting in the audience you know uh just kind of living through these moments that that he uh that he does is is uh just such a talent yeah yeah there's few there's there's many performances i think we can all point to that made us want to do this and kramer versus kramer was one of them rain man was another and i remember seeing rain man going if i can just if i could be even a fraction of that good like i'd kill to play something like that like all the like there's so many parts even in hook i was like he played captain hook i was like yeah that's so cool you know like he's completely transformed and the way he talked and the way he moved and i don't know it's just he's incredible anyway yeah you know well such a such a sweet man and so funny and um and and lisa um his his part in the movie and i think that's the thing that i think is really amazing is that he's a great partner of so so many years uh such a wonderful person and his kids are fantastic and talented in their own right as well so um that was awesome thank you well yeah no thank you and and i'm going to say in honor of the great dustin uh hoffman i'm going to just say a really simple yeah bye oh a tasteful bye yeah hey uh everybody out there in the audience uh bye bye you guys bye bye baby smartless is 100 organic and artisanally handcrafted by rob armjarv bennett barbaco and michael grant terry smart less