Dropout To Billionaire - Zerodha's Founder Nikhil Kamath's Journey To SUCCESS - FO5| Raj Shamani

So now the 17 year old Nikhil, if you want to build him again, the first thing is you want to start learning how to sell and how to communicate better. So in your experience, what's the best way to learn sales? Sell. I think. Hi, I'm Rajramani and this is figuring out. And however, today's guest is India's youngest self-made billionaire. At the age of 14, he dropped out of school to start his own business, but then joined call center and started learning about trading at the same time. After doing that for a couple of years, here you realize why not I start doing the same thing for other people as well. Since then, there have been no looking back. Along with his brother, his built India's biggest dog brokerage company, Zeroda. All of this happened because he realized that in order to achieve financial freedom, he need to start somewhere. All he wanted to do was to be able to take his decisions independently. He has done it all. He has built a massive portfolio and now he's helping a lot of young start-up. This podcast brought you by CoinSwitch Kuber. CoinSwitch Kuber is India's simplest digital exchange and trading platform for cryptocurrencies, where you can start trading from only Rs 100, a simple fast, safe and secure platform, which allows you to start your crypto journey in the most user-friendly way. I've started my cryptocurrency journey already. Nikhil has started his journey to become financially free when I use starting your journey. Let's not waste much time and start this podcast where we have been talking about his journey to build Zeroda, his way up from zero to becoming a billionaire and how Indians can make money. And also, we've talked about whether you should listen to news channels giving you tips about what stock to buy or no. Let's get started. This is figuring out. Thanks for doing this again, man. Thank you, Raj. You are one of our favorite guests. Not in just terms of let me say, not just because I really, really like your journey and what you have done. Also, because when you see numbers on the podcast, he always is one of the highest download so far both the reasons I really like you. But I want to start. Well, let's go back to the time when you started. Okay. And last one you told me that you moved out of the house at what age did you move up? I was about 17 when I did. And why? Traditional middle class family. I was working two jobs back then. I used to work at a call center and I would trade the markets in the morning. 17. Yeah. Okay. And I figured out this way of fudging a bird certificate and getting a job at 17 instead of 18. And there's a call center in Bangalore called 24 bar seven. Okay. Brilliant company. When I joined, they had a few hundred employees. When I quit, they had maybe 10,000 employees. This is like the BPO boom era in India, right? Early 2000. Yeah. So great fun. The office was far from where I work. Also, I wanted the freedom of not having to tell someone what you're doing all the time, which happens in a traditional household in one way or another. And I think those things in combination, the time I saved and traveled and the independence, both of them nudged me towards more. So were you making enough to that like call you got out of was is after you decided that you want to move out and then you were like, okay, let's figure out something to make money. No, I had the job. Sorry. I got a salary. It doesn't seem like a lot now, but back then it was reasonable. I used to the first salary I had at a call center. I think was like 8,500 rupees. I was a 17 year old boy. If you're sharing a home with three or four people, you're still left with a few thousand rupees. And I'm talking about 17, 18 years ago to do, right? Money went a lot further. You could go to a nice bar and buy a beer for 60 rupees or 70 rupees, unlike today. So it was not a bad life. I made a little bit of money trading on the side, but at the very beginning trading was very much making money for a bit, consistently for six months, and then losing it all on one day and then starting all over again. And using the savings of your salary to kind of be your next pool of capital to start trading with again. I used to trade options, okay? Okay. So in trading, there is an instrument called options. There's a segment of trading called derivatives. There are futures and options. Essentially, what they do is they give you leverage. If you had a hundred rupees with you, you can, in one way, buying equity by 100 rupees worth of reliance, for example, but through options, you could buy a thousand rupees worth of reliance with a hundred bucks. Oh, so 10x or 40. You could get as much as 30x, 40x, 50x back in the day. Even today. Today it's lower, but there is still an inherent element of leverage. Very addictive. It's not the smart, investing, long-term kind of stuff. This is like punting on random things, intraday, a dozen times every day and trying to make money. So fun all around. I had fun at my evening job, which was I used to do a UK shift, okay? I would sell personal accidental health insurance for a company called Stonebridge in UK. So it was essentially calling old British people between 5 pm to like 1 pm in the night, reading a script and trying to sell them insurance. Both jobs I would say I had fun in. Okay, so now, before we actually move to the part where you talk about trading, financial literacy and all of that, let's start with from a guy who's 17-year old, just like you want to make it big and is starting out and also wants the freedom at the same time. So we start from that journey, like what next, what next. But very important question, that how did you sell at the time of like when you were selling the insurance? I was quite good. You were good. What did you do? Like can you show us the little sneak peek of what you did? Sure, sure. So we were trained in mimicking the British accent. Okay. Like we had like one month, two months of. Can you do that now? No, but then the crazy thing is in material of how much training who had the minute someone picked up the phone, they would always know it's an Indian calling. So we would just be in this middle ground where you don't sound Indian, you don't sound British, but you sound like this awkward person who's saying words in different manner. So if I were to playback those recordings, they would sound really stupid. Essentially the script went high. My name is this. We always had a partner channel through which we would sell. Okay. We would be like, okay, you're a client of Barclays. We're offering you the Stonebridge Insurance Plan. You know, do you have any pre-existing medical condition? There were some things which would make the insurance void. We had to ask that. The biggest metric here was when you were selling. You had a 60 day free period during which you could cancel the insurance plan if you don't want it. So these hard sold that like mad. You know, we were like, this is free while you're not buying it. In 60 days, if you don't like it, you don't have to continue with the product. But I think it was decent at sales. I did. There wasn't much that I could do you know at the end of the day, we're reading office script, but the little bit that you could change and tweak and try to build a rapport with the client, I was fairly decent at. So that's everybody says this. And I've seen this with many people that you need to learn sales. You and most of the people we talk to who have made it big and good in their lives, they are predominantly have been sales people in their lives at one point of life at one point of time, right? And that's what you also did. So is there anything you want to tell people who are just starting out? Do you think it's a very important skill to learn? Totally. Totally. I think outside of, you know, one of the most important skills, which you believe in. Probably selling and being able to communicate clearly is so important. We're in that era where being able to remember and regurgitate what you have learned has lost relevance because everybody has access to the internet. Anything that you want to look up, you can look up instantly and say it out. Yeah. The key here is to be able to interpret that and communicate it well. And for that, I think communication skill and sales ability is a cardinal to being successful, either at a job or as an entrepreneur today. Sell. I think I'm from the School of Thought where most things are learned well when you do them versus when you read about them. I mean, reading about them will give you nuances and learnings from people who have tried, attempted and succeeded or failed before. But I'm a fairly pragmatic person and I like learning from experiences. So try to sell. and you will learn from that. I would say. So I have a contrary belief to that. I mean, I also believe the same thing that you need to sell. But there's a structure which I think if you learn about that structure, your journey will cut down short. And so there's one thing which I believe in, like if you want to sell, sales is very easy when you learn, when you read about it. But when you do about it, it's it's fucking hard. Right. And the easy part is sales is just it's divided into three parts. Number one is preparation. Like are you prepared to sell or like do you have the product which is ready to to be sold? That's number one. Number two is emotion. And there are only two emotions either fear or aspiration. Like you need to press one and third is urgency. So first is preparation, then emotion and then urgency. If you can do that, then I think you can sell pretty much anything. Do you agree to that or there's lot more to add? I agree with you on some level. But yeah, there are probably many things you can add to that. You need to be confident when you're selling. You need to even if you do not believe in the product that you're selling, you need to appear like you do. You need to have, you know, some amount of confidence. In terms of knowledge, I totally agree that you need to know everything about the product that you're selling. Often you can be a great salesman, but you don't know that one question your customer will ask you. If you don't, then he might no longer buy from you. The odds of him not buying goes up significantly. So that's probably important too. That's that's that's true. I think confident turns around things for you. Now 17-year-old nickel is want to want to become confident, started selling, started selling insurance. What's the next step? What did you do next? After you, like you were at the call center, right? Nothing. Did it for a while? Okay. Company grew, got lucky and grew along with the company. Even though I did nothing special, a few people, my like manager and my supervisor and stuff like that, I started managing their money as well. Because you were making other trading. So they promoted me a few times. They made me a team leader and I did, I played many different roles in the company. At one point we needed a lot of new people. So I was taking taking care of recruitment and I would meet as many as 500 people in a day and I had to hire a hundred out of those 500 people in material of how bad they were. So there have been examples. I'll tell you like once I went to a times job fair, I'm talking about like again like 16, 17 years ago. We put out a add to recruit people, a thousand people showed up. But 85% of the crowd could not speak a word of English. There were people who had applied to be a watchman, to be a nurse. They were all just sitting in one room. But we started recruitment at that scale and that was quite intriguing. A good learning experience. You get to meet many different people every day. So I had fun with that to the extent that I could. Along the way I used to trade, trading became a bit more consistent when I was about 19, 19 and a half years old. Got a bit of confidence, started managing money for third party for friends and family essentially. I have a brother who used to trade as well. So we both kind of joined hands and started a company called Kamath Associates. When was this now? About 15 years ago. 14, 14, 15 years ago. Where did you learn trading? 17 around that age. No, how did you learn it? Basically, there was no formal learning. I started trading. I lost money sometimes. I'm still learning to a certain extent and hopefully at some point, at some point in life, I really hope I will be at that point where I can sit down and say, I have learned trading hasn't happened yet. Every day, the markets teach you why nobody can predict what will happen. The minute you take things for granted in the stock markets, they fight back in the ruin everything. It's a constantly evolving industry to the extent that every day is different from the next. You just have to learn to change. That in my view is whatever I've learned in the time that I've been in the markets. So started Kamath Associates, managed money. We were sub-brokers to some brokers out there, Betowell, reliance money and stuff like that. Did that for a couple of years? We were paying too much in commission, as much as quarter percent, half a percent. We decided to start a broker firm of our own to save cost. When we started the broker firm, the intention was that Nithin will focus more on acquiring clientele and building the broker firm and I will spend more time on trading and asset management and risk management and stuff like that. Worked well for us. We have continued in one way or another in similar forms for many years since we started. I think we started with that flat fee model at 20 bucks. Everybody back then was charging half a percent, one percent. Here we were saying give us 20 bucks by shares worth one crore, ten crore whatever. We only charge you 20 bucks. Customers who were used to a traditional broker back then really appreciated that. They started coming on board. FinTech, anything FinTech, money management at the end of the day is a business of credibility and it takes a certain amount of time to become credible. The first couple of years until we got a few tens of thousands of lines, selling was harder. We had a good team who did a great job and then things in one way or another once we got credible have scaled organic. We talked about it in last podcast as well about how organic is easier to agree with. But a lot of people say that you should invest not trade. I would agree with them. Why would you say that? What do you prefer like investing or trading or both? I prefer trading. Okay. But I would assume most people would do better off with their capital if they were investing. So when you're investing and you have a certain amount of a certain corpus of capital with you, you can make 15% a year but even that 15% in 4-5 years will double your net capital. In trading, the problem here lies is that's great advice. Everybody says that. Invest, don't trade, make 15% a year. Your money will compound in 20 years. You'll have this huge pile of equity. The problem is for many people who are not starting off with a nest egg, they can't really afford to do that. If I have 50,000 rupees that I'm starting with and I want to grow it into something big, I can't really invest and make money. So circumstances were like that back then and I had to grow a small pool of capital, hence trading, leverage, options, derivatives, all of that were what I was attracted to. But a broader answer to that question, out of 10 people who trade maybe 8 lose money, out of 10 people who invest maybe 3 lose money or 4 lose money. So if you were to ask me advice on if one should be a trader or investor, for that reason I would say investor. So chances of you succeeding is much higher and okay. So let's say people here who are listening to this podcast are the risky ones. They are the ones who are the bold ones and they want to get into trading. What are these two or three mistakes they should avoid as a young person? Because when you're young, your biggest problem is you don't have money to start investing. It's like for everyone. And for a lot of reasons, your income is not high, be your aspirations are very high, see you want to impress a lot of people, do a lot of shit, so you don't have a lot of money. That's actually a tough one. The question essentially, which I typically would not answer is, how to trade with leverage and then not lose too much money to pick. I think one very important thing, it sounds a lot simpler than it actually is, is stick to the trend. If you spend a certain amount of time in the market, see a very inept beginner will look at the price of two stocks at 100 bucks. Okay. If yesterday the price of one stock went from 100 to 150 and the other stock went from 100 to 100 to 190, he would naturally be inclined to buy what is at 90 today. Because he will think, take it now. the other one has gone to 90. The odds of it going up are higher. That typically does not work out. You have to stick to the trend in the prevailing momentum in the market. Watch a stock for a certain amount of time if something has gone from 100 to 110 to 150 to 200. Buy it while it's in that trend and try to exit it before the trend ends. So typically a good way to do this would be enter at 150, keep a stop loss of 10, 20 percent in a target of 50, 60 percent. But enter the transaction with a stop loss in a target, which is predefined in one manner or another. So now, okay. So now when you talk about trends, stop loss, all of these things, right? Every day newspaper, like giving a really reputed one, you get these target prices. You get should one fall into that or no. See, you have to understand this. At the end of the day, if nobody knows what will happen tomorrow, right? Absolutely no one. If I knew what is going to happen tomorrow, I would not be sitting and talking to newspapers and spending my time on TV channels. I would be buying and selling. Generally, I advise which is available for free in any of these mediums does not really work. I had this experiment where I watch a TV channel. Let me not name them, but I had picked all the calls they've given in a one month period and aggregated them. And if you did the opposite of what everybody was telling you to do, you'd have probably made money. And that would be true for many time periods and many TV channels, both in India domestically and even abroad. Make your own calls, pick your own stocks, don't rely on any tip, don't rely on any research, especially the crappiest of tips are the SMS ones. Yes. With generally, someone manipulating a company or trying to offload something they've run up previously, these are things you should just block. You should not even waste your time looking at. So, no, I'm not a fan of tipsters or following advice in that way. You have to make up your own mind and take your own calls. Take your own call, take your own like own it, what you're doing. A lot of people have started entering right now only. In last, before like after the pandemic, all of these things have, did you face any difficulty explaining people that you should do this because that's how your company would make more or like get more to live. Or it was all organic, which is people coming in and you were the best one out there. That's why people do. We've always been execution only and we have shied away from telling people what to do or what not to do. For the lack of a better way to explain it, it's because we don't know what will happen either. If you were to ask me, Nikhil, what do I buy and sell in three months, I'd be like, I wish I knew. If I knew, I would be buying it, not telling you. The first thought would be I wish I knew. But nobody knows, right? Look at sectors like you work in the FMCG industry. Maybe you understand it better than I do. Look at what is happening on the floor of your factory. Is the demand going up? Find sectors like that where you have some kind of a connection with. Go down to the floor, read what is happening and try to invest like that that's probably a better approach than taking a tip of some true. I like doing the ground level work. Okay. Now, talking about ground level, talking money, talking on young people. India is a country which is still we are considered as a developing nation. Who are people trying to do something, right? We have always attached as those, which is true, which is true. But now these days when I meet people, there are aspirations have gone up. But still people are not financially literate. People don't know how to make money. Why is that? Why do you feel is the reason? Like, why are we still stuck to this? Well, see, when you look at our country broadly in terms of GDP per capita, I don't know the exact number, but I'm guessing it would be somewhere around $3,000 per person. Say China is five times or four times as much at $12, $13,000. The Western countries are probably about $30,000. So we've not had very much money relative to a global scale in our history up until now. So how does somebody know how to manage money if a vast majority of our country has not had the opportunity to earn a really decent wage up until now? So why financial literacy is lower in India is a no-brainer because people have historically not had the money. Like, a vast majority of our country still does not have the money to invest. All these things that I'm talking about, diversification, trade, a certain thing, even things like open a demand account or a bank account, we're talking to a very small subset of people, right? It's not what India truly is. It's a pity, it has to change and there have to be more opportunities for people to get out of whatever they are in and do jobs that pay more, do jobs that are more fulfilling and lead a lifestyle where they have access to many different things. Hopefully that happens. We can't do much about it. I could even assign some blame in one way or another to our system of pedagogy, our education system. We end up teaching a kid how to get a job and we spend 10, 15 years doing that. But we don't spend any time teaching him how to manage the money he gets. Once he gets a job and starts earning a wage. So that definitely has to change too. It has started a much younger age, I feel. I think it has to be thought in middle school, in high school, practically how to manage money, what is a bond, how do companies go IPO? How is the equity market design? How does one invest in gold? What are the fundamentals of commodities? These are great subjects for us to teach our kids and the future generations of tomorrow. And I think it's something that should be implemented at a much younger age. People who are listening to this, how can they learn about all of this? Well, online, see the advent of internet has opened up so much, right? Every single word that I said just now, you could probably Google or YouTube and you would find 100 times more information than you actually need. So seek out these things online. There are plenty of people who are providing access to great quality education, material for free. I remember I still look up Corsera a lot. They keep updating. I think they're a great place. I'm sure there are many others like that where you can go learn or you're on your free courses, free stuff, free YouTube, all of these things. Like this is everybody's talking about it. I think anyone who has done significantly good in their lives, they talk about it. They talk about this. Hey, you're making money putting out free content. Yeah. Why are you complaining? I'm not complaining. I'm not complaining. I'm talking about this everywhere where there's a need and you want to actually, like, you feel like there's something needs to be done. Even if you operate in that area and you provide something for free, there's an opportunity to make a lot of money. And that's what that's what technically we are doing in my little experience with the paid education apps in India. Honestly, the experience is abysmal. It's horrible. People charge more money for what is available freely online in a package which is worse off than the freely available stuff online. So there's a case to be made. That's that's not completely true. Yeah, come on. I have learned one of my, like the the best things I've learned are because of few paid courses which I have picked up. Which one? So there's one from Rachnaya. Rachnaya Ranadeesh, he's a YouTuber. She has done it today. I'm not talking about individualistic people like that. I'm talking about large interviews. Yeah. So I think individuals need to be paid. Exactly. And individual people, I believe when they are paid, they give you the best knowledge because they are accountable. There's this one brand, right? They're accountable that they know they won't be able to make more money. It's like a business, right? If they won't satisfy their existing customers. But last time just taking to the last segment of the conversation is last time we talked about books and you spoke about philosophy. Yeah. And you love philosophy. You talk about books which has stood out for years, for decades. What's this specific philosophy in life which has helped you a lot? Is there something which I think curiosity about all else. If you go back to the very first philosophers of the world, they were not preaching anything. There were people who were questioning everything. questioning because they had a sense of curiosity and no fear about asking questions about things like religion, about God, about the human anatomy, about everything, right? I think that curiosity element is so underappreciated. Like even when you're as an entrepreneur working with people, that ability for people to ask you questions without worrying about how they look to their peer group and worry about the fact that you know you suddenly think that they don't know something to inculcate curiosity and that innate curiosity where you ask about everything, I think is very important. Humans are like that, we are like that when we are children, we develop super big egos as we grow up and it goes away but going back to that beginning I think is a good thing. It's also because we are too, like we are not confident about ourselves, we are only so no matter who you mean, they're confident in front of some people and they're under confident in front of others. So the person, the in front of the people who, let's say, I should be asking really dumb and stupid questions out of my curiosity, I wouldn't. And I will go ask questions in a group where I know that I won't, I'm not going to get the right answers which I really need. So why do you feel is the reason? Why are we so guarded? Why is this feeling that we need to show ourselves that we are really good? Let's say if I'm talking in a podcast like right now, I have this constant pressure like in front of my audience in front of you, I need to be smart or as nobody's going to listen to me, you're not going to give your time next time, you know, this constantly it's there. And because of that, we fuck up. That's how we are. That's how we've always been. If you go back in time, you pick when we were hunters, the strongest, the biggest man in the group was the most powerful guy and humans have never been altruistic. We always want to be relatively superior to our peer group in whatever, in hunting, in farming, in when society became capitalistic, it's about money. When we were communist, it was about proximity to power in one way or another or you're standing in a certain army. In the future and today at some level, the new cool is becoming intelligence and knowledge. Even though we are still in a capitalistic environment, which I believe is slowly nudging on to its socialism in one way or another, because of the problems with things like wealth disparity and the fact that dot 1% of the world now has as much as 90% of the world. Historically, whenever that happened, imagine a kingdom in India, imagine a Raja, he could be benevolent, he could be a nutcase dictator, whatever, but if he had 70% of the wealth of the kingdom that he ruled over was okay. But the minute he had 99.99% of what belonged to the kingdom, the subjects of the kingdom went to his door slaughtered him and they put someone else in power. We are getting to that point in our society, not just in India, across the world. I don't know if you caught what's happening in China, what the guy, the premier said a couple of days back, very once wealthy people to have less money and more people to have wealth, I think society will move in that direction. Hence I say we are moving from capitalism to socialism in one way or another, and that will happen in probably it's inevitable. In all fairness, we probably go there, then the desire and the drive for innovation goes down significantly and we come back into a capitalistic society in another 50, 100, 500 years, whatever, I don't know, it's like a circle. Yeah, life is a circle in every domain. So what's going to be the next superpower? Irrelevant, I think the thing you need to worry about is in our lifetime, like how much time do we have left? I'm 34, you're 26, 27, 25, 25, so let's say we have 50 years, you want status quo to be maintained for 50 years. You never want to be stuck in the transitionary environment where the change actually is happening because those 30, 40, 50 years are going to probably going to be horrible. And by horrible, there's a quote by I think I read in one of the books where it was by someone else, but I heard Vincent Churchill quoting it is the problem with socialism is socialism and the problem with capitalism is the capitalist. So do you also believe that socialism is a problem? Actually seeing that change, like I feel more so in Bangalore than in other cities, the everybody wants to be cool, right? Like I was telling you Hunter wanted this gardener or whatever, farmer wanted something. So today's capitalistic, their definition of cool at some level is transitioning from holding wealth to being considered a philanthropist in society. Giving away is becoming cool, holding is becoming less cool. I see that a lot in Bangalore, if you were to go to a dinner party tomorrow, the person who is most respected will not be the richest person. It will be the person who has done more for society for community, given away more. Like all these people in Bangalore, from Azeem Premji to Kiran and all these people, right? They're so well-renowned and so respected because because of that, because society is changing towards that. That I think is the key to make giving away wealth cool. We all have to understand that this wealth disparate is horrible for the world, right? Outside of the fact that X amount of people are unhappy, it's not sustainable. The government has to actively take steps to mitigate it. I'll give you one example. We can go into the subject and talk for hours, but everywhere from America to UK, they all have inheritance taxes. In UK, they call it estate taxes, in South Korea, they call it something. But each time somebody dies and gives away his wealth to his kid, he has to pay the state 30%, 40%, there are high property taxes. If you own a land, if you own a apartment in Bombay today, which is worth 100 crores or whatever, I'm sure you're not even paying 1% of the value of that, that house every year as property tax. These are ways in which you bring down this disparity. Has it worked in the West? Not yet. But is it a step in the right direction? Probably. We need to mimic those things in India. Now, imagine tomorrow, after Mukesh Ambani, Gautam Adani, and four or five people after their time, when they give their wealth to their kids, if they have to pay 40% towards bettering the country, I think those people will be happy, and it will change the country tremendously because that's a constant redistribution of wealth. I would always better than doing better relative to income taxes. Now, tomorrow, if I increase Raja's income tax lab from 40% to 55%, 60%, you would be less inclined to work as much. But when you're dying, if you have to leave money to your kids, then you're paying tax, I don't think it will be such a big deterrent as increasing your income taxes. And that might be a better solution. But something has to be done. I think these are the first steps, huge inheritance tax, by huge, I mean, 20%, 25% to start with, huge property tax, and you slowly build off that. That's a really good perspective to think about, and that might actually help our country take towards a better, better tomorrow. I mean, another big thing is removing the leakages, that has to happen at some point. The taxation money has to be better utilized with no leakages whatsoever. I was reading about it one book. I don't know how much you agree to this thing. Leakages are only going to stop when people who are at power are well fed. Do you think that that's true? Well, or do you think like the greed is never going to stop? I would agree with that if people who have ex amount of food feel satiated in one way or another. But human nature is not like that. The more you have, the more you win. So I would not I would not agree to agree to this point. Like it's completely irrelevant. Yeah, good. Let's go to the last section of this podcast. This is a fun section. And the whole objective of this section is, I want people to know that you're really normal. So it's like, we're going to take your job interview. Okay. So let's imagine you were supposed to get hired by Zeroda and this is your interview. Yeah. Okay. I'm going to ask you five basic questions, which are we actually went out to Google, start off with no graduation, school We actually went out to Google and search like the most basic questions you can ask in a job interview. Okay. So number one, there you go. You're ready for it. You have to like answer like quickly. So the first question is, who Who is Nikhil Kamath outside his CV or outside what people know about him? Nice guy, I pay a huge importance to being nice, I feel like we give so many different traits, so much credit, you know, everything from integrity to hard working to whatever we try, technically sound. At the end of the day, if you were like 50% better than him, but you're nicer and I like working with you, I will work with you, I think that niceness is very underappreciated and I think my biggest privilege in life is picking who I work with and surrounding myself with nice people. So in that. Well, it was supposed to be an interview, I got my validation. Okay, question two, why do you want to work at Zeroda? It's a cool company, fun people. Fun people, cool company. Yeah, fun people, see, I can tell you many things we're trying to change the world in this, but you know, it's bullshit, right? At the end of the day, it's a company which is trying to do a good, transparent job in a certain industry and turn a profit. But I would want to work in Zeroda because I like the people there. All right. One of them happens to be Nikhil, are you Instagram? I came to. All right. What do you do after office hours? On a typical weekly, I have calls like which keep going on and zoom things in the evening. One thing I try to do is go to the gym, which I pretty much do three or four days a week at nine or 10 p.m. Weekends I go catch up with a friend, I play a sport, I have a drink, I watch what sport do you play? Batman, football, I watch a lot of TV off ladies and trying to avoid. So I have two main addictions, either a book or a TV show. So at any point, I'll be on a TV show and on a book and I'll, you know, alternate between the two. What's your biggest weakness? Insecurities like we were discussing about, yeah, so I have more than normal number of insecurities. Okay. Yeah. And the last question is, if you were to become the assistant for anyone in the world, yeah. Okay. Who would it be and how much would you charge? What would be your early rate as an executive assistant for someone? So it goes into directions. I would pick A because of power or B because of money. If it had to be because of money, I would probably want to be Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or one of these guys they're assistant because I would, you know, hopefully they are benevolent capitalistic. They would pay me well. But if it had to be power, it would probably be Modi Ji or Biden or someone. Yeah. Biden somehow does not project power, maybe put in something like that, you know, maybe that, you know, is the best of both worlds and the money and power. Oh, put these names actually smart pick. And how much would you charge him as an assistant? Whatever he gives me. Okay. It's the access to it within, right? Well, thanks a lot for doing this, but before we end this, I really want to have this question for me. Yeah. It's what are the TV shows you're watching? Which one is a good one? I can watch and take inspiration. Somebody, a friend of mine recommended Bosch on Amazon Prime Bosch, what is it? A detective show about LAPD. It's a bit like Sherlock Holmes, but like a American version shot in today in the 2020s. I like it. It's good. But it's long. There are six seasons with 10 episodes per se. Oh, that's for Netflix generations, not long. It's not long. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for doing this. I hope you enjoyed and I did. I hope we got like, I think we got like a lot of stuff like a juicy stuff as well. Yeah. We're going to cut them and make it so juicy, you're going to love it. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for writing knowledge and sharing your journey candidly with us. See you in the next episode.