Driving Innovation at the Nation’s Largest Lawyers’ Malpractice Insurer ALPS with David Bell form ALPS

On this episode of the InsureTechGeek podcast, we're talking about driving innovation at the nation's largest lawyers malpractice insurer with David Bell from Alps. The InsureTechGeek podcast is all about technology that's transforming and disrupting the insurance world. We'll be interviewing guests and doing deep dives into specific tech we see changing the industry. We're taking you on a journey through insurance tech, so enjoy the ride and geek out. Tara, this week's episode sponsor is revolutionizing the world of workers' compensation claims and policy management. Tara's cutting-edge platform empowers insurers with comprehensive benchmarking tools, robust management systems, and an integrated ancillary services marketplace. Discover how Tara is driving innovation and efficiency in [email protected]. And we are back with another great episode of the InsureTechGeek podcast. I am James Venom, your InsureTechGeek here in beautiful College of Station Texas. That's that's right. We call it God's Country. You can call it Aggieland with me today from a very different place, but also the home of big skies and wide open spaces. Mr. David Bell from Montana. How's it going, David? It's going great. Thanks for having me here. I'm not going to sing along with you there, but it's fun to be at a on a podcast that is unapologetically geek-centric. Yes, we are. Geek is in the name. I view geek as a badge of honor. That's why I've always kept it in there. You know, David, I just presented in Montana. I was in Billings and as my opener, I talked about the things that are similar about Texas and Montana. You know, we're everything's bigger in Texas and it's what's called big skies, right? So they say in Montana, big skies, big sky country, big sky country. So big, okay, so that's kind of similar. A lot of people drive trucks. I mean, you go to average parking lot here, tons of trucks. Same in Montana. Same in Montana. A lot of times of the year, the truck's the only thing that's going to get you through. Exactly, exactly. Taylor Sheridan has significant operations in both of our states, where he produces my favorite shows. True. Indeed. Yeah, lots of, lots of prequels and sequels and everything they can ring out of that storyline. Yep. And he and some of his buddies bought the Four Sixes Ranch here in Texas. So he films a lot there, films a lot in Austin. Also, of course, has filmed a ton in Montana. I'm sure there's mixed feelings about him in Montana, right? Yeah, I think there, years ago we used to say that a river runs through it, ruin fly fishing in Montana. And now some people like to say that Yellowstone just ruined Montana. Just ruined all Montana. So like, it's like all right now. Yeah, but it is fun to travel around the country and even in different parts of the world. And almost predictably, the first thing people ask is, is it really like that? And so Yellowstone certainly has shown a lot of the beautiful landscape that we live in here, even if it does depict the lifestyle of Montana with a bit of hyperbole. Well, it's got to sell on TV, right? It's got to be entertaining and exciting. And it does nothing if not that, right? Of course, I love all of Sheridan's stuff. So I'm a huge fan of Tulsa King with Sylvester Stallone, which I thought was just phenomenal. So I'm a big fan of the guy. Also common between Montana and Texas, both big football states, right? Indeed. Yeah, now your big rivalry there is what Montana, Montana State. Is that right? That's right. The University of Montana Grizzlies, which is where I'm at here in Missoula, Montana. And then the Montana State Bobcats, which are in Bozeman at the Montana State, both great schools. I tend to be a little preferential to the Grizz, as you might imagine. I can imagine that. So were you born and raised up there? Is this your home state? I wasn't. I was born in Florida, actually in Miami, kind of grew up nomadically, lived in different states around the country, and then came to college here after having weighted tables in Jackson, Hawaii, Oming for the summer and fell in love with the West, came out here for school, and then joined CHUB out of college. And I was back in back in the CHUB training program and bounced around different parts of the country. And then returned after having lived in different places around the country in the world, returned to Montana with my wife, who is from here, her family, our original homesteaders, probably much more reminiscent of the Taylor Sheridan storyline. And so Brittany and I decided to move back to Montana in 2012 from Bermuda, where we had lived for over a decade. Well, I can't think of a bigger transition than Bermuda to Montana if you're in the Western Hemisphere. That's a big shift. Culturally, climatically, economically, I mean, it is, it spans again. We knew what we were coming back to, which was great, but it was nothing if not a change. Yeah, it's like shocking, right? This weekend, this weekend, I got the privilege of going to Mexico City for the second time in a couple of years. And it was funny, because it's an hour and 45 minute flight from Houston to Mexico City. And it's a complete world away, right? Like it's, it's so close yet so far away. And so it's funny how sometimes that is even, you know, from Bermuda to Montana, it's not all the way across what is a long way away. They are very distant from each other. But they are a world apart in a lot of areas. I mean, Bermuda is a major insurance haven, which is obviously why you were there, correct? Correct. Yep. I went over when Chubb and AIG and Goldman Sachs Capital Partners collectively founded AWAC at the time, Allied World. And so we went over in early 2002 to start AWAC. So I mean, that's a, that's a pretty neat rise, though, because you were exact protection manager at Chubb, right? And then you, and then you went into SVP of Goldman Professional Lines and Allied World Assurance. And you ended up being the chief operating officer there for like five years. So I mean, you, that was a pretty rapid rise. Like what was, what did Allied World Assurance do? It was it, was it the, it was a, it was a Bermuda captive or like, what was, what was the point of that? It was a, it was a global, it was and remains, it was bought by Fairfax. So it still operates under the Allied World brand, but is a wholly owned subsidiary of Fairfax, which is a Canadian domicile public company, great company. And, but, but AWAC was started to fill the, the vacuum that occurred with the just unprecedented loss of life and property in 9/11. And so it was, what's affectionately referred to as the class of 2001, where as, as has happened in several cycles of post event, capital flows into Bermuda because you can start a new company in a fraction of the time, as it would take to tip up a company in domestically, since we are regulated by each of the 50 states independently. Yeah, that's because their, their laws are so much more amenable to getting things up and running. Yeah, you can, you tip it up and you, and the business that you do domestically, you pay a federal excise tax and it does become kind of one stop shopping and you end up seeing Bermuda's had cycles, but you certainly end up seeing significant capital inflows in the wake of major events, which was, you know, Hurricane Andrew, 9/11, Katrina Rita Wilma with the KRW events. And so you, you definitely, if you look at the, at the capital inflows to Bermuda, you can see a high, high correlation with those post event scenarios. That's awesome. Yeah, I, I, that's a, that's really neat. Well, in 2012, you left being COO to be president and CEO of Alps. Like what, first off, what is ALPS Alps? What does that, what does that company do? Yeah, so Alps is, Alps has been for since its origin, which was founded in the wake of the SNL crisis when there was a, a really a kind of a violent vacuum of commercially available malpractice insurance, particularly for small firms, but really it was a crisis for, for all lawyers professional liability, but it was, it was especially acute for small firms and rural communities. So Alps was founded as one of what's called the Nebricos National Association of Bar related insurance companies. There's, there's several of them still around, most of them single state. And, and I really, frankly, I knew of the CEO, my predecessor, the founder of the company, I knew and liked him as I had worked to try to help stimulate the industry of insurance in the state of Montana, even from afar, when I was on the board of plus and otherwise, but I hadn't thought about working here. And then, as you pointed out, we, Brittany and I decided to move back to Montana in 2012, I was, we had redomesticated Allied world to Switzerland. I was in New York a lot, and it was just, it was becoming more, more of a challenge to kind of run the rhythm. So we decided to come back to Montana. I thought I was going to go to politics or business or something like that. And then, whether it was serendipity or divinity or whatever was at play, the opportunity to come and join this company at a, at a, at what was a pivotal point in this company's life cycle, it had, it had gone through a problematic acquisition. And so it created a kind of an inflection point. And next thing you know, the best laid plans here, we, here we are. And it's been, now we're 13 years later, and it's been nothing but a blessing and a great ride. And I've made so many great friends and have had, have been able to raise our kids. Our kids were first grade in kindergarten when we moved back here. And now they're both off and in college. Yeah. So this is the childhood they remember. I mean, you don't really remember much before kindergarten as a kid, right? You remember, you remember everything from grades going on. Well, Alps is like, it is the nation's leader in insurance for, for single lawyer law firms and small law firms, right? So it's, it's, it's, it's the total and it's like a bop for a, for a law firm, essentially. Yeah, it's direct. Yeah. And we do, we do sell bops and, and all of the products that small law firms, commercial products that small law firms need, but the specialty of Alps and its origin has been the LPL, the Ligumau practice. But I think, but what, what differentiated Alps for so long is that it's been singularly focused on the direct channel. We, we, this year in April, we bought lawyer care from pro assurance. So we now have a broker channel and brand as well. But the origin of Alps was, was really focused on the direct side. Yeah, that's, that's hard. I mean, it's, it's been interesting on this show. We've covered a lot of insure texts that have started up with the goal of disintermediating brokers and going direct with whatever line of business. You look at some of the bigger ones, they were large personal lines, property carriers and, and rental insurance carriers that decided, Hey, we're going to go direct. And a lot of them have really fallen flat on their face and had to pivot their, their, their entire distribution model into, into, into pursuing brokers, because of how expensive it is in certain lines of business to compete for mind sharing for distribution, especially in their case, their marketing costs just almost drove them out of business in a lot of these cases, because it was just so expensive to buy AdWords online and compete against the major national brands for personal lines policies. This is not personal lines, right? This is commercial lines, you're selling to lawyers. So I mean, you can go to probably, you know, you and the ABA are probably like best friends, as far as speaking and attending events and exhibiting, I assume you have a, you have a niche audience. So you can really focus your distribution dollars, right? We do, but you know, the challenges that the insure texts face are, are challenges that we face as well, because as a direct for the direct side anyway, the outside, because it is expensive. And I think, I think we can all acknowledge that the way that particularly commercial insurance trades in our industry is grossly inefficient and ripe for innovation. And these insure texts, I think, brought a reasonable thesis to the table that if you build a, a system that provides a easier, smoother experience for the consumer that, that they will abandon the way that this business has traded for as long as it's traded and moved to that. And I think that that's proven to be a much more difficult ask than anyone really expected. I do think that it's probably true for this, particularly for the small, low premium, low commission business. And that's kind of the niche where we operate. It's more true there because there's not a lot of competition from brokers in that business, because it's not very attractive business for brokers, but finding, finding your prospects, courting them, contacting them, courting them many times over a multi-year process for a $2,000 policy. And then, and then having them, you know, go out of business or retire or leave the practice two years later, it's, there's a lot of friction in the operational model. So it's a challenge. And so it's also a blessing because it's, because it's a challenge, it's not a commodity and not everybody tries to rush into it. And so I think what we've tried to do is, is figure out what we're good at, establish that niche, and then press the accelerator. And we've been, we've been pretty fortunate. We've got a lot of really good people here at Alps that think about how to make the experience better for our customers day in and day out. Well, Matt, and that involves all the digital properties too, right? I mean, applying for the policy, renewing the policy. Of course, I love on your website, biggest, brightest buttons are apply now and renew. So you're, you're, and, you know, you're definitely, you're featuring your trust pilot scores, you know, you do some, you do some obvious things that tech companies do with their websites, which is you've made it very conversion focused, right? That's right. And, and like your three major action items you'd want to do, which is apply renew and report a claim are all easily viewable and accessible. So you, you pass a lot of the tests for a, for an insure tech. Sure. Did you, did you have to put a lot of work into that process of the, of the application to try and make it, you know, less questions, less burdensome for all these law firms, since you only work in one area, that you put a lot of user experience time into the initial application and try and chop down the pain point that that usually is for folks. Absolutely. And it's not a past tense question. It's, it's a constant ongoing. I mean, we, we, we watch the data on where our customers slow down or get stuck on our application process. And we rephrase questions, move around questions based on where we show, where we show early indication of rates. And so you have to put your thumb firmly pressed on the pulse of consumer behavior and meet them where they're at to lowest, to lower the abandonment. Nothing, nothing is worse than spending a lot of time and a lot of money to bring a customer across the threshold of your doorstep and then have them abandon the process halfway through, because something about the experience you provide, it doesn't make entire sense to them. We've got folks around here who are vigilant on understanding that and making adjustments. And we're constantly making those adjustments. Yeah, well, you sound like a tech company right now put pipeline abandonment is like every tech CEO's worst nightmare, right? Because you, because you're just your cost per click and your cost per lead, you know, really, really drive you crazy. And then you get them, you know, 60% of the way through through signing up and they leave. And you're like, Oh my gosh, what, what on earth did we do now? And of course, if you get in, do y'all get into split testing, where you're actually split testing button colors and user interface design on the application itself? Absolutely, there's very few things that we do that we don't A/B test. And we do them in different parts of the country with different profiles of prospects. And, and, and, and ultimately what prevails is, is what has the best user experience and the numbers upcoming. We are, we are nothing if not a data driven organization. I love that. And again, that's a very similar conversation that, that all of us have in tech every day is really about abandonment. Let's talk about systems. I mean, I'm curious that you start out licensing. I mean, this, this company predates you, you were brought in, you're not the founder, right? Correct. But, but you've been running it for what this is your 14th year or so running this company now. So you, you got your fingerprints all over this organization. Did you come in and you had a legacy off the shelf system that ran this whole, this whole operation? Have you kept that system? Or do you do custom dev to build your own stuff? Like, tell me what the technology makes. Again, I don't need the nerdy, super nerdy details. I'm just curious is like off the shelf versus built yourself. What did it look like 12, 13 years ago? What does it look like now? Yeah, so 12, 13 years ago, it had it, there's its own proprietary system that handled everything from underwriting accounting claims and the like. And then we rebuilt a separate replacement system that we released just over five years ago, using an external vendor, but we own the source code and kind of built, we re-operationalized everything, used the opportunity of rebuilding the tech to reinvent operational workflows, remove inefficiencies, try to get that ball from bouncing back and forth between groups too many times, and then release that. Since then, we've become much more of an API, and I'm going to quickly venture beyond my domain of technical literacy, but we used HubSpot for our CRM, we're plugging in more and more of these vendors that have slick tools, and so compatibility becomes the new name of the game where we're kind of operating the main heartbeat of the body, but we need the body to be able to accept APIs from all of these other vendors who are creating truly fascinating new tools for our industry. But unless you're prepared to onboard then integrate it into your existing technology, it's not going to be much good. Do you have an example, and you don't have to name the vendor, you don't have to get very specific in fact, you can just tell me the type of product that you think is like really revolutionary and what it offers for lawyers? Well, in terms of our internal tech, we have one vendor that speaks to just the observation that you made that gives us a highly voyeuristic window into the experience that the consumer is having. We know who's on, where they're at geographically, you can watch them as they go through the process, and we're watching because we want to provide them the best, most streamlined, easily to understand process possible. And so in doing that, it completely reframed my own understanding of how my interaction with different websites works. I no longer am naive enough to think that I'm simply interacting with a website. I realized that there's an entire ecosystem of people behind that business who are probably have as much knowledge about where I'm going to go next as I do. Yeah, it's interesting. I use some tools that I've used tools like that for a very long time, one that used to be around, it's not around anymore, it's called chartbeat. And I started that using that 15 years ago, and it told me everything going on all the time, heat map, workflows, what button they were clicking, what was popular, you know, it told me everything, who abandoned, who dumped out. I've got one now that I'm using that's really cool because it tells me, I mean, it gives me the LinkedIn profiles on everybody listed visiting the website. Wow, just straight up. It just, it just, here's, here's all the LinkedIn profiles from everyone that came to your site today. And I was like, holy crap, like that is, it is really amazing, because it cuts through all the noise, right? It's no more anonymous visitors. It gives you, here's all the LinkedIn. And then of course, you have your outbound team do all these warm outreach tool that are already on your website, already found you. Yeah, you know, so it's, it's pretty remarkable how, how good tech is now on helping you analyze pipeline. Because of course, you know, you've got to dial then on, on operations. Do you handle, oh, actually, I want to, I want to pivot topics for a second. You, you really dive into the problems your users have, right? The legal malpractice industry, right? I mean, you have to, I mean, you're, yeah, I mean, because think about this company at its origins was started by lawyers for lawyers to address a crisis. And that, that history carries through the DNA of the company. I mean, this is a company that's got a lot of, a lot of former private practice attorneys, people who have been to law school, people who care deeply about the profession. We are an insurance company, and our job is to, is to make a profit and do it ethically and transparently. But we also care deeply and authentically about the practice of law and the legal profession. And so how we write our policies, how we design the consumer experience is very much wired in a way that's, you know, as if you'd be trying to serve a friend or family member in, in, in their experience with your company. Yeah. And you're an AMS A rated carrier, right? So you obviously are doing something right. You've got the, you've got a premier rating, you're, you're all up in your clients business, you understand the problem because you have people that were actually in your clients shoes. What do you think today is the biggest issue? And let's forget, let's take, take tech and put it on the side, because it's not a tech question. What's the biggest challenge for the legal malpractice industry right now? Well, one of the, the biggest challenges, and it's a challenge that we're kind of seeing as a, as an opportunity, as a byproduct is that the, that culturally the billable hour gerbil wheel, such as it is, as is really a grind. And I think they're with increasing frequency attorneys are deciding that they are going to leave multi member mid-sized or large firms and start their own firm or a small firm really chasing a better work-life balance. And that, of course, endures to our benefit because we serve that smallest niche. But it is, it's, so it's good for us in the context of there being new business opportunities. It's a real warning sign for the profession to speak directly to your question, James, because when you, when you survey people in this profession, there is a, an alarmingly high percent that are not happy and would question whether they would recommend their own kids come into the profession. That sentiment tends to skew very heavily towards the mid-size and large-sized firms. We actually just surveyed the solo community in particular, and there is a significantly higher percentage, I think three out of four were indicated that they were professionally satisfied. Don't quote me on that exactly. I can, there's show notes, I can, we can post the actual survey into your, into your show notes, but and it makes sense. If you, if you, if you're a sole proprietor, you do have to kind of chase your own, you know, have to hunt your own game, so to speak, but you're in control of your own destiny and you can flex up your, your work hours, but this is a profession in flux, and I think that there will be evolutions occurring over the next decade that are unlike anything, particularly as the baby boomers complete their age out process, and the, and the newer and next generation comprises a greater percentage of the profession. You're going to see tectonic shifts, I think, and some will be positive and some will, will cause indigestion pains. Yeah. Well, and you have, you have a lot of factors weighing in. And first off, you know, the, the old adage or the, the, the quote that I can't quite seem to nail down an exact attribution from, but I've heard it plenty of times over the last 24 years I've been in business, that the billable hour is the source of all misery, right? It's actually, it's not a fun way to make a living, billing, billing time. Yeah. On either side of the equation, it's never fun to know that the, that the egg timer is running. And it's, and it's not fun to feel like you're a slave to it, either. It's, I think it is a very often a source of friction within the sentiments of attorneys. Yeah. On both sides of the transaction, like you said, and so you, we definitely have seen some progressive law firms move to fixed price work, right? I'm surprised we haven't seen it move faster, but yes. Me too. I think, I think because it's such a sea change that it really freaks some people out, but they'd probably be better off financially if they did it. They'd be liberated from keeping time. And, you know, one of my really good friends helps accountants move off of hourly billing on to fixed price work. And in general, their results, they double their income and cut the number of hours they work in half. So they sure they forex the amount of money they make per hour by leaving hourly billing and going to fixed price billing for tax returns, audit, advisory, they fixed price, everything put a menu together and so he makes his whole business training firms on how to do that. And it's been quite successful. The firms that he works with are too. I looked at him and man, why just accountants? Why stop there? I mean, lawyers do a lot of the same things. Obviously, there's a lot of discussion outside the legal industry about how AI is going to disintermediate lawyers in, you know, in part are in whole. There's a lot of people now who for simple agreements just go to chat, GBT, Claude, Jim and I and have it draft the basic agreement for them now instead of going to an attorney, you know, this is happening. There's a million examples of it and the kind of contracts they produce are really good. Is that really a you think a disintermediated threat for lawyers? Or do you think that lawyers are going to get on board with using this move to fix price, use AI themselves and be that that final licensed bar admitted review of the agreement to make sure that chat GBT didn't have a creative moment otherwise called a hallucination? Sure. That's a lot of really good questions all packed into one. So let me just start off with, I don't know, but I can tell you just one guy's opinion. I think, in fact, I feel fairly confident that there will be a bit of an all of the above. There will be attorneys who, whether it's their age or just their mindset, who are just simply unwilling or unable to adopt these new and rapidly progressing technologies that can not only be used as you point out to disrupt or disintermediate firms, but they can also be used as a very powerful tool internally at firms to bring enormous efficiency to the kind of work product that firms create with the type of second set of eyes checking that guards against hallucination that makes sure that it is actually speaking directly to the type of legal product that the customer expects. And so I think it will help some categories of attorneys really accelerate their operational dominance. It will completely obliterate others who just absolutely refuse to adopt it and will eventually just be overtaken. And there's probably going to be shades of gray in between as well. Yeah. The phrase I use all the time because I'm very deeply involved in my carrier clients, TPA clients, operations, and we get very embedded with our clients. As you can imagine, we build the technology that drives insurance companies at JDK. So we have our system Terra that does claims and policy. So we're up in the major decisions. And one of the biggest phrases that we say all the time, and that we try to reinforce all the time, and then we build it into the systems is human in the loop. There's got to be a human making the final call with whether it's an underwriting decision, whether it's a claims handling decision. And of course, on the legal side, whether it's a legal opinion, right? If you're drafting, you know, an admitted lawyer who's passed the bar needs to be reviewing a contract before it goes out needs to be reviewing a filing before it goes out needs to be signing off on contracts and employment agreement. But the tooling they use, you know, look, we've we've used word processors for decades now. And, you know, that that was a major shift in the industry, right, from typing and manual clerical work. And so there's been a lot of systems, of course, we didn't have Google and then we had Google. And so legal research really took a whole new light on when we got online search databases to search for case law. So I mean, there's been a lot of sea changes, but I feel like this is the biggest one for an industry that produces documents for a living. And the number one fastest growing technology on the planet produces documents for a living. Absolutely. You know, it's a it's a major change as long as you have people kind of guarding the gate saying, Hey, look, I went to law school, I got licensed, I've got case experience, you know, I, I'm going to review this document before it goes out and make sure that it's good to go. Now you provide liability insurance for lawyers. So obviously, at some level, you know, if if a lawyer uses chat to prepare their to prepare their filings, and they don't check it over, that's going to be a malpractice suit, right? Absolutely. And we've all seen it. I mean, whether it's been the Wall Street Journal or otherwise, where there have been attorneys that who have already been sanctioned publicly for citing cases that didn't exist and, you know, effectively using AI to create a work product that was not checked. And, and, and that's a problem. And, and there's no question that the use of AI will be a more prominent factor in the claims space for legal malpractice. Like anything, it's, it's more complex. It's not going to be all good for attorneys, although it's going to help some firms who use it right, leverage it, it's going to, it's going to really hurt other firms who resist it. And for firms who do use it wisely, it can be, it can be an incredible resource. Absolutely can, can be a huge deal, can it? So, well, let's, let's kind of wrap. We, we talked about some really great topics around user experience, which by the way, I'm super geeked out that you get so involved in, you know, understanding your customer and your prospects journey to being a customer, right? And that you're, you're so involved in AB testing. What, where do you see the future? You, you obviously completed an acquisition that allows you, what, what, what is your acquisition? And let's go, you, you very briefly touched on it, but what does your acquisition mean for your company? Where you acquired a, an agent, I believe? It's a, it's a business called Lawyer Care. And it's in, they were owned by Pro Assurance and Pro Assurance is in the process of being acquired by the doctor's company. And so that was their legal malpractice division. And so we acquired that, which effectively is the same small LPL, small firm LPL focus with one very important distinction. It trades through the brokerage side. So that is, and we are committed to that channel through the Lawyer Care brand to trade through the traditional broker and then Alps continues to trade on the direct side. And so it does allow a bit of a balancing in how we focus on distribution. Yeah, well, allows you to get to, get to more markets, right? That's the whole point. Right. That's right. I mean, this, much as in SureTex, I think broadly thought that they could wholesale, disintermediate an entire ecosystem over the course of a few years with a superior product. The reality is it takes a long time with a slow adjustment process. And so you know, we need to be, we need to be where our customers are and our, and customers, small firms do aggregate to the retail brokerage community who then goes into wholesalers often and then comes into broker distribution markets. So that's our focus with Lawyer Care. Awesome. All right, let's, let's close up with, let's say, you know, I want to talk about politics because you thought you, you, you mentioned at the beginning of the interview that you thought you were going to go into politics was, was the thought that you'd run for office. Have you ever you've served on some great board seats and you've actually gotten really involved. You're a board member of the Bank of Montana. You're a board member of the APCIA. You're a board member of the Missoula Montana Airport, which of course is a pilot I love. You're, you're, you're on the board, you're a board member of a, of a center at the University of Montana as well. So obviously, you've got some leaning stores at University of Montana. You know, but you're also co-founder president of Grateful Nation Montana. I mean, you're involved. You're, you're a board member for nine years of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which is a very politically active organization. What, what did, tell me, tell me about your involvement in politics and what it's kind of evolved into for you. Well, there's the, there's the personal side and the, and the professional side is everybody probably who, who likes politics and has an intersect professionally can probably relate to this. I have certainly my own personal political views and try to support candidates who I think are going to bring the type of ideology and, and business sense into their service that I think is healthy for our country, particularly centrists who, who are focused on civility and civil discourse and, and, and respect for one another. But then there's also where our industry intersects with politics and our industry intersects with politics everywhere because we, we work in a regulated industry. And if, and for those who are in the ENS side, if they don't think that they're in a regulated industry, they are, they are, I think both mistaken and as, as more business moves into the ENS space, I think we'll, we'll be more frequently confronted with regulatory challenges. But, you know, APCIA is, as you mentioned, and I have the, the distinct privilege of being the chair-elect of, of that board, you know, Dino Ribusto from CNA is the current chair and, and he and I were colleagues at, at CHUB. He's much more senior than I. I've just, I've looked at him as a thought leader, a mentor, somebody with great wisdom. But APCIA is the, it's the policy-making juggernaut. AIA and PCI merged years, years ago. And whether it's in the halls of Congress and, and, and advocating for federal reform, or whether it's at the state level where APCIA is very active at, at individual state-level departments of insurance, it's kind of the century on the tower, this trade. And, and it's a trade that I think has earned the respect of regulators at the state level and, and members of Congress and DC alike, because you can trust them. I mean, the, the, the staff at APCIA, they're smart. They're smart people that are, who are honest and who, who present the, when we're advocating for something, I've, I've watched them present both sides of the story and be careful to help members of Congress understand, based on the lens of politics that they look through, how this issue could be seen. And I think that's why they're so effective, because they're, they're trusted when they walk in the door. So it's really, that's, for me, loving politics on a personal level. It's, it's like catnip to be so involved in a, in the trade organization that, that kind of is the standard bearer for our industry for regulation and law as it relates to insurance. Yeah, it's a very dynamic, very dynamic situation all the time, isn't it? Yes, it is. You have, you know, a lot of pressure from consumers, from business owners and, you know, somebody has to stand in the middle and help, you know, help mediate the discussion at some level. You have to balance the, balance the needs, the policyholders with the needs of the insurer and the needs of the regulator as well, right? Because they have to respond to pressures they have from their voting citizens. You can, you can imagine, of course, you know this, I've been involved in politics for quite some time, first as a planning and zoning commissioner, then a city councilman, then mayor, pro tem of my town. And my dad was on a state central committee for a party, and then he was a city councilman as well. And, you know, my grand, great grandfather was a city councilman. So I have a long line of that. And, and I've had to learn to walk the line on this pretty pretty, pretty, pretty closely. I can tell you, I like you involved in education, my favorite political position over anything else I've ever been involved in politically is the one I'm in right now, Governor Abbott put me on the board of Regents of Texas Southern University. And that is by far the most rewarding thing I've gotten to be involved in in politics because you're, we have 9,000 kids at, well, more than that now, 9,400, I think kids at Texas Southern University who are, you know, we're trying to change their lives every day. And that, that it's, it's always really interesting getting getting involved in regulatory issues and lobbying for business and insurance and, you know, all the other things you've reasoned to get involved in politics, but I kind of feel like I've found my calling for the next half decade at least, and, and focusing my political attention on higher ed, because it is a, it is by far the most rewarding thing I've ever gotten to do. So I'm thrilled that you're, you're so involved in so many different areas of politics and are willing to step into the fray, you know, it's not, it's not easy. It's not easy being in politics. No, it's not, but it's, but it's, and I, I have not, you know, made the sacrifice of running for office and subjecting myself to the, to the public scrutiny and that times the vitriol that is so commonly associated with that, but it is necessary, right? Our, our, our republic requires people willing to step into those spaces and, you know, articulate ideas and defend their perspectives and ultimately leave the will of the voters to decide who should govern and then have regular, orderly, peaceful transitions of power at all level, whether it's the regents in Texas or whether it's the members of Congress and the Senate in DC. It's what our country has founded upon at what's makes us great. And of course, you and I both work in an industry that is the DNA of capitalism, insurance. I mean, if without the ability to transfer risk from one balance sheet to the, to the next, the, the wheels of progress grind to a very abrupt halt. They do completely. Yeah. It's, it's a privilege to be a part of it. Yeah. Sometimes, I've said it often, if you, if you can't insure it, you're not doing it. I mean, as a pilot, if I didn't have insurance, I wouldn't fly as too much liability, you know, it's just too much, way too much risk to take on on your own. There's too, too many things could happen that are outside of your control, you know, that could, that could devastate you financially to the point you won't do it. You won't engage in that activity. Sure. That's why we always say the, the FAA may say they regulate aviation, but the insurers really do. They're the one who decides who can really fly. Well, this has been a great conversation, David. Of course, you know, I've been, been friends for a few years. I appreciate you coming on. It's always good to get to know something new about you every time I get to talk to you, but congratulations on what you've done at Albs and in the, in the, in public service. And I appreciate, appreciate you being on the show today. Yeah. Thanks for having me, James. It's been a real pleasure. Fun to talk to you in this context and really, really great to see how you have this platform to reach out to folks in our industry and stimulate intellectual discussion on, on, on technology and, and operations and everything. So it's, it's really, it's been a pleasure to be a part of it. So thank you. Thanks. Appreciate it. And to all of our listeners and listener land, thank you for tuning in today to geek out our interview with David Bell from Alps. See you next time. The InsurTech Geek podcast is all about technology that's transforming and disrupting the insurance world. Hosted by James Benham at jamesbenham.com with cohost Rob Galbraith at endofinsurance.com. The show takes listeners on a journey through insurance tech. So enjoy the ride and geek out.