Drew Afualo on the Rules Women Should Stop Following

So much of our lives is shaped by the rules we never choose, the rules about success, beauty, relationships, motherhood, even who are supposed to be. My guest today has built an incredible career by asking two simple questions, who made these rules in the first place, and how do you unlearn them? Drew the follow is a two-time, time 100 creator, a New York Times best-selling author of Loud, and the host of the podcast, the comment section, and two idiot girls. She's become one of the most influential voices of her generation by encouraging millions of people to question the stories they've been told about themselves. Today, we're talking about family, identity, ambition, love, and what happens when you stop living by other people's rules and start trusting your own voice? So, let's get into it. Baby, this is Kiki Palmer, and baby, this is Drew a follow. Baby, this is Kiki Palmer, yeah. Today's episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor, Seventh Generation. I know I'm extra. They know I'm extra. We've made peace with it. But my cleaning products don't get to be extra. They get to work. Seventh Generation keeps it simple, so I don't have to pretend otherwise. Let's get into today's show. Oh, my God, I love the juice jam. I say "tooth jam," but you do have one couple. I do, I do. You look fabulous and you smell so good. Thank you, so do you. Thanks, girl. Thank you so much. There's a whole sum sum. Yeah. How's the day been? Have you been wonderful? Okay. No, you're my only thing today. Oh, don't you think so? I have to prioritize Ms. Kiki. Yeah! And the first time that we met was during the One of Them Days press tours. Yeah! And you remember it, and I love that about you. Of course I did. I appreciate that about you. It's fun. You know during the junk, it can be very boring and like, you're actually bringing something unique and interesting. Thank you. And go ahead and write that down. Thank you. Okay, before I get into the conversation and my pre-show pull-up questions, I wanted to bring up something that I didn't know exactly how to fill about because I wasn't sure who stole who's look. Oh, my God. It's the same talk. And I'm actually, I feel that you have upstaged me. I really love your poll. It's giving like Ravens the Mone, Tyena. Oh, my God. This is the show. It's the Spider-Man meme. And it's this. Yeah. I really just guess. So you kind of like ate me up, but it's cool. So I think we both look beautiful. To hell with that. So it works out. Wait a minute, girl. That's what it is. August of September. September. September early or? I am September 18th. Okay. What are my best friends growing up? Taylor Pog. Okay. I love you, Virgo, down. That's Nick Jonas' birthday. Oh, well. And I only know that because I was a huge honest brother. Well, guess what? I just started working recently with Joe Jonas. Oh, no. He is fine. I don't think I, I don't think I like thought it before. Right. It just didn't come into my mind. Right. You know what I'm saying? Last time I thought about the Jonas Brothers was, yeah, three thousand. I was on a jingle band for it. Right. You know. But when I saw him, I said, I see what's going on. Yeah, you're right. I get it. I get it. I understand it now. I understand it. Okay. Yes. Um, do you know your big three? I do, actually. I am a Virgo son cancer moon, Sagittarius rising. Wait a minute. No. Because somebody, when we came up in here, they were like, you guys are like so similar. Yes. I'm a cancer rising in a Sagittarius moon. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm going to pull up my face and it's going to be your face underneath my face. That's what's going to have to happen. That is absolutely insane that we're the same person. Yes. Also randomly we're the same person as also Kevin Hart and also Druski. That's weird. They all have that same big three in some time. And Andrew's coming in. I'm the same name. Imagine. Imagine my name was Druski and I shortened it to Drew. For the sage name. Well, I know you have Peeley dying laughing. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Obviously. Girl. Okay. I love languages. My like main one I would say is Access Service. Like to receive. I would say Access Service. Okay. To give. I would say Access Service or like gifts. I'm a big gift girl. Oh my god. I just feel like I can nail a gift for anyone. That's really a skill because for me I feel like I'm just always just trying to, you know, I'm that grandma that's like $20 in there. You know, because I never knew. I want you to just buy what you want. Because I get wrapped up in the whole like what is a good gift for someone. Right. So that is a very good skill that you have. What is something your friends roast you for if they roast you for anything? Being late. Oh, girl. Yes. That's probably the least Virgo thing about me. But why is Virgo always so organized but late time? I know. I know. I think it's because when I show up I show up ready to go. Girl. So I don't need to worry about the time. Time's a construct. The party starts when I get there. And you see you nail that. And honestly, wouldn't it be too eager to be right on time? That's what I'm saying. I don't know. We're over planning at that point. You know, I'm anticipating the vibes. Yeah. What is one movie? I think I know what you're going to say just because of my research. But what is one movie you could watch over and over again? Ooh, I have a few. Probably the heat. Oh, the heat. The heat. And that's a newer one. Yeah, that's a newer one. I'm just going to say the wedding singer. The wedding singer is also known. Because I know you love that. You love that. That is true. Yeah. And it has Drew Barrymore in it who I was named after. You actually named it. What your parents have incredible taste. I agree. Drew Barrymore is my girl favorite Drew Barrymore movie if you have one. Oh, my favorite Drew Barrymore movie. I have mine. I'm already my aiming. Oh, what's yours? What's yours? Never been kissed. I was going to say never been kissed. Oh, my God. I was literally going to say that. I was so slightly controversial in this. Very, very, very prominent. It was a very school mess with your teacher. Yeah, very problematic and weird. But unfortunately in the movie world, we loved it. Yeah, exactly. I love it very much. For the time it's perfect. Exactly. Yes. Now, where did you grow up? I grew up in San Ana, California, like Orange County. Okay, cool. I was going to just start talking about your parents because our parents were kind of similar. You grew up in kind of like a not what I would say is not as traditional. But today, I feel like it's more common where your mom was the breadwinner. Yes. And your dad who played in the NFL. Yes. Was kind of more stay at home. Yes. As I started working in the industry, that kind of is like how my family fell into. How was it like growing up that way for you? Honestly, for me, it didn't look any different to me than other people's families. To me was just like both my parents work hard, but my mom makes more money than my dad. So my dad's dream has always been to be like a stay-at-home dad. Yes. Because my dad hates other people, but loves his children. So he would love to be a dad. He would love to be a dad. Like he was like, I don't need to talk to anyone. I'd rather be at home. Yes. So my dad has always never had any ego about that. My mom has always been like a go-getter. My mom is the most like motivated woman on planet Earth. So that to me, the dynamic was so normal to me. Yes. Which is why like my parents had kids before they got married. They were together for a very long time before they got married. So I think it kind of formulated my opinion and view on like relationships on like love, romance, like contribution, partnership. I feel the same exact way because I always saw it as equal. Even before I started performing and my mom ended up being the one that was on the road with me most of the time. Yeah. They would switch up often. But my dad would often be the one that was with my brothers and my sisters. He would be so in. He was making sure we ate good food. My mom's food is terrible. Way too salty. You know, I didn't realize that these were things that people attributed to certain genders. No. And I think it was a bit of a shock to me when I started getting into the dating world. I'm like, why is everything so tit-patat? Yes. Fiddy-fiddy. And like, what have you only got five today? You know, like we're supposed to be a partnership. Yeah, exactly. I think it's like, I feel really lucky that we've had that experience. But it is interesting how we're now. I feel like even though that concept is more common now and we're in this modern era where we're, you know, people can be whatever they want with their identity. We're talking about all these things and breaking down concepts. There's also still this big push towards the digitalism in this way that can sometimes feel stifling. Yeah, and it's also, it's very ironic to me too because like you said, it feels like so back in the day, misogyny. I always call it like madman misogyny. Uh-huh. Because the arrow that that was made in that, yeah, that makes sense. You're very misogyny sick at this time. Obviously, look at you. You guys drink whiskey at 9 a.m. It's obviously you have different problems. And given them wives, all that coke would real coke in it. Right. For real. Like you're hiring women based off rest sites. So yeah, obviously at that time, that makes sense. But now I feel like I think it just depends like when women start succeeding and becoming more prominent. Like and then they start talking actively about how romantic love does not need to be more important than platonic love. You can wait for partnership. You actually don't need men to do literally anything in the world anymore, including have children. Yeah. So you can choose to be with them. It's not obligatory anymore. It's a choice. And so I think that's the time when it starts to get ironic and confusing to me when there's pushback online, especially. Well, I imagine in my mind, I would think as a guy, I'm not a man, you know what I'm saying. But in my mind, I would think, oh, good. Come over here and help me with some of this. That's what I would think. I would think because it's like for so long, gender was defined by you having to hold, in my opinion, way too much. Like the patriarchy contribution. It's growing you. You know what I mean? Because it's like, why should one human being have to be all of these things? Yeah. So in my mind, I would imagine that a concept of feminism or just equal contribution across genders would actually be a relief to the male species. I've always wondered that because I'm out, but I do feel like since we've talked about this more and, you know, again, getting in positions of power. We even had Kamala Harris running for the president. Like, and what was that happening? When we see those things, it does end up seeming like now, it's a bigger push to go backwards. And I don't know, I don't know how. I don't know if you talk about it a lot. I think about it a lot. I experienced this a lot. I wonder how we can just like, you know, no more drama between us. Like how can we, you know, what do we know what I'm saying? Like how can we get together? Especially like, we're podcast holes. We're, you know, in the public eye and like community driven. Like, I really do wish there was a way to change that conversation. Yeah, and to move forward. And to move forward. Yeah, I think there's honestly, I think there's far more people in the middle than there are on very opposing sides if that makes sense. So there's a lot of people in the middle who are torn because they're confused on certain things as they're getting mixed signals. I think from media and from their upbringing and everything like that. So I think more than anything, I think it's focusing on the people who are like-minded and continuing to build community with them. And then eventually the community will grow so vast and so large that like you won't be able to hear naysayers anymore and you won't be able to hear bigots anymore. I think it's more so focusing on the people who are like-minded as opposed to trying to change the minds of people who are not. Because there's more, there's more fence-sitters than there are people who have made up their minds in a very bigoted old-fashioned way, which I've said many times before. Like the more common man that's awful is not a man who's like getting the kitchen to make me say in which like, it's not that guy, the more common man is someone who's like, "You're pretty funny for a girl." That's the far more common man, that's misogyny. That's like Roaches. I'm killing him. I'm slapping him. I'm killing every single one. But they keep like Roaches being born again. Roaches don't need a mate, you know what? I found that out about Roaches. And they can now live like apocalypse and everything. Literally like, it's really like, whoa. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. Well, you are proudly Samoan. Yes. So tell me a little about growing up in your household, your culture, what are things that some of us that haven't had the opportunity to dive into the culture, we should know. Yeah. Well, I mean, back to the original point about like our parents kind of emulating dynamics. Like, someone culture at its genesis is matriarchal in many ways. So women, a lot of power women are very influential in the family. Like their voices matter, their opinions matter. So that's the environment I was raised in, was a lot of women in power women make decisions. Like, yeah, if your dad says, yes, that's fine. But like my mom has to say, yes, too, for it to be for real. That's how it is with black folks, too, big mama. Everybody know that big mama. I ain't cutting off my leg, you know. Yeah. Yeah, so that was the environment I was like raised in, as well as like, I think a big part of it, which kind of ties into like how people found me, how they came to know me, was like humor and like making fun of each other. Roasting each other is like a huge part of it. Like getting raised, which are cousins and being mean to each other is very, very fun. Playing the dozens can get really scary. I'm telling you. And people could start fighting in a minute. And now, and that's why like sometimes when they're like, it never hurts your feelings when people say this. I'm like, you guys more raised in my family, you have no idea. Oh my gosh. You've mean, you've never heard mean. No, yeah. You don't know what that word means, mama. That's what I always think. So I think like that was a huge indicator of how I turned out to be this way, how I got funny. But also, I think how I learned how to take a joke, because I feel like, when a running joke when I was a kid, 'cause I used to be very sensitive, obviously, cancer moon. So I'm extremely sensitive. And I used to not be able to take a joke. And my mom used to say things like, well, don't joke or she can't take a joke. No one tell her jokes anymore. She can't laugh. And that used to make me have FOMO. So then I was like, well, I do obviously want to be included. I just like, don't want to be made fun of. But I can't make fun of others if I can't learn to laugh at myself. So I think that was like one of the biggest things I learned. And that's very cultural. And the laugh too is very cultural. I love love. Not exclusive to me. A lot of people think it's like for, they think it's for like the show. But I'm like, if you talk to any someone person, they cackle just like me. And I'm going to learn how to say some, how do you, I'm saying some more in wrong. You could say it that way, no, I don't want to be a colonizer. I want to say it, right? Yeah, someone. I was like explaining to someone earlier that it's very like kind of like, you know how Mexico, you say Mexico, but the proper pronunciation of it is Mexico. It's just like that. So you can say someone. If you're not someone, I don't expect you to know how to say it. But like, if you are someone, then you should say someone. So it's like, someone. Someone. There you go. Someone. There you go. You don't want me to do it. Yeah, I'm just going to embrace. Well, you, you talking about growing up, but I'm curious because you are such a confident person. When did you grow into that? Like as a kid, were you always able to be loud or was there a certain point in time that you remember where it was like, I'm coming into my own. I honestly, it sounds so made up because of what I do for a living, but like, I really have always been this way. Like, I have been this confident and annoying. I honestly think it's gone down a little bit as I've gotten older. Like, I think it was where my hubris was a lot worse when I was younger with no merit. whatsoever. I had no validation. I was just always, I've just always been so confident that I am like the most awesome version of myself. And it's never been denigrating to others like in, in my, come on, dinner writing. Yeah. Relatable. Yeah. It's never been at, like, at, at the expense of others. It's always been like, I think I'm so unbelievably awesome and unique and I think everybody's like that. That's all I've always thought. And I feel like you thought that way too. Yes. I'm so happy. And I want you to be cool. And they're like citrus. Yeah. And it's like, well, you're so yourself. And this is so applicable to you. Like, you're so yourself that people think it's like an act until they meet you. And you're like, no, this is just how I move. This is just how it exists. Like, I promise I've been this way forever. I feel the same way. So that's how I've always been. I feel like unbelievably borderline delusionally confident. And I, and what's funny is like, I was just saying this the other day on an interview. But like, like I said, I was a big bonus for the girl when I was like in middle school. So I remember thinking as a middle schooler, I'd be like, well, obviously he's going to like me. But like, am I going to like him? That's the real question. Like I would like actually ask myself that question. But I love that because that's the steam too. I think so too. And it's like, it's also like a steamer where I put myself, which is, again, I always wonder, are these things, and it's good to ask this, because are these things that you just born with? And if you are, then how do we teach ourselves to, and whatever it might be, you know, being outgoing or being more disciplined, you know, how much of it can we actually nurture in ourselves? That's a really great question. I feel like a big part of it for me, and it seems like it, I think it gets very like sometimes irritating to hear, but like I've really decolonized my brain in a lot of ways. And that includes most especially beauty standards. So it's like, who I see and what I perceive to be beautiful, how I grew up, like a perfect example, I always use this fatness, like I grew up around fat people, I've been surrounded by fat people, I've been a fat person. So like for me, fatness has never taken away from anyone's beauty, fatness has never prevented anyone in my life from getting married and having kids and being in love. That has never been the case, so, and even something like long hair, like I've always grown up loving long hair on men, because in someone culture, like long hair is beautiful on men, it's masculine, right, it's very, like good, it's very attractive, right? So like my, and the same thing goes with body types for women, like all the women in my culture are big and thick and strong and have a lot of muscle, so my perception of beauty I think was very different and I think that's why I grew up so confident because I was like what I was looking at looked like me. It wasn't until I started, you know, engaging in a lot of like Western American media that I started noticing huge differences and what people were attracted to. So like for me, like even you know they joke about white boy of the month and they're like this is the new white boy of the month, everybody is attracted to him. You ever see him and you're like, I don't know what you're talking about, but like you see the magazine is like, yeah, fine, it's man of the year. You're like, hang on. You're like, no, for sure, no, for sure, for sure, for someone, yes, hey, every pot has a lid. But not as someone. Yeah, every pot has its lid. You know, that's what I think and I really, and even now I still have it. And honestly, I don't like what you're speaking to because it's just a general, we all have individual taste. That's the thing. It's the idea that there's one standard of what any one of us would think is beautiful, it's exactly any given day. And it's always in like American media, it's always white, it's always thin, that's just never been my experience. Always thin. And I think it's coming back with a van. Yeah. They're like, no, I change my mind. I change my mind. Like, wow. I change my mind. I hate how people again. You cannot keep up. I cannot keep up. I know me either. That's why I think that's why I grew up really confident too. I think it was just my, what I was perceiving to be beautiful and attractive. Yeah. It's very different. Yeah. What we make ourselves open to is really big. I talk about this a lot with social media because sometimes it's like, it's pretty much the wild, wild west. There's no curation around it. No totally. So whatever you, and if there is any curation, it's all algorithm-based, you know, sponsored based or whatever, you don't know how everything works. But because of that, you don't really often see the communities that would encourage the way that you think or just support and empower the way you think. You're often being, because people want to say, oh, you stuff, you're being fed something. You're being fed the idea that you have less and that you need more. Yeah, exactly. At what age or part of your life did you start to, that you did become open to, like, wait a minute. There's someone that wants something different than what I believe is awesome. I think it was around, probably around middle school, like, later middle school, because I remember around that time. And I wrote about this in my book too, that that's when I started kind of noticing my body was different because I also, I had puberty in middle school, but I've been tall my whole life. When I was in seventh grade, I think I was like five, five, five, six, which is a little shocking and scary when you're a young woman. Yeah. They're like, okay, why are you five eight and you're at 11? So that my dad is six six, though. So my dad's a big dude. My mom's five three. So there's like, there was a real 50, 50 shot. How big I was going to be. My sister stopped growing at five four. Wow. I blew past her in middle school. And like in one year, I grew four inches. So I went from like five four to five eight, and I was still in middle school. or fine. You were sleeping. Right. I was around you. I was eating my greens. So around that time, I remember starting to notice my body was different and like I had brought it up to my mom. And I was like, sometimes I wish I looked like my friends on my soccer team, which were small white girls. And my mom was like, this is going to sound mean, but it's not. I don't mean it to be. You're never going to look like them. Period. But that's not a bad thing. You guys just look different. And one day you're really going to love like how big you are, like how tall you are. She's like, one day you're really going to love it. Like it's just, it doesn't feel like that now. And I remember that was one of the few times I was feeling a little, I was being caught by the insecurity. Sure. And I remember thinking, you don't know. Like at the time. And then eventually, obviously, when I got older, she was right. Like now I love being tall. But like all throughout high school, I hated it. I hated how tall I was because I was always bigger than every boy ever. So whenever men tell me they're six feet and I can see your scalp, you're a liar. You're a liar. And by the way, you're bald and blue. Yeah, I was like, hey, and I'm forced to sinning. I work on that. So I've been big my whole life. So I think once I kind of accepted that was probably when I got out of high school. That was around. I was always very raised with the you're never going to look like that or be like that. And I think that's actually where my confidence came from. I agree. Because if I have one, only one option and I'm being this, something happens in my mind where I'm a big reframer. Well, this is the best thing to be. How can I not love what I've got? I've got to love it. That doesn't seem like it computes in my mind. That's exactly how I feel. It's like there's no other way that it can be. Has it been a time with us saying this? I'm sure you probably feel the same way that having that kind of personality, you're having that kind of mind and look, we're not always like that. Like you just said, you had a conversation with your mom. I have these moments, but do you ever feel like people lean on you a lot for that energy? And how do you help yourself regulate through that? Because I ask you because I feel that a lot, especially at this time of my life, where it's like, yeah, I am this person that I love to be of service. And I love that people can respond and engage with that. But sometimes I want to be just unhappy too. You know, I'm more in the corner or just not say anything. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a wonderful question. But yeah, I do. It does feel that way sometimes, I think, especially the way that I built a platform because it was like in addition to the confidence, it's also like tackling misogyny and white supremacy and patriarchy as a whole. And like, you know, how do I, how do I like, you know, find a man who's not terrible? And like that I do have a lot of responsibility in that sense. And it does, it does get heavy. And I think that's why, you know, when I started becoming like someone, like moving past TikTok and I, you know, got the show and I wrote my book and everything, I think that's an addition. Thank you. I think it's another reason why I wanted to do the book too was to give people who love me and my fans like a more solidified, like version of me like, yeah, like with the context nuance, not just these five second clips. Exactly. Like reference material. I was like, I was like, saying on the press for it too, that I was like, this is like a piece of my brain and my heart for you guys to take home and revisit. Every time you need it, like you can revisit it because relying on me is not realistic, obviously, especially if, if you're a fan of me. So I do feel that way too though sometimes I'm sure you feel the way I have to do the show. Like sometimes when I film the show, I need about five to eight minutes of sitting in complete silence by myself. Well, I think it's important that we talk about it because so I get it. That's the world that we live in where there's a lot of stuff that's without context. People are seeing you, but only a part of you and that part of you is very much you, but everybody has more range than just their number one thing. It's like, you go, you got five love language. We got those first two, but I got a couple of the three in the back that you don't know about. They're just not the first front facing ones. Right. But because people always love the front facing one of somebody with a big bubbly personality, sometimes that's the only one that gets love. I agree. And I've expressed that before too. I think that's why the few times like I had to take a break a couple years ago. Yeah. Just for a couple of months, like through the holidays, I just wanted to not post anything and I just wanted to be like off my phone because that was the first time in my career. It started feeling like it was affecting how I see myself. Yes. And that is something I will not let them have. Like, I was like, I've given so much and you have to, I have sacrificed so much in order to be this person for you, to be this person to you, to be perceived as this, which is wonderful and great and I'm thankful for. But the minute it starts making me see myself differently behind closed doors is the part that I think the time are and I need to take a break. Yeah. So I stepped away for a couple of months, which was really nice for me. It was kind of helped me recalibrate. Yes. And start. And it was authentic. Yes. Which I think is like every authenticity is not to me consistency without any movement. It's being real in every moment you have. Right. So that can be a range. And so I would love that to appreciate you for sharing that. And it works in the opposite way too because like people don't never want to hear Mary J. Blige happy. We want to be sad all the times that we can get about. That's true. And like for us to like we are entertaining. So it's like if I'm not feeling great, I can't be as entertaining. I can't be as bubbly and awesome. And I think too like a lot of it to sometimes was at the time I took my break was coming from like, you know, sometimes women are like, you know, how do I like do the same thing you're doing? I have been telling women forever. Maybe they'll listen to me now that I'm talking to you. Take it. Take it, bitch. If you want to do it, if you want to fight men, please buy all means. Take it. I don't need it anymore. Hey, I got the championship belt. Who else wants it? Okay. Does anyone want to share? Come take it mama. I really don't care. I don't take it mama. I was like, you take it and you'll give you you will bring it back to my doorstep in a day because dealing with men at that level is awful. And I really do think that God in the universe has given me the invisible armor in order for me to be able to do it. It is really terrible. Let's talk about it. Let's get into it. Let's get into these comments and this comment section. Yes. I am by every definition a lot. My outfits are a moment. My reactions are I've been called dramatic in three different group chats this week alone. And every single time I said, correct, that's just who I am. And honestly, I've made peace with it. But somewhere along the way, I learned there's a difference between extra where it counts and extra where it's just showing off. And my old cleaning products were absolutely showing off and doing more to cover up than to actually clean. Girls sit down. So I switched to 7th generation. Bio-based cleaning power that handles the job without the theatrics plus no dies, artificial fragrances or bottles full of ingredients auditioning for a part they didn't get. It just works. And it doesn't need to announce itself while it's doing it. 7th generation provides a powerful clean without anything extra. So if you already bring the extra to the function, make the switch today to 7th generation. A powerful clean without anything extra. My son Leo sees everything. I mean that literally. The kid misses nothing. Every detail, every person, every moment that most adults would walk right past, he is fully present for all of it. Traveling with him has genuinely changed the way I move through the world because he reminds me to actually be in it. And what I've learned from traveling with Leo is that the best trips aren't about where you go. They're about what you're dropped into when you get there. A neighborhood that has character, you know, a home that has a backyard and a kitchen and a living room big enough to actually live in. A super host who points you toward the coffee shop and the park and the spot that doesn't have a sign but absolutely should. When I book a stay on Airbnb for us, it's not just finding a place. I'm building the world he gets to explore for those few days and watching him explore it. That's the best part. This is Leo's summer. Find a home on Airbnb and build that world for your kids. There was a summer where I was 11 years old. On a movie said learning 100 lines and somehow still having the time of my life because that's the thing about being a kid. You don't need the conditions to be perfect. You just need to be present. Free and completely unbothered by what comes next. I've been chasing that feeling ever since. The blended pink energy drink is how I find it now. Strawberry. I say real strawberry pieces. Coconut milk. Completely blended and frozen and so good. It's irresistible. The second is in my hand. Whatever is on my schedule can wait. Leo and I are going outside, honey. We have lines to forget and nothing to do. Little Kiki will be satisfied. Trust me on that. Unlike your best summer memories with the blended pink energy drink from Starbucks, available now or now on the app or find it in Starbucks.com. Take me through when you were like, oh yeah, this is just me doing this. And then to I'm getting real, real rabbit feedback and how do I keep going forward with this. Yeah, I mean, it was probably around like when I first blew up on TikTok and I started like the very first video I ever had go viral was like very specific red flags in men, which kind of just put me on the path. Like that put me on the path of men being the subject of ridicule. Now did you always have an idea of being a, I know you actually did, right? You wanted to do sports, sports journalism when you were younger, that dream moved. So you always add the kind of in the front, you know, in front of the camera vibes. Yes, I learned how to be, I learned how to talk on camera. I learned how to like edit videos, lighting, camera work, all that kind of stuff, editing. So So I learned all that in college because that was what I wanted to do and I honestly really wanted to be like more in the entertainment side of things, but I just didn't think it was an option for myself because I didn't see anyone who looked like me outside of the rock. Right. So, you know, big bald guys take it. Yeah. Don't try to get that. It's taken. For real. So like I went the sports route because I figured like maybe I could get on camera that way. Got fired. COVID hit. And then I started making TikToks. Like when I started making TikToks at first I was talking about like my own relationship I was talking about dating. And then I saw like that specific red flags in men video. I just made a whole list, put it behind me, just went to town. That was the first time I was like really making jokes about men. That one went super viral. That was my very first video to ever go viral and then like because I'm 30 now. So like at the time I think I was like 24, 25 and I had been online before but I had never experienced hate ever. So like it's a doozy. It is. And I was very like overwhelmed by it in the sense of just how much of it I was feeling. But at the same time like like I said how I grew up I thought everybody was having fun. I thought we were all joking and you guys want to tell jokes about looks let's I'm actually really good at that. They all found out the hard way I'm actually very good at that. So then that's how I started making videos and I was like posting like 10 or 12 a day. Like I would get one awful comment. I would go look at what they looked like. I'd put the picture behind me. I'd go to town. That was before I had handcuffs on me once they gave me one time once they gave me that blue check mark. They put handcuffs on me. That's like I can't do it anymore. They won't let me do it anymore. Like sometimes people ask me how can I do it anymore. I can't. Now I'm a public person. Now they'll get mad at me. So that is real. And I've had that a lot, especially when it comes to reality TV or just conversations. That is a real thing. And you know in my opinion, it's like yeah, you know you got to take it, you know correctly because I don't want nobody to get doll, but I'm crazy. Right. It's like a real thing. A lot of people sometimes they want you to have such great big opinions, but it's like if I have an opinion, I need to make it, I need to pull out the concept and the theme. I have to think about consequences. Because it matters. I cannot just attack that person because at some point it's like now, somebody is ready to call it. Well and even before like that too, even at the beginning and I'm proud of myself for doing it then, I was very strict about how I did it. So I was like, I'm not, I'm only going to do it if I see them like actually physically say it themselves. I'm not taking requests because you can give me a request and I'll go look, but if I don't find anything, I'm not going to roast them publicly because for all I know, you could be lying to me because sometimes people were like, can I hire you to make a video about my ex? No. The rates too high. But also, I was doing cameos at the very beginning. I was and then I started getting them when I started getting more popular. I started getting ones where men were like wanting to give me money to degrade them like in a sexual way. And they like, I have. Not the down energy. I remember the very last one where I shut, this made me shut down my cameo and not even kidding because someone said, can you call me like a dirty little boy and tell me how bad I am? Not for $30. Hey, off. Hey, off. Hey, I'm going to need seven more zeros on the end of it. Yes. Yeah, not for 30 bucks. That is so. This is supposed to be for heavy birthdays, but it's not that. What is a very interesting part of the fetish concept like really wanting somebody to kick you in your balls? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what the hell it is. But keep it away from me. I don't know what it is. Keep it away. I don't need it. Thank you. I love it. It's so funny. She said for 30 bucks. Yeah. Not for 30 bucks. Hey, I'm going to need a little bit more than that for that. Oh my gosh. Okay. So it started off. This is how it started off. What do you think? Or could you have predicted? What did it be? What did it be? I mean, at some point you had to start thinking, okay, I got to turn, I'm getting more popular. I want to be responsible. Right. I know you probably didn't really think about being a role model or something like that. No, no, no. But at certain point you did decide to take it seriously as a responsibility. Yeah. What do you have to look like? I feel like at the beginning when I really started like hitting a stride as far as like growing because when I was just making the videos, I was making zero dollars and zero cents. I was doing it purely for the love of the game alone. Yeah. I just found it really fun to make fun of them and I loved that people were drawing a lot of power from it. I think it was when I started kind of giving more in-depth explanations as to why I react the way I do, why I respond to disrespect the way I do bigotry. That was when it started feeling a little bit like more than just making fun of men. And I remember at one point I was growing so quickly and so fast, but I was not getting approached by anyone, like there was no agents coming to sign me, and for obvious reasons, right? The whole pitch about me was very like I'm too controversial to sell, like brands won't want to work with me because the nature of my content. I remember talking to my fiancee about it at the time and I was like, you know, what if like people don't want to work with me like on a serious scale because I really do love doing this and I'll keep doing this even if I make no money, I'll just go back to normal job, normal work. And he was like, well, would you want to work with someone that would find what you do controversial because what you do is not controversial. And this is the king. Yes. This is my man. Exactly. Because you talk right here. Because this is a big thing that I love that you're bringing this up because, look, it is important when you are building a brand and you're trying to make partnerships, make sure that there's a way that you can be professional. Yes. And there's a system of how things go. So you have to learning how to translate your language, your vibe and your culture that there's literally no space for in a system to be able to work. It's an amazing, incredible skill that every entrepreneur has to learn. However, they need to be the right partner for you to be at going all that's about it. Exactly. It's like a balance. Yeah. Exactly. So I love that your fiancee, Peelee. Yes. And that's what he said. He was on point. Yeah. And he was like reminding me to like, it was important. Why I was doing it like what I loved about doing it in the first place. And so I was like, period, period, period. And then honestly, my agent now, one of my agents now, who's still my agent to the day, like she was the only person that really pursued me and she really had to fight for me. Like she told them, I'm telling you, like she's going somewhere like this, this is the girl. Like we have to like lock in with her. And now I'm with her on and she's on her own now, which is amazing. But I really do think I'm like, the women are going to do it every time. I'm going to do it every time for me. Really? I feel this, like literally, I cannot tell you that I sat down and thought, like everybody needs to be a fierce bitch on my team. But when I tell you every bitch on my team, like, every like all of it, it's not there. I'm like every single and it's like, you know, it's just, it is, I just really live for a boss, diva girl. That's what I just do it every time they're going to get detasking abilities and they look beautiful while they do it. Come on. And I, and I really do think like that, that kind of transition from that, like the mindset is where it shifted there, it was very like, okay. And then I think on a literal scale, I just got too big to ignore. Like they just, yeah, I got to the point where I was so big that they had no choice, but to try and figure out a way to work with me. Yeah. And now that I've proven it, now it's like a non-issue. But like, I think at the time, I just had to get big enough that they were just like, okay, fine. Fine. We'll pay attention to you, Mike. As my mom always says, the cream rises to the top period. She's always told me that at every stage in my career, when people was quiet, you know, when I didn't know what was going on, consistency, keep doing you, you know, and look at you, girl. I can't hear you. Okay. So you've talked openly about imposter syndrome. And I think this is probably something that, again, we talk about people like us, our personality. People sometimes don't understand how the two things can exist. How can you be having imposter syndrome, but also be showing up and giving it your all type of thing? So when you were in the process of writing loud, what were you kind of, how were you coming to sharing these realizations and how you were still somewhat succeeding, even while living with caring that? Yeah, I think, I mean, I think for a loud, it was like, my editors were wonderful. And my main editor was like, I think the reason why he was able to push a little bit, like, I love, because obviously you're like me, like, very convicted in path. Like, I know where I'm going. I know how I'm going to get there. I know what I want to do. So you don't need to correct my path, because I'm on the right path. I know that. But then sometimes I think what I struggle with is being vulnerable on a larger scale. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So like, it's pushing me to be a little bit more vulnerable. And I think that's why there were a couple of stories in there, like, there's one where I talk about my decision to not have kids and why and, like, how that catalyzed, and then also my sister coming out to me. And those were, like, really, really difficult things in my life that I had to, like, process and work through in therapy, and then I'll have to write about and show the world. So I think in that, I was getting a little nervous. And I think, like, subconsciously, I wasn't fully committing. So my editor had to talk with me once in the process of writing where he was like, if you really want to put these stories in there, like, take me there, then, like, take me there in a way that's, like, comfortable for you, but, like, you really have to open up a little bit if you want me to see it and, like, believe it and walk in it with you. And so I think the gentle pushing of me opening up just a little bit more allowed me to kind of open up in a way that I still felt safe and I still felt protected, because obviously, it's one of those where it's, like, once you put it out there, it's out there. And I don't, I don't really want to hear feedback. I just kind of want to tell you how I went through it. I don't really need feedback, though, especially not on a personal life experience. I don't need it. But it really is as a demonstration. Go ahead and observe it. And nothing more. That's totally fine with me. And then I'm really glad that he pushed me to that point, because I feel like those were two of the biggest things that people talked about in loving my book outside of the general, like, theme of it, which is, like, self-love and empowerment. Those two stories, I think, really spoke to a lot of people. And I think it's because he got, got me to go there, which, sometimes men are helpful. Oh, no. Oh, no. Sometimes. And I have to ask. That's a good question. But did you like the Rihanna album loud? Of course I did. When I saw that, I thought, my son, I'm like, this, this is a connection here, maybe subconsciously. - My favorite Rihanna album, though, 100%, will always be unapologetic. - Oh, T. - That's my favorite. - That was just that. - My auntie, but. - What? (laughing) - No. - That's a great one, though. - Like, why would she, oh, miss her. - I miss her, yeah, please come back. - We need her. - It's like crazy. One of the chapters in loud is it's okay to be mean. - Yes. - And this is so huge for me, 'cause like, you know, I don't even know why, like what we're often called mean for is like, if we're different, if we're a guy, it would be like, boss. - Yeah, assertive. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, how do you, how did you go about being comfortable with setting these boundaries for yourself? - I think it was, I think it was a mix of trial and error, but I think more than anything, it was just me being so sure about how I deserve to be treated. Like, I was like, I know how I deserve to be treated, so this is not it, and I think we should change it. Like, that's how I felt very, like, young, at a very young age, but I think, I think destigmatizing the word mean, and like what it means to women is more important, because it's, you know, like you said, like women are often associated with mean. If it's anything outside of what I want, it could be, it could not even really be mean, 'cause what does mean even mean? Like, at that point it's the word is so meaningless when you own a player to every single feeling that's just not awesome. So, like, for women, only, only, only for women. Like, so I always tell people, like, I have just like everyone else, the capacity to be mean. Everybody has the capacity to be mean, and everybody's mean looks different. So, for me, I think when you reframe, like you were saying, you're a big fan of reframing, what that even, like, looks like being mean, I think you can realize that a lot of times, what they're talking about is just standing up for yourself. When you stand up, when you advocate for yourself, it's mean. Then I think we really need to process, like, as a woman is like, I don't care if people call me mean. Like, I don't really give a (beep) because as long as you respect me, that's all I really care about. Whether or not we like each other, we haven't even gotten to. But I think mutual respect should be understood between two consenting adults. I think that's, like, kind of just baseline. I offer that to everybody, so I expect it in return. If it's not given to me, then you're not getting it from me. And it's very simple to me. I feel like that's a very simple concept. I don't want to have to do it, like, it's like, it gets to know where people start playing a role. Like, in order to not be called mean, if they want, when it's like, we all saying the same thing though, she just said it. Yeah. Like, why is that the only way for the game to go? You're going to listen, right? And then I think that's why. I don't want to act like this. Well, and I've talked about how, like, men are used, like, women are very used to considering others. Like, that is quite literally our job. Like, we've been (beep) taught that from the minute where our eyes open. And men are used to being considered. So it's one of those words, like, no, you're going to consider me too. I'm going to consider you by force, and you're going to consider me by force then, if that's the case. And that's why it's like, I don't walk around just being mean to anyone, but if you are mean to me and you catch me on the wrong day, uh-oh. That's a bummer. And that's just being true to myself too. Like, am I not allowed to be true to myself? Right. Well, if you were rude to a man, he would perceive it as rude and he would deal with you accordingly. So the only difference really is gender expression. And at this point, what are we talking about? Literally. Like, it's all meaningless and stupid at that point, but I think that's why, like, I even, like, realize this the other day with a friend of mine. But, like, every interview podcast I've ever done, like, with white people, they're the only people who ever ask me. Do you ever feel like you're too mean? A person of color who interviews me has never, ever asked me that question. But white (laughs) I can't even have that one. No, it wasn't on yours. I knew it wasn't. That's why I brought it up. That's my side. And I know, and I know, you know, why? Because that's not how you see me. And I think, like, that, that, again, like, I'm putting on my, my micro bang and my blue hair. It, that is, it all ties back to white supremacy. It's true. Like, it all ties back because white people ask me that question because they genuinely think sometimes that I'm being mean. But I think you should unpack that. Unpacked why you think I'm being mean. If this was coming out of Drusky's face, I doubt you guys would think I was being mean. Yeah. You guys would think I'm being hilarious. And funny. Only. But, like, women can see the funny part too. And they don't, I think sometimes they acknowledge the meanness, but that's just been conditioned in us. Yeah. So it's something that we can let go of. As easily as we've been taught it, we can also let go of it. And it's just being told, like, have you ever thought that maybe I'm not being mean? And I also love what you were saying just about the idea around what being mean can sometimes be considered when it's just, I'm just forcing, it's almost like when somebody has an interesting name. You know, my name is Shawadavi. Yeah. And it's like, just because I've corrected you and said, my name is Shawadavi. Yeah. Oh, she's fierce. And it's like, it's an expression of a my culture, my background, my identity. And because I'm bringing that to the forefront and demanding that to be acknowledged, it is not something that's traditionally been reserved for people of color and definitely for women, where it's like, I gotta just let you call me whatever she'll see now. Yeah. When you know my name is Shawadavi. Yeah, yeah. Because that's what's easy for you. And so when we do get, and this is what I do love, this is what I've loved about social media. This is what I love back in the day when we was with Tom H-D-M-L-Cote. And you get to come into my space. Exactly. And so we either live in this world now where, you know, everybody's talking about it's quiet on the creek. Don't even know what the creek is. And why it's quiet? You know, because you don't learn about somebody's corner of the world that you love about it. Exactly. No, or you're seeing a corner and you're now, you can either take the approach of being just completely like, that's harder. That's tough as opposed to understanding. I had no idea that that was something that people was thinking about. Exactly, consideration. I didn't even know that this is what was going on in it, that part of the world, or whatever in women's minds. Is that a being excited and curious? A lot of people are pushing back to stay kind of in the closed mind and it's just, and then it's like, this is mean. And it's like, no, I'm just really telling like how it is for my side. Exactly. And I do think there's a difference between like, being advocating for yourself and like being rude. Obviously, those are two very different things. But like, what you perceive to be mean, that's why I named the chapter. In fact, I was trying to name that. Actually, that's not true. That was one of my second names for my book. I thought it's OK to be mean, but also-- It's a nice title for what a book do. Yeah, I did want to-- the other title I had was I'd rather die alone. And my publisher was like, that's a little harsh. They were like, let's leave a little more positive, also, whatever. Yeah, it's about loving yourself, obviously. OK, fine. And it worked out. I'm glad with the time. I'm happy to take a gel. Yeah, I was like, OK, well, I'm also a comedian. But yeah, I think that reframing what that word even means and what it means to be mean and why it's only ever attached to women, I think, is all ties back to the same center point, which is just unpacking internalized biases. What do you think is the biggest mixed conception that people can have around the idea of dismantling the patriarchy? Baby, it's this geeky poem, yeah. I've said it. I've heard it. We all know the saying, you need to go see that lady. And sometimes, you know, we give an excuse. I'll do it later. It's probably too expensive. What if it doesn't help me? Meanwhile, we're still struggling and somebody's worried. But with some research, I found out about Rula. It's a real health care company. Sessions average about $15 with insurance, and they tell you that calls before you book. Providers are vetted. Outcomes are tracked. And the majority of patients report genuinely feeling better. You can find someone who specializes in exactly what they're going through. Don't talk yourself out of therapy because you think it'll cost too much. Won't work or you have no idea where to even start. And trust me, that advice goes both ways. If you're ready to stop talking yourself out of finding care and making progress, then head to rulea.com. That's r-u-l-a.com. And take the first step. Dear diary, I'm writing this down just to make sure I remember this feeling. It was one of those days that kept stacking things on top of each other until I almost forgot to stop. But once I got a blended pink energy drink in hand, something in my chest finally let go. Between the SIE and the coconut milk with real strawberry pieces mixed into the frozen blend and let me tell you, it tastes like the best possible version of today. Some days you just got to admit, you can't fix everything. Some days you just find your moment. And today that was mine. Unlike your best summer memories with the blended pink energy drink from Starbucks, order now on the app. Um, that it just, I guess at the very bottom of it, it just means you hate men. I think that's like one of the biggest ones, which like there is space for that too. I do think like a lot of times I've said this before in interviews, but like when women say to me very convicted in a very convicted tone, like I hate all of them. I hate all men. Yeah. I don't ever correct her because there's clearly a reason why you feel that way. And the world is structured in a way to harm women. It has been for thousands of years. It's not new, like misogyny and patriarch is not new. But I think to have that very like almost superficial take of feminism as a whole, because my feminism is intersectional. So it includes every, every single person who identifies as a woman, it's not just cisgender women that I believe in equal rights for. So I think it's just, it's a cheap summation of equal rights. And I think that the patriarchy as a whole harms everybody. That's what I want to, I want to wake that team up. Including men, it's very harmful to men. So you would think that like working towards it with me would help you in the long run, right? But it's like, I've said before like when you speak to your press or you have to speak in a language, they understand. And a lot of times with men, it's violence. Whether that's violence with words or physically, it takes all shapes and forms, it depends on the person. So I think it's, unfortunately, that's just the way that they have to learn right now. I'm hopeful that won't be the case forever. But as of right now, I feel like that's the biggest misconception is just like, "Oh, you just hate men." And even if you do, you're still winning. -Yeah. -Hey, the world still set up for you. -No worries. -It's interesting because I never really sat down. And I never had thought of myself that way. But when I started getting on social media and I started sharing my ideas and obviously my content is in a range of things. But ideas start seeing like that. I would get a lot of negative comments from them sometimes. -Yeah, and they are. -Yeah, and they are. Yeah, I think in my mind and myself, I think I'm being fair across the board. I love my daddy and all my uncles. -Right, exactly. -You know, in my son. -Right. -But it's interesting how just being sometimes the concept of just being yourself being-- -Being confident. -Yeah. Being confident that you can do it all. I remember one time somebody I saw very obvious on the guy's face. He was just asking me if he could help me with something. And I was thinking to myself, "No, I got it." Yeah. Like, he was just so-- He don't need help with anything. Like, "Well, no, I'm not good. Come on now." -Yeah, you're right. I don't. -I'm just trying to get my own baby. -Yeah. -You were offended? -Yeah. Because I didn't-- I mean, it's a very heavy bag. -Yeah. -I got a lot of [bleep] in him. Also, you feel useless, that's not my fault. Right. And it gets to a point where it's like, it's like, even when you think you're as a woman that you were being embracing just by simply loving yourself, you are merely a feminist. And that immediately somehow means that you're trying to attack a man when you're just trying to love yourself. -Yeah. -I'm just trying to be good with me. And it's because it's a radical idea for women to love themselves in spite of what men think. -Yeah! -And that is the patriarchy. Like, quite literally, it's such a radical idea to love yourself. Like, that's another thing that I get a lot. When I get hate from men, and they say things like, "Why would never [bleep] you?" -Why would that be this insult? -Okay, what the [bleep] ask you? -Yeah, that's what's like, "Okay, me either." And then they get offended. When they call me ugly, I'm like, "Well, so are you. If we were just too ugly, but just fighting on the internet, just too ugly people going back and forth? -That's what I'm saying. -Maybe we have a long comment. Maybe we're both too fuggos. Here we are. -You like me. -Get out of here. That's what this is about. You're really mad because you like me. You really want me to like you better. -Yeah, and then you're trying to fight with me. Like, we're too sad. -And it is one of those things where, what bothers? And this is very applicable to a lot of female pop stars too. And actresses, women, how they're perceived by media at large. And I'll use my friend, Chapel, as an example, right? It's not that you guys think Chapel is a bitch. It's that she doesn't care if you think she's a bitch. That's the part that bothers you. -Yes, because that's the whole theme. -Exactly what's going on with her. -Well, and that bothers them about me as well. Like, it's not that I'm not bothered by what she say. That's part of it. But the bigger thing is it's not affecting how I see myself. It's not affecting how I think about myself. And men are used to crippling women with things like fat and ugly. Like, that's why that's the first thing they say when you upset them is like, well, you're ugly or you're fat. Even if you're not even talking about looks, that's like the first thing they think of to say to you, to be mean to you. And it's literally because they think women hold all of their worth in value and what they look like. So they think the meanest thing I could ever say to her is tell her that I do not find her sexually desirable. But there are women like you and I who could not give a f*** less. I don't actually care. -I'm not going to be attracted to everybody. You get that? That's also just human. Like, of course, not everybody's going to find anybody attracted. Why would that be hurtful to me? -Well, also ugly, Blire. -That's a reach. -You reach to the start. -Now you're lying to me and God. That's f***ing up. And he knows. So that's f***ing up. That's not cool. You're going to have to answer for that later. -Something else you're making me think of too with this is how do you feel or what do you think the participation is of women that are possibly supporting the idea around patriarchy? Do you always get positive feedback from women or do sometimes are they kind of also taking that side? -Oh, yeah. I've had women who, yeah. And they're dealing with internalized misogyny, right? So they obviously, they think I'm the problem, right? Like, it's me, I'm the problem. And that, I think, is a search in a desperate reach for male validation, right? Because as women, cisgender women, especially raised in patriarchy, you're taught that a man's approval is what we're aiming for. That's the thing we should be striving towards. And I think that, I know it's a foreign concept to the two of us, but some women really do think that even if it's subconscious, it's very strange to me. But I think I have a lot more. -Yes, because you're a woman. -Right. So you think, well, that's the thing is like, "I'm never going to be a man." -Cutting, like, cutting me in the line is not going to get you there faster, like it in terms of equality to men. Because at the end of the day, you're still a bitch to them, just like me. And the only difference is I'm not putting up with it, but you're willing to put up with it, I'm not. -And girl, let's get real, girl. -Yeah. -And we get together. -Yeah, Alexa, play girl by Destiny's Child. -Then we as women are bringing women up. -Exactly. -If we're looking at the stock market, right? -Yeah. -There's a men's stock market. There's the women. -You need to invest in us. -I agree. -Because then it's not about trying to get this other side to just agree, but to actually, we don't need a handout, we need to meet eye to eye. -I agree. And I've said, when there's infighting between women, look how far ahead men get while we fight each other. They're distracting us. I was like, they're distracting us. We need to get back on the track. We need to get back on the track where we need to focus on the real enemy. -Let's go back to today who's watching Spice Girls and getting their big ass tour bus. I love that. That's what we need to be on, though. It's true, though. And it's not about, again, I feel like this is a big thing on the internet where it's like the content and the idea is always based around what you hate. Let's get back to what we love. -Right. -I love getting to get-- like, girl, let's-- Like, we can talk-- like, let's talk-- There's this girl that does this thing online, where she's like, I want to talk about, you know, Sephora and blah, blah, all the beauty products. Are the men gone? Last time that I knew. And like, it's like, I want us to have fun like that. Like, I just get to the things that, like, make us happy and how we can support each other while we're dealing with all the things that, you know, just make us mad at crazy. -Well, and it's also, like, just women are just the best. -Like, I know love is real because I've been loved by women. And I'm in love with a man right now, currently. So, like, trust me when I say the real love. -We're just so beautiful and amazing too. -Yes. -I live for that. -Yes, well, to be loved truly in earnest. And I mean this very sincerely is to be loved by women. Like, I, like, the warmth that you get from women, loving women. And even, you know, like, this is not exclusive to me at all. I'm sure you've had very similar experiences. I've had very negative experiences in certain areas. Like, when I was in college or when I was working at the NFL with women above me. And even then, like, my point being, I have a lot of reasons to believe that women are against me and I could turn against women. But even then, I knew that that is because of the patriarchy. You feel like there can only ever be one of us. And I don't think that's true. And I'm not going to let this build resentment towards other women for me because women are truly, like, the lifeblood of everything in the universe. -I couldn't agree with you more. -Yes. -If I've ever had any problem in our feminine club. It's only been from the idea of there can only be one. -Exactly. -And that's influenced by patriarchy. -That was the case. I've been getting laid. -I'm not. -I know it's not true. -I'm just doing my job. -Right. -I'm just doing my job and I'm going. -And I really do love women that dearly and not sincerely. And I think that's why they flock to me in a lot of ways. I think they can tell that I have a lot of deep, deep, deep love for women. And I feel like, even, like, I've only ever felt this way about female artists too. But, like, even, you know, you watch, you ever watch someone, like, Beyoncé or, like, Rosalia. And then you think to myself, I think to myself, I know a higher power has to exist because this woman is created and no man deserves this. That's what I think every time I'm, like, men, I know man deserves. Someone's going to be lucky enough to have you, but they do not deserve you. And I hope they know that. -I will never forget the time that I was in. And I always, like, I feel like I was on the Destiny's Child train later. Like, was soldier. I mean, the soldier, you know, I came a little bit later. But then I was always like, you know, Beyoncé was always a real identity in my life in the background. Even if I didn't know her newest, first single. -Same. -But I remember when she was doing that with her first big Sasha fierce tour. -Yeah. -I was in, well, what was one of the things? It was like a fry as a best bias. I'm up in there and they have some TVs, I'm just blazing everything. And it was playing that tour. -Yeah. -When I tell you that I stayed the whole time that my mom was in their shopping, right in the middle watching. And all I could think to myself was, how could she be so incredible? -I know, for real. -How could she be so thoughtful? -What I got from it actually was not just talented. What I thought was she considered the audience. -For real. -She's so thoughtful in her performance. -For real. -She spent money on this outfit to look so seamless. The music is also a vibe that is encouraging me as a person. Like, it also was lifting me up. -Right, for real. -All I saw was the intentionality. -I agree. -And the attention to detail. And I had nothing but immense respect for it. -Same. -You know what I'm saying? -And it's like, "Chill is what you're describing." -I do not play my background. -I do not. -But you're saying, like, some of these women really do just evoke. -It's true. -That kind of response from me. -I agree. -I agree. -I said, "Rihanna with the unapologetic." -It's like, "Come on, man." -And women are just like, it also, too, on a business scale. Like, the female dollars, the most important dollars. They're the only people who decide what's popular, what trends, what does well. "Men don't spend money on ****." -And men have notoriously bad taste. -But I'm the anti-hero. -Yeah, that's what I said, but let's focus on women and what they love. -Love her, too. -Yeah. -Yeah, had you bringing in? Had to bring that in, because she's killing it. You know, all the ladies of every background. I love you all. You were named "Time 100 Creators." -Yes. -How was that? That is a huge accomplishment. -Thank you. Most of the world's most influential digital voices. -Yes. in two years in a row. - Yes, yes, that's true to you. - Well, you just completely-- (laughing) - I know every new, like, acolyte, I get like that is always incredible and amazing. And I think it's indicative of like what really, I think speaks to people. Like I said, like getting too big to ignore. Like there was a time when that never would have happened for me being in that magazine. And now it's happened two years in a row, which is incredible, it's amazing. - You had your boy, the rock, on the comment section. - Yes! - That was insane, please. You interviewed him from on, and you were so amazing in the interview. Like please tell me about what that experience was. What, you know, you, did you have a moment where you're like, make sure I'm just as bold as I always am. Be afraid, go for it. Like was there a commentation before then? Like what was the process? - Oh, like he's, okay, well, my brother, the rock, he's awesome. He keeps calling me cis. I'm like, "Me or like 20 years older than me?" (laughing) Okay, and cisster, more likely. But you know, he's wonderful. I've met him a few times, like hosting and seeing him at awards shows and everything like that. So getting him on the comment section has been like years in the making. So that was like a perfect timing for him to do it with the live-action Wana and everything. And we went out to Hawaii to do it, which was amazing. - Oh my gosh, come on, you always know that. - The motherland, yeah, the blood, I was like the Wana and this island is so powerful. So it was amazing. I loved getting to talk to him, I think, on a level that was like very real and very like cultural. Like I wanted to bring up culture a lot with him and how important it was to me that he has been continuing to be like one of the only, if not the only, like someone person to be as famous as he is. And like, to be able to transcend culture. Like he's been doing it and I was telling him to in the interview, like it's crazy to see you, like it's really hard being the first. And I just can't imagine being the first, like you have been for 20 something years, like doing it alone and doing your damnedest to get us in every room and open doors for us. And it's, you know, like the ripple effect of him is someone like me getting to come up and do stuff like this. So it was incredible, it was very like full circle for me. I've been chasing him for years. And like, honestly, I was like, it kind of works out that I'm like the only someone person on TikTok that people in America know of because you kind of have to come to me. It's like a metaphorical gun to the head, but hey, I'll take it. - Oh my gosh, I love it, I love that it's so true. He's always been so embracing of his culture, which is why a black side has to come on, maybe just keep going. - Yeah, exactly. - Because I know you look black. - Yeah. - And nobody named Wayne, not black. So get your ass over here. Did you just come on side? - Yeah. - And do you black side? - There you go, there you go, there you go. - I let you go. - We gotta talk about Peely. Because I think it's so, like again, when you're talking about all the kinds of things you talk about and you're just being, honestly, just sharing your truth. People think that they can make judgments about your lifestyle. Now, Peely, you've known since you were a kid. - In high school. - In high school. And how did y'all get back into your love story? Tell as little as much as you want. - Oh yeah. - I'm big about protected people's privacy. - Oh, I appreciate that. - Thank you. Yeah, we met in high school, not high school sweethearts. I do say that all the time. We had a real enemy's televerse arc. - Period. - We love it, Bruce. - That's like all the TV shows. - Yeah, yeah. - We have Harvey, or you know. - Yeah, and he's like one of those where he like, he has been handsome and athletic his whole life. And I've been handsome and athletic. My whole life as well. Just, you know, for the camera, just for the note, me too. But he was very popular in high school and like did not struggle for female attention, obviously. He's looked like that his whole life, if you can believe it. So I think with me. - I see his hair. - Yeah, he's very good looking man. And I'm not saying that's a gassam trust me. I would say otherwise if so. But yeah, we met in high school. He actually asked me to prom and I said no. And then I paid dearly for that later in the year. But, and I think we reconnected after college. 'Cause like we were both dating other people, like, you know, kind of sampling and college and stuff. - Come on sample, okay. - Well, me more than him, I'm sure. But yeah, so we were kind of like living our own lives. And then we were still friends and would get like lunch every now and then like co-workers. It was nothing ever romantic. And then I stopped talking to him because I got annoyed about something that I still to this day can't remember. And I think that's gonna be funnier. - Yeah, 'cause I'm like, that was a good call. - 'Cause I'm gonna hold the grudge. I just don't remember what started it. I do know I'm mad at you though, I know that much. So I was, I was ignoring him. And then he, I moved back home after I graduated from school and then he was like, he had been consistently hitting me up. I mean, like, hey, like are you home now? Like we should get dinner or something or we should get lunch. And I was like, man, this guy. Like I was so annoyed, I was like holding the egg girl. So irritated. And then I remember I told my mom, I was like, he's hitting me up again. And my mom was like, well, he seems sorry. 'Cause like, one of the last things he sent me before I happened to him. - My mom's so sweet. - No for real. - No for real. - That's why you asked Mary to have some mom. - Honey. - Okay, Miss, I've been together for 30 years. - Very easily. - We don't know anything. - Yeah, so, my mom, she loves you. - Yeah. (laughing) - And my mom was like, well, you know, like, why don't you go to lunch or something first and then if he still sucks, at least she got a free meal. And I was like, you know what, that's why they pay. That's why they pay the big bucks around here. So I went and then jokes on me, he got me like, nine years later, here we are. So that's when we kind of started dating. - Nine years later. - Oh yeah. - You're a locked knee. - Yeah, yeah, girl. - I was like, pretty much married already. - Yeah, right. - You're next year. You don't even need to wedding. - Oh yeah. - Well, that's kind of why I think, even like online when I announced I got engaged two years ago. Like, we got engaged after dating for seven years. So a lot of people were like, I mean, and by people, I mean, men who hate me. They were saying like, he's never gonna, he's never gonna (beep) propose, which I'm like, timelines are so not real. Like, I don't wanna marry someone after a year. You're trippin'. I have sweaters I wore a year ago that I'm like, what the hell was I thinking when I bought this thing? You think I'm gonna commit to a man for the rest of my life if I don't know? - And also, like, what is this concept around outcomes and dating is really, really bad because-- - I agree. - Sometimes you just have your time and you have your time. - Right, I agree. - Some marriages and for everybody. - Yeah. - When it is for you, you will know. - Exactly. - And so I totally agree with you on that. - Yeah, and I think that's the indicative of my parents too. Like, my parents did not feel the need to rush and get married. And for me, I'm like, I wanna live together. I wanna experience life together. Like, go through things together. Like, because it's really awesome to be a great partner when your life is awesome. But when you go through loss or you go through tragedy or you go through hardship. Like, how do you guys treat each other? How do you guys come back to each other? And I think that's why I was like, never in a rush. I was like, I wanna experience life with you and like, together before I commit myself to someone for the rest of my life. Like, and so I think seven years it was like the perfect timing. I didn't, we didn't even talk about getting engaged that year. I think we both just kinda knew. And then he did a great job, I'd say. - It's gorgeous. - Yeah, it's gorgeous. - Absolutely gorgeous. I had to learn to be cool with the vibes because my parents were super traditional Omnos. - Oh, yeah. - Met, dated for a year, got married next year, been married. And so I kind of, you know, grew up, I'm grew up in Illinois. It's very traditional midwestern. Black folk vibe. And so I had an idea of how things would be but I've always just been my own, beaten to my own drunk. So understanding that things will, first of all, career, you know, friendships, then all those things will be different for me with something that I really was like, and actually, it should be different for me. Because I don't live the same lifestyle as my parents. So, I think it's important to be something different. - I'm experiencing something totally different. So, love that. Okay, I have to just say goodbye to you soon. But, before I go, I want to play a game with you because I play one with all of my guests. - Yay! - Okay, so you obviously have great amazing opinions and you're not afraid to tell it like it is. So I'm gonna throw out a few topics and I just want your how to stay. - Okay, cool. - Okay, first one. What's one dating trend? You hope disappears forever. - One dating trend? Are they dating in trends now? I'm old. - Yeah, isn't that crazy? - Yeah, that's crazy. I don't even know if that's true. - Honestly, I would say, I would say, and I'll factor a take talk, I would say like going on the internet and recapping your date, like as soon as you get home. Like, I think that's fine, but like, those are things like for the group chat. Like, let it, and let it be terrible. - It has to be terrible. If it's terrible, then it's funny, then tell it. - And it's funny, then tell it. - But the problem is group chat and social media wise, let them cook or let them cook. Or let them cook. - Let it sit for a bit. - Like, first day, let them cook. - Yeah, yeah. - 'Cause you might like think about it back or want to be like, honestly, that one that bad. - Yeah, I think it's like logging the entire thing. - People in the come, I don't really like that date. - Yeah, yeah. (laughs) That's right. And it's like inviting opinion. And I think that can also inform your opinion. And I think there's like a real like, especially with COVID kids. I feel like there's a huge disconnect in dating. And I feel like it, everybody, also I would say too, to get rid of this idea that heartbreak is not gonna happen. And you can avoid it. Like, it's gonna happen. It's natural. - There's always that rule. I'm known by now. - Yeah. - I'm not a psychic. (laughs) - Well, and if I could have seen myself being devastated, don't you think I would have stopped it? - Like, it signs up for that. Who says, who can't wait to get screwed over? - And you're talking to two of her goes, who are psychic? So like, when I'm telling you I couldn't see it, then chances are no one could. And I think it's like to make peace with that so that you can feel brave and continuing to date. I would love for them to get rid of that. - Yeah. - I would love for them to be creating anxiety, I think a lot about it. So, okay, what's one piece of relationship advice people need to stop giving? - People need to stop giving. - I would say, you kind of said in it, one a good one in this, the answer previous of just like, you know, everything's gonna be, there's not gonna be any weird moments or something. - Yeah, I would say like that you're not gonna have like the right person you would never argue with. with. That's not true. Like you're your your right person, like you will argue with them. You will have fights. You will have conflict. That's natural. Because that's just human nature. That's just co-existing with another person. You naturally are going to bristle. But that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that though that you're devastated. Like it's it's doomed beyond belief. You're going to have conflict even with the right person. But it's what kind of conflict and in what way. I wish women would stop advising other women to be so forgiving of really terrible things. Yeah. Because people make, oh and also I would say that calling cheating a mistake. It's a choice. Yeah. Cheating is a choice. Whether or not you regret it is specific to the person, but cheating is a choice. That is a choice that an adult is making. So like if they cheat, it's because they wanted to. It's not because it just happened. Yeah. They wanted to. And so they did. Yeah. So you should not be with cheaters. To stand by what you did. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. You know, that's my big thing with anything in relationships like tell me the truth. Yeah, exactly. Because what if I said, why don't you invite me? I mean, you're looking at it when they're looking dumb. Why? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. What is the most delusional thing love Island has convinced people is romantic and what's one dating role from the show that you keep in real life? Oh my God, from love Island, that God forsaken show. Oh, Jesus Christ. They're lucky. They're lucky. I didn't go over there and liberate those women. How do you nice them? It would look like yellow jackets at the end. Yeah, that's what that's where women, when they're naked and covered in blood and worshipping under the moon, that's what they would have been doing. If I was on that island, I was going to sit in the line of theory trust and believe they would have been naked dancing under a moon and there would be no men alive. I promise you that. If I was there, that's what I would have done. I think like the worst trend out of that is, I guess it's like the, this is so stupid and removed, but it's like being like chosen, I guess like it, I would say in the last couple of seasons, especially it's been very like, oh, he chose me. It's going to be like a weird, I don't know. No, seriously, and I did that because he didn't. It's so crazy and so horrible. Right. Maybe he got bad ass taste. Yeah, they got exactly why we, again, it's going back to what you're saying before, like, who cares? And I guess it's only a few men on the island. Yeah, but send me home. Yeah, send me all care. Give me my wee pen and I'm getting on the boat. They don't find me. The one I thought, the one I felt, we ain't going to work together and win the show. Yeah, exactly. That's what I was like, it should, if we're not locking in as like a accomplices, then send me home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like send me home. It's okay. Vote me off. Just vote, just vote. Literally home. Any dating things that you did like on there? I don't like this is too much. I know. And I love kissing. Me too. But there was a lot of juice and I'm out. They got too much food going on. Well, they have that and my belly out the whole time. I'm in a two piece 24/7. I don't get to wear my three XT not once. They wouldn't let me if I went on there. It is bad news for weeks. I don't want anything that like, like, or head, you know, just your head. You got really hair. Yeah, it's true. Everybody got to be that humidity. It's like I got to just be ball. He hit a ball. Yeah, I would say that I did like out of it. I love when the men are really terrible and then women online get together and make some of the funniest content I've ever seen. Like when women are making memes and stuff of it, it's the funniest thing in the world to me. I think that's because women are hilarious. So like, I love that that's come out of it. Yeah. That way, especially when they link up, but like, I saw one clip where this guy said, like, I choose her because she puts me above herself all the time. I know what you're talking about. And I was trying hard not to mention any names because I don't want nobody dog pod. And I hate everybody get dragged. Now I want nobody coming out the villa needing and getting mental health. So please don't drag nobody. But I know it. When I saw that clip, I would be devastated. If that were me, if I was I'm sitting at the fire pit, like, and he says, I'm picking her because she puts me above herself. No, I don't. No, I don't. The compliment is that you're complimenting me because I'm sintering it. But that's the compliment for me. Oh my God. The way I would be like, no, and that's how she died. Yeah. That's me telling Ariana. I'll be honest, Ariana. Not feeling great. I didn't love that speech. I feel like he could have said other things about me, but no worries. I know we're okay. Okay. Wait a minute. Here we go. What is one green flag? People don't appreciate enough. Oh, I'm excited. Are you going to say a green flag that is not appreciated enough? I'm trying to think I'm like, what do you mean? That's awesome. I'm only thinking about my man, obviously. We'll share. I would say if they have like special interests or interests that are like, I guess like so specific to them. So like, I think that's something that's really sweet. And like, if fostered can be really beautiful. So like, for example, when you look at my man, like, like, you would have an idea of what you think he's like. Obviously, just based off perception. But like, my man loves animals. Like loves loves loves animals. But more specifically, he loves like sea creatures and like bugs, which is just so interesting and like, why take me to your world. Yeah. So like, asking him a lot about animals and like watching him explain to me, like the behaviors and habitats of animals or like watching animal documentaries together. I think that's those are green flags that are really, really sweet. And I think a lot of really good men have interests that span things. And I guess like things that are not based in like masculinity. So like, if you like sports boring, right? Like, it's like music like kind. Like, is it all like normal? Like, guy, guy, like, is it like that? Or is it something so interesting and so like unique? I've never known someone like, I've never known someone to love bugs the way that he loves bugs. And like, I mean, that's so sincerely. He knows so much about bugs and it's so weird. And like for his like 31st birthday, I did this like safari park thing. So we like went to the San Diego safari park shots out love them. And like we did like a whole tour. And I mean, I have never seen him like light up like that because he got to learn so much about animals. And I think like that is so cute and so sweet. And I think those are really green flags. I think when you find something that they really love and it's just something they've just always loved and kind of looked into themselves. I think that's really sweet. And it's a good indicator of like a good man, like a man who loves something purely for the love of the game doesn't is not embarrassed about it talks about it. I think that's a really cool green flag. I love Pele. I don't even know. Okay. This is a good last one. I think. Wait a minute. There's two here. I'll give you the choice. Okay. Okay. One is which celebrity do you think is the internet's most misunderstood person? That's one. Okay. The other one is what's something women are constantly told they should care about that actually doesn't matter. Oh. Well, I can answer. I'll answer the second one first because that's easy. Well, your body looks like. Yeah. Like that something that women are constantly beat over the head with about how important it is. It's really not. And it's like and it doesn't and with the right man like it never matters. And I get when it matters to you, you know, matters to your own self, but I love what you're saying where it's like, you know, that's different than feeling like it's going to impede on your ability. Right today. Yeah. It's like, it's almost like I've talked about before like my style really expanded and grew once I unpacked my internalized fat phobia because like there's this like hidden thing in your head constantly for women where you're like, I, oh, I look fat in this or I, oh, I look big in this or this makes me look big. And I feel like once I let go of that, which I didn't even realize I was consciously doing my style just finally got there. Like I found the style that I really liked because I wasn't so concerned with fatness because it doesn't matter ultimately. So I would say like with women, it's how your body looks and any any season of your life, like no matter what, it really does not matter at all. It's we're just convinced to think it does. And then most un-miss understood celebrity, I've met quite a few of them, trying to think. It would be a tie, I think, between the rock and chapel. And why you think the rock misunderstood that everybody loves him down? They do love him down. But I think there's also more. No, I think the perception of him is very like, you know, he's just this huge like magnanimous person which he is, like that is true. But he cares very deeply about how people see him. He cares a lot about how he's perceived in terms of being a kind person and being a thoughtful person. He cares a lot about that. And I don't think that's ever for-fronted for him. It's always like, you know, he's just big and famous and huge and strong and whatever. He's a symbol. Yeah, exactly. He's like a figment of people's imagination. But he's a very real person and he's a dad and he's a husband and he's a son. Like, he's many, many things I think that are not thought of first when you think of him. And then with chapel, yeah, she's also someone who I think is perceived to be this impervious, strong. Now what's impervious? Just like indestructible. Like, she's just so unaffected by a lot of things which is, I think, true to an extent, but she is very shy and very concerned. She can be theater keyed. Yeah, she is and she's sweet and she's nervous and she's like, you know, she loves nature and she loves going outside. and she loves being normal. And so I think like the way that they perceive and talk about her is also so wrong. And like so, and ultimately mean. I think that's a lot of time. I think that about the rock too. I feel like some, the way people talk about them so freely and openly is very mean. It can be very mean and it matters to a good person. And I've said this before now, and you know this too, especially I'm sure, to get to like a certain level of fame and notoriety. I've said before, it's either the best person you've ever met or the worst person you've ever met in your entire life. Like all celebrities are made, they're either one or the other. And I think it's because the only the truest and purest of heart will survive, right? To some extent, or the most evil people in the world because they don't care about anybody. And so I think that's why like the two of them feel like very similar in that to me, where they're like really, really genuinely good people that have just been dealt. An unbelievable and sometimes unfortunate hand. So. - I love talking pop culture with you. - Me too. - I love talking you with you. (laughing) - I'm just so glad you came on the pop. - I'm so glad you had me. - You are a hoot and a holler. And I do have to say before we leave really quick, back in the day, when I was big on TikTok and I used to really (beep) people up on Twitter. I just have to tell you, I told myself I would tell you this if I ever like got to sit and chat with you. - I'm nervous. - No, but like there was a time where they were being, someone was being mean about you on Twitter. When I tell you which I was going to town and bat for you, I'm not kidding. I have never seen hate like that in my life and I was fighting on the front line. - Hey, you go, 'cause I'll be, (laughing) - They be having me in hell. (laughing) - And I literally was like, I remember people going, well, that's so funny. Drew's just defending Kiki Palmer for no reason. (laughing) - That's just something. 'Cause I was getting mad. - Because you see my heart. - Yes, 'cause I was getting mad watching it. And I was like, I can't. - And like, oh, we're not perfect, but we try. - No, listen, listen. And I was like, - You're just liable and cool. - You wear so many hats and I just have to say like, you are an icon to me in many ways. But I just genuinely, I think you're incredible and I think you're amazing. And I do think you are one of a kind bitch. And so I was like, I am gonna, I'm going to protect that precious jewel with my life. Listen. - Real recognize of me. - And I really mean that. - I just had to tell you that 'cause I was like, when I was on there, I was going to bat for you, bitch. - Girl, I love you. - 'Cause I knew you were amazing. And I was right. - 'Cause I'm psychic, 'cause we're girls. - Because I'm living with girls. - Period. - Yeah. - Thank you so much. - Thank you for having me. - Ah. - What an honor. - Yeah, it's hug. (laughing) (upbeat music) - This conversation reminded me that so many of us spend our lives following the rules we never choose. I love how Drew's shown people that it's okay to question those rules, to trust yourself and to create a life that's true to who you are. And in that process, she's built a community where women lift each other up. Instead of competing with one another. Thank you so much Drew for being here. And for reminding us that when we question the rules, we've been given and trust our own voice. We don't just change our lives. We make it easier for other people to do the same. Like that Mary William some clone. Yeah. I like that. ♪ Baby, this is ♪ ♪ This is Kiki ♪ ♪ Baby, this is ♪ ♪ Kiki, call my yeah ♪ [BLANK_AUDIO]