Dr. Orna Guralnik: Couples Therapy 101 (FBF)

what is up daddy gang it is your founding father alex cooper with call her daddy dr orna garalnik welcome back to call her daddy i am in shock that it's been what i think it's three plus years right unbelievable i i i sort of didn't feel like it was three years i it feels like a year and a half ago right yeah i guess it's also because like we do stay connected and we do communicate through email which makes me so happy um but we haven't literally seen each other in three plus years which is bananas to me to anyone who is new here daddy gang orna is a psychologist and psychoanalyst and she is the star on the docu-series couples therapy where you counsel real patients about their lives in their couple dynamic um and a new season is coming out yes and matt is screwed because when a new season of couples therapy comes out i go mia i sit in my room and i binge the entire thing in one sitting so thank you okay you have to explain to me how you process all of that information like in one binge i think it's because i get so invested in these people's lives and i want to know like are they going to stay together are they going to progress like what is the trauma that they're about to uncover and like i think it feels like the most real show i've ever watched like you're so incredible at extracting information from people in a way that makes them feel comfortable but also like you fall in love with these people yeah you know and i love that we get to see their home life and we get to see them as like real humans and it's not just this like fake facade of like a fun show to watch people talk about trauma yeah so i'll be binging i'm very very curious to talk to you after you watch the show on this show i have been so open about my therapy journey i've been open about having a psychologist as a mother and just like what that has allowed me to embrace in my life maybe where people who were raised in a home that like weren't as open about therapy it has more of like a negative connotation and stigma but couples therapy i feel like everyone now is like oh my gosh get into therapy it's the best thing but couples therapy still has this negative connotation for couples why do you think there's such a big stigma around it well i think first of all there's this i don't remember if we talked about it last time but there's this like really intense firewall around couples in general well people do not like to share the fact that they're having struggles and trouble in their couple's relationship with other people there's some need to kind of preserve a certain kind of um some kind of facade of what a couple is like especially when people get married um so in that sense it's not only the couple's therapy it's just the idea that couples are having trouble is very scary for people they don't want to talk about it they don't want to expose it um it's almost like they're calling in bad spirits if they talk about it it's a good point and i also think there's a fear of if you share too much in a vulnerable moment then when the next day you're fine and you're at the park and you're smiling you almost feel this shame of like oh i'm embarrassed and i i feel like i can't recover from what i shared like i definitely had moments in the very beginning of my relationship with matt where like i would share with a friend if we had a fight and then i felt a little awkward because i'm like well we're still together but like we worked through it and and then the friend is is almost like wanting to check in on you and you kind of don't want to keep bringing it up so it's like there's this like social element of you don't need to they don't see everything right and when you share the bad they also don't want to leave that bad impression right and also you you're responsible you have another person's trust in your hand yeah so talking about it it's a little bit like does your partner have the consent if you have they given the consent it's complicated how does someone know if they should start couples therapy with their partner funny people ask me that um i'm not of the of the school that believes that everyone should be in couples therapy and it's always good i i don't think so um i think there's a certain kind of window in which couples therapy is a good idea if you're in a relationship and you feel like there's a certain kind of pattern that feels destructive and not like not a growth pattern that keeps repeating and you and your partner are trying different ways to change it and nothing's changing you feel like you're kind of stuck and whatever you're doing is just either repetitive or making things worse that's a good time to bring in a third person and and and try to get some perspective on it do you feel like if someone comes to you and they're like i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know and is like i'm terrified he's gonna cheat and you're like well has he given you any reason to that he's gonna cheat and she's like no but my past and whatever then it's like would you ever be like so you probably need to go to individual therapy right okay yes because it's like that that's not a good idea to go to couples therapy in that moment right before anything bad happens right i mean but people sometimes do that it's like they think of it as like premarital counseling like tell me how to like avoid all the problems that life is going to present me with and it's like there's no way life's going to present you with problems and patterns are going to emerge and you can't like protect yourself against it it's life it's like go in and live it and and when you need to get someone to help you and then on the other end of things if people wait too long sometimes it's too late really i mean it's it's a very sad thing but you know i i see sometimes couple that come in after years and years of slogging it and and kind of avoiding the problem or repeating issues and by the time they come in there there's just like not enough goodwill left in them not enough love or not enough hope and as much as they try it's really hard to resurrect the relationship so that's interesting so that's kind of the window for me okay what if someone's sitting here listening orna and is like i want to go to couples therapy so badly but my partner refuses and has no interest like common how do you deal with that there's one thing which is to get over the hump of starting therapy which often one person is more resistant and more scared of doing that um and that getting over that particular hump of just the beginning is not i don't think it's a big deal i mean i i can tell people look just like ask your partner give it a try or barter you know say something like if you come with me to couples therapy i'll offer this for you i'll go your way in some other way you know we can go like take that trip i've always refused to do or i don't know yeah so getting people through the door is not that hard but then it's the job of the therapist to make sure that both people feel like it's a safe place it's a place where both of them can get something out of it because i think what often people are afraid of is that they're going to be dragged out of the into a therapist's office and they're going to be ganged up on and everyone's going to try to force them to give up something that matters to them to change in a way that they don't feel is right for them or it's not going to be for them and you know the the job of the therapist is to make sure that you're really helping the couple not one person and i think once two people feel like they're really being heard and that they both have something to gain from it they're going to want to stay yeah i think that's what is a huge misconception about couples therapy from the person that is not wanting to go and is kind of reluctant like i think so many people are like i'm literally going to get attacked yeah and i guess there if you could like explain to people maybe that are listening like what can they expect in couples therapy because you're right i think people are terrified of it i think that the person that sets it up the other person is like oh they're you guys have a plan and i'm not in on it and you guys are going to try and like push me into a corner like how would you explain it to someone who has never done it but is a little trepidatious about going into it but is like or no what what am i going to walk into that's a really good question um i think what i would say to people is like think about therapy about couples therapy as a place where you have the chance to really imagine what you want out of the relationship and i think that's a really good question i think that's a really good question um i think that's a really good question i think that's a really good question and to have in the therapist an ally of the relationship someone who can help you and your partner get to something that you actually want together meaning it's not a situation where anyone should feel cornered i mean there are moments when people are gonna face difficult things about themselves and be asked to grow and expand and and maybe give more than they're used to but the ultimate idea is that you're you're there to gain you're there to gain something that matters to you and if that's not happening in therapy you're not in the right place i think that's incredible to hear, though, because I think anyone that hasn't been raised around therapy being a healthy, happy, positive thing, it's a really intimidating experience to even conceptualize because you're picturing someone staring at you, judging you. Right. And that is intimidating because vulnerability is intimidating in the first place. And to have someone that's like a specialist, I could see someone who's not aware of how a therapist actually acts towards you could be like, oh, this bitch is going to fucking judge me and it's going to tell me I have all this trauma and it's going to be painful. Yes. Yeah. And why are we opening all this up? I'm fine right now. Yeah. And it's like, well, you're fine until the next fight starts. And then you go back to your patterns because of whatever happened in your childhood, when you were in your home, the way your parents treated you, that you like it's all connected. Like why people don't go, for example, to have a mammogram or a colonoscopy. That they're both like afraid that it's going to be painful. Fear. And they're afraid of like what they're going to find out. And that is not what happens in therapy. So true. It's, it should feel, I mean, it's not like, you know, Luna Park, it's not like fun, fun, but it should feel like an enriching, good experience of like being heard, understanding someone else kind of in a richer, deeper way. There's clarity. Yeah. And truth. Yeah. So I'm curious, I feel like a huge part of the, of the show is people come to you and are trying to learn how to manage conflict. I mean, it's like, that's every relationship. How do we fight? How do we communicate? How are we going to handle these things? What is the biggest mistake that you see people making when arguing with their partner? There's people, I don't know if to call it a mistake, but I think where conversations go wrong, where conflict goes wrong is first of all, just on the simple, level of, um, level of agitation. Like again, like I was talking earlier about like a window, like a good window, there's a good window in which decent conversations can happen. And that's when you're not either too upset or too activated or too wounded that you can't actually process. And then the conversation is not a real conversation. It's just like either, uh, crying, screaming, whatever match. Um, and on the other end, you can, people can feel so, um, shut down or hopeless that they're not really engaging. There there's a, they're withdrawing from the conversation. So, so the, the, um, maybe the most basic thing for people, for a good conversation, for good conflict would be to make sure you're in the right zone. You're not too shut down and you're not too over whatever agitated. Yeah. The other big kind of, you know, kind of, you know, kind of, you know, kind of, still tactical issue is, and, and this is, it might seem just tactical, but it's actually pretty deep. Are you noticing when you're busy trying to convince your partner of something? And when are you actually trying to understand them? Shots fired. Yeah. Right. It's huge. It seems like it should be simple, right? Right. But it's huge. And I see it in my couples. I actually just had a session with a couple this morning, um, where they kind of realized that difference and what, how it will change things if they really move into deep listening mode rather than convincing, convincing. Right. And it changes everything. It does because it's like, when you're in those moments, you almost have blinders on where you're like, I will get him to understand my point. Hell or high water. Yeah. And he's on the other side being like, I need her to understand what I'm saying. And so you're just like hitting a wall and it's balancing back at you and you feel crazy and you're like, no, how don't you hear me? And then it's like, if you can get to a better, yes, you're literally, nothing is penetrating. It's like, and people get increasingly frustrated. Both sides get increasingly, cause it's not a conversation. It's not. On the show you say, and this is kind of what we're talking about. You're like, I don't know what to do. I'm talking about, but I think this is like a huge thing for my listeners that they always write in about. You talk about how there is usually so much more to the fight than what the couple is actually specifically arguing about in that moment. How does one step back and see the bigger picture? Cause it's difficult. It's very, I think, I think the, you know, when, when it's in the heat of the moment, when, when the iron is hot, I think it's a lot to ask of people to really what's going on and what might be feeding the superficial fight. I think maybe a realistic thing to ask of people is to have a voice in there that says to one says to oneself, I'm sure it's not only about this. There must be other things going on for me that I'm not exactly aware of right now. I'm going to, if I need to, if I feel like I'm getting too, you know, there could be signals that you're getting too heated about something that shouldn't be. And then you can say to yourself, maybe I should pause, think about it for a while and come back to the conversation, not in the heat of it. Yeah. But just to maintain this kind of kernel of curiosity, I have an unconscious, there might be other things going on here. There are signals that you give yourself when you're like, when you get too excited about something too upset, like there's a feeling that you get when, when something else is going on. Yep. I love that in the show though, when you have those moments with someone, because again, I think like sometimes in romantic relationships, there's a dynamic that you're trying to sustain and like the ego does come into play sometimes. And so I understand when I watch people on the show, like one person doesn't want to give it up. But then when you ask the brilliant question of like, can we pause for a minute? What do you think this out? What else is this about for you? Like what happened? Like what was your relationship with your mother? Yeah. And then all of a sudden the person goes down a spiral of like, well, she never gave me attention and I was always fighting for attention for my mother. And then all of a sudden, before she even finishes the sentence, she's like, oh, I guess it's because she, she never is looking at me in a way that I feel like I'm having to like ask her for attention. Like it's all these inner dynamics that we had growing up. I know that when it's in the moment, when you're, when your partner triggers you, let's say in the way your mom triggered you, it's very hard in those moments to, to like step out and say, oh, it's my mother issues that are playing out right now. Cause it feels so real and so intense in the moment. Yeah. It's hard. It's hard for people to do. Do you have any advice? Like how do we check in on ourselves and determine if we're picking a fight quite literally just for the thrill of conflict? Like, I think people do love conflict. Yes. Give us some advice, Orna. I like that you're saying that the thrill of conflict, because I talk to people about that. Um, people don't usually like to acknowledge that. I think what I would say is first of all, it's great to acknowledge that there is such a thing as the thrill of conflict. Okay. And I'm going to say something even slightly provocative. There's nothing bad with that. Okay. Orna. I know. Who is she? No, I'm not like, I don't think like the, I mean, people are different in what they need in their relationship, but I think sometimes people who need to have fights or, or pick on each other or let out some steam through the relationship, or I think that's okay. I mean, it's relationships are not supposed to be this kind of hallmark picture. Perfect. Like sweetness, right. It's, it's a place where people live, um, and discharge on each other, um, and use each other and in small ways, betray each other and recover. I think that's life. And, and I think for people not to be so hard on each other for using each other in that way for, for living in the relationship, it's just like, you know, I often talk about the fact that I don't, I don't use, use coasters on my furniture. I'm like furniture is to be used, like, like leave a stain and cut through the board. And, and it's like, that's what it's here for. And relationships are like that too. You want the relationship to be in a live place. I think where it gets, um, problematic is if you're really hurting each other. And if there's something too pernicious about it, or if like the thrill of injury is what takes over or, of retaliation or injury, that's when I'm like, I draw the line and I'm like, no, that is not, you're not there to like, um, abuse each other. And not every fight is an abuse. That's a really great point because I think when couples say like, oh, we had a fight, like most of the time you could also change it to like, we had an argument or like we had a disagreement. Yeah. And I think when you're right though, like it, it can be healthy to have fights, because you're working through something, but there is a difference between a fight and then something that is like absolutely abusive. abusing the relationship and is getting you nowhere and it's just to push and hurt but I love what you said though um about how there should be conflict and these relationships like we're living in them I think we've watched growing up for decades and decades like historically when you think of romantic relationships they're held on a different pedestal than every other relationship in our life like who the hell has a perfect relationship with their parents with their siblings with their friends like of course you're gonna have conflict disagreements growing pains with friends and family why do we think that that wouldn't also be true and present in romantic relationships the person you're the closest to right yeah that you have to like live with and wake up with and like load the dishwasher away right right and I think that's like it it's it's helpful to talk about that to make people feel better of like of course no relationship is perfect but when your primary dynamics were in the household you were growing up in of course families are gonna fight now your new family that you're building of course there's gonna be problems but it's how do we actually like address the problems is it to be cutting and to go beneath the bell and to make the person feel bad or is it like you're talking through a disagreement and like you're gonna sit at the table all night till you guys can find a way to come back together I need to know this is for all the daddy gang out there that are like don't call us out why do some people find toxic relationships so exciting and so addicting hmm okay good question how how would we frame it um I mean the the more kind of classical psychoanalytic way to yeah think about like why people get pulled towards like abusive and toxic relationships is that it's some form of what we call in jargon repetition compulsion okay where something is unresolved let's say a past dynamic is unresolved or past trauma or a way that you were treated in an earlier stage of your life is unresolved and unworked through and you're kind of looking for some way to repeat the same issue that you haven't resolved um whether it's to master it to to come out of it better or because there's just this kind of um compulsion to just repeat the same thing so that's one reason people get stuck on on toxic but there are other ways to think about it like toxic relationships one of the things they do and toxic relationships I mean sometimes it's too wide a term I like I think maybe not I don't think we need to go as far as like it's abusive it's just like this very unhealthy like this person is constantly playing games constantly like is there a version of like little gaslighting like it's not full-blown gaslighting like you know what I mean yeah um it's you know I often try to like when I talk to people about like they're clinging on to relationships that are not good for them sometimes it's um when a person feels on some level damage or bad about themselves or um shame about certain aspects of themselves they at times go for situations that reinforce that view of themselves interesting because as you were saying that I was having a moment where I was thinking about when I was in college I had been like super insecure when I was younger and I would go for these men that like it was like I was trying to get the the guy that was so unattainable and when I would get him I was like playing the game back but there was a part of me that like enjoyed it because it felt like it was like validating to me like you got him like you did it and it was almost like healing the wounds of me feeling like no guy wanted me when I was younger and like I would get picked on and so when I would get these guys that was like the captain of the hockey team it was like I almost was going for like in my brain accolades of like I want to get there to prove it was more to prove to myself I can I never felt fulfilled I never felt happy but it was like I was replaying oh if I was younger these are the things I wish I could have done and then I got there I'm like well this isn't fun right like I don't feel happy I don't feel seen but it was like an ego thing almost right and you can and that is in a certain way you're trying to repair something yeah but sometimes it's I mean you can in a way flip it and you can see people who are not doing it to repair they're doing it actually to just keep telling themselves I suck I suck and what do you what is that mostly from childhood that it's a form I mean you can think of it as masochism but it's it's like um it's a it's being stuck on a certain kind of repeat it's um self-negating I mean people do all sorts of neurotic things that are bad for them yeah for I mean that's why we have psychoanalysis I mean yeah there are many ways that people do things that are bad for them have you found through psychoanalysis like any repeating pattern from childhood that would make someone constantly try to remind themselves of how they're not worthy not good enough yes can you share just a couple examples well the classic example I mean it's kind of an extreme example but think of the classic pattern of people who've been let's say sexually abused as children and then in teenage years they're like they enter like a series of like abusive promiscuous relationships that just make them feel like shit because that's the only way they can they know how to think of themselves it's like an endless self-punishing cycle it's very I mean it's like a very particular kind of dynamic with people who've had like early abuse that it takes like deep work to move out of that pattern but you know that's so helpful yeah I think because I think again why I appreciate these type of conversations in the show is like I think a lot of people who maybe have not even begun to like experience therapy or thought about it or just wasn't a part of their upbringing like that statement alone could would be crazy to people like hold on so someone that was abused is now going to go and like and put themselves in harm's way right and it'd be like wait what like I think they just never have sex for the rest of their life and they'd be shut down that's just not the case but I think these type of conversations help explain to the intricacy of trauma and how it unfolds in your adult life but I appreciate you sharing that because I'm sure I mean one in every what three women like so many women listening to this show may be sitting there like oh my god Orna yeah I think I'm I think I'm doing that and how do you even begin to like what just therapy and talking through it I know the work of therapy I mean there are other ways that people deal with issues but in psychoanalytic work what we do is we I mean this is like yeah it's different with each person but um you basically the idea is that you try to go back and revisit the actual experience and help the person now with their more mature mind really tend to what happened to them to the injuries to to what was missing try to imagine how things could get better like you really try to tend to all the areas that were disavowed and neglected over the years and and heal and I understand why that sounds absolutely terrifying to people yeah like people with that type of trauma or any type of trauma you're like hold on Orna I'm supposed to go back and relive it right are you crazy like I put it away I tucked it away right but I think what people realize when they come out on the other side of it is there's such power and resilience you feel within yourself when you can go back and you can start to take control over your own life and not let this thing that happened to you yeah define you yeah because it does start to define you when you don't right address it it comes up in your romantic and your friendships and every part of your work life um and that's when it gets terrifying and people it's so important for people to feel like they're not like you're saying defined by bad things that happened to them in the past that they have some freedom some degrees of freedom out of that and it's so important for people to feel like they're yeah back to couples how big of a role does sex play in a healthy relationship um it's funny I just saw something in the in the times today that I haven't read yet but about like people that are talking about how sex is not that important in their marriage I think it varies a lot I think not only is sex like a you know this kind of domain that could goes anywhere and people have all possible things in their mind and in their bodies, and that can transpire between them. And sex is like, a huge terrain but um the importance of sex and like what meaning people assign to sex in their relationship varies a lot um i think for some people having an ongoing connection through the body through sexuality is incredibly grounding um and without that they feel um unmoored and for other people it's not like their main it's not where they live it's not where the essence of their life is i mean for some people it might be like in the far-out intellectual domain and and the body is kind of a uh sort of byproduct that they tag along but they really live in their mind and they want to live there with their partner it really varies a lot between people because i've had conversations with friends and i have a large spectrum as you would expect like i have one friend that's like my parents weren't overly affectionate so i don't find myself like i don't like need sex i actually just like crave more conversation exactly whereas i have other friends that are like oh i like the only way i know that we're like in a good place is if like we've gone too long without sex i'm like what's wrong with us like are we disconnected yeah and i though i'm curious if you have a couple where one is on one side of the spectrum and one is on the other that then stuff that's tough right it's tough definitely it's tough um if if people come into the relationship on with very different let's say love languages or inclinations that is tough what's interesting is that um couples might start off not that different from each other i mean one might be more physically affectionate or have like a stronger libido or like find sex is like where they express themselves and the other maybe a little less sometimes what happens and that is a problem is that people work out other tensions or difficulties through in that arena and then they polarize so explain that someone could i mean the bedroom is often where people sadly work out other agendas so someone could be like mad at their partner for i don't know like not picking up the slack or taking care of the kid or whatever and withhold sex it's easy for them to withhold sex because that's not exactly their mode of operating but for the other party it might be like oh i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't feel like the worst kind of punishment and like the most threatening thing to do and then and then you get into the dynamic of polarization so they may not have started so different but it's they're working out some other issue through in that domain and that is a problem well that's also a problem because the person that is not let's say as this is just i'm just throwing this out there sexual i'm that's not the actual right term but if the person that's not as sexual in the right because they're holding the keys to the sexual relationship right and the person that wants it is then at times probably feeling like i'm such the pursuer constantly yeah i feel like i'm being rejected i feel like i'm not getting the love i want where the other person is like all you care about is sex right because you just keep coming to me for it but then they're like well because you never come to me for it and they're like because you're always wanting it like how the hell do you like how do you approach a conversation i guess when you're in these dynamics with these couples to like bring them back to center there's no one size fits all i mean it really with each couple it's a different thing um but what i find happens a lot in couples therapy is that you have to try to separate if people are trying to negotiate other issues in a way to pull it out of the relationship so if you're working on if you're resentful about other things just try not for the bedroom to be the arena where you're like working it out unless it really is about the bedroom right if you both have just complete different sex drives like how do you approach a conversation with your partner is if you are dissatisfied in the bedroom like how do we because that's a tough conversation and can be awkward tough conversation and i would actually probably start off by assuming i mean unless it's a very verbal couple mm-hmm i would actually not start with language okay um a lot of sexual needs and differences it's great to resolve i mean if you're going to try to work on it to do it in real time through the body like signal through the body through non-verbal ways what you want what you need experiment with things and i guess it depends on the couple like what works for them working it out in real time or working it out like when you're not in the middle of a sexual encounter when vulnerabilities are high passion is high it's a tricky thing to use language in those moments it's so tricky because i mean unless you're in deep deep therapy like you got to be very careful because you can completely shut down and like i agree to not like gender it but like it let's say it is the woman coming to the man like it can just make them feel so shut down where they're like how long have you been thinking about this you're dissatisfied they're feeling emasculated or roles reversed the man is the woman comes to you and you're feeling like oh my god have you not been enjoying the sex every time we're having sex who are you thinking of like sex is a very very vulnerable thing in a relationship and i think you're i never thought about it that way you're right it's like if you can address it first with your body like let's say the person is dissatisfied because ever i'm making this up like every time you're having sex with your partner you're feeling like it's you're disconnected like you're having physical sex but it just feels physical and connection okay well instead of saying that like you're right or like maybe you're when is the last time in the morning are you hugging and kissing before you each leave for work or no you're just kind of ships in the night and you see each other and of course when you're having sex of course it doesn't feel intimate and special are you hugging are you touching do you hold hands like you want more connection of intimacy when you're having sex put intimacy throughout the rest of your relationship first before like you're right like and then all of a sudden do it while you're intimate while you're having sex i mean there are ways that people can increase that kind of intimacy while they're having sex not through words right looking at each other right kissing while you're having sex like maybe you guys never kissed while you're having sex that could feel a little like isolating where you're like this could be anyone so i love that advice because i do feel a lot of people write into me just like i literally don't know how to tell my partner like i'm not happy i think that's like a very non-daunting way to go about it it's like first just slowly trying to make those steps yourself within the relationship and you don't have to have this big like blow-up conversation yeah why blow up at all i mean when we're talking about sex i mean there's the other thing which is like frame things as requests as opposed to as complaints i mean that's always a good piece of advice which is like translate what's bothering you into a request into an ask rather than a complaint i mean the outcome could be very different can you give us an example of like how it would be bad to say a verse a good way to say it like you never kiss me versus let's kiss it sounds so simple but like it's so not that simple when you're in the moment and he's like doing the dishes and you're like okay here i go here i go why don't you kiss me yeah ever when we ever kiss me i don't know the last time that you made out with me we're having sex and he's literally like mid-dish wash what happened what what just happened and meanwhile it's like you also i think something i've learned in therapy a lot and we did it in couples therapy was like something that you have been holding on to that's why it's so good to not hold on to things for too long in a relationship because then you've had 19 conversations with yourself right and they have no idea you've been thinking this right so then when it comes out it can literally feel like a war and the person is what is happening i thought our sex life was right recently yeah so you're right it's like hey you know what i would love to make out when we're having sex i was thinking about that like i love making out with you why don't we do it when we have sex like making i wouldn't even say why don't oh don't say why don't nope let's let's shall we yeah shall we to the bedroom as opposed to why don't we but it's i love these conversations with you orner because when we are going on our day to day lives like it is hard to remember all these things and sometimes it's good to just have these slow down conversations of like all of us are the way we are because of everything that's come before us within our lives and when you're standing across from your partner it is not just the day we met on our first date and forward it's like no no life existed before this person and what happened to you um i'm curious like when we talk about past trauma because i think this is i think a lot of most people assume we're talking about extreme situations which we can of course we could do a whole episode on extreme situations like abuse but But can you talk about other types of childhood dynamics that can impact us in adulthood? Yeah, of course. I mean, first of all, there's, you know, what I mean, I think it's quite popular now to talk about like attachment styles. But the very first patterns of relatedness that we establish with the people that take care of us, often parents, not always. They will influence the rest of our lives. They will set the kind of expectations we have. For example, a simple and very important thing, like if you need something and you make an ask to the world, will the world respond or not? Like you're saying if you asked your parents when you were younger for help on something and. Before even ask for help, like your diaper was wet and you started crying. How long did it take for your parent to get there and change your diaper? If you were colicky and you had like incredible stomach aches, was it even possible to help you with it? Sometimes it's really difficult to help colicky babies and they start off the world with some idea that when I'm in distress, the world can't always help me. Oh my God. Yeah, it's like, it's really like basic stuff of like what to expect. From like the world, like do I have that like incredible trust that when I'm in distress, help will come? Those are really early things that get established and they're not always because of neglect or abuse. Sometimes it's just like, again, I mean, you can be a colicky baby or you can have all sorts of ways that your system is dysregulated and it's very hard to take care of you as a baby. And then you start off with a pattern of, I don't know what to call it, mistrust or. Some way that the call and response is not established well. But I think it's important to just like highlight that for a minute because I can imagine a lot of people listening are like, oh, I don't have trauma compared to my friend. Like my friend went through this or was abused when she was younger or did that. And like, I don't have trauma. It's like everyone has something that we all are the way we are because of our upbringing. And I think that when we, instead of being like, well, my stuff. My stuff is not as bad. Take care of yourself and also recognize like, hey, if you find yourself in a pattern in romantic relationships, we're like, why do I keep doing this? Oh, and it does kind of show up at work, too. Like I'm always pulling away when someone's being nice to me. I can't take a compliment or I can't like as simple as that. Where does that come from? And I think when we start to ask ourselves the questions, yes, it leads us down this like little dark path. But it's exciting to know that there is an answer. Yeah. And you can resolve it. And the answer could be. It could be like really interesting, actually, to go down that path and try to figure out. It's actually, it's really interesting. It is. It's fascinating. That's why I told you when I binge this show, that's my answer. When I binge couples therapy, it's because why I love it and I can sit and I can handle it is like one, because that's just how my mother raised me. Like, let's talk for 19 hours and then some. But it really comes down to like, I'm fascinated by the human experience of like, we all grow up. And like, why? What triggers did we experience to make us afraid of intimacy or overly intimate and overly trusting or reserved or outwardly like very dramatic in moments? And people see it as dramatic. But really, what is it? Is it a cry for attention? Because you like, yeah, it's interesting. It's endless. Like, I love it. I love it. I love it. There's a difference between caring for another person and taking care of them and getting kind of enmeshed, symbiotic, lost in someone else, which is not actually an act of care. It's something else. It's, I guess, what in lay language is called kind of codependency. You know, it makes me think a little bit about raising children. Doing everything for them is not always the best thing. Figure out, like, what do they need for their own independence and development? When are you overdoing for your child because of your own issues? Like, in a way, using your child to work through something versus seeing them for who they are. And when do they need a bit of support? And when do you need to step back and let them do their own thing? I mean, that's kind of a very good. Learning ground for this difference between, like, overdoing it and doing it right out of care. I think there are many reasons why people get codependent that are not about care for the other person. Share with me. I mean, you can come from a million reasons why, like getting lost in someone else because you don't want to face something in yourself. You're escaping, like, your own stuff. Insecurities. All sorts of avoidance tactics. I think maybe what I'm trying to say is that it's important to try to ask yourself, am I getting super involved because I care for the well-being of this person? Or am I answering some need of mine here? Hard, hard to decipher. That's what I was going to say. Because, like, is it is it fucked up to say, like, someone that has a secure attachment would probably never get themselves completely. Down a rabbit hole in that situation because they would be like, hold on, love you so much, but like you need help and I can't get this you where maybe it immediately turns on a light for someone of like I needed I wanted they need me and then it becomes codependent because again, back to the beginning of this episode, it's just filling actually something within them to take care of that person. And of course, they think they love them and they're trying, but it also is like completely filling their cup by being like, they need me. And I. I'm here and I'm the caretaker and I didn't have that when I was younger. So now I'm going to take on that role, like whatever it is. That's a really great way of describing it. Yes. But do you think it's almost like in a way also to help someone with that question is like, is this too dramatic to be like, it's almost like when if you're dating someone that has a substance abuse problem, you literally are cannot help that person to a certain extent. Of course, you can drive them to rehab. But they have to walk. They have to walk in the doors. They have to participate in the healing and you're not a professional to help the healing. Right. So when someone has this trauma, you can be there and cry with them and hold them. But it only goes to a certain extent where you're then both being brought down. And if anything, you could be prohibiting them from actually seeking real help because there's this like codependency of like, we're going to do this together. Right. You can't you can't do that together. I agree. They need they need a you. Yeah. Well, yeah. Or a me or an. A situation or. Yeah. More questions from our fans. What are some signs the relationship is moving too fast? You know, a relationship has ideally it. I'm saying this and I'm immediately contradicting myself in my mind. But OK. OK. Let me say the first thing. OK. A relationship has typically like a developmental arc. It takes a lot of time to get to know another person. I always feel like with my patients. It takes me two years to feel like I know this person. Really? Yeah. Yeah. I wonder how my therapist feels about me. How long have you been seeing them? Over two years. Yeah, for sure. I feel like there's a moment in which suddenly it's like, oh. All the pieces are coming together. Now I get this person. It takes a long time to get to know a person. And I think the idea of like moving too fast is when you. Assume you know more than you do. When you think you've got it. You understood everything about them. You get it. They understood you. And in a way you're blocking all the areas that create the discomfort of realizing I don't know that person. That person doesn't know me. Which is scary. It's uncomfortable. It's scary. I think people sometimes have an inclination. To want to avoid that. And rush. So that they don't sit through the discomfort of like otherness and unfamiliarity and awkwardness. Which is part of getting to know a person. There's going to be a lot of awkwardness. So much awkwardness. Yeah. And I like that you're saying that because I have had women write in being like, Alex, I'm officially 30. I'm like, you're so young. Enjoy it. And it's like, no, no, no. I've got to find a husband. And I'm always so worried. because it's like, like listen I think there's moments also where we completely project our wants onto someone and they could be literally sitting at a dinner with you being like yeah so I have this trauma and you're like oh my god you know where we should go this weekend we should go to Cancun and they're literally like you're just putting on them what exactly you want I want a husband you look great you played the part and it's like we sometimes just approach a relationship based off of what we want from it and need from it yeah and we completely neglect the fact that the person across from us is like a stranger yes a complete stranger yeah and it's like this honeymoon phase I think the honeymoon phase can be so tumultuous in the long run if you elongate it for too long and the honeymoon phase is on you to decide when it the bubble pops and you're like so you actually who are you yeah literally you like tell me about your childhood like what what are you insecure about like what is something that has been like one of the biggest hardships in your life like it's daunting but again like you can hear an answer from someone and be like oh I don't want to be with you because of the way you're telling me you handled that with this oh my god I couldn't relate to that at all but sometimes people go sometimes people I mean you've probably seen it how long have you seen people go in a relationship where you can't relate to that at all and you're like oh my god I couldn't relate to that at all or you can sit down with them and they're married for like 30 years and you're like do you guys know each other I know I know like how does that happen it's actually shocking to me it's shocking to me like that's possible right like it is possible I mean it's like people who like their spouse says I want to get divorced and I'll ask them like somebody can show up for therapy and say my my spouse wants to divorce me and I'm like what what have they been what have they been saying to you over the years that will help us understand that and I'm like well I don't know I don't know and they're like I don't know what is that that is um self-absorption how long does it usually take in therapy to come out a while really a while I and I think as we're wrapping up oh my god I sound like a therapist as we're wrapping up you're like sobbing I have done that with my therapist sometimes she's like and we're wrapping up Alex I'm like wait my life's in shambles I appreciate you walking us through that though at the end there because I feel like the whole thesis of this episode is like truly trying to dive underneath all these decisions that we are taking on our day-to-day just at face value oh he treated me like shit oh she did this oh shit why yeah there's always an answer sometimes we don't want to know it but it can give you a lot of peace when you do get underneath it and you know it thank you so much this relationship that we have makes me so happy it does okay I don't know you I'm like emailing you like hi or not no I have like a deep great fondness for you yeah don't make me cry no it's no I really appreciate you and everything you do and I think this show is truly revolutionary we don't get to see therapy working from a start to finish moment and obviously I know it's not finished but we don't get to see the like breaking down of humans and like watching these inner dynamics come from beginning to wherever they're left whether it's breaking up or staying together and so I think what you guys are doing is amazing and I'm addicted so I'll be watching thank you