2967: Dr. Mike Israetel on His Dissertation Controversy — Here Is What Actually Happened

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. MindPump. MindPump. With your hosts, Sal DiStefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews. You just found the most downloaded health, fitness, and entertainment podcast in history, approaching over half a billion downloads. This is MindPump. Today's episode, Dr. Mike Israel Tell on the podcast again. You guys wanted him back, and so we brought him back for a great interview. You can find him on Instagram at Dr. Mike Israel Tell. He is the co-founder of RP Strength, a sports science PhD. He's also a competitive bodybuilder. Now, this episode is brought to you by Viore Clothing. So this is the best athleisure wear company in the world. It lasts a long time. It looks good. It's comfortable. They sell athleisure wear you can wear to more formal events. And then, of course, they sell workout apparel that you can wear while you work out that gives you great movement, a whisk away sweat, super comfortable. We also have the biggest discount on the internet for Viore you'll find anywhere. You can get 20% off by going through our link. So go to vioreclothing.com slash MindPump. Also, for the first time ever, MindPump trainers can individualize a workout program for you. That's right. You can get a MAPS program that was designed specifically for you, your goals, your fitness history, your potential injuries, areas of pain, exercise equipment you have access to, the whole thing. It's an individualized MAPS program. Go to mindmapsprogram.com, fill out the questionnaire. Within a week, you get on the phone with a trainer who delivers to you your own individualized workout program. All right, real quick, if you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over at mindpumpstore.com? I'm talking right now. Hit pause, head on over to mindpumpstore.com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show. Mike, welcome back, dude. Thank you for having me in real life. In real life this time. Yeah. First time we had you on Zoom, which was, how long ago was that we had you on? My timeline's all fucked. Yeah, it was like a couple of years, a couple of years. Yeah, a year or two ago. Two, almost two, you think? Yeah. I don't know, I can't even count. Yeah. It's been a little while. What have you been up to? What have you been up to the last year or two with what you do on social media and in your business? What's going on? Put to business. Money's toxic. I'm in my post-money phase. Now, is that because you believe that or because you just stopped making money? So, now you're like, it sucks. It's a cope. That's really what's going on. That's a good question. What did it? Business is good. All that stuff is good. I'm back training jujitsu again, which is awesome, because I wasn't training it for about a year after I got surgery and needed a heal, and I had a lot of other stuff going on. And so, it's been amazing to be back in jujitsu. And I wrote a book, and it is about vanity. And that's a big thing now. What's that? Because you look great. I thought I had drawn you in my mind only, but here you sit in real life. Fucking Picasso. He said vanity, and he looked right at you. I looked down, too. That's tough. So, let's talk about going back to jujitsu. So, this will get you our timeline, right? You were about to go to surgery, right, when we talked. What surgery was this? Plastic surgery. Penile reductions. Penile reductions. Penile reductions. Penile reductions. No, it was your boy was out here swinging. Stop, dude. Stop, bro. Didn't you do liposuction? Isn't that what it was? I did liposuction, also on the penis. And then you wrote a book on vanity? No, you didn't. I want to know how you connect these. You did actual liposuction. Oh, yeah. Okay, how do you do liposuction, then write a book on vanity? Through hypocrisy. Next question. So, the book is satirical. I wrote the book while recovering from surgery. Yeah. Now, is the book warning against vanity, or are you like, vanity's cool, guys? Inspiration. That people who think vanity is all bad have probably not thought it through. And that vanity is something. So, people who say vanity is like a pure sin are also the kind of people who look you straight in the face and say money is the root of all evil. To which my answer is, okay, well, I can really just sin eat for you and take all of your money so you can be pure good. And they're like, well, actually, I was tied up in various investments. Okay, cool. You're actually a hypocrite. That's fucked up. So, I think people generally, very many people like to look good. They like to look their best. Right. And I think that there are ways in which the pursuit of vanity can get really toxic and really not great for that person, their psychology, people around them. But there's also ways to pursue vanity, like getting more jacked in the gym and, I don't know, brushing your hair or something like that. And feeling your swag in the mirror a little bit that I think is just wonderful and positive and amazing. And I think that over the next 15 years or so, technology is going to get really crazy and allow people to essentially look. Basically, like they're ideal versions of themselves. And already, we can do a lot of stuff about how we look through training, through diet, through cosmetic surgery, through certain drugs. And that there are people out there that have the time, the income, the willpower to look like better versions of themselves. But some of them are holding back a little bit from leaning into that because they think there's something deeply wrong with caring about your appearance. And I think very many people care about their appearance. And most of the people will tell you it's wrong. It's wrong to care about your appearance are, I don't want to say hypocritical, but like hypocritical because a ton of people really give a shit about how they look. And I think it's okay to meet people where they are and be like, hey, you care. What are the tradeoffs? Here are the pathways to make it so that you look better and then you can feel better. And also, the pursuit of vanity in the physical sense of getting leaner and more jacked is actually really healthy for you physically and extends your life and improves your quality of life. There's no dichotomy there. The reason that I got onto this. It was a long time ago. Mr. Nick Shaw, who's the CEO of RP Strength, him and I were trainers in New York City for like really rich people. And a lot of them would come to us and we're like, you know, what are your goals? Because like, you know, we were trained in exercise science, do an intake to figure out what needs analysis, et cetera. And they're like, oh, like, I want to get stronger. I want to get healthier. My insurance, blah, blah, blah. My wife said, blah, blah, blah. And inevitably, within several weeks, they're like, hey, like, we get like biceps going or the abs or whatever. The boots. And I go, that doesn't have anything really to do with strength and health. They're like, OK, cool. Now that we're friends, though, just make me look great. That's the only thing I ever wanted. And if you pull creatively people in gyms, then you realize, like, my contention is that in most gyms across the modern world, in excess of 80 percent, possibly higher of people, they are just so that they can look better. And they say all sorts of things. It's like a girl, a lot of female fitness influencers, no offense, y'all are great, are like, oh, my God, I'm a power lifter. IPF world. And then, like, half of her routine is just glutes, glutes, glutes, glutes, glutes with the selfies. And you're like, all right. All right. You know, it's like a marginal tradeoff on glutes for power lifting at some point. She's like, I just couldn't care less. I want to look like this. And I think, like, us being honest about how much people care about appearance and allow them to lean into it in a healthy way, even if they want to do surgery and crazy stuff like I did to myself, is, like, a really swell idea as long as we're open about the consequences, tradeoffs, and meeting people where they're at. Interesting take. I definitely agree. I'm going to push back, though. I definitely agree that most people's goals – I train people for years. Most people want to do it. They want to look different. That's what gets them in the gym. Oh, yeah. We actually just talked about this this morning. Yeah. And we made the same point you did, which is many times they'll lie to themselves and say it's something else. But deep down, it's I just want to look better. That's very true. Now, I know you're a data guy, too. You like to cite data, and you're very well-versed in looking at data and looking at studies. What does the data say on how much your appearance, separate from everything else, right, just how you look, what does the data say on how much that improves the quality of your life? It's great. It's a great question. We have some good data on this, particularly in the format of people will lose weight. And so we get kind of psychiatric, psychological questionnaires in their hands, and then they lose weight, and we get one in their hands after. There's also a separate large data set of people who go through plastic surgery and do the same thing. So the best quick summary of that data that we know is for the average person who, like, will lose weight that they wanted to lose, right? Right. It's not like cancer patients. Like, how do you feel now? Like, I look great. Oh, wow. That's terrible. I haven't seen my abs in years. There you go. Too hard, Mike. You worked there. It's a true thing. Okay. All right, Mike. So most people who lose weight will have a small to moderate meaningful improvement in their psychological, mental state as far as liking the vibe of their body and how they go through the world. And that means a few things are true. A small fraction of people will have an enormous uplift psychologically from looking better. Most people will have a small uplift. Some people will have no uplift at all, and a small fraction of people will have a downturn. Like, and there's mechanisms to describe which people float into which paths, but the average is like, it's probably going to make you feel a little bit better. Which is, like, for my vibe on how I've interacted with the world and seen tons of clients and other friends and humans, pretty spot on. Like, for some people, it's just like, you guys know, you guys known any girls who've been like, it's time to get politically correct? You've just been the fat girl your whole life. And all of a sudden, you're in your mid-30s, and you have an awesome tech job, and you have tons of free time and a crapload of income, and you're, like, science-pilled or whatever, and you're like, let me, like, figure out how to not look like this anymore. And you get into training. You get into dieting. You take some RETA or whatever. And all of a sudden, like, a year and a half later, you're like, straight up, you're just a hot girl. For people like that, it can be revolutionary. They're a different person because this is some real deep shit. The way people interact with you in the world, especially if you're female, but definitely if you're male, if you're like very fat and unattractive conventionally versus if you're conventionally attractive can be night and day. And then like they're living their lives. It's like a different character. You guys ever picked the wrong character in a video game and like all your friends are like, oh, where are you? Are we on level six? Like this man, this controller doesn't work. This game sucks. This character sucks. But you get the right character and you're like, oh, dope. Like I can punch people and stuff happens. That's what it can feel like at the extremes of living in a very new, very upgraded, very different body. So for those people, a lot of times it's massive uplift. For some people, they have an idea about it's going to be a massive uplift, but they're actually very introverted. And they're actually very uncomfortable with, um, I would say like, like psychosexual interactions. Like you're a girl and you walk by, uh, you know, some part of the gym and the guy's like, Hey, looking good, baby. Which is probably me. Cause that's how I talked to girls. Well, and it's like, it's where I'm single. Uh, but like, if you're not used to that kind of lewd attention for men and you don't like it, but you didn't really know it was a thing. Cause you were not attractive enough to. A lot of it, it scales exponentially. So now you're that little wasted, big glute girl. Everybody had people at the coffee shop, people on the way construction site. Forget about it as like you, you, you, you elevators get weird. And if you don't like that kind of interaction, your life just got a lot worse and it will not stop until you wear hoodies everywhere and fucking hide. And so some of those people see a huge, huge downturn. It's a mixed bag, which is, and I say that because if there's a big difference between saying the average outcome is like pretty decent uplift. Yeah. So, so the, the, the challenge with that is separating, uh, the physiological effects of exercise and healthy eating, the psychological effects of pursuing something hard, accomplishing something, changing relationship with those things and the relationships you have with others from just looking better. Yeah. Uh, is, um, we can look at the, the people who are most satisfied with their body image, uh, who also have the most satisfying sex lives. Okay. So I'll point to that cause you're kind of pointing to attractiveness and stuff like, um, a lot of people don't realize this, but our people in their fifties and sixties who've been married for years and years and years, way out of their prime in terms of how they look. And yet they report back the greatest satisfaction, uh, with their bodies and with their sex lives. Yeah. It's difficult about what you're citing about how it improves your quality of life is it's very true that if somebody is really overweight and they lose weight and they get in shape that they'll probably be less depressed, less anxious, more outgoing, more motivated. Uh, they'll have better productivity, less sick days, all that stuff. But it's, in my strong opinion, it's more result of the, the, the things that they did to get there, not the fact that they look that way. And so in my opinion, if I could snap my fingers and make everybody look what would be considered a good thing, I would say that's a good thing. If I could snap my fingers and make everybody look what would be considered conventionally beautiful. I don't think we would see this huge dramatic increase in people's quality of life, uh, because I would have separated it from all those things. Some of the evidence I like to point to Mike, you know, this, you're in the space. Some of the most unhappy dysfunctional people I know are ripped, shredded, attractive looking Instagram people or fitness people. Uh, and there's tons of dysfunction there. And yet you would think they'd have this great quality of life because they look so good. So, yeah. But I do agree that that's people's goals is to look a particular way. That's a really great point. I think the, uh, cleanest way to see that as plastic surgery before and after is because plastic surgery is entirely bereft of all that other stuff you said. It's not really a journey or so much. You don't really put work into it. Technically you put work into your day job, save up money and plastic surgery is real expensive, but people don't think of it that way. It's not a quality of life change in some sort of way where you're like doing something every day. What makes you happy? It's not an inclusive, it's not a purely like before and after sort of because like you wake up and you're scarred to shit and everything's bloated. Yeah. So taking people's insights like, uh, the day after they're like, I hate this is the worst decision of my life. Three months later they're like, this is the best decision of my life. Those people tend to have that small to moderate uplift on average with all the variation I talked about. So I think actually looking better is a small to moderate increase for most people because they look better. But everything you said about exercise and the lifestyle on top of that and earning it and stuff is absolutely layered on top of that. So you can have a person who just got surgery, let's say to get to the same place, they typically have a small to moderate uplift if you did a not surgery, but you did training and diet and drugs and suffering and community of being in a gym, then you're probably going to get a bigger uplift because it's now a big part of your identity and you've earned it a hundred percent, but they're summative. I don't think they super compete with one another. It's like, why not have both? Yeah. Yeah. You know the thing, what I would, I would, I would love to look at the data on plastic surgery because what you have in that data are people who have had reconstruction surgery. You have, uh, women who had double mastectomies, uh, you have men with, um, or women, uh, with let's something, something that's huge insecurity because it's just, you know, hell yeah. And they come out of that versus, you know, somebody gets multiple procedures and I'd love to look at the data on the improvement in quality of life for somebody who goes back for two, three, four. And I bet we would see is probably a reduction. So I can tell you a preview of what you'd see is a graph looks like a flower. Um, typically people, we'll get surgery and the average person experiences a mild increase in body satisfaction. If you get more surgeries, a number of combination of things start to happen and you get really different people in that same pipeline. I'll give you two extremes. One person who gets surgery knows exactly the vision of the body they want to begin with. It's just going to take multiple surgeries to get there. For example, some people will be really fat for a long time, so they'll need liposuction. That's one surgery. They'll need skin removal. That's another surgery. They'll need facial fat reconstruction because that's another surgery because you got like the turkey chin and shit like that. And then they might even need an abdominal retightening sheath surgery. It's like four or five surgeries, but they knew what they were getting into and they have that ideal look at the end. They're going to be ecstatic a whole large fraction of the time. They're dope. There's another kind of person. This is where it gets dark. And I think to your point where they don't like what they see straight up to begin with, there's maybe not a version of their body that they'll ever going to like. And every surgery they get is a combination of high expectations that finally I love it and concomitant massive reduction of expectations when they realize like, oh, I still hate myself. The vast majority of those people I think have some shit that has nothing to do with appearance making them upset and they have misattributed appearance as the thing that makes them upset. There's tons of them. Yeah. Tons of those people. Yeah. So no, that makes sense. How are you defining vanity by the way? Because do you mean just wanting to look better or like, what do you mean by vanity when you say that? Cause I think that'll help too. Yeah. Um, you guys ever seen that movie? Oh my God. What was it? The devil's advocate with Al Pacino. What a great movie. He's like vanity, my favorite sin or whatever. Anything he says is great. That's what I mean. Okay. And then later, and then later, whatever, the devil says, that's right. That's our citation, the devil, but Al Pacino is the devil's a dope devil. Also later, Keanu Reeves, I think has almost sex with his sister. Right. Do you guys remember that? Do you get a lot of times? I see that. Don't see it again. It's godless. Um, vanity to me is like a concern about your appearance, a care about your appearance. And that if you feel like you're looking good, you feel better. Yeah. And if you feel like you're looking bad, you don't feel as good as you are normally would. Yeah. I don't think that's the, I don't think that's the bad vanity. I think that's fine. Like, uh, wanting to look presentable and professional and good to be on my podcast or for my wife or my wife for me. I think that's totally fine. I think my wife's boyfriend. Yeah. Well, no, I just, in my case, okay, my bad. Uh, but you know, like for example, use the quote, the, um, uh, the root of all evil is money or money is a rule. That's actually, it's a misquote. It's the love of money. That's the root of all evil. That's all wrong. That's wrong too. Yeah. Well, I, so I think maybe the love of vanity would be the issue, but vanity itself might not be like chasing vanity for, for its own sake could be pretty bad. I think we should just be very specific about what we think is bad. Yeah. Vanity is bad when it makes you have a bad time in your head. Like, otherwise it's good because it just clearly hurts. It hurts nobody else. But like, imagine, imagine someone's like, um, you, you are mowing the lawn. It's a push mower. Yeah. And you hate fucking mowing the lawn. Yeah. It's a bad time. And you could be like, dude, he's like, what'd you do today, man? She had to mow the lawn. Like, Oh, that sucks. I know. What if you are like Forrest Gump and you love mowing the lawn? Is mowing the lawn bad or good now? Well, mowing the lawn was just always a thing, but you have good, happy feelings when you're mowing the lawn. You're like, you turn it down. I'm mowing the lawn and everything's great. And so later you're like, dude, how was your day? Cause I mowed the lawn. I loved it. And you're like, Oh cool. That's an oddly accurate Forrest Gump impression. Also, that's fucking weird. It means you had no friends and watch too many movies. So for vanity, I'm aware. of at least a few reasons how vanity can go south one is you play the comparison game which is you start looking at people's instas and your own abs and their abs and your own abs and that almost always it's a moving goal post but also it's like it's a goal post that gets like infinitely far away and like like nanometers in size you're not gonna hit that shit because you're not gonna look better than chris bumstead on his best day the day before the olympia right like you can find his pictures of his physique and you'll be like man i ain't shit that's a really really bad idea okay another one is perfectionism for yourself if you look like so like right now i fuck with this look i like my look right now it's imperfect got a big old gut and shit like that but like whatever it's not a big deal so generally i'm like yeah this is great and like i want to make it better but like i'm patient about that like it'll take time whatever but if i look at myself in the mirror and i'm like still have that gut like i fucking hate this bro this is awful i'm gonna put on bags if i go outside i'm not gonna go outside you're gonna have a really really bad time and so if you avoid that toxicity of for example comparison with others or perfectionism for yourself and you just let the good parts of vanity which is like i look great and i love that and this is awesome that's a great way to go and it's gonna be a thing where you train you eat well you look great you feel great you train you eat you look great you feel great it's just an inner loop yeah according to you that's the minority though because i find it's i feel like i feel like that's why i'm biased because maybe that we the people we train and we see that that tends to be the majority of people which one that are the bad ones yeah they obsess compare they move the goalposts that you know it turns into i they get they get the abs and they're still not happy and they want to keep going i find that that's more common than not where do you fall mike in that and where have you fallen would you say uh you're on the bad side the good side it can go back and forth i know you i've been on both yeah yeah yeah what does that look like for you in both because i'd love because i think that'll help people to hear for someone like you what it felt like to be on the one side versus the other so well he just described one side where he says like i'm i'm happy with my body sure i could lose a few pounds but i'm patient yeah losing a few pounds doesn't work by the way so for my body it's like i've ever i have a very particular problem with my body which is i have like a genetic laxity in my abdominal wall and so it doesn't matter what body fat percent is i have like a trucker gut no matter what and there's pictures of me on the internet videos of me sucking it in pushing it out clean six-pack i can do a vacuum and then it's just like trucker gut and so that fat loss doesn't work nothing works like it has to be reconstructive surgery and i'm not so ready for that yet like that that's a huge procedure i'm good and so i just have to kind of make peace with the shit i don't love it but it's there so i can deal with it and there's lots of other cool shit i have going on my body but i'm not so ready for that i get pissed about my gut i just look at my leg veins and i'm like nah all is well so so there's that um the comparison game i have lots to say about how that has gone south for me and back north for me respectively through various cycles because it's especially like in comment sections and react videos the comparison game is really toxic oh yeah because most of the people in a comment section that will compare you to other physiques um they're not like uh putting the best forward they're not being gentle they're not being kind they're not being they're not acting in good faith and they're also typically like anonymous incel trolls and who look like i don't want to know because it's probably really bad and they'll be like you still look like shit compared to best bodybuilder of all time or whatever and if you really let that shit sink in i mean it's really toxic and you don't even have to have any comments or anything you know i i follow lots of bodybuilders on instagram because i have to masturbate and i need other than that uh to respect their journey or something i don't know what do people say in this case but i'm serious like a serious note i followed a lot of people who have come up from like local to national to pro because the journey's awesome and i love it like i'm like i like watch people's lifestyles like some guy i'll never meet he's like did you know arms today and then out with my girlfriend later and eating a cheeseburger and i'm like oh man that's just great i love swiping things it's like super super wholesome and you can either take that in as like man this guy's having a great time and i'm inspired to go do it or i'm like oh my god i'm like oh my god i'm my own version of this or you can be like why does his chest look like super squared off and mine looks all weird and so if you have instagram and you look through pictures all the time and you don't in many cases and to your point about a lot of people have this i think social media makes the shit way worse if you don't carefully curate both your feed and how you react i was gonna ask you because it was you didn't this wasn't that this was a while ago but you made a comment about mike yeah sure about his training and you yeah you made a comment like i look better i don't remember what it was you said i didn't say i look better than mike menser people literally hallucinated it was something like that i'm not that dumb okay like mike menser is one of the best looking people of all time yeah and i look like a jewish troll with muscles but but i'll lean into this shit i am stronger than mike there were some great leg veins though yes and i have more physical muscle size okay so i'm bigger and stronger than mike menser and it's just true and that's to prove a point because no one reveres lee haney who dominated mike menser's entire era yeah why it wasn't it was because lee haney trained actually really scientifically really controlled higher volumes higher reps no grunting no crazy shit really logical progression he didn't have that fucking energy mike menser had that shit he told you got trained really hard but for a short time yeah so people revere mike menser because of that the only reason i said what i said was self-deprecating nobody a few people got that joke why if i'm bigger and stronger than mike menser and i'm not that big and strong like i'm way below average like the ifbb pros are like freaks yeah why aren't you following them because bigger and stronger is really all you can get you can't model someone's aesthetics that's insane you go have mike menser's forearms hit it you'll never do it it's impossible it's just that's not how the body works and so the reason i said that was there's a reason people idolize mike menser and it's a vibe if you want to learn something logical for mike menser you can you'll have to do a lot of filtering because a lot of the shit is outdated but there's lots of grains of wisdom there it's vibes it's not because people will be like oh i want to be like mike menser because he was huge or because he was strong like that's a nonsense statement because why not just pick a random ifbb pro who's bigger and stronger than mike menser how do i know that because i'm bigger and stronger my pencil it's not a huge accomplishment this dude was around in like the fucking early 80s yeah ta-da so this will cause me a lot of trouble i was just gonna ask you because i remember when that happened i don't remember exactly what you said i'm stronger than his dorian gets on and dorian who's you know trains in that style yeah he says oh you look like crap whatever and then you got people were hammering you over that my question well i've never seen a single person hammering no you know these are online trolls that's what i mean that's what i mean by that how did you handle that because you're just social no problem okay yeah okay well like when you're hammering me but you have an anonymous account yeah yeah i don't give a shit well logically what you're saying makes sense but you know we've been in the space for a while and i know when i see negative comments i try not to let it bother me sometimes it does bother me a little bit it's it's it can be a huge bother and it's taken me a long time to contextualize comments okay because i so i think every human is a legit human being and we're all fucked and we're all troubled and we all say weird nasty shit sometimes me first and foremost and so when someone on an anonymous burner account says mean things to me my first temptation to be like this is like a real human giving me feedback i'm not gonna just discount it was all i have a valid opinion as i have but then i realized like actually there's a reason they have a burner account is because they're not willing to stand up in public and own themselves and it's probably because they look like shit or they can't like physically speak to another human being and be recognized for what they say it's like my nastiest idea in the morning like i wake up pissed and groggy i'm like fuck everyone if i was a troll i would just post that online underneath the first account i saw and so because the amount of intellectual input into that is teeny tiny and they don't really mean it i'm like fuck everyone i'm like fuck everyone i'm like fuck everyone it i'm like okay this is just throwaway content the number of people who are real humans in the world who've ever criticized me for my opinions is teeny tiny usually the critiques make a lot more sense and they're more cogent or they're just having a lot of feelings no big deal what dorian said right before you saw that clip was i think he was joking or something that effect is but if he wasn't joking then here's the deal and everybody of course i was fucking joking right like and also dorian was fed incorrect information somebody told him i said i looked better than mike menser but i never said that because i don't believe it at all and like does dorian have that opinion of me first of all dorian can have any opinion of me that he likes doesn't bother me in the fucking least second of all he can have a negative opinion of me in that context i know it's based on false premises really doesn't bother me but even if he did have that opinion like dorian is entitled to his opinion i'm entitled to mine no problem yeah yeah but he's a real human so it hits different again i'm just gonna push back because what you're saying is total sense makes a lot of logical sense you're a very smart guy but i also know that's true well you are but i also know you're into bodybuilding you talked about your physique you've critiqued yourself yeah and so getting people commenting on your because that's what happened was a lot of online comments on physiques comparing you to mike menser that didn't bother you at all a little bit no because they were picking pictures of me at my absolute worst on purpose so one of the most famous pictures of me commenting about mike menser is the one where i have like my gut hanging out surgery scars and shit and i haven't trained in six weeks i just got cut into pieces circulating that and like that versus menser like in his godlike prime well like i have plenty of pictures on my instagram of me like at 5 6 225 with veins everywhere jack to shit they didn't use those for some reason a good faith attempt they I got their boy they felt bad they had to get me back they had a lot of hurt feelings and so dope but like I don't have a problem with that either like fucking pour it on because later when I present a version of my physique like I recently did that was like fucking awesome looking compared to that for sure then everyone kind of shuts the fuck up for a second and you're like oh yeah Dr. Mike I guess he's pretty jacked and so because I know that IRL I'm jacked and at my best I love how I look the me like when I put those pictures up of me looking like shit they didn't leak I put them up willingly I own every part of how my body looks across the entire development of it all of the seasons all of the not training I'm not trying to put myself up on a pedestal but here I go a lot of people on socials don't do that they'll just give you the best version of themselves and so what I have to like quote-unquote suffer through it's not suffering at all you harsh is people are like oh my god this guy looks like shit and my favorite influencer looks like this but like but how do you know how your favorite influencer looks when he's like off of trend and crying himself to sleep every night and hasn't trained in four weeks like well they're not gonna post that on the internet some people do and they're fucking ballers for doing it but I'm also not saying people should post that stuff yeah a lot when I post my regular whatever bullshit awful angle physique on the internet I'm not saying like oh I'm a good person or I'm like super truthful or whatever this is kind of crazy shit I do all the time and I'm totally good with taking all the criticism no problem all right cool since we're in the controversy train I know recently there was a relatively there's a lot of controversy around something that had to do with how you got your your accolades through education could you like to talk about that a little bit sure I didn't dive deep in that but I saw like a whole bunch of stuff around I'm like what is everybody going after your thesis or was it around the schooling what was it around so it's around the dissertation okay so there was a thing that I did by accident where I had when I was making my final so there's a dissertation you defend to your committee and I did a dissertation on the dissertation and I did a dissertation I did a dissertation on the dissertation and I did a dissertation on the dissertation okay and they review it and external people review it and they say no or yes and then there is the final version that you submit to the graduate school that they publish on your behalf okay when I was cleaning up the dissertation that I had submitted I mistransposed a series of tables and that means the results look completely nonsensically wacky got it and so I have all of the old data and stuff which has since been published to the internet to relieve people of their frustrations and I've been doing a lot of research on that and I've been doing a lot of and also the phd had like like um so microsoft word detects typos but there was one like instead of science i wrote the word sense but when i scanned it he just doesn't have a red line and your brain interpolates like that's what i meant you know what i mean like the and there sometimes just miss it in editing just like a crap load of shit like that and so one gentleman who makes probably a pretty good living off critiquing me at length that's by far 20x his most popular videos which is listen listen fucking god bless him like i made fun of fucking celebrity trainers for years it's all good he made this whole video and he did it in was that how it started was it from him it's exactly how it started and really that's really the only thing that happened and then so my initial response was like fuck him he's a troll both of those are true i believe both of those and i'm just gonna like minimally attend to this and one of my friends was like dude the way this looks i think it's your rough draft and i was like that sounds good to me and i was like it's my rough draft and then later like hours later i was like i checked again i was like oh fuck that's not true and so my lack of giving a shit which is precisely what made me not super fine-tuned edit my dissertation to begin with and also was why i responded to it lackadaisically is what ended up causing this controversy then people were like oh this is a huge conspiracy theory came up and these are just like insane people who have nothing better to do what are they there's the term for them the unemployed or whatever on the internet and so that's what they call themselves like and some of these are like really awesome people that just like give a shit about the truth and some are just super super bad blood uh nefarious actors and uh so that's how it happened and then at the end i was like oh actually this is what happened and by then they were like oh you're a fucking liar you're fake it's a fraud and the whole bullshit what what what would the point be they're making them there's no actual cogent point that they're making yeah let's say what's so like like let's say it was true but what's the point so your phd's fake so like if i had to fake my statistics i would fake them to look cogent not nonsensical right uh and so it wasn't beneficial i mean it's just like it's one of those like dot dot dot profit scenarios we're like we're gonna do this and then i mean that's why i didn't even go that i saw i briefly saw it didn't go that's why i didn't understand yeah what would be it's also a document from like 13 years ago so the person that did this has a huge he's like a lot of butthurt yeah and no nothing i've never met the guy no doubt he's gonna make this is great content for him he's gonna clip this out he's gonna pretend like he's the victim that he was looking for truth and he's gonna be like oh look how evil mike is the whole thing yeah enjoy the content i have a great it's gonna make money i personally have a big problem with people who build who build uh their their business based off of taking other people down and i get that some people are gonna argue there's a value in that we need them to call people out or whatever i don't know i've met a few of these people and uh they seem to be very unhappy um they just want to hurt others and they want to build a business while doing so sure um and i just have a big problem with that kind of stuff so i get the i don't because i think you get what's coming when you do that they do tend to get it back it's you you put yourself you put you put yourself out there as that person yeah you tend to be what i think so like taking down quote unquote or ecotask people that are saying incorrect things that are saying things to the mass audience of fitness people for example that just leads them astray like oh you can just drink avocado oil and you'll be lean if you buy my 199.99 program sure that kind of toxic shit needs to be called out for the pursuit of truth right the problem is when you start being like hey i heard mike's dissertation was like the final published copy was like had some fucking errors in it that's a and he's a bullshit artist and he's lying to us and all of his evidence-based fitness takes are also wrong which a bunch of people started piling up on yeah and it's like i get it hate away fuck me i'm annoying i don't look nearly as good as you would think i would talk and all this shit i'm not from i didn't go to stanford some elite institution i've got it all coming right but there's a very big distance between me and like dr oz who's actual liar bullshit artist and when you talk enough shit about people like myself like lane norton gets a lot of shit yeah talk a lot of shit about evidence-based people that are flawed human beings trying to do good and mostly disseminate great information you start to like have these things converge and that's not good for anyone it's like i don't want to get super political but when you when you say shit is fake news right um there is a lot of malfeasance in the news media and they're just like straight up lying half the time yeah but when you call everything fake news and you don't dissect between this is really good stuff and this is actually fake bullshit you lose the plot entirely and then you want totally and so all of a sudden like there's a bunch of people on a bunch there's a few people on the internet with big accounts that are like evidence-based training is bullshit like no you fucking asshole you just want to sell your fake fucking supplements and make money and you want to paint everyone as evil because you're actually evil and now if everyone's evil no big deal it's like saying ever you were on the island you were on the fucking island i saw you on epstein's island and then i was on the shit but like but you won't hear that from me and then you accuse everyone of doing bad stuff it brings everyone down to your level there's a crap load that's probably not great well i think i think it's healthy for us to debate information and the science and i think that's a good thing i think to come after someone's character you better fucking know and to go after people on the internet's character without ever have met that person or learned enough about them that you you roll the dice and i think those people get what's coming so if you build a brand or you build yourself through going after someone's stressful business imagine that's your business that's all you do is just i just i mean i and i've learned the hard way we've been doing this for a long time now uh and you know i've been wrong more about people uh than i've been right many times i've judged somebody before they sat in this room why are you pointing at me bro before they sat in this room and then i get to know them and actually really understand their character and hear them in long form not a one minute clip on instagram and hear them articulate their points and and and and then all of a sudden no idea and then there's people who i liked on the internet because all they are are one bit and then they get in this room and i can't fucking stand them and they're full of shit and they're a character and so two things i gotta say about that number one is when there's a real big problem with like i don't know there's a term for this like um short slash reels culture there are oodles of people whose only impression of two things humans and their ideas is from 30 to 90 second clips i have a lot of people in my dms who fucking hate me and i sometimes will dm them back they're like you're a coward you're this you're that you're they use a k word for the jewish peoples which i love i use myself but not on this podcast right right no we don't want the banks to know you let that one of one one of us he's the bad i'm allowed to do it so like they'll hit me up and be like i can't believe you think this and i was like hey here's the whole video from which this was taken and they'll watch that segment two minutes before two minutes after they're like hey man i'm really sorry yeah because it's like some of these clips are intentionally designed to paint a picture where i literally soak a bunch of the controversial shit i've said literally before i say it i'm like now the following is a joke and go and that's like that's troublesome because you get these little snapshots about people and to your point you meet them later you're like oh oh it's not a bad person at all the other thing is i've had to go the other way bro yeah where i meet people and they're fucking cool and then later i realize they're not cool at all and i'm like oh my god dude like i don't know about you guys do Do you guys have a good, do you feel like you're a good judge of character? Because I'm awful. You know, I would say we're all. In person we are. Yeah, we're pretty good. Justin's discernment is like, this guy right here sniffs it out. You sniff it out. Oh, yeah. He's always been right. Dude, can I get some of that shit? I'm like useless out here. Someone could be like, I'm a great person. I'm like, okay. And my friend's like, dude, that guy's a serial killer. I'm like, maybe he's good at that. I don't know. It always starts with a handshake with me. So these guys know. If you have an awkward handshake with Justin, then we know he's fine. Oh, yeah. You're fucked. You're an evil person. No, but I just know that I've been, you know, this is before this. I train people in real life. And so, you know, we build this big internet business. And, you know, I got caught up in listening to others' opinions about people. Yeah, man. And takes on social media. And then I meet them and I'm like, oh, that person is nothing like that. And or getting excited about someone who I think is awesome because they portray this image online. And then they get in here and it's like, I can't stand this person. A lot of times when people are talking about other people. Other people online, you, as like a viewer, sort of give them the benefit of the doubt subconsciously that like they know things about that person. They have some kind of insight. Sure. And then at some point you might realize like, whoa, they have no idea. They know as much about this person as I do. They've seen like Reddit posts or something. Yeah. And it's like, why do I consider this person an authority on anything at all? They're just like, like live streaming their nonsense to the world. To the point of like the toxicity of like making that kind of content. We were doing a lot of celebrity critiques. We never. We never critiqued people's bodies. We never said this person looks like shit or this person doesn't. We don't fucking do that on the channel. But we were like, hey, scientifically speaking, this is nonsense. You shouldn't be doing this because we gave a fuck and give a fuck about real humans looking at celebrities and be like, it's like you guys get this all the time. Like, how do I look like this guy? And you're like, well, he did this. He did the slide. Bosu bullshit. You're like, it's called Anivar. That's what he really did. Here's a real training that will actually get you in the best shape. So we're like rebelling against that. So that's why all that negative content. At the same time, I got real goddamn tired of doing it. Scott, the video guy, got tired of filming it. And we chose like probably a year and a half, two years ago, just like positivity. We're just going to go in that realm because it's unfortunately less viewership. Like we still get a shitload of views. It's fine. But like people like love negative takes. And I'm just like, I can't fucking do this shit anymore. You'll get less viewership, but you'll get more consistency. You won't be flashing the pan. You'll build lots of views. You'll get value and loyalty through doing that. And better for business. And it is. It's a better business. You can collab with those people later. If you critique the fuck out of them unfairly, they're going to collab with you. And you last. You last. I mean, there's so many flashes in the pan in new media. But they disappear because they do this kind of negative crap take. 100%. I remember during COVID. COVID was such a negative, scary time. Oh, my God. We had a meeting. We're literally like, we are going to only do positive stuff on the show. Not a person meeting, though, I assume. Say what? Stop the spread. Not a person meeting. Oh, we broke all the rules. Zoom. With the mask. Oh, no. We broke all the rules. But we made a conscious effort. We're going to go positive because that's what people need now. And it served us very, very well. But at the time, everything was negative and scary and all that stuff. I want to ask you about, off air, I asked you what you were doing while you were down here. And you said you were on tech podcasts. What were you doing on tech podcasts? Because you have controversial AI opinions? Controversial AI opinions. I've got all kinds of them. You're a fitness guy. What are you doing on these tech podcasts? What's going on? They're like, hey, let me see your muscles. And I'm like. Why can't I get out of these handcuffs? And what's that weird cream? And then I wake up. It's a lot of money. But I feel wronged and very sore. Wow. But they're tech people. They're not like monsters. Yeah. Cool. And that's it. Okay. And that's been Mike. Thanks. Interesting. So I think. Let me try to like. I'll give you kind of the seed from which all these crazy views come up. I think that intelligence is. Straight independent, which means that a dolphin can be intelligent, even though it doesn't look like us. A dog can be intelligent. Some people look like dogs. Don't I look like somebody's pit bull? Like, yo, his name is Oscar. We got him from the pound yesterday. Look at him. And it's just a picture of me. It's the muscly head. He's not very hairy. It's the muscly head, dude. Yeah, it sure is. And then humans can have intelligence, but I think like silicon can also have intelligence. Machines can have intelligence and intelligence, I think can be measured in a variety of different qualities. But they all kind of converge into the same general ability and that like humans are currently the most intelligent animals on Earth. But within somewhere between now, depending on how you measure it and the next three years, we will no longer be and machines will be smarter than us. Like you could ask yourself the question like Claude, Claude's most recent model, Claude Fable, like what is what do you know that it doesn't know what test on its school can you take that it'll fail and you'll do great at like nothing. That's just I don't know. That ship has sailed. And so there's. There's nuanced ways in which we're still smarter than I, but I think those are coming to an end real goddamn soon. And then so the thing about human intelligence is like with better nutrition, better education, human intelligence over the centuries goes up slowly, but it does. I is working on a crazy exponential and so like the kind of intelligence we're going to see in the early 2030s is going to be probably hundreds of times smarter than the smartest human. And the implication. Of that. Are insane and I happen to think in almost all amazing ways with some really nasty downsides, but the many people that reason about AI and accept the premises that intelligence is going down near vertical at this point, they have like a really terminator to stepping on skulls with gatling laser gun, which is a dope vibe they have that view of it and so they really don't like me going on podcasts and getting all psychophantic about AI because they think it's kind of evil and I think it's kind of like almost an unmitigated good. Yeah. So you you're overwhelmingly positive with this emerging potentially emerging artificial general intelligence that's just so far and above now is that because you you see a utopia where no one has to work and all these things lazy motherfucker I mean that's what we were the first shit you can always go straight to the sex robot because I also have problems my man between you not working to me having sex with robots right right well that's going to be my job. So yeah, give me paint me the the overly optimistic version of this is it's the opposite of Terminator you so what does that look like yeah we're stepping on cyber skulls not getting no more I think that in a matter of several years we're going to take cracks at big diseases and win so by the way like there are already drugs that can pretty much defeat obesity the fact that I can sit here today in 2026 and tell you that in 2021 would have been like you're an insane person like obesity is just. going to kill us all man because just keeps going like this obesity is now in decline and has been for several years isn't that crazy yeah first time entirely because of some maglite enters appetite that's right and so drugs to kibosh diabetes cures for cancer there are realistic possibilities now alternatives in labs today that are a universal cold vaccine think about that yeah you'll never get any kind of cold virus ever again if you take the shit ever like. Okay well how can we expand that even more so I think by late 2020s especially early 2030s humans getting sick with traditional like cough and cold diseases or like grandma's liver doesn't work so well anymore because she inherited some kind of shit that might be on its way out and potentially like drawing to a close the other cool and completely insane thing and I talk about this in the aesthetic revolution book that I just wrote it's out for sale on bookstores near you is that still a thing online don't go to books it's weird online yes. I'm. Is age reversal case there that they've gotten pretty good at age reversing animals and they're now partial reprogramming trials and humans that are active today in China in the US. And so it is actually a very tenable very in my view very highly probable idea that by the mid 2030s everyone who takes these magic special super drugs for aging reversal will start aging and reverse and so that by the late 2030s most people who want to will be a physiologic and. Anatomical 22 years old prime of life indefinitely. It's a real thing that is great yeah but like with whiter skin and even bigger and like an odd aversion to sunlight the whole thing but like you guys know Brian Johnson yeah yeah yeah vampire man yeah yeah he just came out with a. Yeah that sucks man that sucks some of the people on the internet are such can I say the c word on here yeah cunts yeah because like see like what do you mean see. It's a genetic disorder you asshole you're born with that shit you fucking moron you go it's old and anti-aging no you're nihilist retard shut up sorry who was that that said these things so like he's onto some real shit when he's like you know if you take care of your health really well in the next 10 years you might not really die on like a human time scale because once we do age reversal and point number three here is genetic engineering like we have like let's say you have a proclivity to gain muscle that's like whatever it's like your average jack dude. No big deal some people have better genetics than you some worse it's not seemingly super difficult for advanced day I to give you. a vector to change your dna such that you now have the genetics of like i don't know the average nigerian person you guys ever meet nigerian people and you're like why do you have striated glutes you don't even work out i don't know i've seen clips on instagram of these dudes and they're working out with like you know motor parts and stuff and they're slowly like amateur body guys are pro yeah exactly yeah what's going on so they're nigerian and so like that potential to upgrade yourself and to be sort of forever young the only thing that can kill you at that point is like i don't know an asteroid a bus or some shit like that there's a very very different world than in the world today where we're like except aging death and disease is just like normal things that's just going to have to happen so i'm of that opinion that that shit's on its way out and i think that's wonderful yeah i think solving chronic illness and disease will be a huge plus but i also uh and this is just because i'm looking at this that's granted we get access to that yeah and also uh i'm looking back at the last hundred years we've had dramatic improvements in our access to housing and clean water and food uh and we have uh made great huge leaps in eradicating certain diseases and issues um and anxiety and depression are higher in many cases and so it's like so that's the part of me that's like cool we're gonna get every everything we want is that really gonna make everybody happy probably not humans have like this thing called the hedonic treadmill right where like the faster you run on it and try to get more pleasure the lower it gives you pleasure and so you end up saying some something like that and i think that's a really cool thing to do and i think that's a really cool thing to do and i think that's a really cool thing there's nuance there where some things like i'm pretty sure like not having any disease ever again will make people substantially happier but i think by to your point a very small margin versus like people are going to be dancing in the streets like finally no disease i think that shit's going to be solved too because if you look at mental illness as a disease which i think a lot of people do yeah um i think it's going to be very tractable and possible through ai drug discovery to make we did talk about this the last time i was gone is to make uh you know drugs that make you happier and like let me just speak an analogy here compared to happiness hunger is at least as deep an ancestral human emotion like i don't know if jellyfish are happy or sad they get hungry like almost certainly right and so you would think there's no way that you could take a weekly injection that would modulate your happiness to whatever level you wanted with not so big side effects but terzapatide already does that with hunger and we look at it we're like yeah okay it does that hunger solved we don't really bat an eye yeah but doing that with anxiety depression is i think feasible and then so imagine 2033 that drug comes out and all of a sudden you're anxious you're depressed and it's for no good reason right because there's two reasons you can be anxious and depressed one is shit's fucked up in your life and you need to be fixing it like you're in a wrong relationship you're in the wrong situation you hate your job you got shit from your past you need to work on it and you need to fix it and you need to fix it and you need to work out you can take a drug that makes you chill anyway but you should probably be fixing that stuff too at least or just fixing that stuff but there's another way and if you guys have any jewish friends you've seen this shit play out you're just fucking broken and everything in your life is awesome and you're fucking miserable like oh but life could get worse again you're like it's amazing oh that's what scares me hi you're like okay cool so you're just going to be like that forever got it if you give them the terzepatide of anxiety depression just dose dependently however much they take they could just be a person who acts like they have amazing genetics for happiness i had an ex-girlfriend once she had the greatest genetics for happiness i'd ever seen in a human being her existence blew me away she would wake up like this and she was wonderful 24 7 and when bad things happened to her she was like oh all right i'm gonna pick up the pieces and i was like oh my god can we clone you what the fuck is this and she was like oh my god i'm gonna pick up the pieces and she was like oh my god i'm gonna pick up the pieces and she was like oh my god i'm gonna fuck is going on um that's possible some humans are already like that and with proper medication in the future you can just make pretty much everyone not anxious not depressed let's let's let's talk a little more about the gl piece because um i think from listening the way you're communicating it uh you shared a strong opinion that i had when we first started talking about them and experimented with them ran ran groups through them uh and then i've slowly changed my opinion on it and that's why i'm here today to talk to you about the gl piece because i think my opinion early was that this is for sure going to be a net positive with how bad is obesity is now i knew there would be people that would abuse it there'd be people that don't need it that are going to take it i knew all that stuff would happen but i still thought with the amount of obesity that we have it's for sure going to be a net positive now what i've seen in the last few years is uh a lot more negative than i thought would be positive and what i mean by that is a lot of people that are using it to slant that are using it to eat nothing and they're losing a tremendous amount of muscle oh yeah uh and they're just they're trading uh instead of obesity uh now osteoporosis is coming and so have we really seen this play out long enough to know if it's going to be a net positive do you feel still strongly it's a net positive because i kind of i'm teetering the other direction i think we're walking into a frailty epidemic is what we're going to see on the other end and walking not so impressively either yeah stuttering into it uh so i think my view on this is that it's a net positive yeah both a shitload of bad use cases and bad results mostly because people don't do the very core basics you're supposed to be doing that's right um so there are lots of influencers who are doing a great job many of the medical doctors talking about okay so you want to think about glps here's what you need to do you need to eat healthy meals with high protein and lower fat because otherwise it's going to nuke your gut and you're going to be vomiting blood you're going to need to do resistance training because it's going to keep the muscle on your body and you're going to have a good meal schedule and get plenty of sleep and then you're going to adjust your dose based on the dose you need not on mystical magical fuck it two grams of triseptide and then you're shitting blood or whatever it's going on if you make the dose adjustments the nutrition adjustments and the weight training adjustments an overwhelming fraction of people have a fucking unbelievable time on these drugs here's the problem though who goes to find influencers talking about how to take these things properly some people most people are like oh oh there's like a shot i can take yeah cool and you're like but the side effects and they've already like closed the door it's a preloaded pen that has no adjustment either that's right do you know why there's a preloaded pen now with no adjustment this is fucking terrifying such an enormous fraction of people who take prescription drugs are functionally innumerate they can't do mental math reliably and so if you're like hey for this dose twist the bar they're like oh i don't know that is that the reason for safety that's exactly the reason that's exactly the reason the pharmaceutical company's like what's the average dose people need boom put it in boom wow because like because they used to have the turndale ones it's like a solved problem it's a very simple technology and like i remember when the pens a lot of them stop being the turndale ones and start being the regular ones and that's because like you you talk to real doctors off the record and you're like how do you feel about your patients using xyz they're like dude a lot of my patients are smart as fuck and they're they're great but some small but look a third of is a small fraction but also a very large fraction in some sense a third of your patients are like i don't just don't do numbers you gotta be like oh my god and then all this nasty shit happens and it's not that people are necessarily innumerate they're like not like cognitively with it enough that's a small problem you can just reason through that you can take chachi bt can take a picture of the shit just tell me what to do this is something i keep coming back to a lot i think get rid of it get rid of it get rid of it get rid of it get rid of a shit factor we don't have a fucking pill for that fellas at all and so like i have many people i consider very close friends who just yolo shit like i have one friend specifically who will go nameless he's the fucking man unreal successful in business look a fucking trillionaire but like his interest in putting in diligence into his physique is zero but he wants a good physique so he's like is there any pill or potion or powder i can take to just do this and i'm like no we're he's on like growth test a bunch of other fucking drugs i haven't even heard of and he barely trains and he eats like total shit what's the solution for him magic miracle ai medicines for sure anything short of that he's gonna be exactly that guy be like yeah man dude people comment they're like i took your appetite it ruined my gut i'm like how much did you take like max dose like my dog how did you eat on it they're like fucking ate whatever like my man pizza plus two and a it's gonna shoot you to the moon and not in a fun way it's crazy how many i share this with guys because i've got a lot of people around me that are family and friends that i've seen that i take it um how um disconnected they are to their own body signals and they have been for forever and because you'll take this stuff and it will definitely let you know if you eat shit food and this is why it's so effective is because if you eat healthy good square balanced meals you feel good great and and and it and it you're you can digest it but you go out of bounds and you eat some crap and oh my god you were messed up oh yeah but it's wild to see that destroy people and then be in the and then still keep doing it and it's like that's not even a loud enough signal for them to correct course there's a run story i like to share as many podcasts as possible because they're really like man it really hits one of my um uh industry colleagues dr spencer rodolsky he's a industry he's a board certified obesity specialist i don't know who i know yeah and he's like jack and lean mr captain america whatever he had a patient at one point he told me about him super anonymized and she was on multiple anti-obesity drugs like many of these and he's like physiologically she cannot feel hunger it's not a thing and she was like not losing weight and he was like hey what's going on we're eating blah blah what did you eat today and she's like why did this this that is also far so good and then she's like uh and then like had like a Hershey's candy bar and he was doing his mind melding shit where he's like, glycemic index, the sugars, the dose, blah, blah, blah. He's asking her and he's like, did you, were you hungry? Right. Were you hungry? Were you crazy? Was it like an emotional thing? And she goes, no. And he's like, so what was it? She's like, I just felt like having a chocolate bar. Fellas, what do you do about that? I got all kinds of ideas about shit. I have nothing. I have nothing on that. How do you help that person? It's just felt like having a fucking shit. It's like your, your people you're talking about. They're like, we'll gut bomb themselves. You're like, okay, I had five bags of Doritos and two slices of pizza. It fucked me up. Two days later, Doritos look good. Let's go. And you're like, you're watching them do this. And you're like, I don't, I can't help you anymore. Well, it's tough if you, if you approach it through a scientific lens, right? Cause it's not a scientific answer. Human behavior. Yeah. Human behavior. This is more psychological. And this brings us full circle back to the whole vanity thing too, because I feel like most people don't have that good of a relationship that you explain. That you have where you can say like, oh, I'll do this little thing. Uh, and that's it. And I want to look better and I'm okay with that. And I'm also okay with my flaws with that. And also not compare myself to Rose. I think most people haven't got to that place in that relationship. And so even though science could take them to a liposuction and fixing it, it will never, it will never fulfill them. Uh, I feel the same way with the GLPs and it's a, it's not an answer that science can give us. This is more a psychological thing. Elimination of work. Yeah. I think a lot of what you're describing is like these external factors that we can go find in like solutions with, we're trying to eliminate work all over the place. This is my concern with AI in general. I have a different perspective of that mainly for that fact alone, if we're going to solve all these problems and everything's going to get so much easier, is it really going to get easier? Are we going to actually learn how to be happy with ourselves? Is that going to be something that, you know, people will be able to find purpose and be able to, you know, is this going to be good for humanity overall? If, you know, we've eliminated work and, and struggle as, as far as this is a great concern, as far as humans are currently designed by evolution, fuck no, that'll land real poorly. When you take people, when you take meaningful struggle from people and you take the necessity of meaningful struggle from people, they're usually just left floating into like drug addiction and dumb ass, hobbies like gambling and shit like that. It's a huge problem. I think there's sort of two sources of hope. One is you just change people's DNA or give them drugs that make them have meaning and purpose anyway, and they don't need to be working. They just want to do it anyway. A lot of people are like that to begin with, not everybody. Sounds like mushrooms. My man, not microdose either, megadose. The other thing is, I think as AI does more and more of our shit for us, the jobs and tasks that humans have to do get pushed to stuff we're not currently doing. That's because we're busy doing shit that has to get done. So like if you run a city's trash collection, a business or whatever, municipality, like that situation, waste management, you run waste management and you have to do it because if you don't do it, then just go waste is going to accumulate. We're back in the medieval times. Nobody wants that shit. And you're looking at all these homeless people in SF and you're like, I had to do waste management. I can't help these people. And you're right. And everyone else has a job and they're just people just doing God knows rotting in the street. AI and robots start to do the waste management and they do software and they do a bunch of stuff. So you're like a lot of humans are freed up to like do shit. We're like, how many problems do we still have left in the world in which we need like a lot of hands on deck? I don't know, fellas, you want to start counting them out? People living in unsafe homes with abusive people, children who have no mentors, homeless people rotting in the fucking street. We do nothing about it. Nothing. There's a millionaires in San Francisco walking by and looking at people like they're just fucking in the street. But I got to go to my tech job. I got tech job to do. Well, when Claude takes that tech job, motherfucker, maybe you'll turn around and help that homeless person. And we'll have a shitload of money and value coming from AI. So we'll have plenty of money to like pay for everyone. We already have plenty of money to pay for everyone, but it's no one's really big concern. What about like the living conditions of the third world? You guys ever been outside of the United States? Motherfuckers are not doing as well as we are, man. Those are real human beings. We're cleaning up the environment. Not really anyone's doing that because we're already doing our own bullshit. Problem with that theory is the waste management guy didn't sign up to do waste management because he cares about trash on earth. He signed up because it's what he was educated enough to do. Pay the bills. Pays the bills. And so when he no longer has to do that, you're hoping that he has the characteristics of the person that probably- Not even. He doesn't have to because he gets a job with the government doing waste management because they're like, hey, you want a government job? He's like, yeah, like you're going to be a garbage truck driver or whatever the guy that does the systems and engineering and be like, sweet. Okay, cool. Now the government has like, okay, like we need to help the homeless. So that guy shows up to go get a job because he doesn't have a job anymore doing the waste management thing because robots suck that fucking job. And then he's like, hey, I still need work. And we're like, great. You can go help these homeless people. He doesn't have to give enough. He doesn't have to give any of a shit about homeless people as much as he cares about garbage. But he shows up. He's a diligent human. He gives them food. He gives them shelter. He makes sure they don't attack each other. And he's got a job. Yeah. I'm yet to see the government care. I think it's up to people to care. The government will pretend to care and will shower You think this whole hierarchy we're in right now, you think that's all going to change? What's the hierarchy? Let's get to the lizard. Yeah. No, just the power structure and the dynamic and however these distributed. Yeah. What's the power structure? What's that? You tell me. Well, you, well, you just, you just mentioned a millionaire who doesn't want to take care of them. I think what you're pointing to is human nature, uh, which is very broken. And I don't think that changes when we have more stuff. I think it changes when we have more stuff you do because the society used to be way more brutal. We used to let children just starve on the streets back in the fucking 1700s, man. People would just pass that. We don't do that anymore. When there's children on the streets, now people really give a shit. Yeah. But that, that wasn't human. That was less. And I agree with same human nature. Yes. But here's a difference. So markets did that largely markets, uh, more free markets, um, lifted more people out of poverty in the 20th century than we did in previous forever of humanity. Uh, but markets, uh, give you what you want. And in order to get what you want, you have to give somebody else what they want. Yeah. So it wasn't a bunch of altruism. It was, uh, harnessing human nature, which is broken, uh, in a way that is better than the way it was, uh, before. Uh, so I think a lot of these issues will get solved, but I don't think human nature will, will get, will, will get better. I think human nature is human nature. And the only way to solve it, if you look at the data has a lot less to do with prosperity and a lot more to do with, uh, a purpose, a person's, uh, purpose and their belief in the transcendent as what the data would show. I think that a lot, so I'm not trying to change human nature. Eventually human nature will change drastically when we start modifying our own DNA and futzing with our brains and shit. I think that's the late 2030s, early 20, 40s. What about the people that don't want to do that? Aren't you worried? Nope. Not worried at all. They can just not do that. The mole people. Yeah. They're already around. I was trying to get zoning for my, uh, fucking gym to get dug under. And they're like, mole people live here. And I'm like, they vote and everything. The mole lobby is nuts. Yeah. So, uh, does he mean Jews? Uh, it's a joke. Oh my God. All right. I am allowed to say it. Come on. I can go too far. Watch. We'll leave history out of this. My fear with this is like, I'm just a picture of society where people are like, man, we're making everything perfect. And, and we've done the DNA changes and we've got the happy drugs and we're doing great and we're smart and we're productive and we're happy. And you people over there who don't want to do these things, just pointing out, I wanted to say whatever people who don't want to change, who don't want the DNA changes, you're taking everybody down. You're not productive. You're not helping anybody. We need to force you. We need to force you because it's better for everybody. That's what worries me. Yeah. So that's the force. That's a huge concern because it's a lot of times a value judgment where you're like, we just don't like that. You people are dirty over there. We just don't want to see dirty people. So we're going to genetically engineer you to like, take care of yourselves to our standard. That's fucked. Yeah. Um, however, if those people are like the government gives them a living at your expense and you're massively productive and peaceful because you got upgraded, but they're like, I don't want to get upgraded. You're like, well, motherfucker, are you living on my dime? So how about this? You either jump off of welfare and try it your own way or upgrades. The other thing is this, like, did you get into the, did you just made this terrible Apple TV series? This, the show, uh, I'm not that rich. I can't start with a P. Um, yes. Did you get into that? My friends have, you're describing that by the way, everybody's race. Okay. So, so here's the thing. I think that preserving the core of Liberty is base level, super important. Yeah. So like, I don't fuck with Liberty ever. I'm like a, like an insane libertarian and like nine out of 10 cases. Okay. So I felt that from you originally, cause you just said some stuff. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But, but I think this is so libertarianism is working. - It works best when people have capability and agency. Like they're good at shit. Like you have a society of mental 18 plus year olds, libertarianism is fucking dope. You have a society of mental 10 year olds, you ever leave 10 year olds by themselves? - Yeah, I know, you're going eugenics right now, bro. - Chaos. - You know you're going there, right? - Every 10 year old, make them into food, F these islands. You said eugenics, I wanted to take you up on it. So, by the way, there's a big difference between negative eugenics and positive eugenics. Negative eugenics is when Nazis kill people for no goddamn good reason, mostly because they're jealous of their capability, I did say that. And positive eugenics is when you're just like, hey, good DNA is really good, and if you're super happy and productive and peaceful, it's great that you're having a bunch of kids. And if you're insane, criminally prone, and fucking evil, and you have like 10 kids, it's kind of like, I don't know, man, some of those kids are gonna be great, just by variation. Some of them are gonna be real shit. It's like a real thing in the real world. We can pretend it's not happening. So here's the thing, eugenics aside, if you have people that are, so let me paint a quick picture for you. So standard, so normal distribution, right, bell curve. Most people are in the middle, some people are on the edges. If you take the issue of homelessness, and you go, okay, as libertarians, super skeeved out for me to give my money, my fucking hard-earned money to the government, so they can, that lazy asshole can get food and shelter and all that other shit, I don't like that one bit. However, you get the normal distribution, and you get the normal distribution of IQ, intelligence, just raw intelligence. It is like, not really debated in the field of psychometrics, which is intelligence measurement, that below an IQ of 70, it's hard to make sense of the physical world dependably enough to operate your body and do a good job, even in the fast food industry. Like in the simplest jobs to you seem massively complex. If you know what that feels like, go try to get a job at CERN, the European Particle Collider, and they're like, this is super basic theoretical physics job, and you're looking at these labels, fuck. These aren't numbers or letters. Okay, you're just too dumb, get the fuck out of here. And so if the average job is like that, okay, fine. Maybe you can help family, friends, support, et cetera. Now you overlap another distribution on top of that. So let's say the bottom 10% of people, okay, that's 30 million Americans, right? They're like not sufficiently intelligent enough to have the highest probability to be like a force of good for their own. Like they maybe will become homeless, but probably not. How many of those people, of that 30 million, are at the bottom 10% of psychological stability? Like they're not mentally well, right? Multiply that again by the number of people that have a massive proneness to addiction. You got somebody low intelligence, psychologically screwed, and huge addiction prone. That's 300,000 people. That's roughly the number of chronically homeless people, last I checked, in the United States. It's not rocket science. Some people cannot take care of themselves. And we can do the leftist, crazy shit, where we're like, "If you just give them enough resources, "they'll blossom into Harvard grads. "Maybe their kids are some shit with genetic engineering." That's just not gonna fucking happen. And then you take the extreme right-wing approach, like you gotta pull themselves up by their bootstraps. They don't have boots. They don't have hands, analogically. Like that's not gonna happen. And so I think a humane society does 95, 97% core, market-driven value creation, libertarianism. Like fuck, yeah, gas it up. Every successful society, is like us. It's like that. People like to point to the Nordic countries and be like, they're due socialism. Like, oh, cool. What do they rank on the index of economic freedom, as measured? Like, oh, they're higher than us. Okay, so they're using capitalism to fuel a welfare state. Got it. Cheat code unlocked. So I think capitalism is just like the way to do shit. But I think some people are gonna fall through the cracks and you need proper, maybe private, maybe government programs to catch the few down there. Watching out for incentive drift and people taking advantage of the system, for sure. But still, some people can't fucking hang. I'm not trying to see homeless people on my way to work. I think it's brutal. I think it's obscene. I think like, why do I get to walk to work in my business suit, and this guy's fucking starving to death? I mean, okay, homeless people aren't starving to death in the United States. You guys get my drift. Why is he sleeping in the street? This is nuts. We as a society could do something to help that person in an intelligent way that's constrained. We already have the money for it. There's a big problem though. This is gonna get very political. People on the political ladder, the left, the extreme left, especially in California, especially just down the street from where you guys are located, they are unwilling to admit that some humans categorically are unable at this time in their lives to take care of themselves, and unwilling to take the state and tell them, hey, you can't be in the street anymore. You either go to jail or you go to this awesome shelter where we cook you up a whole life for yourself as long as you're hanging in there. They're like, well, we have to respect liberty. So sort of go libertarians, right? And libertarians are like, I don't know, man. Maybe if you're capable, we're just gonna stay out of this one. So the hard political left showers people with money that never gets to the people. It just gets eaten up in these programs. And then nothing good actually happens because they don't wanna admit the harsh reality that what people at that level need is conservatorship. Somebody, the government, whatever, has to come in and be like, we're gonna be in charge of your life for a while on the basics so that you don't go get lost in the street and get heroin needles in your fucking eye. 'Cause the last 10 times we gave you freedom, that's what you did. We don't wanna see that shit anymore on the street because we don't wanna see 'cause we care about you as a human. I think that's a really big deal. - Yeah, I almost thought you were going in the direction of sterilize them and don't let them reproduce. - What's wrong with you? - Yeah, see, I was like, where are you going? - You're like, okay, are we eating them as food? Or are we sterilizing them? But it's neither. - No, I think, no, no, no, I think there's a couple problems. I mean, one is we spent, how much did we spend in California on the homeless? - $140,000 per person per year. - And it didn't even get anywhere. - It just doesn't go anywhere. - We don't know where it went. - It's impacted more homeless people. - It's a huge way for them to launder money and pay their whatever, so that's number one. Number two, I do think that some people need to be hospitalized against their will because they're sick and insane. - Yes. - I agree. And it's a fact that markets have lifted more people out of poverty than anything else. Yeah, I know that where I was going earlier was just when I was hearing you talk about making people better with DNA, I'm like, there's gonna be people that don't wanna touch that. - I think that's totally cool. - And the people that do are gonna look at those people and say, you're bringing us down. And you guys are a cost to society, and you're not producing these crazy things like we are, and you're not beautiful, and you guys either live on that island over there, or we're gonna force you 'cause it's for your own good. You're not smart enough to know that this is not, this is for your own good. - So I think, now that I know you guys are more libertarian-pilled than I had initially assumed. - What made you think we weren't? - Yeah, it was your impression. - Just 'cause we're out where we're at? - Easy, easy. So it's super, super easy. Libertarians are like a percent of the US population, so just never assume anyone's libertarian. It usually does mean a lot of rightness. I used to, 'cause like a lot of my- - Adam's a minority, I never thought that. - I used to think that a lot of immigrants were libertarian, 'cause more or less many of my immigrant friends are very freedom-loving, 'cause we all came from the Soviet Union, and we're like, fuck that. But then I talked to immigrants in Ubers, and they're like, oh, socialism's great. And I was like, oh, fuck, get me out of here. - No, that changed, that changed. - It's my nightmare, it's awful. My family's very, very freedom-based, but they came one or two generations ago. - Yeah, man, yeah, and then they forget, 'cause freedom, you just take it for granted. So my perspective on this issue as a libertarian is like, so long as you're not doing one of two things, especially one, it's all good. You're not harming other people, okay? So like, if you wanna live physically in the street, I don't even have so much of a problem with that, as long as you're not stabbing me on my way to work. - Or vandalizing or hurting a business. - 100%, don't fuck with other people. If you're not screwing with other people, you look different, you're unwashed or whatever. Like, I couldn't care less. And I think that's a really good attitude to have at baseline of respecting people's difference. Like, a lot of people get up in arms about like, oh, Muslim women wear like the whatever it's called, right? I'm like, who gives a shit, dude? There's like episodes of "Star Wars" where they have really cool outfits on. I think that's dope. I think it's dope the same way. Like, as long as people aren't violently trying to do crazy shit to you or destroying, like, streets with litter or something, everything is dope. On the one hand. On the other hand, there is a compelling reason to think about this slightly differently with one exception, and that I don't hold this view. So personally, my views stop exactly where I described. If you're screwing up other people's stuff, and if you are draining the economy and not working, you need to rethink that shit. 'Cause that's a you problem. That's you causing other people problems. But if you're like, self-sufficient, and you're like, you just are absolutely, like, everyone's beautiful and gorgeous and six foot three, and you're like, you look like that, who cares? Like, we're not living in a world where, like, we want other people to be beautiful. That's fucking weird. Also, when other people are unattractive, you can feel better about yourself. Great, right? Just shut up and let people be. And I think most people vibe with that. Intelligence is a really interesting case. Because if we have, let's say, we found, like, an island of people, like, the whole world's upgraded. Everyone has an IQ of Elon plus. - Yeah. - Which means they're just, like, really making sense of their life, and a lot of problems are solved. 'Cause just intelligence just solves a shitload of problems. And then we find an island of people that are, like, regressive, like, just real dumb. Can't put two fucking sticks together. And they're, like, they're living in, like, ancestral times. Like, hunter-gatherer villages. There's people of gangrene. There's crazy crime. Just exactly the stuff you would think would happen in a low-intelligence society. Do we blow dart those people when they're asleep to give them the fucking vector that, like, they wake up the next day and things are, like, oddly make more sense. And then two months later, they're, like, "Oh my God, we can improve upon this like crazy. "Why did I ever get this idea? and then they're like IQ 190 or whatever? Or do we let them languish in despair? Like you find a bulldog out in the street and you're like, should I adopt this bulldog and give him all the shots? Or should I just let him eat from a fucking trash can and then die from a broken paw because he didn't run fast enough out of the way of the bus? Which one of those is bulldog? Oh, you gotta respect his liberty. Like, I guess, but if you asked him afterwards, if you MRI'd the bulldog, you're like, hey, do you wanna go back on Mission Street? He'd be like, no, no, hell no. I'm gonna stay on your couch for the rest of my life. I like it here. Thank you for rescuing me. The people who you blow dart the IQ increase pill to, and they very well say, like, actually, I wanna be smart. And here's the ultimate kicker here. This fucks with libertarians. This fucks with my brain. You can just give them a choice. You'd be like, hey, we blow darted you and now you're smarter. And they're like, yes, I can tell. Like, okay, we have another blow dart to take you the fuck back there. All the liberty conserved. They're like, how many people would choose that? That's my question. That presses on my libertarian soul. I don't want the government or any organization blow darting anyone for anything. You know, I, but man, that's compelling. I see the rationale you have with, because I've seen the data on intelligence. I'm not advocating that, by the way. No, I know. No, all joking aside, I've seen the data on intelligence and its correlation to happiness, productivity, you know, less disease and that kind of stuff and, you know, less likely to be incarcerated. But that graph is almost like a bell curve when it comes to mental illness. You start to see as intelligence goes higher and higher and higher, anxiety and depression. It's because I'm a drug user. Yeah, and drug use starts to go up. Use the example of Elon. Although Elon's the greatest entrepreneur of all time, extremely productive. I don't know if I'd really say he's happy. He actually says he's not happy. Yeah, and would I want to be him? I don't know. I think we got to be careful with- Can I spend his money? Then yes. Yeah. Well, we got to be careful if we make intelligence God and we start to worship intelligence because then people are gonna start doing these implants in their mind and- What's wrong with that? I want to figure everything out. I want a fucking implant? Yeah. I'm tired of being done. I think at some point, I think, you know, going from 70 IQ to 100, you know, positive, you know, I don't want to do that. Going from 100 to 200 to 300, I think people are not gonna- I think it's still positive, bro. Huh? So the data that you're citing- Yeah. Is an exception, not a rule, as far as I last looked at it. Okay. Most things just continue to get better unless you have like actual psychological illness. And then intelligence is a protective factor against it really ruining your life and it's just a giant nuisance. The Google association between intelligence and mental illness. I've seen some data on this and as your IQ goes up, you actually get higher rates of things like 'cause you overthink, like anxiety. Is the Googling happening currently? Huh? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I want to see what this- In advance, Google is a leftist lying machine. It's gonna lie to us about this. And if it says what I said, then I was right the whole time and I'm a fucking genius, but we're done. No, you're right. No, it says you're right. It's an old stereotype that suggests there's a link between madness and genius. Now, this is AI. But to your point, a lot of people who are really smart. Yeah. I mean, that's been my experience with this show. The higher intelligence people that we've had, seem tortured and you don't really know that. Again, till you get to know them, you sit down and you have long conversations and you realize like, man, these brilliant, but torture. So first of all, intelligence does not inoculate you against having a bad time. But secondly, here's a really fucked up thing. A lot of intelligent people can be introspective enough and communicative enough to tell you they're tortured. A lot of people with lower intelligence, they're tortured. You just won't hear about it. They don't have the words to express what's going on. And that's like really fucked up. I also- Well, who originally said ignorance is bliss? Some dumb asshole. That guy on the Matrix or somebody really wise. Somebody like a fucking one of those lizard people who wants to put the wool over your eyes. They would tell you ignorance is bliss, wouldn't they? Be like, don't worry about social world, man. Ignorance is bliss. Like, is it really? Shut up and stare at the static on your TV. Yeah. Do you think lizard people are real ones? Of course they're- What kind of ridiculous, of course they're real. Hey, what do you think about the aliens though? Who runs the economy? What do you think about all this UFO and aliens? Oh, that's a good question. Is it a distraction? Are they demons? Yes. Is it just our own? Is it just our own? Yes, yes, yes. Okay, all right. All right, so real talk? Yeah. I have no idea. Well, obviously. But I can speculate. Yeah, let's go speculate land, yeah. I didn't think you knew for sure, but for real, let's go. Mike, tell us the answer. Come on, you know this, bro. Yeah, I guess, probably. So typically I reserve claims of interaction with intelligent beings or like very special flying phenomena as like purview of the confused or the insane. Okay. One or the other, typically. But like, there are multiple very well decorated fighter pilots. Yeah, really, really. I think people maybe have a misperception of fighter pilots 'cause the only insight they had on their not culture, which is not actually like that, is that Tom Cruise film, "Top Gun," in which he's very sexy, and so is everyone else, but you don't learn a lot about who these people are. The people that like operate F-18s and F-35s. Super intelligent. They're fucking brilliant. And they're super athletes. And they're super athletes, and they're incredibly conscientious, and they're incredibly organized thinkers. Yep. They're systems thinkers. Yep. They're not like, "Oh, I think I saw a fucking floating oar, bro. "Yeah, fucking geez, man." And they play volleyball and Goose gets killed. You guys have seen the movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so. It sums it up. It sums it up. I think he has sex with a girl also, maybe. So real legit fighter pilots, like I've heard the podcasts where people ask them stuff, and they're fucking sharp. And now you have like multi-sensor confirmation. So you have a couple things going on with some of these incidents. The fighter pilot's like, "I see it. "His wingman," which is in one of these cases was a female, was like, "It's there. "I also see it. "Their electro-optical sensor detects it on the plane. "Sometimes it comes up on radar, too. "Sometimes it doesn't, right? "But we have shit that comes up on radar and doesn't. "And then the guys in the massive radar site "on the aircraft carrier are like, "Yeah, it's right there. "It's after that, man. "Oh, I don't know. "I can't just say those are all insane people." So it gets weird. And so like, is that necessarily an alien craft from like another dimension where they're gonna steal our, hunt women, et cetera? You guys ever played Duke Nukem, the video game? - Oh my God, that's old school. - That shit. Is it that? Is it something else? And at this point I'm like, 'cause usually I'm at like the 90th percentile of like, you guys are insane and you just saw swamp gas or whatever the fuck. Now I'm in like 50/50 and I just have straight up no idea. 'Cause like these things, there could be some kind of thing where everyone got it wrong. Shit happens. But it could also be like, nope, there was a legit flying orb that was doing completely non-relativistic physics. And we have no idea how it works. And it's like a real thing. It's also doesn't take a lot of speculation to think like, if we show up, like if you fly an F-35 fighter at 50,000 feet over like a chimpanzee preserve, they're not gonna see it. They won't hear it. They'll have no idea it's there. And if you fly it really low and then really high again, they're like, "Ah, what was that?" And so that's how a lot of people report this. Like this orb like shows up in front of a fighter jet at 40,000 miles an hour, hangs out for a while, flips upside down and then shoots off into space another 40,000 miles an hour. You're like, but there's no way. Like, well, aliens might have some cool tech that to us looks like the chimpanzee, the F-35. And so if you reason about it that way, yeah, like maybe, maybe. - Yeah, we are the chimps. - What do you guys think about it? - I don't think much about it except for why would they- - Except constantly. - Why is the government like now disclosing stuff? - Unexplained. - Well, that's just to be wrapped for the FBI file. - Yeah, there's something else going on. - That's the benefit to promoting it. - I definitely agree with that. Yeah. I think, how long was it? Do you know? - I don't remember. We looked this up. I had Doug Google this one time. How long it was that we didn't know about the stealth bomber? - Oh, not the stealth bomber, but the Blackbird. - The Blackbird. - The S-71. - Decades. - Decades. - Yeah, it was made in the 1970s. - Also the stealth bomber. - Right. - So, yeah. So, what we get to see and we know about in interviews and what we see on TV and what we like, we don't even know what technology we have. - For sure. I will say that what they're doing, what the technology that these fighter pilots describe as doing is outside of, for sure, our ability to do, even secret shit. - No, I've watched all this stuff on it and they claim that we can't even, like what it does when it goes under water and stuff like that, just we can't wrap our brains around. It doesn't make sense. - You know what was it? Like one fighter pilot described, he was like, it was hanging out outside of our atmosphere for a while and then it dipped down under water and then it came back up and hung out and then it interacted with the aircraft like it knew it was there. And then it shot off to nowhere, like literally like fractions of the speed of light kind of shit. And you're like, huh. Oh, well, I will say like people talk, like all the alien movies are like the aliens come in and they're just like a little bit more technologically advanced than us. And we have like a proper conventional battle with machine guns and eventually hand-to-hand combat. And like we somehow prevail 'cause the human spirit, there's no fucking way that's happening. - No, you smoke cigars. - No, exactly. Welcome to earth. Yeah, that's not gonna happen. They're gonna toast the show. - I mean, I also don't think, if it is, I also don't think there's danger 'cause I think if they're that far advanced past as they wanted to get rid of us and nuke us. - A hundred percent. - They could have done that. - We're not like a threat. Like they're here for resources. Like what? They didn't have like mega star systems where they were? Like, you know how small the earth is? We don't need fucking resources. - Yeah, yeah. They're doing those things that we can't explain the physics around. - A hundred percent. - Like they don't need anything from us. We're probably more a zoo than anything else. - Oh yeah. It's like Elon coming down. - And they're cruising by just to check out the chimps. - Yeah, exactly. They're just looking at chimps actually. So are we. Elon comes down off a skyscraper and like some like person who has like 5 cents in the coin purse is like, "Oh, he's here for my money." Like he's not, I promise you. - Yeah, definitely not. - Well, Mike, good time talking to you, bro. - This is a lot of fun, my friend. - It's an amazing time. I didn't know you guys were cool as fuck like this though I had suspected. And just so we're on record, lizard people, Illuminati, we're your friends. - What? - We're not. These guys said earlier, "What's the coverup?" Shut up. There is no coverup that we care about. Please continue to run the globe as you see fit. - Don't cancel us. - Yeah, me, don't cancel us. - I'm glad you made it down here, dude. We'll run it back for sure. - We'll have you back on. - I would love to. - Yeah, much better in person for sure. - Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health, health, and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Super Bundle includes MAPS Anabolic, MAPS Performance, and MAPS Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam, and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels, and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos, the RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam, and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30-day money-back guarantee, and you can get it now plus other valuable free resources at mindpumpmedia.com. If you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five-star rating and review on iTunes and by introducing MindPump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support. And until next time. Next time, this is Mind Pump.