Dr. Becky debunks timeout, tantrums, and gentle parenting

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I wear them all the time when we go on the pool with the boys. I'm excited to see which he picks out from Quince for me next. Your nice khaki shorts are from Quince. With the khaki that I wear like literally every day. Yep. Those are from Quince. You don't even know where your clothes are from but if you had to guess they're probably from Quince because I love shopping their min section as well for Matt. You can wear them in many different ways for many different seasons. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to Quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365 day returns now available in Canada and the UK too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know that unplanned sent you. It's the best way to support the show. I don't think getting first place a lot when you're young is a confidence builder. Those are the kids I'm worried about. Really? 100%. What do you do if your kids not listening to you? I think when we say my kid doesn't listen, we have to really reconsider. My kids just not doing the thing I want them to do. Today on unplanned, we sat down with Dr. Becky Kennedy, a clinical psychologist, mom of three, and New York Times best elling author of Good Inside. Agree or disagree. You should never bribe your kids to be a disagree. We prefer kicks off. Oh, but I call it incentivizing. Known as the millennial parenting whisper, she's become one of the most influential voices in raising kids. Is raising boys different than raising girls? If we disagree, are you front of the kids? Yeah. How do we effectively show them repair and demonstrate repair for them? We touch on tantrums, gentle parenting, and why Dr. Becky does not believe in timeout all on today's episode. I think there's been a lot of focus on feelings recently in parenting and let me just be clear. I love feelings. I think feelings are important. That was an important correction because I think a lot of, I'm going to say our generation, but like I'm definitely not in your generation. It's very generous to myself. But adults probably feel like no one cared about my feelings growing up. It was some version of stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. Go to your room. We don't care. And so I think that correction is really important. We care about our kids feelings and we should. But I think there's been this overcorrection where we've gone from caring about kids feelings to letting kids feelings dictate parents decisions. And we've kind of stopped being the pilot of our family plane and the way we get back to being that pilot is still care about kids feelings. But we have to start understanding what a boundary actually is and isn't setting them and then tolerating our kids being upset with us. For someone that might not know, can you explain what a boundary is and then what the difference between a boundary and a request is? I feel like boundaries like we say it all the time. I've even said it and I've been like, I don't know, I'm just saying this because other people say it, but I know I should do it. But I don't think I'm doing this right. It's confusing because it's a word that's thrown around all the time and we often hear it like, she doesn't respect my boundaries. I need boundaries, right? Boundaries essentially are limits you set. They're often limits you set. But another way to think about boundaries is boundaries really especially in parenting, but in any relationship or in assertion of your very appropriate authority. And I say that slowly because I think the word authority we can talk about this brings up a lot of feelings in people. And I think that's because a lot of us have had kind of scary authority in our past or authority that felt really disrespectful or worse or just really aggressive. But I think about authority like the pilot has authority of a plane. I don't want the pilot asking for my permission to change altitude. That would really scare me. And even if I'm screaming, no, you have to change altitude. This is turbulent. This is really turbulent. It the pilot said, oh, okay, okay, sure. I'd be like, what is going on? Right? So if a boundary is an assertion of your authority, I think the most practical way of defining it is a boundary is something you tell your kid you will do. And it requires your kid to do nothing. So I'm looking here and I'm looking at my, you know, glass here. And if one of your older ones is like jumping over here and you're like, he's going to get hurt. Like it's not even, maybe you don't even care about the furniture. It's just like you're literally going to smack your head. I think we end up saying a lot of requests. And then we get frustrated. A request is something you ask someone else to do. Stop jumping. And then we say like these things that would just been conditioned to say, like we don't jump near glass cups in this family or something. I got even though I feel like kids are like, yeah, I know. I've never seen you guys jump near a glass cup. Why are you saying that to me? It's just like a weird thing to say, right? But all of those are requests because the success of that moment actually requires a kid to do something. We don't hit. Stop throwing sand. Requests are fine. But when a kid is out of control and they're kind of showing you, yeah, like I'm not going to be listening to you right now. They need a boundary. So then with jumping on the couch, if stop jumping on the couch as a request, what's the boundary so that they don't jump on the couch? Right. So a couple parts of that. Very simply my kid jumping on the couch might say, first, hey, can you get jump off, you know, get off the couch? They don't, okay, look, I'm going to walk over to you. And if by the time I get there, you're not off the couch, I will pick you up and put you on the floor. If you just, let's just break down what I said. First of all, and the tone matters because boundaries are something we do for our kid because we love them. They're not something you do to a kid. Hey, get off the couch. Hey, I'm going to pick you up off the couch and put you on the ground. Like the words are the same and that's what the danger of scripts are. Like you read both in a post and you're like, yeah, I'm doing that. Like you hear those two people are doing very different things. But why do I love some of the scripts though? You know, I, well, I think we love scripts for a couple of reasons. Number one, I do think sometimes parenting is like learning a new language, especially if we want to do any part of it different than how we were raised. It's kind of like, well, you're raised in Mandarin. You want to speak Spanish. When you're learning Spanish and you're trying to order to restaurant, it's helpful to have a script. You're like fumbling your voice. You're like, oh, yeah, okay, I can do that. And there's something else about certain scripts. And I know we were talking a little before recording that sometimes when you read certain words, there's just this internal knowing of, oh man, I could have really used someone to say that to me. I think, and like, it's going to feel really good because it feels aligned with my values to say that to my kid. Now how that actually comes out, I think we probably need a little more fundamental understanding, which is some of the thing we skip with like just Instagram post therapies. Okay, I got it. But sometimes it's like we have a script. It's like a flag, but like you don't actually have a foundation to like put it in. So we just are like carrying flags everywhere. And we're like, I'm not making progress. And you're like, yeah, there's no ground. You know, there's no. So I think that idea and your question is such a beautiful one. What is a boundary? Okay, it's something I'm setting a limit for my kid. It's because maybe they're not safe in the moment. Maybe because I am more of an authority. I know certain things that are going to be good for my kid long term. I know going to sleep at a certain time matters. I know screen time matters. I'm not going to get my four year old to agree with me. Just like, I don't understand pilot stuff like pilot does. And then if I understand that, I can see a script. And I kind of know enough to feel like, okay, I'm going to put that into action. And it's going to end up helping so much more. Not because you're parroting, but because you actually kind of have the essence of it in you. I think the script that Abby and I both like to say, I learned this from Abby. And I want to say Abby learned this from you. But it's my number one job as your parent is to keep you safe. And that's okay. Beautiful. And I'm obsessed that you say that. And I think, I think, yes, that is, quote, my line, but it's all of our lines. And I think the reason so many of these things resonate is because there's something so intuitive that feels so right in us that, like, I don't feel like I need to own that. Like that, that truth, I really believe lives in all of us. Like, yeah, that is my parents number one job. It was ours when we were young. And that doesn't mean happy. That's been confused in 2026. Safe and happy or safe and comfortable are very different things. I'm not going to keep my kid perfectly comfortable all the time. But that is actually why I take my kid off the couch. That's even why I might take my kid away from a birthday party. Like they're ruining your son's birthday party by having kind of having this tantrum. Your kids trying to have happy birthday. And I've been at these prices. I want to sit next to this person and I want the chocolate cake. I'm going to say, Hey, I'm picking you up and carrying you to the car. And I'm going to do it. Not because my kid says, that's a good idea. That's not going to happen. It's going to protest. I'm not going to go high five on good decisions. No. But I'm going to do it because my kid's watching himself or herself be so out of control. They're almost watching themselves be a bad kid. I'm not going to let my kid do that. So even there and saying hello to your kid before you're about to set a hard boundary, my number one job is to keep you safe. It definitely sinks into a kid. It feels so powerful. you're almost reminding yourself of your values, which is why you're going to tolerate somewhat of a hard moment. Is that also where you, I've already talked about long-term greedy. Yes. And so I think that that also is kind of counter to what we see a lot online in a way because it's like, a lot of it is we're kind of, I feel like sometimes I've fallen victim to this too. Like, gauging my job, like how I'm operating as a parent based off how my kid feels about me and it feels about the situation. And so I think hearing you talk about long-term greedy, which I want you to kind of describe has kind of given me a little bit more confidence in some of the batteries I've set as a parent. Yeah. Yeah, I always think everything we do a good inside and I guess my method in general is very practical for today because hello, we have to solve the problem in front of us. And what I mean by long-term greedy is the years when our kids are young have an inordinate impact on the rest of their life. And I know that feels scary and that's never too late, it's just also true. So they're learning the rules of a relationship with us. What does closeness look like? Does closeness mean I get every single thing I want? I mean, there's never been a more important time, especially when raising boys to feel really freaked out by that. Is my disappointment some other woman's problem to solve? Hey, you told me you'd take me to ice cream, you have to take me. But yeah, that looks kind of harmless as a four-year-old, but you told me we would do X and now you have to do that thing is very harmful as a 20-year-old. And so if I think about that moment, the reason I'm going to say, "You want ice cream?" Look, maybe even it's true, I did promise you. You're totally right. And, I don't know, your brother or something happened, whatever it is, it's okay if you're mad, we're not going today, we're going to get through this. The truth is you get no immediate gratification for that moment. I just think this is so important for parents to hear. Again, my kid, it's not like my kid has ever said, "Wow, thank you for investing in my future self." Or high five. Yeah. No. And the worst part, I think of it, is if I do say, fine, or going, I do get immediate gratification. Let's just call a spade a spade. My kid stops crying. Yeah. They give me a hug. And so you're right. There's this moment where you're in the closet and you're like, "Why am I saying no? Why am I making my life harder today?" And the reason we do that, not 100% of the time. There's some percent of the time you're like, "You know what? Fine. God, ice cream." Okay, me too. Because you're like, "This is not the day I can hold the boundary." But if the patterns I'm setting today with my kid are their default settings for how they're going to expect things in the world and operate in the world and what they're going to be able to tolerate. I won't make it to tolerate disappointment and jealousy when they're older. We're going to still have moments when they're 25, when they feel rejected. Like no one ever came to my practice and said, "My parents were such good parents that they got all of the negative feelings out of me. I just feel happy all the time." But I'm sure you and I both know 25, 45-year-olds who are just as incapable of actually coping with disappointment, frustration, and jealousy as maybe their own two-year-olds are. If you're a business owner, have you ever found yourself trying to do everything alone and not knowing what to do because you need specialized work? Our friends at Upwork are here to help. The most successful business owners don't do it all themselves. They delegate. 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Visit Upwork.com right now and post your job for free. That is Upwork.com to connect with top talent ready to help your business grow. That's UPWORK.com. Upwork.com. I think that's the hard thing for me to grasp is so much of my life, I've realized that I've been trying to optimize for comfort and then I don't know, you get into a comfortable place but then things still happen and you have to work through. I have to work through those feelings and so raising or boys right now, it's hard for me to conceptualize that they're going to go through a lot of really hard things at some point. It's just, it's going to happen. And I like how you've basically said that optimizing for your child's comfort is really in the long term going to harm them because then they won't know how to work through those emotions. I think something that's top of mind for a lot of people right now is this Cornell incident where if you could kind of explain, you know, maybe very briefly what happened and what parents can do to make sure that they're raising emotionally intelligent kids. So I just flew here, you know, to Arizona and this is what I spent my whole plane ride writing about. I actually just had an interview about this and it's really on my mind for a number of reasons. I'm going to try to recount factually again, I'm not an investigative reporter, right? But what I've been reading is that there was sexual assault a Cornell a couple years ago. There was a girl, there were a group of seven boys who were involved, there was drugs, there was alcohol and there was, you know, pretty documented text messages, including a large group of people who weren't technically those seven but who are on the message seeing evidence of some pretty nasty stuff and saying nothing, okay. So I think what I've been getting a ton of from our community is like, what really matters when raising boys, like we all want to say not not my son, not my son, but how do we go from that belief and that hope to again, there's no guarantees in life, but our kid having a fighting chance of not being, you know, one of those, okay. So I think there's a couple things that I've been thinking a lot about that I think are really important whether you have daughters or sons. Number one, knowledge and knowing the right thing is completely different than having the emotional skills to use that knowledge in a heart situation. So for example, I know I shouldn't yell at my kid, I'm sure you guys know that. And if I said, Abby, if you were in a situation when your kid was having a tantrum, would you yell at him, you'd be like, yeah, no, no, and I'd be like, okay, if all I said was good, you know, and walked away, I don't know how often that translates when you're exhausted, you haven't been sleeping or again, like I know I shouldn't scroll on my phone before bed. But if the reason I'm scrolling at night is I feel like I've lost any sense of myself and I need an escape and I need something that feels like mine, then unless I'm able to manage those emotions, knowing the right thing, we all know in life, it just doesn't even get you that far. So I think one of the questions is like, what are the emotional skills we need to be building? And what are the relationship patterns boys need with their parents? Things like do I believe tolerating disappointment is part of what I do in a relationship or do I believe that my disappointment in someone else's fault? I'll give you an example of this, because I see it all the time, lose the basketball game, soccer game of the sport, boy comes to the car, I hear it, the refs suck, the ref stinks, we lost that game because of the refs. Now, okay, first of all, sometimes the ref misses a call. That's classic, I love that though. But if that's the pattern, right? What's actually going on is this kid feels disappointed because they lost. Maybe they feel embarrassed, they lost to a friend. And what they're actually saying is like, who did this to me? Not who did this, who did this feeling to me? It's the ref's fault. That is so toxic if you think about what that can translate. Like I get rejected by a girl, a girl says no, and I feel disappointed in my body. Like, I'm sorry, you're the villain for giving me disappointment. Like nobody gave you disappointment, you are disappointed, right? But that's one theme, another theme. And this is something I think that's so usable even in your kid's age, noticing. Like, I think about, and this happened a little while ago, I was on the phone on a work call, one of my kids came in, "Mom, mom, I need a snack, I need a snack." I'm like, look at me, classic, I'm not a ball of classic, these children, okay? And what I wanted to say after, and I've said this, is like, "What's wrong with you?" On the phone, stop interrupting, okay? But you know what? Something that I find simple and profound. You can't change your behavior for things you don't really notice. Noticing is an essential skill, especially for boys. When you came in, did you notice what I was doing? Not really. Well, if you go back, "Oh, oh, you're on the phone." Yeah, I was on the phone. What do you think I was doing on the phone? I don't know who you were talking to, I know, but you're kind of saying something. Oh, I was probably talking to somebody else. What do you think I needed in that moment? You probably needed me to wait, like, totally. Now, look, I get that, it's hard, you're hungry. I needed you to wait, you wanted to snack. These are just incompatible desires in the moment. What could you have done? What could you, you know, oh, well, I guess I could have just like gotten my own snack or maybe when I come in the door, I shouldn't just like yell right away. I should like see what's going on for you. (laughs) Like we talk all the time. We want our boys and their older to be able to say, hold on, like what's going on with other person? And this can be in many contexts. Do they find this joke funny? They were laughing, but oh, they kind of stop laughing and look down. Like I wonder what that means. I wonder what I should do. And so I think these are the conversations around this new story is so evocative because I think so many people have had these experiences, right, and they'll continue to. But to me, the amazing thing in parenting is hold on. Yes, we need to have the conversations. Do you know what consent is? What would you do if your friends were doing something? But I consider those knowledge conversations, I think they matter, but they are the very, very start. Then it's what patterns am I setting? And what emotional skills am I building in my kid? So that knowledge can actually be lived out in reality. - That's so good. That's crazy how that could even start. Now like our kids are four, three. - Yeah. - How that foundation starts. I don't want to back you into a corner, but I do have a very curious question. - I mean, I think I think a version of this question is like there's so many kids that difference is boys, girls, neurodivergence, you know. And so I guess I think a couple of things where I do think that most kids need quote the same things in general. But looking at your specific kid and their uniqueness means like certain things need to be a little more emphasized, certain things. - Yeah, and one of the really interesting things I find with boys and girls in general, obviously there's exceptions. - Right. - Is girls somehow are socialized to notice everything? We notice things and take responsibility for things that someone would say to us, you know, that's like totally not your responsibility. And we act accordingly. Like might this person be upset if I do this? Oh wait, I think they are upset. They kind of blink their eye twice. So I won't order my coffee, whatever it is, right. Like we moderate our behavior so often about things we notice in our environment or ways we're worried about even potentially upsetting someone. Boys, not all of them, right, definitely again. But traditionally, it's almost the opposite. If I think about the ref example, it's like I'm upset who's fault is it? And so many women are who's upset it's my fault. And it almost like unfortunately, like fits together. And so if I'm thinking about my daughter, like learning how to gaze in a little bit more, notice yourself, wait, hold on, it's true that's happening. You know, what's going on for you? Right, like learning how to shift a gaze from caring about everyone's feelings, often at the expense of her own. I feel like it's really important to raise girls who have a sense of what's going on inside of them, are able to speak up for it, even if it might inconvenience someone else. And in boys, I think what we're talking about, and again, these are general rules is, wait, boys maybe need a little bit more practice noticing signs from everyone else in the environment, even noticing their environment. Like, oh, can I notice that the kitchen is messy? And then can I throw the garbage away? Right, like not just taking out the trash, but as we know, as we all have kids, like what bugs people in marriage is so much is, okay, my partner will do the thing, but I feel like I'm the only one who noticed all the clothes were getting small. Sure, I guess if I ask, you know, he'll order it, but I would love him to say, hold on, are all the bathing suits about to get too small? We should order them before the summer. It's actually the noticing, right? So yeah, I think there's a lot of similarities and I think there are some differences. That was so well described. I think that's also where we call male vision. That's where that comes from. I'm like, look with your eyes, Matt. What is, what is male vision? Like I'm like, hey, go grab the, what was I, go grab my hawk up from the fridge. He's like, it's not in the fridge. I'm like, look with your eyes. Probably right. (laughing) Our kids have gotten it too, unfortunately. There is some, I don't know what it is about, about women, but it's like your sight is just better. I don't know. We're noticing. I think, well, I think we're socialized too, and there's probably some evolutionary old reasons where if we weren't traditionally as physically strong, and it used to be a very different environment, you and I would be like, I better be darn attentive to what could be a threat, 'cause I'm gonna be a little less likely, maybe, to be able to fight that bear. So I better notice it first and start running. And start running, right? And so, yeah, I mean, and this is like such a good concrete example. I was so annoyed at my son for a while about his towel on the floor. Like, I walk into his room, the first thing I see is his towel on the floor. How can he walk out of his room and not pick up his towel? Like, it does not compute. And annoyed, annoyed, why can't you pick up your towel and you're so rude, you have to do it. And I actually came to this idea of noticing. I said, so weird question, but when you walk out from your room, come to have dinner, after he showers, do you notice the towel on the floor? And he was like, no, which actually is helpful 'cause I think we think our kids are like, I see it. And I just don't care, or I see it. And I know my parent wants me to pick it up. So I'm just gonna make them mad. Like, that's not what's happening. And it changed my intervention. 'Cause I said, well, noticing things and keeping, you know, your room looking good is really important. Like, how, how could you get better at noticing? I was like, I don't know. And this is where you have to like lead a kid to the well a little bit. 'Cause I remember saying, I wish there was like a note you could put on your door that like sticks. So I wish there was like a sticky type of note. Oh my God, I post it now. And I was like, oh, brilliant. Great idea. - Yes. - Great idea. And he's like, I guess I could have a note that says towel and put it on my door. And this is where it goes, could you write that for me? And this is where I get, I'm like, zero percent. Zero percent, I'm not gonna do things for you that I know you can do for yourself. And this is about you kind of developing that skill. And this is such a good habit. Like, how cool in your life to have a process of I keep not doing something? How could I notice that more? And then what is something I could do on my own to help that become more likely? And it's actually something he repeats. He, there's a note that kind of reminds him what he has to pack the night before he, you know, go into school. And so again, the skill when you come to, okay, what's really going on underneath? And then how can I actually help my kid build that skill? I think boys are girls and definitely around noticing and especially for boys, more important than ever. That's great. - A skill we're working on right now is listening. - Great. - So slight problem right now. We'll say, hey guys, time to go upstairs to brush your teeth. Time to go to bed. We're gonna read books, head upstairs. - They don't argue. - Great. - And they just-- - They just-- - Don't listen. And then we have to say it again. - We don't even know if they can hear us. - And again. And then I'll be like, like-- - Until you say a buzz word, like fruit snack. - Usually, yeah, usually there's like warnings too. I'll even, I don't know what it is about bedtime. But it's like, I could give a five minute warning and then I give the two minutes and the one minute and still it's like the listening just isn't happening. - Yeah. - What do you do if your kid's not listening to you? - It's such a good question. - Okay. - Complete, ignoring. - Yeah. - So here's my, a couple questions just to get more information. - Yeah. - If you said at that exact same time, ice cream sundaes for everyone on the table, they would hear. - Oh, yeah. - Perfectly. - They're just like-- - They're sitting on the table. - Okay, that's what I assumed. But just making, okay. So it's not some like auditory. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They're hearing you there. - Why? And this is one of my favorite questions. Just, it always helps me try to figure out how to solve problems. And I always would rather teach parents how to think through things than just give a solution because that's what is ownable, right? Okay. Truly, let's brainstorm together. Why? What's the difference? And this, we don't have to think too deeply. Why don't you do it? - They don't want to go to bed. - They don't want to do it. First of all, I think we tend to call listening by saying my kid doesn't listen when we really mean my kid isn't doing the thing I would like them to do and they don't want to do. And by the way, so much of parenting is getting your kid to do things. They don't want to do it. I'm not saying that doesn't matter. But it helps us see it differently. Because I know if I was finally like on my couch reading a book, okay, I'm finally, I'm reading a novel these days. I have like five minutes before I end up falling asleep because my kids are older. If I was on the couch in those five minutes, reading my book and my husband goes, Becky, come bring me water and let's do our taxes. - Okay. - And you watch this. And if I'm like, I'm just gonna keep doing this. I'm like, not gonna respond like what your boys do. And he asks again and he does it again. And if you heard him say Matt Abbey, like Becky, Becky is a listening problem. I'm gonna take away her phone. I'm just curious. Would you think that's like an accurate description? Or would you think my husband is, I don't know, like missing something important? - Do I think your husband should take your phone away? - No, if he said to you, let me try it. - I'll be a little bit worried if your husband was like, I'm taking care of her. - I'm taking care of her. - 100%. - I'm having a little concern. - Yeah, just be clear. My husband does not talk to me about it. Okay, sorry. But I think that's my point. That's what we like often go to as parents. My kid has a listening problem. And what can I take away, right? But if you heard my husband do that, I think you'd be like, you have a husband problem. [BLANK_AUDIO] have a listening problem, you literally have a husband problem. And what your husband is missing is like, you just are doing something enjoyable. And number one, you don't want to do that. Number two, he called for the other side of the room. Like, you're probably not even connected. And if he really wanted you to stop reading and do taxes, I don't know. He should probably sit next to you on the couch. He should probably say something like, Hey, look, I see you. Oh, you're reading your book. I know probably the last thing you want to do is come do taxes. The other thing I know is if that day, I was trying to get his attention, he was like, always on the phone or something versus if that day, I don't know, I felt connected. I don't know. We were having some good communication. He was really listening to something I want to talk to him about the chance of me listening is different. So, so here's what I want to bring together. I think when we say my kid doesn't listen, we have to really reconsider my kids just not doing the thing I want them to do. Why do people in close relationships ever do something? They don't want to do. It's often because you feel close to someone. And it's also because you feel understood by them in that moment, right? And there's usually a system around the moment. I'll explain what I mean that actually supports it. So, why don't kids want to go to bed? Well, first of all, they know they're going to have to stop all the fun. Whatever daytime fun is, it's more fun than sleep. And they know they're going to have to be away from you. Now, I don't know if this has gotten worse, but so many toddlers, their sleep gets way worse and their protests get way more intense after this baby. Because in part, they know they're like, hold on. Baby gets to be with you all night. I'm no dummy. And me, I have to like, say goodnight. Let's be honest, you're probably rushing me through it because you will like have to do the feeding or you have to do the bottles. And I'm just like kind of trying to check the box. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to read and I'm skipping, I don't know every couple words in the book. Thankful. I can't read yet. Like, they know kind of. And they also know they're going to have to kind of say goodbye to you and not really goodbye. But kids have to separate from parents for longer at night, literally more hours. While they're often alone in a room in the dark, then they do like preschool. And we think a lot about separation at preschool. But going to bed is kind of just a form of sleep struggles and separation. And so, okay, that to me is how I'd understand it. So tell me if that lands and then we could talk about, okay, but what do I do? You probably know that we are not the huge reality TV buffs over here. But if we are watching reality TV, it's probably because it's love on the spectrum and a new season is out. It is one of our favorite shows of all time. It is just such a heartwarming program. And of course, one of our favorite people from the show is none other than Connor Tomlinson. I'm a fan of Connor because he is a history nerd like me. And he's coming out with his own history podcast called What The Fact. And him and his co-host, Carter Roy, take three unbelievable true facts and tell you the full story behind each one every Wednesday. One week it's iconic movies that almost didn't get made. The next week it's history's pettiest feuds. Then it's the women so powerful they started wars. Carter sets the scene and Connor brings the deep cuts, the hilarious tangents and the infectious enthusiasm. Every episode puts a smile on your face and leaves you feeling a little smarter. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Follow What The Fact on your favorite podcast app or subscribe on YouTube at What The Fact Pod. For me at least it's landing. I think it's really good. I think your teachings on helping your kids feel understood and you recognizing their feelings and recognizing what they're going through. I think that's just like being a good person 101 first of all. But I love that. I guess my only hole up though is, is it always realistic to go be next to your kid? Totally. And I think people are busy. A lot of parents have multiple kids. Yeah. And sometimes you just have to say, hey, time to go upstairs and go to bed, time to go brush your teeth or, hey, we need to leave right now for, you know, aunt, whatever's house. How what are parents supposed to do in a real-world scenario then where you don't have the time to sit down and be next to them and put your hand on them and say, hey, it's time to go do this. Yeah. So first of all, I love that push. And to me, the type of parenting I like talk about is purely realistic parenting. I have three kids too. I'm generally in a rush most hours of my life. So 100%. So I think the reality is, if I'm saying to myself, look, I just have to be in a situation where I'm saying to my kid, look, shoes on. We got to leave the house. We're going to, you know, uncle, whoever's house or, hey, right now, go upstairs and go get your pajamas on. My first reaction to that is, I don't know one human being who would ever cooperate with someone in that situation. I just don't. I just don't know why that helps because you're connecting to your kid. Connection to your kid is it like, hey, let's talk fun and play as connection. And by the way, if my husband said to me with that tax as example, I have this funny tax game we could play. I'd be like, oh, cool. Everyone is more likely to do something when it's fun. So sure, there's a game. Something else I'm curious about is what are they doing when they're not listening, trying to get a kid and not saying this is your kid, but needs to be said off the TV or off an iPad, like put the iPad down. We're going to sleep. It's just they are in an immersive world. They probably don't even care you. And it's jostling to come out of it, which is kind of what I was thinking about the system. So where your kid is in the moment, you're trying to get them to cooperate. It's like, I know adults who still like video games, if their wife was like, I need you to stop playing right now and come to dinner with no warning. It'd be like, yeah, like that's just too jostling. That's not a situation that's not a system that could work. Oftentimes, what we'll do is we'll try to give a warning. We'll try to give like, hey, five minutes, we're going to leave. We'll certainly have a concept of time. But I mean, usually when I'm giving them little reminders ahead of time, that really helps. But I think what every parent can relate to is you're running late, you're stressed. There's a lot of things you have to do. And then not only is your kid not listening to you, but then they start to throw a tantrum. Oh, yes. I know. So what do we do then? Yeah. That's when you put them in time out, right? You know, look, I also think we either spend time parenting, preparing or reacting. And however, we're used to spending time, we don't account for as time. So when you say to your kid, time to upstairs and you say it over and over, we have to leave the house. And then you're dealing with the meltdown. When someone says, hey, here's something you could do a couple minutes before I get it. You're like, I don't have time for that. You don't realize you just spent eight minutes dealing with that. And by the way, you might have spent a half an hour over the course of your day feeling guilty. And you literally woke up feeling like a bad parent for 45 minutes. Like, I promise you, I can cut that time, you know, hugely schedules and anything visual is hugely helpful for kids at any age in a transition. I mean, think about if you had to leave the house and you had no idea what you're doing, okay? And Abby was just like, we got to go. And you're like, I don't do I have a breakfast meeting. If you don't have a calendar, you know, how resistant we would be as adults, picking my even wearing the right thing. Like, how long am I going to be out for? There was a day my kid was like three. I'll never forget. He was going to be such a hard time about leaving the house. And he finally just said, where am I going? Oh, it's like the plight of a child. So let's take leaving the house. I know it's going to sound annoying. And you don't have to be an Etsy parent. You can Google an image or put it into chat. CBT and print out the first thing they give you. But if it just says shoes, I don't know, whatever it is, water bottle, shoes, backpack, song, car, because sure, on the way you play a song from Spotify, there's an order. Now it's you and your kid against the wall instead of you against your kid. And your kid also has like an anchor to understand what's happening at transition, going at the house as a transition, going to bed as a transition. The moments kids don't listen are almost always a transition. And when you can't imagine the next thing, for us to, it's really hard to agree to it. So that's one little hack that it's true. It will take four minutes to set up. And you and giving this to your kid is so powerful because you can say, warnings are hard. Like for your kids, I feel like going to bed is hard, isn't it? Like it's been hard. Let's be honest. We ask. You say, no, you say, no, there's a little this, there's a little that. And I would even ask, what would your kids say? This is the skip. The step we also often skip. What would make it easier to go from playing to bed? You're a smart kid. What would make it easier? What do you think either your boys would, what would they say? Even if it's silly? Probably ice cream, candy, popsicles. Yeah. So this is where again. Great. Ask them that question. It's just so respectful. Like ice cream, you can give me ice cream. Oh, you know what? That would be fun on the way up ice cream on the way to bed. Oh, probably not going to happen. But I think you're telling me you wish it was more fun. Because like going to bed isn't always so fun. You know what? Sometimes we can do that running game. Sometimes I can bring a silly question. Is there a song that you know from school that's silly? Oh, could you teach me that song? And I know, I know I hear parents being like, Dr. Becky, I can't do that. Like we underestimate all the things we are doing that I promise takes so much more energy. And so like an ounce of preparation, whatever that quote is, I can't even finish it, but there's some quote is worth a pilot. That's not the quote, but it's my quote is really true. Now in terms of the tantrum, do you want to go through how to handle it? I think we should. I think something that just stuck out to me is we actually get for kids chocolate milk every night. No, I'm thinking already of the images we could use. I feel like they're really grasp on to that because I did a chant for them for bedtime and I feel like it's just too. like the visual aspect would really help. - Wait, remind me of the chant, what is the chant? - With them in the car, if it's like a time when we're getting home late, and I'm like, I already know we're already starting with that little thing. - Like tonight, we're having dinner at our friend's house. - Shoes, and then they fill it out, and I'm like, then, and I set and put them in the cubby. Then we go up, stare, like they have like a chant for them, but I feel like the visual would really help too. - You're such a good mom, like she just did this, and I didn't even think of any of that, you just did it. - You're nice. You're already like doing the Dr. Becky teaching without even, you just, - I've seen her research. - Something, maybe you've been getting the clips recommended. - Well, because, but I think that you have that, and we all do have a little bit in us, and then you watch it help, and of course it helps. It's a song, it also actually is giving them, in order, gives them a little control, and it's something you create together. So now when you come home, it's like, oh, us and mom, we have this thing, and that really helps manage the transition too. It's kind of also from like classroom management, learning that in college. I was an elementary, I was an elementary school teacher, like having to do that with that when you kids, they do things like charts on the wall for their morning routine, like same things like that, and chance. - So many lessons. - But we should talk about chant drums, because I feel like, I know as a parent, you're not supposed to say, you shouldn't say, probably, stop crying, that feels toxic and wrong, but sometimes I feel that urge, and then I'm like, oh, don't whine, but then, does that, is that also not? - That's why it's nice that they made noise-canceling headphones now, so you can just throw those in. - It's true. - That's why we can go to our own closet and just scream, "Sat at it, I can lay down on clothes!" Or just like, we throw our own separate tantrums. - Exactly. So just give me a real life situation. I think it, like, where's the situation one of your kids will have a tantrum from this morning? - Yeah, we've already had multiple tantrums today. - Oh, trying to, it's usually transition times. - Yeah. - Getting out of the car. He was really liking the book, he was reading. - Oh, that's so sweet. - I know, I was like, I love that you love books, but-- - He was literally reading a book. - Yeah. - And he didn't want to stop. - He didn't want to stop, yeah. And so, limp. - Uh-huh. - And, we're late, and I have to go, I have the babies also crying. - Yeah. - And also, there's tears, yeah. And there's some potential violence towards me. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Potential. - I would have never accused my child of such things. - But I'm sure it was acting. - Kidding. - A little kicking and balls. - Yeah, we do have a kid. If you get too close, you could get sucked in the face. So you gotta be careful. - Yeah. - I always think when I was, when my kids were your kids age, I was like, do you guys think I work out to look good? Like, I work out to block the moment. - Oh, yeah. - So I need to get ready. That's why I work out. So I'm hungry now, also carrying that thing. - Exactly. - Okay, so what is a tantrum? - All a tantrum really is our feelings that are greater than skills to manage feelings. And that's what our tantrums are, too. I know they don't look the same, but like we have moments where we just kind of collapse. And so often what a tantrum about is about is exactly what you said with your son. That not only in general feelings are greater than skills, but almost every moment a kid is having a tantrum, what's really happening is a kid is kind of saying, I want something and you are not letting me have it. I want ice cream and you said no. I want to stay up and you've said bedtime. I want to read and you said I have to get out of the car. And I think the thing that we can all relate to as humans is wanting something really badly and someone else stopping you from getting it. It's just like a really hard human experience. It never gets easy. And this might sound weird, but I never hope it gets easy for someone. I hope they get good at managing it in a healthy way, but the worst thing is if my kid becomes an adult, it's like I want this job and I didn't get it. What else? I want to be with this person and oh, they actually dumped me to be with my best friend. Like, that's not kind of my guess. It's darn what? You know you're allowed to want things for yourself, right? That's kind of the essence of self-esteem is the belief that you can want things for yourself. And it's just a human conundrum that wanting and not having stinks. And so that's what a tantrum is. They don't have the skills to manage it. And so then I think it comes down to it. That's what it is. Well, what is my job in a tantrum? To me, that question when I think about what I'm trying to do in this world and good inside, it's not, I love scripts, but it's not just intervening at that level. It's really helping parents have a repeatable way of thinking through hard problems. And I start to do some of it. Step one is kind of what's really going on. What might be at play? And question two is what is my job? And unfortunately, and Abby, you said this, too many times we define our job by our kids' response, by our kids' behavior. When in no other job in the world, like if a pilot is judging whether they flew the plane well by a passenger's reaction, turbulence, that would be the totally wrong metric. I don't know exactly what their metric is, but I'm sure it actually just has to do with what's happening in the cockpit, right? What they're doing. So what is our job during a tantrum? And I think we have two jobs, really. It's to keep ourselves calm as calm as possible, and to keep our kids safe. Now, if you think about what you're saying, there was only one thing unsafe really about it, maybe hitting, right? Like flailing that, no. And to try to keep ourselves calm, right? That is the hardest and most important thing, because during a tantrum when a kid's feelings are so big, what they're really absorbing from a parent is this feeling that overwhelms me, like does it also overwhelm my parent? Because if it does, I guess it really is bad and toxic, and I don't know if I'm gonna be able to manage it. But if the feeling that overwhelms me is something my parent can handle, that's the first step of a kid feeling like, oh, maybe this is survivable. So let's get to this situation. What does that actually mean I would do? I'm trying to keep myself calm, keep my kids safe. So at first, my kids upset, okay. And maybe I'm still saying, oh, the language of wishing is really powerful, because when anyone isn't getting what they want, acknowledging what their wishes make them feel really understood, like it's even true at adults. Oh, you wish we could go to your families for Christmas. So much better than, come on, we talked about it, right? It's just like, just people want their wishes acknowledged. They feel real. So, oh, you wish you could keep reading, so simple. You wish you could have ice cream. You wish you could stay up as late as your older sister. Whatever it is, just, and I would call that name the wish, and the reason that's so powerful is because one point your son, instead of having a tantrum, is gonna look at you, and I swear to you, is gonna say, I have to get out, I wish I could keep reading. And you're gonna think I literally worked on that for a year, but holy moly, you are now the type of kid who knows those feelings are yours, isn't blaming me, and has a language to regulate yourself. Okay, that makes sense. So by you expressing empathy for what they're going through, they learn that language, and you're modeling it for them. You're modeling for your kid, how to handle their feelings, and how to put words to their feelings. A hundred, and I want to go to a quick second, because the boundary piece matters. If all I'm saying when my kid is in the cars, you wish you could watch, you wish you could watch. And I'm like, it's been half an hour. I'm late for my meeting, my kid's not in school. At some point, you might have to set a boundary, which is something you do. You wish you could stay. Is it too hard to get out? I'm about to pick you up, and I'm gonna carry you into school. I'm gonna block you from hitting. I won't let you hit that language. I think really matters. Or at least the essence of the language. Meaning maybe you say nothing, but as your kid hits, you just go, not stop hitting. When my kid is already overwhelmed, not we don't. And there are those two things at once. Empathy and also really strong boundaries. I'm gonna pick you up. I'm gonna carry you. Oh, I know. Not what you wanted. And then, stop talking. That, that, so stop talking. Like, if all you do during your kid's tantrum is take action, which might just be, if your kid, if your kid was really upset and you don't have to get anywhere, and they're just home on the couch, because you won't let them watch the show. I don't know, or won't let them, whatever, have pretzels. If all you do is sit next to them and just say, maybe once, like, oh, I know, bummer. Can we say all to have it? That's a bummer, buddy. That's a bummer. And then you stop talking. You are communicating so much during that tantrum. You're not fixing it. You're kind of exuding the belief, like, no offense, this feeling you're having doesn't, doesn't impress me that much. That is how kids, and you're not giving it. You're not after six minutes. Fine, have the pretzels, because beyond the giving in, what you're kind of saying to your kid, is I don't really think you can survive feeling disappointed. And then no wonder the feeling is even more explosive the next time. Abby, how did we end up getting the tantrum to stop? What did we do today? All their tantrums are really quick. I will say we are pretty lucky in that way. All the, you know, I've been binging Dr. Becky. So like, it was top of mind. So I was trying to validate his feelings. I was saying stuff. But then, like, that wasn't working right away. So then I just tried to, you know, press the factory reset button. And I started, like, farting on his belly, like, you know, the belly, and then he started laughing. Yeah. So then that wasn't the one we were talking about earlier. Oh, there was this was a second tantrum. Wait. So there was more than-- Oh, there were. I did, I just picked him up. There were 10. But that's so-- Let him bring his book with it. Great. Is that giving in? No. OK. Please, if we're worried about kids with books as our-- I know. I think we're like-- Padding ourselves on the back. Yeah. No, but the picking up matters. Because too often, like, in the car, I feel like we ask our three-year-old to do our job for us, just because we don't-- want them to be mad at us. Hey, I really need to go inside. Hey, come on. I'm going to be late. Hey, I'm going to give you one more chance, one more chance. And it's not really just like a warning. It's more just a persistent delay. And then this kid does tantrum longer because they don't, they don't feel like they have a leader. They don't feel like anyone can handle them. That is scarier to your kid. They're like, at first I was a little upset about the book. Now I'm kind of freaked out that my mom seems to be looking for me to make a mature decision and get me into school. Like I'm three. Is there is there anyone in charge here that feels horrible and will make a tantrum go longer, not because the kids trying to take advantage of you, but because they feel even less safe. You use a pilot analogy a lot to describe this whole leadership dynamic. And for anybody that hasn't heard you talk about it before, could you like quickly explain the pilot analogy? Yes. So, and I love metaphors because all these are can be words. But when you feel something in your body, sometimes again, that's how you really understand it and can use it. So, when I think about parenting and kind of this idea of being a sturdy parent, I both set boundaries, I'm a firm authority and I'm loving and validating connecting. A lot of people are like, I don't understand how that can all be. So here's the example with pilots. So let's pretend you're on a flight and Abby, you said you're scared of turbulence. So your perfect example and there's a lot of turbulence. And let's just say it's not normal turbulence. This is like real serious turbulence. You're on the plane with other people. You're screaming everyone's upset. Here's pilot number one. Stop screaming back there. You're making a big deal out of nothing and you guys are just ruining the situation. You always do this. Again, I found the passenger. I was scared of the turbulence. Now, for some, I just can't believe I like knocked my pilot off the rocker from this. That's scary too, that they got so dysregulated. But because they're kind of invalidating like this isn't a big deal, part of me is where do you do notice it? I don't know. I feel like it's pretty turbulent. And however nervous I was before, I'm going to be even more dysregulated. My feelings are going to get even bigger. Do those kids just learn to basically dismiss their feelings then? They learn to dismiss their feelings and probably depending on temperament and I think gender, they learn to just mistrust themselves. So one version that is, oh, I guess I am someone who makes a big deal out of nothing. And if we really want to go back to news, and I'm just thinking not related to anyone specific, but I think about this one, I think about this my daughter. Like when she's in a bar one day, someone's like, they're flirting, whatever. Hey, come home with me. No, and somebody says, no, is that making such a big deal out of it? Come on, it's just going to be fun. And if what her body has learned to that point is I do tend to make a big deal out of nothing. I do tend to be dramatic. I guess I should rely on someone else's sense of what's best for me more than my own. I think it's pretty scary to think about their implications. So yes. And I think that's the parenting of, you know, and again, this is not one time doing damage, but over and over, you're so dramatic. You can make a big deal out of nothing, right? Why can't you just make situations easy? Okay. So back to turbulence, pilot two. Pilot two is in some ways the opposite is the pilot who says, okay, it's really turbulent. I hear you're nervous. Look, like, oh, okay. Yeah, this is really bad. And I'm just going to open up the cockpit. And if anyone back there wants to fly the plane, you know, the cockpit seat seat is yours. And I think this is embarrassing when we kind of know we want to end screen time. We know it because we feel like it's the right decision. And our kid gets upset. There's some turbulence. And we like literally and figuratively hand them the remote. Like just, okay, you make the decisions. Would that be gentle parenting? I think that is probably the mass media's misunderstanding of gentle parenting, the like mockification of it. Okay. But I think again, it's so increasingly hard in our world to hold two things at once. And so I think what's happened is in the name of caring about kids' feelings. We've forgotten that feelings again need a boundary and shouldn't run the whole family. So yes. Right. And those kids don't learn to regulate their feelings. And those kids actually start to get overwhelmed even more often at smaller and smaller things because no one else, no one helped contain their feelings. So they just, I always picture like an egg without a shell. You know. Okay. So neither of those pilots are going to feel great to us. Yeah. Not a safe, not a safe place to be with those pilots. So let's think about the pilot we want. I call pilot three or this is what I call the sturdy pilot. And what I would want to hear, because I can be scared of turbulence too, is hey, I hear everyone screaming back there. There's a bunch of turbulence. You're right. There's a lot of turbulence. And you're nervous. I get that for you. For me, I've flown a lot of planes. I know what I'm doing. I'm going to get us to the ground safely. And so I'm going to stop talking and going back to doing my job. And I'll see you in Phoenix. And what every time I articulate that pilot, it's this duality. The pilot is able to see the validity of my feeling. Not agreeing. Not saying I feel that too. Just saying you seem to be nervous. There's a reason you're nervous. I say that. And there's something so beautiful about the cockpit because it's literally a door. Because I think then the pilot is saying without saying your feelings are not contagious to me. So I'm not scared of them. Almost like the pilot could say, if you want to keep screaming the rest of the fly, Abby, you do you. It doesn't seem fun, but sure. Either way, I know how to fly this plane. And I know I'm going to get you there safely. And that duality of seeing your kids feelings as real. And not letting those feelings be so contagious to you that they change your mind and dictate your decisions that you can still stay in your role. That is sturdiness. That's a sturdy CEO. That's a sturdy spouse. That is a sturdy partner. That is a sturdy leader. That's a sturdy pilot. And that is what we all always want. I find, okay, so that is really good to hear. And also thinking about a kid that's out of control. And you're saying, Hey, I'm you recognize our feelings. And this you've set a clear boundary. But say it's a situation where like you said earlier, you need to take them away from the birthday party. Yeah. I'm curious how that's different from time out. Yeah. And why you disagree with timeouts. Yeah. Yeah. There are situations where you need to remove your kid and how to navigate that difference. So look, I think what I said before, it sounds like so semantic, but it's really important. Boundaries. And when we need to be a leader, these are things I'm doing for my kid. I actually think at any age, we feel kind of the intention behind someone's intervention. You feel when your boss is giving you hard feedback, they really believe in you. And they thought your presentation was here. They think it's here. And they want to get you there. I really believe our kid's potential, let's say, is here. And my job is to get them there. And I want my interactions as much as possible to exude that. The same exact intervention, right? Can actually be done from a very different place. I'm so frustrated. If I'm really honest at someone, I love my kid, but I don't like my kid in this moment. And you can tell from the language, my kid is so spoiled. My kid is so disrespectful. My kid gives me a hard time every moment. Go to a timeout. It's usually said from that place. I feel out of control. And I want to exert my power on my kid. I want doing something too. I'm like, you go do something that you're not going to like because I don't like feeling this way. And so I'm almost transferring that to you. Are there times when kids need a break? Sure. Of course, we need a break, but the classic timeout and classic terms, maybe not the way parents use it. So I hope my perspective isn't misperceived. But a classic timeout is my kid acts out. And I kind of say you have a two minute timeout for whatever, for talking back, for hitting your brother. And then my kid is supposed to go to their room, sit there for two minutes silently, or you know, and then I say your timeout is over. Come back and we resume normal activities. Okay. Now listen, like there are far worse parenting interventions than that. If doing that with your child stops you from hitting your child, that is a far superior parenting intervention. Okay. And if I'm just talking more theoretically, which I know parenting isn't, but there's a big difference between that and hold on. You're hitting your sister. I'm going to pick you up. I'm going to carry you to your room. Now am I going to stay there the whole time? By the way, real life might happen. I might say, look, you need to take a break with your body. I'm going to check on your sister. I have two good kids. You're having a hard time. I love that phrase. You're a good kid having a hard time. And I kind of think every parenting intervention either comes from seeing your kid as a good kid having a hard time or a bad kid doing bad things. More than any strategy, the mindset difference is the most important thing. In a classic timeout, I think comes from that bad kid doing bad things. And then I think our kids feel that. I think they feel like they're being looked at like that. And I think everything flows from there. Have you ever put off a doctor's appointment so long that you just wished you could make the appointment same day? Get seen. I've been there and that's why I'm a huge fan of ZockDock because with ZockDock appointments happen fast. Sometimes it has quick as 24 to 72 hours. 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It makes me think about that experiment where teachers were like there were two different classrooms with two different teachers that were told like one classroom was told hey you have some really bright students here these are the best the best and the teachers had very high fructations and then in the other classroom the teacher was told hey these are like they're not so smart kids so yeah good luck yeah and the different and the thing is it was it was just regular it was it was they were the same you know there wasn't really any difference and just because the teacher who thought she had better kids she got them to perform at a much higher level yeah I like that idea of approaching it from you have a good kid having a hard time I think that's a really great way to think about it that's right and and if we're not just looking it on the surface level first of all parents need timeouts let's just be clear we need timeouts we need to put ourselves in timeouts more often not from a place of hating ourselves but from a place of hold on like mommy needs a minute dad needs a minute like I sometimes make videos from my closet especially when my kids were younger that's my place like mommy's gonna her closet like I go I sit with my back against the wall there's something just quiet and grounding and like low stimulation and I think so I think of our honest ourselves the moments because I've said it too like Dr. Becky doesn't believe in timeouts of course sometimes I like spew something random like no dessert for a week go to your room like you know okay what do we do instead though because I'll just I'm gonna go ahead and you know I guess reveal our secret yeah we you know like if if one of our kids hits their brother we say hey go take a break on the steps for yeah but what I want to say they're not in the room they're like they're still sure we can visually see them they see us we don't let them play with toys while they're taking their break yeah and then we always just the the amount of minutes that they're taking a break is how how ever many years old they are right so if it's our four year old it's four minutes if it's our three year old it's three minutes yeah well I will say the reason I got there was because in your pilot analogy yeah when you said we're gonna we're still in control we'll see you in Phoenix that kind of reminded me a little bit of how we do take a break yeah even though I do think it also resembles timeout so listen like that's what I'm confused thank you for let's just talk this through because again there doesn't have to there's not there's no purity here okay so your kid what the boys hit each other or something like that yes it usually happens with hitting it's like a dangerous behavior right yeah and I love the idea of being able to sit with them but like we're busy and I don't always have the time to sit I don't I don't during every time and again I don't want this to be misplaced I don't see the perfect intervention no yeah I'm just gonna sit with you like that we can really hear it trust me so let's just again let's start with this because I think step one what's really going on here why is your kid hitting the other kid just since their boys and they usually it's I don't think they're coming from like a malicious place like they're just playing too rough okay so they're playing rough maybe they get activated and all of a sudden it gets rough and that's not when we usually would do a timeout or take a break for it's when it's like we look at them and it's like they wanted to hurt their other brother they got angry yes exactly they chose to hit okay so they're they're angry at their brother has their truck I don't know just like what what what their brother has their blue cop they don't have something from their fighting over a toy and one of them wants it and they're going back and forth and then one of them sucks the other one in the face hits with a weapon great we both want I'm just gonna make up that it's a truck okay but they both want the red truck yeah actually have a children's book about this the truck and hitting exactly so they both want the truck now what do I think is really going on actually the one who's hitting is probably going I really want this I don't have it I'm frustrated my frustration is greater than my skills to like manage that frustration well and it's actually interesting if you think about a feeling in your body that you don't have the skill to contain I'm not talking about suppress contain like put it in a container think about a feeling as a force if you don't have a container an ability to contain a feeling it comes out as yelling as a hit it literally comes out of your body that's what a hit is it's I can't contain frustration I'm good it comes out now really important trying to understand the reason for a bad behavior is not at all the same as condoning it but I always think we can't help but we don't understand okay so long term I think here the biggest thing if I'm long-term greedy is well I don't really think my kids going to be hitting other people over a truck but what is it going to be like when my kid sees other people have something he wants that will happen for the rest of his life with his brother with I don't know with lots of people in the world right and he's going to be frustrated and probably when he gets older probably won't exactly come out in a hit I hope although gosh you know what for some people it comes out like that for a very long time when the stakes are high but it might come out as nasty behavior it might come out as saying something awful about that person that's not even true if if my kid doesn't learn how to actually manage frustration over the next number of years it's not a good situation what is my best bet to help my kid learn that like and again I'm just talking this through I wouldn't do all this in the moment I think there's two categories of intervention with bad behavior what do I do in the moment it's kind of like if there's a fire in your kitchen stop the fire but if there's a fire in your kitchen over and over like you probably have to fire proof your kitchen but you don't do that in the moment you just right so what do I do in the moment the first thing you do in the moment is just stop the behavior however I can't separate no hitting hitting is not okay I won't let you hit okay then I think you're right in that the kid's bodies need to deactivate like they're activated they're not in a place where they're going to make good decisions I'm not pure again about how we do that like do I think we want to do it ideally in a way that doesn't feel like banishment I think in that moment kids are especially sensitive to the idea of is my parent looking at me like I'm a bad kid okay is my parent looking at me like I'm a good kid by the way when you two are not your best my guess is you're sensitive to how the other one is like perceiving you in that moment you right okay so maybe it is and sometimes you can say to your kid before you know you know in our family when anybody in our family does something that's not safe like hitting we first stop it that's dad a nice job that's mom a nice job is to stop it and then we really believe that our bodies eat a little bit of time cool down that's one of the reasons why we sit separate from each other it's really hard to calm your body if you're mad at someone and you're trying to calm down when being next to them virtually impossible whether you're four or 44 so we take space now of a sudden it doesn't have this context like it feels like it's something you're doing for them so then you do that things calm down now here's the interesting part and I think here's the part parents miss that calm down the situation but I don't know if that inherently helps your kid know what to do differently the next time and that's the part that I find especially helpful to play around with with parents because if I'm missing every layup in the game my coach might be right to say Becky like we're gonna play on the bench okay like it's fine but yeah but then I need my coach to do something with me in practice or else why would and I just miss it again yeah and I think that really matters because then if I spend some extra time with my kid doing that if that was basketball right Matt no one would say wow that coach is really enforcing reinforcing bad behavior because they're spending extra time with Becky in the gym you'd say like yeah they're coaching like that's what they're doing so that's where and I've ever done this but I'm just gonna model it because I think we don't think to do it but it's retrospectively obvious hey you know you've been hitting your brother a lot recently oh I know you're a good kid you know sometimes kids are age hit when they're frustrated frustrated just means I want something and I don't have it so we're gonna do something so weird today so weird ready we're gonna take this truck and me and you I'm gonna go like this when we're in the playroom mine my truck literally gonna do that what I want you to do even though it's gonna feel kind of funny because it's made up is I want you to go like this like something a kid I want you to do that and kids will usually do this with you because it feels like play because it is play but if you think about what I'm doing this hitting example the single best thing for someone to learn when they're frustrated if they're hitting as you know it's incompatible with hitting moving their body away from someone but if I'm not playing around with that and I promise you you do that three times and then you find a moment when he's about to play with your brother his brother and say hey if he has your truck do you remember that thing we practiced we move away and we make this funny noise again whatever feels like you do you think you could do that could you do it even if you're not upset I'm actually giving my kids something they didn't have before so now the issue isn't just is it good to give a timeout or not it's a much bigger thing I'm solving which is I'm actually giving my kid a skill they didn't have to actually make a difference going forward so that was a lot reactions no that can banishment ever be a good thing though because I want to think about what we do is not banishment though because they're in there and they're really asking a question I just think about like the real world where if you you know break the law you could end up in jail I love this question you can end up in prison like natural - I love this question. - I love this question. - This is so interesting to me, 'cause I love this question. Okay, and I'm gonna take it, like, head on, because, okay, Becky, like, I heard you're hitting example. Let's even pretend, 'cause, okay, I don't have time to do that. First of all, you're probably playing with your kid for 30 seconds. It takes 30 seconds, okay? But, okay, so if my kid yells at his boss, he's not gonna say, hey, you seem upset. So what about that? He's just gonna get fired, okay? You know what's really interesting to me? I don't want my kid to yell at his boss. Like, it's an interesting thing. Well, if my kid does a bad thing when they're older, this is gonna be the consequence. So shouldn't they have the consequence now? How about we just teach our kids things so they don't do the behavior to have the consequence? It's like, I'm teaching my kid to swim in a training pool. And someone's like, you know, in the real world, they're gonna be in the ocean. There's gonna be waves. Like, yeah, that's why I'm training in the training pool. That's why we don't teach kids to swim in the ocean because the consequences are so high. And so I think that's really important. Like, well, my son's not gonna have someone to treat him that way when he's older. That's why we do things differently today. So they don't get into that situation. I guess like, I mean, I follow that logic completely 'cause like in my head, I'm thinking, okay, in real life, in the real world, when our boys are adults, if they punch one in the face, they'll probably, you could go to jail for that. - Yeah, you can. - So me giving our four-year-old a four-minute timeout seems pretty chill, I guess. - See, that's why I'm always like, four minutes, gosh. I just wait 'til I see him get regulated again though. - That was a conversation. - And then I let him back out. So for Matt, he likes someone to grasp on to. - That was a conversation when we got his four years old. - Because Abby was like, that seems a bit extreme in the four minutes. - 'Cause I was like, look, he's calm down. But-- - Is it working? - You know, the thing is, I think it is. And I think when our kids have been emotionally dysregulated or if they're, if I can tell that they're really not doing well, I will try and go sit with them. And I learned that from Abby, like I, which I'm sure she learned that from you because I've just tried to connect with them and talk with them about their emotions and how they're feeling and I don't know, make them, 'cause ultimately I don't want them to feel ashamed. And I've learned that I guess part of your hesitancy with timeout is the shame as well, you don't want them to. - Again, I do not think parents need to sit with their kids for four minutes. Like I totally get that. It's, there's shame and shame is an interesting thing because shame tends to lead to the animal defense freeze state. We talk a lot about fight or flight as animal defense states. Freeze is usually what shame is. And it's really hard for a kid to learn something when they have a freeze feeling. It literally is the opposite of learning and movement. But the bigger issue I have with timeouts is actually more logical. And again, I have no issue with having a system that a family is like, here's what we do in this family and we take a breath and we do this. And I love that, that's great. It's a totally different intention. But there's bad behavior. Okay, so let's say there's hitting. A timeout, a traditional one or a banishment, whatever it is, punishment happens after the behavior. So for that to really work for a little kid, we're banking on this. We're really banking on this. Okay, I'm about to smack a kid in preschool. Hold on, hold on. The last time I did this, my parent put me in timeout and I didn't like that. Hence, facto, I will do something different now. Like I just think the order of operations is weird. There's the before, there's the behavior, and there's what we do after the behavior. The best way of changing behavior can't be focusing on what you do after someone's behavior. If the whole point is to change the behavior, we'd be much better off thinking, what's going on right before the behavior? And what if we taught our kids to do something differently? Then, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, a quarterback keeps throwing interceptions and do you think they just sit the quarterback down and they're like, look, pick sex, pick sex. Let me show you every video of what happened after the interception. That would be the worst NFL coaching staff in history. You know, a part of the tape they're looking at? - The wins. - Well, maybe the wins. - Right before. - But, and if they want to correct the behavior, they're probably looking at the wins to show exactly. Think about that time you didn't hit your brother. Oh, what a great, but I bet they're looking at the tape before. They're like, what is happening on every time that interception? Oh, and then they notice a pattern and my guess is, and I'm not an NFL coach, they are working on how to do something differently before. That was what my little hitting example was. It's just one example, it doesn't have to be that, but it's kind of saying to a kid, you're gonna get frustrated. The goal is to not get frustrated. The goal is not to not be angry. The goal is not to not be frustrated when someone has something you want. Frustration makes sense. The goal is to think, what can I do when I'm frustrated? That still helps me show up as a respectful human being, and usually the things that help us do that isn't adding harsher punishment. It's actually helping a kid figure out something different to do. The holidays are creeping up, and we also have a newborn in the house, so we are doing everything we can to keep everyone in the household's immune systems strong and healthy, and that's exactly why we love Haya, and include it in our kids' daily routine. We actually love their kids' daily multivitamin. Working alongside pediatricians and nutrition scientists, Haya created a powerful, chewable multivitamin that packs a blend of 12 organic fruits and vegetables plus 15 essential vitamins and minerals into every chewable. - We had so much fun decorating our kids' Haya hells refillable containers with them, and if you've got teens in the house too, Haya just launched a teen daily multivitamin, and it's honestly overdue in this category. 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Go to h-i-a-h-e-a-l-t-h.com/UNPL-A-N-N-E-D, and get your kids the full body support they deserve. - Yeah, I think usually once they're like combed down, we'll say like, what did you do wrong? What should you do differently next time, and what should you do now? - And usually when we do this, and when we're around other parents with kids our age, I see this a lot, it's like, go tell them you're sorry. Go tell them you're sorry. What do you think about that? 'Cause sometimes I'm like there, I feel like I can tell a difference when they're like, but most of the time they're just repeating. - Yeah. - So they can move on. - Yeah, this is where I really mean this, there's zero part of my own parenting or the ideas that I put out there that are permissive, zero. If anyone seems me parent, they'll be like, that is not a permissive parent. But if you're long-term focused, you're not judging your parenting by every moment. So it seems weird to not make your kid apologize. If you're just judging someone's parenting by that specific moment, it's like, oh, you're just gonna let your kid get away with that. What I try to help parents be focused on is, okay, your kid's still young, I would like my kid to feel enough contrition to then figure out how to give an apology, and sure I have a role in encouraging that. But again, kids are more similar to us than they're different. And if I did something mean to my mother-in-law, I'm not even saying, say sorry, say sorry, you're not getting dessert until you say sorry. I'm just like, first of all, I feel tiny, and I don't even feel like I can now, and I hate you. And so how is that helpful for anything? So I believe really strongly in manners, my kids having manners, thank you, gratitude. But you can really tell a kid when they're older, who has performative manners, and it feels icky, and I don't think that's what we're going for. So, okay, so let's say there's a situation, 'cause this is awkward socially. You watch your kid hit a friend and you're on the phone with the mom group. That is awkward. And you're like, oh my God. Right, but again, our gaze. - Or worse is binding. - Or worse is humiliating is biting. - Okay, she's humiliating to the max. - So, we don't do that by the way, we've never been him. We've never been each other. They just started doing this. - The number of parents who have asked me, is the right response to bite my kid back to show them? That's like, how do I-- - How do I-- - Crazy. - Crazy work. - Hold up, hold up. - You can do this so much fun of me. I think we can do so much fun. - We can elevate. - Okay, I, I started like Debraille a second, but like I love the idea of approaching our kids being good inside. - Yes. - But how do you argue that being good inside when they bite a kid? - We never taught them to bite or lie. - Of course you don't. - Look, hey, get truthfully. Like, I mean this. Humans are animals. Okay, we're animals. Why, and this is where that question, like really, really is powerful. What is your most generous interpretation of even why your kid? Who I'm gonna say has never been, why would your son bite someone? What's your-- - In my head, I'm like, did they bite you? - Okay, maybe they did something to you. (laughs) I will defend my kids' health. - Yeah. - Yeah. But why else? I think this really matters. We can't be so- - They're trying to get them up. - They're trying to get them up. They think they need to defend themselves. And sometimes I ask myself, and this might sound weird. I really mean this. I've never been to anyone, and I don't go around fighting people as adults. But I'm like, what type of nutty situation would I be in? Or sometimes things like how desperate would I have to feel to do that? And it's a helpful question. - Okay. - Oh, like maybe I feel overwhelmed. I feel like everyone's against me. I feel like everything I've tried at that point isn't working. Now for all I know, again, that's someone's perception. But first, okay, so that's what's going on. This is not a bad kid, and this is not a bider. We kids see us like we are our kids mirrors. So kids take in the version of themselves, we reflect back, which is one of the worst things we do in perpetuating their struggles. Stop biting people. We're always biting people. Oh, okay, here's this, I guess I'm a bider. - I'm a bider, and then we act in line with that identity. So it's like, no. So number one, if your kid has, and I'll get to the sorry, if your kid bites or has, is in that stage, the number one thing you need to do as a parent is prevent it. Like if you have a kid who's biting, what we usually do is we're like, I hope they don't bite. That's not an intervention, hoping. - You put like a baseball cage over there. - I was thinking a little differently, but I like we are going. A lot of sports metaphors here. I mean, what I would say to my kid, hey, we're going to have a play date. And number one, if my kid's in a biting stage, and they tend to bite when there's a lot of peers around in overstimulation, I really mean that. So I'm going to say it firmly. I am going to zero group play dates for the next month. Not for the safety of everyone around them. - And it's like, I'm just trying to stop drinking alcohol. Like I'm not going to a bar. Like it's just a stupid thing to do. I'm not going to set my kid up for failure, but let's say they're on a play date. Hey, you know what, we're going to do a stay on the play date instead of me being in the kitchen while you and Tommy play. I'm going to be really close to you. Let me just be clear why. It's been hard for you to share toys and play without getting frustrated and biting. My job is to keep you safe. And part of that might mean, oh, noticing. And actually, we're going to take a break and this gets to the core of what I was trying to say. I'm going to try to notice, and we're going to step to the side together. Then, before the biting. Like, and if we all remember going out in like college and we had a certain friend, we're like, they get kind of messy in the, you know, the best intervention is to be like, we're going to the home now. We're going to the home now. I'm fine. Yeah, yeah, but pretty soon, you're not going to be that. - I know where this heads. - I know, and every time that friend is messy, her reputation is like, it's such an act of love to be like, no, this shot is, no, no, no, no. And you might even say that friend, I need to go home. Will you take me home? Right, just to stop the cycle. Same thing. We have to learn, and it's not rocket science. If you watch your kid play, who can bite or hit? You'll see it. You see, they get this look in their eye. You'll notice, oh, and that is the point and you worry you're being too strict. That's just self-doubt. That is the point. It's like knowing there's huge turbulence coming. That's when the pilot says, you know what? We're going to change altitude, 'cause they know. So that's number one. Number two, if it happens, action. Not feelings first, but bad behavior action. I pick, remove it. Stop hiding, wait, no, just done. It's like if a kid was running into the New York City streets, you're not going to say, if you run into the street again, no dessert tonight, that would be so weird. You're just picking your kid up. - Yeah. - Pick your kid up. Then your kid needs time with you alone. Then they really do, because if they're biting, they are so dysregulated. They are in an animalistic state. You take that kid out of the plate. If this is a play date room, I'm taking my kid into your bathroom and I'm closing the door. Kids need that visual of a small space because they feel like they're spilling all over. They really need that containment. I'm not saying much. - Mm-hmm. - I'm here. I'm stopping my kid from biting me if they're trying. Just I'm here. And then honestly, if they're really out of control, I might just leave the play date. Like, sorry is the least of my concerns then. - Mm-hmm. - But going back to, let's say my kid is older, they're not two, I don't know if it's two year olds, like really saying sorry, they hit so much better than forcing a sorry. 'Cause maybe I've tried, hey, she was upset. She was using that thing. Is there anything you want to say to her? And let's say my kid is just clamming down, clamming down. Kids do that not because they're cold-hearted. It's because they feel shameful. They don't even want to face what they did, which is why they don't want to say sorry. Like, I don't know if you guys ever have trouble saying sorry to each other. If you don't have a lot to do, yeah, never, never have had any issues. - I mean, Matt has troubles, but I believe in about it. (laughs) When we all don't want to say sorry, like saying sorry involves a willingness to look at this thing you did. Takes a lot of kind of psychological strength. You have to hold on to it. I'm a good person who did this bad thing. Most people have trouble saying sorry. It's not that they don't feel guilty. Like, it actually, the guilt becomes shame and it overwhelms them. So like, saying sorry to you, I don't want to see it. So the best thing to do, and I used to do this with my kids. And it, now I promise you, all three of them are amazing apologizers. As I say, it's hard to find your sorry voice. I'll use it for you. Oh, Tommy, I'm really sorry I bit you. Tommy, I'm really sorry I hit you. That was not okay. I'm sure that hurt. It was hard for me to share. Not an excuse, I'm working on it. And my kid hears it. And that is gonna have such a profoundly more helpful impact on them than all the other things we basically do to try to perform for other parents. Something in there that you said that I really liked was talking about the biting thing. It's talking about how you said it in a very profound way. That was, I'm gonna repeat it as us voicing who our kids are to them. How do you call that? Yes, that we are our kids mirror. We're our kids mirror, okay. And so, I've heard it said before, like you said, like basically saying like you're always biting. I see this compared to like kids behavior in social settings and parents saying like the words, like they're pretty shy. And so I wasn't you that said, like don't call your kids shy. I mean, I, I probably have said that other people might have said that too. I'm feeling used to because then that's how they're believing themselves to be. And then that's only happening more and more. What are other practical examples for parents of young kids where you being their mirror is especially important? I mean, I think anytime we reduce our kid to one thing, they miss out. Even when we reduce them to something positive, you're so smart, right? It tends to feel like a lot of pressure, which oddly enough tends to really limit the range of situations they're willing to put themselves in. So it'll even take smart, right? And I'll say what I might say. I'd like to bring that one up. We learn from Dr. Amin to never tell our kids that they're smart. - Yeah, it slips out sometimes. - Which is his, you know, his ideology is, you tell them they work hard, which, I mean, honestly, I get that. - Yeah. - I get the logic. Now I still tell my kids that they're smart. - Because when I, if they do something, like they fail a test, they're like, but they said I was smart. - Yeah. And usually smart, we say, about a lot of external accomplishments. Like, it gets a good grade. They're the first reader in their class. They, you know, I don't know, can do addition before other kids. So they're these external things. And then we use those to say, like, this thing outside of you is who you are. That's, that's a, ends up being a very fragile way to build your sense of self, no matter what the word is. The idea that something on the outside, like my accomplishments on the outside are what give me data about my value on the inside. - That's so good. - And the reason I say it narrows the range is because I've seen this so many times. And again, I don't wanna go crazy. Like, people think these certain words would be like, stricken from their vocabulary. I'm never supposed to say, be careful. Like, it's fine. Like, it's just like general patterns. You can say smart, like it's okay. But think about the kid who is always the first to read and the best at math, okay? Oh, they're so smart. You're the smartest kid in the grade. Okay, now let's say, however old they are. And they're saying, hey, there's some bonus math problems to try. That kid's like, what if I get those wrong? Like, I'm not the kid who gets things wrong. I'm the kid who's smart. I always get everything right. Maybe they won't do that. Oh, all of a sudden, there's a debate team offered in seventh grade, but some kids started in sixth and I didn't start. So definitely if I go in, I'm not gonna be one of the best. And so, you know what? I'm not gonna do that one. Like the idea, confidence to me, true confidence, is feeling like it's okay to be you in the widest range of situations. You're willing to be a beginner. So I think a lot of this focus on growth mindset and kind of, you worked hard or even like, one of my, I love saying to my kids, and I don't know if you already say this. It's such a just beautiful thing to say. It's such a good question. That's such a smart question. So because it's the idea of like, there's something going on inside of you, the way that your mind is working is so smart. That's not fragile. I'm then becoming kind of older thinking, the way my mind works is like really unique or interesting. I can bring that to debate even if I'm a beginner. I can try out for the play even if I don't get it. That's kind of inside of my control. It's not so measured. And so, you're so smart or yet, even you're so shy. It's problematic for other reasons too. I always think about the shy kids. It always cracks me up. if the kid who won't join gymnastics class. Like all the kids are training and I've done this too. I'm not above it, like embarrassing me, like all our friends are joining, 'cause I just want to talk to my friends. You know, I don't want a kid clinging to me. Like why is my kid so shy? Like maybe you have the confident kid. Think about how we define confidence when kids are older. It's the kid who can notice what all the other kids are doing. All the other kids who are saying something nasty on the group text and it's the one kid who says, that's not funny, that's not okay. Mom, I need help figuring this out. This is not okay. It's literally the kid who's 16, who notices what all their friends are doing and seem okay with. And they are the one kid who can hear a different voice. And yet when our kids are four, we try to make them distrust that voice. Nope, go join. And then we expect them to resist to your pressure. Maybe your kids watching everyone else join and I don't really mean this, okay, but it's fun to see it in extreme. Like all those kids are sheep. They're just sheep following along and I have the one kid who kind of trusts their own, intuition in a moment, right? And so I think there are also all these unintended consequences of these very narrow labels. And we miss the opportunity to help our kid be so many different things and have true confidence. I love that so much. Like the thought of confidence as like trusting yourself rather than like, I don't know, 'cause when you think of someone that's confidence, like someone that's willing to do something different. Yup, and not necessarily like, 'cause I think of that as like a confidence builder, like sure it is a confidence builder, like get first place or do all those things. But when I think of a confident person, I'm thinking of someone that's doing, like you said, continuing to do it, even if they might fail. Like they're taking a risk. They're a beginner maybe. And I know this might sound like a hot take. Really? 100% and I used to always say one of my kids had so much come naturally to him. He was a really early reader. Like doing math stuff and I was like, I'm sorry, are you doing ratios? Like, I know that doesn't even come for me. Like really good. That was the kid I was always worried about. 'Cause those kids get so much external validation. The kids who early on, one of my kids had to be in speech therapy when young, really had to work hard for so many different things. I know that kid, that's confidence. Because you have to figure out how to feel good about yourself in the absence of the world showering here with praise. - That's good. - Wow, that's a good one. - And so my ideas around confidence really crystallize actually at Duke when my freshman seminar, there was this girl who was so smart, like just said all the things, like the rest of us thought we were smart. Turns out like you're just, she had something special. It was just true. All fine. And there was this moment in the seminar where I had no idea what the teacher was saying. No idea, professor. But I looked around. Everyone's like taking notes. I was like, all right, I don't know. Maybe it's not important. Maybe understand, it's fine. Sure enough, a minute or two later, this girl puts her hand up, okay? And she just goes, there's a small group. She's sorry, sorry for this annoying to everyone and sorry if you all get this. But professor, I usually understand what you're saying. And honestly, for the last couple of minutes, I couldn't follow it all. And it feels like it's important. Is there any way you could state it again? I'll never forget this moment. I was like, that girl's confidence. Confidence isn't trying to make yourself feel good. Confidence is trusting yourself even when you don't feel good. I was trying to make myself feel good. I was actually using everyone else. They said, okay, maybe it's fine. We hope, okay, right? And she, clearly, and I don't know what was going on inside her, but must have been able to hold on to the idea, I am a smart person inside, even when I'm confused. I am confused and I trust that confusion enough to say something, even when no one else seems to be confirming that. So that idea that confidence itself trust has totally changed my ideas about confidence and the way I interact with my own kids. That's amazing. So I want to ask you about what you would have done in this situation, something happened actually yesterday at the park with our boys, which broke my heart. It was like, it was so hard watching them be sad and devastated and they felt alone. Basically, long story short, we have a three and four year old and in a newborn, but our three and four year old, they're like twins, they do everything together. And they, like other little boys were looking up to these like seven year olds that were playing and they were the older, cool kids and they wanted to play with them. And so it was really cute watching them follow the older boys around the park. But then after a while, the older boys didn't want my boys to play with them anymore. And so rather than, I don't know, saying something, like explaining to my sons that they just wanted to have, you know, just be separate from them. They ended up saying, let's run away. Let's get away from these kids. - They like had a game like leave, like yeah. - So first, well, actually, I'm sorry, that actually wasn't what happened initially. Initially, they decided, oh, let's go climb a tree. That's like a hundred feet away from the park. But then my boys followed them. 'Cause they just, I mean, they looked up to them. They think they're so cool. And then they ran away. And that's when my boys got really sad. And I just wanna know, what would you do in that situation? 'Cause my, here, my kids are like so distraught that basically these older boys told them they didn't wanna be their friend. - Yeah. - How do you, how would you handle that? And then I wanna see if I did it right. - Yeah, okay. So whenever someone asks me this, I just wanna be clear. Right now I'm Dr. Becky, on a podcast with you without my children. So I'm gonna tell you how that person would answer it. What I'd actually do in the moment, I don't know. Some percentage of the time, I would do it, I'm gonna say. - Yeah, yeah. - But here's how I'd think about it. Again, 'cause I think that we always ask, what do I do? It's the wrong first question. That's like someone saying, what should the eighth floor of the building be? Like, what's the foundation of the building, right? So what's going on? Again, like, what's really going on? Your kids, tell me if this is right. I'm just gonna check in with you. My boys were playing with older kids. Like, that's awesome. Those kids were being nice to them at first. And like, they were having some type of fun game together. My kids probably felt really special to be included. And I don't know, it's just like a good feeling as a three and a four year old. And then maybe out of nowhere, 'cause it wasn't named, like all of a sudden, they couldn't play with them or they were like on the outs. And almost literally, it sounds like they couldn't reach these kids that had delivered so many good feelings to them. - Yeah, I mean, yeah, these older boys ended up going to a different park super far away, crossed a busy street. 'Cause like, you guys can't cross the street. And then my youngest was like, well, I can ride my scooter over to them 'cause I want them to be my friend. - Yeah, so the reason I want to go through that, and I don't know if, like, I hear myself say that, feeling sad makes sense. There's no other way. I don't say there's no right way to feel, but hearing that, like, it makes perfect sense why you'd be sad, why you'd want to figure out another solution, why you'd rack your brain, like, what if we did this, what if we did this? By the way, maybe you're mad because again, mad means I'm not getting something I want. Like, I want that, like, all of those feelings make sense. I'm a big believer that we want to help our kids learn to feel and manage all the feelings that make sense. Not morph the feelings, not quickly cover them up until, like, at least you got to play with them, at least not in the moment, and not give them, like, an exit ramp. - Why is that damaging to say, well, at least, at least you guys have each other? - I mean, I just think first of all, it doesn't speak to someone's experience in the moment. It makes someone a little mistrust themselves, and in a way that really backfires, it makes you even more scared of your feelings the next time they come up. So now, I'm like, yeah, I'm kind of sad. And I'm supposed to feel grateful. So, I guess time that the next time sad comes up, my body's gonna be like, wait, no, no, no, you're not supposed to feel this way. That's a bad feeling, you're supposed to feel grateful. It actually makes the first feeling bigger. It's like, totally counterproductive. I think about feelings as passengers in a car. A lot of transportation metaphors, you guys, okay? So if it's a passenger in your car, you are the driver. The only time's feelings give us problems. Only time is when they take over the driver's seat. - That's a problem, because we don't make good decisions. But we spent a ton of our energy credits trying to get them out of the car. We're trying to get them out, or I only wanna have gratitude and happiness in the car. In my experience as a clinical psychologist, and maybe someone will prove me wrong, no one in history has ever been successful at getting feelings out of the car. Feelings are information. They're actually, I don't know if everyone said that too, that's how I think about it. It's kind of like a CEO saying, hey, everyone, only come to my office with good news, okay? I'm like, that's, they're gonna have a really hard time making good decisions. So the information, I think your boys are getting, is I'm upset when I have something and it's taken away from me. And again, the reason that sadness, if it's on this, is adaptive. And I know when I hear parents say, it breaks my heart, this sounds weird. I don't think you should feel good in that moment. It's so hard when your kids are upset. But the reason it might not break your heart that your kids sad, is like, if your son is married one day and his partner just like vanishes, like I think you would be disturbed if he's like, we had 20 great years. Should be grateful for that. - Should be grateful for that. (laughing) - You know, he'd be like, what? Okay, I guess we're going with that. - Like, did you murder your spouse? - No, literally, you're like, something's wrong. - Is this going to end up on date? - Yeah, she just left me for my best friend. Like, you're not mad? Is that how little you think? Like, at least we had those years. Like, we had those kids. Like, it would be so bizarre. Now, you know what I don't want my kid to do then? Act out, like, yeah, she's a, whatever. Name calling, right? - Yeah. - But like, the best case scenario. Okay, in that ridiculous situation, it's like, what the heck? How did that happen? that happen, I'm so upset. My life just turned upside down and like, I just need you to talk to me about it and be here. So it's actually interesting. I just heard myself say it. When our kids are upset and they're not hitting, it sounds like they need you to be there. You can imagine they're sitting on a bench of sadness. They don't need you to pull them off. They don't need you to convince them why their bench should be magically turned into gratitude. They just kind of need to like plop nearby, which could mean saying because sometimes it literally means saying nothing. It's just like, "Oh, buddy." And then you're just like, "Wait." Or again, I know a broken record, "Oh, you wish you could go across the road." Or narrating a kid's story is really helpful. And it's kind of what I said to you. I didn't mean to, but let me see if I got this right because I'm a kid who'll stop talking. Let me see if I got this right. You're playing with them. You guys are even in the sandbox. Those seven or eight-year-olds don't usually go in that they're in the sandbox with you. And it was more fun than it was when you were your brother. So much fun. And maybe at that point you were thinking about other things than all of a sudden, out of nowhere, run up a tree. Is that what happened? And the kid will usually say even a three. And then this is what I want a parent to know. If something like that happens, you've done your job. Our job, we're not doing a good job when we help our kids with their feelings by measuring that as them shutting off their feelings. Like, I don't know. This is a classic husband-wife dynamic. I might not be yours, but where a wife is like, "Hey, when I'm upset, I just want you to like listen to me. Stop giving me solutions. Just listen." So let's say a couple's working on that. And I'm like, really upset. I wasn't invited to something that my friends, I feel like my friends don't like me. And my husband next to me is like, "Oh, that stinks. Got it. Am I good? He's doing it." And then he looks at me. He's like, "I did the thing you should stop being upset now." Like, do you know how mad I would be? I'm like, "I'm sorry. Yeah, I want you to do the thing, but like I'm not." My job isn't to reward you by like my, "Yeah, you're helping me even though I'm still upset because now I don't feel alone." And so again, I think all of that applies to kids. It's not their feelings. It's like feeling alone in it. And so if you're thinking, "How do I just make them feel less alone?" It doesn't mean I've to let them talk forever. But that's like a really worthy goal. So tell me what you did and then we'll, and then we're going to tear you apart. What did you do? Okay, so yeah, initially the kids went to the tree. My boys followed them. Yeah. Then when they ran away the first time, I followed them to the road. I'm like, "I literally had a sprint after them." And I'm like, "Does this look weird that I'm this dad chasing down these random seven-year-olds? If their parents are somewhere near, I'm like, "What are they thinking?" Anyway. But I had to tell my boys, "Hey guys, we're not going to the park. We're staying at this park. It's not safe for us to cross the road without Mom or Dad." And so I picked them up while these boys are running away. And they're just, "I broke my heart. They were so sad." And then I said to them, "Are you guys sad?" And they're like, "Yeah." And they're like at the brink of tears at this point. And I say, "What happened?" And they said, "Those kids ran away from us." And then I can just like visually see it on his face. He's like, "Wait, I could ride my scooter over there so that they'll be my friend." And I'm like, "Oh, why do you think that's. " I'm kind of like asking for questions to kind of like help them walk through all of that. And essentially what we landed is like, "Oh yeah. If I keep chasing them eventually, they're going to accept me." And I kind of had that uncomfortable conversation of, "Hey, sometimes people. " I think what I ended up telling them is, "Hey, I don't think those boys are wanting to do their own thing, but it wasn't very kind of them to not explain that to you guys." It wasn't kind of them to run away and make a game out of leaving you and abandoning you. And so what ended up happening, this was the funny part. So we end up climbing a tree together. I'm teaching my kids how to climb a tree after all this. I'm like, "We got to do something fun." And these boys ended coming back to the park. And. And now you're the old kid they want to play with. No, not that, but it happens again where they say, "Oh, it's the little kids. Let's run away." And, but it was like literally right in front of me. So I'm like, "I have to say something." But I didn't want to be. I didn't want to be this overbearing parent. I didn't want to. I didn't want to like solve my kids problems for them, but I just told the older boys. I said, "Hey, don't you guys think it would be the right thing to do if you just said that you wanted privacy or wanted to play on your own?" Yeah. I don't think running away is like the kindest thing to do. It's just what I said. Meanwhile, like at this point, their parents are like also not too far away. But I'm just like, I feel like I got to say something and their parents had no idea what happened earlier. Look, I don't really think about myself as like grading anyone, but in the interest of play, like A+ across the board, like your kids are upset. And essentially, what you said is like, that makes sense. Like, yeah, it makes sense that they're upset. What was crazy, though, is I did have the instinct of being like, "Well, look at the bright side." I felt this urge of not wanting to acknowledge the pain because it made me sad, but that wasn't going to help them. And I also had just listened to you on a podcast for like two hours, so I think that probably helped. We were in it. Matt's like giving me a play by playing. He's like, "I think I'm going to try some things that Dr. Beckley says." I was like, "Great work." I mean, that's, look, I mean, you mentioned yourself that you're like, you like to optimize kind of, right? And so there's something we've conflated as, but most people who like to optimize, it's like comfortable feelings are optimal and uncomfortable feelings are meant to be worked out of as quickly as possible to get back to optimal. And I feel that, and there's a quote, I wrote it down right here. It's a quote, you've said, "You can't manage a feeling you believe you're not supposed to have." And that was just like, "Oh my gosh." Because he's working on it. Yeah. I don't know. There are certain feelings that I don't want to have. And I don't, you know, like, so I don't know. I guess I feel like as the parent, my job, rather than trying to optimize for happiness, is to optimize, what am I optimizing for? Safety. I'm making them safe, but helping them learn to work through their feelings. That way, they have the skills, optimize for skills. I love optimize for skills. And in doing that, you're optimizing for resilience because your kid, like, obviously, this made up situation of being married for 20 years. Someone leaves. I don't think that's going to happen. But like, I don't know if they're going to get the job they want. I'm sure they're going to get closed out of a class. I'm sure they're going to get a bad grade. They're going to be left out a million times. And nobody gets through those situations well by saying no biggie. They get through well because on some level, they they've had a lot of years with parents who were less afraid of those feelings than they were. And who again, it's not about collapsing into the feelings. I don't think a parent should say, oh, those boys left you. Oh, we're so sad. But no, I'm saying, just don't want to do that. But just make sense. You're sad. And then at some point, hey, what do you want to do next? And then you guys basically did that. So let the feeling be there. You can still have agency and take action. And that's raising a resilient kid, which is definitely better than raising a kid who only feels like they're kind of okay when things are happy. That's amazing. Yeah. Can I just ask a totally random question? Please. Have you ever seen Daniel Tiger? Uh, obviously. Okay. So you approve of Daniel Tiger as Dr. Becky. Daniel Tiger is amazing. I mean, you know, it's actually interesting. I think as a parent, I'm a firmer than Daniel Tiger's parents. I like that. I like that. And I think that, you can be firm and warm at the same time. The best, again, the best pilots are, the best leaders are, the best CEOs are. And I think the best sports coaches, like they, you know, I think about, you know, football coaches who after a bad loss, they wait for their players at the locker room and they still give them a high five. I don't know what they're saying inside. I'm not inside the locker room, but it's, hey, I see the good in you. It wasn't great on the field today. We're going to get back at it. We're going to keep working. And there can be firmness and warmth and belief in a kid's goodness all at the same time. I like firm and warm. Yes. And that means sturdy. Yes. Together. Can I ask a personal question? Yeah. What was the clip that your husband sent you that he, he said, you said you a clip of something that he wanted you to learn from that you said all the time, all the time. Mostly, I mean, I think my biggest thing that I talk about is sitting with feelings and that your kids have feelings sit with them. Like you don't need to fix them. You don't need to take action right away. This is definitely true for me, but I've learned from so many people I've been looking to meet and true for most people. Anyone who seems like an expert in their field is just actively working out their own issues in public. Like they don't talk about things because they figured them out. They're talking about those topics because they're trying to figure out and it's hard for them. I love that. It's very hard for me. So, you know, my husband will do that all the time and he'll be like, oh, when your kid's upset, like you don't need to tell them it's all going to be okay, right? You can just sit with them, right? And so I think that's one of the things he joke about and the other thing we joke about all the time because going along term greediness, like I do think about parenting and results kind of similar to swimming. Like we spend a lot of time in money teaching our kids to swim. And what's always interesting to me is I've never heard a parent after two months say, these swim lessons aren't working. They're not working. You kind of have this built-in knowledge that you're going to put in a lot of time and effort to swim and it's just going to I don't know how long it takes, but it takes like a bunch of years, right? And it's really easy with kids when you're working on something to just go into like this isn't working because they're not listening right away, right? But I was like, well, I don't know who's listening right away and that takes time, right? And so I think, you know, the other thing my husband and I say all the time when we're frustrated with our kid is just like, stop Dr. Becky Woman, doesn't know what she's talking about. Doesn't know what she's talking about. There has to be an easier way 'cause it's so much easier to just send your kid to their room or-- - Yeah. - Well, punishment, it's easier. I don't think it's effective. But all that to say, like me and my real life, there's no parent who has it all together. All the things I talk about, like I have to work so hard to do. So hard, so hard and talk to my team and talk to my therapist and talk to my husband. And it's just, it's hard, long term investing work. - So you're the first to admit that Dr. Becky is not a perfect parent. - No. - And so when you do mess up-- - Yes. - Can we touch on revisions before we-- - We have some fun? - Repair. - Not revisions. - Repair. - Yeah, how do you repair? - Before we do it, we have some fun questions too. - We do have some rapid-fire-reparencing questions. - Rapid-fire. - But this one I wanna talk about. - I wanna talk about how to repair. Okay, I think if parents take anything from this episode, it should be this section on repair. There is no such thing as a perfect parent. And if the model of a relationship you have with your kid is the model they expect in adulthood, none of us want our kids going into adulthood, thinking like where is my partner who's gonna get it right all the time and is gonna always become and never have their own agenda, that's not a thing. Okay, so it wouldn't even be good. Repair is the act of going back to a moment that didn't feel good. Kind of taking responsibility and stating what you would do differently so you can kind of tell a different story about what happened. So, classic example, I yell at my kid. Now I hear you and we can get to it. It's very easy to justify in my head while I wouldn't have yelled at my kid if they just listened the first time, right? The truth is I might not have felt frustrated if they listened the first time, but my yelling, that comes from my struggle to manage my frustration. And I think that's really important to say, sure, I wouldn't have felt frustrated, but frustration leading to yelling that that comes down to my own coping skills. And I'm the adult, I always like to remind myself that 'cause me too, I'm like, she has to apologize to me. I say, she has to apologize to me. That's when she's like, all right, Becky, let me tell you about this woman. Like, let me also remind you, you're in your 40s. Like, she says so, you know, just a quick little new splash. And so, repair would look like going to my daughter, son, say, I'm sorry, I yelled. That wasn't okay, I'm sure that felt bad. And, you know, even when I'm frustrated, I'm working on speaking to you respectfully. I don't know something like that. Saying quick, sorry. You know, I'm sorry for yelling, I'm sorry for blaming you and I didn't even hear your side of the story. I wish I had done this. And then, not stop talking. Now, the thing I want to say is, I'm sorry you felt that way, is not a repair. I'm sorry I yelled, but if you put on your shoes the first time I asked you, is not a repair. And the reason repair is so important is 'cause when we do yell at our kids and we yell do, it's very scary for a kid. And it's not just scary 'cause yelling is scary, but the idea that again, my parent is the person I need for safety. So what happens when the person I need for safety becomes the scary person? Like, that really can save for a kid, for fear to come from the same person who keeps them safe. That's just a lot for a kid's body to handle. And so they've already stored the moment, even if we don't talk about it. If we don't repair, kind of they're alone, they're like, how do I make sense of this? To like move on. And what most kids do, if we don't repair, is they display in themselves. Because there's this great Fairburn quote that I always come back to, which he wrote many, many centuries or decades ago, for kids it's better to be a sinner in a world ruled by God than to live in a world ruled by the devil, meaning for a kid who needs their parent and how he needs to believe the world is safe. Something scary happens. It actually feels better to them. Such a bad kid, bad person, bad. Then at least I can believe like my parents and my world are safe. And if you think about how many of us, even today, when anything goes wrong, things are so not even our fault, our default, especially women. That's wrong with me, something wrong with me. I did this, right? It's like we take in fault to try to get control. That pattern starts so many years ago. And so one of the reasons I repair with my kid is our relationship is stronger. They're honestly more likely to listen that night because their relationship feels better, right? Which is the same in adulthood. If you and your husband are fighting and you feel like he owes you an apology, and then he doesn't, the next day he asked you to pick up for something at the store, like, you know what? You're like, oh, I forgot. You're just not gonna cooperate 'cause it still is in your body. But also every time you repair, you stop your kid from that awful cycle of self blame, which is so toxic and actually demoralizing. And so if parents do anything, find your kid, repair, my rule is wait 24 hours to say the thing I know you want to say. You want to talk to your kid about how they didn't put on their shoes. Do not do that within 24 hours. And when you do, make it separate. Hey, I notice it's something's going on. You're not putting on your shoes in the morning. What can we do about that? But don't, don't, not like when mommy yelled at you for not putting on your shoes. It was wrong for you to know. That's right because think about, again, I always fast forward. Like think about your son and you're at his house and he's married one day and I don't know who he's with and making it up his wife. I don't know, is in the kitchen and you hear him yell at her for not getting the paper towels like she said. And then you hear him say, look, I'm really sorry I yelled at you, but if you had just remembered the paper towels, I wouldn't have yelled. Like, I don't know, I'd be so creeped out. I was like, that is a toxic thing to say. But if that's the way I model repair, I'm sorry I did this, but if you had just done this correctly, it wouldn't have happened, I should be 0% surprise that that's how my kid talks to other people. That's good. I like that because I feel like sometimes parents can perceive apologizing or making a repair with their child as like lowering your authority. I know. And it goes back to this, like whatever we've absorbed about authority, you know, where it feels like you're giving away your authority. I think, you know, a good inside, like whenever I describe the good inside method, it's like firm and warm. But the two phrases that come to mind are authority without aggression and connection without collapse, right? And the thing about authority without aggression is I think so many of us had authorities in our life where it was all based on fear. And I guess an authority based on fear, repair would undermine your authority, right? Because everything's just based on fear. That is so toxic for your kid to learn that fear and love should happen in the same person. Again, that's then the kind of relationships they seek out. I agree. So if your authority isn't based on aggression but is based on sturdiness and the sense of yourself and your values and you know that about yourself and that type of authority, repair builds more connection and trust that actually increases your influence. So many of those things like related to authority actually are in our agreed-to-disagree compliment and connection, okay? There's one about connection, can I go right into it? - I wanna go right into it, but I did wanna just say, like, we're not perfect parents. Obviously, you've admitted you're not a perfect parent either. And something that I want to be better about is if we disagree, argue, whatever in front of the kids, how do we effectively show them repair and demonstrate, repair for them and model that? - So beautiful. So first of all, it's really validating to kids. And if you wanna build your kids' confidence, especially when they hear you argue, I'm gonna share a sentence that I think is also really healing to our inner child, which is, you were right to notice that. You heard us arguing before, we were using loud voices. You were right to notice that. So before you even repair with each other, that's so helpful for a kid 'cause most of the times when parents fight, like they hear it and they're kinda like that, doesn't sound great. And then the next day, like the next minute, no one mentions it and they're like, what's happening? You know, it's really confusing. That's not good for kids, right? So that's step one. So two, just yeah, them seeing you repair with each other. Hey, I used, you know, my voice was really loud. Hey, that got hotter than I wanted it to. I think a really simple phrase to say in front of your kids or to your kids, like at the simplest repair is just, hold on, can I try that again? Just like, it doesn't, I'm sorry, it could just be, whoa, sorry, can I try that again, right? So for your kids to see you guys talking and when he was like, hold on a second, that came out sharp. Can I try that again? What I meant to say is, you know, whatever the thing is, your kids are picking up on the rules of relationships just by watching that. So saying that, saying, hey, I'm sorry I yelled before. Look, this is so important. It doesn't have to be, I'm sorry I yelled all good. What's more helpful to a kid is more realistic. Hey, I'm sorry I yelled. Look, I'm still frustrated that, you know, I don't know, we can't agree on who's doing the laundry whatever it is. But I know even when I'm frustrated, it's my job to speak to you respectfully. Because we want kids to learn, especially in marriage. Like marriage isn't all good feelings all the time. Marriage isn't, I love you so much. I'm never frustrated with you. Like, show me that marriage. I'll show you a liar, I don't know, or people who don't ever talk to each other, right? Like marriage is, I'm even more dedicated to managing my emotions with you. Because I love you, but I still have all them. - But what happens if you have a kid that's taking, now picking a side, like, you know, I think that can get messy if you're having a disagreement. And then one of your kids is taking dad's side or mom's side. And then you're like, whoa, whoa, this is getting really weird. - Exactly. - Well, what do you say to your kid? What's like the general rule that parents should approach that, because it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, it's just like, now we're getting the kids involved. - Oh my goodness. And you don't want that, and that's horrible for everyone. - Yeah. - Right, exactly. So I think I would just try to shut that down, right? So if that's happening, oh yeah, mom's right, you're always yelling, whatever I'm just saying, whatever it is. And I think what's really powerful is for the parent who's being defended to do the intervention, right? Because then it's really clear, like, hey, this is between us. I'll talk to you later about it, but we don't need any input. We don't need any votes, right? And then it's also just to sign, like, hey, we're gonna stop talking about this. And like every couple, in general, definitely you have a kid. You need some word, banana, Florida, whatever it is. It's like, when that word is said, it doesn't matter if the other person thinks they have the ones overreacting, conversation is, oh, for now, right, over. Because it's really hard to resolve something when your kids are around. They get, and part of the reason they take sides, they're trying to feel safe. They're like, who do I align with? And that makes, yeah, so I would just shut it down. That's good. I like that. Yeah. It's really good. And you can also get going to, what do we do in the moment, as a way of thinking? Okay, so we can do that in the moment, but there's something we can do after the moment. At any point, to say to your kid, look, sometimes you see a moment I argue. It's okay for you to know, and even the best marriages, people argue, but it's really important to learn to argue respectfully. And if we ever start arguing in front of you, we're gonna try to stop, but I just wanna be clear if there's no sides. We don't need you to say who's right. We don't want you to. That's between us, and we are totally capable of dealing with it. And so we're not gonna do that anymore. That's probably gonna be even more effective than anything you try to do in the heat of the moment when everyone's body is kind of activated. Now we wanna go ahead and play a little agree, or disagree. Wait, there's one I really wanna agree. Okay. Arvacent excited. Rapid fire, agree or disagree. Agree or disagree, kids should be allowed to quit activities they hate. Or are you acting the way you're acting? Because I, because I, this can't be rapid fire. So new ones. No, because this is like a new one's question like yes and. Yes and? Yeah, agree and. But my parents always told me you couldn't quit. You have to finish it out. You have to stick to your commitments. You have to know your kid. If you're like every time my kid tries something and they're not the star, they quit. Let's just say that. Let's just say that. That's not a great pattern. Okay. Now if you're saying, yeah, that's so not my kid and my kid doesn't really like baseball, right? Then that's different. You don't love quitting in the middle of the season. Like I personally think you, there's something to finishing something. And I think again, the long-term view is sometimes in adulthood, you have to finish things. You don't want to finish. But there's also a lesson in sometimes you're in a situation that's toxic. Sometimes you have a coach who's being abusive to you. I don't know what the details are. And in that case, it's more adapted to be like, you know what? We're going to stop. So get more information. Know your kid. Make the decision from there. That was good. I come from a family where I was allowed to quit a couple of days. But it wasn't a pattern. This one said, okay, this is one I want to ask you because we've talked a lot about kid's feelings. Yeah. Time out parents feelings. Agree or disagree. Parents should never cry in front of their kid. Disagree. I think there's something, a kernel here that's been misunderstood. Kids notice everything in their environment. Their expert perceivers of their environment, because again, evolution really determines that they are because they're so helpless, they have to notice everything. They notice you crying. They notice when you skip a word in their book, right? They notice everything. Their eyesight is at your belly. They probably notice your pregnant way before you think that's how they see you, right? So the worst thing for kids isn't noticing a parent crying. What's hard for kids is when they notice a parent crying and nobody talks about it or the parent makes up a clearly bogus story. So in the corner, you see your mom crying and, you know, whatever her name is, cancer and kids like, I don't know, dying, and then you're like, hey, yeah, I'm good. That's bizarre and very disconcerting. It's not the crying that was bad for a kid to see. It's the crying and not giving them a story to actually understand it. That's bad for them. That's good. We are disagree. There's an age where it's too young to talk to your kids about death. I just made that one up on my own. That was on the sheet. I found you. No. Disagree. No, that doesn't mean everyone's like, okay, I'm going to go to my six-month-old baby. You shouldn't go to your. You're like, hey, I want to talk to you about death. There's never two early to start. But again, kids are expert perceivers of their environment, okay? And so if somebody dies in the family and everyone's crying and they're never seeing grandma again, what we do to avoid the truth is usually far more damaging to a kid than telling the truth. Truthful information, told from a loving adult, actually makes people feel secure in the world. And so when we say, oh, grandma, I wanted a trip. Grandma is sleeping. I can't even tell you the number of people in my practice where their kids are so weird. They can't sleep a week before we go to Florida. Yeah, because grandma went on a trip. You never saw grandma again. Now they're terrified of trips. Like, grandma's sleeping. Is it weird that my kid's not sleeping? No, because they think sleeping is essentially death and disappearing because of this weird story we've made of. Totally predictable. That's funny. And they already know death. They know that aunt died. Like. Yeah. So death is when the body stops working. I think that's something I want you to have in their back pocket. That's what we say. Perfect. Yeah. And if someone has another definition they like, that's perfect too. And there are always ways to share truthful information, especially when it's happening in the environment. Do I think you have to sit down a three-year-old, be like, by the way, randomly, let me tell you what death is. No, but I wouldn't suggest doing that about, I don't know, let me tell you what a recession is either. It's just like a very out of context and weird. It's just where we have context. Yeah. Our started with the dinosaurs. That was the first time I was like, they are, they are actually dead. Like we use the word dead. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And can I say one more thing about death? Yes. Because it's usually actually around the age of three that kids start to be curious about death. And it's actually the same age they start to be curious about their body parts and using real words. Okay. And if you think about those two things together, it actually makes sense developmentally, like birth and death are just the bookends of life. Yeah. And around three, when a kid is having a little more understanding of the world, it makes sense because their egocentric is like, how did I come into the world and how do people go out of the world, right? And we have all these connotations, but they're just trying to figure out how the world works. And I'll never forget my son, my oldest, because I was pregnant. So it wasn't even three. Okay. And I'll never get. It was kind of out of nowhere because a thoughtful kid and we don't really talk about the things that come up in the world again. And it looks at me and he just goes, you could die at any moment, couldn't you? Okay. I was like, oh, okay. I thought we were about to go to the park. Yeah. That's not, you know. It happens that really bizarre time. I was just like, yeah. Right. And I know I'm younger than you. You could die before me. She's like, you know, and I was just like, yeah. And there is a line I like, it's just a good one to have in your back pocket. And I was like, you're a kid with a really busy brain. I think you think a lot of things and I'm so glad you asked me that. And it's so interesting. I kind of thought it would be like, oh, there goes the park kind of sat with it. And I swear, I don't know if it was 30 seconds later, maybe it was like eight and it's like, all right. Let's go. Yeah. Okay. Okay. What just happened? Like, sometimes these things to kids, we have such a fear about how it's going to dysregulate them. The things that really dysregulate kids and adults and that really keep us spinning are things that are really confusing to us where you have an inkling of something and no one is giving you clarity. We all tend to find comfort and clarity more than feeling good. We like clarity because when you have clarity, you're like, okay, that's what that is. Now, there were many more conversations, but and that was my son and he was a particular kind of toddler, but it's always made me realize I bet a lot of two and three year olds are wondering about, might have the language or might not say it, but it's on their mind. Yeah. That's really good. Okay. Of course, you're a child parenting. That's your thing. That's your expertise. But you also seem to really prioritize marriage. So I'm curious how you're going to answer this agree to disagree. It says agree or disagree. Your spouse should come before your kids. I think the quality of your marriage, if you're married, is the foundation of your family. And so all these elements matter. The flagpole. Yeah, it's the ground. You know what I mean? Yeah. Again, there's something about your husband or your spouse should come before your kids. It just feels like such a clean order. Like, I don't want to make it like a checklist, but the thing that feels right to answer that is your partner. partnership is the foundation of your home. And I should say, I learn the hard way. And my private practice too often, I used to see parents and not insist that both parents come when they have a consultation with me. And after learning this the hard way, I almost always, I'm like, I really won't see people, if you're raising kids together, I really need you to come to this appointment together. And the reason I learned that the hard way is there were sessions where I talk about kids issue and this and that and that and it'll be months. And finally, I'd have both of the people together. I was like, oh, there is so much conflict here. Like why are we even trying to solve this? Your kid is absorbing all of the stress of this, like explains the behavior. - Let's go to the core instead of playing around. And so that happened so often. And so again, is it a rank order? But sometimes even our kids behavioral issues come from a partnership feeling really awful and it coming out all the time in the house. - This one, I want to call myself out. - Agree or disagree. You should never bribe your kids to behave. - Oh, I mean, I'm actually gonna, I don't want to get the double negative right. You should never bribe your kids to behave, disagree, okay? - Oh good. - Disagree. - We bribe your kids all the time. - Oh good. - They're incentivizing. - They're, like M&M's have an important role in parenting. - Okay, let's go. - I think the problem is like if M&M's are our only strategy or we, and this is just every family, even hearing this to pause and say, hold on. Like, do I still feel good about that? Or do I feel like I'm in a pattern where my kid won't really do anything unless there's a bribe? Because I've seen plenty of those parents where it feels cute and little when our kids are young. But I've seen parents, it's like my 15 year old looks at me and it's like, you want me to clean my room? How much are you paying me? - No. - And I know we all hear that and we're like, oh my goodness, cringe. But if the only way to get good behavior has been to bribe your kids along the way, we shouldn't be surprised at a 15 year old. Is that something like that to us? So I think it's something to use here and there. You know, when you need it, but I think we just have to ask ourselves, if that's the primary thing I'm doing, I'm probably not really building skills that last. I might be locking myself into a pattern that seems fine now, but is going to backfire big time. And is there a little bit of a reset where I say, this isn't my bag pocket. We all need those moments. And is there something else that's actually going to be better for me for the goals I'm trying to achieve? - This so perfectly lends itself to one more. - Okay, do it. - Okay, go for it. - A career disagree. It's okay to say because I said so. - A hundred percent. I think there are key lines from old school parenting that we need to bring back. Now, I do not all of them. Okay, no. And I brought you into this world. Okay, yeah, like we're going to upgrade that one. That one, I'm going to be like keeping the 80s or whatever you guys are going to do that one. Like go to your room all the time, just because I'm like frustrated and it's apparent. Like honestly, I don't know what else to say. No, we can do better than that. Some percent. - I'll give you something to cry about. - Stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. It's like definitely, I think we're not going to bring. And because I said so, I think we can do better than that. Okay, but I think the spirit of that are things like this. I know, we don't like it and the answer is still no. This is one of my favorite ones. I want to tell you about a decision I've made. Not ending with, okay. This is like, okay, okay. No, I want to tell you about a decision. Okay, right, we're going to make an emergency landing. Okay, I'll be like, why are you asking me? I want to tell you about a decision I made. Some decisions are yours, some decisions are ours, some decisions are mine. This one is mine. It's okay if you don't like it, we're still going. And I expect you to have good behavior, get some of your wines out now. I know it's not going to be fun. And when we get in the car, I expect better. Like those types of things said in a family system, which in general, yes, is warm and connecting in all the feelings, not only is it okay to say that, it is critical to say that. Because validating kids' feelings is not a complete parenting strategy, if that's all we're doing. And we're not having some moments. And again, the spirit of because I said so, I think is like, I'm the authority here. So I think because I said so, nobody likes hearing that. So I just, maybe I don't love that line actually 'cause it's just not going to be effective, but the decision has already been made. I'm not changing my mind. I've already decided this. Yes, and I think I can summarize that with like, kids need a voice, but they don't always get a vote. And I think that is what we need to bring back in 2026. That is so good. How do your kids feel about you being a parenting expert? So I really mean this and my kids know this. I don't consider myself a parenting expert. I really don't like the term. I find it like it sounds weird anti-learning. I really love asking questions and figuring things out more than answers. And I find experts like know everything. So they think of me as I'm a psychologist. I have a kind of public figure. It's not a huge focus in our home. I feel like my day-to-day life with my kids. Home for dinner, we're cooking. We're putting stuff in the dishwasher. It's kind of the same as it always is. The thing that's changed is when we're out in public. And my kids kind of react very in line with their temperaments. Like one of my kids is pretty calm. He's like, can I know? I'm proud. He really is like that kind of kind of so proud. I see your first. He's my first, right? And another one of my kids is a little bit like-- who's Dr. Becky? Like, let me tell you who I am. Like, I don't know why you heard Deja, my last. And my middle is just amazing. And it's different now. But when she was younger, she's what I call my deeply feeling kid. And she's so smart. And she's so funny. And I'll never forget when she was younger beating at a hotel. Or obviously, when you're at a hotel, you see the same people over and over. So I had a lot of people coming up to me. And she was just like sick of it. And she just looks at this woman who is like, oh, you've helped me have changed my life. And she goes, I just want to tell you she's a really bad mom in real life. OK, she said it, really like that. I was great for your brand image. But I was honestly, I was purely impressed. I was like, that is amazing. Like, world, watch out. You're timing, you're delivery, you're no reaction after I was like, girl, you know who I don't have to worry about in the world? You. She's a really bad mom in real life. Well, Dr. Becky, thank you so much. I could ask her a million more questions. I'll do it again. We'll do it again, so please. You have an incredible podcast. If you guys haven't checked out her podcast, Good Inside, definitely take a listen. The app. Yes, I have an app to a book. We make everything for all ages. Good inside, it's just, we can only remember something. That makes it simple, though. That's what we need. There we go. Return to the basics. Practical resources, which is great. Because I feel like you've said a lot in these days, it can feel so up in the air, drifty, I don't know. And then yours is very practical, hands on. And I just think your approach probably makes kids feel very safe. Oh, thank you. And that's ultimately the goal. Fantastic. Yes, thank you both. You're awesome. Thank you. You guys will see you in the next episode. And as always, peace. Oh, we're doing that again. Are we so good? I don't know. I don't know.