DP/Operator Nick Mclean Sr.

Speaker 1 On today's amazing show, you're going to hear me say amazing way too many times because I was so excited. Talking to our guest, we're going to talk about The Deer Hunter close Encounters, that famous scene in Marathon Man that everybody talks about working with Alfred Hitchcock and of course, hanging out with Burt Reynolds. Just a little bit of business. Before we start, there may be a curse word here or there in this episode, so please listen responsibly. Make sure to check out our website, the op dot IO, especially the breakdown where operators talk about everything that goes into the making of a shot. And read the musings for discussions about everything from quick tips to larger concepts behind operating. I may or may not take a couple of breaks during this episode, but I promise you none of them will be longer than 22 seconds. Finally, if you are enjoying the podcast, please follow us, like us, talk about us, and share us with your friends. So grab a beverage, sit back, and enjoy the OP. Thanks for listening. Wipe it out nice and quiet and let's roll. Speaker 2 Victor 30 Echo Take 2 camera set. Speaker 1 Backroom in. Speaker 2 Action. Speaker 1 Hello everybody, and welcome back to the OP the podcast where we talk about operating in the art of visual storytelling. I am your host, Dave Comedies and we are actually here today at the the Panavision Woodland Hills Theater, which they have graciously allowed me to use because it sounds better than my bedroom. So today I'm really, really excited because we have an amazing guest, Nick McLean Senior, who was like sort of the operator on everything. I'll just give you a little little rundown of the highlights is just some of the highlights. By the way, Cheech and Chong's next movie, which I just think is hilarious. It is. It's hilarious Being There, the Rose, The Deer Hunter, Heaven Can Wait, close Encounters of the Third Kind, Looking for Mr. Good Bar, Marathon Man, Funny Lady. The list goes on and on. And as an assistant, just because I think this is notable, he was a camera assistant on the Sugarland Express, which of course was Steven Spielberg's first theatrical movie. He'd done some stuff before that, but that was his first movie, so I cannot wait to hear everything he has to say. Nick, thank you so much for being here today. Speaker 2 It's a pleasure. Speaker 1 This is this is like I I'm so excited. I can't wait to ask you tons and tons of questions. You were a camera operator. You were in the business for how many years? Speaker 2 I got in the business 1966. My first day was on the iron horse and then I got I think just one or two days. And then you had to have 30 days to get in the union. And then the next year I got one day and then the following year I got my 30 days. So maybe I got in the union 6/19/69. Speaker 1 Back then how in this so this was this was 659 correct? It was the Las West Coast local, so but how did you get a day if you weren't in the union like there wasn't anybody else available and they called. Speaker 2 You, my stepfather, was a director of photography and he was doing The Iron Horse. He introduced me to some people at Columbia and when everybody was working then you could get on. So I got one day on right. I think I got like 10 days my first year, one day my second year. Speaker 1 So it accrued year to year until you? Speaker 2 Had in the crew, you had to do it in the year. So then I thought I was screwed. Oh, this is an interesting story, Interesting story. I got a friend of mine who I made a a camera operator. Later he had a movie going to somewhere and got me on it and the union didn't check. But in the time there was a Gerald McClain, G McClain, My first name is George. So when the list came out they thought I was I was Gerald McClain. I got my 30 days. I called the union, I said you got to accept me now, and that's how I got in the union. Speaker 1 So I just want to make sure that I have this right, because this same sort of thing happened with John Tell. You're not worried at this point about the union finding out that you got in under under less than honest circumstances. I could care less. I don't want them coming in and dragging you away. Speaker 2 What they told me when I got in the union and I forget the guy's name. Speaker 1 What year was this to you about? Speaker 2 69. Speaker 1 And how old were you? Speaker 2 Well, I'm 82 now, OK? I'm an old man. I. Speaker 1 Would not have. Speaker 2 Guessed that you were either you. It's very nice of you, but when I got in the union, the guy that swore me in said I want you to know nobody have has made so much money knowing so little. I never, I never forget that line. Speaker 1 This is probably what the president of the local. Speaker 2 Time or do you remember who? Jerry Somebody. Speaker 1 Jerry somebody. I'll look it up. That's great, right? I love it. OK, so, so and who is your stepfather? Speaker 2 Fred Jackman Senior, who was a director and a cinematographer. Wow. And his my grandfather was Fred Jackman Senior, who was the 3rd or the 1st president of the ASC. Speaker 1 Wow. Speaker 2 And here's a quick story. The reason I never joined the ASC is because my grandfather was a gambler. He lost the treasury and going to Santa Anita of the ASC. So my stepfather was an ASC member. They kicked him out. Speaker 1 That's not they're not happy about. Speaker 2 That so when they asked me to join probably 10 times, I said it's not good enough for my family. Forget it. So I used to go because I played football at USC. I used to go Nick McClain, not Asci, would go USC, which they didn't like it. Speaker 1 All all right. Well, there you go. So, so tell me how so you got into, that's how you got into the industry correct? And then and then and then. You eventually worked your way up to first day seeing, obviously. Speaker 2 I yeah, I was. I was working at Universal and every every night you go in and check the list or they'd send it out to the set if you were working and tell you which stage to go to the next day, you're, you know, you're like a daily. Speaker 1 Deal. So it was the studio system and you just went where, wow, were you basically employed by the studio? And they just said you go here today, you go there today. Speaker 2 No. Well, I guess I was, yeah, I guess you would say interesting. And then all of a sudden 3 features came out and one was with Hitchcock which I really wanted real bad. And one was in Santa Fe, NM OK and luckily I got the one in Santa Fe NM as a second and Vilma Zigman was the first, was his first big movie as in the Union. What movie was that? Red Sky at Morning was the the picture that. Speaker 1 Oh, the Vilma. Speaker 2 One and nobody's seen it, OK, You know, and it's Western or it's, yeah, in Santa. Well, kind of a Western, but it was in Santa Fe, you know, all you have to do to be a hero there is push the button, 'cause it's every night, you know, they have the great. Speaker 1 What was what was was Vilmos? Were you impressed by him? Speaker 2 He could barely speak in English and the first assistant he didn't like, so he moved me up to the first assistant and then at the end of that he says I just got offered another movie, Little movie up in in Canada. Would you go with me on that? And and it was it's called Presbyterian Church Rager at the time, but it was called it was Warren Beatty and God I can't think of the name of that either now. But anyways, we were up in Canada for like 6 months it. Speaker 1 Was. But that's how it works, right? Even back then. It's like you like someone. You can be around them for 16 hours a day and you go come with me next. Speaker 2 Time. Yeah. Sigmund and I got along real well. And then at one point I told Sigmund I didn't want to be an assistant anymore, and he always operated his own camera. I don't know whether you know about that stuff. Speaker 1 Yeah, sure. I mean, there were a lot of. Speaker 2 People. It was illegal, but they did it anyway. Speaker 1 Yeah, but it. Speaker 2 Yeah. And then he said, well, why don't you become my operator? And I said because I wouldn't be an operator, you know, he always had a standby. I gotcha. And he said, no, you'll operate every shot, I swear to God. So I moved, Yeah, I moved up to operator. The first movie was The Girl from Petrovka, which we did in Austria, which was great, and then it it went on from there. Speaker 1 When I I want to hear all of that. But if you have a Hitchcock story, I I'm not going to Many people have a Hitchcock. Speaker 2 I was an operator. I was a real hot operator at one time. So I get a call. They fired a friend of mine and I won't mention his name. Hitchcock. So I get I took the job and in those days you had to wear a suit. Not a suit, but a coat and a tie, which is great. That's great. So I got there, I did the day's work on an insert card and stuff, and the last shot of the day was a car coming down towards me and going off a Cliff. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 And I looked around for the cameras 1 camera. Speaker 1 And and this is an actual, honest to goodness car driving over a Cliff. You're saying it's it's OK. Speaker 2 You know it's in the movie. The movie was Bruce Stern was in and I can't remember the name. Anyways, so I'm sitting there getting ready to shoot this car and I'm thinking no extra cameras, I'm it. Speaker 1 And I'm assuming nobody's in the car like it's. Speaker 2 Rolling on its own, yeah, it was somebody in the. Speaker 1 Starting to yeah. Speaker 2 Maybe it was just a small drop anyway. Speaker 1 Anyway, but yeah. Speaker 2 So I, I oh, every The reason my friend got fired was going from Hitchcock to Lenny S It was the DP. Something was being lost. So the camera operator wasn't getting the right information. I got you. So every shot that was up, I would go over and listen. Hitchcock was sitting in this big Lincoln Continental, and I remember his stomach was just about hitting his chin. And I would listen, you know, I'd listened exactly. You know what he'd say. Speaker 1 He would direct from inside the car because it was more comfortable or something, Yeah. Speaker 2 So anyways, when I get ready to do the stunt, I hear him put a chair right next to my camera. I love it. And then I hear this shuffling and there we're getting ready to roll and Hitchcock says to me, I assume your machine is functioning properly. So I said yes Sir, and I turned it on. The car went off the Cliff I got. He could tell whether you had it or not. Speaker 1 And there's no video assist, right? Speaker 2 No God, no way before that. Love it and went off and all of a sudden up way he went, that was my. Speaker 1 Did did you interact with him any more than that or? Speaker 2 Is it? No, That much? I only, I took the job, 'cause I wanted to work with him. Yeah. Who wouldn't? And I think I was on it two days and that was the last. Speaker 1 Hey, that's that's pretty cool though. That's. Speaker 2 Great, That's. Speaker 1 Really cool. So. So you became Vilmushe? Speaker 2 Operator, I would say I did 10 movies with with Zigma, which was you know, the Deer Hunter, the the Rose, the oh God, it just went on and on and we. Speaker 1 Just close encounters. Speaker 2 Close and yeah, that's right, those encounters, Sugarland. Speaker 1 Sugarland. Yeah. But Sugarland, you were a first AC. Yes. OK, So actually, so I can sort of keep this in chronicle on it, 'cause I I could ask you questions about every one of these movies. So when you were working on Sugarland, this Steven Spielberg first correct. A theatrical feature. Right. Done, I think. I think he'd done a couple of TV movies, he. Speaker 2 Did do it. Speaker 1 Yeah, and some and some TV. Speaker 2 Which he won the award for when he was like 26. Speaker 1 He won which award? Speaker 2 For best director in Europe, they gave it really. Speaker 1 Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah, So you did Sugarland Express. He's in his 20s, right? I don't. 2626 was, you know, right Now you work with Spielberg. He's an auteur. He's Steven Spielberg. He's did it back then. Could you, could you see the seeds of what he would become? I mean. Speaker 2 Spielberg. Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 1 How so? Speaker 2 He was so different. I mean, he the way he hired people, the way he casted actor actors, he casted real people, you know, then and it would put up with them missing their lines just to get their accent or to get this, to get that. But he was just different. Speaker 1 So you could tell that this was a change in directing this was a change. Speaker 2 He was different, you know. And we were on it on Sugarland. God, four months probably down in Texas and you could tell it was gonna. It was a real good movie. It didn't do too good, but. Speaker 1 Now you've you've worked on, I mean I I listed some of them, not all of them. You've looked on massive, massive movies. When you're working on those movies, can you tell that they're gonna be good? Speaker 2 Probably, yeah, I would say so. Speaker 1 How often, how often did you work on something where you're like, this is gonna be the best thing ever and then it's just it's horrible? Speaker 2 I don't remember. I remember. I don't remember doing that all. Speaker 1 Right. So that's good. That's good. Yeah. So, so you become Vilmos's operator, you work on all these things. Did you? Pretty much. Were you pretty much going Vilmos, Vilmos, Vilmos 'cause he was just back-to-back 'cause he was? Speaker 2 I was. And then I somehow and I don't. Oh, oh. When I finished close Encounters, I got a call from Billy Fraker to do The Exorcist, too. So that's how I kind of transitioned to Fraker. And then Fraker and I he he knew I was a great operator, but we didn't get along at all. And he fired me twice. They fired me on Heaven Can Wait. I saw that was on the list. Have you ever been fired? But do you know the name Jordan Cronenworth? Sure. Well, Jordan was a very, very good friend of mine, and Jordan once told me he says you're not a great cinematographer till you've been fired from every major studio in Hollywood. I love and I damn near got there. I love. Speaker 1 That my, my, my thing is always if you haven't been fired, you, you have you you you haven't been in the business long enough. Speaker 2 I've been fired many times. Speaker 1 And let me ask you a question. Look, when when you get passed into your working on close Encounters and the Deer Hunter and whatever, you get fired, you probably realize like, OK, it happens. When you were younger, the first time, it happened when you were still, you know, a greener operator. How did that affect you or how did you deal? Speaker 2 I think it would have affected me. I never got. I never got fired for bad operating OK. I just in fact you want to hear the story how? Franker fired I. Speaker 1 Totally. Speaker 2 On Heaven Can Wait, Yeah, which I'd been on four or five months. OK, we came back. Did you ever see the movie? Speaker 1 I did. And Heaven Can Wait Went on like 9-10 months. It's Heaven Couldn't wait As Michael Michael Cimino. No, no. Speaker 2 No. Warren Beatty and Buck Henry directed it. Speaker 1 Oh, that's right. I'm sorry. I'm thinking of, I can't think of the movie. I'm thinking, but anyway, yes. Speaker 2 You'll love this the we came back onto the set and then the the the huge airplane was there that they go to heaven on and there's a dry ice everywhere and it. Speaker 1 Was on stage. I'm a. Speaker 2 So, and we'd just gotten back, so we got it all lit, ready to go and they wanted to wrap. And I said I was on the crane. I said, Billy, let me just run off 2 or 300 feet and we'll look at this tomorrow and see if we can fit. Need it to fix anything, Nikki, great idea. So anyways, I got to the stage in the morning and I called the lab and they said it's going to be shown so and so and so I walked down there and I walked back. It wasn't theirs. I walked back and so Billy came in and but he was hungover as hell. So he said, I said where are they showing the dailies? He said how in the fuck should I know? Just like that. And I just made me mad. So I walked back down to see the dailies. I'm coming back and Billy and the head of Paramount or wherever were and a a key grip. Art Brooker was there and he said to me, Nikki, where they showing the dailies and I just said how in the fuck should I? He said just get in your car and get out of here. And it was and it was a protest by Warren Beatty. He got real pissed off. Speaker 1 Thought you were being. Speaker 2 Fired. Called me at home so and so, but I was already on my way. Zigma and I own part of an island in San Juan's up off the coast of washing. I said screw it. I'm going to go up there and just kick back, drink wine, enjoy my life, knowing I'll never work in Hollywood again. And I get up there and the first day I'm there I hear that we had a radio telephone and this caretaker came walking down, said Nick. I just heard from Zigman from Thailand. Get on the next plane to For the Deer Hunter. Speaker 1 Oh my God. Wow. So basically, like, it's failing from success to success to success. Yeah. So. So let me back up your your you jump from camera assistant to operator. But it sounds like you were with someone who probably liked you and wanted to protect you and wanted you to succeed. Yes, But what? This is a long time ago, so understand What was that transition like? What what? What were? What did you find were the hardest parts about jumping from being an assistant to a camera? Speaker 2 Operator, well actually the the physical part and the agility of moving the camera at the right time and and knowing where to go and and I can remember I missed a couple you know people popping up. Speaker 1 Stand ups and. Speaker 2 Whatnot and but you get used to that after a while. But you know, once a couple weeks. And you know, I remember in fact, Mike Genie was my assistant when we came back on Petrova. I remember almost every shot that day to this day. Speaker 1 On on that first day. Speaker 2 Yeah, the first day coming back, Well, we were in Austria for a long time, yeah, Yeah. And then every time there was a shot that I don't think I could make, Sigmund would just take over. So when I got back, it was illegal. Yeah. And. Speaker 1 So you were sort of protected a little? Speaker 2 Bit exactly, Yeah, definitely. Speaker 1 That's amazing. And what about? What about quote UN quote, running the set. I mean was that would like you know and and and dealing with the first day deal and dealing with the actors or or. Let me ask you a question, 'cause maybe this is naive as an A camera operator now I'm very involved with that. Yes, it may not have been like that back in the day I. Speaker 2 Don't know, pretty much was it was OK, especially with European or yeah, directors, you know, they actually dealt with the camera operator more than the DP. Speaker 1 English system. Speaker 2 And I did several with John Schlesinger, who, Wow, he and I were just buddies, you know? Yeah. Yes. And I did the biggest bad movie he ever did. The Honky Tonk Freeway was called. Speaker 1 I vaguely remember this. I don't know if I. Speaker 2 Didn't last very the. Speaker 1 Name. So you're working with Sigmund and like I said, he obviously protected you a little bit. Did you have any experiences early on where you jumped on a movie where the DP did not protect you? Speaker 2 I did on when I was working. I went back and worked for Universal occasionally. And there was and I oh, you know who the DP was? I think Frank Thackery, who I'd worked with his dad, who was a big DP in the back of the I did a year of Ironside as an operator. Speaker 1 Ironside. Speaker 2 I did. And I keep looking at. I get get them back every day. Wow. But I haven't seen one that I remember and. Speaker 1 Back then, just to interject, was it? Was it more of a legacy situation where so and so was the son of so and so, you know, they were? Speaker 2 There was a lot of that. Speaker 1 Was in the family? Yeah, yeah, a lot of that. And was it hard to get in if you weren't in that in that crowd? Speaker 2 I don't know. I It probably was, you know, But I was, because my stepfather was ADP. Speaker 1 So tell you have to have some amazing stories about the Deer Hunter. Speaker 2 The Deer Hunter was unbelievable. I remember somebody got sick. A lot of people were getting dysentery and stuff like that. So when I was on the island of Sigmund Knight Place, he called me to come over there. Speaker 1 This is up in Washington, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, San Juan Islands. And when I got there, I think there was only like a month left, but it was the toughest month. It was like and Chamino was with us all the time and Chamino was just. Speaker 1 Tough guy. Speaker 2 He was horrible. Speaker 1 But let me ask you a question. But talented, I mean, of course. Yeah, I mean, I. Well, I'm assuming, but you never know who makes things he. Speaker 2 Definitely was talented. But I remember one time we were out on skiff in the on the river Kwai and he fell off the boat and everybody just turned their back. They just that's that's the kind of guy that and another time we had this oh there was a we had a if you saw the movement we had a flamethrower a guy had a flamethrower and we had the guy rigged that the flame was coming at to catch on fire and it didn't work. And Jimena said, OK, we're going to be back out here tomorrow morning at 5:00 in the morning. Well, the sun sun didn't come up until seven or something like that. So we're all sitting around saying what a jerk he was and he was right out there with us. He was sitting on the chair and heard other. Speaker 1 So, so sorry, you said that. No, you said there's a month left. So meaning was Vilmus operating himself and then decided I need someone? Speaker 2 Who had they replaced? I think I replaced the guy from there was a guy from New York there. Speaker 1 And so did you Did you shoot the the famous, the famous Russian roulette scene? Speaker 2 Of course. Wow, I was there, yes. Speaker 1 It was at as intense as I mean. Speaker 2 Absolutely. And we would. We stayed in this little motel. Wait. Speaker 1 Sorry, this was Thailand, right? Yes. OK. And this was 1973. Speaker 2 Something like that, OK. A little town called Kachinabra, which was right where the bridge on the River Kwai was. In fact, the bridge on the River Kwai was still there, but it wasn't what you remember. It was like a cement bridge. OK, but we go on the, they call them long boats. They're. Speaker 1 Sorry, you're saying the actual one or the one the one from the movie that they that they used? Speaker 2 No, the one from the movie was gone. Was. Speaker 1 Gone. So the actual. Speaker 2 Yeah, the actual, yeah. But we go on these boats, you could get about five or six people in them and they have a Toyota engine and they start the engine and it it was a direct drive to a propeller and they put that in the water and take you out and they just take you. Speaker 1 Out, yeah. Speaker 2 Holds cool. And about 10:00 there would be a barge with food and beer on it, and you didn't want you to drink any water that you got, all the beer you could drink, which is great, and all the marijuana you'd want in those days, it was, you know. Speaker 1 It's amazing anything got on in film. Speaker 2 But that scene, that was an incredible scene. I think it was the day I got there. Speaker 1 Oh my God. Speaker 2 Yeah, So it was, yeah, it was something. Speaker 1 There was that. Was that the only scene that day kind of thing. I mean, it took I. Speaker 2 Can't remember. We probably took a couple days to do it, 'cause it was pretty wild, And then they. Speaker 1 It's intense to watch I. Speaker 2 Can't imagine the pit. Yeah, well, that's Chamino too. Chamino was pretty talented guy. Yeah, absolutely. And then go ahead. Go ahead. I disliked him so much that the next movie, What's the big movie got? Speaker 1 The Chamino movie, Yeah, that's the one I was thinking of before. And I and I was thinking as Heaven's Gate, but it's not. Speaker 2 It is Heaven's Gate. Speaker 1 Oh, it's Heaven's Gate. I'm sorry. Speaker 2 Well, I was at Zigman and my island. Speaker 1 Heaven can, which was Heaven's Gate. That's why I'm confusing. Speaker 2 Which is 200 miles away from it. And they needed operators real bad. And I refused it. I said no, I'm not going to do it. Yeah, not. I have no interest in working with the guy again. Speaker 1 Interesting. So, so you're in Thailand, you're shooting, what is it, a week before you saw dailies? I mean, how did that? Speaker 2 Work. You didn't see him? Speaker 1 You didn't just someone someone from the States called up and said everything looks good or you got a negative report or something right? Interesting. Speaker 2 I never saw any dailies there. Speaker 1 Wow, so, so, so actually backing up a little bit or or. I don't know if it's backing up, but talk to me about going to dailies as an operator back then, because that's not something I I I had the tail end of that. I I hit the tail end of that. I used to go to dailies. I I actually miss it personally because it was kind of great in the sort of social aspect. It was also kind of terrifying because I was younger operator and I hope to God I wasn't going to get fired. But what was that like on these big? Speaker 2 It was absolutely incredible especially I started I got hooked up with Burt Reynolds and I was I did a lot of helicopter stuff and Burt Reynolds for dailies at night would have a chef a bar. It it was absolutely amazing and the first stuff I did for Burt Reynolds was Ariel's at the open of of Sharky's machine. I the last shot and Burt went with us about three or four times, but we get we had to follow the elevator up until it stopped at like the 80th floor and then when the doors open that was the cut. Speaker 1 Oh, you mean this is like on the outside of a hotel? We were on the side of the hotel. Speaker 2 Peachtree Plaza, which is round. OK, so we would follow. We did it about three or four times. The wind was blowing like crazy boy. So yeah, so Bert says I don't want to do this anymore. And I had an incredible pilot that that died on Runaway Train, but Ricky Hawley. But we did it about the 8th time we finally got. Speaker 1 It are you handheld in there or? Speaker 2 You. No. I had a what? A mount amount, but there wasn't enough light to use a zoom lens, so I had to use like a flat lane. So we had to be real close. Yeah. You know, our rotor blades were like, yeah, we're about 10 feet from the building. Oh my. Pretty scary. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's amazing. It's, you know, you say about the helicopter, it's like I think your generation compared to my generation was probably even a little more so. But there's all this stupid stuff that we did and we do that, that, that. Speaker 2 And now it's all drones. I don't think they do have. Like, no. Speaker 1 There's really not much reason for it anymore because the drones can get. I mean, the drones can go up and carry one of the actual cameras now, so. Speaker 2 It's amazing. Speaker 1 And they can do more. I mean you know what they can do is more impressive. So there's no question about it. So, so, so was early on when you Vilmos and and and on those early movies when you would show up for dailies was was was there a little bit of fear until you? Speaker 2 Absolutely. And at one time they almost told me he said you're ruining my work recently. Yeah, because we would, we would decide on a composition, an opening composition. Speaker 1 And again, just a reminder to people, there was no video assist back then. So he would he would show you the frame he wanted, and then he would assume that's what you're getting, right? Speaker 2 And sometimes I didn't and or I'd, you know, do the wrong move or something like that. But yeah, he told me one time. You're ruining my work. You're ruining my work, which was it was upsetting, but sure, I didn't get fired. Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah. So, so let me ask you a question as an operator now, who? One of the things that bothers me is that there is this whole, especially digital, there's this whole group of people who are watching a monitor who actually see more and better than I do, to be perfectly honest, cause they've got some massive monitor. So when I make a change or when I make a mistake that I think is a mistake, there's a little bit about, there's a little bit about, well, they've seen it, so I'm sure they're OK with it. And I'll usually bring it up. Hey, were you OK with, you know, and if it's something serious, but if it's minor, I don't. But back then, they're completely relying on you to say we got. Speaker 2 It 100%. When they yelled cut, the director looked directly at you and not the DP, you know, and it was just between you, you know, it's great. It was great, it really was. Speaker 1 And and and were there times where you, you know, you change something or whatever and you're sort of like, you know what, I'm just gonna hope that this is OK, 'cause? Speaker 2 I no, I usually hadn't made him do it again. Yeah, I just said. Speaker 1 No, but I mean, I mean where you made a, a slight change, it was your decision. Speaker 2 Oh, of course, of course. In fact, Fraker used to tell me, You know, I used to creep. I used to get set and then if if there's something in the in the picture that was move, I could creep with it. Yeah. I don't know whether you've ever done that. Sure, but but freak. But Freaker would say, God damn it, Nikki, you're creeping again. You're creeping again. But it would get to a better composition, you know? Yeah, I get over. If I didn't make it to that composition, I could creep over and get to that. Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I I work with a really good DP who's a very good friend of mine. I don't know if you ever ran into him. John Lindley. He shot Field of Dreams. Speaker 2 I know that name, but I never messed. Speaker 1 But, but I was I I once landed a frame and it wasn't exactly what I wanted and it was a long scene and and and you know, over about a minute I probably moved the frame, you know, just an eighth of an inch. And I don't, you know, I'm thinking to myself, nobody knows and whatever. And he came over afterwards and he goes, you realize I know what you're doing there, right. I said, oh God, he goes, no, it's fine. You were right. But I just want to let you know you're not getting away with it was. Was there ever a time where you went into dailies and you were just shocked? Like it wasn't what you remembered or you're shocked at what you did or? Speaker 2 I'll tell you a funny story on the swashbuckler, which we did the first part at Universal. There was a shot, and I think I was the B camera operator and there was a shot of these guy and a gal way up. God, they had to be 40 feet in the air and they were going to come down and they were going to go through this kind of a canvas and go into a a bunch of fruit or something like that. It was just a great stunt. Yeah. And it was on a Friday, which you know you always want to make everything real good on a Friday. So I I was there and I took them about the 1st 10 feet and for some reason I I to this day, I don't know why I went like this. I panned off them and I went down to the deal and they came through the top and landed. I went oh man, I'm dead this. I'm going to be fired on this one for sure. Jimmy Goldstone was the director who was did quite a few things. Pretty good, pretty good guy. So I thought well and I remember at dailies on Monday I was waiting for the shot. Sure. And here we go and I'm think this is it. As soon as they see this like you're gonna fire me, I'm done. So it happens and sure as shit I did pan off em. I got them and Jimmy Gold search says, says great Nick you got, you got me two shots. I got one at the top. I got one at the bottom and I went oh. Speaker 1 There you go. Dodge the bullet again. Oh, that's fantastic. close Encounters of the Third Kind? Yes. Tell me something amazing. There's got to be great stories about them. Speaker 2 But yeah, we we started off at, you know, the big mountain devil's pills pile or whatever. Speaker 1 I'll tell you something just as an aside, Several years ago we moved from the East Coast to the West Coast. I I got a a motor home and drove my family cross country, 'cause I I I realized my kids have only seen the coast and I wanted to show them. And we stayed at Devil's Tower at a right, literally like the KOA campground it was really and it's in the background. And the reason we stayed there was because every night or every night they could, or whatever, they had an outdoor movie and they showed close encounters with Devil's Tower in the background. Speaker 2 We know on my book, the cover of my book, I'm on top of a, on top of a card doing a had a Panavision, you know, with the eyepiece up like this, doing a two shot of the people inside and I'm tied to the car, but the Devil's Tower is in the background. Wow. Yeah. Speaker 1 Wow, pretty well. You're tied to the car, 'cause it's a moving shot. That's how they did things back, Yes, it would not fly anymore. Speaker 2 Yeah. No, it wouldn't, would it? Speaker 1 That's amazing. Oh, sorry. close encounter. So, yeah, What was that like to shoot? I mean. Speaker 2 It was great. It was just it was something new and it's and it was Steven Spielberg, so you knew you're doing the best. Speaker 1 Single camera. Speaker 2 I was the a camera operator, but I think and sometimes we had a couple. Speaker 1 But not all the, not all the time. I mean, no. Speaker 2 And a lot of the time we're 65mm or 70mm and then when we got to Joe or when we got to mobile, AL, they built that big set the the landing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were kind of christening it and Spielberg, you know, he said. We got, you know, two more months or whatever it is to shoot out here. And Spielberg picks up a bottle champagne and throws it. I thought that he's gone nuts, but he was christening. Speaker 1 Christening Oh, that's cool. Oh, because this, you were going to be here for the rest of the movie, that kind of thing, right? Speaker 2 And he didn't drink either. But he's not a drinker or anything like that. But what a great guy. Speaker 1 Really fantastic. Speaker 2 Well, you know, he produced the Goonies. Yeah, sure. And he made me be in the Goonies. So because we couldn't get actors in there, had a big rainstorm up in Astoria. OK, so he said. Nick, you got to do this part. And in this shot at the opening of The Goonies, I played the plumber. I was under the sink. But in the shot we had ATV, we had to balance the light from inside to outside because there's a car chase going on outside. I had all kinds of stuff to do and shouldn't have been in the shot. But, and I'm sure he'll help you out too, my operator in those days was Mike O'Shea was the greatest, greatest operator of all times. I think we did 10. He was my operator. Speaker 1 He's a great guy. He's he's on my list of people to talk. Speaker 2 Oh God, he's the best he's. Speaker 1 Fantastic. Speaker 2 He is absolutely the best and you know he won an Emmy for as a DP. Speaker 1 Yeah, I didn't know. Speaker 2 That, yeah, on I forget what it was. But yeah, he's he's is the best. Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So he was the operator when you were in the scene? Speaker 2 Yeah. Well, he was the operator on the whole Goonies, you know? Yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, I see. Oh, oh, but you were on the goonie. No, you were on the. Oh, you were. I'm sorry. You were the director of photography? Speaker 2 Yeah, but I was in it also as an actor. Speaker 1 No. And now I understand. Yeah, and you didn't decide to hang up the DP shingle and become an actor? Speaker 2 No, I did not. But I still get a residual about every four months I guess. How you got or something? Speaker 1 Yeah, I was going to say like the $0.25, 'cause I played in New Guinea or something like that. Oh, that's great. Was, I mean, and it was close Encounters, was that the biggest thing you'd ever worked on? Speaker 2 At the time, it was. Speaker 1 Scope wise, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 Yeah, it was huge. It was just and like I say, there was like we had a new motion control camera which was never ever been used before and in fact it was so sensitive they could probably do it on a computer like this now, but the computer was the size of that door there in that high. Speaker 1 Like in a truck somewhere or something. Yeah, right. And what what scenes did you use that for? Speaker 2 Every all, all the stuff you know, with the with the spaceships coming. Speaker 1 So you could shoot the live action stuff and then they could they could they? Speaker 2 Could drop that in. Yeah, right. And then it. And when the spaceship actually came down, we had like the top 10 feet of it, and then they put the rest in. Speaker 1 I got you digitally. That's amazing. Speaker 2 It was. It was amazing. Speaker 1 What was that, the first sort of big digital effects movie? Speaker 2 It was. I think it was. Speaker 1 And was it completely, I mean it's it's hard for me to put my head in that space because look, the problems that I have now are, you know, I worked on a a Marvel thing a little while ago and it's all green screen and they're like, you know, tilt up and see the monster and it's like you tilt up and like, no, it's bigger than that And you're like, well, where is it? I mean, and and of course it's a big green screen. So you have no idea of where anything is but so to me that's a not overwhelming, but that's frustrating but back then that must have been completely overwhelming Where and then did you just have the effects guys who were go look I know none of this makes sense but what I need you to see is this and we. Speaker 2 Had a guy named Doug Trumbull. Speaker 1 Doug Trumbull, Sure. Speaker 2 Who's with us? Speaker 1 Huge visual. Speaker 2 Effects. And he's the guy that kind of set that whole thing up. And one night you'll love this story. Spielberg and I, we were. Or Sigmund was lighting something and we went out on the tarmac and we were trying to see flying saucers, You know, we're trying to, you know, looking up for UFOs. And I started talking to him about when the mothership comes over. And here's the difference between Spielberg and me. I expected the mothership to be the size of this room, you know, or bigger. And I said, Steven, how big is it going to be? He says a mile across. And I. And it was, if you look at the movie when it comes in, it's massive. Yeah, it's massive. So that's that's Steven. Speaker 1 Well, look, the guy's got a he's got a vision, right? There's no question about that. I don't think we can argue. He sure is. And you couldn't. You probably couldn't other than the the unless it was the motion control. You couldn't move the camera at all in any of that, right? Speaker 2 No, that was it. You could move the camera. You could. That was the 1st. Speaker 1 Time with the motion control you could, but if it wasn't motion control, like you couldn't pan in a shot or something, that had to be had to be lock offs. That must have been a very. Speaker 2 Interesting. And it was 70mm. I believe it was either 65 or 70. I forget. Speaker 1 What it was larger format so they could do what they do, right. It's amazing because because I now when did you get out of the business? When did you retire? What year? Speaker 2 I did the last 100 episodes as friends. I started doing sitcoms this. Speaker 1 Is 100 episodes of Friends. I was on ER across the. Speaker 2 Lot, Yeah. Speaker 1 I remember when you guys didn't. You guys, there was something where maybe the 100 episodes sold and people got Miatas or something. It was. There was some. Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, they were supposed to give us that. Oh, OK. But you know, those kids the last two years were making a million per show. Speaker 1 Which now is nothing but that, yeah. Speaker 2 Right. Speaker 1 But. Speaker 2 Crazy, come on. Crazy, you know? And then I stayed on. They asked me to stay on to do the spin off of Joey, which went for two years and it was horrible. And then I went to do something else, just because of my crew and this producer gal, you know, she's like 25 years old, started giving me some crap and I just got went over and got my meters and that's when I retired. Speaker 1 So that was film though, right? Still, so my I. Speaker 2 Think it was. Speaker 1 My question was, did you ever work with digital? It sounds like you probably. Speaker 2 Did the last year of Friends we went digital. Speaker 1 Yeah, that was that point. ER tried it. Speaker 2 Too. I had a DIT sitting right in the room with me. Speaker 1 Was it the genesis or would you? Do you remember what cameras? Speaker 2 No, we had Panavision cameras I. Speaker 1 Believe it was probably the Panavision Genesis or before that they had the F900 that they sort. Speaker 2 Of I can't really. Anyway, yeah. In fact, I asked my son about that every once in a while. I said, what are you guys doing that with? It's they got a chip or something? Speaker 1 No. And and and The thing is, what I was going to say was, do you ever work with Norman Parker? No. Norman Parker is an assistant who Steven Posters assistant for a long time. He's a very good friend of mine. Speaker 2 Poster was our second unit, DP on close. Speaker 1 And close Encounters. Speaker 2 Exactly, That's we brought him out on there. Speaker 1 So I was bringing up Norman because I try to explain to him what it's like on set now, and it's just completely changed. And the reason I was breaking where I was going with this was from a visual effects point of view. I remember at first it was like, OK, everything has to have trackers. And you got to get, we could move the camera, but we had to have at first we couldn't, but you had to have the angle of the camera and the height of the camera and the lens of the camera. And now they just sort of go, no, you don't need to just do whatever you want. We'll figure it out. My wife's actual visual effects artist, So she's on the computer doing all that. Oh, really? And it's just incredible. It's incredible what they can do. It's amazing. It's incredible. I'll tell you, tell you a story. She's in her office in the house because she works at home. Speaker 2 This is your wife. Speaker 1 My wife, and she actually was not. She was started out doing hand animation at Disney. Then she did digital animation at Disney. Now she does. I don't even know how she does what she does, but she's amazing. But she'll come in. She'll come in and she'll go look at this, look at the shot. And I'm looking in the shot and I'm like, what? And she goes, you see all the crew there. I have to take the crew out. Why do I have to take the. I don't know. I didn't. You know. Right. But you wouldn't have the crew there. You would. You would. You would catch that. And And I said, yeah, but she go, why do I? Well, I didn't do the shot. It wasn't, you know, she'll get upset at me. And I'm like, I had nothing to do with it. So now whenever I'm on set and people are like, no, they'll just take it out digitally. I go, no, no, no, no. You guys move those chairs. Speaker 2 That's good idea. Speaker 1 I can't deal with it, but yeah, so and and close encounters must have been months and months and months and months, I mean. Speaker 2 We were, I would say, five months, something like that. And we did in mobile, it was 100°, you know, in the daytime, maybe more. And so we decided for the last month or maybe two months, we worked 6:00 PM to 6:00 AM. Speaker 1 Just cause of the heat. Speaker 2 And it was horrible. It was just and we had air conditioner in there, but as soon as, yeah, it didn't work. Speaker 1 And back then, air conditioning wasn't what it is now, right? I gotta ask you a very specific question about Marathon Man. But yeah, you can probably guess. I'm a steady Cam operator. So right. You know, Marathon Man was probably like maybe the 3rd or 4th movement. Speaker 2 I always thought it was the first but. Speaker 1 Maybe not, no. The first was actually the Woody Guthrie story, Correct. You're right. Bound for Glory is that. Step off and everybody kind of lost their minds. Speaker 2 And Haskell did it. Speaker 1 Yeah, Yep. This I I have to check. I think Marathon Man might have been the second one, right? But do you? Was that the first time you'd seen Steadicam? Speaker 2 Yes, and Garrett pulled up. And they'd already done shots around of Dustin in New York. But we used it for something and I remember it was in his trunk and there was no cases or anything. He just pulled. Speaker 1 From other people too, really well cause a couple, I think there weren't cases for a couple of shows. Speaker 2 Yeah, there wasn't. And he just kind of put it together and I thought, Jesus. Speaker 1 Was it? Was it mind boggling? Speaker 2 It it, I knew it was going to revolutionize the the business. If it was, good if it worked. Speaker 1 And and from what I'm hearing from you pulling it out of his trunk and this did it seem, what was there a feeling on set of like who the hell is this kid and what kind of? Speaker 2 Yeah, kind of and. Speaker 1 And then when you saw it was it just, I mean was great. It was impressive great. Now the story that I heard, which I think maybe I heard from Garrett, was that he was doing a shot in Marathon Man where he had to, he had to go across the street and step up on a on a step or something like that. And back then, it was one of the first Steadicam. So I think it was called the Steadicam model. It was called the 35 ever, But it had, it had the, you know, the, the spindle, the camera was like locked on there and the spindle went down the post or something like that. And the monitor was up high and he apparently stumbled and someone said to him, you know, if you put the monitor down low, oh, interesting, you could actually watch. And so I didn't know if you you remembered. Speaker 2 I don't remember. Speaker 1 OK. Speaker 2 That sounds like in New York they might have done that. Speaker 1 It could have been. It could have been So you shot, you shot the. You shot the interrogation scene with pulling the. Speaker 2 Absolutely. And Conrad, you know, Conrad Hall was the DP. Conrad was my hero. Always has been my hero. Speaker 1 One of the single greatest cinema. Speaker 2 Talk Incredible. Speaker 1 Time by the way. And it's funny, I I talked to younger people and they asked me about, you know this and then the other and when they ask about that, about you know what, what a great searching for Bobby Fischer to me. It's it's a great movie, but it is one of the single most beautiful movies I've ever. Speaker 2 Seen every day on Marathon Man, Conrad and I would have lunch and we would go to dailies first and then go to lunch and at lunchtime and we'd have a couple glasses of wine. Conrad would say, I've lost it, he said. That stuff looked like shit. He said we've, I can't. I can't do this anymore. Speaker 1 So basically what you're saying is one of the most talented cinematographers in the world who was still had it, was doubting himself. Speaker 2 Constantly. Speaker 1 That's actually, by the way, if nothing else comes out of this for younger operators to me, well, here's the thing, like, I don't know, it sounds like you were a very different situation at a different time. But like for me, when I first started and my big break was really on ER and I was a camera, Steadicam operator and Steadicam, I could do, but a camera I was like, I don't really know what I'm doing, I'm kind of. And so you're constantly questioning. Speaker 2 Yourself, that you go back and forth from a regular camera to. Speaker 1 Well, yeah, and I was the only camera. I mean, there's only one camera. Speaker 2 Oh, I see. I thought you were. Speaker 1 The camera. So I was the camera operator for when I was there. I mean, yeah. And yeah, it was, it was a single camera show. Wow. So, so yeah, so it was trial by and and here's the thing, the first two days or two weeks maybe even I didn't really even, like, put a lot of stuff on the truck because I just assumed I was going to get fired. So, so, going back to Marathon Man, first of all, you used to have wine at lunch. Speaker 2 Oh God. Speaker 1 Yes. What? Like like. Speaker 2 Everybody, I mean. Speaker 1 But wait, but like officially with catering or or. Speaker 2 No, no, we go to Goglass. There was a little restaurant. Speaker 1 OK, you go out for lunch and have some wine. I got you. Speaker 2 And Conrad loved to tell stories, you know. And in fact, because of that, Princess and I had our honeymoon in Tahiti and of course that's where Conrad's from. And he's got his own little island there. And and I went his he didn't, you know, his dad wrote. Was it mutiny on the bounty? Speaker 1 Yes, no, I think. Speaker 2 You're right. I think you're right. And we went to visit his house when he was a kid. Speaker 1 And that's how his connection is in Papayette. Oh wow. Yeah. Did everybody own an island back then? Speaker 2 Just me and Zig and I sold my portion of the island. I don't know what the Zigma did. There was like 20 people in on the deal. We bought 51 acres and put eight real bitching cabins on it. Everything. It's amazing for nothing, I think. Yeah, I'm sure. I think it was like 150 grand or something like that. Speaker 1 So tell me about tell me about the that that infamous scene and shooting the infamous scene in in Marathon Men where he's where he's interrogating him and pulling the teeth and. Speaker 2 I'll never forget it. It was. It was. And Sir Laurence Olivier and I believe it or not, became real good friends. Really. Yeah. And it was just mind boggling, you know, 'cause actually they cut it out of the deal, but they rigged it so when he was drilling the tooth, there would be smoke coming out of it, boy. And. Speaker 1 Because it was two. It was. Speaker 2 They showed it somewhere and people were walking out. Speaker 1 It was just two. I mean, that scene is hard enough to watch as it is. That would have been even. Speaker 2 More Is it safe? Speaker 1 Yeah, it's very, very safe. No, no, it's not safe. It's not safe right now. You know that. You know the story about that scene between Olivier and and Dustin Hoffman and Dustin Hoffman being method and staying up for? Speaker 2 Three days I was there. Speaker 1 What but is that is. Speaker 2 That a true story, yes. Speaker 1 Can you tell that story? Speaker 2 Yes, it was when Roy Schneider came in and died and Dustin was going crazy how to play it and so on and so forth. And he did stay up two or three nights before that, so on and so forth, and he didn't know how to play the scene. And Sir Lawrence was sitting there getting pissed off. And finally he said why don't you just try acting? So it is true. Speaker 1 It's true, you you were in the room when he said. Speaker 2 I was in the room to say it and also I was in a taxi cab in Dublin and we were going along and he found this guy, found out that we were, you know, knew that stuff. And I was on Marathon and he asked me the story, a taxi cab driver. It's a classic. I was there, right? It happened. Speaker 1 And I always assumed that there's part of me that assumed that it's apocryphal, and there's part of me that assumed that that no, there's no, because that was old school acting meets new school acting, right? Exactly. I'm sure to someone like Olivia, that was like, what are you doing? Speaker 2 You know, years later on, when I was working with Schlesinger again, so Reliance Olivia came on the set and called me my, my, my first name. And people were just going, oh, really? And because we've gotten to be buddies on on what was he? Speaker 1 What was he like as? Speaker 2 A great guy, just a great guy, great act. And the first day I worked on Marathon Man, I didn't know who he was, and the first shot was taking him off this airplane. Speaker 1 Was he not that big of an actor? Speaker 2 Yet, no, He was huge. He was. He was the biggest. OK, that's what I. But I didn't know. I wasn't into that. Yeah. In fact, when I did a a a deal with The Rolling Stones, I didn't know who Mick Jagger was. I didn't. And I said, which one? Speaker 1 Let's, let's spend the night. Let's spend the night together, yeah. Speaker 2 Right. With Caleb, yeah, which I did several with Caleb, you know. Speaker 1 Wow. Speaker 2 Yeah. Speaker 1 You didn't know who Big Jack, but you knew who The Rolling Stones were. Speaker 2 I don't know. I wasn't into that stuff. That's amazing. I barely knew who The Beatles were. I was a football, you know, I was OK. Got sports. Speaker 1 Well, so let me ask you a question like the here's the thing, I want to hear all these, all these stories, but I also there's a little bit of me that wants to get some Nuggets for people who are operating. And me by the way, how do you approach working with, with, with actors, with hard look? Laurence Olivier and and Dustin Hoffman are a perfect example. You had to work with both of them as an operator. One of them is an old school, you know you do the and the other one is the new breed which which probably was sort of at that point was that I mean were were people used to people acting that way. Speaker 2 But that, yeah, you just had to kind of feel it out, whatever they were, you know, you just had to get along. And I usually got along with people real well, So if I needed them to move or get up or do this or that, I just approach them. And if it looked like they weren't going to do it, I'd have to do it with the camera. You know, it's just. Speaker 1 So basically you you you kind of assess whether you're going to get the help from them or not and then and then if you if you don't like I'm going to I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess then in that scene Dustin Hoffman didn't want to know I got to lean to the left to get my lighter or whatever. So you basically just just try to work around that out of respect for the process right. Interesting and and you know another question that I have and maybe this, this is my, this is my assumption now between digital and also I think lighting has changed whatever people tend to light spaces and let the actors play in them and back then I sort of get the feeling that it was a little bit more like no, this area is lit and that area is not lit so. So was there less ability to change things on the fly as an operator if you if I? Speaker 2 Think you if you knew what you're doing, you could do it. You know, you could move the camera, or you could ask them to move. Or you know, they pretty much know if they missed their light or stuff like that. But what about? Speaker 1 Within the shot, was there ever sort of that jazz of like changing something within it, or was it pretty much. Now we're set and we'll fix it on the next. Speaker 2 One, I would think what I would do if they missed their mark and stuff like that, I'd kind of assess it and realize, you know, if I got, if, if it was, if it was going to work when you saw it, you know, I would just, you know, go with it, you know. If not, if I'd make him, you know, I'd stop. Make him redo it. Speaker 1 Yeah, and so can you tell me about tell me about working with Dolly Grips? Speaker 2 I had two or three of the in fact, that was one of my deals on two or three of my movies. I took my dollar grip with me. Speaker 1 Great who? Who was it? Speaker 2 Timmy, I can't think about Timmy's last name. I can't think anybody's. That's OK. Timmy. Timmy. Ryan was my Dolly grip. He was a great. He was a great storyteller, but he had, he had the, the flow you know he had. Speaker 1 What made him good? Speaker 2 He could just go with, you know, he could cheat. He could go like me on the camera. He would just, you know, be smooth, knowing to start when to stop. The ups and downs were great. It was just great. Yeah, I took him with me on being there and several other movies. Speaker 1 You know, and this was long, long before what's now, which is they've got a monitor that they look at. This was he, he just had to be sighting along the camera and know the frame, right? That's amazing. Speaker 2 Yeah, in fact, a great story. Spielberg wanted to be an operator, really, you know? And I didn't want him to operate you. Speaker 1 Know you mean he wanted to operate shots on his movie? Speaker 2 Sometimes, yeah. So the first time he wanted to operate, it was on close Encounters, Yeah. And we had the PSR then we. I don't. We might have had the Panoflex. Maybe it was a Panoflex, but it was a little truck and it was going to go, you know, a little model truck was going to go to. So Spielberg got behind the camera like that. I just held the magazine. Speaker 1 So he's on the wheels and you're you're. Speaker 2 Forced to go and he and the truck goes. So I told him, I said, you know, if somebody was on that camera that knew what they were doing, we wouldn't have to redo it. And he just got up. Speaker 1 That's fantastic. Oh my God. Speaker 2 But he operates everything now, and it's probably a pretty good operator too. I'll. Speaker 1 Bet. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Mitch Dubin is his a camera operator. I should ask Mitch whether he whether he jumps on there or not. He probably does. Speaker 2 Oh, I think he does. Do you think? Speaker 1 It's a Do you think it's a control thing, or do you think it's just he likes to be in the process? Speaker 2 He's just, he's just Mr. Movies, you know that's his whole life. Yeah it was, you know he was. He's and Chris like Caleb, you know. Did you ever work with Caleb or? Speaker 1 No, I never worked with, you know I I missed a lot of those guys. Speaker 2 He he's probably retired now, yeah, but he followed the guy that did the Godfather. What the hell was? Speaker 1 This Gordon Willis. Speaker 2 Gordon Willis and he would go, Caleb would go to 8 movies on the weekend, you know, just to check lighting, stuff like that. But he was a total into the movies, which I wasn't. I mean, I was, but I did OK. But I wasn't like those guys. Speaker 1 Gotcha. I know, I know what you're saying. Yeah, I was actually just, I was just talking to a friend of mine, Buzz Meyer, who's a great Steadicam operator. I've heard that a camera Steadicam operator. And he does, he does B camera Steadicam on the Spielberg Movies Now with Mitch and and he was saying to me, he said the first movie he did was the Post. And he did this big Steadicam shot. And he said, you know, at the end he pulls up and and and he, he holds a lock off. And he happens to notice that Spielberg's standing next to him at the end holding an iPad, which is now how he watch a lot of shots and he's watching it and he's just got this big smile on his face. And it was great, 'cause buzz was like it was so great, 'cause it was just like he was just this guy who really loves movies and he likes and he's happy that he's watching it. And I I thought that was, you know, still at this point. Speaker 2 I have to tell you about my Steadicam shot and my only Steadicam. Speaker 1 Shot What year? What year is this? Speaker 2 No idea. But it was. But Garrett was not avail. Yeah. 70s on the Exorcist too. OK. And Boreman came to me and. Speaker 1 Said this is John Boreman, the director. Speaker 2 Yes, we want to go down these steps. Speaker 1 The steps, the steps steps like but but I mean the exorcist steps like. Speaker 2 Those no, no, no. The steps inside and there's a Little River And then he said I want you to come up with the steady Cam, OK? And we're going to mat, so you have to be steady. We're going to, we're going to mat a tiger coming out of his mouth. Speaker 1 Oh my God. Speaker 2 So I said, he said. Do you think you've? Speaker 1 Never put a steadycam. Never for this. Speaker 2 You said, Do you think you could do it? I said. Are you kidding me? Piece of cake. So I put the steadycam on and the door he, he had to go through is about this. Wide, just wide enough for my shoulders. And then it was straight down, 10 steps. And then, so when I went through, I put the Steadycam out and of course then I couldn't get it back and it went all the way, so it. Speaker 1 Was getting it was getting away from you, basically. So it gets another thing where it starts getting away and you try to get it and it gets away. You're running after. Speaker 2 So I got down there and then I brought it back up and of course the thing was shaking like shit. So the next day at at Dailies I said how was it born? And said unusable. So we got, we got Garrett back to do it when he was available. So I took Garrett over there and he said, Nick, it's an impossible shot. You can't get through this and throw that out. You got. Speaker 1 Felt a little better. Speaker 2 He said what? I exactly. He said what I will do is I'll have him make this doorway this wide. So I and then I didn't know, but that's the last time I ever put the steady Cam on. Smart one. What? Yeah, I don't think I could be a very good steady Cam on. Speaker 1 Look, there's some people who can and some people who can't. It's just and there's no rhyme or reason to it. I thought it was. There's a little bit, but not much. Did you ever work with Ted Churchill? Speaker 2 I knew him very well. You did. Didn't he pass away? Speaker 1 He did. He died. Yeah. It's it's probably going on 15 years. Speaker 2 Now, yeah, I used him back in Florida a lot. Really. Burt Reynolds stuff he was from Florida, wasn't. Speaker 1 I don't know he, I know he lived in New York. I don't know where he was from. Speaker 2 Originally, that's right, yeah. But I understand in his backyard somewhere he had a whole, like a place that he would run with the. Speaker 1 Oh, I guarantee you probably did. Yeah, you know that there there's the the saying that Garrett invented the Steadicam and Ted invented the operator. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Speaker 1 He was a personality. Speaker 2 He was great. Speaker 1 Yeah, You have any good Ted stories? Speaker 2 I don't remember anything, OK. But I remember sometimes when I'd get a Steadicam in there and the Steadicam operator would come in with the director there and take it, you know, and I'd be watching him. He'd be doing a 360. Yeah. And he said, what do you think? I said, I would say that, OK you light it. Yeah. See what? Speaker 1 They get themselves into trouble with the DP, right? What about being there? What was? Speaker 2 Being there was probably my favorite movie I ever done. Ever. Speaker 1 Really. Why? Why? Why is that? Speaker 2 Just because of Hal, Ashby was my second favorite director of all times. Caleb wasn't a big shot at the time. He was kind of coming up, OK, great cat. Peter Sellers and I actually became good friends, really. And it was, you know, we did the first part in Washington, DC I've never been there before. So I got to see couple weeks of Washington, DC and then we did. We were in the Asheville, the Biltmore Mansion. Speaker 1 Oh, in Asheville, NC. Beautiful. I didn't. I didn't realize that's where that's where it was. It makes perfect sense, yeah. Speaker 2 And you know the driveway from the street to the steps 3 miles, you know, 3 miles through there. So I knew every inch of that building. You. Speaker 1 Were there for months or? Speaker 2 At least, yeah, months or more. And The funny thing about that, Caleb had a condo right below me, and there's two little gals out that are big movie stars now. They were like 6 and eight years old. And when it would snow, they'd get the suitcase and have a sled down the hill somewhere. It's amazing to see that. Yeah, it was just a great movie. You know, you could tell. You could tell is. Speaker 1 That one of those movies that working on it you could go, this is going to be a classic. Speaker 2 I don't really know until till the end, but there's more. In fact I was doing an interview in in Dublin and it's like the Howard Stern of Dublin. He was going along and, you know, he had known about a few of the movies I did and they slipped him a piece of paper that I did. Being there, the guy went nuts. Really. Speaker 1 What? Look, it's a it's a great, great movie and it stands the test of time. There's no question about it. That's great. Have. Speaker 2 You seen it? Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, you know, what's funny is now that we're talking about it, I should see it again, 'cause I haven't seen it in a long time, but I guarantee you it holds up. It's Chauncey Gardner. Speaker 2 Oh, it's fantastic. Well, you know the the author was with us who committed suicide later. Oh, I didn't know that Jersey Kaczynski was his name. Speaker 1 Jersey Kaczynski Yeah, I didn't. Yeah, maybe I did not anyway. But so you've mentioned now twice that you've become good friends with with these. Speaker 2 Fairly big. I did big actors. What? I'm actually a pretty friendly people and get along with people. Speaker 1 Obviously but but but a lot of actors are are you know they they're a little there are a few they've got some but but even even the ones who don't I think they kind of have their guard up to people cause a lot of everybody wants something right. Right. So what do you, what do you? I mean, you obviously have a way with actors, and I'm sure that works unsaid. Speaker 2 Yeah, not all, but but most you know. And like you say, some are just jerks. Yeah, well. Speaker 1 But they're like everybody else, right? I mean, there's some people who aren't, some people who aren't, but I mean, do you think it's because you just treat them like people? Speaker 2 Or I do, yeah. I treat them well and and expect to be treated well back. So yeah. Speaker 1 That's interesting that you said that because I think that's that's I think there's something to that which is I think there's something to to saying you know what look you've got a tough job and and you're in front of the camera and I have all deference for that, but I also have a tough job and we we all deserve respect. Speaker 2 And when you say that, it might piss him off, but it might not too, so you don't know what. Speaker 1 It's exactly right. Yeah, it's exactly. Speaker 2 Right. You just kind of have to play it by ear. Speaker 1 Did you ever you ever work with and you don't have to name them any actors? That it was just absolutely impossible. Speaker 2 To work. Warren was beady and I didn't two or three things with him, but he was just a jerk, you know, He just, he was, he was honest to God. On two or three of the movies, we would start betting on what we'd get to take 30 to 4040 to 50. And Julie Christie, She would say. Warren, you're such an asshole. Speaker 1 Because he's a because he's a perfectionist. Speaker 2 Or he thought he didn't get right. In fact, on McCabe. Mrs. Miller. That was the name that I couldn't think of. Speaker 1 Oh yeah, you were. You were an assistant on that. Or you were. Speaker 2 I was an operator. I ended up as an operator. I did like the BC cameras gotcha and that was in Canada that. Speaker 1 Was Vilmos? Yes. Yeah, OK. Speaker 2 But there was a scene. It was a Friday night and we had the weekends off. But we started the scene at 6:00 and the scene was this. Warren Beatty was drunk. He was in a hot tub and his arm falls off the thing and it splashes up and he wakes up. That's the scene. Speaker 1 That's the whole thing. Speaker 2 That's the scene, OK? Midnight. Speaker 1 Really. Speaker 2 Midnight. Speaker 1 How many takes? Speaker 2 Forever. Maybe 100? Speaker 1 But could you? Speaker 2 Altman left, Altman said. After take 10, he says. I got what I need to see you guys and he left. Speaker 1 And then BD was basically directing it. So, and let me ask you this, could you actually sense a difference between no take to the? Speaker 2 Next No. Do you? Speaker 1 Think that he could sense something? Or was it just that he couldn't? Speaker 2 I don't know he he would get out and do push ups and he just had a huge ego, you know, he just, yeah. Speaker 1 That's a tough one. Yeah. So back, back to camera, operating just 'cause I should ask you some of these things, although I could get lost in these stories. These stories are fantastic. Speaker 2 They are. Speaker 1 What what do you what do you think the difference between a between a good operator and a great operator is? Speaker 2 That's a that's I think, well, then a great operator would be somebody that gets along with everybody that's very coordinated, that knows when to move and when not to move. And a regular operator was just, you know, make the moves, you know. But if you kind of got into it, got into the movie, knew what was going on, knew what the dialogue is, you know when you can cheat when you can't cheat, that would be the difference to me. Speaker 1 Oh, that's great. And. And you used to work with assistants who were next to the camera, right? Yes. You know where assistants are now? I. Speaker 2 Think they're in the in the next room or something. Speaker 1 You're in another room a lot of times and the interesting thing that I don't know and you came from assisting to operating, there had to be an unbelievable. I mean while I'm saying this, I know the answer to it, but I wanna hear your take on it. There had to be something in the fact that since you were sitting on the Dolly. And you knew that physically the Dolly was moving. You just learned how cameras moved. And you you knew that the operator was panning and this and that. And there had to be so much of that that you must have internally just understood without even knowing you. Speaker 2 It could have been. Speaker 1 And and I have this big fear now that that's all, it's not a fear, it's a reality that that's all, that's all gone. Because they don't have that that input. The other thing that they don't, they don't here is like you used as an assistant, you used to sit and listen to the Dolly, the Dolly grip and the camera operator talk all the time. Right. All that stuff, right. So yeah it's. Anyway, I did you do a lot of shows where there was you were the A camera operator and there was AB camera operator or were they most? Speaker 2 I think so, yeah. I think on a lot of them that we found out you could work a lot quicker with two cameras. Speaker 1 And what what do you as an A camera operator? What do you what what what do you expect from AB camera operator? What makes a good B camera operator? Speaker 2 I think just knowing his job and and you know and and staying in his own department and and helping me and and. Speaker 1 Do you expect them to check in with you on, Hey, what do you think of this? Of course, yeah. And if they have a shot that to pitch? Speaker 2 If it was good, I'd go for it. Speaker 1 But better to go through you before going to the DP to make sure they're not stuck until. Yeah, right, Yeah, yeah. And you you mentioned you mentioned that you were the DP on Friends. Speaker 2 I was. Speaker 1 For 100 episodes, 100 and you got nominated for a couple Emmys. I got three. Yeah, it's amazing. Speaker 2 I didn't get them. I got nominated. Should have won for one of them. Speaker 1 You know you know what the the thing, the thing that I always say about those things is to me it's everybody says this, but the nomination is what's key because at the end of the day you have five things and it's sort of like my friend says it's like the dog, the dog show that Schnauzer is a better dog than that poodle. I mean at the end you know that's that's amazing and what what's the difference between that was a four camera sitcom? Speaker 2 4 camera. Speaker 1 Yeah. What's the difference between you, an operator on these big movies where you were the a camera operator and and one of these sitcom operators? Speaker 2 Well you you can you don't have to be a great operator be a sitcom operator. You're there's you know and the lighting isn't great. You know I mean what there's A to ABCD cameras and what's front light for this camera is backlight for this camera. So you know, unless the director or the producers come to you and say, look it, we want this specifically, I'd say, OK, let's do it with one camera and I'll light it the way I'd light. Speaker 1 It. I got in a movie, yeah. Speaker 2 And the producers always backed me. We had great produce, sure. Speaker 1 Sure. Did you ever have a situation where you were on a show and the DP and the director weren't playing well together and they were coming up and going no, do this. And the other ones coming up and saying no, no to do this? Yes. What? What do you? Speaker 2 Do I just usually do what the director wanted? Yeah, and, well, it depends what my relationship with the DP was. Sure, if the DP was a jerk, you know. Speaker 1 Well, let's say, let's say, though I clearly if you like one and you don't like the, right, that's where you're going. You know where your next job's coming from, right? But let's say you like both of them, but they're just not they're. Speaker 2 I would probably make my own choice and just see what was the right thing for me to do, You know, just get in there and do it. Speaker 1 How involved were you in designing shots back then, or? Speaker 2 As ADP. Speaker 1 No, is it, no, sorry, when you were operating. Speaker 2 A little bit depend on the DP. How much? You trusted me some. And I would, Yeah. How? Speaker 1 About with Vilmos. Speaker 2 Vilmos, pretty much. He wanted a certain, his certain is actually where I won composition, learned composition from him. And so it would, you know, he would pretty well give you the first the opening composition and the end composition. Yeah, and like I told you a few times, I didn't get it. Told me I was ruining his business. Speaker 1 And you just do that with what? With the viewfinder directors? Viewfinder or something like. Speaker 2 That I would do it on the shot and I think most of the time, no. Towards the end we had video so he could tell what I was doing. Speaker 1 Yeah, once you had video, so, so gearing towards, you know, newer operators 'cause you were talking about composition. When you're when you're composing a shot, what are what are the things that you used to think about? Speaker 2 Well, the way Vilmos, you know, he in the scene, he always wanted something very, very dark of something very, very light. And if there was a big something to compose on, you know, it was pretty obvious. But if you gave the camera to 10 different operators, they would and just say, you know, give me an opening, it would they'd be different probably. So it's just like what's in your brain. You know for good what looks good. Speaker 1 You know, I was gonna say so is it the kind of thing where you just find and you just it happens to look right to you, you just sort of know exactly and it was that there when you started operating or did? Speaker 2 You. I think most of my composition was from working with Sigmund all those years. Yeah. And I think I ended up, which isn't a bad thing to know. It's. Speaker 1 Not a bad person to learn. Speaker 2 Right, right. And I did. I ran, Yeah. You know, and you're talking about being nominated for an Emmy. Sigmund and I got nominated the same year he got nominated for ATV Deal, he said. And we showed up and we were almost sitting, you know, across from each other and it was almost embarrassing to be and all of a sudden he didn't get it. Speaker 1 Because you're saying like, here's this guy. Speaker 2 Who's this big cinematographer? And he's and he as soon as his he didn't win, he was gone. You know, I looked over to see him. He couldn't. Speaker 1 See something? Wow. If you had an idea of the shot that was different than what the DP or the director were coming up with, how did you? How did you? Speaker 2 Depend who the director was. When I did a lot with Burt Reynolds was a very good director. But I would always go to him and I would say, what do you think about this? And he would, he would tell me what he thought, but 90% of the time he'd say do it. Let's see what happens. Speaker 1 You know, gotcha. So he gave you? Speaker 2 And he was just a great. And you know, we didn't get into Burt Reynolds much, but he was one of my best buddies. One of my best friends. He made me ADP. That's a good story. OK, we're in Sharky's machine. Speaker 1 You had worked on shows with him as an operator, I'm assuming. Speaker 2 Yes, but we're on Sharky's machine. We're doing 1000 millimeter lens across this thing to a apartment where the hookers were in, stuff like that. So you know, Sigmund did Deliverance. So Bert was sitting next to me, and we're talking about Deliverance and Sigmund, you know, how great he was, so and so forth. And Bert got up and started to walk out of the room and he turned around and he said, well, I'm going to make you ADP. And he walked out. And at the time, Princess and I were together, and you know, she knew Bert 10 times better than I did because of Sally. Speaker 1 Oh, that's right, because of. Speaker 2 Sally. And so I went back to the room at night and I said, you know, he said he's going to make me ADP. And she says, well, he's he's not much of A liar. About six months later, I got a script at my house for to move up on a feature. Speaker 1 What? What movie? Stroker. Ace. Stroker Ace. Speaker 2 And Lonnie was in it, and he was dating Lonnie at the time. He might have been married to her, but anyways, then about a week later, I got a note to shoot a test on Lonnie. Well, they weren't tested. Me. I mean, they weren't Dustin Lonnie. They were tested. Speaker 1 Me. Speaker 2 But I had the best gaffer in Hollywood. Speaker 1 Who was that? Speaker 2 Gary Holt, who tragically had a bad fall, and you know, he was, he was actually ready to be one of the biggest DPS in Hollywood. And he hit his head on something and he's, he's alive still, but he's kind of not all there. Just sad, just a sad deal. But yeah, so the the test came back and I got the movie. Yeah. In fact, Mike Genie was on it with me. Speaker 1 Was he your operator? Speaker 2 No, I think he was an assistant. Speaker 1 Assistant. Speaker 2 But I remember I was so new that I would send Mike to go to, you know, talk to the lab in the morning. Yeah. And I'd watch him coming back to see if he had a smile on his face or frowning. Speaker 1 You mean as the DP you couldn't you can deal with? Speaker 2 I didn't have time to go, you know. But so I'd send Mike, 'cause he'd call all that, Yeah. And I would, yeah, depending on what his frame of mind when he came. Speaker 1 Back. Sure, Sure, sure. Speaker 2 And that movie I could shoot now with my eyes closed. It was, you know, 90% exterior, you know, and maybe a few sets, Very few sets. But yeah, it was. But then I went from picture to picture to picture after that. Speaker 1 What of the movies did you do with them? Did you shoot for? Speaker 2 Them I did the whorehouse, I know, but I think I was the operator on the echoes. Fraker was that. Speaker 1 How was Dolly Parton? Speaker 2 Yeah, she was great. Yeah, she was, absolutely. Speaker 1 Wonderful. She's like one of my favorite. Speaker 2 People. Speaker 1 I never worked with her, but. Speaker 2 Now just the greatest. Yeah. And I did with Bert. I went down. In fact, I directed a 2 hour movie. Oh really? For Bert? Yeah. It's called BL Striker. It was a. Speaker 1 TV movie you mean? Speaker 2 Yeah, it was like, it was like a Columbo, one of those things. Two hour TV deal I did. We did like 2 years of those. Wow. And I did all kinds of stuff with him. I can't even remember all this. That's great. But he and I just became good, good friends. Speaker 1 That's fantastic, Yeah. Speaker 2 And I used to stay at this place. He had this mansion, yeah, in Jupiter, FL. And then he had the ranch there. So it was. It was back in those days, he had it all. Speaker 1 I'm sure he was. It was like one of the biggest stars in the. Speaker 2 World had his own jet. Speaker 1 Wow. We had then was that wasn't that wasn't normal right? Speaker 2 And he had his own helicopter and we would unstick. We'd work out in the cane fields and the guys would have to in take them an hour going over these bumpy roads and we just got jumping Bert's helicopter. Speaker 1 Must be nice, yeah. Is there a movie that you worked on or ATV show, but probably a movie I would imagine that you think never got the credit deserved, like it was some movie you love that just never made it or or. Speaker 2 Yeah, there was one that I did with Paul Newman. Paul Newman directed it. It wasn't in it. OK, it's called the Shadowbox. Speaker 1 Never heard of it. Speaker 2 Yeah, Nobody. Ever. Speaker 1 Heard you. You were the operator. Speaker 2 I was operator, but he was it was about people dying of cancer and that's why it never made it. But Paul was the director and he was great to work with. Wasn't. Yeah. And it it it was a good movie, but it never made it because of the what it was about. Speaker 1 Who shot it? You remember? Speaker 2 A guy named Adam Hollander. Speaker 1 Oh, Adam Hollander. Speaker 2 He shot Midnight, Cowboy. Speaker 1 Yes, that's why I know his. Speaker 2 Name and he's a very good friend of mine, just a great guy. I did two or three movies with him and he was, we used to just screw with him all the time. He was from Poland, he was Polish and just a great guy. Speaker 1 Cheech and Chong's next movie you got to have some stories from. Speaker 2 It was terrific. And the DP, who kind of dropped out of sight was King Baggett. Yeah, Who's? He started as a news cameraman and somehow got the movie of it. One of those guys must have liked him. But yeah, I was the camera operator. It was great. They were, they weren't big drug addicts. I think they smoked a lot of pot and stuff like that. But they were in shape. They loved to work out. And every Friday night after we'd wrap, we'd have a big party. You know, the margaritas and the IT was just fun. That's great. Great time. Speaker 1 Yeah, location shows back then were basically just a constant party. Speaker 2 Right. This, yeah. This was actually at Universal. Wasn't, Yeah. But. Speaker 1 In general though, location. Speaker 2 Shows. Oh God, yeah. I'm not a big drinker anymore, but in back in those days, Oh my God, yeah. Speaker 1 Were people, were people drinking on set? Absolutely. Speaker 2 Really. And you'd come in the more I remember first when I did work for my stepfather, you'd walk in the morning, You know, that Real whiskey breath, you know, the grips and stuff. They all smelt like that. Wow. You know, But that's kind of gone away, I think. Speaker 1 It's gone away. It's or if it hasn't gone away, it's been pushed back to, you know, it's not as open as it as it. Speaker 2 Was and drugs were a real big thing, but I never did drugs, so I was OK with that. Speaker 1 Was it? I mean that's I've heard, I've heard the stories of of, you know, the the, the camera, the film, the film tin going around with cocaine on it and people just. Speaker 2 Absolutely. Really. Absolutely. In fact, I told you about Julia Phillips, who's now his past. But I lived with her for a couple of years. She was a huge drug addict. Speaker 1 And and and there's a lot of people back then, right. It was, I mean and and was it was production buying this. Speaker 2 They they had no choice, you know, and. Speaker 1 So production would literally buy cocaine. Speaker 2 For no. But Julia would buy it. She was the producer. She would buy it and then she would give it to her a DS, you know, and they'd be all, you know, they had funny ways to do it. They would blow it on each other's mouth and stuff like that. But I told her one time, I said, you know, you're nothing but a drug addict. She said, Well, you're nothing but a wino, which is kind of true, kind of the truth. Speaker 1 It's a different world, There's no. Speaker 2 Question. She was brilliant too. She did four major movies, yeah, and I can't think of the name of them now, but close Encounters was like. Speaker 1 I mean, that's huge, right? Speaker 2 There, not bad. Speaker 1 Absolutely. What were the hours like back then? Were they crazy? Speaker 2 Horrible, but they still are. Nick on on Grey's Anatomy. He works, you know, 1214 hours. But but but. Speaker 1 Weren't the unions? But weren't you getting crazy money for like, oh, so you're just? Speaker 2 Making a lot of matter. In fact, on The Deer Hunter, I flew from LA to I think Hong Kong and then Hong Kong to Thailand. I was on the clock the whole time, so once I was over 8 hours, you know it was triple time or triple time or something, but they didn't care back in that. Speaker 1 That was just, that was just the way. That's why those movies cost as much as they did. Amazing, amazing. Someone who's coming up as a camera operator, now they're starting out as a camera operator. You got any advice for them? Speaker 2 Just practice on the wheels, I think is the best it. It's not the same, you know, once you get there, it's a little different. I remember I used to always have problems when somebody would be running at you, you know, to, you know, their head would go on or yeah, but yeah, you just practice. And I think the more agile you are, the more athletic you are, the better off you are, you know? That's sure it's yeah, I would just practice a lot and I wouldn't move up unless you knew the DP was backing you. Because of the DP wasn't backing you, you wouldn't be around. I mean if he wanted to get rid of you and have somebody else come in you know that's that's that could be easily done. But if the if you think the guy was backing you, or if the guy asked you to move up, then I think you had a real good shot. Speaker 1 What about? What about advice for the politics of being an operator? Speaker 2 I just think you'd just have to play it straight, you know, just, you know, just, you know, talk to the director, talk to the DP and and you pretty well figure out who's who's what and. Speaker 1 Be smart. Speaker 2 What? Yeah, just be smart, yeah. Speaker 1 Yeah. Do you remember back back when you were doing close Encounters, back when you were doing, you know, all all these these great being there and and Deer Hunter and whatever, were there other than sort of makeup and hair and wardrobe? Were there any women in any of the departments? Speaker 2 We had a couple gals in camera but very few. I think 2. Leslie Hill was one, which was that rare. Yes. Yeah, there wasn't anybody. Girls. I can't think of the other departments either be able to make up and hair was. Speaker 1 Yeah, you never you've never seen a a woman who's a grip. Speaker 2 I did towards when I started doing sitcoms. Speaker 1 Yeah, I started doing sitcoms. Speaker 2 Then somewhat. Electricians, yeah. And they were damn good too. Yeah. Speaker 1 Oh, absolutely. It's just they just didn't get the chances by then. It's great that it's changed a little bit. Yeah. We were walking outside in Panavision over by the, and they call it the Pana Bar. The coffee bar, Right. And you saw all the cameras, right? Tell me about the camera that you found there. Speaker 2 What I would saw over there and I heard that my name was on it, but I noticed I didn't see my name on it. But that was the first Panaflex that came from Panavision. And it was like, it was like the Steadicam actually, it was, well, the PSR was this big and the Panaflex was this big. And I remember when Jordan first saw the Jordan Cronoworth first saw the Panaflex. They said how can we improve it? And Jordan says give me a lens with a handle on it. But yeah, that was the first Panaflex. They sent one to me. Speaker 1 How many were there at that time? Speaker 2 Two, I think maybe, but they sent one to me. Speaker 1 And one what? What movie? Speaker 2 On Sugarland Express and one to Papillon. And when I got mine, I gave that before I even used it. I gave it to Johnny Connors, who was my assistant, I believe from Chicago, and he took it in an old barn and we had four magazines and I think three of them scratched, so I sent those back immediately. Speaker 1 And there probably weren't that many magazines. Speaker 2 No existence and I don't think there was 1000 foot, I think there were 400. Speaker 1 Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 But Zig, maybe I had two, but Zigman said screw it, let's use it. And we did some of the shots inside the car in Sugarland immediately. You know, he wanted to use it right now, whether it scratched or not. He was just, he was. It was like it reveled. It was like your steady Cam. Speaker 1 And was that the first time you could, you could put a 35mm camera up on your shoulder? Speaker 2 Absolutely. There was a there was a this is a good story. There was a 35mm sound camera that was an airy, but it had this long blimp tomb. Did you ever see one? Speaker 1 Of those, this is the BL1. Speaker 2 No, it was something before that. And you put the camera in there and it was a long throat. You'd have to thread it up. I hated it. And actually on Sugarland, one of the stunt gals who I was kind of seeing, I put the camera right at the end. And I told her, I said if you run over that camera, I'll take you out to dinner. And she did. She she bashed it. It was just. Speaker 1 Oh well. Speaker 2 Just a pain in the butt. It's just took forever to load it. And it was noisy and it was it was this big. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I bet they have one around here somewhere in the archives. Speaker 1 Yeah, so, so, so this was really unbelievably revolutionary. And was was, was the optics better than than? Speaker 2 It was perfect. It was just great, yeah. Speaker 1 That's amazing. Yeah. So when you you were given one of two in existence, did that? Did that freak you out? As if you know. Speaker 2 No, I was pretty pretty up on that stuff. You know I just whatever makes it easier or better. I was go I was. Speaker 1 Gotcha. Now Sugarland Express I was reading has something, and I don't remember I I saw the movie so long ago, like so long ago, but there was something about it's the first time there was a car. There was a shot in a car that went from the back seat to the front seat or something like that. Speaker 2 Well, that was probably when we had the PAN AFLEX. It was probably when we would pay, you know, we the car would come up alongside, you know, we pan through the deal around this and I think I started operating from one deal and I'd send it to to Zigman. Speaker 1 Oh, this was a hand off, Yeah. Speaker 2 But it would close on a tripod. It was on a tripod. Speaker 1 It was on a tripod. Interesting. Wow, that's amazing. That's incredible. So you were basically using the first paniflex that there was. Speaker 2 It was the first, yeah, Paniflex, well, you saw it. Speaker 1 Yeah, that's incredible. That's incredible. Speaker 2 And I had when I when This is how Panavision was in those days when when we sent the camera back got Chuck, the guy that do you know who got Chuck is. Speaker 1 The name sounds. Speaker 2 He was the he was the president of Panovic. He was the originator of OK, gotcha. And he would call me up and say, tell me everything you would need on that camera to fix. Yeah. And there was like a little I built that little Lynch well, when I sent it back, I had a piece of cardboard. So you know, the sun would hit the, the meter, the. Speaker 1 Oh, oh, so you could you could see it. You could see the foot. Speaker 2 It would. It would shade it. Speaker 1 So then they they recessed it a little bit. Speaker 2 Yeah. And then there was a deal where you could hit that thing in the back the the 24 frame thing and this would get in there. So you couldn't, couldn't. Speaker 1 Oh, those two little like knobs that come up and hold it in place, so that. Exactly. But those are the things you don't know till you have it on in real world, right? You don't think about them. That's amazing. So, and you were also telling me the back then, tell me where, what was Panavision like back then? Speaker 2 Well, we went to do the Eddie Rio and I were going to be the assistants on McCabe and Missus Miller and to be do on Panavision. You were a big time assistant then you got extra money and everything for it was called I Forget, but you get like a dollar more because you've using your new Panavision. But it was in West Hollywood. There was one employee and we went there and the the cases were all lined up and we loaded up. We thought we were the big, big. Speaker 1 Shots. That was the big deal. Speaker 2 And I guess Sigmund said I want to use Panavision and that was it. But Panavision I think was just kind of starting and. Speaker 1 Sure, they must have been. Yeah, that's amazing. Speaker 2 And then they moved over here, you know, to the other building, I think. Speaker 1 Yeah, And then they got two, and they're on different coasts and whatnot. Do you remember the first time remote heads became sort of normal? Speaker 2 Yeah, I used on Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. I used the Luma for the first time. Yeah. And. Speaker 1 Was Andy Romanoff with you? Speaker 2 I think he was. Speaker 1 What was what was was that just mind boggling what you could do? Speaker 2 With it, Yeah, yeah, do. Speaker 1 You remember it? What did it? It worked well. Speaker 2 It worked great. Yeah. I remember the shot I did and everything. What was the shot? It was in front of the whorehouse and Dolly was coming out and then we panned around and actually Dolly too, I think. Speaker 1 And and is it is it that you there was be no other way to do that before that or? Speaker 2 Probably was a way to do it, but it was it was new stuff and we want to get it, you know, out there and use it. Speaker 1 Would you? Would you do that with like a Titan on a on? Speaker 2 A probably kid. Speaker 1 Driving a Titan or something like that, yeah, I was just. Speaker 2 But the thing about the Luma, I think it had a video camera on it. Yeah. Does that sound right? Speaker 1 I I. Speaker 2 I think it had a video. It's a little. Speaker 1 Bit before my time. So in other words because there was no video assist, there was a video camera essentially next to it. So it was like looking in parallax. So you were could be guessing what it was or whatever. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, John Toll was telling me about the IT was whatever. I don't remember what camera it was, but with the rack over system where you have. Speaker 2 The BNCR. Speaker 1 Yeah, the BNCR, yeah, yeah. Where you had to actually, you know adjust the eyepiece for every every lens and. Speaker 2 And then you had parallax, you had a viewfinder, and you had little cams you put in. Speaker 1 Cams. That's what it. Speaker 2 Was and you'd go, you know, move this focus in and move the thing in. Speaker 1 It's incredible to me that anything was in focus and anything was in frame. Speaker 2 I The first picture I ever did was or big picture I did was. It was in Japan with Donnie Peterman who is one of my best friends who the greatest guy ever. But we used to be in CR over there and you know, I can remember getting a few things that shouldn't be in the shot, in the shot, you know, it was, it was really cool that. Speaker 1 That's fantastic. What other what other shows did you work on that you haven't talked about that were just great? Speaker 2 I can't remember. In fact, I started looking at my IMDb this morning and I went Jesus. Speaker 1 It was a lot, right? It's impressive. It just goes on, actually. It's a career. Speaker 2 I was impressed with myself. Speaker 1 Back when you were operating in these things with Vilmos and Sugar Land and this and that and the other, was it a small enough industry that kind of everybody knew each other? Speaker 2 God, I think it was in those days. Yeah, you kind of knew. Yeah, I would. Speaker 1 Say, the more I talked to to these people who came before me like yourself, it's like it's sort of everybody just knew everybody and people were just starting out. These people that I think are massive people were just starting out. Yeah. Oh, oh, you know what I actually wanted to ask you, funny lady. Speaker 2 Oh, a great story, Yeah. Speaker 1 Great. I figured there's got to be good stuff. Speaker 2 Great story. Well, we got in there and we'd just come off something big too. And I can't remember what it was, but Zigman and Barbra Streisand just didn't get along. And I remember we were pre lighting her one day and they almost asked her to sit down on this apple boxer, get up on something and Streisand said, what? The camera doesn't go up. And I went, oh oh boy. So we did this opening shot of those all black dancers and the song was, it's going to be a great day. Then I'll never forget the song. So the next day we came in and everything was very after. We shot all day and it was very quiet. And I saw him come in and take Zigman out the back door. They fired him right then and there, and when I saw dailies, all you could see of it's going to be a great day is their white teeth. Oh. Speaker 1 Geez. Speaker 2 So it was under and he could have got screwed, you know? Speaker 1 You don't know what happened. Speaker 2 But in those days he was forced developing 2 stops and flashing and doing everything that Sigmund did. He could have something could have gone gone wrong, you know. But then Jimmy Wong, how the great old cameraman came in. Speaker 1 You work with James Wong? Yes. Oh my gosh. Speaker 2 And in fact, Mike Genie was there too. Speaker 1 How old was he at that point? Speaker 2 I don't remember. He is an old man. I was a kid, but they brought him in and I had to stay there because his operator wasn't available. So I had to stay with him for like a week, stuff like that. So it was pretty interesting. Speaker 1 What was he like? Speaker 2 He's great. But I remember Mike Genie, myself, Cal Roberts, were all on it, another assistant. And we'd all just bought houses and we all just had been fired. And we were walking off the lot together and we were thinking, oh geez, what's next? Speaker 1 Oh my gosh, yeah, that's amazing. Speaker 2 Yeah, we only lasted a day on that. Wow. Her Zigman only lasted a day. Wow. It was. It was fun. Speaker 1 That's incredible. Speaker 2 Really fun. Speaker 1 I mean, do you remember James Wong Howe coming in and you thinking, Oh my gosh, this is James Wong Howe? Speaker 2 Yeah, he was very impressive then, too. You know he already won a couple of Academy. Speaker 1 Awards and and was this at the time where they were still using like arc lights and whatnot? Speaker 2 Sure. I used arc lights on The Goonies. Yeah, really. I had a bunch of Arc lights on. Speaker 1 It and and for people who people who may not know tell to explain what an arc light is. Speaker 2 Arc light where you have a positive and a negative and you strike it and the whatever the charge electrical charge is what gives you the light. Speaker 1 So it's basically almost a fire inside this thing. Speaker 2 It is a fire. Speaker 1 And there was a. There was like a smoke stacker. Yes, Chimney. There was, Yeah. So were the sets just unbearably hot? Speaker 2 No, because on The Goonies, it was stage 16, which is in fact, when you they would yell lunch, we'd have to go 10 minutes early just to get the guys down off the grids. Oh, gotcha. It was like 100 feet up to those things, Yeah. Speaker 1 Well, the guys who were up there must have been, must have been burning up, 'cause all the heat went. Speaker 2 Up I took Julia, my producer friend on close Encounters, up into the grids one time. Speaker 1 You couldn't pay me enough money to. Speaker 2 And I said to her, these are the guys that really are the hard workers. She couldn't believe it. Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah. No, no. Speaker 2 I and the and that it was so hot there that they're all working in their underpants and they had like ice up there and you know. Speaker 1 Oh my God. Speaker 2 It was deaf. Speaker 1 That was a different time. Speaker 2 It was a different time, but it was worth it. Speaker 1 The Rose. Speaker 2 The Rose was actually the best helicopter shot I've ever done in my life. Speaker 1 What was it? Speaker 2 It was right on her last concert and I had the best pilot at the time was. Speaker 1 It her. This is Bette Midler, yes. Speaker 2 Yeah, and she was on the stage and it's where she has a drug overdose. Speaker 1 Such a long time since I've seen. Speaker 2 It but yeah and she and it was the shot starts I was the the she's down on the stage down below and it starts and you hear the the music going and all these people are going like this and I came around. Speaker 1 There's a stadium full of thousands of people. Speaker 2 Which were paid so. Speaker 1 Extras. And she was. I'm sure she probably did a little bit of a concert for him or something. Speaker 2 Of course. And we got did the whole shot coming around and then just I was on the back of her, you know, doing it. But it was great helicopter. Is this why? Speaker 1 Are you on a like a Tyler Mountain or something like? Speaker 2 That it was a it was another. It wasn't the Tyler, but it was another one like I forget. Speaker 1 But you're actually manually operating the camera. Speaker 2 And I did a lot of did a lot of helicopter work and then I got known for it and I did a lot of commercials for with my pilot and. Speaker 1 And did you get into that just because you're on a show and they want a helicopter and they? Speaker 2 Don't know. I just like the helicopter stuff. Oh, you know why I'm thinking about it now? Don Morgan, who's still alive, a great DP. The first show I was on, I think I remember I saw this helicopter land and Don Morgan was the operator. And he got out and I said to myself, I'm going to do that someday. That's, I think, really. What, what what started my helicopter work? Yeah, I did a lot of it, especially on Beale Stryker and stuff. I did all kinds of helicopter stuff, which was great. And I had in my own pilot, Bert. Bert had a ranch foreman that he sent to helicopter school, but he was real talented and Bert had his own helicopter so we could do any shot we want, you know, That's amazing. Yeah, was great. Wow, wonderful. And you know what I used to make? And I was the hottest camera operator, $25.00 an hour. Speaker 1 $25.00 an hour and that was a good was that was $25.00 an hour what the union was paying or you you negotiated above the rate. Speaker 2 I think I negotiated above the rate and then I'd get a box rental too. Yeah, In those days in the I was. Speaker 1 The box rental for something, actually. Speaker 2 Or they would ask me what's in the box and I'd say these grants and then you get like 2 or 300 bucks extra, that's. Speaker 1 Fantastic. Yeah. And was it hard to make deals with the producers? Was it? Was it? Speaker 2 Depends on if they wanted you. Yeah. And it also you know you know when you try and get your name, your the credits on the on the deals, you didn't get that until they wanted your name. Once you, they wanted your name for, you know, to say we got a good crew here, I got you. Then you'd get it, but you wouldn't get it. Speaker 1 And what, what was was, was the Union beneficial to you back then? Was it? Speaker 2 Yeah, well, it had to be, because he couldn't do anything without it, you know? Speaker 1 But what about, I mean, you know, as far as you know, just what was the union like back then? Were you involved in it or? Speaker 2 Not at all. Just this. I've never been involved in anything. The only thing I really wanted to be in was the Academy and I once I got in the Academy I was, you know, I didn't want to be in the the ASC or the this that, but. Speaker 1 You got in the Academy for for friends or for television? Speaker 2 No, I got in the real Academy, Film Academy. And the interesting thing about that, I'd done a whole bunch of movies and then I started doing sitcoms and then I I applied to get in the Academy, which is unlike me. I, you know, but I wanted to get in and they, they only vote like once or twice a year. And my key grip, I thought I was talking about, I said I don't think I got voted in. And my key grip was good friends with Conrad. He said, oh, you're in. I talked to Conrad last night and he said they voted you in. And that was the biggest. I think I got in in 96 or something like that. But I really wanted to be a part of the Academy. That's pretty. Have you seen the museum? Speaker 1 I haven't been yet, but but what I have done, what I have done there, which I highly recommend, is they have a theater that is the nicest theater I've ever been in. I don't. Speaker 2 Think I got into. Speaker 1 That it's it's well they they have movies that they show which which you can get well you you can probably. Speaker 2 Remember. Speaker 1 Actually, well, you're a member so you can get it free. But so I went and saw what did I see? I took my family and I went and saw Goodfellas there. Speaker 2 So you actually have been to the museum? Speaker 1 I've been to the theater. I I mean, I've been to the building. I haven't been through the museum. Oh, I see. I need to go. But. But what I was going to say was a it's a fantastic theater. We have an actual projectionist who knows what he's doing. And the bigger thing for me is, look, I obviously like everybody else. I stopped going to movie starring COVID. But the reality is I stopped. Yeah, but I stopped before that because I was so tired of people being on their phones and people talking and whatever. And the thing about the Academy Theater is everybody who's there wants to be there. Oh, I see. You know, so like Goodfellas. I mean, I don't know if you know this, but Joe Pesci's mother is played by Scorsese's mother in the. Speaker 2 Movie. I didn't know that. Speaker 1 And so when she came out, everybody in the theater clapped because they knew who she was. I mean, these are people who love movies, so it really is. Speaker 2 You know, an interesting thing and which I did the aerials and the right stuff. Speaker 1 We gotta talk about the right stuff. Speaker 2 The the when I was doing the aerials, my boss was, oh shit, Jaeger. General Yeager. You know who he is. Speaker 1 What you mean You mean he's the Chuck Yeager? Speaker 2 Yeah, he was my boss. Speaker 1 Because you Chuck Yeager, the the no, he wasn't an astronaut. The the test pilot. Speaker 2 He was never an astronaut. Speaker 1 You know, he yeah, there was a whole thing. That's what the whole movie. Speaker 2 But he did. The aerials. He, he and they I hooked. Or Caleb had me go out and have lunch with him first to see what we were going to do. Speaker 1 The actual Chuck Yeager. Yes, one of the coolest people in the history of all time. Speaker 2 T-shirt and Levi's and everybody was doing this. And I had actually read his book. Wow. Yeah, it was. He was. Speaker 1 What was he like? Speaker 2 He was great. He was just down to earth. I'll tell you a story about we the studio made a mock up to go under and did you see the movie? Yeah. Speaker 1 Are you kidding me? Speaker 2 Went underneath. It was supposed to be the thing that they released. Speaker 1 Yes. Oh, to drop the plane. Yeah. What was the name of the plane that he broke? The sound barrier. Speaker 2 X1 or something Or something. Anyways, so Chuck Yeager was there and they brought this this plane and the the, you know, the the bill at the studio. And Chuck Yeager said, OK, somebody stand on this wing and somebody get up on that wing boom and broke. So you know, and they were going to put it underneath the BB 29. Speaker 1 He he basically was stress testing it. Yeah, because he broke. Because by the way, he's a test pilot, that's what test pilot he. Speaker 2 Said Jager, then said, OK, I want the FAAI want Warner Brothers. I want this and I want that. And when I, you get this act together, give me a call. And he walked out of the room, but oh, and I that's what I was getting to on the right stuff. Yeah, he was in the movie. Did you know that? Speaker 1 I didn't. Speaker 2 Know that he played the janitor in in the whatever that bar was that they all go to. Well, he played the janitor. Speaker 1 I can't believe I had, no. Speaker 2 He was back there with a broom. Speaker 1 That's so great. Speaker 2 Isn't that great? That's and in fact I was talking to somebody the other day. Oh, this guy from Ireland that came out well, he knows everything there is about movies. I said, you know that Jaeger was in the. He said yeah, he was doing the the deal. Speaker 1 That's so great. Yeah. So did you just do aerials on the On the Right Stuff or do you? Speaker 2 No, I did the stuff in the Cow Palace. Speaker 1 You were operating. Speaker 2 Operating, yeah. We had about 5 cameras in that, yeah. And then I think I did some other stuff, but yeah, I did. I had a a Learjet and I had AF1. Oh no, I didn't have AF105. I had AB20B25 that I had a airy set up at the back and is the one that the guy went out in that one movie down there and died. So I built this, you know, when I go down the tube, which there was no bubble, it was just my camera. Speaker 1 I was in the tube that like it's almost like a like where the gunner would be in. Speaker 2 Exactly, but they didn't. There was no plastic there. It was just an Aeroflex and death. So yeah, but I would hook up to that. Speaker 1 And you're sitting behind it, yeah. Speaker 2 Oh my God. And then they would, I would have communications with the F1O4 and I'd tell the guy to rotate and I'd have, I'd be talking to the pilot and I'd had I'd be into a 250 on him, and as fast as I could zoom back, that fucking thing would go by. Speaker 1 Because it was just that. Speaker 2 Fast. It was that fast. And I would just, you know, and then I had a shot in there. I hate to keep talking. Speaker 1 No this I. Speaker 2 Love this. There was a shot in there that they wanted me to do out of a Learjet because the camera was on the top of the Learjet and we had to get in what he wanted to see full pipe of the F1O4 and they wanted him to hit the afterburner and the shot was he wanted to see it turn red. Speaker 1 Oh, you're saying the, the, the exhaust? Speaker 2 The exhaust and the the pilot at the time was this Clay Lacey, this incredible pilot. He said we can do it, but he says, you know, soon as he hits that afterburner, he's got to knock us. Speaker 1 Right out there and and this is a this is a a movie pilot or this is like an Air Force pilot. Speaker 2 No, this guy was just a private pilot. Like a private pilot, But he was like the best, Yeah, known. Speaker 1 Pilot. Oh, so you're saying, in other words, to to get a close enough shot of it, he would have to physically be so close to your plane that when he hits the afterburner? Speaker 2 Exactly. Speaker 1 It would. It would knock your plane out of the sky or? Speaker 2 Something like that, yeah. So I worried about that for weeks of when I had to do that shot. Yeah, but we did it. We got it done. And it didn't really. It wasn't that turbulent. Speaker 1 Oh, OK all right. Now, you didn't do that. An unbelievable shot where Jaeger's character comes walking out of the out of the fire did. Speaker 2 You. No. I wish I did. Speaker 1 That is one of the greatest shots. Speaker 2 You mean when the thing crashed? Speaker 1 The thing crashes in it and and he just. Speaker 2 Paramhoots out or. Speaker 1 Something. But then there's that, there's that, you know, I don't know, 1000mm shot where everything is. Speaker 2 So compressed and he comes. Speaker 1 Walking off? Brilliant. Speaker 2 But Caleb thought I was this hot operator 'cause I'd met Caleb when he was like 19 or 20 years. Speaker 1 Old. Speaker 2 Yeah, and he was going then I thought he was going to do it. It was like a a high school deal or something, 'cause it was called the Black Stallion and he was going over. And I actually, I helped him. Speaker 1 Where was that? Speaker 2 It was in Sardinia, I believe. Speaker 1 Sardinia, OK. Speaker 2 And then when he came back here, I helped him finish up a couple scenes. That's. Speaker 1 A beautiful movie, yeah. Did you ever get to work with your son? Speaker 2 All the time. I couldn't keep him. He would. As soon as I'd get him, he'd get a better job and he'd be gone. So but he that that's the kind of guy he is, It was. Speaker 1 OK, working, working together. Speaker 2 Oh, he was great. In fact, I had him operating on evening shade, I think. Speaker 1 Oh, yeah. Oh, Burt Reynolds, right. Yeah, Yeah. Speaker 2 And yeah, he was on two or three of things, but he was always. Speaker 1 Charles during was in evening shade, right? Speaker 2 Charles during I probably did 6 movies with. Speaker 1 So you you know, you know Charles Derning's deal with world what he did in World War 2. Speaker 2 Right. I know I was. Speaker 1 I was working with Jamie Cromwell really, and Charles Derning. I don't remember what show it was anyway, but Charles Derning was a guest actor and Jamie came over and said, you know, he's the second most decorated, you know. Speaker 2 Do you know that you ever seen that Scary's guy? Speaker 1 On his neck? No, no. Speaker 2 Yeah, there's a Bay and a guy baying in. No, he's told that. Speaker 1 Story From what I understand, after Audie Murphy, he's the second most decorated. Speaker 2 He was at the D-Day, evidently. Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's unbelievable. Speaker 2 But he was just a great guy. Just. Speaker 1 A quiet super quiet nice guy lovely man. I mean and but but but you know Jamie Cromwell came over and and and said that and he and he told me sort of some stories about what what darning had done and it's just like you got. Speaker 2 To be his funeral was more of a military funeral than anything else, of course, and had some people there that you know that it told the. Speaker 1 Story that it served with him, right? Yeah. And actually I asked 'cause I apparently, and I always thought this would be great to be in. Apparently there's. I don't know if it still happens. There's there's one of these legendary poker games that happens every once in a while. I've heard all these old and just Jamie Cromwell and Charles Durning. You told me a couple other people like, you gotta be kidding. And he said, yeah, it's great. We don't talk about, we don't talk about the business at all. We just play poker and have a good time. Speaker 2 Angie Dickinson's in on that. Speaker 1 Deal. That's that's so cool. And he was saying, though he said, yeah, he never talks about any or talk, you know, about any of his experiences. It was just just a different generation, right? Speaker 2 Just a yeah, just a great guy. Just yeah, I've. I'll bet I've done 5 movies with. Speaker 1 Him. What other movies did you do with him? Speaker 2 I did stick. He was in stick. I did. I think we oh, he's in whorehouse. Speaker 1 Oh, sure. OK, Yeah, of course he's the mayor or the governor. Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the one of the times that I used the lumacrine. Yeah, on that, when he did his. Speaker 1 Side shot? Yep. Speaker 2 Oh, dance, a little side ship. But yeah, I did. I could go on and on. He was just great. Yeah. And you know when we did that, he probably weighed 300 lbs and the capital had to be 100° inside there. And he did that dance about at least about 10 times. Yeah, and he's he's an old vaudeville dancer, too. So. Speaker 1 Is that right? Yeah, I know he was a boxer as well from one I. Speaker 2 Didn't know that, but I know he was a boxer, quite talented. Speaker 1 Guy just an amazing guy and and and just and sort of the the quietest most sort of unassuming person. Speaker 2 And one of Bert's best friends. Speaker 1 What? This is a shot in the dark, but you never worked with Jerry Lewis, did you? Speaker 2 I I took a class from him. Speaker 1 What? What class? Speaker 2 My and he I, in my opinion he didn't know what the hell he was talking about because I was just getting started and he had this huge ego and my wife's best friend was his secretary and I heard he was going to do this class at Warner Brothers in a classroom. So I said I'm in. I just want to hear what he has to say and about actually what he would do is he said I got want you guys to go see this movie bring me the tickets. I'll pay you back for it, which was a pretty nice guy. But I asked him some stuff about depth of field and stuff like that. He had no. Speaker 1 Wait, sorry. So this class was just about filmmaking in general, and was it at a school? Speaker 2 Or it was at Warner Brothers. It was a Warner. It was his deal. It was his ego, really. You get a bunch of people in there talking about himself. Speaker 1 As well, I gotcha. Speaker 2 And I I went to about three or four class, but once he didn't know, he couldn't tell me about depth of field and stuff like that. I said, I you don't know, he might be a great actor and a great comedian, but I don't think he knows about that much. Speaker 1 Just because you mentioned it earlier, I I, I just want to understand it a little better. So you're saying that you would go home at the end of the day and then Warner Brothers would call you up and say tomorrow you're going to stage 12? Speaker 2 That was universal. Speaker 1 Or universal. Speaker 2 Yeah, They would either come down to what you were working on and tell, you know, to report to stage, you know? Speaker 1 So you'd be on stage 12 doing whatever, and then the next day you'd come back to stage 12 and they go, no, you're not here, you're on stage 42 doing this other and you'd be with a totally different crew. Absolutely. And and would you even know what it was? Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it said. So on the there was a sheet that you would go in at night and have all the cameramen. Speaker 1 At the end of your day. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And it would be all the in little sign you know they have your name in. Speaker 1 There, so would the camera. So the camera. The DP wouldn't necessarily have their own people for a lot of these things. Speaker 2 First, maybe, maybe just second assistance. Yeah, like that. But yeah, it was. It was a whole different system. Speaker 1 That's a different world, yeah. And and and so you would have no idea what the story was or anything now. So you're literally just going, OK, do I got you in there and. Speaker 2 I actually, I think was a second assistant for six months or more and it never loaded a magazine. Speaker 1 Because it all went to the. Speaker 2 You you put it in the truck and they bring you back loaded magazine. Speaker 1 Because there was a there was a camera. What do you call it? A camera rumor. Speaker 2 Exact. Yeah, yeah. They take it, unload it and send it in. But I thought, Jesus, what if I get And they always sent a couple of extra 1000 footers in case you got to that. I thought, oh, I get that. I don't even know what. I don't even know what's inside the magazine. You. Speaker 1 Didn't even know how to do it, no so so John told told me about he he got a job on ATV show that I forget what it was called the rookies or something. I don't remember what it was called. But anyway, he said he was the 2nd AC and he said it was a formative experience for him because he didn't have to load mags. So all he did was he kept some camera reports and he and and he hit the sticks and then he would stand by the DP and talk to the DP all day about about lighting. And he said that's where he kind of like learned a lot of that stuff. It was a it was a different world. There's no question about it. Any other great actors that you work with? The great old timers? Speaker 2 I didn't dislike any of them, you know. I mean, Warren Beatty was a jerk, but everybody knew that. You know, it just, But I did a couple things with him and we kind of became buddies. In fact, he came on a set one time and left me a little note, you know, which I forget exactly what the note was about, but it was great. Oh, I know he came one time and, you know, was sitting there and he says, Nikki. He says, I think we have a mutual friend, I guess the gal that he was trying to bed down. It was one of my old girlfriends. So we kind of got close after that. Yeah, he was. I like him. In fact. Buck Henry and I, Jack Warden and somebody else. Before Warren built his house, he owned that property and they had there was a tennis court there. So we were all tennis players. But. But Warren wasn't. But we go up there and play tennis every weekend. Practically. Yeah, Jack Warden was a great guy. Speaker 1 Jack Warden was I know the name, but why do I know Jack Warden? What do you do? Speaker 2 Let's see Heaven can wait. Speaker 1 But he he was a cinematographer. Or he was. Speaker 2 No, Jack Warren was an actor. Speaker 1 Was an actor. Speaker 2 But in being there, he played the president. Speaker 1 Oh, I know who Jack Warren is. That's why I know who. Great. OK. Oh, that's great. I'm going through my mental role. You ever worked with Cary Grant? Speaker 2 No, no. But I dated Diane Cannon, who was married to him, you know, and had the kid. The kid? Yeah. Speaker 1 You dated? I dated. You worked on a movie with Diane Cannon or? Speaker 2 Yeah, we I actually dated her. Speaker 1 Yeah. No, but I mean that's how you met on, yeah. Speaker 2 On heaven can wait. Speaker 1 Oh, on heaven can wait. Speaker 2 Remember, she was the wife or something like that. Beautiful gal. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, I think she's like close to 90 now. Speaker 1 She's. She's got to be. I mean, yeah, yeah. Speaker 2 I saw her on. She was a Laker fan and I saw her on Lakers. Speaker 1 Jack Nicholson, yeah. Speaker 2 Work with him. Never L1 shot. In fact the shot was a handheld shot. I remember the DP was John Alonzo. John Alonzo, sure. And I had a handheld deal and there was like 4 cameras in there. Yeah, but I got to laughing real hard and and I kind of screwed the shot up. But he was a great I I wouldn't wish I could have worked with him. I. Speaker 1 Yeah, that it's. Speaker 2 Paul Newman was the great one though, But. Speaker 1 You work with him as a director, you work with him as an. Speaker 2 Actor No, I never did. But after we finished that movie, he, the rap party was at the Sagebrush Cantina and we all got there and he said OK, you guys, enjoy yourself, get drunk and then come back into this other room and I'll show you what I really like to do for a living. And we went back there, sat down. It was all about Paul Newman Racing. Oh, OK. He was a real good. He was a sports Carter. Yeah, he was a real good driver. Speaker 1 So what he was showing you, what film of it or whatever? Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a whole like a documentary on. Wow. Speaker 1 So, and as a director, I'm assuming he was great. He knew exactly. Speaker 2 In those days I was making the big bucks. And I remember just before this great scene with Melinda Dillon was in it and she goes crazy, you know, she's something happens and she's all over the place. And he had like this. Yeah. And I remember he looked over me and he said, now let's see whether you you really worth the big bucks. Speaker 1 Because you were so tight. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. Speaker 2 And I did it OK, but I was scared to crap. And you know, in Exorcist too. Yeah, with Richard Burton I would wear long sleeve shirts because my, I'd be, you know, like this waiting for. Speaker 1 You'd be shaking. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. If we didn't get it right, he'd start screaming at us, you know? Wow. Yeah. Speaker 1 And and but hopefully that didn't happen that often. Speaker 2 Not that often. Speaker 1 Any other good Spielberg stories? Speaker 2 I remember I got him, he never knew how to race motor or ride motorcycles and I raced for a long time on Sugar Land. We had a little motorcycle and that. I would go and get magazines and stuff like that and I taught him how to ride it and and he was never off it. Then from then on he was on it. And then years later on Friends or I was doing a sitcom or something and his stepdaughter was in the sitcom and he came in and with his wife, I forget what her name is. Speaker 1 Kate Capshaw. Speaker 2 Kate Capshaw and he I came over and said hi Stephen, he, he said to Kate. This is the guy that taught me how to ride a motorcycle. He didn't say anything about the camera operator. Speaker 1 That's great. That's what he remembers. And so you did close Encounters in Sugarland. Did you do anything else with? Speaker 2 Him, The Goonies, you know. Speaker 1 The Goonies which he was produced. Speaker 2 He was the producer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But every night, Dick Donner, who is my favorite director of all time, the best of all time. Speaker 1 What? What aspect makes him the? Speaker 2 Best He just knew what he was doing. He was a good guy. He was funny. He was loud. He was. Speaker 1 He was like the king of the 80s. Speaker 2 He was the He was the king. And every night we were first up in Astoria, we'd get a call, Dick would get a call, and I'd get a call from Spielberg bitching about something, A shadow here. Or this there or that there, This. Speaker 1 About dailies, you mean? Yeah. Speaker 2 And so Dick said I He said I got this all figured out the whole time we were up there. He would call and get said When I get back to town or when we get back to Warner Brothers, I'm going to create a second unit, ask Steven to direct it. And we did. We never heard from him again. Speaker 1 Because he kept him busy. Speaker 2 He kept him busy and he was happier than hell. And I gotta say, a lot of the great stuff in that movie he did. Speaker 1 Look, he's a he's a a sanely talented storyteller. Speaker 2 Oh God, he's just a great guy. Speaker 1 Well, well, listen, this was absolutely fantastic. Speaker 2 Well, I enjoyed it. I I love talking about myself. Speaker 1 These stories, these stories are absolute gold. And and the the great thing is I think there's a lot in there that that really look, younger operators are going to be entertained by it. There's no question because I'm, I'm just sitting here and listening to it, but I think there's a lot to be had from it. So thank you so much for sharing. Speaker 2 It Absolutely, absolutely. I enjoyed it. Speaker 1 Wow, what an incredible conversation. That was personally just such a treat to sit down with Nick and hear about. Kind of the golden age when I was growing up, really of of operating in the film industry. So many amazing stories. Please make sure to check out the OP website www.theop.io, specifically the podcast page for Nick where you can see a video that I took of him at Panavision explaining the information about the camera they sent him on the Spielberg film. If you like the show, please throw us a five star rating and write up a review and share us with your friends, because that's always a plus and otherwise we'll be back in a few weeks. So until then, thank you for listening.