Donavan Brazier’s Comeback Story: The Long Road Back, Resilience, Injury Recovery And Gratitude To Be Able To Race Again

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Oh, they've got options. Classic root beer, crisp apple, great cream soda, and wild hits like beaches and cream, and now orange cream which has joined the permanent rotation. They even just dropped slim cans for on-the-go-sips and mini cans for when you just want a little bit of a taste. You can grab Oli Pop at Target Whole Foods, Walmart, or go straight to drinkolypop.com and get a deliver to your door. Please make podcasts listeners get 25% off your orders using code Citius25 and checkout. So go ahead, crack open a cold one. One that actually makes you feel great. Oli Pop. Real soda, real benefits, really freaking good. Drinkolypop.com code Citius25. Hello everybody and welcome to the Citius Mac podcast. I'm Chris Chavez and this is my show where I chat with some of the biggest names on the track on the roads within the coaching ranks and across the running industry. Our guests sit down and open up in depth to share their experiences, brilliant insights and vivid snapshots from their professional and personal accomplishments in the sport. Before we hit our interview, you know we love giving the listeners a shout out when they leave us a review. If you want yours to be read, leave us a five star review on Apple Podcasts and let us know why you love this show. Spotify also allows you to leave comments on episodes now, so check that out if that is your preferred podcast player. We'll read those on the show as well. This review comes to us on Apple Podcasts. I don't think I've read this one yet. Citius is the best period. The Citius Mac podcast is the best way to catch up on running news. I always look forward to it from race previews to live shows and recaps. You'll get a great review and maybe a little bit of a laugh or a lot, especially with Eric and Aisha. Been following for the past four years and it keeps getting better. Thank you. Reminder to people, Eric and Aisha now have their own podcast feed where you can check out when they do good morning track and field live from certain events. And then at the same time, they will start recording episodes very soon. They're trying to get their schedule down pat. But if you want your review to be read, drop us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or comment on this episode on Spotify. It's not every day that someone goes nearly three years without racing. Here goes multiple surgeries, parts ways with their training group and returns to the track and drops a 144 in their first 800 meter race back. But that's exactly what Donovan Brasier just did. The former World Champion, former American record holder and longtime face of US Middle Business Running made a stunning return in Nashville this past weekend. Not just running well, but dominating the field and showing flashes of the brilliance that made him one of the most electrifying athletes in the sport. If you follow Donovan's career, you know that the road back has been anything but easy. He's battled injuries, achilles surgeries, a fractured tibia, bursitis and gone more than a thousand days between races. He could have walked away, many wouldn't have blamed him, but instead he chose to keep going. Today we talk about why. What kept him motivated, what it felt like to step back onto the line and how he sees himself fitting into the most competitive 800 meter field, the US has seen in years, and especially where the event is at globally. We'll look back at the highs, the lows, the what ifs and get his take on what's next, not just for him, but for the event that he helped redefine. This is a story about resilience, patience, perspective and the raw talent that refuses to fade. Without further ado, here is Donovan Brasier. Welcome back Donovan Brasier. It feels like over the past couple days, there's been tons of excitement from track fans about your return all over social media. The comment sections have been popping off, but I guess what's it like, I guess being the person at the heart of all of that, that everyone is excited to see back in the sport? Definitely just been a long time coming. When you're injured, you always envision it, and it always is a little different than when you're visionate, but I was just grateful to be healthy again and it has such a warm welcome back. It's been great. Obviously, we want to dive into this past weekend's race, but I feel like it needs to be set up and we have to go back as to how we got to this point because you said it has been a long journey. I guess the starting point really is 2022, the last race before this was July 20, 2022. That's over a thousand days ago. First round of the World Championships where you ran 146, got bounced, but I think at that point, there are already been signs that you've been dealing with like, "Bersides" and that you were injured going into that. You had to buy from the World Championships, but at that point, how bad had injuries gotten and then was that just the straw that broke the camel's back essentially? Yeah, totally. It was like, you said the last race was July 20, 2022, almost three years ago, but it feels like it was so much longer than that. Just because when you're managing pains and managing injuries, I had to buy from the World Championships from three years prior that I was seriously just milking at that point to get to where I was. You know, it was just kind of, I was just, I was longing in my season probably more than I should have. So yeah, it's been like, it's been like three years, but I felt like last time I felt healthy and had a good training block, it's been like even 2021. And like you said, I had the haggle and sting, I had the foot thing after the trial, so I've had a lot of just pickups between now and then and I'm hoping this day kind of freaklier of all that. But yeah, I'm finally thinking on the right path. Not just managing injuries, but just not having them at all. I think that's big. That's huge news. But I guess when you stepped out the track and you jean and then you did the first haggle in surgery, like how bad was it and like, and was it just sort of pushing it at worlds that got it to that point? And I mean, what was your assessment of things at that point? I don't know because I had great staff and great backing. So we tried to get it as best as we can and I wanted to run, I want to race, I want to get out there. I'm kind of nature and probably all runners, but it was just kind of harder to not feel smooth or not kind of feel like you kind of have that rhythmic sign that you usually have when you're racing when you're running. So when I was just out there, like it just didn't really feel right for me, you know, and it kind of progressed from indoor season to outdoor season. That's why I didn't reach much at all outdoor season in 2022. But yeah, I had that first initial surgery and I went on to Colorado for that and that one really helped, but it didn't help at the same time. Got a second one that kind of helped, didn't help at the same time that I got a third one and Karat North Carolina and Charlotte. And that was the one that was kind of more intensive. Like I knew I was going to have to take more time off. And that was just kind of the one I probably wish I would have started off with. But we're here now, unfortunately, kind of clear while that stuff. So it's been great. Yeah. Where did you see kind of things trending? You said 2021 was the last year that you felt like fully healthy and fit. And then from there, you know, I remember kind of the approach to that indoor season was Pete had you working on your speed and it was the 400 at USA is making the four by four team, you know, at the world indoor championships. Where did you want to take things from there? And then when was the first sign of things going off the rails a little bit? Yeah, that's a great question. Because we came back relatively quickly from that Olympic draw since 2021 and it's 2022 season indoors. And I think it just kind of felt like a clean slate at that point. It was trying to figure things out. Like I had the surgery. I got a they like loosened up some space in my left foot and then they put a screw into my left ankle because that was starting to get split open a little bit. So that got off you the fast, I was good for while for the indoor season for the most part. I never really got to that point. I was able to build a great train block from all that, you know, like because then I started having the haggle singing on right foot. And yeah, I think looking into that 2020 season, we were just trying to stick away from the eight just because of all the stuff that happened the year before and just tried to aggressively attack the universities, which I love. I'm like, I want to be sure I love the idea of racing for is making four by four teams, you know, even if they weren't the strongest teams to make. So I really enjoyed the end of the season, but it was probably like the last stint before, you know, all this happened the past three years that I actually think it's a decent amount of racing and actually be competitive because I raised a 600 that year too whenever I am decent, the up and spoke came Washington and then did the four by four was in the corner at Worlds. So yeah, I think since there was the last time I've actually been able to even train a little bit. I think about just certain, and I did this before I think with fellow Michigan great, Nathan Ritz and Hyne, who just sort of like putting your body on like one of those operating like board games and then just the points of like where certain procedures have been done. So for you, it has it been, I guess, both legs, I think at this point or is it just one? Yeah, no, it's been both. So 2021 was a left leg and I try to explain stuff, but I'm not a doctor. So I might butcher what exactly was the issue, but for my understanding was there was a pinching in the front of it. So we had to clear up that pinching spot in my left leg, but that pinching got so great that it started to, I guess, torque up on the tibia and then tibia starts to split open. Essentially the more I think you run on it. So after the trial, it looked at it, it had already put a screw in it, it kind of sealed it up. So at that point, I got, it was put on the 100% right ago, but then the indoor season kind of all the impact that we were doing the right for I started to get just, I just couldn't really run it properly. And then that's what's been fun to me past almost three years now. Was there a point ultimately, I guess, in the last three years where you considered retiring and like what kept you going? Yeah, I mean, I've been very, very grateful and very, very, Nike's been great to me, I guess is what I'm saying. Like they've been back of his entire time. So it's like if they're, you know, paying me and allowing me to be a professional athlete that I'm going to try to do the light special athlete, whether that I'm racing or not racing or, you know, being trained or not trained. So the fact that they backed me as hard as they did, I really never was a serious option to retire, you know, and it always envisioned that I would come back. I never thought it would take three years to do it. And I still have the long ways to go out, recognize that, but it's just, yeah, it was never really a thing where I was like, oh, looking at other opportunities for the option. That was kind of at least one to be in the track world, maybe focus on volunteer coaching essentially at some point was kind of what I was looking at, but as far as totally retiring, giving up on the sport, I don't think it's a real option. That's one thing that I found interesting, too, just because, you know, in the back channels of things, every contract works around Olympic cycles. And I know like it's a little bit more taboo to talking to specifics of things, but from, you know, seeing you back in a pro Nike kid this time around, you know, it's like, it's clear. You're still with the brand. And I'd be just so curious because you've been with them at your whole entire professional career. It sounds like it was not a like a case where you had to pitch to the sports marketing folks that like, hey, you know, I've still got it. Give me a chance. Like keep this thing going. Like, it was a easy conversation. Yeah, it was like, I was like just waiting for it was like something bad to happen, but it just never happens. I was like, that's awesome. Thanks guys. And they were more concerned about my general health, rather than media's racing. So anytime I talk to the like, my point in context and my guys at Nike that I talked to, they were never just pressing me to run. They're always just like, hey, how you doing? Like we're wide resource is going to five feet, you know, even if it's like psychologists, you know, mental, the things like that. They were just always so supportive of me in that sense. So again, like I never really even thought about quitting because they didn't give up on me. So I really couldn't give up on them at that point. So it was a nice relationship. You don't post a ton on Instagram. You're very, you're much more private than than some other, you know, I think athletes on social media. So I'm curious like, what have you been doing this whole time in the in the three years? A lot of fishing golf. What? Yeah, fishing. I want to get into golf. I'm down in Florida right now. But now I've just been fishing last summer. Thanks for asking last summer. I had a big project. I'm about to have it up in Michigan. So it's been a big chunk of the summer renovating that and it's on a river. So it's a great for fishing down there. I visit my fiancee a lot. She's placed within Elner pride in Orlando. And I'm like in St. Petersburg area. So drive back in 4th. So see you all the time. Yeah, I'm just trying to thank but I still tried to live the life of a track athlete just outside of the whole like show under for the track part. Like I still go to the gym. I try not to get that. I just try to do biking if I could or let to go if I could. So it really time flew but it also was so slow. The same point of fact makes sense. But yeah, I've come ways to keep busy. I didn't really involve myself with like the professional track scene much. Like I didn't know too much that was going on. All-sounding Olympics. Like I believe Santa the guys that made the team and the people that met all and such like that for as far as that. Keeping up with NCM believes are just the top of the guys that are out there now. I just really wasn't paying too much attention to. Yeah, there's obviously periods where you're too hurt to be able to to run. But I guess like were there I guess those moments where you found yourself just by yourself like this is and for the outside people looking in it'd be really funny to just show up to attract somewhere in Florida and see 2019 World Champion Donovan Brasier all by himself just doing workouts. Like was that also just kind of a thing like were there were those times when you just went out and worked out with no sort of set training plan or anything like that just to see where you were at or like when could you've gotten to that point. When I said I did it wrong. I did not run like I just I never I didn't even try to water track the test it. You know, I didn't really have a real um a guided program you know to say the kind of gauge we're on map by any sense. So I was just going to planet witnesses and you know using their elliptical machines and seriously just trying not to get fat essentially. Like because then you're not doing stuff but it was just it was weird and you you need just in to yourself so far from the sport like every year that should not race you and it gets less and less emotional because you're so far from it at that point that you're not like oh like if I was racing I wouldn't have done that. Oh, but it's like I'm not even close to racing. So it's hard even put myself in the shoes of like you know the guys that are so it was kind of a weird feeling for the longest time. I know you said like you weren't following super closely you know NCA is there anything like that but you probably probably gets back to you and you see some of these results of just how fast the 800 has gotten and the evolution of the event. How hard was that to essentially sit on the sidelines and watch the event that you were at the top of just progress without you? Yeah it's like insane. I didn't know that with like for I think it was I don't know what year it was sort of popping up. It might have been even at the earliest last year but just seeing like Bryce and Josh Hoey and Brandon Miller and guys like them one of the times that they're running and you know seeing what it takes to make a team now it's incredible. I mean we saw like the seasons from like 2022 to 2023 like it wasn't the strongest but since then like Bryce has really elevated the game. Brandon's really evident the game. Josh Hoey coming up a world indoor title like 800 is one of the hardest teams to make in my opinion now at USA so it's cool it's definitely humbling and it's definitely it just shows that I have a lot more to go obviously before I can you know keep up with those kind of guys but it's exciting I think for the most part. What do you think about the way people run the actual race has changed if we go back even to like watching back that 2019 race which feels like a long time ago like Marco who is now you know the Olympic silver medalist and threatening the World Record like he was way back there and you were crushing these guys and so the event in a sense like his change where people definitely seem a bit more confident and fearless to not necessarily need to go out and negative split it every single time but the execution of it is different from that 2019. I missed those days because I loved it when Marco is just going out and facing every fight. Marco is so strong of a guy and like we saw in 2022 or the 22-year-olds he can race many sort of way and you know come up in Tories a lot of times but it's cool to see the different race tactics no one quite at least from my from what I've seen has David Risha just gun-detaked it I don't think like I didn't watch the Olympic in a meter finals is the to the Wimgo then to taper it was it more than that was a photo finish yeah was it okay yeah see it so it's I feel like no one's been as dominant as like Ritisha you know in terms of just going out and being able to to take it like that so I think that's exciting about the 8-2 is that yeah we got Marco yeah we got other guys they just a big pool of guys that could come on on top you know so I think that's kind of kind of cool thing about it. Wait so you paid attention to just sort of like the changes but you didn't watch the 2024 Olympic final for the 800. Don't remember my damn ever seen slip suit I'm not sure if I watched the whole thing or not. You got so much to catch up on yeah again I was so far distance from I probably far more ignorant than I should be to kind of what happened there but I know obviously the big things like Bryce running that crazy time in the finals and things like that but you guys far as like who came what where everything happened I'm a little blind to that and it's seen it. For you does Doha feel like it was six years ago and and what are the biggest things that you remember about that race and how joy is it was for you. It does feel like it was six years but it really goes so long go at this point just because of like the group of athletes that were racing then to the group of athletes now like some guys that he's like Marco or so on the game Bryce is obviously still around and a lot of athletes like that but you just see the changing of guards of so many people between now and then and back then 2022 like I was just about I was so ignorant still to the sport I think I had a lot of ways so I was just racing and we had guys running fast times back then to like over manual career and Nigel Amos was putting down crazy times and I didn't really think of much pressure you know leading up to Doha up until like got to Doha and then Nigel then I raised that year so then I was kind of the guy that was supposed to take it at that point and as much as like Doha was seemed like it was like like I was just like so excited I feel like I was so relieved more so than anything just to him because I knew I could do it and I had so many people back in me that whole year leading up to it is my first year with Orton projects at the time and I just really kind of wanted to like prove my worth and just coming off and doing the diamond league final and then coming off the world it was just really really exciting but more so it was just so so much of a relief or so it was kind of weird I think from there like it is kind of just crazy how a year later just like the whole world and and it changed with with the pandemic hitting and just the the shift of what that did for certain athletes certain athletes like for sure like if they They were older like it didn't help them that like everything. had to be pushed back a year. Younger athletes got the extra year to continue developing and training hard. And you were caught somewhere, you were among those young athletes, where things were trending so well, like headed to your name being thrown into world record conversation talks and all that stuff. And I think that with Eric Jenkins now being part of the city's mag team, I remember having a car ride with him at some point where for you, this big thing has been just like the what if, right? Like the what if the pandemic had never hit? What if he had never gotten hurt? How do you kind of look back at just sort of that period and what are the what if questions in your head? And I'm assuming, and you can correct me if I'm wrong. Like part of that plays into why this comeback, you know, is so important for you to just like at least get back out there. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it obviously killed me, not that I haven't even made a little team up at this point of my career. I think that's kind of what you can do. And you know, essentially in this sport and you know, I would say if I have made a Olympic team at this point, I might have not even tried to come back. Like I definitely have certain goals and aspirations I still want to hit. But number one is really just trying to bring a limp and so I was in years to what you try to redo that again. But yeah, it's hard to think about the what ifs, you know, and it's not even the what ifs of like how I would have placed. It's just like the what if if I were to just train a little differently, treat my body a little differently. Just things I probably would have done a little differently in my training to not lead to the point of kind of just being injured and trying to manage injury and things like that. Like me, my team at the time, it was the best I can, you know, given the injuries and the kind of the nags I had. But it was just looking back. It's just so hard to think about well, what if like we didn't race in 2021 at all? What if we didn't do all these things? But it's hard to think about what it's because I guess as a race you wanted, you want to complete, you want to do all these things, you get to race. So yeah, it's just it's hard. I don't really dwell too much on the what is because I could have gotten injured 2020 as well at the Olympic trials or not made another team that or chose some way and did a form. So it's it's hard to think the what is that I don't, yeah, I don't think too much thought on it. So then I guess like as we progress through this comeback, what is the turning point then where you do decide? All right, it's worth going, you know, giving this another serious try and getting back into more structure training. Like how far, like how recent is that kind of dedicated my time and draft kind of more so it starts right? Yeah, it's kind of I was banged up for a long time and reached out to coach Smith, Mike Smith. I talked to him for a little bit about kind of what I want to do. I've talked about where I'm at and really it wasn't too much to tell him because I truly didn't know where I was at with them. So I was like, all right, cool. So I'll go up to Flagstaff and I'll see him. I was kind of, you know, we'll gauge where I'm at from there. And going up to Mike and we had a discussion about kind of what our expectation was and he made it very, very clear and was very adamant about there'd be no expectation. Like he tried to put like this least amount of pressure in the situation as possible. And he's like, it's not going to make him appear like, you don't own anything. There's no pressure on the situation. Like, you know, I think he's happy for me just to be on the track running again. And he tries to provide like the most low pressure environment possible for me, which I appreciate. But at the same time, it's like, I'm coming out there and I'm doing things like I want to do it to the best in my ability. So it's been nice just kind of raising the expectations now that I can kind of see the boy to dip my toe on the water like I've been training the fast like two months now and I able to see what I can do with that kind of training. So now it's kind of he sends like, I'm able to take it a little more seriously and see like, okay, like this can work out. And okay, this can lead to something now that we've kind of raced in okay time. It's time to move the goal possible a bit set different expectations because my longest time, like we talked even months, but yeah, we got a US standard and the awesome to go around USA's go try to run rounds. We're trying to race again. So now that we have that now that we're kind of situating a place where you know, we feel confident what we're doing. I think we just have to re-evaluate things. And it's just it's exciting. You know, again, he's going to try to put his like low pressure on the situation as possible just because that's kind of coding then, but it's exciting to kind of see where we can kind of go from from this point. But like you said, like 800 meters in America has gotten so strong that we're going to have to, you know, just manage our expectations like us. This episode of the City of Smack podcast is brought to you by pillar performance. And I've got to be honest, this is one of those products that I didn't know I needed until I tried it. And now I'm stocked up. I actually started using this last year before the Houston marathon, but never really shared a whole lot about it. I've been using triple magnesium from pillar and it's completely changed the game from my recovery. It's a high strength magnesium supplement designed specifically for athletes and it helps calm your body down and your nervous system so you can actually wind down fall asleep faster and stay asleep longer. 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They wrote in and said, these are the best post run recovery sandals I've ever owned. They truly make a difference in my performance. So whether you're logging marathon miles or stacking track workouts, don't let recovery be an afterthought. Run, recover, repeat with Vellus. Citius Mag listeners get 20% off with code Citius Mag 20 at checkout. Head to Vellusfootwear.com today. What was the starting point or the baseline of your fitness? Like, do you remember, I guess, like what the first workout was and like maybe what whatever you feel comfortable sharing here, just sort of like the, the splits and you're just like, okay, like it must have been either just surprising or shocking in the sense of like, I'm really far behind or surprisingly not as far as wherever I maybe could start from. Yeah, I'm not as terribly far behind. Like it was awful. Like I went to Flagstaff and first down the first time I, like, we were all too training like, like I've been to St. Gritz, like the rest of the guys and does things up there. But I went up to Flagstaff and I'm worth Mike's guys. Like, Nico's out there. I'll be hominid. What he's out there on these guys and I'll be homins coming back from some things that he had me great as well. So I hopped and I think the first thing we did was like repeat 400s. And like maybe 72 or something like that were like season seconds or as and we didn't, I think maybe two sets of fours, what we did. And I was dying. I just completely dying. Like this is where I, you talking about like, did everything about retirement? Maybe I got to take that back. If I did think about retirement, it was doing those workouts because I thought like, oh, I'm never going to get back in shape and get back into fitness. But yeah, I'm never doing that and just thinking, well, just going to be rough. But then, yeah, I think I just kind of kept that at every day. And there's a lot of good guys on like set that train. Like I've seen, you know, price and Hobbes and all those guys out there too. We've hopped into some stuff too. But as far as distance, why is it going to have a long way to go for my endurance? And I've been home all the few times in these workouts. I've found these guys to know that, you know, I definitely must drink up a little bit. And then from there, pain free, like this, this entire time so far. Yeah, pain free. Like it's like Dave McKennery's who I work with. Yeah, yeah, that's very good. on the combat feeling. And obviously the main things by lower foot, like the haggen sings, then the bugging me. But like, I noticed I'm mentioning things like, oh, my hips are a little sore, oh, my quads are sore. And it's like, we don't care about that. Like as long as my Achilles is good, and I'm not like one thing, and I'm smooth, and everything's good. But as far as like, you know, the major issue I've been having pain-free, which has been awesome. - Are there elements to your training that feel different this time around? I guess working with Coach Mike Smith, because I guess you'd been with Pete up until the end of 2023. And even before that, I guess what we've known about just sort of the way you train back then, like you were never, you know, high mileage whatsoever. It's to this day, anytime I go out for like a four mile run, I think about just some interview that you did at one point, where you're just like, there's nothing better than like a four mile run in 30 minutes, and like that's all you need sometimes in a day. And I was like, yeah, I mean, if that's a Donovan does, like I'm all in on that. But I guess like, yeah, yeah, where are you at right now in terms of just mileage, number workouts, and like how different is it now with Mike? - Yeah, so with Pete, I think Pete, every once in a while, I got my 40 miles a week, and he might not know that, you know, I might be sneaking in some mileage to the area. When Eric was staying with me, he knows like three mile runs in the evening at some point, just like real slow pace, so that was fun. But now I'm probably like at maybe 30 miles a week, but it's a lot of it's an altitude. So it's like, it feels like 60, you know? So I feel like I'm getting stronger in that sense. Yeah, he puts a lot of emphasis on making sure our workout days are good. And I don't even know if I'm discussing with him about what I've been doing on the off days, really. Like I think I just gotta go out and do what, maybe other people are doing maybe like a four or five mile run. But yeah, I haven't even been carrying my mileage like that. 'Cause I used to, like, I guess I had a repeat, I used to carry my mileage and I used to almost like, brag about how low it was, because it was nice, but now it's just all about my body. 'Cause like if I feel great, I go over six miles, I'm not feeling tired, I go over four miles, and I don't even total it at the end of the week. But if I had a guess, it'd be between five, 25 and 30 miles now. And then because of this layoff, and the time that you've been away, like there are just new things that have kinda come in. I guess 2019 you already had the dragonflies and like the super spikes, but then from there, then on, like double threshold has become trendy. And by carb, are you in on these things? I, is that what double T is? Is that double threshold? Is that what the guys up and flex stuff? We talk about double T all the time. And no one's been able to properly tell me what it is. And it kinda, yeah. So double T is a new thing. I remember with Pete, like we do, I loved the workout. Craig would do like maybe a five mile tempo, and I'd hop in like 800 oven or 1200 oven, and I love doing those kind of things. And then I went with the flexed out. And Mike and guys, we're doing repeat 400s, like a bar faster pace, and I hate 'em. There's so much harder than like these type of things that we're doing. But yeah, just the workout training, I think has changed you in the past three years from when I haven't been racing. Or like you said, like the spikes are a little different. I haven't had too many opportunities to race in like those newer set of spikes with the airbags in 'em. I think 2021 season, I did a little bit. And this season I'm trying to incorporate them as much as I can. So that's kinda newer stuff. Buy a car, I haven't tried yet. I've heard great things about it. Hard terrible things about it also. So I'm kinda weary about trying it. Yeah, a lot of new things that I'm excited to try out or test a little bit. 'Cause it seems like that's almost the norm now, right? This buy car stuff people are taking there. I think Marco had said that he took it right before the Olympic final for the first time. Maybe he did a workout or something before that, but like for an actual race, like, and then it's been a game changer. So I mean, for me, I'm here and you now. And I like, I see 144 or 70 with no buy car and just getting used to all the stuff. It could be the complete opposite. And just, you know, I've heard wild side effects do it. So I'm gonna try it maybe at a workout or something like that. But yeah, I've heard of it helping between like the 400 up to like the 1500. Is that kind of the range people have work? Yeah, you get away with the 5K, I think. Granted it for the 5K indoors. And so, yeah, you know, it's out of it. I'm in love and just here, just how fresh you are to like all these new things. It's like the double T8. Like, it's wild. Still kind of has it into weird about. I'm stuck in my old ways kind of guy. So I'm gonna be kind of very cautious to trying that kind of stuff out. Yeah. So then, at what point did you feel like, all right, give me the green light to race. And then you, you know, you put this Nashville one on the calendar. I think I talked to Mike, maybe like a month ago, maybe three weeks ago and I was like, hey, like, what's up? And together some good stuff. Like I was able to hop in. Some of Nico's workouts and do some stuff that I'll be having. Not all of Nico's workouts because he does far harbors stuff and I could ever do. But I was starting to do like things that were indicating that I might be able to race there. Like, I don't know where he thought the time gauge might be. I thought he was thinking the time to do that 146 to 150. So he was thinking it might be good to get kind of a buffer meet in between then and for the track rest that I'm doing this next weekend. So I talked to my buddy Craig and those. He came up with this idea from me to come race. One of the races he's racing that Billy took put on up the Nashville. So I was very last minute thing. Billy was really cool about getting me out there and just, you know, being on track again and providing like a low-fresh environment. And yeah, I think I don't know what our expectation was, but I think we raised a little bit faster than we thought we were going to. Like I think what we wanted to do maybe like last weekend is potentially rolling through this weekend. Still not 100% sure. It's been kind of weird. I don't know if he saw the meat. It's very low-key meat. But Billy did an awesome job of putting it on. It like got a word that I certified, which is kind of cool. He had these little toe trophy things that I think he got from Walmart. So I got one of those trophies for the comeback. So it's been really cool to kind of be around the track community again. So when you said that it was maybe a little bit faster than like you expected. I've heard people describe this past weekend's performance as shocking and like so like relieving to see. And what would you have guessed? A week ago before this performance, you'd be like, all right, if this goes well, I would have run X. Like I feel like most people would have been blown away even seeing a 146 from me. This last year. - Yeah, and maybe 146 made a bit of a bot where I expected. Cause they were guys in the face that you know, I got a warrior bottle. Shane Shane is a good runner. Will Sumner obviously hell of a runner. So it's like I'm nervous. Well, you know, racing. Cause I don't want to go up and just blow up in front of these guys too. Yeah, maybe like 146 and fight for a win. I think Mike and I talked about no matter what happens, like fight the last 15. So I think he was maybe expecting me to be dying like crazy to last 150, which was kind of the case, but not too terrible. But yeah, maybe like a 146, I think it's probably within the row. We'll be private guessing. - And then when you see the splits, 52.09 first lap 52.61 second lap, what do you think? - He talks about it kind of shows strength, but we still didn't go out quite fast enough to know if it's strengthened my opinion. Like yeah, 144 like out of that time, I'd like you some of the Intermediator and our days 144, a nothing. Like it's compared to what these guys have been racing. And not to say I'm not grateful for it and being able to come back and racing, I'm so excited. But I just know that there's a lot more to do in order to be competitive with these top guys. But first race back, very, very excited about it. And it's a good starting point. And probably did exceed expectations by a little bit. Yeah. - How do you go about goal setting for yourself like on this comeback? I get you mentioned just throwing out how a USA's qualifier would have checked the box. Well, you got that and you almost sniffed like the World Championship standard. And fans are excited. I'm not ready to hand you the gold medal for the World Championships in Tokyo. But at the same time, it's challenging because you don't want to fall into the trap of comparing yourself to your old self in 2019 and that time period in your life. And you kind of have to take things race by race. And your coach is one of those people who stresses that ultimately of just like it's not about the outcome. Now that this performance took place, how did that change maybe what you're hoping to get at a Portland track festival and then just structuring things in the lead up to USA's which is now guaranteed that you'll be there? - You definitely moved the goal post a little bit 'cause our expectation we had six weeks ago was probably different than what it is now. But I think he's still putting a lot of emphasis on, hey, we're not race short by any means. You know, I ran a okay race and I had no traffic. You know, I was up in front of it at the word about getting boxed in or when we were on around people's way. He put a lot of emphasis on me not being race short which I had 100% agree with that race in three years. So I think we're still grounded enough to know it's like we have a lot more to do but I think this kind of scratches surface to the okay. The expectation of the bar is raised throughout the rest of the year. And you know, we are gonna have new goals and new races that we might be able to get into now that we weren't expecting to. So we just kind of went back and reevaluated what we'll be doing maybe these next six weeks leading up to USA's. Like probably stayed domestically for the most part if I could race a decent up time to go somewhere in Europe. I don't know at this point but for the most part, I think we're kind of, 'cause we were thinking about going on the C-heat for Portland Track Fest Bliss Race. So you know what I mean, even just raising the bar there to try to go with the A-Drooper, the hot one, no time for Portland Track Fest. It's new news to me and even things like that. We're just trying to refigure out and I'll probably go up to Flagstaff now that it shows that it helps out which kind of sucks because I wanted to go back to Michigan or to the cavern but I think Mike is the better idea to go up to Flagstaff so Mike go up to there. But yeah, just kind of reevaluates kind of how we're approaching the next six to seven weeks leading up to USA's. - I think one thing that's fairly common, especially when runners undergo surgery and it's either foot or back or calf or whatever it might be that like there's a concern and it's like, oh, like that's gonna zap my speed, right? And clearly this weekend I think showed that like it didn't go away but was there a period in the last couple of months where There were. was a thought like, all right, like this, the speed is going to be hard to get back. And then every runner's first thought is like, I got to move up in distance, right? And you ran that, you know, fairly decent, you know, 1500 back in 2021. But was that ever entertained as part of like the, the returners? It always 800 definitely never go up in distance. That was the never fun but fun. In fact, the complete opposite was my train of thought. I was thinking if my body came into this training, I'm going down to the 400. I'm going to try to be a volunteer coach at SEC school and just try and hang out with 400-meter runners is literally what my thought process was. So yeah, I never, I never really thought about it in that sense of losing my speed because I always thought if my body gets back to feeling healthy and I get that rhythm back down and that follows the path, I'm going to be as fast as I feel like I was back then. And then you see guys that peaked in the 400 or 200 when they're like 31, like I don't know when MJ got his, you know, when he set his records, he was primed. I think he was like late 20s, I was 30s, I'm not going to say it, right? So when you say these things like that, it just kind of gives you hope and it's like, okay, well, if I develop myself properly, I can come back as fast if not faster than where I was. But no, as far as going up into this sense, I was like, I don't know if my body can handle that. I'm going to stick to my body and we can try to be a boy runner but wind up being an 815 runner. This past weekend was there a part where of going through the race day motions that felt weird because he hadn't done it in such a long time. He was putting on the uniform, putting on the bib and then, you know, waiting to get called to the starting line. What was the part that you're like, I got to relearn these things. Yeah, definitely weird, even like traveling to a meet, like you feel like you just have a different mindset and you fly in places now. She's like, oh, should I'm not here for vacation? I'm here to like, I'm here for business now. So just arriving in Nashville, I was like, oh, wow, I'm here to race and doing the pre-me and just kind of feeling your body doing the strides. And then I forgot about kind of everything I do before a race. I got out of a certain routine that I've been doing since Texas A&M Day. That's pretty much the same world routine. Maybe add a little bit of mileage to it. But it was weird just managing time, I think, in terms of they warm up to like, that's the time that bend those off. You know, so I think that was kind of weird. That was kind of different. And like I said, I was so far distance from it that it felt weird just kind of coming back. And doing them while I've been going through routine and kind of it was still a bit of pre-racing nerves and things like that. But it was fun for the most part. Like I really, I really enjoyed kind of that nervousness and just the emotions that kind of set it for a race. It was a fun experience. Like looking back, I always thought like, I didn't like doing that stuff. But once you kind of are giving the opportunity or putting that situation in the end, you're far more grateful for the second time around. What would success for this outdoor season look like for you? I mean, in the ultimate sense, right, like it's making the world team and making the final of the world championships. That's like dreaming big and like taking a huge swing. And the US team in and of itself is very difficult to make when you've got Hobbes, you know, Bryce, Brandon Miller, Jonah Coage, like Josh Hoey. I guess how are you going about like, if I do this this year, I'm really content because even this past week as performance, most people would be like, wow, that's great. And like now there's time to hopefully stay healthy and use this as a jumping off point. But do you allow yourself to think that big? I think everybody kind of does, but don't 100% admit it. You know what I mean? So yeah, like have expectations. I want to achieve things and you know, like I was even talking to, I was talking to Bryce at US, but I was like, I mean, if I can get a USA stand and see you guys at a gene, like that'd be awesome. Which was 100% true at the time. And still is true. Now I can't be able to stand up there and be out there and leasing. But now that you kind of race a time that's coastal world standard, not quite, you do set your expectations a little differently. And that's kind of what I've been doing, but I've been trying not to get too ahead of myself. Just because I know like USA is it's three rounds. It's not just one race, one fast race. You know, my body's got to be able to withstand the three rounds. I got to be more race sharp. I got to be just straight up faster and build conditioning and things like that. So I think with these expectations, it will come within training. So I'm excited to kind of, like I said, I got to move the goal post a little bit and just kind of expect more, but also be grateful we've been given so far. Can you describe, I guess, what that friendship is like with you and Bryce because like, you know, he was, you know, when you won, he was fourth. And now you guys have spent some time training together in Flagstaff or at least like seeing each other around. And he's someone who's like uplifted the event in your absence took the American record, which still feels like a little bit weird. And maybe just show the American record away. Exactly. Like you just straight like saying. But what's that friendship like between the two of you? Yeah, it's cool. So I've been up in Flagstaff more recently. So I've been able to hang with them by more than a hand flight entire career. And he's just been, he's always been so welcome me. And my return just been so just so supportive and trying to give me back out there. You know, even when it was like two years ago and I was only taking one year off, like, he always has been checking up and I really appreciate that. And he and he's been making flags about the little bit more enjoyable, you know, seeing 800 meter runners up there. Like, I don't know. It's just kind of cool because it seems like such a distance kind of hub up there that when you see other 100 guys, it's like, okay, like obviously I'm up here for the right reason. Like you see guys like Josh and Bryce, they're running extremely fast. So I think it just kind of gives you confidence and knowing that he I'm in the right place. I'm all the right people. It's, yeah, it's exciting. All right. My final question for you, Donovan is as someone who's been through, you know, so many setbacks. There's probably people who might be listening to this or watching this and, you know, they're doubting their own sort of return from injury or whatever it is. What's your biggest piece of advice? Because, you know, that mental side, I feel like also is the hardest thing to overcome. The doctors can take care of saying what you need to do physically and what they're seeing and all that stuff, but like in terms of just staying in it, like, how did you do it? I think I just never really put myself in a position to not do it. Like I always have so much support and so much back. I'm like, yes, up until the time I'm 100 for three years. Like people ask me all the time, Hey, how you feeling like, hey, how's this? And it's always the same answer. And it's like, oh, I'm getting there. It's always like some half-ass answer. It's like, oh, like I'm feeling better, but it's slowly coming and it just sucks telling people the same old, same old thing over and over again. But you realize like they're asking because they do care. And there's a lot of people that do care for my situation personally. Like I have such a huge group of people that support me. You know, old coaches, current coaches, everybody like it's been just overwhelming seeing the amount of people that, you know, I'm trying not to let down essentially, you know, like because I've went so many years without racing. And I know a lot of people will kind of go out and they do things and they have this big revenge. It's always because like, oh, I'm doing it for the people that count on me out or everyone have to like, like, like, revenge. It's like, and I'm doing it for the people that say I can do it. So I have such an overwhelming amount of people that have been supportive. And then no one that I could come back, it is just cold. Kind of prove them right. Every Instagram caption, I feel like I've seen over the last couple days, has been Don of Embrager is back. And then the famous J'Kerry saying is, I'm not back. I'm better. So let's put, let's put a Don of Embrager spin to it. You can't say you're better until you probably run a few hours. But it's far stretch right now. So you're back. What's the second part to it? Don of Embrager is back and then like trying and trying hard. I'm just grateful. Honestly, I'm back and I'm grateful. Like I'm so incredibly grateful. Like I said, I didn't realize how much I missed it until that gun went off until I finished the line and I get Craig and Big O'Holive because I was a little bit emotional about it because I didn't know if that time would ever come. I'm just so incredibly grateful to be around the track community again. Perfect. Well, Don of Embrager, it is really, really great to see you back in action. Everyone's looking forward to watching you at Portland Track Festival. And then I'm sorry that there's going to be less time fishing and more time training. I know it sucks. Yeah. That's all good. But it's all good if that means that we get some more special moments on the track. But appreciate you making the time and best of luck this weekend. Yeah. Thank you for giving this time. I appreciate it. Thank you all for listening to this episode. This episode was produced by Jasmine Fair. I love doing this for you guys. So please do me a favor and leave a five-server view on Apple podcasts or Spotify that helps us grow the show and get even more awesome guests. Let me know what you're enjoying about the show. Make sure you're subscribed or following on your favorite podcast players. Please share this episode with your friends if you think that they'll get any value or inspiration out of it. Let's build this thing together. Visit citysmag.com for a lot more. We've got a brand new website with tons more articles, videos and podcasts. As always, I love track and field. I'm Chris Chavez. See you next time.