Don't be boring: KCRW's Jennifer Ferro on building a brand people love

AI is full of possibilities. Enterprises run on realities. That's why Pega combines the world's most powerful AI with the governance, transparency, and control enterprises demand. So you can move faster, adapt faster, and scale AI with confidence. All the power of AI, none of the uncertainty. Learn more at pega.com slash AI. Every business hits the same wall. The moment your business outgrows the systems that got you here. Spreadsheets everywhere, five different logins, data scattered across entities that don't even talk to each other. If your finance team spends more time finding data than using it, that's when you need the Intuit ERP. Intuit Enterprise Suite is the AI-native ERP solution that's powerful, painless, and proven, built for businesses scaling fast without the complexity that usually comes with it. From the makers of QuickBooks, learn more at Intuit.com slash ERP. We don't assume, oh, we're public radio, so we should be a little bit boring. Yes, indeed, it's KCRW. There's like the broccoli and the chocolate cake. We try to lean to the chocolate cake. Well, and sometimes you're broccoli just with a really nice cheese on top or something like that, right? Yeah, exactly. KCRW, KCRW. The founder of KCRW, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her. It's a superpower making decisions. We fought all the time. I realized later that was her love language. I would leave every day and go, oh, I'm going to get fired, you know? Literally every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs of the world. We're not here to make money, to sell your data, to get you to buy something. We're just giving you information. And trying to make your life better. Hey, folks, Jeff Berman here. Before we start the show, I'm thrilled to welcome my friend, Jamie Batmer, Chief Investment Officer of Creative Planning, one of the sponsors of our show. Creative Planning is one of the country's largest independent wealth management firms where a single team, advisors, tax specialists, estate planners, all work from one coordinated plan. Jamie, welcome to the show. Hey, thank you so much for having me. Jamie, when you meet a new client, what do you do? Is it a founder, a business owner? What does their advisor setup usually look like? Maybe a few investment people, right? They have it spread out with a few firms. Then they have, you know, a tax person they've been working with, or a tax team. And then an estate planning team they've been working with. And so what we've done is, you know, bring those all under one roof with the dedicated subject matter experts within each space. I have to imagine that there's also a set of hidden costs when you have advisors who don't really talk to you. Talk to each other. What do those costs look like that people may not even recognize? Well, it's just friction costs. You're not moving along as efficiently as you can be. If there's not clear communication between those entities, you're missing stuff. You're missing the closest thing to free money the markets will give you. Can I ask you to share a real world example of a client who came to you after fragmented advice and counsel led to a costly mistake? We had a family that was domiciled at one point in Delaware, right? Made total sense when it was set up over a decade ago. Now, as things have changed, they should be farther out west in Nevada. And for this particular entity, it was a nearly $70 million mistake. But that's the thing, is that the person that did this for them, they didn't make the wrong decision in real time. They took care of it, and then they left, right? The idea is, we're constantly looking at it. That's where we can add value. This team is looking to analyze every element of their financial life and make an empirically optimized decision. And that gives people extraordinary peace of mind that they know they're going to have individuals that focus on this stuff all day long and not focus on trying to sell people bad stocks. What is your mission? Why are you guys doing this work? Focusing on what we can control, looking at everything, doing it right, not having a conflict of interest. And helping people, helping entities, you'll fulfill the dreams they want. You'll give to their family, give the charities. I mean, that's the most fantastic reward you can have. And that's the why behind it. I deeply appreciate how mission-driven you are in that. Thank you so much for being with us, Jamie. It's such a pleasure to talk with you. And now on to the show. This is Masters of Scale. I'm Jeff Berman, your host. And I'm here to talk to you about I am so excited to be in Los Angeles today with my new friend, Jennifer Farrow. Jennifer, I'm thrilled for you to be with us as you've been leading KCRW, a legendary public media institution through unprecedented, complex times with grace and grit and heart. And we have so much to discuss. Welcome to Masters of Scale. Thank you. I'm so happy to be here. How did you start your career coming out of college? Well, I think career is a really big word for what it was. I think it's a really big word for what it was. I needed a job. So I worked for a criminal defense attorney during the kind of war on drugs and worked as a legal secretary and a paralegal. What was it like being a paralegal back in the early 90s in that war on drugs era? I mean, it was a very, you know, big education on the way the world really works, especially for people who don't have money and who were doing what they felt they needed to do to survive and how they were just swept up in a lot of. a lot of politics. As you know, and as our regular listeners know, I started my career as a public defender. And one of the most valuable lessons for me from my five years doing that work is how to fight when you are radically under-resourced. You're going up against one of the most powerful forces in the world and you are so radically under-resourced that you just have to be scrappy. It's almost the best possible training for startup life. That's true. That's true. And also, you have to get over the fact that things aren't. things aren't fair. Yeah. Which I think is really important. Like, when you're raised a certain way, you look at the world a certain way, you're just like, but wait, that's not fair. So how did you make the jump from a paralegal to a local criminal defense lawyer to KCRW? It's not the obvious step. Yeah. I would listen to KCRW. I loved KCRW. I was like, wow, this is where smart people hang out. And I wanted to be where smart people were. And so I started volunteering at KCRW. And KCRW at that time had a very robust volunteer program. So a lot of things, a lot of jobs were done by volunteers, really devoted people. And then just being around people who were so welcoming and kind and really committed to just good things. And I was like, this is where I want to be. I just quit and I started volunteering full-time at KCRW. And I was like, something will happen. How did you transition from being a volunteer at KCRW to actually being on staff there? Okay, well, another kind of ridiculous story, but I. So part of my doing odd jobs to make rent, I got hired by the general manager and the founder of KCRW to transcribe this radio show. And for our younger audience, there was no granola back then. We're not dealing with AI being able to transcribe in real time. Literally, you were doing the transcription. Yes. It was manual. But I had used my credit card and bought a laptop on cash advance. This was when Apple laptops were the first Apple laptop. And so when I went into Ruth Seymour's office, the founder, and I shared her this report I did, and she saw my laptop and she's like, what is that? And I'm like, oh, this is a laptop. She was so impressed with it. So anyway, we talked. I left her office and her assistant walked in and sat down and said, I'm moving to the Peace Corps. I'm going to Cameroon and I'm quitting. And so she said, oh my God, I need an assistant. Go get that girl with the laptop. So she sent someone to run down after me. And she offered me a job right on the spot to be her assistant. And what'd she say? Well, at first I said, I don't want to be an assistant. I don't want to be a secretary. I went to college. But then I thought, what am I kidding? I have no other prospects and I love this place. So I took the job. How long were you Ruth's assistant? Just two years because I'd had that same thing where I said to her, look, I didn't go to college to be an assistant. I have to go start a career. So I'm going to leave. And then she said, well, what if you stayed here? What would you do? And I said, oh, you need a number two because people were really afraid of her. I was not. So people, people would come and talk to me and I would kind of, you know, whisper to her, figure her out. And she's like, okay, yeah, you can do that. That's a new job in the legacy organization. How did it work? I mean, what ended up, I mean, all credit to her, RIP, but she not only built this really unusual entity, KCRW, but she also was so welcoming to me. So we fought all the time. That was kind of, I realized later that was her, love language. And then, but she liked that because people were, she liked people to tell the truth to her, but she's so smart, big personality. People would cower from her, but I was too young to understand that I should be doing that to keep my job. So she would just keep me in on every decision. She would sit me in her office and tell me these stories. And sometimes I'd say like, this is my job is listening to her tell these tales. However, what I realize now is, you know, I may not have had that, you know, like you don't have a seat at the table, but you're in the room. I was in the room for everything. And I started to learn how she made decisions and why. It was invaluable. How long did you do that? I think 16 years. That's a long time. Yeah. You strike me as someone who doesn't lack for ambition in a good way. I don't say that critically at all. Why was it comfortable doing that job for 16 years? It's such a unique space. It is the largest door opener to culture in Los Angeles. Music, food, politics, policy, anything. If you're interested in anything, KCRW is a door opener for you to learn more about it. And so I'm addicted to that. I'm a really curious person. I love to learn things myself, personally. And I also, it was a place where I could have a big effect. I felt like I was able to make things happen. I think KCRW is just so singular. How big is KCRW now? How many employees do you have? We have about 140. What makes KCRW different from other public radio stations? Because you're right. I mean, whether it's going back to Jonathan Gold, the iconic Los Angeles food critic, or it's left, right, and center. I mean, KCRW has made such a mark, not just in LA, but nationally with the program. The programs that it has created and produced and distributed. You know, I think it just comes from this notion that we don't put ourselves in any kind of box. And I think it's like a mindset. You know, I think when a lot of public radio shifted, I think I'm glad they did, and I'm really supportive of it. But there's this real big focus on journalism with a capital J and being the local news source and kind of replacing the newspaper in a local way. And I think that's a really big focus. And I think that's a really big focus on journalism with a capital J and being the local news source and kind of replacing the newspaper in a local way. A lot of towns, which again, absolutely valuable and critical. But I think what happened in that transition is we forget about all the other parts of the newspaper that people used to read. And some of them are playing games or reading comics so they could laugh or finding out where movies or which movies to see and where to eat and things like that. That's the part that KCRW really embraces because we know that people want that. And so there's like the broccoli and the chocolate cake. We are like, we try to lean to the chocolate cake. Well, and sometimes your broccoli just with a really, really nice cheese on top or something like that. Right. Yeah, exactly. So much of this is touch and taste. What has made KCRW so good at being successful over and over and over again, particularly across categories, which, you know, is extremely rare for a media organization to do? The thing that Ruth Seymour taught me was, you know, she was a person who really didn't care what other people thought of her, which is a very it's like a superpower. It's also not so great sometimes, but it's a super power in making decisions. And when it comes to, you know, talent and work product or artistic expression, it can be really hard to tell someone this isn't meeting the mark, you know. But I think having that feeling and that that culture of knowing like this is important and you have to make hard decisions sometimes and you have to move on from things that didn't work out and try new things. So I think, you know, it's that it's that kind of dedication to being really honest, like, you know, we can all tell ourselves that like, well, the show is interesting because it's about the environment or whatever. But it's really kind of a bore. It's really it's powerful to be able to say this is boring. Yeah. Yeah. When you started at KCRW, radio was radio as the medium of radio has evolved to be radio plus podcasting plus video plus Lord knows what else. How have you adapted and how is KCRW adapted to to meet the changing moment? Yeah. Well, that's a big one. I mean, it's probably our biggest challenge ever. And so I'm sure we'll talk a little bit about federal funding and stuff like that, that being a challenge. But I think the biggest challenge is this audience shift. And so, like you said, when radio was radio, there was a finite number of, you know, stations and possibilities. And if you wanted to consume media, you had two choices, like five television stations and, you know, in L.A., maybe 80 radio stations. And then, you know, when you're in the car, that was your only media. That that was live and available to you and easy to use. And so now it's like it's really about changing from the focus being on making the media to really building the community. And I think for us, because we are supported by members, so we do care about who's who's in our audience. We want people who will actually love us enough to support us that the focus now is really on what is it that we're doing that can build a community that will stay together and care about you enough to support you when there's so many choices. OK, so let's go back. So 16 years as assistant GM to Ruth, what happens that you take the GM title? Well, Ruth Seymour retired. So that was the main thing. I had to apply and win the job. But she did something really powerful. She said, I am going to I'm not going to sit on the board. I'm going to disappear. Because I want the next person to take over this this place and have the same freedom that I had. That was what she gifted to me. So that was fantastic. I think a lot of times founders will stay on a board. She was like, no, I'm not going to do that. And she she didn't call me. She just said, if you need me, call me, but I'm not going to call you. And it was a big, huge gift to me. What was the biggest thing that you changed from Ruth's era when you came into the leadership job? I was going to say, absolutely. It was a lot nicer. I mean, that may be the answer. I mean, it was a lot better than it was when I came into the leadership job. Alongside our very own Reid Hoffman. Be in the room this year to hear what it means to lead with agency and build the future we want to see. Join us. Visit mastersofscale.com slash summit. Humans will never be more intelligent than AI. There's going to be two types of companies. Those are great at AI. And those that went out of business because they weren't. How do we build a future that is human-centered? I'm Rana El-Khawiyubi. And on my podcast, Pioneers of AI, we answer that question and so many more. As an AI scientist, entrepreneur, and investor, I know what it takes to build AI that works for everyone. Every week, I sit down with the pioneers shaping our future. And we take you behind the scenes of the AI that's transforming our lives. Find Pioneers of AI wherever you tune in. Hey, listeners. Bob here. If you listen to Rapid Response on Mastersof Scale, you may be missing half the show. Because every Friday, we release a second Rapid Response exclusively in the Rapid Response feed. The guests and topics are just as compelling and timely. From Ford CEO to NASA's administrator to the lessons from the Devil Wears Prada. It takes about 10 seconds to find. Just search Rapid Response wherever you listen to podcasts. And hit follow to make sure you never miss an episode. I hope to see you there. We live in an era of unprecedented, at least because of the means by which it can be communicated. Misinformation and disinformation. We're dealing with propaganda spreading at a rate that the world has never seen before. How do you think about KCRW's role? In countering that? Yeah. I think it's really important. And I think that, you know, so we've talked before about, like, the change in audience behavior. And the fact that people have many other choices. And radio is not a growth medium. It's a very valuable and powerful medium. But it's not where you're going to find or attract your new audience. But I think that's where KCRW's transition has been the most powerful. It's really understanding ourselves as this community resource. And not just for LA, but for all of the country. As a, you know, the brand of public radio is one that you know that these are people committed to serving the community. That's it. We're just giving you information and trying to make your life better. And in a world that we live in where literally every other aspect of media is controlled by the new kind of almost oligarchs of the world, it's powerful to have that. And to know it exists. And I think that what we watch is like, you know, listening behavior changing or habits changing. So maybe people aren't with us every single day. But those who know of us know they can completely and implicitly trust us. Having those things in the world is more critical than ever right now. Because you just don't, where do you turn? You know, whatever channel that you are consuming media on, it can be manipulated or has been manipulated. And public media in the country is critical for that, as a backstop, as a place that you can turn to find out what's going on. Yeah. And you've got this weird paradox where on the one hand, you're labeled by some parties as, quote unquote, state media. And on the other hand, you're dealing with a massive federal funding battle, which I have to imagine has impacted you to some extent. How do you deal with that tension? Well, I mean, I think the great thing is that we were never state media. And I think when you look at the original Public Broadcasting Act that Johnson passed, this was for the good of the country. And the kind of the language that's in there is so powerful when you think about it in today's world that we're in, which is like to elevate voices that aren't heard to be this resource for the country. I have a colleague who's no longer in public media, but he used to say, we need a public internet. There's public television, public radio, we need a public internet. And when he first said it, I was like, what are you talking about? The internet is public. But it's not public, right? It's controlled and owned and manipulated by others. And I do think that we need these spaces like public parks and public libraries where they are here for the good of the people. I think that we need these spaces like public parks and public libraries where they are here for the good of the people. You don't have to be in that conversation anymore, you know, because the charges about public media being liberal, those are really old. And it was, you know, used to be focused on Big Bird, and then it got focused on NPR. But it really couldn't be more true. I mean, I think, you know, the notion of what liberal is, is ultimately being open and interested and curious about lots of different ideas. That is the kind of the opposite of the word conservative. So I think that's where public media is. I think that's where public media has always been. But when you think about the contributions that it's made to America and society, I mean, I was a kid who grew up on Sesame Street. I learned all kinds of things before I got to kindergarten. How amazing to take a media that could make a, you know, turn children into little monsters, but also can turn children into these completely educated, interested, you know, little beings. It's powerful. So yeah, I think the federal funding thing, it's a relief to be out of the political football and spending time on the Hill and talking to Republicans and saying, you know that we represent your community and your voice gets on this channel, and you're talking to your voters. And privately, they would say like, oh, I know, it's really important to me. But publicly, they'd tow this line that said we were biased and things like that. Yeah, I mean, this idea that concepts such as inclusivity and kindness and fairness are radical leftist ideas that are being promulgated by this dangerous entity of public media is sort of insane. These are neither liberal nor conservative concepts. These are deeply rooted concepts across our society. Jenna, a few years ago, you took on an additional challenge of chairing the NPR board of directors. You seem like you have a pretty full plate. Why did you decide to do that? And, you know, when you criticize something, you should just run it and do it yourself. So no, anyway, I, you know, it was an opportunity to, I think, build cohesion in our public radio system at a time when we were under huge challenges. And I, you know, it's funny, inside our system, we think we're really different. Of course, we're not, right? People think NPR, public radio, they're interchangeable. We're interchangeable terms, KCRW interchangeable, but yet individually, it can be like herding cats. I saw that what we were approaching was a big leadership change at NPR and increasing Republican attacks against our brand, our industry, everything. And so I was very interested in trying to build something that could lead, hopefully lead NPR and public radio to a better place. The federal funding cut is one thing to your point. If it's 5% of your budget and you have a large base and you can probably find a way to make up for that, you know, with some pain, but not too much difficulty. If you are Marfa, Texas, and you cover 30,000 square miles and it's 30% of your budget, boy, that sounds like a much tougher putt. What has happened across the member station universe since the federal funding cut? The federal funding cuts are looking at regional leadership, stepping into both work with all the other, say, stations in their state to figure out how could they provide either back-end services or acquisitions or something like that, that allows us to have that same kind of public service coverage across the country, but takes away some of the expenses that maybe they don't have to spend. So we're starting to see that now. I don't know what that will look like. The thing that I think it will happen soon is the notion that, you know, you can work really hard to protect what you used to have, or you can look at the other big forces that are happening around you and look to say, okay, how can we adapt to those? Jen, let's fast forward a couple of years. We've had a paradigm shift in federal government and Republicans and Democrats come together and say, you know what, this was a mistake. We really should be funding public media in the U.S. much more robustly. I mean, yes, I would, even though I have, you know, issues with it. But yeah, I think America deserves to have a source of information and a community resource that is funded and supported for everyone. The amount of money that public radio and public television got from the federal government was like budget dust. It was insignificant. And I think, you know, as a matter of principle, just like we have public libraries and public parks, we should have a public media, a source that you know is not manipulated by AI, is not controlled by some oligarch. Yeah, we deserve that. So I'm adamant and like dogging, yes, let's do it, as much as it was a pain in the butt. I don't think we should give up on that. And I think one thing that's really interesting is when that rescission effort happened. So remember, this was, you know, this rescission effort for USAID and public radio happened at the same time. And it was supposed to be the canary in the coal mine in the beginning of many, many rescissions to come. We have not seen any yet. But what was interesting was public television, public radio lobbied so hard with all of our representatives, which include many Republicans. We were almost going to defeat that in the House. That was going to be defeated in the House. But four Democrats did not show up to vote. And when Republicans saw that they weren't going to pass it, they switched sides. It was unprecedented in this environment right now because so many Republicans understood their constituents and they know people are like, I want my kids to see Big Bird. You know, I want my kids to, I want myself, I want to learn things about the world and I want to hear the voices of my community. So I think there's, there's an opportunity to make something really powerful with the spirit. Do I think it's going to happen? I do not. I mean, Roe versus Wade, you know, that has been, how long has that been overturned? And that hasn't come back, even though a majority of the country actually supports that. Yeah, significant majority, super majority of the country. Yeah. So it's like, I don't, I don't think that Congress can actually, do anything like this. Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. But I'll try. I'm going to keep trying, go down the hill. Keep hope alive. Keep doing it. Jen, I have a 16 year old who is extremely online and thank goodness he is quite media literate because he'll assert something and I'll ask him his source. And he now knows that TikTok is not a source. The account on TikTok might be, if it's KCRW on TikTok, that's, that's one thing. But we live in this world where the, you know, now trillion dollar companies that control these algorithms are incentivized to drive engagement and engagement happens more when we are outraged and we are inflamed and cortisol is spiking. And yet fact-based media, a lot of the places where this should be redundant, but objective truth lives. And I do believe that's such a thing. It's harder to engage people that way. When you talk about, for example, public internet or new paradigms, again, we're sort of giving you a magic wand and huge power. What would you design so that we as Americans are engaging more with fact-based media and less with the outrage? machine? I mean, first of all, I think that fact-based media needs to spend a lot of money on marketing. Call it something other than fact-based media. Yes, yes. That does not sound good. Doesn't sound like chocolate cake in any way. And I think that, you know, again, on the side that we can control, I think that we have to make a product that's just as interesting and exciting. But on the other side, I think there is, I do believe that the companies and the organizations that control these pipelines, that they can manipulate in positive or negative ways, owe it to the society to create a space that is free from that. If they are going to own the pipes and they're going to hold on to those, that ownership, then there does need to be a space that we can have for people that is designed not to. I think the whole thing should be like that, but that's out the window. It doesn't necessarily generate the same amount of revenue. And then I think that there's, you know, I don't know what it would look like, but this notion of a public pipeline, a public internet is a really, you know, interesting concept. And again, I, you know, it's hard to get people to move off platforms, et cetera. But I think just having that shows that you care about the people that you, you know. And I do think it's interesting watching media change. Like you have, like on the radio side, we're controlled by the FCC. It is an agency of the government and it has rules and standards and we can violate them and lose our privilege. I don't see that anywhere in today's modern pipelines. And I, you know, I don't think it's been for the good. You know, I think we can all point to something that shows, wow, no one's minding this store. You know, we're just okay with letting children see these things or letting people in a sense get poisoned by some stuff. I mean, there's lots of great things. I, I love looking at squirrel houses on Instagram. I'm so down for that. But, you know, there's also a lot of really negative stuff. And, and I think once a society throws their children to the wolves, it's like, is this really, is this really where we want to be? And I, I, I think a government's role is to, is to protect. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's complicated in so many ways, right? But, um, when you and I were growing up, we had three or potentially four television networks and you had the nightly news and, and, and our house, we had NBC and Tom Brokaw on when I was much younger, it was Walter Cronkite and CBS. Um, and you got what felt like the news. This was what mattered in the world. And the reality is, it is what a bunch of men who look a lot like me, decided was relevant to the world and was presented through their lens. And so part of the promise of the internet and of this massive fragmentation of media is this diversity of viewpoints and, you know, news and information opinions that never would have made its way onto Tom Brokaw's broadcast, making it to your device. Um, the downside is everything else that we're dealing with, which is pretty extreme. And so what I hear you sort of advocating for is almost a third way, which is sure. Let a thousand fly. Flowers bloom, let a hundred million flowers bloom. And let's also have a corridor where there is a more trusted set of data coming to, and maybe more, um, modulated, if not moderated set of data coming through. Is that, is that how you would say? Yeah, definitely. And I, I also think that, um, you know, there's, there's a lots of things in the world that have public parts and then private parts. There's bookstores and there's libraries, you know, and both coexist really nicely. People make decisions, um, based on what they need. I don't know. I mean, I don't, I don't want to be a big advocate of government regulation necessarily, but I do feel that our society is better when we have spaces that are designed just to make people's lives better. That's it. And if that means, you know, healthcare for some, if it means preschool for others, um, or opportunities for, for free education, those aren't, those are good things for society in general. And that's what I, I would love to have. And then in order to scale that, I think, you know, the people who are making that the media that's on those platforms has to make it good. And I think just because it's public doesn't mean it needs to be boring. Well, that sounds like a perfect place to wrap. Thank you for being a master of scale. Absolutely. This is so fun. Thanks again to Jennifer Farrow for joining us. The way she leads KCRW offers so many valuable lessons for any of us who want to scale the reach of facts in an increasingly algorithmically controlled misinformation and disinformation driven world. Let's not compromise our integrity, but also let's not be boring. Jennifer Farrow is definitely not boring and she is most certainly high integrity. I so appreciate the work that she's doing in the world. And I so appreciate you being here as part of our community. I'm Jeff Berman. Thank you for listening. Masters of Scale is a Wait, What? original. Our executive producer is Eve Tro. Senior supervising producer is Trisha Bobita. Associate producer is Masha Makatanina. Video editor is M.G. Frederick. Senior talent executive is Stephanie Stern. Mixing and mastering by the audio boys themselves, Aaron Bessanelli and Brian Pugh with original music by the remarkable Ryan Holiday. Visit mastersofscale.com to find the transcript for this episode and to subscribe to our newsletter and be sure to subscribe to our YouTube channel.