Don Lemon: The Cost of Candor

(upbeat music) - So I tell my age. - If we walked in the streets together now, three of us, I'm not even gassing up. If we walked together in the streets, people would not go wild, they would that old guy. - No way, they would just be like your friend. They might even say your brother to me. - Yeah. - I think it's your brother. - And I would go, I try to do your accent, but I can't. (laughing) That is my brother. (laughing) - I don't know, so I tell my age here, I don't know. - You can tell your age. - I'm 60. - I turn 60. - No way. - Yeah. - Man. - Don, you look good. - Yeah. - Like you look good, good. - 100. - Thank you. - Like I'm not a side, but I'm just saying, man. - Thank you, man. - I was gonna say it. - I'm not a side, but don, yo, you look good. - I'm married Trevor. (laughing) - Back off. (upbeat music) - This is What Now, with Trevor Noah. (upbeat music) (upbeat music) - I have a pitch for a business, or a structure that we can implement in society, where we find, we find it in a business, or is it a structure that I don't know, I don't know which one to work more effectively. That's what I'm saying, it's just a pitch. But basically what we do is we get, we find a way to let everyone live in everyone's houses when they're not there. Listen, wait, you can't vote against them. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - You've won, finished. You can't vote against them before I'm finished. - Okay. - So this is what I'm saying. Most of the time, our houses are all empty, everywhere in the world. - Yes. - Most, most of the boats are empty, right? - And most are not humble. - Yes, that's true. But like, I just think there could be a way for us to figure out a system where, okay, 'cause let's be honest, let's be honest. The main reason you don't want living, someone living in your house is why. Let's list list a few reasons. - No, no, no, no, just give me the reason. - You're making this about our pitch. - Wait, wait, wait, wait, I'm asking you. - I'm asking you. - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. - With the fear of conscience. - Are you guys rolling on this? (laughing) - Okay, I wanna show you that this is well thought out. - Okay, shop. - This is African and African. (laughing) - Push the fear, one of us. (laughing) - Can I just observe something? Can I jump in? - Yeah, of course, what do you mean? - So, this is what do you call it when, oh shit. Your accent is heavier now. When you're speaking to him. - Oh, yeah, definitely. - Definitely. - Yeah. - 100%. - Your accent. - Cold switching is what people call it. - Yeah, your coat's switching. - Yes, but it doesn't have those. - It happens, we're gonna talk to you. - It happens differently. - You're gonna see it's gonna happen to you. - And now you're like, "Hey man, hey man, hey man." - You know what's funny is, actually. No, it's funny that you said that for the first-- - And don't think I forgot about your proposal. - No, I'm gonna get back to you. - For the first-- - He proposed to you. - Six months to a year that I was on the daily show. - Yeah. - The amount of hate mail that we got because of my accent, don't you? - No. It was, I felt like I had to go for electrocution lessons. People would say he can't-- So there were words that people just refused. So for instance, in South Africa, when we're referring to the plural of a woman, we say woman, that's how we say it, woman. - Woman. - Woman, right? American say, women, exactly. As if it's not an O. - Like if it's-- - So we say-- - Exactly, you say like it's W-E-M-E-N, so you say like women. And then in South Africa, we say woman, the way it's written. - Water? - And then, I mean that one obviously-- - I hate that water. The reason we say it that way is because this is America. And people like to go, you know, I am not. There's only two genders. We men. (laughing) - No, so like, so there's that one. - What is that? (laughing) - It's too early now. - I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. - What is the other one I was saying? I mean, there's the obvious aluminium. And I don't know why aluminium was in the script so much. Things were happening in the American government aluminium. - You never had to say mirror. - Mirror, I wouldn't say mirror, I would say mirror, and people would go this is, but it was a deluge, as they would say, of people complaining. - Deluge. (laughing) - See, they lose lots of water. - Yo, and all that they said-- - Every time they would go this person has no business replacing John Stuart's. And beyond just his terrible aptitude for American politics, he can't even speak. - No way. - And then I would have to sit and try and, I was like, how do you say these words? What am I saying? What am I saying wrong? - And so over time, I genuinely had to learn how to say some of the words in a way. - But that happens naturally, I think. - Yeah, but not when people are watching you-- - Those hate meals are not-- - Was that really-- - What was it like for you when you, when did you start? - 'Cause I mean, I just found out-- - Well, it's like from Louisiana, that's like another language. So I lost my Southern accent because I would listen to my voice all the time as a local reporter. You know, you'd be in the audio booth recording a track for a story and you hear your voice and you're like, I don't like the way that sounds. And so just naturally corrected itself over time. And I felt like during the show that probably would have happened to you, but I never had an issue understanding you. I had, honestly, in this no shade, the only accent, there are two accents I have an issue with, or that I can't understand, I don't have an issue with it. That it's hard for me to understand if they're really listening, they have to slow down. Scottish? - Scottish, come here. - Indian. - So why did you say no shade to me? I need a Scottish, oh Indian. - No, but I'm saying, we're just talking about accents, you're saying Jesus, why are you so sensitive? - You said no shade and you were like, Scottish. - Yeah, and Indian. - And you can no shade to the Scottish in the Indian. - Because you, let's be honest, you have often been referred to as the Scottish Indian. (laughing) - Yeah, but I have to, it's gotta slow down in order for me to understand. - It depends on, yeah, it depends on where. I think, like, so Glaswegian accent, the Glaswegian accent can be really touching. - So from Glasgow, Glasgow. - They're called Glaswegians. - Yeah. - And then Edinburgh has a much softer one. - Edinburgh. - It's a lot easier to hear. But Indian, isn't that easy for you? - The opportunity to speak fast. - Yeah, it's not true. - And some Irish people, I'm like, if you're going too fast, I'm like, wait a minute. Please say that again. And many times over the phone, if someone calls you and they're Indian, I just say, "Can you please slow down on understanding?" The second time, they say it, you understand it, but. - And then you're like, no, I don't know. One spam calls, thank you very much. Hang up, please. - I do not want to. - Because why is a random Indian version of you? - You've never been called. - You've never? - Yeah. - Oh, so in America, most of the spam calls will come from India. 'Cause that's where they've outsourced all of the call centers too. - Yeah. - We don't have it in South Africa from India. - I did notice in your comedy special that I thought your accent was coming back or heavier than when you were on the show. - Well, thank you very much. - Yeah, but I have a bad way. I mean, I like it. - I appreciate that. - I didn't think in bad way until you just said that. (laughing) - I never know when you're like, (laughing) - But not in the bad way. I didn't think it was in the bad way. You said, "I noticed your accent is coming back, Trevor." And then I was like, "Thank you, Don and you." But not in the bad way. And I was like, "Ah, in a bad way." I should've just said respectfully. (laughing) - You probably struggle with those accents because your ear is slow because you come from the South. - I know that I have a lazy tongue. I know my tongue is slow. - Yeah. - 'Cause that's something, right? - Yeah. - So depending on where you're from, is that what I call it? - Is it the draw? - Draw. - Southern draw. - Southern draw. - So when you go home, can you still do it? - It just comes back. And then when I come back to New York, my husband will say, "I can tell when you've been home." And I say, "Why?" And he says, "Because listen to how you sound." And you look bloated from all the freaking salty and bad food that you're eating. So I go and I gain two pounds and I end up saying, "Hey, instead of like when I'm in New York or whatever." I'm like, "Mom, what are you doing?" And then I go home and I come back and I'm like, "Mama." (laughing) "Mama, can you, I want some eggs, my please." And you just get that, you just, "Hey." - You gotta do that, you should do like reports from home, just to like give us like a different tongue lemon. - Yeah. - 'Cause now I'm picking up your dumb lemon. - Yeah, that's right. - Just like a, you know, dumb lemon. My good friend, dumb lemon. - My fat, reporting lie. - Every once in a while it comes out and someone will make fun of it. But every once in a while I'll say something and like my husband Tim will go, "Y'all take a mic." - You know what, take me to stop. - We need to talk to him to stop. - Yeah, because I mean, all three of us here are people from the south. - And also, you know what freaks me out is, "Oh, actually doesn't freak me out, it makes me laugh." Is when we were back home. - Yeah. - And then the wide people here, Trevor speaking, it's a zoole. It freaks them out all the time. - Really? - Freaks them out. I don't know why, so that freaking language is people get thrown off. - Yeah. - I guess, but I take for granted, for many people in South Africa, for, at least for a generation, they only knew me from the daily show ironically. - From South Africa. - Because when I left South Africa, there's the generation that knew me from South Africa, doing comedy, doing shows, et cetera. I come to the US, I do the daily show. There's a whole new generation that grows up, only knowing me from the daily show. - Yeah. - So like, I'll meet kids now who are, let's say like, 24 or somewhere there. And then when I speak Zulu, or Toronto, anything, they go, what do you, (laughs) where did you learn that? Where did I learn that? These are my languages. (laughs) - He's been with me. - It's like, you see a black man speaking Chinese? - Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's literally that. It is literally that. - What? - Yeah. - Where does that come from? - That's my favorite thing with people. - How honest can we be in this? How can it, can we be in this? - Well, it doesn't go. - I really miss you on the daily show. Like, really, thank you. I don't know what happened. and not my business, I felt like-- - Well, you couldn't ask any questions. - I feel like, maybe I'm wrong. I felt like they undervalued what you brought to the Daily Show, and I would have fought tooth and nail to keep you. - No, honestly, they didn't, no, honestly, they didn't, no, there was no fight, there was no shade, there was no nothing. All that happened was, I've been doing the Daily Show was going on seven years, right? The thing that happened was, so there are a few ideas I have of life that are not congruent with how Americans run their businesses sometimes. Okay, so one of them is, I do not believe that everything has to go on forever. I also believe that people should take breaks. - I agree. - In both directions, by the way. - I agree with both of those things, right? So I think you should give an audience a break, and you should give staff a break, and you should give, I like that SNL, for instance, goes off for a few months. - Right, right. - I like that, I think it's good. I like that TV shows go away and then come back. John Oliver takes like a few months off, run December, January comes back in February. I like that. And so my pitch was, hey, I love what we're doing here, but I'd just like to take more time. I want to get back home South Africa. My accent is fading. People are noticing this. - If I need my hair to grow up. - Yeah, man, I want to, like, you know, I still, there's aspects of my life that I miss. And they were like, no, man, the Daily Show has to happen, the way it does, everything. I was like, I think there's another way this could happen. And they were like, no, and then I was like, okay, it's fine. If you don't agree, then we don't agree, but there's no beef, there's no fights. My contract is going to come to an end. So then let's just wrap it up. - I didn't say there was a beef or a fight, but I would have thought, I would have given you what you want. If you needed some time off, I would have given you an I would have had like a, they wanted I would, yeah. 'Cause I really thought that you were really valuable in that position, but I also think you're valuable in what you're doing now. - Thank you very much, Tom. - And I love how you, like, you got a perm now in your hair. You actually have black hair, like, as we say, Matthew, before you had good hair, what happened? - What'd you do? (laughing) - Don't, are you sure if you want to start it? If you know her, do say, man, it was one of the funniest things. 'Cause you didn't do say it, I've done a few things together, but do say Sloan, we had the daily shirts together. So COVID happens, nobody has a barber. I'm not gonna risk trying to cut my own hair. My head grows out. I realized I only cut my hair frequently because I had been forced into it in life, so in school. And in South Africa, we had this come up again recently. If you had white hair, you can sort of grow it the way you want. - And professional hairstyle. - If you had black hair, they called it unprofessional, they called it unkempt, they called it all these things. So in school, we had to cut our hair if it was this, right? So my whole life, cut the hair, cut the hair, cut the hair, it just becomes part of your life. COVID happens, my hair grows out. I was like, oh yeah, I like having hair. I miss this. I bump my head, it's not that bad. It's warm, especially in New York. Let me tell you something, this is true. This in New York, life saver. - Really? - Yo, the amount of warmth. - In winter. - Yeah, in summer? - No, in summer, it's a liability. - I think it'll help me. - Yeah, no, no, no, bra. This isn't a helmet. What are you talking about? - In the summer, this is what I do. My hair doesn't grow as long as yours, but in the winter, I let my hair grow. - Oh, you let it grow. And then it just gives it a little-- - Yeah, the only reason that I ever really cut my hair was because I was on television. Otherwise, I don't care about hair. I would rather just have it shaved very low or just let it grow out. But, you know-- - What about you? Do you miss being like, you know? - I don't. - You don't miss it? - I do not miss it. I know it sounds weird, I don't miss it. I did in the beginning. It was weird in the beginning, because I was at the matrix of every big important story in the world. - How many years were you at CNN? - Almost 17 years. - 17 years. - 17 years. - Damn. - Yeah. And so it was weird, I was like, what do I do with my time? But I don't miss having to second guess. I don't know if you felt that way. Maybe a little bit different, because it was comedy. Kind of, but you were actually educating people in the news. I was like second guessing, third guessing, fourth guessing. Everything that came out of my mouth, because I represented a brand and like 4500 employees around the world. Some of them in war zones had to be careful about what I said. Now I can just say, fuck you or whatever it is. - It duns been weird. - And, or whatever. - I blew my hand, fuck you. - Yeah. (laughing) Like today, as I was recording my show today, there was, you know, the, on the official democratic Twitter account, the woman posted about Stephen Miller, she shut up you ugly fuck. And I got to talk about that. And I said, yeah, Stephen Miller isn't ugly fuck. - Right. - Oh, you wouldn't have been able to say that. - No. - No. - How would you have covered it on CNN? What would you have said? - I, on CNN, I would have said. - I'm attractive, funny, caterer. - I would have said, wha- (laughing) - I'm attractive, foreigner, caterer. (laughing) - Oh man. - I'm sorry. - What do you think you have said? - Basically, I would have handled it similarly to how I handled it today. - Okay. - Actually, it's not really about physical attractiveness, although, you know, it's also about the policies that he espouses and what he's putting into place and that, you know, him being Islamophobic. - Yeah. - His racism, his sexism, his treatment of immigrants, or whatever, those are ugly qualities. So yeah, Stephen Miller. - That does. - Interesting. - Shut up you ugly fuck. - Okay. - But I would not have said. - A diplomat, huh? - Yeah, he is. - Yeah, but I would have said, you know. - That's amazing. - I'm gonna talk about, I said, I'm gonna talk about Stephen Miller and calling him that. Look, the Democratic Party can do what they want, but let me tell you why Stephen Miller is ugly and I'm not talking about physically the world he loves. This is how he's ugly and that we've done that on CNN. But I ain't nobody doing that now 'cause they scurred. - Yeah, everyone is scared, man. Except everyone is scared. So the woman who segment got pulled by CBS, they just didn't renew her contract. They aren't offered. - Yeah. - What did you do? - She had a story on C-Cot just at C-Cot, which is I think some place where they're housing immigrants, Cintanese and all that stuff at a C-Cot. And then they, the new boss came in, that was great grammar. The new boss came in and is Maga-Coded, the company and the folks who are running the company. And just pulled her segment, saying we need to get a response from the White House and we need to do more reporting after it had already been vetted by everyone at 60 minutes. Like you don't get more vetting than 60 minutes. - Yeah, you don't. - So it was obvious what was happening. And she said, what is going on here? This has been vetted by this number of people and it's gone through our process and it's legit journalism. We all stand by it. And then they said, no, eventually they did. I think they ran it. I'm not sure if they ran it, but they ended up running it in foreign countries outside of the US. And then I guess they didn't, whoever's there don't, they didn't realize that this is gonna run somewhere else. - Oh, wow. - And so yeah, she's gone. - Yeah, everyone is scared. - Everybody's scared. - What's disappointed me is it's equal parts scared and equal parts greed. - It's like the greed part. - So we say that everyone's scared, but I don't think it's only fair. I think a lot of people are putting their greed before the freedoms of the country, right? And a lot of these networks, these news networks whether it's CBS or whether it's all of them, they're not just scared. They're also thinking about what they wanna do business wise. They wanna acquire other companies. They want mergers and acquisitions to go through. They want, so because they want that to happen, they're not saying anything. But they should be saying something but they won't say something because they want their deals to go through. So it's like, it's half scared, half creed. I would argue the people on the ground, like the actual reporters and the journalists, they're scared because they're gonna get fired. You know, did you see this thing where they said they're gonna, they actually, they wanna subpoena people's records and like your private, 'cause you know if you're a journalist, you know better than we do, explain it. If you have a source, you don't have to reveal your source. - You don't have to reveal your source. - Right, but now they're saying they want to have privileges. They have, you know, privileges like that. - Yeah. - Right. - I'm going through it right now and I didn't even know about it. - Wait, what? - Yeah. - So when they, you know, they arrested me in California. - Yes, what happened there? What exactly happened? - Wow, that's it. - But you had a G about it, though. You're like, "Fucked out." You're like, "I'm. " (laughing) You're like, "Bad God." I thought you were gonna be like, "Ahh!" You're like, "I'm going in, man." I'm gonna be like, "I'm going in, I'm going in, I'm going in." You were not scared at all, Don. - No. - That was like. - It was a bit frustrating, but why would I be scared? I'm not scared of anything. - I'm not scared of anything. - You're scared of anything. - Hey, hey, Jail. - Jail. Oh. - Jail. - Yeah. - But then you think about, I think about the people who did go to jail so that I could be able to sit here and do this. This is nothing compared to that. And look, I have agency. I have a platform, I have resources that most people don't have. So if I became scared about what was happening then what use am I to the people who really need me to not be scared? - I like that. - So what happened was, I went to Minneapolis, actually I was on my way. I've been. I blamed Jesse Jackson and I blamed Dr. King. So I had to go to Chicago because I was hosting the Dr. King Breakfast sponsored by Jesse Jackson, the Rainbow Push in Chicago. So I was headed there and I started talking, I was in a kitchen and Tim and I was saying, I gotta go to Chicago or whatever, but Minneapolis is happening. He said, maybe you should make a stopover and Minneapolis is like, and I said, you know what you're right. So I'm just gonna go there in the morning and then go a day earlier, I'll go there and then I'll fly straight to Chicago. I don't just go there for a day and be on the ground. I was on the ground for less than six hours or something like that. And so I just went to report on what was happening and there was, you know, they were at this center where they keep all the people that they detain and so, but it was too early, I got there early in the morning, it was too early to go there, there was hardly anyone there and I said, where am I gonna go? When am I gonna cover? And there were people saying, oh, this is happening, you should go cover this and I said, okay, I'll go cover that. - And what was the, it was this clandestine operation like the Civil Rights Movement where they show up and they disrupt. - Oh, God, it's okay. - And so I showed up with them and I was like, oh, they're going into this church and I said, oh, we're not gonna go and do anything until it happens because then when it happens, it becomes news. Okay, God, it got it, God, it's, so I do that. Go in there, report, do the thing that I had no connection to the people who were sponsoring this. I didn't know where we were going 'cause we had to follow them. And then that was it. And then I started hearing things like, oh, we're gonna arrest him for disrupting, for going in and protesting and disrupting a religious service. I'm like, I didn't do anything. I'm not a protester, I'm a journalist. And what if I had not been there to chronicle it for you, right? If something had, that's what we do. Journalists go where the news is. And I got a call from someone who has been doing this for a long time and he said, you know what, Don? When John Miller, who was in charge of communications for the NYPD and then he was a reporter at one point, he said, when John Miller went into the cave with Osama bin Laden, he didn't become a terrorist. He was still a journalist. So when I went into the church of report, I didn't become a protester. I'm still a journalist. And somehow this administration doesn't understand that. So, it was-- - Understandable don't want it to happen. - There you go. I don't want to understand, which I think is even more pernicious, right? So they were saying, oh, we're gonna arrest him. They're gonna do this and they went to two or three, maybe three different sources to get an arrest warrant for me and it didn't work. So they went to a grand jury, which is just normal everyday people and it's a secret of process. And so who knows what they presented to this grand jury in order to come up with an indictment for me. And so I was in LA covering the Grammys. I just come back from a Spotify party with the photographer who's here. I blame him. (laughing) His name is Anders and he's like, we were at the party. - Anders, Jesse Jackson and Dr. Kim. - Yeah, so we got this list, we got this list. So Anders is like, hey, come on, one more Margarita, one more Margarita and now it's listening to Anders. Who was it, the last person I saw? I forget who it was. I don't know if you did. - Oh, I don't know. - My milkshake brings all the boys to the yard. - Kalees. - No. (laughing) - No, it's a new group or whatever. - Okay, a young boy. - Yeah, and so anyways. So watching them, it was great and then I go back. What? - Katsai. - Katsai, Katsai, Katsai, got it. - So I get back to the hotel. I'm getting on to the elevator and then I got bum rush. - That's how it happened. And I was like, what are you doing? They said, we're here to a restaurant. I said, where's the warrant? They didn't have one that had to go outside and as I'm scuffling trying to get my bearings, they had to go outside, get the FBI agent and he shows me a warrant on the phone, like a cop, a picture and I was like, okay, I don't know what that means, but anyway. And so ended up spending about 12 hours in custody. And I came out and did what you said. But you asked me, what happened? That's what happened. And right now they've had my phone for four months. They took my phone, they've had it for four months. - Speaking to you right now, they still have your phone. - Oh, they still have my phone. - What do you think they're doing with it? - They wanna go through to find evidence. There's nothing there. - But do they, do you give them the passwords? How does it work? - They don't need it. - No, they look. - What do you mean they don't need it? - They don't need a password. - Yes, they do need a password. - They do. - But go on. 'Cause they're gonna have to use that software. I don't know if that's software. - That's what I'm saying, yeah. - What is it, Pegasus? Is that what it's called? I don't remember, but remember this software, I think it was first developed in Israel and then it was like sent around the world or people had bought it or whatever, but. - I'll give you an exclusive. - Go. - The high, the newer iteration, the newer the iteration of the iPhone, the harder it is to get into it. They can't get into my phone. - Well, there you go. Did they ask you for the password? - They eventually had to ask you. - They try to make you look at your phone. (laughing) I've always wondered if they don't have it. - I don't have it. - But I'm saying, 'cause I'm saying like, I wonder, because there's a weird thing, if I understand the American law correctly, apparently they cannot force you to give them your password, they can ask you. - Yeah, but they still can't force you, but if it's fingerprint or face, then you do have to do it. - I don't know about that. - I don't understand what the difference is. - I'll look it up. - No, I know the problem. - I promise you, I promise you this. - Will you look it up? - My man, on your phone. - I've got you, bruh. - On your iPhone. - Don't worry, actually. - What's your password? - I've got to worry, I've got to. - I've got you, I've got you. - There's something. Let me see. - Why don't you hold it up to your face? - Yeah. - I'm not going to look at it. - I've got nothing to hide. - You've got nothing to hide. - Me, even the last thing I want, does anyone taking my phone? - What are they gonna find? - In fact, yeah. - Where's your phone? - In fact, you cannot get prosecuted. In fact, I'm even pitching. - That's what I'm gonna say. - I'm even pitching for penis portraits, as you call them. - Or butt shots. (laughing) - I don't know. - I don't know. - I don't judge. - I don't judge. - I don't judge. I don't know who's the top and who's the bottom. (laughing) - And it's not my business, I don't care. (laughing) - Let's see. - I'll find it. - I'll find it. - Or a side. - You can be a side. - This is really done. What do we do to each other all the time? I thought it sounds so bad. (laughing) Is this what it sounds like, what do we do? - So why are you like, did you say a side? - A side. - You don't know what a side is? - No, I've never heard of that. - This is like, there's no top or bottom. It's your side. - That's a thing. - Yeah. - I knew there was top and bottom. I didn't know that there was a side. - There's a side. - Huh. - Wait, you said a side, does what? - A side just kind of lays there on the side. Like you're, you know, or you take care of yourself. Or each other. - Wow. I would have gone with the middle. I don't know why they went with a side. - It's called a side. - But a side is a bit of name. - Yeah. - You know why it evokes an image in your head. - Yeah. But I mean, if you have top bottom, you want a side. You don't want to be like in the middle. - In between that. - I guess so. - But that's what I would have thought. So why are you looking at me tell you this thing? So I did not realize it until yesterday that they had filed secretly a subpoena for my YouTube channel to get my subscribers and members or subscribers names, addresses, and phone numbers. And the judge said, no. - Guys, what are we? - The judge said, no. Why would they, why would they want that? Either they want it to kill my business, to intimidate me or to intimidate people who watch me. It's crazy. - That's what I created a list. - Do you find it? - What are we doing? - I found it. So the legality of compelled unlocking hinges on protections against unreasonable searches for the amendment and self-incrimination for the amendment. So post-codes and pins, the Fifth Amendment generally protects your testimonial acts, okay? So courts across the country widely agree that the government cannot force you to hand over a passcode or a pin as doing so forces you to reveal the contents of your own mind. - Right. - All right, that's the key thing. So you're testifying against yourself by giving your password. However, the law regarding biometric locks is highly fractured. Biometrics are generally treated as physical evidence like DNA swabs or a lineup. Meaning some courts have ruled that police can physically force you to unlock your phone using your face or your thumb. - Yeah. - Because they're saying that's not the contents of your mind. - Yes. - You're not testifying against. It's essentially like putting your fingerprints down. - I think you'd fight that. 'Cause I would say-- - I would say I had to think about this before when I looked at the phone. I had to think about what-- - Depends on the court. - Depends on the court. But it's literally, so remember when people were getting detained at the border, there was a moment when it was like a real flare-up. - Yeah. - The message they gave everyone was, hey, make sure you don't have face ID and touch ID and everything on your phone. Make sure your phone just uses a passcode because they can't force you to give them a passcode. - Interesting. - So I was surprised that they didn't just be like, you're done, look here. Hey, don't. Hey, don't, can I ask you a question? - I don't think they even had a warrant yet when they took it. - Damn, four months. So what have you, are there some people that you now haven't spoken to for four months and you're happy about it? (laughing) - Come on, right? What a great excuse to get people out of your life. - Up to the seriously. - I wanted to get back to you. - Oh my God. - Do you know what happened to my phone? - But it's true that did happen because the phone is what is it called iOS? - Yeah. - And some of the text messages come through the iOS system rather than just your phone number. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So I don't get every single text. I haven't gotten it. Sometimes I'll be sitting in front of the computer and something, I was like, where did this come from? - Exactly. - Yeah. (laughing) - Exactly. - Nigeria. (laughing) - Don't think we forgot, forgot what the business idea. - Okay, so my pitch was pretty simple. It's a really simple idea. Business or societal proposal, if our homes are as empty as they are. And not in like a negative way, just most people, you wake up in the morning, you leave the house to go to work, you only come back in the evening, your house was empty for the entire day. The main reason you don't want somebody in your home is because you think they're gonna break things, change things, steal things, just smell up the place, whatever it is. - Use up your air conditioning. - All of this, all of this. - Smell up the place. - But imagine if we could find a way to pair each other up with your perfect house partner, someone who lives exactly like you, exactly like you. And there's gotta be somebody, 'cause we're not that interesting or unique as people. There's gotta be somebody who has the same vibe. Yeah, your lifestyle tend to match. They use your clones, they would sort of dress like you. They, you know what I mean? - You, but you're not dead. - Yes, you, but they work night shift. - Opposite shift of you. And so then whenever you leave your house, - They come in. - They come in and whenever you come back, they leave. And then you guys, you get to like help each other pay, and then homes are not sitting empty. And you need less housing. 'Cause right now we have a housing crisis, but if you think about it, most housing is sitting empty the whole day. And then you just have your perfect partner that's coming in. - But if I have a girlfriend, do they talk to her while I'm not there or? - No, no, no, no, no, no. - Where do we draw the line? - Well, we'll have to figure this out. It's what I'm saying. - So you have to live alone. 'Cause that sounds like pretty much every marriage I know is what you're saying. - No, there's not everyone has someone who just stays in their house. Your girlfriend is not always just at your house. That's what I'm saying. - That's a, (laughing) - Is your girlfriend always at your house? (laughing) - Don, yeah. - Are you sometimes, are you, sometimes are you like, okay, I need a break. (laughing) So would you say that, Trevor, that sometimes I need a break, how does this happen? - But you know what? When you said people need a break, I do think that couples need a break that way. Sometimes, sometimes, need. - Definitely. - Sometimes I'll go in the guest room and snooze, watch TV and sleep in there and maybe one of the dogs will follow me in, and I get a great chance. - Actually, can I ask you a question though? So how does your husband respond to this? - At first, he was weird about it and I said, but here's a thing, Trevor, it took me, I didn't get married until I was in my fifties. - Wow. - So I had been-- - You're over 50. - That's what I was saying, wow, too. - Ah, wait. - No, no, don't. I'm going through all that. - You need to come back home. - Should I tell my age? - If we walked in the streets together now, for three of us, I'm not even gassing up. If we walked together in the streets, people would not go, "Why are they with that old guy?" - No way. - Yeah. - They would just be like your friend. - Yeah. - I think he's your brother. - I don't know if I can tell my age here, I don't know. - I'm 60, I turn 60. - No way. - Yeah. - Man. - Thank you. - Like, you look good. - One hundred. - Thank you. - Like, I'm not a side, but I'm just saying. - Thank you, man. - I was going to say it. - I'm not a side, but done. Yo, you look good. - I'm married, Trevor. - No. - Thank you. - I think you appreciate that. - It's weird to say that because I don't feel that at all. - No, no, no. - You look at, you know it's for real of broadcasters. (laughing) - How? - I'm a feral caster. What? - Look at your skin, look at your, like everything. - Not a stick to makeup. That's one thing I do not miss about corporate. - The makeup was terrible. - Oh my god. - Okay. - It takes your skin. - And you don't need it. - It takes your skin, bro. - Yeah. - So you tell your husband, like, look, after how many years of being together do you say, I think sometimes you need it, a time out. - I don't really say it, I need a time out. I just go, I just go, I just go in the guest room, and I'm like, ah, I need, I need. - But the first time it happened, done. - No, he's like. - Because I remember there was a time out. - You were not sleeping in here with us? I'm like, I'm right next door, like relax. And then I said, I'm just gonna go and watch TV for a little bit, and then you have to like, ease in and then. - Take a little sleep and then I didn't, and sometimes I would wake up before he would go up and go in. - This is actually great. I'm taking notes for sure, yeah. - People that marry each other and live together, they first start by dating, right? - Yeah. - Yeah. - They hang out and then sleep over as happen, then stay over as happen, and the person goes, but I think I like having you around. Let's do this thing every day. How do we go from, I'll see you on a Tuesday. I'll see you the whole week. I'll see you the whole year to, I think I need three days, or two hours apart from me. I charge $130 an hour. - Come on. - So, let me tell you, I've had lots of therapy every week sometimes. How do you go from that? I think that's a choice. And I, whatever works for whatever relationship you're in, I told him, I'm like, I'm not good with sleeping in the same bed with someone. I just, I don't sleep well. - When you start dating, or now when you're married? - Always. And I just said, I have been single for so long and able to walk into my house and just do, if I want to drop my underwear at the door, I don't do that. But I, you know, I was just alone for so long. I think I just got used to it. Also, it's weird because I am a loner. People think like, you're this, I'm this extrovert. It's, so I'm a sort of extrovert introvert. - Yeah, I can relate to that. - Yeah. But I actually really love being by myself. And that doesn't mean I love my husband any less, and I don't want to be married to him. But I love, I'm very content being alone. - People don't understand necessarily. - Then how did you make that transition then? Because if you like being alone, you don't mind your own company. This is the guy that she chose. You're like, let's do this thing. Whose idea was living together? Because it's always one person that goes, this would be nice. Every day, like I love ice cream. Every day. - My fee is going up to 150. - I think he decided, I mean, we're like lesbians. Like at the third date, it was he like moved in. It was like, he had a moving truck. No, he kind of decided, I would come up and remember, I worked nights and I would come home like after midnight because I worked late at CNN and I had the 10 to usually midnight hour. And first couple of times I'd come home and he'd be on my couch and I'm like, oh hey, all right. Then I was like, I guess I can't, you know, I guess it's us, because what if I had invited somebody over? And I was like, how did you get in? He goes, oh, the door, man, it was fine. I mean, because we had, he had been coming over the door, man knew him or whatever. And then he started bringing his laundry over. And I was like, I said, you really like me because I have a washer and dryer in my heart. (laughing) In my condo, not because you, you know, really? And he goes, yeah, that was a joke. But I think he decided that and I'm okay with it. I'm okay with that. Someone has to decide, someone has to make the move. Then at some point you're like, I think I'll be in the other room hanging out. Then he was like, but I? No, not all the time. Every once in a while, you know, like if you're, if someone goes on a business trip, you're like, I get two days. (laughing) You're two days in the bed by myself. Yeah, you know why? So if you are an introvert, one of the things people take for granted is that your battery is charged differently to an extrovert, right? So extroverts in broad strokes are people who gain energy from being with other people. So the more they're with other people, the more energy they get. And the more people that come in, the more energy they get. So if you, if you were an extrovert at a party, you'll see this, the more people who walk into the room, the more energy they get, the more energy they get, the more, and if you're an introvert, you'll notice the opposite. When the party only has like 10 people, you're good. 15, 20, 25, 30, 45. And then you're like, when are we going? Yeah. Okay, when are we going home? I'm ready, I'm ready. The extroverts like the party just started. So when you're an introvert, even if you are with your person, sometimes you just need to be by yourself to recharge. It's not about the other person. You just want to recharge yourself and then come back to being with other people. So I can completely relate to that. And you know what, it's complicates it. If you're in the public eye and you're an introvert because everyone, people are like, "Oh, oh my god, hey, Don, hey, Trevor, hey, can I get a picture? Can we do a selfie?" And you're like, yeah, yeah. So when you get home, we're waiting for that a whole time. It's draining you the whole time. So then you're like, okay, I just want to sit on the couch and if someone comes and sit next to you, it's okay. But then you want like, it would be great just to have my space so that I can. Yeah. Yeah. Because you know, we have to be on sometimes. Yes, we have to be on. What's the perfect match for the type of personalities that you guys described, an introvert, extravert? What would be the perfect personality to be around? I think you adapt. It's not really a perfect personality. You just have to adapt. But because if you have someone, both of you are the same thing. I don't know, maybe that makes you closer or at least physically. Yeah. But I don't know. I just think it's, I don't know if that's true. Is your husband an extravert? It's weird. Yeah, I think he doesn't realize he's an extravert. Yeah, he made friends with the Dortmund. Yeah. That's true, actually. My husband is a little bit more sociable than I am, but I have a very large group of friends that we hang out with in the city and my friends have become his friends. And so I find that he likes to entertain more. He likes to go to dinner and I would be, I'm like Uber Eats, seamless. Like, what are we gonna do tonight? (laughing) Brat, he takes me out. He forces Eugene forces me to go out. A lot of my friends, let's go to this party. I'm like, okay, I'm gonna look what happened. Look at what happened. I keep telling you, this is why we don't go outside. We're gonna get arrested. They are asses. I keep telling you. - Oh my extrovert friends, I'm like, where are we going? Where are we going? Eugene is like, come on. Are we ordering in again, come on? Let's eat out, it's you, it's Lauren's, everyone. Let's go out, come on. That's how you go to jail, bro. If Nelson Mandela got Uber Eats, he would have never went to Robin Island. When did they catch Nelson Mandela? Where was Nelson Mandela? Driving outside, 27 years in prison. If that man got Uber Eats, he would have been comfortable in his house. - He wouldn't be going to the restaurant. - Trying to find someone else. - I would be enjoying himself. Ah, what a great time of marriage. Ah, ah, that's preferential, gather. He'd be at home enjoying himself. When he's seven years Eugene. - We're going to continue this conversation right after this short break. (upbeat music) - Can I ask you something? - Yeah. - I know, this is not my show. I'm going to ask you a question. - What do you mean, this is joking. - This is literally your show. Do whatever you want. Do you miss being in corporate media? - Not at all. Not at all. - You were surprised that I said that too. - No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I was surprised that you said you don't miss the, but then I think you answered my question when you followed up. What I was asking is, do you miss the job? I didn't even think of it as corporate media. I was asking if you missed the job. Because I think this applies to everyone regardless of whether they were on TV or radio or anything public-facing. We take for granted how much the thing we do slowly becomes who we think we are, right? Someone, and people say this was such confidence. You go, hey, my name is Mike. Hi, Mike, tell me about yourself. Well, I'm a doctor. It's amazing how that's the first thing people lead with. I am what I do, you know? And then if you take that away from them, all of a sudden they don't have an I am anymore. And people will sometimes even lead with that. Hey, Mike, so tell me about yourself. Well, I used to be a doctor. You're like, wait, what do you mean? Why would you tell me about what you used? I used to be a kindergartener. I don't tell you that. You know what I mean? But it's interesting how we've really made what we do who we are. And I think it's amplified when you're in the public eye because people see you as the job. That's how they identify you. Exactly. So now when you're no longer doing that, they don't know how to place you. So they're like, don't, don't, lemon. Yeah. So like, what do you, hey, yeah. What do you, what are you doing now? Yeah, it's that it's like a, it's because, and I understand it, people are not trying to be assholes. People are going, I only know you through your job. So if you do not have your job, I do not know how you exist anymore. That's right. Because you've never existed to me without the job. So I was just asking you if you miss the job itself, like the journalisming, but then, you know, as we continue talking, I realize you're still doing that. I'm still doing it. I'm basically doing the same thing with just with more freedom. Yeah, but talking and speaking of therapy, I had a lot of therapy in my life because I think it's really good for you. Yeah. So I never thought that I was my job ever. Like that's the best place to be. Never thought that I was my job. And like you, I know that all things good or bad come to an end. And eventually we will come to an end. See, that's the big one. So when that's over, if the universe has taken care of me for all these umpteenth years, why would I think that it's going to fail me? Why not? Yeah, there's the universe guy. I can talk to you. Yeah. Why now? So I look, is it, do I like the way I was treated on my way out? Do I like the, and just the, you know, sort of unfairness of it all? No. What happened to you on that? Because it happened so quickly. And it seemed like there was just craziness at sea. And what actually happened? It's the same thing that's happening to CBS and other networks. Yeah. We, they sold the company and the people who came in wanted to make room for more conservative voices. I don't have a problem with that, but they wanted to make room for Maga voices and people who came on who were insurrection deniers and election deniers and just coming on to lie. And I thought like, this is a journalistic organization. There is no, I don't believe in the false equivalency. There is no, there's no equivalence to someone who's coming on and giving you factual information about what's happening in the country and someone who you know is lying. Yeah. It's like saying, the election was stolen. Like, that is not true. We all know that. So why are you giving this person so much room? Because I think that the, what journalism and journalists is supposed to do is inform and educate and give facts. So we can still cover a story without giving someone a platform to just come on and directly lie to the American people like Donald Trump would do during, you know, his rallies during the first term. And then people realize, OK, we can't, we can't do that because people start to believe it. So I believe that when you, if you have the privilege of going on to a CNN or any network or Daily Show, it is a privilege. It's not a right, you don't have the right to go there. So you respect the platform and the people enough to be honest with them and tell the truth. So anyway, they wanted to make more room and move the network to the right. And I don't believe news is right or left, it just is. And so I would challenge conservatives who came on the line. They did not like it. And so what I believe, in my opinion, is that they were coming up with a predicate to get rid of me so they moved me to the morning so they came up with this idea. This is great for the mornings, whatever. And then from there, and just sort of-- people think that I got fired for something that I said about Nikki Haley, but that was not it. I had an interview with Vivek Ramaswamy on the morning show. I didn't even know he was coming on. It was not my guest. It was like my co-anchors guest. And I was like, when they said, Vivek Ramaswamy's coming, I'm like, OK, that's Poppy's guest. I don't-- not my business. And so he came on and he started lying about things and I'm like sitting there going. Black people got their rights because of the NRA, because the NRA fought for Black people's rights during the Civil War. This is what he was saying. And I was like, brah. None of this shit is true. And nobody was checking him. And I said, that is not true. And he goes, we have to be able to have these conversations. I said, yeah, if the conversation is true, you have to be honest on both sides. The NRA wasn't even around for the Civil War. Like, what the fuck are you talking about? Four days later, I was gone. And then they rushed a press conference to announce Charles Barkley and Gail King's show because they had gotten rid of their only black anchor in prime time anchor. You know what's always fascinated me is why in America, like let's call them-- or whatever people want to call them, mainstream, slash whatever organizations, why they always want to pander to a group that cares not to pander to them in any way, shape or form. So I don't remember Fox News ever going on a binge where they were like, we need to get as many liberal people on this network as possible, or Newsmax, or any of them. And Fox is the most profitable news channel. But I don't understand it. They've never once gone, we don't have enough of these voices. Let's get them on. 'Cause it doesn't work. Yeah, but why does that happen? Because the people who own the companies think like that. They are right-wing. Many of them are MAGA. The ones who are buying the companies now. Okay, no, that makes sense. Our Donald Trump supporters. There was an Ellison who owns-- Fair enough. Yeah, no, that makes sense. There was a Donald Trump appreciation dinner during the White House correspondent dinner. So they are very transparent about it. But yet on the other side, when you're a centrist or liberal, you're like, oh, I can't do that. You know, it's a conflict of interest. They don't give a shit about that. No, they don't. No, they're living their dream. I will say. But that's the thing I don't miss. So I think that's where Eugene and I talk about this all the time. We are in an interesting age of media where the structures that people have ordained for so long are going to fall apart because they don't present people with anything real anymore. It all feels like a facsimile of real. It feels like it's manufactured. It feels like it's manicured. It feels like it's put on. Yeah, so you find yourself watching the news going, is this the news? Is this what's happening? Is this what's actually going on? Is this-- you know what I mean? Yeah. And if you look at it through any lens, news, sports coverage, documentaries, whatever you-- it's interesting to see how the ones that are actually really experiencing growth-- the ones that just feel authentic. Whether or not you're for them is irrelevant. But the authenticity is what's-- And that's what's driving independent media right now is the authenticity. But your facsimile is a very good word. It's almost like steppered-wise. Where you get involved into it, and you just start watching it. That's exactly what-- that's how I feel sometimes now when I'll watch-- in the occasions, the moments when I'll watch the news. The real news. No, no, no, no. It'll be like, it's almost like, welcome. We are going to talk about a story now, and we have one guest. Hello, what is happening? Oh, many people have been killed. Oh, wow. Well, we have someone else who says the opposite. Many people have not been killed. Oh, what do you think? They have been killed. What do you think they've not been killed? Well, that's all we have time for. Now, time for our next story. And you're sitting there going, what happened? Yeah, what happened? So what happened? Nothing. Or it's this. I can't stand you fucking-- You know, and it's like fighting around the table and you'll Like what is being accomplished here? - Yeah, I hate that. - You're right, that's what's happening. And the authenticity is being in independent media or being an independent journalist, I don't miss that because before, my show was a little bit different 'cause I sort of relaxed. I was the last person on just 10 o'clock at night. But no one has conversations like that. No one sits around and cocktail dresses and suits with neck ties on and they're like, now we're going to have a conversation right now. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - How are you Eugene? What do you think? Eugene? (laughing) - But stand by. - I almost answered you. - Stand by, I'm going to-- - Oh, like do you want to know what I think? - I'm going to bring someone in and we're gonna have, we're gonna face time with Rob. Rob, you are standing there in the bar that we were talking about these guys. Hey, what's going on? Rob, like who talks like that? And so I think people, I think also COVID changed us. - It actually did, man. - Because people got used to seeing people in a natural environment and they're like, "Oh, I kind of like this." So I do my show from I have like a little studio and I got rid of my dining room tables just like this where my dining room once was. And I was like, "Why don't I set it up in my dining room?" And so that's where I do the show. And I come on and I'm like, "Hey everybody, "so glad you're with us today." "Oh, what are you gonna talk about?" - Okay. You do it with COVID style. - Yeah, and you just go, "Ah, what am I gonna talk about?" I could be doing this, we could talk about this, but this is what's on my mind right now. This was our topic, the whole of yesterday. Is what you said I'm talking about? The whole of yesterday is what we spoke about. - There's no, the thing is, is that there is no. I mean, I have a plan, but there is a, I'm not trying to get anything out of it. I'm not trying to make sure that we keep an audience. - You're not making a show. - In it by a minute. There's no agenda. The only agenda is to tell the truth and to engage with people. - Yeah. - This is a topic the whole day because we said, when people stop making a show, that's when the show gets made. - That's it. - You usually see it with car reviewers on YouTube. - Yeah. - When a manufacturer launches a certain model, it's all about the technical stuff, the cars, when they're selling you, but when a reviewer gets hold of it and says, "I don't like this, but I love this." And I hate that and I love that. That actually gets more traction and makes you go, "Do I want the car, don't I want the car?" And with people like you have authority and obviously experience in what you do, when you sit down and go, "Let's just figure it out together." That makes the conversation much more interesting. - Yes. - I agree. And the thing is there's one thing that I'm not a fan of - Being a side. - Being a side. - Sorry, sorry. - You don't know. (laughing) Where's my phone? Can I get a hall pass? I wanna show you something. (laughing) - Lucky he doesn't have this phone, too. (laughing) - It was Cindy and Apple. (laughing) - You were so close with Cindy. (laughing) It's gone head is phone. (laughing) - I'm not a fan of this feeling like I have to sell something because we don't have large corporate sponsorships. I would like to not have to go, and here's a word from our sponsors. - Let me just, I don't like that. I'm not, that's not my favorite part. - I swear it's like you, it's like you. - You were there. - We have to sell it. - But it's like you. - Like you were there. - I was having this comment literally yesterday, saying this to Eugene, my friend Ryan, we all hanging out there, and I said, this is what people don't even understand in politics right now. One of the main reasons Donald Trump has done so well and continues to win people. I mean, now he's losing them because of era. He always loses, it's funny. Trump always wins people with his rhetoric and loses people with his actions. - Yeah, you know, because of the policy. - The same thing happened during COVID. It's like, he wins the election. And then when you're like, when you have to run the country, people are like, what is happening? And then it all goes down. And then he comes in with the rhetoric, people love it. When you actually run the country, people are like, this is terrible. But the thing people don't realize is many politicians. He's authentic, he's not honest. There's a difference. But he's authentic. He'll come out and he'll say to you, I'm supposed to read from the teleprompter. There it is, teleprompter. I should read it. - Should you want me to read? I don't want to read. I got to read it. They want me to read it. I could read it. I could read, but I don't want to. - I said it, I said it meant it. I said it meant it meant it meant it meant it meant it. I guess. - Yeah, but then you can boy, that's a tough word. That's a tough word. Can you say that? I get a lot of people can't say it. That thing, authenticity. Politicians, let's just call it mainstream or legacy in any field has taken for granted. How much authenticity has been stripped from our society. Oh my God. And you know what, this is what happens. We live in cycles in life, right? Things will often start off as authentic. Once they achieve critical acclaim or success, they then start to become parodies of themselves because they're trying to maintain what they now have. - Yeah. - Right? So you have like a dating show or you have like survival, let's say. I would argue like the first season of survival was the only like real survival. 'Cause people didn't know what survival was supposed to be. - Big brother thing, yeah. - It was like, what is this thing? And then it was Richard, right? Remember the first like bad villainy guy who like, he was like, I'm just gonna break it. - Yeah, I'm gonna break this game. Everyone else was trying to do the real thing and Richard was like, no, I'm gonna screw this over. But people watch that and then went, oh, that's what we need to do. And survival itself went. This is what needs to be done. So now when you watch the survivor, people come in as a villain. But you're like, no, that's not authentic anymore. And so then what happens is. - And you know it's still on the air. - Oh yeah, it's still going strong. But it starts to become, it doesn't have the cultural cache that it once had. The same thing goes for dating shows. The first version of it will be authentic. People like, what is that same thing for reality shows? The first version is just, a camera crew comes in your house. They start filming, you get comfortable and you start having your real disputes. You have your, you know, like you even see. - It starts living your life. - The Hulk Hogan documentary. You see him saying, we didn't realize how invasive this would be. But they were having real fights in front of the camera. - Linda, yeah. - But now when people do reality show, it's scripted, they even like, yeah, they stage the fight, that strips away. What starts happening? The next generation of authentic comes. So then you end up with like, dating shows like pop the balloon. You know that pop the balloon show? - Yeah, but why? Because it was so much more authentic. These people didn't look like they had done any media training. They didn't give us any spiel. Someone just walked in and was just like, "Hey, my name's Brad." - Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. (laughs) - That's like bad for TV if you think about it. You'd be like, "No, no, no, don't all pop." - Yeah, but it ends at the beginning. - If that show had a show runner. - Yes. - It would say. - Okay, wait, and your story is this. - Yes, and then you're gonna pop a balloon when this happens. And you're gonna pop a balloon when this, no. Sometimes a person will walk in, not even speak. (mimics pop) - Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop, pop. Like none of these. (laughs) - That's, and why do people love it? It's authentic, you know what I mean? And I think we take for granted how authenticity, authenticity has been robbed of like, we're yearning for it in society. - Everything is produced, overly, overly produced. And you're right. And then the show or whatever it is, becomes a parody of itself. - There you go. - Right, it becomes the SNL skit of itself. - Yeah. - Why do people love hot wings on the internet? It's not because celebrities are eating spicy hot wings. It's because them eating the hot wing is the one thing they can't fake now. - Yeah, it's hard to laugh. - So if they go to a late night show and it's like, "Tell me about the time you went on vacation." - Yeah. - Oh, I can't believe you asked me that story that I told you about before we came out in front of the cameras. So what happened was, give the person a spicy hot wing that they cannot tolerate. As we say back home. The cool is gone. (laughing) You know what I mean? We saw Idris Albert choke. This is like the greatest action star of our lifetime. And he's, but you know what happened? We loved him more after that. We didn't go like, "I Idris can't be an action star." We're like, "Yo, we roll with you even harder." - Let me tell you, people love a hot mess. And people would ask me, you know, I don't know how you feel about Wendy Williams. - Oh, yeah. - Wendy Williams is the biggest winner. - He's a hot guy. - And love Wendy. - And love Wendy. - Love her. She is missed on how you do it. - How you do it? - People, she is missed on daytime television. - Her show, which I believe still be a success. - Yes. - And especially if like advertises were afraid of her, you know, the O and O, you know, the stations around the country were afraid of her because they didn't know what she was gonna say. And you know, people, "Oh my God, like with your accent." Well, he's just, she was so authentic. - And that was her superpower. - Yes, yes. - And I missed that on television. There's hardly any, if any television show or talk show that's like that. - But can I tell you, here's the irony. And this is what most people don't realize, especially when it comes to media. The great irony is the cycle. Something becomes popular. Advertises wish to partake in it. The advertises want to partake in it because it's popular. When they partake in it, they now wish to put Godrails on it. - Yeah. - Because they are worried about how they will be perceived. Not realizing that no one really cares. - No one cares about a brand. - No one cares about a brand as much as a brand cares about a brand. They think the streets are like, "Oh, so your ad on that, no, no one really cares." They start putting Godrails on the thing. They put so many Godrails that the thing loses all of its authenticity and popularity. It starts to dwindle. - And then they, and then they pull out. They go like, Sorry Don, it's not performing any more. - It's not performing, yes. - And you're like, "You made me stop being me." And now the thing's failed and now you're pulling out. And they're like, "Yeah, sorry. We're going for this new, you know, people are loving it. Watch what's gonna happen to it. Just give it time." - And they're so, you're right, they're so dumb. Like there was an advertiser who my sales guy comes in. You know, this advertiser's really nervous about your arrest and whatever. I said, how many more people are watching us because of that arrest? Like nobody cares, but you, no one cares. And in this environment now, it used to be 15 minutes of fame. It's 15 seconds. - Oh yeah, so it's now, and the new cycle, it's like a story goes in and then you're like, this is the biggest thing. And then Donald Trump tweets something. You're like, "Oh, forget about that. This is the biggest thing." - By the way, now that you bring that up, did you guys at CNN ever know that he was like, playing you guys like puppets? Did you ever figure it out at some point? - Oh yeah. - Okay. - Yeah. - Yeah. - No, 'cause there was a thing as well. - I think, I think, honestly, they maybe knew somewhere in the beginning, but it was good for business. Do you remember Les Moonvaz? He goes, "You know, Trump is bad for the country, but he's good for business." - He did say that, and-- - Jeff, as I could say, Donald Trump is many things, but one thing I'll tell you is he's a one-man ratings-riching bull machine. - And-- - Same with the, I think it was Roger Ailes. He called Trump, I was like, "Yo, why aren't you coming on?" When he, when Fox was fighting with Trump, Roger Ailes was phoning Trump. He's like, "Yo, I know we beefing, come on the show, man." - Let me tell you something. Donald Trump is a media genius. - Genius. - Yeah. - I got a story about that, but I tell you, Jeff got hip to it really early, and then, but he never told us what to say. We did not. The only thing that he would tell us is when we were doing interviews, when he allowed us to do interviews with us, just let him talk, in fact, check him. You can ask him anything. It's all in the way you ask the question. So you can say, Trevor, what is wrong with your hair? Or you can go, Trevor, you seem to have a really nice head of hair. What's going on? Is it, did you change something? Very similar question, right? Or you compliment him before. You're a marketing genius. Now, this one thing I don't understand, because it didn't quite go over well with your supporters. What happened? Wow, you know? - Oh, and then you're in. - And then you're in. What's the story? - Morning, Gloria. - Sorry, what did you say again? What were you asking? - We were talking about marketing genius. - Oh, marketing genius. - How are you doing, Donald Trump was going to win in 2016. - Yeah. - I, this was back in the day when I got newspapers delivered to my door. Now, everything's online. I prefer holding newspaper, but then it becomes too much. So I would get the Washington Post, the New York Times. Sometimes it would send me just for fun. The company, like the New York Post, all of it. So I open these newspapers. And Donald Trump is on the front page. And then I open the real estate section. Donald Trump is in the real estate section. Then I open the editorial section. There is Donald Trump. And then whatever. And I just, I was like, oh, and I was like, where is Hillary Clinton? Right? And I said, this man is going to win. And Tim said, why? I said, because he's everywhere. And he's sitting a, who knows? In his bed, on a toilet, or whatever, calling in the morning shows. Right? He didn't come in. He just calls in. Did it like that? I guess he got, he didn't have to go in, but he could talk to everybody. No, it's genius. Right. The reason Donald Trump did it like that is because he liked how it made him seem like the Wizard of Oz. Oh, yeah. So when Donald Trump would phone into a news show, but wouldn't be there, all the people on the show would just have to like sit there. Yeah. And it has the same effect of speaking to this like omnipotent power. So they all sit on the couch. You see them on Fox all the time. They sit on the couch and they go, so Mr. President. Yeah. So Mr. President, tell us. And then you just, you just see the picture, his picture, that like smoldering picture of his. And then he just talks. And everyone just has to stay at the picture. And in those moments, you don't realize subconsciously, you are saying that this person is so important. They do not have to be here, but we have to listen to everything they say. Yeah. And he knew the power of that. That's something I never even thought about. Yeah, he knew the power. I knew it on a media level, he's genius. But he knew the power of it. He also knew that he could be everywhere, everything everywhere, all at once, right? He could be everywhere on and on every show. And look, I think that there in modern history, in recent times, there's never been anyone more qualified to be president than Hillary Clinton. Okay. However, I don't believe that whatever media strategy she has or strategist that I think that they served her wrong because she would pick and choose. And I'm going to do this. And I'm like, you should be all over the place. What are you guys doing? Yeah, but so here's the thing to what Eugene said and what we were saying. When you stop trying to do the thing, that's when you will do the thing. That's when you'll do the thing. Have you noticed how people in divorce will finally become themselves? It's only when people are breaking up with each other that they'll finally tell the other person the truth of who they are. All of a sudden you'll say, I never liked sleeping in the same bed. I just want to sleep in my own room. And I don't want to go on vacation to this place. And then the person goes, wait, when were you going to tell me this? Yeah. When you stop trying to do the thing, ironically, that's often when you will do the thing. Is that what happened with Hillary Clinton? The same thing goes, if you want to see arguably the best, just like politician qualified, you all go and watch Hillary Clinton's interviews after she had lost the election and it was like done. Yes. I think there's one she did on how it's turned maybe or, you go, where was this person? Yeah, I agree. Yo, she is funny, smart, knowledgeable, throws the thing, she is fire, but you never saw that person on the campaign trail, because, but this is like the gift in the curse I always think in life. I argue, Donald Trump won the election because he just, like the 2016 election, he won it because he was just this crazy brash, take it to the limit person all the time. Yeah, no, no, no. But that's also the reason he lost the next election is because he had, there's two different skills in life, right? The ability to be a revolutionary does not mean that you will have the ability to govern. The ability to run for office does not mean you'll have the ability to run in office. To run in office. Yeah, to run in office, thank you. And so that's what people don't get is like, to your point of Hillary being overqualified, her measured nature, her thinking, all of those things are terrible for running. But part of that comes from the rules are different for women, so she had to, right? So part of that comes from that, but if you see her in person, I don't know if she's been on your show. When she came to my show, yeah. And she's like, hey, Don, how far? Oh, yeah. And not the person. I just want to, we saw her leaving the Kennedy Center when there was a function at the Kennedy Center and Tim and I were like, let's get out of here. And then she was coming around the other side. And she's like, let's get out of here. She bumped into us and she goes, I just want to go home and take my shoes off and eat my, whatever Uber eats in bed. And we're like, where was that? Because I, you know, people would have voted for that a million times. But I just, I think she probably did, you know, felt that she couldn't do that. Yeah, that's, but that's what I'm saying. And I, I think this goes beyond politics. I think in life, one of the greatest challenges you'll face as a human being is knowing when your gift becomes your curse and knowing when your curse becomes your gift. Yeah. I think of it through the lens of trauma all the time, right? Many of us in these worlds or anywhere can go back to a time in our lives when things were terrible. We might have had a tough time with our parents. We might have had a tough time in our families in our communities. We can go back and think, man, I remember hating my life or I remember wanting to escape, but then there's a moment where that curse becomes your gift, makes you see the world differently. It makes you process information in a way that nobody else can. It makes you think faster than other people. You deal with situations, you know what I mean? Like when I think of my life, I'm one of the calmest people in chaos. It's because my life was chaos. I get so calm in chaos and I just quiet. And then Tim is a warrior. He's like, oh my gosh, whatever. The engagement on the show is, I'm like, Tim, it's all, it's fine. And like when I got arrested, I was like, okay. And then I kept thinking I'm a journalist, so I'm going to like chronicle this and remember this. In case I want to have to talk about it in court, or maybe I want to write a book about it. And so I was just very calm, very calm, very calm. But now I would go like, what was your life like when you were growing up? - My life wasn't chaotic. I mean, I'm a, you know, Gen X. And so we did not have very much parental supervision. - Those little days. - I pretty much raised myself kind of. My grandmother was there and they call it nanny now, but my grandmother was there and she was like, she was our babysitter. But then pretty much like when I was, I think I was in junior high school, whatever. And they didn't, we didn't need my grandmother. So my parents would go away and my preteen sisters would be at home by ourselves. And so I would come home from school. My parents, both my parents worked. And so they call them latch key kids. But the TV raised me. The Brady Bunch, you know, when-- - Limited channels of sea runs. - It's the news you're reading. - It's the news you're getting from the TV. - Yes. - Yes. - And then-- - On the floor alternating hot cheeks. - Yeah. - And then at night I watched a lot of television. I think Norman Lear kind of raised me. So my life wasn't very chaotic, but it wasn't as structured as I probably needed at, you know, when I was growing up. But you see that, so that's what I'm saying is, without even knowing the details of it, I can go living in that type of life. Most people would argue, as you said, is a little more chaotic, but that means you're gonna be calm when there's chaos. But I also-- I didn't take care of myself there to rely on me. That's what I mean, yeah, right. And so then as I got older, I'm like, I gotta take care of myself. I gotta rely on me. - This too shall pass. - There you go. And, or maybe something good is gonna happen. Not maybe, something good is gonna happen out of every situation, there's something good that happens. But I think it's because I always had to rely on myself even from a very-- - I believe in the momentum of rock bottom. I so believe in it. 'Cause once things have gotten worse, I'm like, there's only one way now. In any situation, when the traffic gets really, really bad, I'm like, ha ha! It can't be like this forever. I've already experienced the worst of a thing. So I'm always looking out for those moments where else, I feel like when I was young, I used to avoid those moments of chaos, of feeling helpless, of feeling stranded. Now when that happens, I'm like, you have no idea how much of a jet propulsion that situation is. And I think we, from a generational point of view, we miss the chaos that we knew existed in how people were raising themselves, in how neighbors were involved, and grandparents were involved. And we stopped being those people to kids that we have, and neighbors that we have, because we kind of missed the drunk uncle. - Yeah, we do. - The drunk uncle was that guy. - That drunk uncle. - Yeah, you don't miss him? - You also know I really miss the drunk uncle. - Yeah. - The drunk uncle was the guy. - I had a drunk uncle, by the way, who used to drive. I would be in the backseat, he would drive drunk. And my mom said, you cannot go and get in the car with him. Because I said, you know, I won't say his name, but uncle, whatever. And I said, we went to such and such place, and I was in the backseat, we were driving home. And I was like, this, all over the backseat, she goes, do not get in the car with him anymore. That was my drunk uncle. And I loved him. - My drunk uncle, you should take me to a dice game. And then when things got hit, you'd be like, hold the money. - Damn. - And he said to me, yeah, if something happens, I'm gone. But nothing ever happened. You know, and one day we witnessed a stabbing, but I still made it home. But we stopped being those people. There was always the drunk uncle, the successful aunt, the one who does this, the one who does that, the neighbor who got out and still comes back for family occasions. But we missed television the way we grew up making television. That's why, when someone breaks away from traditional media and goes into this new media, I'm the happiest person in the world seeing them do things the way they should be done. Because ultimately, we recreating our childhood, we recreating those TV moments. And I think that's why people are paying attention. And I feel sorry for this younger generation because they're just copying other copies. We are actually doing radio the way we used to love listening to radio. But it's called a podcast now. We hanging out the way we used to love hanging out. Because a stranger coming in while we having a conversation has never been a big deal. Someone working in is never going to be like, so what do you do? It will always be like, so he's crazy. That idea of people just coming into people's houses. We're like, actually, it's not a bad idea. That's exactly what we need. Look, you're right about that. And speaking of me, we're talking about corporate media. Sometimes my friends who are in corporate meeting, they're starting podcasts now, and they'll invite me on their shows. And they're like, okay, what are we doing in segment two? And here's the script. And I'm like, what are we doing? Were you tapping our phones? Why do you want tapping our phones? It's TV. It's a TV podcast. This guy was tapping our phones. What did I say to you? Exactly what he said. And the thing is, it's like, no, it's like, you can go on tapping our phones. You go, hey, what's up? That's what he's tapping our phones, Eugene. But they haven't figured it out because, and they're in full makeup. And this guy was tapping our phones. Full guard, but I'm like, why are you doing that? You want people to see you the other way? Like, I did it. I sometimes I'll do like updates on my phone. Am I pajamas? And I'm like, do you want to tell-- There's an update. What is the criteria for a guest on this podcast? No, 100% are you hangable? Can we hang out with you? Do you think I'm hangable? Oh, God. Oh, my God. That's going to come on. You don't like me. Come with me. This guy. You playing game. That is the-- That is my one. Come on. This is the same guy. You know a person who's hangable is somebody who has range. This is somebody who I've seen reports on the most serious incidents happening in America. And then somebody who got drunk at New Year's Eve. I knew you were going to say that. On the ball was dropping. Relax. Let me tell you. You're mad. I don't even know. And you see like in that moment, genuinely, I remember liking you more. I went this guy. It's my role. Yeah. Because no, because it was-- I was like, oh, he's a human being. Yeah. And you guess what? Now everybody's getting drunk on New Year's Eve. Before they're like, you can-- what are you doing? I had people were calling and said, you have to maintain your stature as a journalist and especially a black man in this society. And I'm like, it's fucking New Year's Eve. Nobody's talking policy. Everybody's sitting at home getting lit. And so why can't I? And some of it is like you get into it. I'm not stumbling drunk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not, you know, it's like a little bit like Dean Martin in the-- Yeah, you're enjoying it. Yeah, yeah. You're enjoying it. Yeah, yeah. You're enjoying it. So, but-- Yeah, but you see what I mean? Now, because it was a success, because of how viral it went, because of everyone goes, would you like-- You were not trying to make a show? Would you like-- but now people are going to try to get drunk on New Year's Eve when covering it for the news because they wish to recreate the same thing that happened. It's-- it's-- Yeah. Man, life is weird how your-- like your gift will just be your curse. It'll just-- it'll just keep on coming back around. If it's not, as you said, authentic authenticity. If it's not authentic to you, people will sniff it out immediately. Yeah. And they'll say, yeah, no, I don't think this. We'll be right back after this. I have a question for you, because I was thinking about this. I thought of it earlier, and then it came back to me now. Do you think gay guys have more fun in relationships than straight guys? Oh, absolutely. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I'm awesome. I'm awesome. I'm the gay man at the table. I'm the gay man at the table, Eugene. Please. Please. Why? Eugene. Why does it hurt so bad? Yes, Eugene. That's what it means. Being gay is not an insult, Eugene. It's, I think it's a compliment. That means you're, you know, your-- It means you smell good. It smells good. It means you're dressed good. It means you know what's happening. You're overachiever. Got him. It means you wear a gene jacket with a black t-shirt. And clear glasses. No, but really, do you think-- I'm not gay, but my podcast partner. [LAUGHTER] You need to leave. [LAUGHTER] What were you saying? No, do I think-- Do you have that vibe? Yes, I do. Why do you think that is? Because I think that, you know, I think we have better things to worry about. Then some performative thing about what marriage or relationship should be like. I actually, look, I'm in sort of a very heteronormative relationship now. Yeah. We are monogamous, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But if we weren't at, you know, nobody-- I don't judge couples who have open relationships. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I mean, it's two men. Men are horny and fun, and they like to have fun. And also, sex is not an emotional thing for men. It's like, ah, yeah, that's right. It's okay. But a woman is like, oh my gosh. Generally. Yes, yes. There are very few women who are like Samantha on sex in the city. Well, it's actually funny. I think Esther Parallel said it beautifully once. She said, we have a misconception that sex is not emotional for men. It's just the emotions happen at a different time for men. That's true. That's true. So the sex is emotional for everybody, but it's more when the emotions present themselves that we're not so aware of. Were you gay your whole life? Yeah. So-- At a very early age, I knew that I was, but I didn't know quite what it meant. Actually, but I also knew that it was something I had to hide because-- In the south as well? Oh my gosh. Very religious family. Gosh, yeah. I mean, it's even worse in the south. Look at what happened in the south now. Yeah. Bible belt and all that. Louisiana. Deep south. You don't get much more southern men. Yeah. So I always knew. I always knew it was something that I had to hide. And then the moment I stopped hiding it, that's when I became me. More authentic. When did you come out? I sort of came out to my friends and co-workers. I was out with friends. Like, my mom used to say, like, how do you-- How do the gays find each other? Because she had never experienced so many gay men openly-- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. --in community. And so when she started to come into my circle and she realized, she's like, these are really great people. She goes, I think I got to tell you, Don. I think that gay people are the smartest people in the world. And I was like, OK. And she said, your homes are beautiful. The way you dress. Everybody's smart. Everybody has something interesting to say. And she says, that doesn't happen with us. Because I look at my friends and I go, what the hell? Are you stupid? Would you say that? So anyways, it was something that I had to hide until I didn't have to hide it. Who were you most afraid of when you had to come out? Well, I came out as I was saying. I came out two friends. And then I left Louisiana as I knew that I had to leave in order to become me. So my journalism teacher at LSU told me I would never make it as a journalist. I'm like, OK, whatever. He was right. So I moved to New York City and I started dating people and coming out and the people at work, like knew that I was gay and then I started gaining success and I moved around the country doing local news and in those markets I was out to my friends but I never talked about it openly professionally. And then someone said, "Hey, what you're doing is great. I think you have a book in you. You should write a book." And I started writing a book about my journeys in journalism and life and whatever and I got to the part where I left Louisiana and I'm like, "Oh, am I going to be the person who lies about it silent because there is deception and silence, a certain deception and silence." And I said, "If I'm going to be authentic and I have to have the same rules for myself that I have for the guests that come on, they must be candid." And I said, "I just wrote about it. It's like two or three pages in the book." And it's like, "I had to move for this reason and I needed to become myself and I was a gay person and at that point I knew that I could not do that in Louisiana." And so I moved to New York City and I just wrote that and then it became a huge thing. Back then there was 2011. Things are different now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a big deal. That's a big deal. And to have a news anchor on a major network like CNN come out, no one had done that. I think Rachel was out, but Rachel Madden, but she wasn't Rachel Madden like she was out. And how many people had done that? Zero. I was like the first to come out among the first, if not the first. Did you lose anyone? Yeah, I lost that person that I was before who was afraid of coming out and afraid of losing their livelihood. Damn, that's beautiful. So I lost that person, but everybody else, no, if I lost you because of that fuck it, I didn't give a shit. Yeah. That's a real thing because people would say, you know, there were rumors, but I never really talked about it. And then now I don't really care. And then it's hard for me to, in this day and age, I get it. But people who are in a safe place and who are not out, I'm like, okay, don't do that. But that's not my business. It happens. What do you think people don't realize they're missing out on by not coming out? I'm not like, let's say publicly writing a book about just, what do you think they're missing out on? I wish that we did not have to, you know, come out because human sexuality is so, you know, it is a spectrum. And actually, that's a great question for you is, so is it gay if somebody tries once? No. Okay. When does it become gay? I'm asking for a friend. (Laughter) Well, why don't you ask him because you remember the other night and we hung out. I didn't want to, okay, should I tell him? You don't want me to tell him? You know what? It's fine. (Laughter) No, I don't think that it's, I don't think that it's gay if you try, look, I have been gay for a long time. And there are people I know that I have hooked up with who are now married with children, married two women. And I don't think that they're gay. I just think that they're horny or that they are human. And they did something that doesn't necessarily mean that they're gay. Right. Look at what happens when people are in close quarters when they go to prison or whatever they call a gay for the stay. Because we have urges and especially when you're younger, your hormones are going crazy. So no, I don't believe that nor do I believe that it should be judged. I think if we were, we weren't so puritanical in this society and it wasn't so based on religion which it shouldn't be, then we might have healthier people and we wouldn't judge. In a safer society? In a safer society. Yeah, the safest society is the biggest one. Look at, look at, all you have to do is like scroll through your news feed and you look at all of the conservative people, the Christian people who get in trouble for doing weird things with kids are there saying, oh, gays are the worst and they end up being gay and they're ongoing. I got it now with the. With the boot. With the boot pictures. I lied to him more after that. I did actually. I lied to him more. Brian Nome. Yes. Christian Nome's husband. What do you do? He was found on websites or dating sites. He liked big. He's like, that was a fetish. He would basically dress up sort of as a woman but then put gigantic giant massive boobs and then go talk to women also, I guess, with giant boobs and it was a whole thing. But he wasn't gay. I don't think he's gay. No, no, no, no. That's his thing. That's his thing. That's his pension. And that's fine. That's not judging. And that's his thing. And that's fine. It really is interesting how, not just interesting, it's also sad. How many of these people are in power espousing one idea and then they get exposed for literally living the life that they have condemned in the worst way possible. But then they don't, there isn't like a redemption is maybe the wrong word but I wish that would make them go like, hey, look, so I, yeah, I actually am a conservative and I am also this and I am so we can be, do you get them saying they can't do that? Yeah, but I guess sometimes I think when you're in a position of power authority, it's easier to live a lie because most of the things that you see when you're up there are a lie. Yeah. Well, if you save your money, your money will earn interest, you know, you have to start a lie and then you'll get a position and the person goes, nothing here is true. Nothing here is true. So one lie from me is not going to make a big difference. But from what I'm hearing from Don is we must treat people who experiment the same way we treat people who put avocado and pizza. It might not belong there. Tell me, this is the truth. I'm going to get up now. Oh, you don't like it when you have avocado toast person. No, I don't put avocado on pizza. Yeah, I don't know where that came out. You don't have a car on pizza Trevor I don't put ever which pizza have I ever added avocado to I'm fat man. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no I'm fat man no no no daddy and daddy are fighting. I'm uncomfortable. Oh, you're gene. I was you gene Giovanni's you gene put large pepperoni put ever Cotto on pizza. I my friend my friend you can accuse me of many things gay. I will be gay on Epstein Island before I have put ever Cotto on pizza son and To be clear there's nothing wrong with being gay something wrong with being on Epstein's Island unless you were like working as like a clean No, something and you know what's happening. No one ever found that guy actually who was taking all those pictures now that we think about it Who was developing the pictures? Who was developing the pictures? I'm not saying anything It's so many questions. I'm not saying anything. Oh my gosh. You guys talk about this a lot. Does it bother you that people think that you're gay Me. Yeah, not even in the slightest. That's the last person that it bothers not even in because I start in a row. It's not even in the slightest You're the only person that has ever said it right and Trevor and I say to each other all the time That's gay. It's there's nothing. It's so here. Okay. Here's here's what it is for me. I'm I am very lucky. I'll say this I'm very lucky in that My mother who was my primary caregiver growing up Had this and still has a very It's almost Not progressive in the way she sees the world. So so my mom for instance, never really got into labels You get what I'm saying my mom was very As she would say it Tom Boyish when she was growing up. So my mom did you know, she played sports and she was rough and she was this and she was dead But that about it and so when my mom would meet like a gay or lesbian person She almost treats it like you're just experiencing something in life And she doesn't know how long that experience will be it could be one year It could be the whole your whole life. Yeah She does not think of it as like your your label and your conditioning or your anything So she doesn't think of it as good or bad. She just goes like oh, that's okay Like if she met you has done to be like oh done them and then let's say it came out that you were gay like in a conversation She'll be like oh wow and and then how long are you are you? Oh, wow and you so you're gonna do it forever? Wow But she wouldn't treat it like it's a bad thing. She just be like oh damn you're doing you're doing this This is this is how you live your life and same way she'll talk to somebody the way who's married by the way Does that make sense? Yeah, so if she talks to a married person she'll also go so you make wow and how long have you been married? Wow, and you're gonna be married your whole life wow She she just sees your decisions in life or the your proclivities or the way you are as you but I guess also Tina We were lucky because growing up we were never exposed to Shoes content We just say what you call Tina. Oh, no Tina. No Tina means us. Oh, okay. Tina is a serious. You do it for us. I was like I thought you call me Tina Yeah I was like whoa is that your drag man you want a Tina? Hey, don't you put that quick Tina? What's going on here Tina? No Tonight performing at the Don't enjoy by the way when I told you that there's always a way to ask the question. Yes, I asked you if you were gay and in that question Oh, that's fascinating. Yeah, it's good. This one. Oh, that is fascinating. Yeah, yeah, but you're saying We've ever thought about it Well So I was saying that we growing up we missed that bus of stigma. people who are gay, so we never, we never had those shows, we never had those movies where people who are gay are being victimized. Yeah, maybe for like, and I mean like us in the store. Yeah, yeah, just us. So we're not saying for everyone us. You know, we, we use the word gay as a way of saying, you don't want to do that. Yeah, it's not like, let's go ride a bicycle in the cold. No, I don't want. That's gay. Where now, so it was, you know what I mean? It was never derogatory for us, because we never, and when you see the history, maybe like in New York, of how the gay community was being targeted and how they had to form little communities of dancing and doing makeup and doing shows and just being free with each other. You're like, oh, okay, if you grew up seeing that, you would understand that there was a group of people who believed in a certain thing that were victimized by the rest of everyone, right? Yes, but I understand that. 100%. You understand it when I said being gay is not an insult. Yeah, I don't. You're still using it as an insult. But we'll use it for everything. Yeah, yeah. No, I'm saying we even use other things as an insult. Yeah, yeah, don't, don't even bet on Argentina. We will not, we will use every way, but we'll use anything as an insult. We can, we can use like, like you being Khosa now. Mm-hmm. Does that make sense? It's being what? Khosa. So I'm, I'm Khosa, my family, my culture. So Khosa, Zulu, Tzuana, Tzuana, Tzuana. Oh, God. But you can say that sometimes people say it with like, I'm a shangan. Yes. If you're being colorful. Yeah, shangan now. If you're being stubborn, you're being Zulu now. So it's not the, if you're, if it's completely insult, you're being, but you know what's interesting is the more, the more you travel, the more you realize how, depending on how you view it, I think it's beautifully complicated these things can be. Simple example. When I came to America, it was interesting to see how sensitive people got, if you refer to their weight, like if you said you're fat or you've gained weight or you, it was like a, it's the one of the biggest taboos. I'll tell you growing up in South Africa. In most parts of Africa that I've been to, my friends from the Middle East will tell me this as well. Fat was like a compliment. And if your grandparents said it to you, they never said it in like a negative way. They were like, oh, look at you getting fat. They're doing well. Yeah, and it was genuinely, you're doing well. More kids, when I was growing up, were roasted for being skinny. Like that was, oh my God. What's his name? Stix manzanzan. I mean, Malindy. Do you have, do you ever use the N word? Do you ever? Yeah. They use the N word in Africa. Yeah, but again, no, but this is a perfect example. We used it and still use it because it was like the most aspirational thing that existed in our world. It's funny. We were chilling with Vic Mensa on the show. I love it. And Vic was saying, whenever Africans use the N word, he's a little bit like, you guys are not saying it right. Yeah. The way you say it, he's like, me. Yeah. I don't know. It doesn't. He's like, I'm with you. But you're saying it wrong. There's too many E's in the word. There's too many. But I genuinely find it beautiful because I, if you are, here's how I'll put it. I think social media has robbed us of the nuance of the concentric circles that our lives are lived within. There are things you will say with your husband that you would never say to somebody who's not your husband. And then we expand it. There's things you'd say to your family that you would never say outside of your family. You expand it. There's things you'd say with your friends that you'd never say, you know what I mean? We've now made it seem like the words and phrases that we may use in our tiniest circles are the things that we, Eugene and I would never say certain things to other people, regardless of what the word is. Because we know, this is, no, you're not, you don't rule with us, you know what I mean? We wouldn't say anything, Shangan, we didn't say "tongue" because we know it's a derogatory term sometimes to say, Shangan, there's just like, but do you ever feel like that? It's like, I do. We've robbed ourselves as people of the ability to know that something is wrong, but within the context of friendships and relationships has no malice attached to it. I'm glad you said that because I've been dying too when I knew that when you asked me to be on the show. And then I saw this. I was like, oh, I gotta ask Trevor about this. So you said that you know, you don't say things that you know are wrong or inappropriate for that particular circle or what happened. I try my best not to. Yeah. So the Kevin Hart roast. Yes. How'd you feel about that? Man, that too many feelings about the Kevin Hart roast. I think the first feeling I had was, maybe I was naive or maybe roasts have changed, like I didn't like that the roast was as written as it was for everyone. That's the first thing I'll say, right? Because in my opinion, a roast is supposed to be an opportunity for each person to write the funniest expression of how they feel about another person and do their authentic brand. Yes, but even if it's not true, you're going, what are all the things I can roast you gene about, what are all the things I can roast done about, and they're not true, but these are things that come from my lens. I think I can make these things funny and it comes from a place of love. That's what I think a good roast is supposed to be. It's supposed to be people who know you, people who like you, and then you can, and there'll be like edges on the day is because you might not know someone so you can trust can get fired in any direction. So that's like on a comedy writing side. I was like, huh, it was weird when people like, let's scroll past that on the prom time. All the writers gave me that and I was like, wait, what do we do? Then why don't the writers just come and do this? That's the first thought I had. The second feeling I had was, it was just a weird one. I felt like it was weird that all the black comedians who came on stage told jokes about the people who were there. But then a lot of the white comedians who came on told jokes about black people. Yes. I was like, wait, wait, wait, I thought it was the roast of Kevin Hart. Say what you want about Cheryl Underwood, say what you want about Regina, say what you want about Naim or whoever's up there, but it was weird that like just, this was just like a black joke that had nothing to do with a person. And then you, you could just, you're like, wait, George Floyd. What? The roast of black people. Yeah, but you're like, but what does George Floyd have? I don't even understand the connecting thread between George Floyd and Kevin Hart. You haven't shown me the connecting thread at all. I don't know. What did you feel? Look, I'm all for a free speech and comedy. I think that comedians should be given a wide berth. But the really good ones understand how to do it and there must be a there there. I thought with some of those jokes, there's no there there. I look, Kevin Hart, I'm a huge fan of Kevin Hart. I really admire what he's done business-wise, you know, so that's a whole other thing. But I thought that I was uncomfortable with some of the white comedians who were making jokes about black people. I felt that it was just an excuse for them to be racist in public, in public. And it wasn't funny or interesting. As a matter of fact, I didn't laugh until Jeff Ross came up. The whole beginning of the thing, I was like, I don't, this isn't funny, why, what's happening here? And then Jeff Ross came on and I'm like, okay, good. And then Chelsea Handling. Chelsea's good. And so then, you know, and then I thought Cheryl Underwood stole the show. No, she was phenomenal. Amazing. Yeah. But I just thought it was, you know, if you're going to tell a joke, the very simple thing is that it has to be funny. And I didn't find some of those things funny. I found them insulting. That's a roast. But I didn't think that they were, I thought they were inappropriate, but do I think people should be canceled for it? No. I'm uncomfortable with it. I don't think that they should be doing it. I'm not a fan of it, but you do you. So I'll disagree with you on one side. I don't think anyone has the right to say anything is or isn't funny. Because a comedian, I've always hated that. Whenever someone says that wasn't funny, I'm like, no, no, no, I didn't find that funny. In the same way, some people don't think Korean food is nice and some people don't think that Indian food is good and some people, that's your opinion and that's fine. But you cannot say definitively is how I feel about anything that is a matter of taste. All right. There are many comedians who I don't find funny, but I would never say they are not funny. Because other people find them funny. Yeah, because it's music, it's a joke, it's a painting, it's completely subjective. Sometimes I watch it and I go like, huh, I don't think that was funny, but I don't go, it wasn't funny. That's the first thing for me. And I know it seems like semantics, but I think people. No, I understand you. I always think people should remember that not everything is for you and that's great. All right. That's the only thing that I disagree with. The thing that got me as I say was, I was going, I, because I love roasts, I just felt robbed because I felt like the roast wasn't about the people who were there. It was just like, you know, and then it, it was like, okay, like I'll give you an example. Here's a joke that I thought was, could be construed as racist, but I think was also extremely funny. I would have changed like one word. It was the joke when Shane Gillis said, Kevin Hart is so short, they would have to lynch him from a bonsai tree. Yeah. Joke wise, I think that's phenomenal. I think it's funny because of like what it is doing in the joke is a very funny thing. Now lynching is not funny, you know, slavery is not funny, all these things are not funny, but that's not like the job, the job of comedy is to funny in what's not funny. I think that. joke, it gets moded by every other joke of the night that wasn't as good technically from every other person who's there, not Shane Gillis, it's just like, but I'm like, yeah, but you know, cat Williams, I thought it was amazing. I thought there were some jokes that everyone said they were amazing. So again, can I tell you what I loved most about the roast fun enough? If you asked me as Trevor, you go like, what did you think about the roast? The thing I love most about it is that it made people feel something. The audience had a reaction, the people there, even Shane would say, damn, this section is not with us at all. People responded to it. Maybe I am, maybe I'm starved of authenticity so much that that's all I focused on, but I actually like that people were like, yeah, look, I like that you as Don had a feeling about it. I felt the same way because like I said, I wouldn't cancel anybody for it. I think it created a conversation and I think it's good for people to be pissed off and not like things. And you say, I disagree. Okay, great. We disagreed. That's just mean we don't like it. No, no, no, no, no, no. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So I, it is what it is. So I feel the same way. I'm glad it happened and it gave me something to talk about. It gave me content, but by no means am I criticizing Kevin Hart or, oh, yeah, no, no, no, no, we don't even say that. But you know what I'm saying? No, no, completely, completely. But that's why I say the great comedians for me because Cat did it really well. If you watch Cat's whole roast again, you can't tell if he believes it or doesn't believe it or like he, he, for me, he executed a 10 out of 10 roast because a, it felt like everything was written by him and b, it felt like everything was true from his point of view. He just said it in a funny way. But he had a higher degree of difficulty because he had been beefing for so long. So long. So, you know, he had that. I'm sure that was part of his thing. But Sheryl Underwood did the same for me. Sheryl was so good. When she came out and said, she said, I know your kind. Yeah. You white boys. I know your kind and public your, but it's like, oh, you wish you could hit that. Yeah. I wish you could. That, that to me is also, you know, like Eugene and I will talk about this all the time. Sometimes we, we, how can I put it? Let's go back to kids raising themselves. One of the things I'm sad about in today's world is that we no longer leave kids alone on a playground to resolve their own disputes or let them go ride their bikes all day. Just, just, you don't do that. Because what we then do is as a society, if we are raised as kids who have parents in the playgrounds all the time, we become kids who call our parents when something is wrong all the time and we don't resolve our disputes. When you're just on the playground, sometimes you're going to fight, sometimes you punch the other person, sometimes they punch you through your headlock, sometimes you just shout at each other, sometimes you walk away crying, sometimes you don't, sometimes you become best friends with that person. And I feel like that's necessary for a society to succeed. So for me, even in that world of, of the comedy, I think it's why Shane Gillis kept on saying, I phoned her, I phoned her and I asked her about these jokes, I phoned her because the audience there was going, "Ah, ah, Shayah, ah, ah, Shayah." And he's like, "No, guys, I phoned Cheryl and I, and he spoke about it afterwards." He even said on, on his podcast that he has with his friend, he said, "Man, that he's like, he said, man, the jokes were racist." He said it. He's like, "Ah, man, there's some crazy racist joke." He's like, "But I asked Cheryl about the ones about her husband and she said she, she loved them and, but the people weren't in, and now it goes to the parents in a way." I'm like, "Ah, sometimes it doesn't need to." As you were sitting, as you were talking about that, I think about the people who go on job interviews with their parents, like their parents will drive them to. Kids, young people now go on, their parents will drive them to a job interview. My husband who works in real estate, 30-year-old people who are looking for their first apartment or 20, come with their parents, come, and, yeah, and shaperone them. Yeah, we're gonna lose more than we think. I have another appointment. We're missing it. You going? Would you go to come back then? No, no, no, no. I mean, like, you gotta come back. No, okay, just, we'll do another one. You really like it? Yeah. Ha, done. You think we'd like this guy? You'd never do that to this guy. You think there's makeup here, done. I mean, this was amazing. I love this. This was like genuinely, man. This is what a podcast should be. Music to my ears, but for real one, thank you. Thank you for joining us. Can I be the third host? This was a great, great, great. There's no host here. There's just people in the table. If you feel like, yo, do you guys want a hang? Yeah. Do you ever put four people, five people, three, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no Rebecca Chain is our producer. Our development researcher is Marcia Robiu. Music, mixing and mastering by Hanna's Brown. Random other stuff by Ryan Padu. Thank you so much for listening. Join me next week for another episode of What Now.