Dominic Barton ON: Life in Uganda, Leading the largest Management Consultancy and Advice for Entrepreneurs

[MUSIC] >> Hello and welcome, ladies and gentlemen to the Young Guy International from wherever you're listening or watching this from. Welcome back to another episode of the Young Guy International. The Young Guy International is a podcast stemming from the Young Guy Initiative. The mission here is to create a socially connected world by diving deep into captivating stories, ideas and experiences from different individuals that she power today. I'm honored to have Dominic Bartol, the previous chancellor of the University of Waterloo, Karen Chairman, and obviously he also was one of the global managing partners from the Kenzian Co. for 32 years. And today we're going to discuss his journey. One of the things that I'll tell you before we get into it, was born in Uganda and lived there for about seven years. So there's a lot of conversation that we're going to have regarding that, and gardening his journey regarding the work that he did as the chancellor of the University of Waterloo, and where he intends to go also with his extensive experience. There's a lot that us young people can definitely tap into. So Dominic, welcome. Thank you again for agreeing to be on the Young Guy International. We're honored to have you here. >> Thank you, Darren. Thank you for having me and looking forward to talking with you. >> No problem. Thank you. My past episodes that I've been doing for the second season, I sort of start the podcast, so tapping into the roots of my guest. So I've asked them to tell me or agree to go from their heritage, from their background, but I wanted to spin this one, seeing as you grew up in Uganda and you lived in Uganda for about seven years. And that's where I wanted to start. To start with by asking you from your time in Uganda, what was your, what is your most vivid memory from your entire experience seven years? I know it's a long time ago, but the earliest memory you remember. >> So many memories and experiences. I mean, at a very superficial level, I just say it's colors. The color of the earth, the green, just the beauty. It's a beautiful country. And that vividness, it felt like someone's taken the veil off my eyes in terms of color and vibrancy. So that's one, that's an image. And whenever I go back, it's what I immediately feel. The second is the people, the dynamism. A lot of the, I went to school. I was able to go to school there and the friends I had. And kind of what people dreamed of wanting to do, being airplane pilots or being on the radio or I wanted to be a farmer. I think we just had different views. I remember that. And then, and then, I guess the other part I remember, I won't go into all the details. They talked about a head, Edie Amin came to our home at one particular point, looking for terrorists, if you will. Another form of guerrillas just outside where we were. So the experience of meeting him at a very young age, when he was actually at the time not seen as crazy or anything like that. He was a well-regarded general, but anyhow. So there's lots of memories. And it's really where it's a big part of my growing up. It's from that. He did mention the fact that you do go back a lot recently. And when I was doing my research, I saw that your parents started a missionary back in the 1960s. Is there still a connection between you and that work that they started or is as it changed and adjusted into something else that it is now? Yeah, there's still a relationship, but it's not. But it's my parent. My dad was there to set up theological college, Bishop Tucker College, which was in McConnell. And my wife, my wife, my mother was a nurse, right? And who was there? And so I've gone back to visit the theological college is thriving. There's a lot of people. My dad, when we moved back to Canada, a lot of students, some of the faculty would visit in Canada. So there was always that kind of a connection there. So it's another, my godfather, one of my godfathers was Janani LeWoom, who was the archbishop, who was actually killed by Edia Meen. But there's a lot. So there's a lot of link, sort of a feeling of linkage to a very bad period, which is, you know, was Uganda was able to come through and get through well. But it just reminds you of kind of the development of the country and where it is. So I'm not involved in that college in a direct way, but the students and faculty and people are very strong linkages. And linking that now to the work that you previously did, because your tenure has ended as Chancellor of the University of Washington. There have been ties, obviously, learning from those experiences. I want to go into that a little bit and talk about, obviously, right now, the University of Washington, we have very many passionate students, passionate about multiple things across campus. There's a lot of student expression. And for familiar experiences, seeing this and supporting this, for me, LeWo at the time is Chancellor. How important is or has student expression been to you throughout the US that you've been in UW? Yeah, I think it's very important. I mean, universities are special places where people can be able to speak about whatever they want to be able to speak about. You should feel free to be able to do that. And that's always been a tradition. And I think I'm proud of how the University of Waterloo has done that. That's the president, Vivek Goel. He thinks he thinks about that carefully. I think in these when they're controversial issues that come up where people have different views, I think it's very important to make sure that there's reasonable conversation that actually happens and that people don't move into kind of didactic, you know, it's one or zero type of thinking. Things are typically complicated. And I think it's important to have voice for that, but to be able to go through it, right, and be able to have as well as one possibly can, rational conversations about that. But I think it is a university is our important and played that type of role throughout history, if you will, particularly in North America. But I think again, for me, I would always would stress that sort of reasonable, rational conversation about where things making sure people can understand and all voices get to be heard and where it is and that it doesn't. And being very careful to about, you know, there's always, sometimes there's, it's right versus right decisions, right? One, it could be right that can also affect someone else's rights in terms of where they are. And I think we just need those are tricky decisions to focus on and work on. So it requires a good process to be able to have those kind of conversations, discussions in a constructive way. True, true. And you're spoken again, very passionately about the changing world. I've seen one in complication when you address the students and the parents. There's a lot of discussion that you have about how young people are the future. But we're also going to be able to mitigate the different issues that the world and from a global perspective and facing that in on that note, obviously you're spoken about having meaningful compensation. But what other advice would you give young people on how they can effectively tackle issues that they're passionate about? So it's beyond just speaking about it, but we're actively and tangibly getting it out there and making change of whatever capacity and level they can. Well, I think there's two things I would emphasize on that. One is that I think it's important to have a voice and have your, say, express your point of you don't hide in the background or assume someone else is going to do it. I think that's part of being a leader is you have a perspective and you have a voice and you're engaged. I think the second thing which is extremely important to me is one thing to have a voice, the other is to have impact just because you have a voice doesn't mean you have impact. And I think it's very important to think about how what is the way I can try and influence a decision. And I think a lot of people stop or fall short of that second one. They just focus on the voice and not the, okay, if we're going to have impact with this, what is it to, you know, we need to do to be able to affect some change or make sure that people understand that? Because at the end of the day, I think you want to have influence, not just loudness. So thinking through both those elements is important and understanding how decisions actually get made and being able to work in that I think is an important part of leadership. Otherwise it's just loudness. True, true I agree. I want to take this advantage a little bit because you did mention impact. It has been in many pound discussions where the whole world is going to be a big part of the world. question of how you measure impact is something that has been hard from people to sort of grasp and so on answer, but from your perspective and in your career and in your journey, how do you feel impact can be measured beyond influence, for example? Well, I think there's a number of dimensions in the impact investing space, for example. I think you can you know, one organization I'm involved with Leap Frog, we look at the number of people in the target area and there we're looking at, you know, people that say earning less than $11 a day, how many of those people's lives have you improved through the services that you're either providing, you know, the or product that you're selling, and you can measure that, right? In terms of word is, in healthcare, it's sort of you can, there are measures in terms of the the improving the quality of life, it could not, doesn't have to just be longevity, it can also be around the quality of life. So I think that there are actually quite, you know, on the climate side, you can on the decarbonization or biodiversity, there are ways of measuring that. So I think that there are ways of doing it. I think where it gets tougher as well being, you know, the mental, mental happiness and stability, but there's a lot of measures. I think that are there that you can look at and I think it's important that if you're going to do impact work that you do have some set of measures that you're focusing on, it's not some nebulous concept. True, so you would say that if there are organizations or if there are young people that are looking towards creating this impact, attacking, solutions effectively is they should have a measure that sort of explains what that impact is so that as you're working towards it, you have something that you're aligning your work essentially towards. And tying that back to a conversation that we had recently online when I had asked you to be on the podcast, you said that right now, you're very passionate and you're working towards sort of indigenous people's incandes of the truth and reconciliation aspect of it. And still on that point of impact, behind beyond speaking and creating dialogue around the issue, how do you believe Canada can better support tangibly the preservation and obviously the revitalization of indigenous peoples and their cultures in Canada. We tying that to impact but also tying it to tangible work. Yeah, that's a great question. I think there's a number of dimensions and it goes without saying that this is a long journey because we're coming from a very bad place. We heard Elder Henry talk about that at many of the convocations and sessions. Not in a angry way but a realistic way of the residential schools. People were not allowed to speak their language, the huge amount of discrimination that went on and fundamentally just a complete lack of respect for the culture and the history. And I think we've been making progress but we're a long way from getting to where we need to be. And so I think there's at least two dimensions to impact. One is what is the state of the well-being of Aboriginal people, traditional owners, first nations, people, what, you know, how many people are employed, what's their health level, what's the education level, how many indigenous students do we have in the university, right? Those are some measures as it affects the population and how do we compare it to the non-indigenous side. And I think we've seen some big gaps on that in terms of participation in terms of GDP per capita in terms of overall health and longevity, right? So we can measure a change there. The second dimension which you talked about too is I think around the understanding and respect of culture. And here I think that some of the measures to me would be, you know, what is the basic understanding of a high school student in Canada of indigenous culture, how far back does it go? What are some of the, you know, core concepts of how they how indigenous people, you know, think about nature, how they think about science, how they think about health care, how they think about law. There's indigenous law. You know, that so I and I think our we have a very, very poor understanding. That's why I got excited because I actually learned a lot through being a chancellor. Again, it was it was President Gowell who was really pushing that we do this. But I learned so much from elder Henry on that. And I'm seeing that also in Australia. I know with my work at Rio Tinto, you know, most of the land in which we mine is owned by by indigenous people. It's their land that we're having the privilege to work on. And that I was recently at a at an archaeological dig is 65,000 years of history that goes into this that we aren't tapping into. I mean, the knowledge that is there that we haven't we're not learning from is extraordinary. So I think there's a very big, you know, set of things we can be doing on the second dimension of impact, which is our understanding of the culture. It's not just because it's the it's a moral thing or a right thing. It's actually we can learn. We could I think we could have better science. We could have better social science. If we actually took the time to really tap into that knowledge of where things are. And I think we're only just beginning on that. And before we talk about your work in Rio Tinto, I wanted to circle back a little bit on the aspect to set of it being the social being it. There's lots that we can learn. And for example, having the social science aspect of it. But when you look at mindset and you look at what the indigenous people might be feeling, how do we work with them to make it seem or may not make sure they do not feel like we are doing this simply because it is what's being spoken about right now or simply because it's it's a buzz right now. And because it's easy to be spoken about or there's a lot of funding going that way. So we need to start including them. How do we take it away from that and make it more of because they are people because they own the land because they are one of us. We should be working with them. We should be thinking about them because I think right now in the world is there's a lot of what's quick to do, what makes what looks good to do is what's being yeah greenwashing and sort of you know superficial approach. Well I think what one thing is something you mentioned is you have to think we have to start from the premise of respect right there is something that we can learn and I truly believe that but I think we all have to this is not about we're doing it because it's the right thing or because there were many wrongs and this is a way to write it it's not that it's about there are elements of for example how how you know on the environment with 65 thousand years of history they they actually have seen quite a lot of change and probably understand how humans can adapt effectively with nature that we might want to learn from how you know you think about water usage resource usage and then I think there's the whole there's culture there's the literature the traditions social dynamics as I said the sociology but I think this is all from the premise of there's something to learn that we can be better by doing this we're not doing it because it sounds good or feels good it's we're going to learn something and I think there's many dimensions of that as I said there's there is aboriginal or indigenous indigenous law it's different than our legal system there there's a view about how to live and work with nature there's how families operate and how you take care of elders how you take care of young people how you interact that I think we can learn from those are those are three of many many many different dimensions that are there so that I think we need to dig much more deeply into that it's just something we haven't we haven't spent the time tapping into globally I agree yeah and on that point of obviously creating tapping into it a bit more and making sure that we are investing and investing our minds into actually learning and standing then then that can be extrapolated into the different other aspects of really appreciating what it is they do and going beyond like we had mentioned remotion when you mentioned you work with Rio Tinto it was actually a good segment into the next question because on my research that I've done I've seen that Rio Tinto is a leading global minor global minor for my question around this because right now there's also a general global pushed what's really understanding mind really understanding the labor laws behind mining in different parts of the world but how do you see technological advancements shaping the future of sustainable mining practices when you look at the work Rio Tinto is doing not just I mean Australia but in Canada as well. And I think maybe we could start with sort of understanding how you see that and then the other goals because I have around sustainability and corporate profitability can come in. - Yeah, well, I think a couple of convictions, if you will, are views over the world from on the mining side. The first is that we have a massive gap in understanding and just a supply demand gap between the importance of materials, copper, aluminum, steel, iron ore, lithium, nickel, for us to be able to make the energy transition happen. If we're gonna get to net zero by 2050, we need material to do that. And there is a huge supply demand gap on that side. There's way more demand than there is supply for these materials. And the challenge there is the mining industry, and I'm looking in the mirror when I say we've done a terrible job describing what we do. We're seen as, you know, people that pillage the ground, burn, rip up the ground to get, you know. And there's good reason for that because we have, and you mentioned child labor practices, our tisinal mining, there's a whole range of different activities, tailings, dams, disasters. But the fundamental fact of the matter, those we do not have enough material, the critical material we need to make the energy transfer, we're gonna have to do it. And so how do we do it sustainably and effectively? Is a critical question. And technology is gonna play a very fundamental role in that. I mean, early this morning, I was meeting with our chief technologist, I mean, in Rio Tinto, we spent about $400 million a year on R&D. It's sort of looking for new materials, new ways of processing materials so we can do it in a more sustainable way, ways to be able to recycle that, ways to be able to reduce the waste, ways to be able to rehabilitate faster. There's a whole range of things that are happening, and we're gonna require capital. In my view, I think mining companies are gonna have to think of themselves much more as technology companies than they think of themselves today. Because of this innovation that's required at us, again, this huge gap between the demand and the supply of what we've got. So it's an industry that's in the midst of a couple of very important transitions, but with a reputation that's crap. That's what we have to work on, to have the social license to be able to do what we need to do. Yeah, so again, I think that the mining industry has to do a much better job of earning the social license to be able to mine and process what's important. But I also think there needs to be a better understanding of the world of the importance of mining, because we will not be able to make the net zero commitments, which the world needs to make in 2050. If we do not have the copper, iron ore, aluminum, nickel, it could go through the range of lithium, we just won't have it, and we have a very large and increasing gap that's there. So I'm very worried about that because of the scale of what needs to be done. And where the industry is. And I think there will also have to be a lot of technological innovation. We're on every dimension of mining. The materials that we use, I think it'll be a lot of innovation in material science, where we find the material, how we process it, how we recycle it, how we rehabilitate the land, all of that. There's going to have to be, you know, improved, innovative. So there's a lot of exciting opportunities in the industry. - And regarding that, how then do you think that with these technological advancements, will they contribute to creating both environmental sustainability, which is what we are trying to achieve, obviously with the goal of net zero by 2050. But at the same time, because we are into it is a business and sure that you have corporate profitability. I think I'm asking that in a more broad sense as well as that there are businesses out there that struggle to manage both environmental sustainability, which is becoming a social, it's a social past that so many people are talking about, but they also want to maintain corporate profitability. From your experience, how does one balance ensuring that they have both, or do you not balance and focus on one? - I think the two go together, they're an end, they're not an or if you are long term, if you're short term, probably the profitability will dominate the sustainability point of view. But I think companies that think short term are not successful. So it's in the, the two go together. So we, as part of what we're doing, we, I think what we're doing in terms of our purpose is very important for the world, for sustainability, finding these materials that are needed for the energy transition. But we also want to do it in a, we want to mine in a sustainable manner. So we've set targets, we'll reduce our carbon footprint by 50% by 2030, and we will have zero carbon emissions in 2050. That's a pretty radical thing to say, but, and we also want to earn very good profits for our shareholders. We're going to do both. And I think they're very consistent. I'm in favor of carbon pricing. Even though carbon pricing doesn't exist, I'm assuming it's going to be in place in 10 years in some manner or form. And so we will operate this though, there is a cost to carbon in what we do. I don't really care what policies or not are in the short term, are going to occur, because we're a long term company. We think in 30 or at least time horizons. And so the two go together. If you're short term, they don't. But again, if you're short term, I don't think you last very long as an organization. True, because obviously you're thinking of creating simple solutions for now. I'm not thinking about how your solutions are going to impact generations to come. And speaking of obviously organizations thinking both long term and short term, there are many young people that are watching this. Many are entrepreneurs. And for young people, I was invested in entrepreneurship. In your experience and in the work that you see now, what are some of the key factors that young people can consider when starting adventure? And how can they navigate the challenges of building and sustaining the business and ensuring that it groups and develops? I think there's a number of core elements to that. I think one is being very clear about the problem you're solving. What is the-- and B is precise as you possibly can, not vague. What is the problem you are trying to solve? And then the second thing I think is asking a lot of questions and asking for a lot of help. I find myself included. I spend a lot of time trying to figure out stuff myself. Or it was almost-- it was not polite or wasn't right. Or it wasn't seen as a good thing to be asking a lot of questions or especially asking for help. And I would really emphasize talking to people, getting ideas, what even helping refine the problem that you're trying to solve. But I think it's very important to have that clear mission, which is around the problem you're trying to solve. And then get as much help as you possibly can by talking to people, getting different views. Knowing that, by the way, some of the views will be contradictory, doesn't matter. But just hear kind of what drawn other people's wisdom to as you're putting it through. And then the other part, as it said, is be, don't be fixated. Make sure you are open-minded about the approach as you learn. You may have to change the approach I'm taking. This isn't working. Let's try something else. So I think it's an overused word, but agile. You know that you can kind of-- this I tried this. It didn't work. Let's go this way. That didn't work. Let's try this. It just be a just work it. But stay focused on the problem you're trying to solve. And as a young person is building and staying focused on this problem, obviously navigating the challenges, how did they instill this idea, this mindset, of sustaining the business and ensuring that regardless of the different turns that you're going to have to make, the different rejections that you will have to face? How does one maintain that resolve to continue, regardless of all the external factors trying to work against the work that-- or the business that you have started? Yeah, well, I think it's a it's a it's sort of people talk about it as grit or you know drive or you know It's it's a persistence. I think that's important. But again, I think you want to be Reasonable because there's a fine line between being resilient and persistent and being crazy, right? I mean if it's not going to work then maybe don't that's okay to learn it but don't I wouldn't give up early Try push because I said try different move move it around Move move move the kind of components around But I think it's you you know keeping that focus again. What is the problem? I'm actually trying to solve and if it's really important to you and which it hopefully is if you're going to be an entrepreneur and try and build things for you want to make sure that that is enduring right and and What that means is how you are solving that problem today may have to adjust itself over time and you'd be comfortable for that But the main thing is just to get something Don't get something out that can be tested quickly. You know You don't what don't spend Years or months trying to develop get something that's out quickly that you can test because you'll learn An adjust faster And I found that's one of that's a mistake many people make pretty you know There's that phrase, you know perfection Is the enemy of the good you know to mean no don't make perfect the enemy of the good Because nothing's perfect and and just keep just you know keep adjusting trying that's at least the model I would follow And it's interesting you said that as well of the aspect of making sure that if something isn't working Let it go. Maybe it's not what you're meant to be doing because there is a quote that Einstein said Don't be too fixated on trying something you should know Went to quit and went to give up because then that will help you try or put your energy into something else and Still on this point of entrepreneurship Um, we recently may seem to grow than the development of social entrepreneurship and I wanted to pick your brain on How you think social entrepreneurship is going to become a former entrepreneurship that many people begin to go into because of one The fact that it's able to balance impact and also profitability. How do you see that growing as as a form of entrepreneurship going forward Yeah, maybe just before I get into what would be an example in your mind of a social entrepreneurship um Activity no problem. So say for example, I'll give my example of the young guy initiative And what we do is we we're a social entrepreneur enterprise focused on um helping create a space for young people to be where the interest needs and aspirations are heard and we do that in three different ways We have a nonprofit arm which does um nonprofit work for schools and in Uganda But we also have the podcast that was created to support the work that That the foundation does because we realized that in order for the foundation to run as a nonprofit It needs an arm of financing to be able to go into it So creating an enterprise such as the podcast for example to generate funding for a social cause being the the nonprofit organization in Uganda It's sort of a way that we are positioning ourselves to being a social enterprise. So that's that's the thinking of how I assume social enterprises are being created creating business for good but in sense also generating revenue to run the business for good Yeah, so I actually don't see a huge amount of difference between social entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship I think the metrics that you use to evaluate how you're Doing may differ, right? But but I think at the end of the day you're solving a problem You're trying to make something better or different or some I think it's important to have that And then as you said right you need resources to be able to make it Sustainable what's the flywheel that's gonna Allow that to continue Over time, what's the basis for it because you you know relying on Handouts or aid or charity is not sustainable, right? It's got to have a Flywheel and that but that's part of a that's a business model if you will right? There is a business model that goes with it So I actually think that a lot of the core elements of social entrepreneurship and entrepreneurship are very much the same It's the metrics that may be different right in terms of the um of how you assess it You know, it's it's like it's like there may be more of a focus on the impact side on the social entrepreneurship Issued and unprofitability right you're you're in what you you've just described which it you know sounds like a really good social Entrepreneurship At initiative is not so much focused on you're not trying to maximize profits You're you're actually trying to maximize impact, but you need Profitability to be able to fund that in piece of it so that so but but the fundamentals of the success of both I think are quite similar True and on that point I know you have extensive experience especially with leap forward investments on investments How then there's an organization starting up position itself for The right kind of investments whether that be for social enterprise or enterprise in general How does how does one position themselves for the right kind of long-term investment whether it's to venture capitalism How does one in your experience through the work that you've been involved in position themselves for them? Well, I think on a couple of dimensions one again is being very clear about the problem You're trying to solve and then the the measures by which you will you will assess success or failure I think it being very clear and that again can have a Profit dimension and have an impact dimension right it depends on Where you are on that spectrum, but I think you need both You even an up-sure for profit if you're not having impact you're probably not going to be sustainable And if you're just on impact, but you don't have a cash flow you're probably not going to be sustainable So I think being very clear about Those dimensions is important is important and then then you have to immediately then go to who your investors Who are you going to fund and investors will have a pretty clear idea about what they want as to whether they want to invest In you or not and they will be looking for metrics To assess that and I think it's very important to stay close to those LPs the limited partners in your venture Because they they're investing in you for they want results again It could get impact and profitability or you know, but they'll have clear dimensions of that and I would make sure that that's You're therefore measuring that on a regular basis and reporting it and discussing it with the investors who are With you or potentially could even be if it's customers that are supporting you that they understand what it is the you are You know delivering and are they happy or not With that I think you can go to the dimension of also employees. Just part of sustainability is also Do people want to work? For you or your organization over time And if you don't treat people properly you will not have a sustainable Business so I so I think there's various stakeholders that You need to ensure our Feeling good or at least what you said you're going to do on the tin is actually occurring or you'll lose the Sustainability of that business or a social enterprise true and as we wrap up the conversation I think this would be the best place to talk about just briefly about looking back at your 32 years with With Mackenzie and co and now In a rapidly changing world obviously you've experienced lots of different Mindsets but also lots of different people that think about things differently in In this world and in this industry um as we wrap up for our audience Are there any particular mindset or habits that have helped you um navigate uncertainty and how can Myself or my peers sort of use some of those mindsets to navigate uncertainty and Create things that have an impact also create growth in the world that We are in Yeah, I think there's a number of things at least as I reflect On my own career and what up new mistakes I made or things I wish I did differently and some things I'm glad I did But maybe I didn't know we're gonna be That important because you we're all trying to figure this out right? I don't I very much believe that life is not linear We don't it's how we we're trying to Learn and discover how it works, but for me is what I think about it what's been most important as I look back has been um What I call jumping into swimming pools where you don't really know if you can swim or not and that's come in the dimension of Moving to a different country a radically different place where you don't necessarily know the language You don't know the culture you don't have any relation relationships, you by definition, that would be learning at an inordinate intensity. And for me, that whenever I moved, whether it be to, the first was in Australia, then it was in South Korea, then it was in China, then it was in New York. It's your, I found my growth rate increased multifold. It's different roles. I spent some time in government toward the end of my sort of business career. That was an incredible learning and it felt because I learned stuff. I didn't even know what I didn't know. I wish I'd done it earlier. I think I would have been a better leader. I think doing work in the social sector is also very important. All my experiences I had there, I learned a huge amount. It wasn't even so much about the impact you're trying to have. I learned a lot about things I wasn't aware of. So those to me are some of the rocket fuel, if you will, for development. By the way, it differs for different people, but I think that. Sometimes it's been, I was just meeting with someone last night who's a rower, quite a de-elympic level and sort of spent a lot of the time rowing versus being in school. But they learn, they learn a huge amount about life, intensity, goals, teamwork from a sport. And that can happen too. So again, I think it's, but I think it's your question's a great one because I think it's, we've all got to figure out ways that we can learn fast and we can learn continuously. It's lifelong learning. It's not, we're not done when we're finished university. It's a continual process. And I, one of the, an old mentor of mine, he was actually not telling me, he was telling someone else this, but it stuck in my brain as kind of if you're not growing, you're dying. And I think that's a pretty harsh statement to make, but it's this notion of you just got to keep learning, trying things at the open-minded, don't be dogmatic. You know what? Why is this happening? What can I learn from it? Doesn't mean be placid or don't do anything on thing, but just be curious. Be curious. And put yourself in situations where you have to learn sometimes. That's at least for me was, was important. But for other people that may be the worst thing, I don't know, but for me, that was something that was very important for me. And I think those experiences, those lessons are things that many people watch listening can take away from it because that aspect of continuous learning is something that's very valuable. Because through that, there's lots that you can pick on and lots that you can use to then have an impact or implement things that can then go on to have greater impact. So I agree with you on the aspect of continuous learning. And I do want to thank you again for sharing one of your experiences with us. But also how best your experience has influenced many of the things that you're able to do. Because I think from your experiences to the audiences, there's a lot of knowledge that you have shared with us. But also, there's a lot that we can pick from being able to do for our team. So I do want to thank you for agreeing again to be on the Young International Podcast. We're grateful to have you here. We're grateful for you for sharing your experiences with us and with our audience. And you know, there's very very valuable information and insights shared that we are going to share. Thank you again for agreeing to be on. Thank you, Darren. Thanks for having me. Bye for now. Thank you. And to the audience, thank you again for watching. Please do subscribe. Follow us and we have more content coming. Thank you. Take care and we will see you soon.