Domestic Violence Crisis Now Impacts 1 in 2 Women, with Oprah and author Rachel Louise Snyder

One in two women in the United States will experience sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. Research shows that the most dangerous place for a woman is right inside her own home. I had a conversation with this woman, Susan, who was a mother of three who had endured 17 years of physical and emotional abuse by her husband. We all have asked this question over the years. Why do you stay? Why do you stay? And you say we should be asking the question, why is he violent? Hi, and welcome to the Oprah Podcast. You know, over the years, I've been talking about domestic violence or women. We did more than 120 Oprah shows on domestic violence. I first started talking about it in 1986. That's when the show was launched. And back then, the stats in 1986 were one out of four women were impacted by some form of domestic violence. And now, 2026, after all of that talking, and all of those years, and all that we know, and women's self-awakening and self-empowerment, things have not gotten better. They've actually gotten worse. The current stats are one in two women in the United States will experience sexual violence, physical violence, or stalking by an intimate partner in their lifetime. That means if you're listening and you're not one, you know somebody who is or will be. This is so hard to believe and so unacceptable for us as a civil society, and tough to hear. Research shows that the most dangerous place for a woman is right inside her own home, and that the leading cause of death for women during pregnancy or postpartum is homicide. Pretty shocking, right? So to understand the scope and impact of these terrible statistics, I am joined by the author of the award-winning and best-selling book, "No Visible Bruises," what we don't know about domestic violence, can kill us. Journalist Rachel Louis Snyder, welcome Rachel. Thank you for being here with me. Thank you for having me. Well, what is the significance, Rachel, of the title, "No Visible Bruises." I love that title. I think that we really, all of the systems that we have created prioritize physical violence. We, in particular, prioritize marks that we can see, but a lot of domestic violence is psychological, emotional, coercion. You mentioned stalking, in your opening, things like financial control. All of these are forms of domestic financial control. Absolutely, financial control. That's a new one, because I think a lot of women do not think that their husband having control over the finances and belittling them for spending. You know, it's one thing to say, "We have a family budget," but I hear that women, young women, are being belittled for their spending or wanting to spend time with their friends. But that is also a form of abuse. Absolutely, it is. So all of these don't require physical, they don't require a punch or a kick or any kind of bruise at all. That's why it's "No Visible Bruises." Absolutely, absolutely. And I think it's so amazing, as you're saying this, I know that there's somebody who's listening who is just under the belief or feeling that it's not so bad. I mean, you don't have physical freedom. There's a whole bunch of activity that happens around domestic violence that we don't really know how to calculate. And those are things like, "I don't want you to have friends over because your friends don't like me." Or, "I don't want to go to your family's home because your family doesn't like me," which, by the way, may be true. Right? The family may not like him because he's abusing her. At least since it's something's off. Yeah, yeah. Or, you know, I see the way men on the street look at you when you wear those mini skirts. I don't think you should wear those mini skirts. There's all these kind of small slights and small degradations that happen before anybody is ever kicked or punched. During the many, many, many, many years and times that I was doing shows talking about this, I think in the beginning, a lot of women see it as flattery. Oh, he loves me. He doesn't want me to, you know, he's jealous of me and they are flattered by that. And then it just increases totally. And so, so my thing is, and you know this, too, because you have, you know, spent eight years interviewing victims and law enforcement and abusers themselves, that the moment it starts, that's when you should put it in check. Oh, yeah, I tell my daughter, if a guy shows up on the lawn with an orchestra or a boom box and he's playing, that's not romantic. That's stalking. Yeah. Go away, right? Yeah. So as I said, you spent all this time interviewing victims and law enforcement and abusers themselves and you say, this is, if you get nothing else from this today, I hope we can make the shift in our culture. You say the term domestic violence, which I've used over the years, everybody uses, does not accurately describe what happens to women, what does, what is the term we should be using? Terrorism, I call it terrorism. Sometimes I call it intimate terrorism. intimate partner terrorism. Yeah, I don't call it that because it's not always from the partner, right? It could be from a brother. It could be from a parent. There's all kinds of abuse that goes on behind closed doors that isn't always just from the partner, a child can be abusive to a parent. So the key is the word terrorism. If you think about someone who, you think about walking on eggshells as a writer, I hate cliches, but it's a useful one. Yes. You walk on eggshells. You want to make sure that dinner is on the table at six o'clock. You want to make sure that the kids aren't being loud. You want to make sure that everything is in place so that you can ward off whatever violence. And you're walking on eggshells and you don't know which one is going to slightly crack that day and send the person off on a tangent that you couldn't even imagine. It's absolutely unpredictable. And that's part of the point is that unpredictability is that I am the one in control. And I am the one who says you do this or you don't do this. Are you surprised as I was surprised when I read your book? I was surprised that I've been talking about it all these years and there've been multiple articles about it and people have talked about it and movies about it. And that the stats were one out of four in the 80s and now they're one out of two now. Are you surprised that we've gone backwards? I'm not surprised by that and I'll tell you all that we know with all the, with all of our self empowerment and all that we know. I know there's this woman in my book says we're leaping backwards at an obscene pace is such a telling line. There is a positive way to look at it actually because it's like inflict a tiny bit of hope which is that I think there are more resources known now. Certainly in 1986 there was no national domestic violence hotline. So there's more reporting of it now but I'm also not surprised because there is a backlash going on right now. And I think I guess I just sort of expected it. So you say for most of human history I was surprised by this too. I knew it but I hadn't absorbed it that for most of human history society didn't even recognize domestic violence as being wrong. I mean that and still in other parts of the world it's perfectly legal to beat your wife beat your spouse. And in fact it's a sign of status in your social circle that you control. When I wrote this book part of why I wrote it was that I misunderstood so much about domestic violence myself. First of all I never thought about it. It's not something you think about unless you're in it. Well, my father was abusive to me growing up and I didn't term that abuse. I didn't know that that was abuse and in some ways the best thing he did was kick me out of the house when I was 16. Because I suddenly was able to see that what was going on in my house was not normal. When I was first introduced to domestic violence I had been a journalist traveling the world. I did all kinds of human rights abuse stories gang rapes and you know child marriages and domestic violence sat at the core of all of those stories. But I was like but that's not my story. My story is about gang rape. I mean I I had blinders. I with all the privilege. I mean okay getting kicked out wasn't a privilege but later in my life I had you know education. I was able to access education and I make a living and all that stuff. And I thought oh but I but I'm not doing a story on domestic violence and doing a story. story on, you know, I think the word domestic violence also just marginalizes the experience that so many women have because it makes it feel like he slapped her, they were arguing, there was an argument that went on and you know, it does not in any way articulate the terrorism that you spoke of, nor the amount of devastation and fear that a woman lives in. There is a softening, whenever you add the word domestic onto anything, it's coded as feminine, it's coded as female. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day, that means a lot to me. So here's the thing, I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast, it's just a quick tap of the subscribe button. And that way you won't miss an episode in your queue, you don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new, there are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening. Thank you for listening to the Oprah podcast when we come back, award-winning journalist Rachel Louise Steiner shares the harrowing story of a 23 year old woman killed by her own husband. Welcome back to the Oprah podcast, I'm talking with best-selling author Rachel Louise Steiner, her book No Visible Roses opened up a new conversation around domestic violence and the rising abuse that happens behind closed doors. Let's get back to it. You know, there's a story in my book of a woman named Michelle Monson Mosher, start with her. Yeah, I start with her. I actually kind of dedicate the first third of the book to her. She is killed at age 23 by her husband Rocky. Not only she kills, she's killed and the two children and their two children are killed. And one of the things he did in the months before he killed her was they lived in Billings, Montana. He went to the outskirts of Billings and he got a rattlesnake, poisonous rattlesnake, and he kept it in a hexagonal cage in their living room and he would say to her, "If you do anything to piss me off, I'm going to put this snake in our bag in your bed or in the shower with you." Yeah. It's a double bruises necessary, right? You wrote that so profoundly that I just thought, "Wow, you're living with a rattlesnake in your house. You're willing to live with a rattlesnake in your house." But then you brought up a point because we all have asked this question over the years. Why do you stay? Why do you stay? Yeah. Yeah. I've even learned so much since I wrote that book. I keep learning and keep learning and I think I would even expand that now to say that needs to be two questions. Why is he violent and not why didn't she leave, but what did she do? And in the case of Michelle, so we, the research will say it takes on her to try to get herself out. Yes. Because every woman knows that you can't make a sudden move, that it's a process to try to get yourself out. But with this vision of like, leaving is like, you know, a suitcase packed to do her, go to Vegas. Right or whatever. But like, you know, you think about their kids might be in sports. They might be taking care of elderly parents. They might have pets, which you can't bring to a shelter. Maybe you don't want to leave your family's China at home. So there's all these barriers. You can't just enroll your kids in another school district without the father signing or the other partner signing on. But in Michelle's case, and I think her case is fairly typical, there were all kinds of things that she did throughout the years to prepare for her freedom, safety measures that she took. So for example, Rocky didn't allow her to work, but he did allow her to take classes. And the way she framed it was, if I take nursing classes, one of their children had pretty significant health problems. If I take nursing classes, I won't need to bring her to the emergency room as much. And I'll be home more, I'll be under your thumb more, right? She was really smart about it. In her case, she knew she wanted to get a nursing degree so that she could afford to raise those kids. That's just one of the things she did. She also went to her father who owned the house they were renting and had her name put on the deed to the house so that she could get Rocky out. Our systems, judges, police, whatever, we don't ask the question, what did you do to prepare for your safety? What safety planning did you do? We ask, why didn't you leave? And just imagine any other crime where we're like, the impetus to change is on the first, the victim of that crime, right? But what I want women to do is to see the signs early. I mean, one of the things that I said for years and years and years on the show, and I think it did have an impact because I know a lot of people have since told me that they left when they realized that love doesn't hurt, love doesn't hurt, and you allude to this on literally in the preface. I think this is so profound. You say, we live in a culture in which we are told our children must have a father. That a relationship is the ultimate goal. That family is the bedrock of society. That it's better to stay and work out one's issues in private than to leave and raise kids as a single mother. Michelle, as you were just speaking up, Michelle Monson, more sure, said this over and over when she insisted to her mother that she didn't want to raise her children in a broken home, a broken home, as if a home with one adult abusing another adult isn't broken. As if there are degrees of brokenness, the messages are insidious and they are consistent. I think that's so profound that women don't realize that it's already broken, it's already broken. It's already broken. She's hitting you in front of your children, it's already broken. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. It's still being raised to think this way and how do we change that narrative? Yeah, I think they are still being raised. I was raised to believe that the world was a dangerous place that the world was out to get me and it wasn't until I was in the world that I realized no, my house was where the most dangerous was as it is for a lot of women. Yeah. Part of the issue is that we don't live in a world where you can walk out the door and be free of somebody who abuses you. We have technological ease right now for stalking. There's all kinds of ways you can stalk somebody. We have social media which if you're on social media as most people are and we have a court system that really wants to make sure both parents are in a child's life because they believe that it's going to be better for the child and probably most of the time it is but not when there is violence. So research reveals that 60% of domestic violence systems are strangled which dramatically increases the chance of violence in the home. Why is strangulation often the last step before homicide? That's a really, it's such an important question. I didn't fully understand that strangulation was a different marker of dangerousness. It's different than a kick or a punch. It is often the penultimate act before homicide. It carries two different potential injuries. One is literally cutting off the airway. So oxygen to the brain. And then I read in No Visible Bruises that it also you're more likely to have a stroke. Yes. Yeah. It often is brain damage or blood clot. Yeah. And of course we don't have emergency rooms that regularly scan victims of domestic violence for head trauma in the way that we do, you know, car accident victims or kids with sports. And you know, it is a particular, it is a particularly gendered act because women just don't have the hand strength for strangulation. So 60% of the cases of people have been strangled. Yeah. Yeah. You spent years conducting interviews and sitting in on group sessions with, with abusers. And what surprised you about the men you encountered, the men who were the abusers? The men who were abusers were charming and funny. You know, I've mentioned my father. My father was also the guy that took my daughter to the supermodel to walk around. It was like the grandpa granddaughter special thing. He was the guy who knew every woman's name who can't hand it out free samples at the grocery store and their kids names and their life stories. He was wonderful and charming and funny and also abusive. But I didn't, even I didn't recognize that I had grown up with that until, and I'm ashamed to say, it wasn't this book that I realized that it was the book that came after this. And those guys in, I've sat in on prisons, I've sat in on abuser intervention groups. It really shook me to think. - Oh, you're funny guys, you're smart guys. - I know. - You're educated guys. - I know, I know, I know. I remember having an aha moment years ago when I was talking to this man named Zeke. And I remember walking into the room with all these guys who were in this program, but supposedly for rehabbing. And they all look so like normal guys. - Yeah, yeah. - Okay, so let's take a look at Zeke. He talks about why he was physically abusive. - Take a look. - What does it take to change this kind of behavior? What does it take? - Oh, that's an easy question. That's probably the easiest question so far. Learning to tolerate and learning to manage emotions that don't feel good. And you're not always gonna get the reinforcement that you think you need because you're dealing with an outside person who has the right not to play the game with you. Even if it's beneficial for both people, they don't have to go along with you. They don't even have to see this as a problem. - Okay. Let me tell you how profound it is, I think. 'Cause that is the same thing I do to keep myself from overeating. That is the same thing you do when you wanna stop yourself from taking the next drink and getting alcohol. - Exactly. - It is the same thing you do if you're addicted to any kind of behavior that is destructive to you. You have to allow yourself to feel the pain and allow yourself to deal with the emotion that you automatically would repress or overlook or deny yourself. What you just did was you put it in a context so that everybody can see that what you used to do with your anger, lashing out is the same thing that everybody does. - Exactly. - That's how brilliant that is because everybody does it. But when somebody does it in a form that you don't do or we don't do, we see that as being those people who do that. - Yeah. - It's so interesting. He had said to me either before that or after that every time he hit his spouse, he would tell himself this will never happen again. It will never happen again. I won't do it again. This is the last time, it's the last time. And feel terrible afterwards. And I thought that's what every attic feels. And so I was wondering in your interviews and conversations with men who have abused, does it feel like an addiction for them? Does it feel like something they can't control? - It's complicated. I do compare to addiction sometimes, but it's an imperfect comparison because addiction has so much neuroscience behind it. And violence, I think, is sociocultural. But I was able to, I did a story for the New York Times a couple of years ago on this violence hotline in the UK. We don't have anything like it in the US nationally, but they have a national violence hotline, not domestic violence hotline. So it's four people who are using violence and want to stop. So the police will give out this number when they go on calls or child protective services. And they let me listen in for about two or three months to these phone calls and they're all anonymous. So it's 85% men who call and they don't give their name and because they're not, because they're anonymous, they don't have to perform. And what was amazing to me to listen to them was how many were calling up first of all sobbing? How often do you hear men cry? Not very often. And they were saying, I don't want to be like this. I don't want to, I don't want to be this person. But they had no sort of training on exactly what Zeke said on how to manage their pain. - Their rage. - Absolutely. - Their rage. - Yeah, yeah. And I think the more interesting programs that I've set in on for people who use violence are ones in which they're able to connect not just the emotional, like a emotional constellation that's happening, but the ones where they can actually notice their physical body, what they look like, how intimidating they look, their voices. Those are ones that really, where you really see aha moments for these guys. - I think, and also in no visible bruises, one of the things you talk about is when you ask law enforcement, do you think that men can be rehabilitated from violence and change? They say no. And women who abuse, they hope so. But the men themselves say yes. And I think yes is the answer, but it takes a lot of work. And I think for any woman who's living with an abuse of husband, unless that person, or an abusive spouse, or partner, or brother, or whomever, if that person isn't willing to seek help for it, they're not gonna resolve it on their own. - I do not think you can resolve it on your own. - No, that's absolutely the key. It's not something can be resolved. - That's pretty-- - That you just decide one day, I'm not gonna do it anymore. - Absolutely, that's the, I think that's where the addiction parallels. - It's learned behavior, it's learned behavior, and that's how you react, that's how you react. - And they have to see the benefit in their own lives. - Of change. - They have to say, oh, my life is better when my children aren't scared of me. My life is better when my wife is happy and not cowering, for example. - Yeah. - And the people who are able to see that are the people who are actually able to see. - Why isn't that hard to see? 'Cause aren't most of them narcissists? (laughing) - Yes. (laughing) - And so they love the power and the control, and I'm the one, if you're not gonna be with me, you're not gonna be with anybody. - Right. - After a quick break, we catch up with a woman I met on the Oprah show, whose story is seared in my memory. Susan, endured 17 years of physical and emotional abuse. Her husband even forced her then 13-year-old son to record the abuse on camera. We'll be right back. - Hey, it's Christy from Lou 11. I'm here at the office, and we just dropped some really fun new summer colors in the flow-y styles. If you're like me, you've loved the flow-y tank and broth for years, and as of this year, it also comes in a dress and a crop tank. These are made in our buttery soft newly fabric, and my favorite part is the built-in bra. It makes it super easy to wear for yoga or honestly as an everyday basic. You can find flow-y styles in store or online at lululemon.com. - Hi, and welcome back to a difficult, but important conversation about domestic violence, a silent epidemic impacting more women than you may have realized. - Well, one of the stories, I did 4,561 shows. I've interviewed over 35,000 people one-on-one, and so a lot of things get buried in my memory, but there is one woman's story that nearly 20 years ago, I had a conversation with this woman, Susan, who was a mother of three who had endured 17 years of physical and emotional abuse by her husband. Her story was especially shocking. It shocked our whole audience because her then husband, Rachel, forced her 13-year-old son to videotape the violence. So there we see her son on camera filming it, and I want to give warning that this footage is a physical and verbal abuse and may be difficult to watch. - This is Susan on her wedding day. 17 years ago, the arms of the man she believed was the love of her life, carried her across the threshold. Now I want you to take a look at Susan four years ago on June 23rd, 2003. One day after the video that you're about to see was taped. Keep in mind that the images in today's show are not suitable for young children. They're not suitable for anyone. - You play those stupid games for me, I knock your teeth out of your face. You hear me? - It's the nightmare we hear happens behind closed doors, but rarely, if ever see. - Did you play this (bleep) game with me? - I knock your teeth out of that wall. - In a rage, Susan steals husband emotionally and verbally attacks her in front of their children. - Don't stroke it in time like you don't want to see yourself get beaten in front of the kids, but you add like a (bleep) in front of the kids. - Her husband even commands their 13-year-old son to shoot the abuse on home video. - Zoom in on that half. - The video tape records 51 minutes of fear for more than 40 of those minutes, Susan stands in the same spot, desperately trying to avoid another beating. - And just you standing there talking stupid like that pisses me off, 'cause you should be on your knees apologizing, just stupid (bleep) - Susan says, simply asking her husband if he'd like a sandwich, set him on. - Why don't you just literally come up here and (bleep) with my dick? - With her oldest son, 13, on the other side of the lens, and her eight-year-old son also in the room, Susan's husband calls her stupid 23 times, heifer, 28 times, among other dehumanizing names. (bleep) (bleep) - That's what you are talking about. (bleep) - I don't need to eat stupid, I don't need to act stupid. I don't want to act stupid, I don't need to hold it. I'm sorry, I don't know what to do. (dramatic music) - The abuse then turns from words and threats to this and an explosion of violence. - You shouldn't even be the (beep) all these years, or causing the (beep) like we've been doing all these years. You've still been doing that. - For 10 horrifying minutes, Susan indoors a merciless beating, repeatedly punched, kicked, and slapped. - Look at the way you look. Look at the way you look. You can say some dumb things to me. You know you have a nerve about your stupid (beep) you have a stupid (beep) nerve about your stupid (beep) but you don't learn how to beat your (beep) - No, no, no, you get back, I wanna be and I try it again. - Well after we aired Susan's story on the Oprah Show, operators from the National Domestic Violence Hotline reported that they received three times the number of phone calls than normal and they had to, you know, higher extra people. Susan now joins us via Zoom. Hi, Susan. - Hi. - Hi, how are you? - It is so good to see you again. Thank you for talking with us. - As I said, I've done thousands of shows and thousands of interviews, but your story and the story of your voice, you know, always remains with me. And anytime I talk about this subject of domestic violence or as Rachel has said, the word is really terrorism. You think that's a better word? Terrorism. - Absolutely. That's the word. I use that word when I speak to, you know, across the country, absolutely. - So how are you doing? How are you doing and how are your children doing? - We're doing great. We're doing great. - We're doing great. - Really? - Yes, absolutely. I have a great life. I, you know, still do things to make sure that I'm okay and we're really well. - And the boys are well? - Yes, yes, very well. - Yeah, 'cause I always worried about your son who was filming that, how that would affect his life, affect his view of himself. - Statistically, my children should be either in prison or dead or addicted to something. None of that at all. - Yeah. - They're all very well. They some have families and they are great. - So in 2004, your ex-husband was sentenced to 36 years in prison, the longest sentence ever at the time imposed for non-lethal domestic violence in New York State at that time and understand that he was released in 2021 after serving 17 years of that sentence. - Correct. - How has his release impacted you and your family? - What that does is it sets you back for a moment but life goes on. You can't fall back into, you know, a person that allows him to still control what happens in my life and, you know, covering, being fearful and worried, those kinds of things allow him to still have control so he can't have that with me. So you do the things that you need to do to make sure that you protect yourself, that you stay safe and you live your life. - And you live your life and you now go around speaking and talking to other women about this. - I speak to anyone, I do a lot of law enforcement training, I do colleges, I do the military community responders. - Yes. - And what do you think when you see yourself, I'm sure you're not going around looking at that tape but you certainly have a memory of yourself in that position, in that Dasal subservient position. What do you think of yourself and what do you want to say to that woman in that tape? - It's difficult for me to look back and see myself in that place because before I was her, I was a, you know, I didn't have a self-esteem issue, I was okay. And then to see myself like that, I mean, I was really at that point, nothing about me was left. - Yeah. - You become part of their world. Their world is the only world. And so everything about me, you know, my opinions were all the same as his opinions. Always that I could never be my own individual self because whenever I was, that was deemed wrong. Can you share with us because Rachel has talked about in no visible bruises and shared a bit here about how it starts with the controlling, with the don't want to, I don't want you to drive, I don't want you to work, I know you were working and one of the reasons why he was convicted is because your coworker saw you, you know, coming in bruised and it was your coworker who kept a record of what had happened that actually allowed him to be put away. So tell us how did it start. Do you remember the first time? - It eases, the control eases in because when I was in court in the trial, that was the first time I had seen the video since that night that the video was recorded. - What was filmed. - And I, you know, I sat there and by then I had gotten some good information. And so I looked at myself and I was, you know, I would say Susan, how did you get there? I just couldn't, it was very difficult. And I thought about it for a long time and what I realized is that that didn't happen to me overnight, that happened to me over time. It starts out with very little things. It starts out in the guise of love. You know, sometimes there are little things that they'll say they're doing this to protect you. They're doing this to make sure you're okay. Doing it because I love you. I want you to be good. And what it does though, is it allows the control to creep in. As you said over earlier, you think, oh my God, he's, you know, he loves me so much, you know, he just wants me to be okay. And that's how it begins. - Every time it happened, you think, maybe it won't happen again, or did you reach a point where you realize it's always going to happen again? - No, I thought that if I could fix me because he was saying that I was the problem. - Yeah. - I was the one that was doing stupid things. I was the one that couldn't get it right. And so my thought process was, if I fix me, everything will go back to be the way that it used to be because in all these relationships, all of us have good memories from the beginning when they are Prince Charming. So we think if we can fix ourselves, then everything will go back to be that. And what happens is, you know, they tell you what you're doing wrong and as soon as you do it the way they want it, they move the goalpost. Then they, well, it's not right this time, you know, because of something else. So you're never going to be able to get it right, but I didn't know that then, no. - Wow. Well, you know, I remember talking to you and also talking to your son, Dazman, who was just eight years old when that videotape was made. Dazman joins us. It's nice to see you again here too. Hey, look at you grown, man. Wow. - Then Bob is talking to you, right? - Wow. - Are you big? - Are you big? - I've been all right. - You know what I'm saying? - Oh my God. - Oh my God. - What a shot. - Oh my gosh. We got to put your little boy face up there compared to now. Thanks for being here. What are your memories of that time? Was that a tough time for you? - Like I blocked out a lot of stuff. So there's not like, there's some good times, of course, that I remember, but like all the family meetings, all the just barrage of constant stuff in my mom. It's like even, it's been a while since I seen the video. And so like, even looking at the video now, I'm like, I used to get so mad when I see the video and feel guilt and shame and like so many different emotions. Now look at him and I'm like, yo, you, my father looks so stupid in that video. He looks so stupid saying all that. Which hurts 'cause that's my father. And I'm like, why? And like if all the trauma I know he had in his childhood and all that, it's still like, man, the ways that your mind doesn't make sense. And I can see it in his expression and in his eyes. I'm like, the ways that you're earned to be a man don't make sense, but you can't see that at all. So it's like, it's, this is the first time that I've actually seen the video and seen it in that filter. It used to be just a whole bunch of my personal emotions knowing that I was there. Couldn't do anything. Did you feel helpless as a little boy for your mom? Did you feel helpless? - Sure, like I was sitting up there under a blanket, singing to myself and I shut down as many of my senses when a lot of stuff was happening as I could. And so even then that's why I don't really have amazing memories but I do remember looking around my environment and feeling incredibly let down by it. That was a feeling that I didn't know how to articulate my mind at the time at all. I didn't learn that until recently. But that feeling persisted. That little subset of anger in my body. The last time we spoke you told me you couldn't forgive your father for what he'd done until you'd spoken with him. Are you still in that space? Do you even want or forgive? It's one of those things where there's some things that he did that are your nameable. I just accept that. Like I said, like I understand that he had a lot to happen in his childhood. He experienced a lot. So from a compassionate standpoint for the boy and him and the circumstances he was raised in, it hurts me to know that he went through a lot of stuff and a lot of stuff that I never know. But for what he did to my mother and my siblings and me, there's some things that I could forgive and then there's some things that I never could. So how do you think? How do you think? It has what you witnessed in your home, the terror and the fear. I mean, you just described, you know, your eight-year-old self hiding under the blanket and, you know, blocking so many things out. How did that shape who you are today? All of that in my home, I didn't realize this until like this week, that created a huge momentum of fear building up in me in my life. I didn't even realize like, for the last, like maybe six, seven years, maybe longer, it is very normal for me to sleep for like four and a half hours to five hours a night. And like I go to the gym, so like I have reasons to be tired when I lay my head down and I like, I mean, he's lost it a lot of the time. And I've gotten very used to operating on very little sleep many days. And I realized that that is so there's so much fear that I have in my body. And so that my childhood set me up to accumulate a lot of fear throughout life. Wow. Yeah. And I didn't realize how much it was. It's like being in the ocean. You're in the ocean, but you don't realize you're in it until you come out the water. Are you proud of your mom and how far your mom has come from those those moments? Yes, yes, absolutely. Yeah, I can look in the video and see see her terror. Yeah, like someone who someone who just had the best of them their value made she just made the feel so worthless. I was such a beautiful person she was. Yeah, this sucks. It sucks to see. It sucks to see, but it's great to see you. It is great to see you. Yeah. And I wish you nothing but goodness. Goodness and mercy may it follow you all the days of your life. Goodness and mercy. Susan, what message do you want abuse victims to take away from your story? That you can come out on the other side. It's wonderful to see you and your beautiful son. Absolutely. They're there. You can have a life after abuse. You can have a good life after abuse. And there are so many resources. So many law, you know, there are laws that are changing. Strangulation is one of them. You were talking about strangulation earlier and that was a misdemeanor when when I went through this and now many states have made it a felony. Well, I wish. As I said to Dazman, I I continue to think about you and I wish you both just goodness and mercy and thank you so much for sharing. And you know, and I'm sure you've heard this yourself because anytime I've ever brought up your story, people were so moved by your story so many women found the courage to get up and leave and make a plan for themselves begin to make a plan for themselves and eventually eventually leave because of hearing your story. And because of that interview I did with young eight-year-old cutie pie Dazman at the time. And your willingness to liberate yourself allowed a lot of other women to get free for themselves. Well, I appreciate that that's the goal. That's the goal of sharing the story. Yeah. Is next family does not have to go through this. The next the children don't have to go through the same things that my children have gone through. Yeah. So thank you for letting us come on. I think you know what I think is so important where Dazman just said because as I was reading from Rachel's book earlier, so many women think they have to stay in the relationship because they don't want the broken home. And I think that is that. Dazman describing his eight-year-old self underneath the covers and the fear that he still lives with today as as as a grown man is really important for mothers in particular to know you're not saving your children. You're not saving your sons by allowing them to be in an environment where they witness all this abuse. So thank you both. Thank you. Thank you for joining me. Thanks. Thank you. We appreciate you. Next, I talk to the family of the murder victims recently in the headlines a couple fatally shot in their Ohio home by the woman's ex-husband will be right back speaking to their family. Next. Thanks for joining me on the Oprah podcast. I'm talking with author and journalist Rachel Louise Snyder about why domestic violence is on the rise. If you know someone who may benefit from listening to this conversation, please share the link to this episode. It may just save their life. This past December, Spencer and Monique Tepi were fatally shot in their Columbus, Ohio home in the middle of the night while their two young children slept nearby. You all might have seen that story or heard about that story. 11 days later, authorities arrested Dr. Michael McGee Monique's ex-husband. He's currently charged with murder and has played not guilty. The casemate national headlines. Spencer's sister Maddie and her husband Rob join us now from Ohio Maddie and Rob. We are also sorry really for your family's loss, but hopefully this story helps bring light to somebody else's story who's listening, been listening to us. Rachel has written a book about it and has been through many, many, many, many, many, many cases very much like yours. Maddie, tell us a little about your brother and his wife. Yeah, so Spencer was. He was such a good big brother. He was like equal parts goofball athlete and kind of a nerd, his little bit type A. And he was just like so disciplined and fearless and like you just you could not embarrass him. So oftentimes it made him the funniest person in the room and like the most responsible person as well, which just a unique combination to have. And then Monique was just so such a warm person and had truly the biggest most inviting smile. And I only met her post Michael. You all knew about him. You knew of an ex-husband. We never knew. Did you know that the husband was an abuser? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And Rob, I understand as soon as you heard what happened, you knew who was responsible. What did she say about her ex-husband Monique? What did she say? Yeah, knowing Monique for eight years, she was not shy about talking about her ex-husband. And that's what she would say. My ex-husband, she would never say his name. So we didn't even know his, I don't even find out his name until that night. But you know, she would, she would tell us that he, he would threaten her. He would threaten to kill her. He was emotionally abusive to her. And, you know, early on when we found out that when their bodies were found and that this wasn't just some random break-in, this was, you know, a targeted attack. It was really the most likely answers, usually the correct one. And those other, I mean, nobody could say a bad thing about those, those two. So he's the only person that could come to mind. So for right there, I kind of, I feel like we all kind of knew in our hearts that, you know, that's, that's probably who did this. But it also sounds so crazy because it had been eight years. Yeah. And which is interesting because Rachel says in no visible bruises that, that there is no end date, right? There is, there is no end date, unlike war, natural disaster, any kind of criminal act. There's no end date for domestic violence. And that's, I think, what so many of our systems don't understand. This is what I don't understand. And maybe you all don't either. I don't understand. The person is beating you up. The person is, you know, obviously enraged. And then has this need to believe that you are mine, right? Because hadn't he said to her, Rob? Or maybe she told you this, I've read this that you will never be married to anybody else with me. You are mine. It was something kind of like that and you know if you if you leave me I'll find the house next door to you and I'll move in right next to the north right next door to you You're always gonna be my wife So yeah, that's how he felt. What is that? What have you found in your research that you know, I That I sent his chilled on my spine because I've heard that in other stories Then a man saying I in the case I'm thinking of I'm gonna buy the house across the street from you and he tried to He tried to and I think it's one of the most important things I tell when I do speaking I tell domestic violence agencies make sure when you are doing your trainings that you are inviting The local clergy that you are inviting local HR Departments that you are inviting the social workers from high school like we have got to bring in other systems and other people Yeah, I just I feel so awful and was so recent in your case and I mean I read about it in the newspaper as well And he had broken into the house weeks before right? We don't know He was in the what the the word they use is curtailage Which I guess could mean it yeah around we we suspect kind of the backyard, but we don't we don't know Eddie and Rob how are you doing we're hanging in there? Yeah, we we just took a little bit of time off You know, we went to California with some family and we had some some unspensered money ex-friends join us Kind of just to get away from it, but you know, you you can't run from your feelings necessarily It was good to be around these people and talk about things But you know, it's it's it's just lingering and in the pressure of it just feels so large Did she live in fear of him? Did she ever think something like this could happen? I mean, I think ultimately yes, she did but we never thought that it was a present threat. Yeah, just thought this is what happened to her and that's why You know she would respond to things the way that she did Yeah, and I think on top of the on top of that she was obviously working very hard on mental health And then you add Spencer into the mix who's just the most Optimistic positive person that we know everything Scenes all right, you know she would bring it up here and there, but like it just felt like it, you know It was getting better and it was it was and that they were going on with their lives Yeah, but they were going and he never indicated to you your brother that it was a problem Right now the children outside of this car having anxiety about it. Yeah, the children who were in the home at the time of The murders are now I understand just four and one. How are they doing and where are they? You know, I want to respect their privacy, but I can tell you that they're they're safe They're with family and that both, you know, the the TEPI family and and Monique's family are doing everything they can to To come together and make sure that they're getting all the support and love that they need what is a message or the wake-up call You want people to take away from your family's tragedy. What can we learn from you all? well, I thinking about that a lot and You know, people you look on the internet and you just hear all of these comments and a lot of people say Well, why didn't she hide better? You know, why didn't she? You know, why didn't she do more to protect herself? Why? Why why why didn't she do something right? Why didn't she do something they have better security and I just feel like why is it on the woman to protect herself like if If she had under Ohio law if she had gotten a restraining order when this happened it would have expired after five years and then And then there would be unless there was another present threat They would the court would have laughed her out out of there if she tried to have it extended So restraining orders are not bulletproof. Yeah, right. Yeah. That's so true. If you know somebody's Crazy enough to to make this happen. What's a restraining order gonna do, right? Well, we're wishing all the best for you and your family as you go forward. Thank you, Rob and Maddie and we thank you for sharing your family's story. Thank you. Thank you For having us. Thank you. In the afterward you write that you didn't think that you had a personal connection to domestic violence Until you did tell us what happened. Yeah my dear friend Michelle her brother and his wife Had two daughters and their older daughter was my daughter's best friend in elementary school just a weird confluence of circumstances and When the day of their fifth grade graduation the girls fifth grade graduation. I was actually on book tour for this book Jason was his name Jason killed his wife and then killed himself and They were going through a terrible divorce, but I knew them both they were invited to the book release party. I mean, I I still am shocked by The fact that that happened in my friend Michelle she lived in Chicago She got on the first flight she could to come to DC where we all lived and She never went home again. You know, she didn't have any kids and suddenly she has to up and move to Washington DC. It just goes to show you. We don't we don't know who is and who isn't. We have no idea. I have no idea I still am just Shocked mm-hmm by By what happened well, I thank you for writing this book and I thank you for being here for this critical conversation and for Helping us to see that we need to do better Because the stats are getting worse not better and all of the talk about self-empowerment We need to do a better job of looking out for each other and especially for other women in our lives. So thank you so much Susan. Thank you, Dazman, Robin Maddie for allowing us to see the devastating impact that this has had on your families and Rachel's book no visible Bruises what we don't know about domestic violence can kill us is available wherever books are sold normally after conversation like this you put up We put up information about a domestic violence hotline It feels like it's one of those mandatory things people do and say But if you suspect that someone that you know is in this situation, what should you say to them? What do you think you should say to them? I think you the first thing you do is open up a non-judgmental space for them to talk Because it takes a lot of years for someone to be able to extricate themselves from that situation And I think you just having a conversation about it is so important. Yeah, I think we talk about it Let's talk about it to our book clubs or all in book clubs. Yeah, right? Let's talk about it to our walking groups our friend groups Let's just normalize the conversation and say like, you know, this is not okay Yeah, so that a woman in a group like that doesn't feel so ashamed Because I think there's so much shame attached to it Absolutely Because you're trying to create this facade that everything's okay and you're so ashamed Absolutely Creating the space where women can feel comfortable Talking about it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you Rachel. Thank you. Oh, Bruises. Thank you. Thank you Maybe you were shot as I was to learn that globally the most dangerous place for a woman today Is inside her home if you or someone you love is experiencing or is at risk of domestic violence I'm urging you to read Rachel Louise Snyder's eye-opening book no visible bruises It's happening to you. You're gonna see yourself in every page You can buy the book right this second by scanning the QR code on your screen literally Scan the code you'll have the book and seconds Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube or wherever you podcast It's it's just a quick tap of the subscribe button and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something but this time It means you just are notified when there's something new there are many more to come that we're excited about So thank you for watching and listening