Domestic Abuse Survivor

0:04 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to Deepam, a broadcast where we have honest conversations with fascinating people who have lived unique lives and the companion P star YouTube series D. We want to give you a deeper window into the experiences and worlds of our amazing guests. 0:19 So if you enjoyed today's interview, please consider subscribing. There will be a new video every week. My name is Marianna, and today I'm joined by Zoe. Zoe, really nice to have you here. Hi. Can you just give us a quick intro to who you are while you're here and then we can dive into it? 0:37 Speaker 2 Yeah, so for the purpose of this, I'm survivor campaigner around domestic abuse and stalking. So I was actually victim myself back in 2014. I was almost murdered by an ex partner. 0:50 Speaker 1 So we kind of start with from the beginning, we'll start with the childhood, we'll kind of talk about everything and we'll get to like what happened to you and kind of how all of that happened and, and chat about it. And as I said, at any point you want to stop or anything like let us know what was your, what was your childhood? 1:05 Who, who raised you? Kind of where, where did you grow up? What was it? 1:08 Speaker 2 Like I grew up with my father, I lost my mum when I was six years old. She died of cancer and so I was raised by my dad and I ended up with a step family from the age of around 8-9. 1:24 So it was a normal family, you know, with fairly, fairly normal suburbia life if you like. 1:32 Speaker 1 And was there anything in your childhood which or like just not even in your childhood, but like in your early life and things you've experienced the scene, did you see like a lot of kind of, I don't know, men being violent to women or anything like that? Or was that something like that you were kind of not aware of or wasn't something that you witnessed? 1:50 Speaker 2 No, definitely not something that I was aware of. And it's only kind of now with hindsight, when you look back at things over your life that you recognise certain things that were maybe sexist, misogynistic at the time, but you wouldn't necessarily have recognised it at the time. 2:05 You know, I was raised by my father. So I was raised by a man, you know, he didn't treat me any differently. He, he was a good man. You know, there was no abuse in our household. But when I look back at my my childhood growing up and conversations that I had with my step mum, for example, she talks about previous relationship that she had, which was abusive. 2:28 But it wasn't a term that we used back then. We didn't use the term domestic abuse. It was, you know, it just would be classed as a bad relationship. It's not actually a relationship. It's bad. It's the abuser. 2:40 Speaker 1 Yeah, but I guess it's also different time, right? Where like a lot of things which we now consider not being the right things, a lot of things back then were like, well, that's just the way things are. That's just the way men were or women are, or. 2:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, so I mean, I mean, you know, when my mum was alive, very much a traditional household. So my mum stayed at home with me and was a stay at home mum and my dad went to work and very much was the breadwinner. And that's the way things were back then, you know, And it was the norm. 3:05 Speaker 1 Before you met the your abuser, what was life like and what what kind of your younger years like and what what what were you like? 3:14 Speaker 2 So I mean, I left home at quite young, I left home at 17 and became very independent very young and then had various relationships. So I mean, we talk about the abuser, it's just the attacker and the the attack that we're here to talk about today. 3:35 But actually there were other relationships that were problematic. It was only kind of like when I got to that one, that was the turning point. I almost died. So of course it was. But you know, I've been in long term relationships which were fine and ended normally. 3:53 But the relationship that I had previous to the guy who almost killed me, Jason Smith, he that was also a bad relationship. And it's the father of my daughter. So, you know, there has been difficulties, but I don't think if you speak to any woman on the street, we've all got stories to tell, you know, So I'm, I'm not unique. 4:17 Speaker 1 Yeah, absolutely. Like I guess it's just the extent of those stories and, and, and as we say, like when you talk about sexual abuse in particular, there are a lot of women say, most of the women I guess would say that there was at least some instance of some sort of sexual abuse that they've experienced. So yeah, I can imagine that. So when you met Jason, what was he like? 4:34 What was the relationship like when you've met and kind of where, how did you meet? Can you, can you walk me through that? 4:39 Speaker 2 Yeah, so I'd ended the relationship with my daughter's father quite some time before. And I was living with my dad and I was a single professional mother and I was going out and doing, you know, working, having to travel for, for business meetings and things. 4:59 And my dad was very much a support system for me. And I met Smith chatting on Facebook actually. And I used to use Facebook for like marketing purposes. I used to have a, a shop in the town where I lived. 5:15 And so he happened to be on my friends list. I don't know how he got there, probably from me like adding people trying to promote the shop, etcetera. Anyway, we started chatting on Facebook And so it was very, just very easy. And then looking at his profile, he, he was a single dad, I was a single mum. 5:34 He also, we had quite a bit in common because he used to sell cars, I used to sell cars. So we, we kind of had a lot to talk about. So it kind of evolved from there to the point where he'd asked me out for a date and then we went to my local pub. 5:53 And then he at the end of that date, which was great by the way, you know, at the beginning it was like he was really attentive. We were talking, we were, he was very charismatic, you know, confident. And, you know, I just thought, wow, I can't leave this guy single, you know? And then at the end of the day, he dropped me home in a taxi. 6:12 I told him that I worked from home. And then the next day I got a text saying, look outside. And it was him. And I was a little bit taken aback because it was like, literally the first day. It was only the night before. 6:29 And he was like, oh, I was just passing. And I just thought I'd pop by and I kind of was a little bit uncomfortable with it. But then my dad kind of walked out to the garden and I was like, well, you know, get back in, dad. And he was like, oh, it's like the guy that you went on a date with. I said, Jay said, oh, well, he's keen. And it was kind of laughed off, you know, as if it was some sort of flattery. 6:50 But for me, that was, when I look back with hindsight, he was breaking boundaries from day one, you know, even to the point where when we were chatting online on Facebook, there was a, a new function that they'd introduced where you could call somebody and they defaulted it to be switched on. 7:07 And I remember one day my, my laptop was open on the, the kitchen side and it started ringing. I thought, what's going on? And it was him. So, you know, these kind of breaking down my boundaries, seeing what he could get away with very early on that that was already happening at the start. 7:24 Speaker 1 I want to ask you from the hand side, there is something looking back, if there was something, there were early signs, though. I, I'm really aware of the fact that if I ask you that question, it's as if I'm saying, well, you know what, there were signs and you should have looked for them. So I'm really, don't you know what? I really want to be careful about that question. 7:40 And I think anyone who's been through something like this, like it's really easy to go like, well, you know what, there has been signs, but how can we recognise them? You know, like and how can we really? 7:50 Speaker 2 But I think that's the thing, isn't it? You know, you don't at the time, you don't recognise those things because society, people around you, family, you know, my dad brushed off that. Oh, he's keen. Or you know, so when, when our gut feeling tells us something's wrong, we override it because we've been fed these stories, especially as young girls, you know, fairy tales of the Princess coming to save you. 8:11 And you know, it's just a load of rubbish, isn't it really? When you think about how we've changed over the years now, how even just those stories that are fed to young girls now, they're not quite as sexist if you like. So I think we, we, we're changing. We're a long way off. 8:27 But you know, things are changing. 8:30 Speaker 1 What's point in your relationship with with this guy? Kind of how was the relationship developing and what point do you think was the point where it started? You started feeling like, OK, this is getting somewhere where I'm not comfortable with. 8:42 Speaker 2 We started dating and we were dating for a number of weeks and then my dad became really poorly and he ended up he was quite severely. He had a thing called Gillian Barry, which then he ended up in in intensive care on a tracheoctomy. 9:01 He was induced into a coma. So it was all really traumatic and obviously my dad was my support system at home, so he used to often take the children to and from school if I had meetings or whatever. That was really difficult at that point. And then I obviously spoke to Jason about this and we discussed it and he said, look, you know, I can help you. 9:20 Let me help you. Let me let me help with the children. My work's flexible. And you know, even my friends were saying God, it's, you know, it's amazing. It's like he's your saviour. You know, he's actually being able to take the kids and God, what would you have done without him? So very much like feeding into that kind of narrative that he was saving me. 9:39 You know, even then it was it was there was certain kind of there was a feeling, there was a good feeling that actually this is a bit too much. But because of what was going on with my dad and, you know, my children were so young, you know, I was having to deal with working full time, being the, you know, looking after the house, dealing with dad in hospital, dealing with young children. 10:01 So it was a lot. 10:03 Speaker 1 And I guess if someone offers help, you kind of feel like. 10:05 Speaker 2 Of course, and you know, I don't have any family around me. So, you know, that that was absolutely like brilliant. And, you know, he did, he did step up and he was helping and it was brilliant, you know, and but it was months into the relationship when that started to change where I think he, he thought that he'd invested enough in the relationship with me that I would then start to accept certain behaviour because then, you know, the manipulation started quite early on. 10:38 So if I was trying to arrange to go out with the girls, you know, he would be arranging something instead. So we'd book, book, book a hotel and say, yeah, but I've bought, I've bought this for us. Why would you go out with? So it was very, very subtle. And what we've got to remember is he is a master manipulator. 10:56 You know that He's honed his techniques by the time he'd got to me. 11:00 Speaker 1 But he didn't know that. 11:01 Speaker 2 I didn't know that. And you know, and we'll talk about it later, the fact that he was a serial perpetrator is a serial perpetrator. As the relationship progressed, you know, we've been on holiday together. I've met his daughter, he met my children, and then we became very entwined. He didn't actually move in with me officially, but he was pretty much spending a lot of time with mine. 11:23 But he would know where I was, but I wouldn't necessarily know where he was, which at the time it wasn't. I didn't think like that. So I wasn't thinking, oh, I don't know where he is and he knows where I am. It's just now when I look back, you know, you know, I went out on a night out with the girls and I ended up going back to a friend's house and he messaged me saying, why are you at this address? 11:44 And I was like, how do you even know I'm there? You know, so, and, and this is it, these small little things like red flags that they're niggles at the time, they're not something that you would pick up and think, Oh my God, this guy's an abuser. 12:00 You know, it doesn't work like that because when you've been in a relationship, when you're in a relationship, you're investing time and effort and you know, you've integrated them into your life. So it's not a case of, you know, even if somebody does recognise something that's uncomfortable, you can't just, you don't just switch off. 12:17 You know we're human. 12:18 Speaker 1 Yeah. But also you are kind of a little bit to the opinion of the relationship to kind of go. So, OK, so at what point, at what point did you break off the relationship and kind of and and where was the change in him, which was the drastic change that happened? 12:36 Speaker 2 So we're talking like 8-9 months into the relationship and he all of the things that he used to kind of manipulate me and get me control what was going on with with what was going on in my life. 12:52 So in terms of picking up the children, you know, being really helpful, all of that was then starting to shed away. So we were stopping to do those things. The things that were he was able to do and wanted to do at the beginning was then all too difficult, which was then of course creating more problems for me because then it was like, how do I then conduct my life if I can't get somebody to look after the children? 13:13 So I'm a resourceful person, you know, I ended up getting a childminder and sorting things out. But this, you know, all of this, it was always as if you, I was fighting against this kind of manipulative behaviour. But I would not have recognised that back then. It's only when I look back with hindsight I realise what was going on. 13:31 The decision came when he started to, he lost his job and he started to drink in the day. And then it was a case of he was staying in bed all day. Then he was having these really dark days where he wouldn't get out of bed at all, drinking. 13:47 And I was just like, look, you know, I can't have this. I can't have this around the children. I've got work, you know, I'm busy and, you know, I'm still dealing with dad in hospital. And I asked him to leave and go and stay at his parents so we could have some space. But that was the point where I feel like a switch had been flicked because he then started to call me, you know, many, many times a day to the point where I was like, look, Jason, I can't. 14:16 You can't keep ringing me. I'm working. 14:18 Speaker 1 And when we say many like. 14:21 Speaker 2 And I mean, this is at the beginning, so this is gradual. So this is a gradual thing. So at the moment he's still thinking we're in a relationship and we're just having some and I'm trying to let him down gently. So I'm trying to create some distance. But actually the more I try and create distances, the more he's trying to reach in. And so that's, you know, the calls kept on coming. 14:38 Then he was sending text messages. Then it got to the point where I was like, look, do you know what actually, like, I just want to clean break. I just want to cut off because you're, you're not accepting what I'm saying. And some of the bits and pieces that he had at mine, I went and dropped them to his parents and said, look, you know, that's it. 14:58 But at that point, then the number of calls and the texts and the emails and the Whatsapps and the Facebook all increased. You know, it was just consistently all day, every day to the point where I had to call the police, you know, then he was kind of going from, you know, I love you to Zoe, I'm, I'm coming home. 15:19 I'm like, OK, this isn't your home. Then it was like, if you don't let me in, I'm I'm going to come through the door. So then it was threatening me. So, but when I called the police, the police were saying, well, he hasn't really done anything yet. I'll say so, you know, give us a call when he's done something and you're just completely disregarded and, and, and met with this wall of what you're, what you're reporting is like minimised in some way, you know, like it's not important and you're being a nuisance yourself. 15:45 Speaker 1 What we're basically they're saying and is that actually a normal kind of reaction from police like going like, OK, well call us when he's actually done something, which is which sounds like a bit horrifying to be honest. 15:56 Speaker 2 I hear that a lot because I think there's still a real misunderstanding of, you know, stalking, harassment behaviours. And the fact is that they also had information that I didn't have. So he was a serial perpetrator, is a serial perpetrator they have. 16:13 Speaker 1 Sorry, sorry. I want sorry to interrupt you. When you say he is a serial perpetrator. That means that he's now, at the moment, he's out in the wild, He's we don't know what he's doing. 16:22 Speaker 2 So he hasn't changed, you know, So the reason I really keep correcting myself is because he's still alive, right? So he is a serial perpetrator because his offending to my knowledge is never stopped. And from what I know now, he's offending dates back to his childhood age. 16:41 So he's gone on and offended from his teenage years with impunity. So that's what happens when this kind of behaviour is left and checked. If you don't, if, if it's not dealt with and there's no consequence, then what's stopping them in the escalation? 16:58 You know, and this is the thing the police aren't picking up on, They're not picking up on the pattern, they're not picking up on the escalation. But in my case, they didn't even look at his history, and he'd been to prison before for this kind of behaviour. Now if they'd have looked at that, I'm pretty sure their response to me would have been slightly different. 17:16 Well, it should have been. 17:18 Speaker 1 And at what point did you learn about his previous criminal history? 17:21 Speaker 2 Not until I had been almost murdered. Oh. 17:24 Speaker 1 My God. 17:25 Speaker 2 I didn't know this at all. I was completely in this relationship with no information. And you don't know this. And you know, we have a thing called Claire's Law, which of course, yes, you can go to a police station if you've started a new relationship and you can ask them to do a background check. 17:43 I do know that that's very rarely granted. I also know that that isn't something that I would have done because that the onus is then on the potential victim to recognise that they might be in danger and then go and do a Claire's Law. It would be, it would possibly be something I do now because I'm a survivor of domestic abuse, but somebody who's never had any domestic abuse in their life, what would, you know, it's very unlikely that they would go and do that. 18:12 And I just think that again, when the government introduced these things, they don't think about actually, are you putting the onus on the victim as opposed to putting controls around perpetrators for them to stop offending? Let's stop focusing on the the victim behaviour. 18:28 Let's focus on the perpetrator behaviour because that's where the problem is. The problem isn't with the victims. They don't choose to be a victim. The problems with the perpetrator. 18:36 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's not like everyone who's in the new relationship should go and check their new boyfriend in the in the police. And So what was the moment that, I mean, essentially changed your life? Like where did it escalate with him? 18:49 Speaker 2 So the calls and everything continues. And then I called the police. You know, they had to come out on a number of occasions. One time they came out, 2 male police officers walked into my kitchen, looked at my kitchen, looked at each other, said oh, started making jokes. 19:04 Oh, this is a nice kitchen. Don't show my wife this kitchen. Oh, you know, you need to get yourself a nice boyfriend. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Really unprofessional and just outrageous really, because nobody calls 999 as a calm thing. You know if you're calling 999 you're distressed so the last thing you need is 2 police officers turning up thinking this is some kind of joke. 19:27 At that point I was then playing on the voicemails that he was leaving and he was pretending to kill himself. So in one he was saying baby I love you, I'm sorry let me I'm going to come home. Others he was saying if you don't open the door, I'm coming through the door. Then others were saying, you know, I'm going, I'm going, and he was pretending to kill himself. 19:46 That's a prerequisite to homicide. That is a huge red flag. That's something that they should have picked up on the police. They also didn't collect that evidence. When you make that 999 call and you're presented with police officers, that first response is so important because that response then led to me not ringing the police again until he ended up smashing in my door. 20:12 So. One Saturday afternoon I came home, I had my 4 year old daughter with me at the time and walked into my kitchen and my I've got big windows at the back of the kitchen and he was standing in my garden. 20:28 Well, of course I was shocked and like horrified because my garden's closed. So there's no, you know, he would have had to break the gate to get through. He'd obviously broken the gate to get into the garden. He'd been waiting for me. I screamed and then I saw his face turn to anger, run round to the side of the house and then I could hear him kick in the door. 20:45 At this point I took my daughter up the stairs and unbelievably, there was like a hailstorm at the time. So I was trying to distract her and saying, oh, look out the window. All the while I was on 9/9 9:00 calling the police again saying he's here. He's now smashing the door in, please send somebody. 21:04 Now he's coming through the door. And I was like, he's in, he's in the I could hear him coming up the stairs. And then he come into the room that I was in. And I just looked at him and looked at Sophia and was like, you know, what are you doing? And he fell to his knees crying, saying, why won't you speak to me? 21:21 And I was like, you need to run. The police are coming. And I think in his deluded mind, he thought that somehow I was helping him. He was like, I need to go. And I was like, yeah, they're coming. So he ran off and I called the police. And I, when the police, sorry, when the police arrived a couple of minutes later, I said, oh, you know, that's where he's gone, pointed up the road. 21:41 And they went and picked him up. And then one of the police officers came back and said or you don't need to press charges. You know, you can just like it's up to you. I was like, well, I worked in criminal screening at the time. So I was like, well, if you don't charge him, it's not going to go on his record. 22:00 Also, he smashed through my entire UPVC side door. I need to claim on my insurance if he's not charged then. So I've got to pay for that. No, you know, and all the while, my response to this wasn't a fear. You know, I'm not a fearful person. 22:16 We talk about fight, flight, freeze. My, my natural reaction to things is fight. So I was furious. I was more angry about what was going on. 22:25 Speaker 1 But you also heard he broke in. You had a four year old child with you. Like you are protecting the child as well. Like it's, it's like I can, I can totally understand. 22:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think, and that's the thing, I think there's no such thing as a perfect victim. And the risks are still there whether I'm angry or whether I'm fearful. But I think when you're dealing with the police and you're coming across as angry, they just think, well, there's not a problem here because she doesn't seem like she's scared. And and they did a dash risk assessment on me. 22:52 And one of the questions on the dash risk assessment is, is the victim fearful? And the answer was no, but that doesn't mean there isn't any risk. And so, you know, when they arrested him, they charged him with criminal damage. Then they said, well, then they just bailed him. 23:08 So of course, he was just allowed to leave the police station and he just continued. So what? So what, what do I do? You know, like I can't call the police. They're not doing anything. So it was at that point that I thought I'm going to have to go and meet him and talk sensing to him and try and reason with his better side. 23:28 I don't know, you know, my hands were tied at this point. So I took a call from him. I said, you know, let's meet, let's go and meet in a local bar. And I knew that it'd be busy. I know people in there. And then he was saying, look, I've, you know, I'm going to sort myself out. 23:45 I know what, you know, I've been terrible lately. I'm really sorry. And Oh my God, I can't believe what I've done to my door. I'll get my dad to fix it. His dad is a builder. I was like, OK, look, you know, let's go and, and chat. So we went for dinner and people kept coming over to the table because I knew people in that. 24:03 He was like, you know, we're not getting any privacy here. Can we please go back to yours? I just want to show you these emails. I've got this new job that I've got set up lined up. I'd had a glass of wine and he, he was the old Jason. He was the old Jason that I remembered. 24:18 And you don't want them to be this unravelled person. You don't want them to be this broken person who's acting erratically. You can't get your head round it. You want the person that you first met to come back. So we went back to mine and, oh, I was still angry. 24:36 And, you know, we were studying my kitchen, and I was angry with him. And I was saying to him, you know, I'm embarrassed. You've smashed in my door. I've got boards at my door. I mean, like, how do you expect me to even get over this? Like, I'm furious, to be honest with you. I'm not. And we can't just get back together. 24:51 That doesn't work like that. I didn't know then what I know now that I was in an enormous amount of danger. He is a serial perpetrator of domestic abuse. He'd been to prison before for doing something quite similar to a serving police officer. 25:10 You know, she wasn't protected. And here I was telling this guy, not knowing any of his history, that, look, I'm not happy. But anyway, got late. And I said to him, look, you can either sleep on the sofa or let yourself out. 25:26 I'm going to bed. I went to bed. It was then that I remember being woken to him first of all asking me for money. When I said no, I just remember 3rd and at the first, third was on my head. I could feel that he had shoes on. 25:42 And it was just the most strangest experience because I just remember flying from one side of the bed to the other. And I said in the most normal voice, like, what are you doing that for? And then I just remember third, third, third raining down on me and I must have lost consciousness. 25:59 The next thing I remember is coming round, slumped over the side of the bed and looking down at my hands covered in blood. I was in an enormous amount of pain. My head was hugely swollen. 26:14 You've probably seen the injury pictures that are online. You know, I was. I could feel that my head was twice the size. I could see the blood everywhere, looked across in my bedroom, which was white, was completely red, covered in blood. 26:30 He was sitting the other side of the the bed with a meat cleaver chopping at his wrist saying we're going together babe. And it was at that point that I just was like, and I had like an adrenaline rush and I thought he's going to kill me. I've got to get out of here. I remember like I've got a chaise at the end of the bed. 26:48 And there was he had the laptop open. He had there was like an 8 inch knife at the end of the bed. I managed to get down the stairs. My bedroom's in the loft. I managed to get down the two flights of stairs went into the lounge, tried tried to pick up the landline and press 999 thinking if that call connects the police will come. 27:07 That call didn't connect, but the the the phone threw on the sofa. He walked into the the room and was like what you doing? Walked me back upstairs and at this point that's when I was pleading for my life because I was like, Jason, I'm dying, I'm dying, please call me an ambulance. 27:25 Please call me an ambulance. I'm dying. And at this point I think, I don't know whether he thought he'd got, he could get away with it because I'd gained consciousness. So he called 999. 27:40 There was a 13 minute call to the ambulance, to the 999 operators saying that, you know, he said we'd been in a fight with knives, indicating that we both had knives, which is outrageous. 27:57 I mean, I had so many injuries and I've got the transcript of that call. It's so harrowing. I'm in the background saying I'm dying, help me, help me. And the operator saying hold a towel to her neck, it's there blood. 28:12 And just trying to keep him on the call until the police arrive. The next thing I remember is the police at the door and them shouting my name. He must have been coherent enough to go and unlock the door because that's how they got in. 28:29 But yet he was then lying on the kitchen floor with his eyes rolling in his head. I don't know, pretending what then the next thing I remember was being stretchered out and in A&E and I remember hearing him shouting in A&E. 28:48 So they'd not, they'd took me to the same hospital and he was in the next Bay, which is just unbelievable, really. And these are the things that as a victim that you have to deal with. You know, there's no thought to clearly I was the victim. 29:03 You know, he had superficial wounds to his wrists. My injuries. I had a bleed on the brain, cracked eye socket, broken nose. My head was hugely swollen. I had lacerations to my chin, torso, broken right arm, stab wound to the back of my left hand, which bruised the palm of my hands. 29:27 So the knife almost went through. Yeah. And I'd lost about 2 pints of blood, so you know I'm lucky to be alive. 29:38 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm so sorry. What were kind of first initial moments in the hospital when you were like, OK, you know, I made it through like I'm going to live. What was happening? What what was happening with you? What was happening with him? 29:54 What was like police? What, what? What was it all like? 29:57 Speaker 2 So he was remanded immediately. So he was straight away sent to prison and his initial charge was attempted murder. I remember being in the hospital bed and I suppose like, I was disassociated, Like I disassociated myself to the actual violence. 30:24 But it's also disbelief. Like, wow. Like how did I not recognise that he was this violent person? Like, but my disbelief was more so not about inwardly looking. 30:39 It was like, what's wrong with him? You know what? What would make a person do that to another person? Why the knives? Why that level of violence? Like he's 15 stone, 6 foot tall. 30:54 Like look at me 5 foot 2. You know, it's like, no, I don't get it. So disbelief and then, you know, a huge fear for my children because both of the they, they have different fathers. 31:12 There's an age gap between my, my son and my daughter. But my daughter's father was also abusive. And, you know, I'd had police involvement there, but it was no way to the level of violence that that Jason was out. 31:29 But then that that gave him then an opportunity to resurrect his abuse and then blame me for the violence that I received. And that's pretty much how society then treats you as a victim of domestic abuse. 31:46 It's as if what did you do to deserve that? You know, I remember when the first story went in the press and it was like, it was, it was shared about 7000 times. It was like went viral and it was like global old people all over the world, like contacting me. 32:01 Most were great. But then lots of men saying, well, I wonder what she did to deserve that? But isn't it interesting how you need to do something to deserve that level of violence? But what? What does deserve that level of violence? It's crazy. Like what mentality is it that you would ask that even ask that question? 32:20 I didn't look in the mirror for about two weeks because I just didn't want to see my face. It was like awful. And I remember friends visiting me in hospital and I was repeating myself because of the bleed on the brain. I was repeating myself. 32:35 And then I could tell by their face they were doing like side with glances at each other. And I said, I've just said that, haven't I? I've just said that. And they were like they didn't want to say, but I'm like, tell me, am I repeating myself? You know, I can't have this. I can't have this. And then I remember the, the surgeon coming round and saying, you know, we need to take your bandage off your left hand. 32:57 And I just thought I couldn't move my hand because it was bandaged. And then they took the bandage off and I, Oh my God, what's? And they said, you know, you might never use that hand again. I was like, what? No, absolutely no, that is not happening. 33:13 That is not happening. You know, so I mean I have almost not quite fully got 100%, but almost 90% of use back on my hand. But you know, again, mind over manipulators, the name of my book. But I talk about that a lot. Like your mind is so strong and the anger that I felt throughout all of it, the run up afterwards, even in hospital, I channelled that to them come out the other side. 33:45 But it was while I was in hospital that I found out that it was a serial perpetrator. One of my friends came to visit me and said, he's done this before, Zoe, to a police officer. I was like, what? What? So that that anger then was just how on earth could I then call that same police force and then not respond, then say to me, somehow I'm in, you know, he hasn't done anything. 34:11 Call us when he's done something. What do you mean he's done this before? And then I now know once my story went in the papers, 13 of the women came forward at the time, 1313, and that since has increased to 18. So it was not just the police officer. 34:27 There were many in between that. So her case was 10 years prior to mine, but there was many others in between that. And, you know, they were saying to me, they were contacting me on social media saying, Oh my God, I went on a date with this guy. He literally was like, you know, checking where I was going and, you know, talking about all these stalking behaviours. 34:46 Speaker 1 You've met the other women, right? And you've met you work, you work quite closely with one of them. 34:51 Speaker 2 Yeah, very closely with the the police officer. Yeah. And what was that like? Yeah. So I mean, she's still a serving police officer, so there's probably not a lot I can say. But the other women are frightened. 35:08 And of course they are, because who's protecting them, you know? And. And for me, I've in a way he got the protection of and he's, you know, he's now out, he's done 10 years, but he will still do, he's still got four years to do on licence. So I have a level of protection, if you can call it that, where he's not allowed to come into the city that I live. 35:32 He's on tag. But, you know, should those of the women come forward publicly, then who's protecting them because they wouldn't be entitled to the protection. So, you know, it's just frightening really, that you just left. 35:52 Speaker 1 And did he because you said, when you you said that after you go to the hospital and everything and he was immediately put into, he would put, he was put away and it was attempted murder was the first charge, but it was that what he was charged with. 36:06 Speaker 2 So when the CID, there was two female CID officers that came to see me at the hospital and they said we're going to reduce the charge to GBH, Section 18. It still carries the same, it can carry life, but we're going to do that because it's very hard in a domestic to get an attempted murder because actually you've then got to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he was trying to kill you. 36:32 But actually he made the 999 call. So he could then use that and say, but I was just, you know, going to inflict pain or whatever. But so that charge would then mean he wouldn't get convicted, which means he would have walked out of court. So of course the GBH Section 18 makes more sense in terms of a charge because actually that that's grievous bodily harm and he you know, which is serious. 36:55 Speaker 1 And so he was owed after 10 years. 36:57 Speaker 2 He was out after 10 years. He got out last year, back end of last year. 37:02 Speaker 1 How did he feel when he was out? 37:07 Speaker 2 To be honest with you, every single year I've had to fight to keep him behind bars. So that wasn't just a point in time, that was just another thing that I had to deal with. So 2014, I was nearly murdered to that. He wasn't sentenced until 2015. 37:24 So then we had all the court case and everything. Then, then 1617, he appealed. Then 18 or 19, the I had two police officers turn up at my house and say, oh, we're thinking about putting him into open conditions because he's about 1/3 of the way through his sentence. 37:41 I was like, you, you must be crazy. He like, this guy is a serial offender. And he keeps doing this time and time again. And they said, well, and I just thought, well, there's no point in arguing with these police officers. I wrote to the justice minister at the time, Robert Brookland, and said, what on earth's going on here? 37:57 Are you out of your mind? And he wrote back to me and said, which was quite useful actually, because he then said that he was already in open conditions. So actually they had illegally moved him into open conditions without me knowing, putting me and my family at risk because my story went in the press, because there's been a lot of kind of media and public interest in my case. 38:20 I've got a good group of people around me and I've got a legal team that then said, well, hold on a second, this is, you know, we need to get him moved back to close conditions because this is crazy. You can't just do that. So we then created a judicial review where you're, you know, you're going to take them to court for a breach of process. 38:39 They then quickly, they didn't even get to that. They just moved him straight back to close conditions. And then, you know, while behind bars, he wrote to my son's father. He wrote to Laura Richards, who was the founder of Paladin, the National stalking advocacy Service, and is now the crime analyst. 38:59 He wrote to journalists who'd wrote articles about me. And all of this was trying to smear my name. So he was saying I was lying, I was making it up. I foul how I foul stabbed myself and broke all my, you know, broke my bones. 39:15 I don't know, but you know, so it when it got to the point of him being released, it was just another thing that I had to deal with. So of course it was like, yeah, he's going to be released, but I'd on the run up to that. He went in front of parole, the parole board, which I read my own victim impact statement because I've and, and again, they were saying, you know, oh, you don't need to do that. 39:38 We can do that for you. Well, no, I need you to hear the emotion. I need you to understand the level of upset and disarray he's caused in my life. You know, it just everyday I have to deal with something, my children have to deal with something. My son had to have counselling at school. You know, my children were separated because I ended up in a family court situation where I had to fight to get residency back of my daughter and all because of him, all because of this attack. 40:05 And even from behind bars, he was still contacting me. So when he was on remand, he then called me saying. On a Saturday afternoon, I had a known number call my mobile and I answered it and he was like, hey baby, it's me. 40:21 Like wow, wow. 40:23 Speaker 1 But how is it, what's, how is it possible? Like how is it possible in terms of like isn't are you do you have like OK as a as a survivor of domestic abuse or like any crime in that, to be honest, in that sense, like how can you stop you're perpetrated from like just contacting you? 40:42 Why like is are there any law? 40:45 Speaker 2 Yeah, Well, of course. I mean, that's witness intimidation. I mean, he was on remand, waiting to get sentenced, waiting to get charged and sentenced and go to court. So yeah, witness intimidation, which is a very serious crime. And actually when I reported it to the police, they then said, oh, but he's already in the justice system. So what do you expect us to do is witness intimidation? 41:03 Why am I telling you what the law is? You know, isn't this your job like so if you don't, I need to make statements, surely can't you tap my phone? You guys tap phones all the time, don't you? You know, can't you tap my phone? So anyway, I ended up making two statements, but this is what I mean I I was constantly having to fight the system. 41:20 Now look, I know that I'm A and like I said at the beginning, fight flight freeze. I'm fight I'm like challenge everything. Not all victims are like me. Many are broken and having to deal with a system that is just constantly weighted against you as the victim. 41:35 It's outrageous to be honest with you. It's disgusting, it's re traumatising and it has to change. It's not fair you know, how is the perpetrator allowed to just sit pretty in their little Sal getting their three meals a day, you know, getting their free legal advice on how to get away with stuff and yet the victim is just re traumatised over and over and over again. 41:57 You know, not only was I having to deal with CID who were like wanting me to be this broken victim, like come across as a victim because that looks better in court, Then when I'm going to family court fighting for custody of my daughter, I then have to come across as a strong, stoic person who can deal with things. 42:13 It's like, how many hats do you want me to wear? Like, and this is, this is the level of pressure that we're putting on victims. It's not right. 42:23 Speaker 1 Can you talk me through the kind of the campaigning and all of that that you've done? Because I wonder if that was that something that actually helped you process at all and kind of at least try to find some justice and all of that that we've just discussed. 42:41 Wow. 42:41 Speaker 2 Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, I could not understand why these systems didn't talk to each other. I could not understand, you know, I work in technology. That's what I do as a profession, joining not systems. So for me, I just thought, what is going on with our justice system? Where these things aren't linked, no one's talking to each other. 42:58 They're it's completely disjointed. Everybody's working in a silo. They might think they're doing a great job on their own, but they're not holistically, you know, the victim journey doesn't exist. And that, you know, in my day job, we join up, you know, work digitalising the NHS and we join up a patient pathway. 43:16 That kind of thing doesn't exist in the justice system. You know, victims are an afterthought. I mean, we've changed a number of laws and you know, we've had a stalking Protection Orders brought in. We had the stalking laws extended from five years to 10 years. I was involved in the domestic abuse bill where we had laws changed within the family courts. 43:36 But I have to say that all of that work was done over the last, the previous ten years. Not a lot has changed. So those laws exist, but we are specifically in family court. We're in the hands of judges to decide whether or not they want to use those laws. 43:56 We have the domestic abuse bill, but you're at the hands of police officers that have got a bias view of women. You know, and there's, there's even reports that half the police force, male police force are perpetrators because they've been charged with some sort of domestic abuse. 44:13 Yet we're sending these people out to attend 999 calls, whether it's domestic abuse, it's just bonkers. So the injustice of it, I can't stand injustice. And so that's what compelled me to make a difference, to fight to have these changes. And I, you know, long nights, early mornings, going onto TV shows, talking about my story, still doing it today. 44:36 That's why I'm here talking to you. You know, it's, it's a lot, but we have to keep the, we have to continue the conversation. We have to keep talking about the failures. And there's so much in my, in my case, there's so many failures that happened. 44:53 And I'm not unique that I'm not telling you this because this is what happened to me and poor me. This happens all the time. It just, it isn't necessarily articulated in a way that people will listen to it or people will understand it or victims don't want to talk about it. 45:09 They just want to forget what they've been through and they just want to get on with their lives. Whereas for me, I just can't stand it. You know, I want things to change and I've got a daughter and I've got a son, you know, and like my son's 19 now, my daughter's 15. They don't have any of these behaviours and they absolutely understand kind of what this looks like. 45:29 And I want that to be normal. It isn't OK to abuse somebody else and like what is going on in their world, in the perpetrators world to make them think it's OK. 45:40 Speaker 1 So do you think things changed in this 10 years? 45:44 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think we talk about it more, but I have to say there's still a lot of worrying reports that come back to me from victims that, you know, the same bias is there with police. 46:01 So when they're reporting to police, they're not, they're not understanding stalking behaviours. They're not understanding even harassment. Like even in my case, when he was calling me hundreds of times a day, I mean, that's stalking because it's hundreds of times a day and it's affecting my lifestyle. 46:18 But they never even suggested harassment. Still today that's going on. You know, the police, they take a call, I think it's something like every 10 minutes in West Midlands for domestic abuse. You know, it's, it's a huge problem. How are they prioritising those calls? 46:33 They're not. And something that I've campaigned for over the last 10 years is for Serial abusers of domestic abuse and stalking, serial perpetrators of domestic abuse and stalking, to be put on a register like sex offenders, so that then they can be proactively tracked and monitored. 46:51 So then the police are looking at the perpetrator. The lens is at the perpetrator, not the victim. Because a lot of the things that we've changed over the years have just in my eyes, have been sticking plasters, you know, Protection Orders. Look, we're asking for somebody that's unreasonable to behave with a reasonable request, you know, stop, stop contacting your victim because you're going to have this order slapped on you. 47:17 They don't care. They don't care about a piece of paper. You know, that's they're abusers. And so for me, having a register, having that joined up working, having a a database that other services across the justice system can access the relevant information at the right time. 47:39 And I always say right data, right time then that will save lives. 47:45 Speaker 1 I also wanted to ask you because I think it's important in this case to to to talk about it. Can you give any advice to someone? Well, I guess it's hard because there are two things, right? It's sometimes it's firstly, it's hard to understand that you're in an abusive relationship. 48:03 It might sound, but I think that it might sound contratutive, but it's actually is true. Sometimes people kind of, as you said, brush this under the cup and go like, whoa, but he's actually this and there are good things as well. I guess I want to ask about the layers of that. Firstly, how to understand that you're in an abusive relationship? 48:20 What are kind of the red flags to look for? Secondly, how can you help someone who, I don't know if it's your friend or a loved one who's you think not in the right place but not the right person, but also if you're in some in in in somewhere like that. 48:34 Speaker 2 So firstly, if you're in a relationship, a new relationship and your gut feelings telling you it's not right, listen to your gut, please. You know, we have instinct for a reason. I overrode mine all the time and that's one thing that I absolutely will take away from all of the things that I've gone gone through is that my gut feeling was right and I should have gone with my gut. 48:58 Secondly, you can do a Claire's Law. If you do feel like that and you are in a new relationship, do utilise Claire's Law and do a check because then you will know if they've got a history of this. And there's never just a one time offence that there's always a history, there's always a back story. 49:17 And then for somebody who's going through this, report it to the police. And I know I've said a lot here about how poorly the police responded in my case, but they're not all like that. And there are good police officers out there. But if you are reporting and you come up against police officers that aren't taking it seriously and they're making jokes and you know you have a similar situation to what I've described, go to a specialist charity like Paladin, the National Stalking Advocacy Service or any of the other national charities. 49:49 Get advice, ask them to advocate on your behalf. They will then work with you and they will talk to the police on your behalf. That then gives more weight to what you're saying to the police. They will also then risk a sexual situation. They will then be able to provide you with advice about staying safe and whether or not you should come out of the relationship and you know what you should do in those situations. 50:09 And for me, silence is an abuser's first weapon of choice. They want to silence you, they don't want you to talk to anyone. They will want to try and isolate you. And those kind of behaviours will be prevalent at the beginning, you know, very much so. Jason tried to keep me away from my friends, tried to turn me away, turn me against my friends. 50:28 Very convenient when my dad ended up in hospital because then I was very much on my own. The only people he needed to get rid of was my friends. So started to make comments or you know, when I made plans to go out with friends trying to stop that. So isolation, controlling, it's a, it's a grooming, it's a form of grooming and it's those kind of behaviours that you need to look out for. 50:50 Speaker 1 And I also wanted to ask you in terms of like police and reporting, like, are there any rules, like for example, you should have a female police officer when you report those cases? I don't know. I'm just asking you like, are there any rules like that? 51:02 Speaker 2 Well, there's no rules, but I mean, if you want to ask for a female police officer, say I don't feel comfortable with a male, why not? 51:07 Speaker 1 But you are you like, but you kind of you're eligible for that. You you should absolutely they should recommendate that. 51:13 Speaker 2 Well, I would challenge if they said no. Why? Yeah. You know. 51:17 Speaker 1 But also in terms of report, in terms of the if, if it kind of got to like physical abuse and if there were any injuries and stuff like that, What's the procedure there? Do you need to first, do you need to 1st go to the hospital? Is, is there a like a, is there a kind of like a, a cycle of how, how, what's the best kind of reporting system because. 51:37 Speaker 2 No, I don't think so. I mean, you know, it's as and when a victim is ready because more often than not it it takes many, many times before a victim even reports even after physical abuse. So on that, because then somebody listening to it might think, oh, but actually I don't fit into that, that box. 51:57 You report at any point, you know, you report at any time you feel comfortable and ready to do so, but absolutely report it, you know, and and get a support system around you if you can. And that's, and if you have been isolated by your perpetrator, that's where your charities will come in and support you and advocate with you and can be a sounding board, you know, you know, is this OK? 52:19 Is it not OK that's what they're there for? I guess one of the last questions I want to ask you is about. 52:25 Speaker 1 The mental health effects and I know you talked about about a lot about like fight and flight and you're much more like channelling that there and kind of fighting as a coping mechanism. But do you think that had an effect on you mentally and, and kind of how did you deal with it? 52:41 And kind of what can you also maybe recommend to people as well as you know, I literally went back to basics. 52:50 Speaker 2 And I started off from a position of learning about domestic abuse because it wasn't really a phrase that I used or was, you know, was in, in my life. Then when I started looking on the Internet at this kind of behaviour, I just was like the flip gates opened. 53:11 So education was really key for me to understand like what happened to me. And then also listening to the survivors talk and validation that you're not crazy, you're not going mad this happened to you. I wrote my book that's called Mind Over Manipulators. 53:28 And I talk in there about not just my story, but I at the end of each chapter talk about red flags and reflections. And the red flags are within that chapter. What were the red flags that I maybe didn't notice at the time? And I reflect on maybe subtle things that happened in my life that made me not recognise the abuse off the back of the book. 53:49 I've been contacted by lots of victims who've said exactly that. Like how, how have you done it? How have you recovered? And I'm now in the process of building a course to help survivors recover from abuse. And, you know, for me, it's like we're all at different stages. 54:04 We all deal with things differently. And it's working out where your baseline is and, and working from there and understanding trauma. I think like what's good for one person isn't necessarily good for someone else. So for me, I went and I went and had counselling. 54:21 I didn't find that helpful at all. All they wanted to do was go over what happened. And it's like, well, I know what happened. I don't need to talk about that. Like I literally am solution focused. I need to know what's happening next. What you know, where am I going next? How do I build back my life backup? 54:39 Understanding yourself first is key to recovery I guess. One thing last thing I wanted to ask you. 54:46 Speaker 1 It's kind of a bit philosophical, but when I think about it, I feel like that would be kind of the question that would be the hardest for me. How do you trust again after something like this? Like how do you can you learn? Can you learn it kind of back and you relearn to trust? Yeah, Well, I haven't stopped trusting because I. 55:02 Speaker 2 Didn't benchmark everybody on Jason Smith, you know, and I think that's my way of like I can decompartmentalise, you know, his behaviour is not someone else's behaviour. I, I mean, I've had the question before, like, how do you, do you hate men now? 55:19 No, because I was raised by a man and I have a son. So no, why would I hate men? Like, and I am in a new relationship, but it's not new now. It's like nearly nine years old. So, you know, I'm, I'm in a relationship with a, with a good guy. There's no red flags. 55:35 It hasn't been a problem for me. I get that that would be a problem for others that would and, and, and again, that's kind of going back to rebuilding your life and rebuilding those building blocks of trust back up again. I guess it's a really good point that. 55:49 Speaker 1 There are really good men and women out there and like not all men are like that. And that other thing is important because you can really stigmatise kind of yeah. And but I can understand if people. 56:01 Speaker 2 You know, victims, survivors do feel like that. I can absolutely understand that. And of course, it's absolutely valid as well because, you know, they've been completely and utterly broken down. And in my case, I was in a relationship with him for a year. 56:17 It's not really that a huge amount of time, but if somebody's been married for 20 years, let's say, and they've got three kids together and they've been married and that that's the only life that they know very difficult to then, you know, that converse, that question to them would be the answer would be very different to mine. 56:33 And so every, every survivor's journey is completely different. And the way that they will recover would be completely different. This is why there's just not A1 size fits all. So it's really is a very personal thing. Yeah. But I guess, yeah, it's also built. 56:48 Speaker 1 In a relationship like that, when you, when you mention like if it's been like 4 years and stuff, it's rebuilding your confidence back. And it's not just about trust. It's about firstly about your own confidence to kind of exactly go about it. Zoe. 56:59 Speaker 2 Thank you so much. 57:00 Speaker 1 I admire basically that you talk about those things because I can only imagine how traumatising that is, but I really admire kind of your thank you, I'm compelled I. 57:09 Speaker 2 Feel like, and you know, you said about spiritual, but I feel like it's my calling. Like, how can you, how can you be given a platform where people want to talk you, to talk about it publicly? And when I do talk, the feedback that I get from other victims, survivors, and like, thank you so much. 57:27 Thank you for being our voice. You know, I would never be able to do what you do. And it's like, well, I have to do it because it makes a difference. And there is so much learning across my case, but there's so much learning across many cases. And I would love to delve into that more and, and really find out what, you know, how can we make more change? 57:50 I wanted to actually ask you something, but that's. 57:52 Speaker 1 That's more for the for the case of anyone kind of listening, watching this because obviously there will be links to the charities and kind of resources you mentioned in the in in the description of this. But I wanted to ask you, are there support groups? Would you recommend support groups? 58:07 Are there support groups where people meet and like the survivors can talk? Because I feel like that would be helpful. Yeah. So I have a private. 58:14 Speaker 2 Facebook group for women. So yeah. And I think that find, find your group, find your group of women that you can go to and and get advice and peer support. It's so important that validation of the survivors who've been through it. 58:31 But I, you know, I do have a group of women that are in a private group that they, you know, they're the strongest women I know. You know, they've been through such harrowing experiences, but what they do now is give back by being part of this group and being able to support new members that join. 58:49 And you know, it's a beautiful thing.