Dog Behavior Explained: Scientist Alexandra Horowitz Reveals Your Dog's Mind to Oprah

This episode of the Oprah Podcast is presented by our fantastic partners at the Farmer's Dog. So you say that a dog's sense of smell is so powerful that they can detect, listen to you all, a teaspoon of sugar dissolves in a million gallons of water. That would be two Olympic-sized swimming pools. There are dogs who can detect a picogram of explosive, which is a trillionth of a gram. So they can be trained to detect drugs or COVID or the smell of cancerous cells. But even the dog we live with, they can smell all those things. And they can smell emotions. They smell our emotions. So everything that's happening in our body emotionally and physically, biologically, health-wise, creates its own smell. They can sense the change. Hi, everybody. A warm, warm welcome to you. Thanks for hanging out with me here on the Oprah Podcast. I have to say, one of the great, great joys of my life has been that I've been able to share my life with dogs since I was an adult. I think that they make life so much sweeter and richer in all the ways. Every single one of my dogs has been a teacher for me. I've had 21 dogs. Sadie is my 21st dog. And before Sadie, I had 11 dogs at one time. And that was the happiest I ever was in my life, was when I was living in Chicago and had a farm in Indiana. And we'd drive to the farm in Indiana on Fridays. And I had two dogs, Sophie and Solomon, who lived with me in Chicago. And the other nine dogs would be one. And I remember waiting at the farm, just the best, best, best days of my life, walking through the woods with my dogs. And I've often wondered what is really happening inside their minds. And I know those of you who are dog lovers, as I am, have wondered the same thing about your dogs. How do dogs experience the world? Well, my guest today has spent her career trying to answer that question. And she's not just a dog lover, like all of us. She's actually a dog lover and a scientist who studies their cognition. And their behavior. And she's the author of the number one New York Times bestseller, Inside of a Dog. And director of the Dog Cognition Lab at Barnard College, Dr. Alexander Horowitz. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming to this front porch. It is my pleasure. I've been on the porch here with many a dog. I've roamed these fields with many a dog. I feel their presence. Yeah. And now I know why they love being out here so much. Because I learned so much about what smells mean to the dog. So when we let the dogs out here, it is like, wow. A whole different universe than we experience. It's a whole different universe. Yes. So when you started writing about dogs, there really wasn't, I don't know if there was there, a lot of scientific research. How did you understand what's going on inside a dog, inside of a dog? Yeah, well. For every dog owner, you should have this book so you know what your dog is really thinking. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. Well, I mean, I asked the dogs, really. I became a scientist of dog cognition, which is really just looking at their behavior in a scientific way. And how do you do this? You have bunches of dogs in a space or? Sometimes I have dogs, I'll bring dogs into a laboratory space, which is just a boring room with nothing in it and just the one thing I want to show them. Or I'm observing dogs in the wild, as it were. Which is just interacting with each other or interacting with people and coding their behavior for certain patterns to see what do they need to know in order to be able to do that? Do they anticipate someone else's behavior? And so when I started this, yeah, there weren't a lot of people studying dogs at all. I lived with a dog, but it never occurred to me to study dogs. But once I started turning my gaze toward them, I never looked back. Once you started studying and you turned your gaze towards your own dog who has since passed. That first dog, you saw and experienced them differently, correct? Completely, completely. And when I started studying them, it's very different because living with dogs, you sort of feel like you know what their experience is like. I mean, it's a little bit analogous to our experience, we figure. Yeah, but I realized from reading Inside of a Dog that I have been projecting what I think onto what I think they're thinking. Yeah, very natural thing to do, right? We all anthropomorphize. That's how we make sense for the world. Yes. We sort of imagine that others are thinking of the world the way we are. And so, too, with those furry little faces looking at us. And as it turns out, when you start to understand it from their point of view, right, it's a completely different world. It's a smelly universe. They have different understanding of the world. What's amazing is that they're also able to understand the human world and live so smoothly with us nonetheless. Is it true that they have human-like intelligence? That's what dog lovers already want to be. I mean, certainly, in many respects, they do, right? Their brains work in the same way that ours do. They have memories. They learn like we do. They solve problems like we do. They can even, even though it's not their first language, understand some of our language, which is pretty impressive, I think. But I think the most interesting thing about their intelligence is the way it also differs from ours. And that has to do with their perceptual experience. I think it's interesting how you talk in the book Inside of a Dog. You talk about how legally we are all dog owners, but because they are property. But how would you describe your relationship with your dog? I say I'm my dog's person, right? They're my dog in a way, but I'm their person, right? We are family. Sometimes people use the word guardian. I think that also works. Property, ownership, that's legal. It doesn't represent how we feel about each other. And I think, you know, when I see a dog tied up in the backyard somewhere, I always feel like, oh, that dog owner thinks he is the owner in the way that he controls completely that dog. That's right. Yeah. Is there anything worse than seeing a dog being tied up in the backyard? Captive to that moment in time, right? Yes. Not in a relationship with someone at every moment, which is what they want and should be. So you say that a dog's sense of smell, this is what I learned from reading Inside of a Dog, y'all, is everything to the dog. And it made me understand how over the years, having had 21 dogs, I've had every kind of illnesses. I had five golden retrievers who all had a strain of cancer. I have had dogs who lost their sight and dogs who lost their, you know, ability to hear. You know, Sadie can no longer hear. But as long as that nose is working, the sense of smell is so powerful, you say, that they can detect, listen to you all, a teaspoon of sugar dissolving. They can detect the smell of a teaspoon of sugar in a million gallons of water. So how is that possible? That's how they're. I might notice if some sugar is in my coffee. Yes. But. I would notice if there was a teaspoon of sugar in this glass. That's right. Yeah. Right. But in a million gallons of water? Their whole anatomy is set up to be such strong smellers. They sniff. Their nose, their brain is set up to be smellers. So, yeah, there are dogs who can detect a picogram of explosive, which is a trillionth of a gram. You know, unimaginably small amounts. Yeah. That's why they're so great for drug detection. Absolutely. Right? But they could be. And these are dogs who are trained. Yes. Yeah. But even the dog we live with. Even untrained, right? They can smell all those things. It's just when they're trained. But you say it goes even further than that in smelling emotions. As you just said, they can detect cancer. They can detect COVID and even PTSD. How is that? How are they smelling cancer? How are they smelling COVID? These bodily changes have an odor. Really, almost everything has an odor. Oh. It's just we're not sticking our nose up to it. And detecting it. And also don't have the ability to detect it. Our noses are pretty good, but nothing like theirs. And they also behaviorally. Because I couldn't smell if someone had cancer. No, but there is a woman who smelled Parkinson's disease and her husband. And doctors did used to smell people's breath, their bodies for certain kinds of illnesses. Yeah. And dogs are just on that all the time. So everything that's happening in our body emotionally and physically, biologically, health-wise, creates its own scent, is what you're saying. There are changes in cells. And then there are things like perspiration or hormones in our sweats. And the dog smells that and senses that. Yeah. That's how they know you're sad. They're not just looking at your face. That's right. I mean, they do look at our face as well. Yeah. Right? Which is neat. They can read our emotions. I love the fact that it's the one animal that actually gives you eye contact. Right. Right. You can look at a dog and they're looking back at you and you feel that understanding. Right? Yes. It's intimacy. And for other animals, that is aggressive behavior. I wouldn't do it with a wolf. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, that's a threat to a wolf. Yeah. And, I mean, for us, it's part of what it's like to have a conversation with somebody. It's part of what it's like to have an intimate relationship with somebody. And they kind of bootstrapped on that. Yeah. So do they understand language? I've always heard that they can understand words as well as a toddler. Is that true? Yeah, in some ways. Like, do they have a vocabulary? I mean, they're not speaking. They're not producing words. But their perception is actually surprisingly good. If we talk to them clearly, most dogs will learn dozens of words. And there are some amazing dogs who have learned hundreds of words. Okay, so do they understand let's go for a walk because they understand the word walk? Or do they understand let's go for a walk because usually when you say let's go for a walk, you get the leash and you're headed out the door? They see both those things. But also the prosody of the sentence or the sing-songiness of the sentence. When I say let's go for a walk, then again, that's a certain sound that they associate with the thing that's going to happen. So are they like toddlers in that they, because I notice babies, and we all notice this, that babies react to your sing-songy voice. That's why people talk in your baby talk voice. And they react to the vibration. They act to the energy of your words as well as the words. We use something called dog-directed speech with dogs typically. Women more than men, but it's like a kind of baby talk. And it lets the dog know that of all this bubbling speech around them, some of it is directed to them. And that's the part they should pay attention to. And they get that. And they get that, right? That's what they're, they're little anthropologists watching us all the time, looking for cues from us. So if we use language carefully with them, they can pick up on it. Time for a break. Do you ever wonder how your dog seems to know they're going to the vet? Why do they love sticking? Their head's out the car window. And what is a soul dog? I have so many questions for Dr. Alexander Horowitz. And our listeners do too. So stay with us, dog lovers. Hello, listeners. I always say that one of the great joys of my life has been my dogs. So I am deeply committed to their well-being, just like our friends at The Farmer's Dog. From my golden retrievers to my copper spaniels, I've had 21 dogs over the years. Their smiles, they do smile, you know. Their snuggle. Their spirits remind me to slow down, to be present, and to appreciate the small comforts in life. Listen to this. The Farmer's Dog makes human-grade food for our dogs with real ingredients and minimal processing. So I've been feeding The Farmer's Dog to my cocker spaniel, Sadie, for a while now. Sadie's 17 and a half. Because it supports healthy aging, and I think it's giving us more good days together. Because every time I feed her The Farmer's Dog, I know I'm giving her safe, quality food. To all my fellow dog lovers, you know our beloved companions give us so much, and that is why The Farmer's Dog helps us do our best for them. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I have had 21 dogs in my life, so I wanted to talk with cognitive scientist and best-selling author of "Inside of a Dog," Dr. Alexander Horowitz. We're learning about what's really going on inside the mind of your dog and how they experience the world. I find this fascinating. Thank you. I find this so fascinating. Let's get back to it. I read in "Inside of a Dog" that they track our movements. Mm-hmm. How are they doing that? They're really attuned to us all the time. I mean, think of what's happening ordinarily. If you're sitting in a room with your dog, nothing is happening for them. So they notice all the associations between when you get up and you're going to the refrigerator versus when you get up and you're going to get the leash and go for a walk. We're moving differently. Right? As anyone who sat in the corner of your room and studied you could start to tell. That you move differently when you're going to the refrigerator. Yes. Or you're going to get something out of the closet than you do when you're going to get ready to go for a walk. Right. Our intentions are in our movement, right? And the dog senses that. Yes. They're great observers. Oh. I wish we'd be better observers of them, but they're great observers of us. And aren't they great observers? Because they're so fully present. Yeah. Yes. They, I mean, sometimes people like to say, well, dogs just live in the moment. I mean, I do think they have a real feeling of their past. They have memories and they think about the future. But they're great observers of the moment. Okay. Okay. You just said you do think they have. So do they have memories of their past? Do they think about the future? Yeah. Yeah, they absolutely do. It's very tricky in animal cognition research to try to ask an animal. Who's not answering your questions in language. You know, what do you remember? But all of their behavior indicates that they remember episodes. They remember people. Tell me how. Tell me how. Well, I mean, does the dog recognize someone when they return home after being absent for a month? Absolutely. They might not recognize them by sight right away, but they'll recognize their smell. Their smell. Yeah. So they're thinking about and know about things that happened in the past. That's right. And if you have ever hit a dog, the dog will, or like a body. Like I've bought many dogs from the shelter. Yeah. You raise your hand, the dog, you know, cowers. That's right. Because the dog remembers being hit. That's how they learn anything, is learn associations and remember it. So, yeah, they'll remember who hit them, that it happened, what preceded it, and how they felt afterward. They remember you took me to the beach and we had a good time. We were going in the water. That's right. Or I don't want to go to the vet and this is the route to the vet. Yeah. And one of the reasons they don't want to go to the vet is because they don't want to go to the vet. One of the reasons they don't want to go to the vet is because they remember the route to the vet because of the way it smells. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly right. They remember the way it smells. And the vet smells a certain way too, right? The veterinary office smells like stressed dogs who've been there before. Right. And they're smelling all the stress of all the dogs who've been there. Yeah. Unbelievable. And is that why when we get off the freeway, just even when we're exiting the freeway, I notice, and Sadie's in the backseat, she stands up and does she smelling things? Yeah. Or does she recognize this is our road? I think all the cues, right? If you turn off the main road, you're slowing down. It's slower. The road might be different under the tires. Suddenly the air comes in. The window is slightly different. And the smell of every place is distinct. And dogs are good observers of that. You say that simply being closer to the ground, the fact that the dogs are closer to the ground, changes how dogs experience sound. How they experience smell. And even their personal space. I just never thought of it that way before. I think one of the great ways to start thinking about what it's like to be a dog is to just get down on their level, right? Where they're among human knees and ankles and clanking shoes, and sound travels differently down there, right? Yeah. It bounces more. The rumbling of a fan you put on the floor will be felt. And then, of course, there are all sorts of smells on the ground. Most smells are in the air. And they land on the ground over time. And so it's full of information about who's been there. So when the dogs are walking, you see these people pulling their dogs along when their dogs are trying to, you know, sniff, sniff, sniff, sniff, sniff. Yeah. You're doing the antithesis of what that dog really is going for the walk for. After reading Inside a Dog, I thought, oh, the dogs aren't walking to get exercise. Everybody's trying to get the dogs out to exercise. The dogs are walking for the smell sensation. That's right. It's a smelling universe for them. Exactly. Right. The walk is for them, right? Yeah. And we think, oh, we have to make good time. We have to exercise you. You have to go relieve yourself. But as soon as you walk outside and the world has changed, the scent has changed a little bit. There's evidence who's been there in the past. That's what the dogs want to notice. If there's another dog, they want to sniff that dog, see who they are, where they've been, if they're healthy. So I love to take my dogs on smell walks where one of the walks just is me letting them sniff whatever they want to sniff for as long as they want. Why do dogs love this? We've all seen this, and my dog does, too. When Sadie puts her head out the window, she looks like Farrah Fawcett, I have to say. Why do dogs love sticking their head out the car window? Because when humans do it, we can't breathe. Why do they love it? I think it's like olfactory fireworks, right? Every smell at once, all at once. Which is just like a delicious experience. All those smells at once. That's why they're all grinning when their heads are out the window. It's like, "Oh, come on, baby. Bring it to me, baby." Yeah. We have a few dog lovers joining us with questions for Dr. Horowitz. Rachel, hi. Hi. Thank you so much for having me. I've enjoyed this conversation thoroughly. So I have never been a dog person. I am married to a man who rolls around on the floor with every dog that he sees. And about two years ago, our daughter came to us and begged us to rescue the sweetest, most scared, but very sick dog. I reluctantly agreed to adopt him, and I spent the next year and a half going to every vet, every specialist, hospitalized him to try to help. To try to help and make him feel better. And his name is Beau. So Beau has been on his health journey now. He's doing much better for the past six months. But what I've come to realize is that I love him like he is part of my soul. like he is my soul dog yeah the same way that i feel about my husband like my husband is my soul mate so my question is is this bull think that i'm his soul mate or soul person also and i know that you've had 21 dogs have you ever had this feeling oh my god yes your soul knows oh my god yes rachel i've had this feeling but so yes i don't know if and my my soul dog also knew that he was my soul dog i could start crying right now i really could my soul dog was luke and i i still i still think of him and i think when i transition luke will be there to greet me on the other side that's what i think so yeah that's that's that's what i feel and i and i knew he knew i knew he knew he knew yeah so dr what do you want to say yeah i mean i've also had i think more than one soul dog actually for different times in my life and for different me's in a way different ways that i was being in the world and this this is there's a real basis to this right just it's analogous to the a child parent relationship in that dogs feel attachment um just like children feel attachment to their caregivers and they attach to a person or persons yeah and that connection is the basis of this dog-human bond and it's a real physical connection you know people and dogs when they um are bonded like this they'll sit together and their heart rhythms synchronize with each other right by just looking at each other in the eyes they their oxytocin levels rise so this is a real experience that you're having it's not just something that you're concocting right and it's the basis of why dogs are so great with people and how is beau now you said he's going through health issues so for the past six months he's healthy um people come up to me all the time to tell me they can't believe he's the same dog so knocking on every veterinarian's door in our town worked really yeah yeah well we're going through it with sadie i mean i think we're in the last days of sadie and i would have to say i was on tour in australia in december and my dog caregiver was like we don't think you know she's going to make it so i rushed home i thought i was going to have to put her down and then when i got here she was she perked up you know but i would have to say that nearing the end and knowing it's the end because sadie is 17 so we know we don't have a whole long time um that there's something really quite precious about these days too because you know you're in the in the final days so yeah enjoy enjoy all those years of beau that you have ahead of you i want to know how has beau enhanced your life how has he changed you i'm a different person i am not the same person that you would have met two years ago how how so how so i joined my husband rolling around on the floor with all the other dogs yay um i actually think it's made my marriage even stronger um because it was a love that he had that i didn't understand and now i understand how you can love from the bottom of your heart like really love love an animal more than yourself yeah yeah well god bless you for that i think that's a wonderful thing to have that as uh as another soul mate in the world thank you rachel yes thank you thank you marissa dog mom to 10 year old harvey is joining us from texas hi marissa well i'm so glad to be here so yes um i am the lucky mom to harvey he will be 10 later this year um harvey and i actually met harvey and i actually met um harvey and i actually met um harvey and i actually met um um and i am the lucky mom to harvey he will be 10 later this year um harvey and i actually met um um and i actually met um harvey and i actually met um 10 years ago but i'm quite positive we were 10 years ago but i'm quite positive we were 10 years ago but i'm quite positive we were family in a past life i just know it family in a past life i just know it family in a past life i just know it um we met in san diego uh back when i lived we met in san diego uh back when i lived we met in san diego uh back when i lived in california in california in california i was volunteering for a foster i was volunteering for a foster i was volunteering for a foster organization i was his foster mother and organization i was his foster mother and organization i was his foster mother and as the story goes as the story goes as the story goes of course i meet him and i know of course i meet him and i know of course i meet him and i know instantly that i i've known you you're instantly that i i've known you you're instantly that i i've known you you're his person his person his person you're his person oh yeah yes he is my you're his person oh yeah yes he is my you're his person oh yeah yes he is my person um person um person um so yes i was a foster win as i like to so yes i was a foster win as i like to so yes i was a foster win as i like to call it call it call it um so harvey and i have now spent uh the um so harvey and i have now spent uh the um so harvey and i have now spent uh the last nine years traveling the united last nine years traveling the united last nine years traveling the united states together we lived in california states together we lived in california states together we lived in california we lived for a little bit in minneapolis we lived for a little bit in minneapolis we lived for a little bit in minneapolis we were in chicago for four years and we were in chicago for four years and we were in chicago for four years and now we're down here in dallas texas so now we're down here in dallas texas so now we're down here in dallas texas so i swear he has more um airline miles i swear he has more um airline miles i swear he has more um airline miles than most people do but um it's been than most people do but um it's been than most people do but um it's been really fun to just travel this country really fun to just travel this country really fun to just travel this country with him with him with him and kind of explore with him um but and kind of explore with him um but my question for you so my question for you so my question for you so we've been together a long time and we've been together a long time and we've been together a long time and whenever i get ready to leave or head whenever i get ready to leave or head whenever i get ready to leave or head out the door out the door out the door harvey seems to do the same thing so harvey seems to do the same thing so harvey seems to do the same thing so whether i'm going out to the mailbox for whether i'm going out to the mailbox for whether i'm going out to the mailbox for a minute or maybe i'm going for some a minute or maybe i'm going for some a minute or maybe i'm going for some errands that i'm running for the day errands that i'm running for the day errands that i'm running for the day harvey will get anxious harvey will get anxious harvey will get anxious so my question for you is more about so my question for you is more about so my question for you is more about the concept of time the concept of time the concept of time so do dogs understand the concept of so do dogs understand the concept of so do dogs understand the concept of time does he understand that when i'm time does he understand that when i'm time does he understand that when i'm gone for five minutes or the full day gone for five minutes or the full day gone for five minutes or the full day does he know how long i've been gone does he know how long i've been gone does he know how long i've been gone because it seems like because it seems like because it seems like either way it has the same emotional either way it has the same emotional either way it has the same emotional impact on him when he sees me getting impact on him when he sees me getting impact on him when he sees me getting ready to leave out the door yeah he ready to leave out the door yeah he ready to leave out the door yeah he seems to get that same emotional seems to get that same emotional seems to get that same emotional reaction so i'm curious just what he's reaction so i'm curious just what he's reaction so i'm curious just what he's thinking about as i'm getting ready to thinking about as i'm getting ready to thinking about as i'm getting ready to leave out the door leave out the door leave out the door great observation you know the flip side great observation you know the flip side great observation you know the flip side of that attachment we were talking about of that attachment we were talking about of that attachment we were talking about is that in separation dogs are stressed is that in separation dogs are stressed they're anxious right and that's part of they're anxious right and that's part of they're anxious right and that's part of the bond actually it's the kind of the bond actually it's the kind of the bond actually it's the kind of negative side of the bond which is that negative side of the bond which is that negative side of the bond which is that when you're attached to someone you when you're attached to someone you when you're attached to someone you don't want to see them go don't want to see them go don't want to see them go and i do when you're gone they're and i do when you're gone they're and i do when you're gone they're stressed and when you're gone there's stressed and when you're gone there's stressed and when you're gone there's some stress involved probably why sadie some stress involved probably why sadie perked up when you returned right perked up when you returned right perked up when you returned right there's the relief of that there's the relief of that there's the relief of that and it is a really cool question to say and it is a really cool question to say and it is a really cool question to say well does that mean they don't have a well does that mean they don't have a well does that mean they don't have a sense of how long you're gone and there sense of how long you're gone and there sense of how long you're gone and there actually was research that looked at actually was research that looked at actually was research that looked at this question what they did was they this question what they did was they this question what they did was they looked at the greeting behavior that you looked at the greeting behavior that you looked at the greeting behavior that you get when you come back in the door right get when you come back in the door right get when you come back in the door right that great enthusiastic reply yeah and that great enthusiastic reply yeah and that great enthusiastic reply yeah and they had people leave their dogs for a they had people leave their dogs for a they had people leave their dogs for a few minutes or a half an hour or several few minutes or a half an hour or several few minutes or a half an hour or several hours and they looked at the intensity hours and they looked at the intensity hours and they looked at the intensity of the greeting of the greeting of the greeting and they found that the longer the and they found that the longer the and they found that the longer the people were gone the more people were gone the more people were gone the more tail wagging licking shaking intensive tail wagging licking shaking intensive tail wagging licking shaking intensive greeting they got so dogs in their greeting they got so dogs in their greeting they got so dogs in their behavior behavior behavior look like they do appreciate the distant look like they do appreciate the distant look like they do appreciate the distant the time you've been gone from them and the time you've been gone from them and the time you've been gone from them and in that way they're kind of in that way they're kind of in that way they're kind of marking time yeah it's definitely marking time yeah it's definitely marking time yeah it's definitely different even though they're whatever different even though they're whatever different even though they're whatever excited every time you come back in the excited every time you come back in the excited every time you come back in the door yeah door yeah door yeah i noticed this with sadie that uh i noticed this with sadie that uh i noticed this with sadie that uh especially when she was really well especially when she was really well especially when she was really well that if you're gone for a few minutes i that if you're gone for a few minutes i that if you're gone for a few minutes i remember coming saying look i've only remember coming saying look i've only remember coming saying look i've only been gone for a few minutes and and been gone for a few minutes and and been gone for a few minutes and and you're just excited but if you're gone you're just excited but if you're gone you're just excited but if you're gone for a long time she would like go for a long time she would like go for a long time she would like go around in circles and bark and yeah and around in circles and bark and yeah and around in circles and bark and yeah and do all the things like pull out all the do all the things like pull out all the do all the things like pull out all the stuff pull out all the stuff yeah stuff pull out all the stuff yeah stuff pull out all the stuff yeah toys yeah yes yes toys yes yes yes toys yes yes yes run and get a toy and all that he wants run and get a toy and all that he wants run and get a toy and all that he wants to run and go grab something and bring to run and go grab something and bring to run and go grab something and bring it back to me and show me right when i it back to me and show me right when i it back to me and show me right when i get back yeah yeah wow i also think they get back yeah yeah wow i also think they get back yeah yeah wow i also think they mark time through smell right smells mark time through smell right smells change over time and our spaces smell change over time and our spaces smell change over time and our spaces smell like us right the longer you're gone like us right the longer you're gone like us right the longer you're gone nor everybody has a smell it's a nor everybody has a smell it's a nor everybody has a smell it's a perfectly normal thing and our dogs know perfectly normal thing and our dogs know perfectly normal thing and our dogs know it they'll recognize us by our smell it they'll recognize us by our smell it they'll recognize us by our smell alone the longer you're gone the less alone the longer you're gone the less alone the longer you're gone the less your space smells of you being there so your space smells of you being there so your space smells of you being there so time is kind of marked in the passage time is kind of marked in the passage time is kind of marked in the passage of odor during the day everything is of odor during the day everything is of odor during the day everything is when you read this book marissa when you read this book marissa when you read this book marissa everything everything everything is through the nose everything is through the nose everything is through the nose everything everything is about the smell i mean everything is about the smell i mean everything is about the smell i mean because it's how they see the world because it's how they see the world because it's how they see the world right they see the world through their right they see the world through their right they see the world through their nose yeah nose yeah nose yeah and that's how their brain works and that's how their brain works and that's how their brain works olfactory cognition yeah olfactory cognition yeah olfactory cognition yeah thank you marissa thank you thank you marissa thank you thank you marissa thank you you and harvey 10 years together you and harvey 10 years together you and harvey 10 years together that's beautiful listeners is your dog that's beautiful listeners is your dog that's beautiful listeners is your dog sitting in the window waiting for you to sitting in the window waiting for you to sitting in the window waiting for you to get home before you even pull in the get home before you even pull in the get home before you even pull in the driveway driveway driveway how do they know to do that for older how do they know to do that for older how do they know to do that for older dogs do they know their time is coming dogs do they know their time is coming dogs do they know their time is coming to an end more dog questions for dr to an end more dog questions for dr to an end more dog questions for dr alexander horowitz after a quick break alexander horowitz after a quick break alexander horowitz after a quick break hello listeners i always say that one of hello listeners i always say that one of hello listeners i always say that one of the great joys of my life has been the great joys of my life has been the great joys of my life has been my dogs so i am deeply committed to my dogs so i am deeply committed to my dogs so i am deeply committed to their well-being just like our friends their well-being just like our friends their well-being just like our friends of the farmer's dog from my golden of the farmer's dog from my golden of the farmer's dog from my golden retrievers to my copper spaniels i've retrievers to my copper spaniels i've retrievers to my copper spaniels i've had 21 dogs over the years their smiles had 21 dogs over the years their smiles had 21 dogs over the years their smiles they do smile you know their snuggles they do smile you know their snuggles they do smile you know their snuggles their spirits remind me to slow down to their spirits remind me to slow down to their spirits remind me to slow down to be present and to appreciate the small be present and to appreciate the small be present and to appreciate the small comforts in life listen to this the comforts in life listen to this the comforts in life listen to this the farmer's dog makes human grade food for farmer's dog makes human grade food for farmer's dog makes human grade food for our dogs with real ingredients and our dogs with real ingredients and our dogs with real ingredients and minimal processing so i've been feeding minimal processing so i've been feeding minimal processing so i've been feeding the farmer's dog to my cocker spaniel the farmer's dog to my cocker spaniel the farmer's dog to my cocker spaniel sadie for a while now sadie's 17 and a sadie for a while now sadie's 17 and a sadie for a while now sadie's 17 and a half because it supports healthy aging half because it supports healthy aging half because it supports healthy aging and i think it's giving us more good and i think it's giving us more good and i think it's giving us more good days together because every time i feed days together because every time i feed days together because every time i feed her the farmer's dog i know i'm giving her the farmer's dog i know i'm giving her the farmer's dog i know i'm giving her safe quality food to all my fellow her safe quality food to all my fellow her safe quality food to all my fellow dog lovers you know our beloved dog lovers you know our beloved dog lovers you know our beloved companions give us so much and that is companions give us so much and that is companions give us so much and that is why the farmer's dog helps us do our why the farmer's dog helps us do our why the farmer's dog helps us do our best for them best for them best for them thank you for joining me here on the thank you for joining me here on the thank you for joining me here on the oprah podcast for my conversation with oprah podcast for my conversation with oprah podcast for my conversation with dog expert dog expert dog expert best-selling author alexandra horowitz best-selling author alexandra horowitz best-selling author alexandra horowitz we're having so many i never thought of we're having so many i never thought of we're having so many i never thought of it that way dog moments so go ahead and it that way dog moments so go ahead and it that way dog moments so go ahead and share this episode with the fellow dog share this episode with the fellow dog share this episode with the fellow dog lovers in your life and while you're at lovers in your life and while you're at lovers in your life and while you're at it hit subscribe to the oprah podcast won't cost you a thing. So you believe that trying to show your dog that you're the boss can be harmful. And we know that there are lots of trainers who do that, you know, like you, I'm the one in charge. Right. Why do you, why do you not condone that? Well, again, I look at the science, you know, people are looking at wolf behavior to try to explain how you should be with your dog. And there's very old science that said, oh, when you look at wolves in a captive environment, they establish a dominance hierarchy and their leaders are alphas who have access to all the resource. But then when people could actually study how wolves behave naturally in the wild, it turned out they live in family packs and there are leaders of the group. It's the parents who live with their offspring and their offspring's offspring. And so they're not maintaining their leadership by force, by being bossy. They're not bullying, right? They just know more. And so they tend to be in charge. And we are also in that kind of situation. Dogs are our family. They view us as parents, essentially, in that pack. And we control all aspects of their life already, right? We don't need to worry that they're going to try to threaten our leadership and boss them or bully them around for it. I notice that sometimes your dog knows that you're coming even before the car pulls up or if the car's in the driveway, or we've seen these stories on social media of the dog waiting for the car to pull up. And I think that's a really good point. I think that's a really good waiting in the window for the kids to come home or the dog knows that the school bus is coming long before the school bus comes. How do they know that? Are they smelling it or are they, they just know it's this time of day? I think both things are true, right? Again, they're great. They understand our habits. So if we create a habit, they learn that perfectly right away. That's how you can train a dog just by creating a relationship. That's how Pavlov trained the dogs. That's right. Right. Like they learn association. So if you come and go at the same time every day, they know when that time is and they're ready for you. And if you feed them at the same time every day. They know that as well, right? Even if we don't think we're doing it, you know, the dog will show up ready to be fed. Yeah. But also I do think the smells of the room change over the course of the day and they're attuned to that. Just like it gets dark outside and we notice that the day is ending, right? It's a totally normal thing for us to notice. They're also noticing the day in odors. I think, I think this is so interesting because, you know, for years we were told that your dog doesn't know the difference between five minutes or five hours. So what you were saying to Marissa really changes all that. That your dog does, your dog isn't saying, oh, well, 7.07 or it's been 25 minutes or it's been an hour. Right. That's, that's, that's a human concept. That's a human concept. Yeah. They do know the difference between it's been five hours or it's been five minutes or it's been five days. That's right. Right. They do. They feel that and they're noting all those changes of the day and as, as we'd expect. Right. And when you're not there, they're stressed. Yeah. It's stressful to be apart. Right. But they also can calm from that stress. For some dogs, it's more stressful than others. I had a dog, Sophie, who just literally, you couldn't, I couldn't leave her anywhere. She had such anxiety. Yeah. I mean, in children, howling in the hotel rooms, it's like an insecure attachment, right? Yes. But with a dog who has a secure attachment, when you come, they calm, right? The stress is transient. It's just, they want to be back in that relationship. What are they doing all day? So there's so many people who are listening to us right now who have pets and they obviously have to leave home and what are those dogs doing all day? Yeah. Well, often not a lot. We don't usually give them a lot to do, so they'll try to make work. Are they bored? Yeah. Dogs get absolutely get bored during the day. Right. I think it's a great, they'll rest. So it's not that they have to be at work all day doing something, but if we give them nothing to do, they'll find things to do. I think a lot of what we think of as misbehavior, pulling out our shoes and chewing on them and so forth, that's because they were bored. They didn't have anything to do. Nothing to do. Is it better to have, as I said, at one point I had 11 dogs at one time. That's too much unless you do have a farm. But I've always thought that having at least another dog is good for the dog. I think it depends on the dog and the person, the type of relationship you want to have. I mean, now you live with one dog and, you know, that's a very specific relationship. When you have many dogs, they get to have relationships with each other. Right. Which is great. Right. So if you're a working person, is it better to have two dogs because that dog has a relationship with something, that dog has something to do during the day? It does give them social companion. So for a lot of dogs, that's great. I mean, some dogs don't want to be with any other dog. So I would, you have to know your dog. But yeah, social companionship during the day. Come over, bother me, come over, play with me. That's much better than being left alone if you're a social creature. Mm-hmm. Jaime is zooming in from Houston. Welcome, Jaime. Hi there. Hi. This has been a wonderful conversation. My dog Lennox was 14. He died on December 10th of 2025. And sorry, I'm going to try to get through my question without crying. I know. He was the most amazing dog. And he was with me through every life milestone, the birth of my children, my wedding. And when he passed, we had a week of time before we were going to have to euthanize him. He was deteriorating. And the vet said that that was the best decision. And my question is just, did he understand that that was his time? Because obviously, we made the decision for him. And I feel a lot of guilt that I took time away from him. So I just want to understand if he understood that it was his time and that it's okay. That's so hard. And I think what you're experiencing, we experience, right? And grief is a normal part of a strong relationship ending. And I think a lot of people do have to unfortunately be in that situation where they're making a decision about the end of their animal's life. I think that's very hard. So don't make yourself feel guilty about it. Now your dog probably Lennox probably knew that he was aging, right? He could feel I can't jump up. I don't hear as well. I can't run as fast as I used to. So they're experiencing their own aging process. As we've said before, you know, I don't think that they really live in the moment. I think they're thinking ahead and they're remembering the past. But they're such great observers of that moment and the things you were doing for him in his final week, he would have been completely gladdened by those things, right? Those were terrific things. And having you there and being with him, that's what he would have noticed, not felt suspicious or worried or anticipating something horrible happening, right? So he knew where he was and what he wanted was to be in that space with you. And that's what you gave him. So don't feel the guilt. You know, Jaime, if you've been listening, I was sharing, I'm going through this right now. And, you know, I was just asking myself the question this morning. If we didn't have all of these medications trying to keep her from having pain, would she have already gone on her own? And so I'm wrestling with this question right now. When is it time? How did you all come to the decision that it was time? When we went to the vet, he was just like having a lot of trouble, like holding on to his bowels and just like having a regular normal life. And we basically like tried to explore other options. And the veterinarian said that regardless of the other options, he would never be the same Lennox he was when he was like running and jumping and doing all the things. And so it was just the decision of we can keep him on this medication regimen, but he still could not have the best quality of life. So that that was the choice to make to give him peace. It's the quality of life that matters. Yeah. And the spirit and you when you say this not going to be the same Lennox, right? When you see that this person, this dog, you know, is is lost themselves at some level. Right. They're not the same spirit. That's when you know it's time. Right. And that's so horrible that we have to oversee this part of their life. But it sounds like you did as much as you could for Lennox and he would have looked in your face. I know that. Yeah. Smelled it. Thank you. We would have looked in your face and smelled it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. How are your family and your kids doing? They're doing well. There's a really awesome book about dogs going to heaven. And my son loves to read it. He's four years old and he loves to read it at bedtime during his prayers. He still prays for him every night. So he's still very much with us, even though he's not with us physically. But he's he's always going to be with us. He's going to be a constant, I'm sure, even if and when we do decide to adopt another dog, he'll always be a part of our family. I was going to say, are you will you will you be adopting another dog? Oh, it's such a hard choice, Oprah, because we we before my husband and I said, like, oh, I can't believe people like lose a dog and then immediately adopt. But now that we're in this position, we're like, the house is way too quiet. We need a dog immediately. So we're thinking about it. We just we don't want to rush into it, but we're definitely thinking about it. Okay, you'll get your job. You've become a totally new person, you know? Yeah. That's the thing. It's not the same one again. It's a new relationship. It's a new energy and new relationship coming into that. But it does fill that space and that silence. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much, Jaime. Thanks for sharing. Thank you. Thank you for having me. While we were working on this show, my team came across an Instagram that caught our eye. Listen to Steve's story. I had a little dog named Wolfgang. He just went everywhere with me. When Wolfgang died, I think he was 12. It was just devastating. So I thought, well, if something good could come out of these deaths, maybe it would make it better. I decided I would go to the shelter, and I would find the oldest dog that wasn't going to get adopted. So I adopted a 13-year-old chihuahua, and he was so happy. It was immediately healing. I had plenty of room, so I adopted. I adopted another one and another one, and I ended up at nine. I started an Instagram called Wolfgang2242. It wasn't started out as a senior rescue page. It just grew organically. I realized what I was doing with these dogs was very fulfilling to people because people get to see this dog come from the shelter with its final few years left and get to live out a happy life. What I found out after adopting senior dogs is it's just. the best situation. They have settled into the best version of themselves, and you get to enjoy that. If you're reading, they want to be right there by your feet. They're great for movie nights. They want to be with you. It's always hard on me when one goes. A lot of people say, how do you keep doing this? But I bring it back to being about the pet. I made sure that they were in a safe, happy, love home. It's a win. Every time is a win. ♪♪♪♪♪ To know that. The Instagram is having an effect on people and more senior dogs are getting adopted, that gives me purpose. Wow. I hear because of Steve's Instagram page, hundreds of senior dogs have been adopted. That's really incredible. Steve is joining us from Ohio. Hi, Steve. You remind me. Oh, hi, Oprah. I'm so glad to hear your story because I have a friend, Sally Jordan, in Santa Barbara, who's done the same thing over the years. She's adopted, you know, disabled dogs. And senior dogs. And you go to her house and dogs are like in their little wheelchair carts. And they. Yeah. It's really. It takes a magnanimous heart to do that. It's really wonderful. And why do you. Because everybody loves the puppies. Everybody loves the puppies. And why are you attracted to the seniors, do you think? Well, I think I wasn't originally because, you know, I've had dogs my whole life. So I've had puppies and that whole experience. But I specifically adopted the senior, you know, to give my dog's death meaning. Another dog would get to live because he died. And then I found out how incredible they are. They're so grateful. And as I said in that piece, I think, you know, as we get older, we become, hopefully, the best versions of ourselves. And I think that's what happens with dogs. You know, they just settle into who they are. And they're just so easy. It's just so easy. And they're so grateful. Yeah. You know what I've noticed too? I realized one of the reasons why I have such peace about getting older myself is because I've watched so many dogs go through that process. Do you find the same thing? I do. And something you'd said earlier that I thought was so important, you know, you said understanding that you don't have that much time left with Sadie. Yes. And that it's special. Yeah. And I believe that. I believe it's, you know, it's an honor. You are, you get to guard this, you know, living being through the end of their days. And I think that's just a terrific honor. And there's some beauty in that. I really do believe that. Do you have a question for Dr. Horowitz? Actually, it's kind of a two-parter. I've been, as I said, rescuing senior dogs for almost 15 years now. And when they come to me, they either don't have a name or they've got their name from, you know, their previous life. And I always change it, almost always change it. There's been one or two that I kept. My thought was, you know, new life, new name. But I read once that a dog associates their name with you, not with themselves. So, you know, like Moira here would be like, OK, this tall, skinny old man calls me Moira. And therefore, it has no ill effect on them by renaming them because they associate it with you. And I wondered what your thoughts were on that. I mean, I think that's a really great, cool observation. There is something to it in that, you know, who is saying their name and how they are saying it, I think it's part of what their name is to a dog. In other words, it's not words on a page to them. Say it again. Who is saying their name-- Who is saying their name and how they're saying it is what their name is, right? And we know this actually kind of intuitively because if you've lived with dogs-- you give your dogs nicknames, right? My Pumpernickel, who was in Inside of a Dog. She's Pee-nickel and Nick and Pump and Kiddo and, you know. And she came to all those names, right? And dogs learn their names really quickly, but they're also very much associating it with who's saying it to them and how they're saying it to them. And so, yeah, they can pick up on this new name, which means a new life. Yes. Yeah, that makes sense. The second part of the question is, I have never, in all the years I've been doing this, I have never once had trouble bringing a dog into the group. I've never had my group not accept a dog, and I've never had the new dog not accept the group. I don't know whether that's because they're all seniors and they're just kind of laid back and chill, or is it because that there's so many dogs, they're not as territorial over me as if I just had one dog. I think they probably do establish-- their own social group, which includes you, right, but includes each other, and they're seeing that when they come in. But I think probably my speculation would be the main part of it is that when we mostly meet dogs, they're puppies or adolescents. And at that time in their life, you know, their body has far outpaced the development of their brain. They have not grown into their brains yet. And as adult and senior dogs, their brain has caught up, right, and they can just be the flex and flexible social companions to each other that they're so good at being, and the reason we domesticated them. Every time I was introducing a new dog, I remember introducing Sunny and Lauren to Luke and Layla and Sadie and that group. And I would put my t-shirt on the new dogs, let the new dogs sleep in my t-shirt overnight, and introduce the new dogs to the old dogs in my t-shirt. There would be my scent combined with the scent of the dogs. I think you were already a smell scientist. I knew it. Yeah, there was something about my scent. That's interesting. I'd also heard that if you take them for a walk together immediately, that establishes they're in the same pack and that gets rid of any-- you know, I've never had that issue, but when people have asked me about it, you know, and they've probably got two dogs and bringing a third one in, that's usually what I tell them to do. That's a great-- that's great advice, right? Like, it's like having a conversation with-- a hard conversation with a child. You want to sit both in the car and face the same direction. You know, go on a walk together. Let the dogs kind of experience the world in parallel for a moment before they come back into the space where somebody has their special bed or someone likes a certain spot and doesn't want to have it-- someone else be in there. How many dogs do you have right now? How many dogs-- Who's on the couch? It's funny. I laughed when you said that you had 11 at one point. I keep nine. That's my number. That's the number I can deal with the best. And having said that, there's a rescue group that I work with in Florida a lot, and they just talked me into taking another one. So right now I have 10, although my normal number is nine. And you feed-- And it is different because they're seniors. So it's a different-- their activity level is different. Yeah, well, yeah, I had no seniors. It was crazy all the time, and feeding time was always-- was always crazy. And you know, I have to say this. For years, I was making all the food for my dogs. And for years, Sadie has had homemade, fresh food. And now she only eats the farmer's dog. Oh, that's exactly what I feed too. You feed your dogs the farmer's dog? Yeah, and I just-- I tried to do with my dogs what I do with myself. You know, the more-- the less processed the food is, you know, the fresher-- the fresher the food is. Yeah. And I've seen dogs come to me from a bad situation, and they start eating, you know, less processed, fresh food, and they just come to life. It makes such a difference. Do senior dogs need a special diet? Only if they-- like, I have one that's in kidney failure too. Yeah. And that one needs a special diet. Yeah. Generally speaking, the rest of them all eat the same thing. Yeah. And your dog that's in kidney failure, what are you doing special? for that dog. - We do fluids. - Yeah. - And then I have a renal diet because it's, it's lower in protein and it's lower in, um, assault, I believe. Um, so she, you know, she has to be on that. Um, and then I have to do the fluids like three times a week. And then we just found out that she's got a low grade heart disease now, which is really tough because what you do for heart disease, um, it can, it conflicts with what they've got with kidney disease. So the heart disease does not want fluids and yet I have to do the fluids. So I just have to back off the fluids and, um, do less of them. Um, but maybe more often. I don't want to see your vet bill. Oh, honey child. It's funny. I was just there today and I have to go back in the morning. It's just, yeah, it's, and then, but to be fair, there will be months and months where I don't have to go at all and everybody's great, you know, and then sometimes it rains. That's what I was going to say, Steve. I think a lot of people fear adopting a senior dog because they'll be set number one, set in their behaviors, or you think that the dog is going to soon die, or you think you're going to have all kinds of medical problems. What do you want people to know about what it's like to adopt an older dog? Yeah, to me, it's really just, um, it's that they're so easy. They fit into your lifestyle very easily. Um, and then as far as the vet, I mean, if you're not crazy like me and you don't have nine of them, you know, it's affordable to get insurance, you know? So if you've only got one or two, then you can get insurance to prevent that. But I had a dog recently die at 17. She was only at the vet a couple of times and it was for teeth cleaning. So you just, you know, it's luck of the draw. And that's true with a puppy as well. Yeah. Yeah. Wonderful to talk to you. Thank you so much. We love your Instagram. It's so great. It's so great. Thank you, Steve. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. And all 10 dogs now. 10 dogs. You'll make it to 11. It'll happen. Oh, two of them are 17. So I think we're walking a tightrope right now too. Yeah, I understand. Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you. You bet. Thank you. What do you most want people to, you wish they knew about the inside of a dog? I mean, I want people to let dogs be dogs, realize that they're not little furry humans, right? They're not stuffed. They don't care about being. Dressed up. They don't care about being dressed up except for maybe if they don't love it or if you give them a lot of attention. And, you know, the reason we love them is because they're different than us. And so I think we should celebrate those differences and let them be themselves. Okay. When I first started reading this book, I was fascinated because I've seen people out with their dogs with raincoats. When I lived in Chicago, I had a raincoat and reading this book, I know that's the last thing the dog wanted. Was a raincoat. The only thing interesting about the raincoat is if it means they're being taken out, right? But other than that, right, it's, you know, it feels like someone pressing on their back. They don't need a raincoat. Their body is suited for that. Say that to everybody. We're thinking you're putting the coat on them because it's going to keep them warm or keep them dry or keep them that. And for them, it feels like pressure. For the dog, it's like someone is pressing on their back to have a raincoat on, right? And in wolves, we know that that's done when they're being scolded, maybe. For misbehavior by an adult, an older dog. And so your dog is accepting the raincoat, but no dog is like putting it on themselves. It's really glad to get it off, right? They're glad to get them off and they'll deal with it like they deal with a lot of nonsense from us, right? Dogs put up with a lot and they're flexible and they can. But if we were really interested in what they want, you know, I think we'd look at their behavior instead of just assuming that they're little furry humans. Well, I think when they get to be together, they must say, can you believe what my human did today? She had me dressed up in a Halloween costume and I look ridiculous. Yes. I think that do they also, it seems like as soon as I would give the dogs a bath, they would go find, especially out here, some cow dung to roll in. Yeah. Yeah. They don't want to smell like, you know, your coconut shampoo. They want to smell like where they've been and who they are. And that's actually how they recognize each other, right? They don't want to smell who someone is, a person or another dog by their scent. So they'd rather not be perfumed, right? They'd rather smell like something fantastic. So even if you, obviously we have to bathe our dogs, but if you're going to bathe your dog, you should bathe your dog in a scentless shampoo. I think that would be better. Yeah. And, and just put up with, you know, they're being unshowered once in a while, right? That's okay as well. Because they don't like to get bathed. They don't tend to, right? You know, if your dog is hopping in the vault, if your dog is hopping in the bath, then go for it. Otherwise, I think they would rather not. But we want them to be clean. We want them to be clean coming in the house. Yeah. If they're rolling in cow dung, you have my permission. Cow dung is where it ends. Thank you. Dr. Horowitz's book, Inside of a Dog, is now fully revised and updated and available everywhere books are sold. It's going to change the way you, take your dog on their next walk. A big thank you to the Farmer's Dog for partnering with us on this episode. Their fresh food has been clinically shown to help dogs age well, so you can have more good years together. And as I said, for years, I made all of my dog's food and I ran into somebody from Farmer's Dog and they said, have you tried Farmer's Dog? And I was like, no, never tried that because we make our dog food fresh from scratch. And I can tell you that we put a bowl of, the freshly made food that we had done and the fresh food from Farmer's Dog. And now that's all Sadie's eating. Pretty amazing. Thank you, Dr. Horowitz and Rachel and Marissa for being with us here and Jaime and Steve for joining us today. Inside of a Dog. If you have a dog, you need this book or give it to a friend. It's a great gift for a friend who has a dog. Go well, everybody. You can subscribe to the Oprah podcast on YouTube, and follow us on Spotify, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks everybody.