Does Alberta have its own distinct culture?

I'm Adrienne Arsono, CBC News' Chief Correspondent and your host for When It All Went Wrong. It's an investigative podcast about the people who get hurt when the systems meant to protect us fail. It features original reporting from some of Canada's best journalists. Each series unravels the moment it all went wrong, not by accident, not from poor planning, but because someone chose to do wrong and others chose to do nothing. And then follow When It All Went Wrong, wherever you get your podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Look, Alberta's referendum is a really important conversation for this country. It is happening on Monday, and whether to stay in Canada is one of the questions that Alberta will be voting on. Today, we are getting into the cultural roots of the separation movement and how culture is being deployed to sway voters. I'm El Amin, I'm the Mahmoud, and this is commotion. Alberta's own, Zane Velji and Maryl Buckley are here with us. Hello to both of you. Bawawaw. Hello. It's nice to have you. Listen, I know we are talking about Alberta, but if you guys don't mind, I want to start with this moment from Block of Equal Leader, Francois Blanchett, about a year ago he was asked if the Quebec independence movement had any advice for Alberta separatists, and I just want to play you his answer because his answer was about culture. The first idea is to define oneself as a nation. Therefore, it requires a culture of their own, and I am not certain that oil and gas qualified to define a culture. Those are harsh words. The idea that, he says, I don't think oil and gas qualify as culture. I recognize those are controversial things to say for the leader of the Block of Equal, but I think it's an interesting place for us to start. Merrill, I'm going to put the question to you first of you to mind. You're born and raised Alberta, it's impossible for you to separate the music that you make from the place that you're from. What are the things? What are the ingredients and elements that actually make Alberta culture unique, you think? Yeah, I mean, it's such an interesting question that has been on my mind so much with what's going on, but to be honest with you, I don't typically tend to separate Alberta from prairies very much. When I think of identity as far as a culture, maybe the Premier of Quebec is talking about, I tend to lump the prairies in as a group, I think Western culture and prairie geography. It's a bit beyond the Alberta borders, which is why all of this feels a bit silly to me, but yeah, certainly I don't know that there's aside from a good work ethic, there's obviously a Gregorian, a ton of agricultural work, and you know, boy poetry stuff, there's some deep roots and a humble sort of attitude that comes from people best, but I don't think it's necessarily only to Alberta. I take your point, but the idea that you don't tend to separate Alberta culture from prairie culture, but that's still a sort of a distinct separate thing. You can sort of listen to us on and go, I know this is from here, there's something about that that you can sort of identify as from the prairies. Certainly, yeah, I mean, anyway, for me, and maybe it's because I'm from there, but tends to just be that if that liminal longing or maybe some of the scenery that's painted in there, but it's always very obvious to me, I think, and obviously. I'm going to ask you on this too, listen, you've made no secret of your desire for Alberta to remain in Canada, as a strategy, you've been working specifically towards that, but if you can, if you don't mind, try to just put that aside for a moment, and just for a moment way in from your point of view, it's hard to maybe distill the culture of a whole province of more than five million people, but what's the thing that makes, what's an ostentially a burden culture thing? Yeah, and it's an interesting question, because if you're on the remains side like I am, you also are like, well, this is just an extension of Canada, it's just a regional maybe sort of nuance or difference or pressure point looks slightly different from the prison, but let's try to answer that question, at least from my perspective, born and raised here, you know, I'm a product of a dad who in the 1970s came to Pearson Airport and was told by a customs agent like son, if you want opportunity, go west, he took that as a directive. That's why we're here in Alberta, and like that story really speaks to me about one court aspect of Alberta, which is it's a come as you are, province, right, whoever you are come as you are, it is rarely been a place that I get asked my credentials, right, like which universities you go to, by the way, that's like kind of like the conversation starter in a lot of other Canadian cities, like, hey, where'd you go to school, right? And I often tell people in Toronto that I went to a small school, you know, just outside of Boston, and then their eyes get big, and then I tell them it's called the University of Alberta, and then they don't talk to me, I mean, you know, the power structure aspect here is like, hey, like whatever, if you've got an idea, we're cool with it. Just do it, just be you. And I think underneath that, and this taken to its ends can look very different to people, and I think it kind of does to parts of Canada, is there's a silent quiet ambition, right, like just come here, make your money, do your thing, grow it, make it bigger, and to many people that can look American, hey, that looks, that looks oddly American, in what you guys are up to there. And then I think the final sort of aspect is that we're just so misunderstood, because the oil and gas brush is so big, and that bitumen gets painted over us so aggressively and lathered on everything. You don't realize that it's a province of 5 million people, that's got, that it's cities are just as diverse as our other major cities, that we're like, really funny people. We produce incredible comedic talent, for example. That's one of the other languages I, not that I'm funny, but I know comedy, that we produce comedy talent in this province that is gonna, is world-class Malakala Sal, Henry Sir, our city is gonna be the next big thing, and it's because oil and gas, Western culture, conservatism, America, light gets painted on top of it. We're so misunderstood across all these other spectrums as well. I appreciate this just as a rebuttal to the idea that, hey, oil and gas is not a culture, and then Zayn and Marilyn are like, yeah, you're right, there's so much more to this specific thing that is a sort of an Alberta culture. I do think that like, it's useful for me, because when I think about songs or music, or art that comes out of Alberta that couldn't be made anywhere else in the country, I just want to play you guys just a little bit of a Noel Leigh Hoffman joint. Let's just hear a little bit of Purple Gas. So that's Noel Leigh Hoffman, Zach Bryan, that song, Purple Gas, a gigantic song for Noel Leigh and a gigantic song with Zach Bryan. Marilyn, you know and love Noel Leigh, personally, let's talk a little bit like, why this song is so specifically Albertan, because it is a sort of character study that references a specifically Alberta thing, which is Purple Gas. Do you want to explain a little bit of that context there? Yeah, I mean, I would say that the thing that makes that such a cool song for and for how massive it is, is that it's such a very specific look into a very tiny part of that actual kind of sector that we've talked about. I know Noel Leigh worked some ranches growing up a little bit, and yeah, I think it's just really carries kind of E and Tyson cowboy poetry tradition. I think what's really neat is that that song is a part of this like Alberta song. Because I'm forever now. And I think, again, I would say that it speaks to that hard work, that hard work, and kind of grit that people often with farming and rig culture and all that. Again, I think the prairies has claimed that more than just even southern Alberta, so yeah, what a great song. That also that idea of an Alberta song book, like you mentioned E and Tyson, Noel Leigh is absolutely contributed to this, you have contributed to this, Corb London's contributed to so many particular contributions to that song book. And all those ideas are like, this could only originate here. This could only radiate here, and that's to me, that's the thing that makes a distinct kind of culture. Zane, back to this idea that a province has to have a sort of distinct culture of its own before it can even think about becoming a nation that's separate. I think we've established so far that Alberta has its own kind of distinct culture, but that culture is absolutely contestant, like having a distinct culture might be a precondition for independence. It doesn't mean you have to become independent, right? How are you seeing this sort of culture contested through the prism of independence, you think? It's a really a question of, are we going to be flattened into being a one dimensional thing that a lot of separatists are like, this is Alberta, and what's happening in the nuances and the sprinkling of different sort of things, people that have come here and then added their own DNA to the culture. Let's flatten that out. Let's make it a singular thing. Let's make it this one thing that's easily digestible to the rest of the country. Let's lean back into tropes. Let's get rid of nuance and let's flatten the debate. That's essentially what's happening right now. Like some of those names I mentioned in comedy, I'd say just as much as some of this music could not be made in Alberta as you've highlighted, some of these people are coming out of a counter culture, not directly because they're just trying to sneak out of oil and gas as big sort of brush or like the Western culture's big brush just to be like, hey, we're doing this here too. And we're pushing this rock up a hill, maybe without even that sort of ambition in mind. So I think this fight is really one about who gets to define Alberta. right? Who are the authors? Who carries this pen? And then it is now extending to this broader conversation of even if our flattened one-dimensional perspective of what we thought Alberta was or wanted it to be for the separatists. Can we try to dominate the conversation, even if our position is not popular, simply via having more attention on our position? And that seems to be what's creating this sort of tension right now where the majority of people are against this thing, but one side is just dominating the attention atmosphere. Well, as you can see, like, Marylee, the question is who gets to define Alberta? That definition is so rarely going to be political. It's more than likely going to be cultural. It's more than likely going to be, here's the story of what it means to live in this place. Marylee, what are you noticing about the way that how culture is kind of being contested, leading up to this referendum? I mean, yeah, speaking as someone who operates in, like, a cultural and art space, and, you know, as someone who's also very countertour in the way that I present my work, like, we have, you know, kind of these incredible songwriters, as we were talking about, like, Cole, Nolene and Ian Tyson. And then you have this amazing offshoot of people who grew up listening to that kind of countries, like, but who have gone in a completely different direction, like, Chad Van Gaylen, who's from Calgary, where I'm from, and then, you know, I'm also leaning pretty left of center. Yeah, it's just a really cool, it's really cool to see how people are sort of bumping up against the current popular movement, and, you know, like Henry's a dear friend of mine, as you were talking about, and Henry Sir, and that's a comedian who's just exploded with some really incredible leftist views that has really gotten no traction, which, as you also said, has been incredibly plunging, because I think there's just an incredible amount of content out there for the right, just sort of try and take over the feed, which is too bad. Merrill, that is a great point, and honestly, like, the ways that culture is being used to contest this referendum, we haven't even scratched the surface of that. I want to get into how AI is factoring into all of this, but first, I want to take a quick break. We'll be back in just a moment. Hey, it's Danielle and Calgary, your host of IN3, Canada's number one entertainment news podcast. I've spent more time with Taylor Swift than most other people. We're media pros. We hosted the Variety screening festies, how we has become the hottest factory boy. Said no one but you ever, ever, and insiders who have seen it all, IRL. Oscar's Golden Globes, you name it, we have been there, with access to the biggest talent. Welcome to IN3 Patrick J. Adam. The fun starts in three. You know who's not going to survive this? Dad talk. Oh, new episodes, Mondays and Thursdays. I'm Aluminum Abdul-Mahmoud and this is commotion and I'm here with singer, songwriter, Maryl Buckley and strategist Zayn Velji, and we're talking about Alberta right now. We're talking about the culture that makes a distinct from the rest of Canada, and also the ways of that culture ends up being deployed very specifically to convince Alberta to either stay or to separate. And to that end, I want you to have a listen to this. ♪ The ballots have been cast. The die is set. But Alberta ain't ready to kneel just yet. Zayn, would you do us the honor of describing what it is that exactly we are listening to and how it sort of exemplifies the ways that Alberta separatists are getting their message out. Yeah, that's our national anthem, so I wasn't sure if I wish I'd be standing up and saluting. That is an AI earworm. It is one of many that the separatists have been using. And here's the thing, with content and AI, if you have no embarrassment, you can get exposure. And that seems to be their current strategy, right? Like clipping multiple accounts, deep saturation, exposure, and just let it fly. Push the button, let it fly across multiple accounts, and so that, you know, as much as I'd want to make fun of it and not to throw shade at it per se, it's cringy, short, but it is one of many things. They're taking a lot of shots, a lot of shots across the last several months, trying to get reach on anything. Memes, songs, AI ads, full like 15 minutes skits that they've put online around boomers who stand up for Ken, they're trying everything and anything in the online atmosphere to try to get some saturation, which you've played as just an example of fun. I just should also say, like that song has traveled, right? There's like the, you know, the YouTube video for that has quite a, you know, quite hundreds of thousands of views. And so we, you mentioned the idea that it's like somebody pushed a button and it's created by AI, but also it's got a lot of attention. We know that pro-independence influencers have received eight times as much engagement as a contra from the other side. You said, Zane, that this is essentially a story about algorithms. What, what do you mean by that? That, that attention can get you credibility, even if your position is not popular. That, that we live in a broader culture, like, let me give an example. I'm going to throw some shade for a second. Matt Rife, you familiar with Matt Rife? I mean, the comedian. Yeah. He's not very good at comedy. Okay. So, so, so Matt Rife is not a good comedian. However, Matt Rife is incredible at getting attention. He knows that I have the algorithm, great at crowd work. And if you're really good at social media and are able to get attention, you may gaslight people into thinking, wait, is that good comedy? That's what's happening with separatism right now. There's a bunch of C and D players who are running this movement, but have mastered the ability to get attention. I'd say disproportionately get attention, potentially with other influences, get attention, but get attention. And because we live in this attention economy, I mean, they've now been able to take a position that doesn't really pull well. It still probably won't pull well on Monday. But dominate the conversation. You and I are talking about this on a cultural show right now for a 20% potential, for a 20% issue or 25% issue because they're able to dominate attention. And then what happens is that people start questioning being like, wait, am I the one that's wrong? Do I not know what comedy is? Is Matt Rife actually good? Let me go check it out. Let me be curious for half a second. And I'd say 80% of us would check it out, reject it. But then what ends up happening is that they continue adding another layer of people, meaning like, maybe this is what I like. I'm curious about this. And for them, on Monday, they will lose, but they will also gain separatists out of this process. People who are curious about the movement and are now fans, and they will continue dominating the political conversation, because we live in this attention algorithmic economy. And they are the first to really weaponize that in a real way from a political and cultural sense. Well, to that end, Merrill, if it's an algorithm story, if it's a sort of a story of getting attention, the song that we played is by the AI band, question mark, sovereign steel. The song is called Oberta Culture. There's something about the country music, albeit AI, country music of this particular form that is kind of core to the separatist cultural ethos here, right? Like Mitch Sylvester, who leaves Alberta Prosperity Project, has created this whole playlist of YouTube songs like that one, most of them AI promoting independence. How do you reflect on the idea that like a country sound is core to this movement, you think? Well, unfortunately, I think that it's to be expected, because as we know, country music originated from like the work class and a very low kind of on the totem pole of people in North America. But unfortunately, it always been used as a bit of a way to manipulate people as well, because it came from those roots. And in the same way that the government and the upper one is always trying to pit poor people against each other, that's a lot of the time what country music is doing. And we see a lot of that horrid AI Slop, as you were saying about it being an attention economy, that's how a lot of bad music is reported to people now. That's how it's fed to people. And that's why people accept that songs can sound bad and still invest in them, right? So, unfortunately, it's a very smart tactic to use country music because it's the working man's music. And I think they think of themselves all as pretty hard workers. I spent a not small amount of time going through some of those AI songs. And I think like the thing that was like really surprising to me was the number of views that they rack up. I mean, like we're talking about like comments people in the comments who are who seem to know that the thing that they'll listen to is AI, who seem to not be asking the next question, which is why aren't there real country artists who might be writing these songs for on behalf of this movement? Why is this being created this way? That to me is like the next question that follows from that. Zane, let's talk about the way that the pro unity side or sides are using culture to get their message out and persuade people to vote. Before Jen Arden had lined a pro unity concert back in September, she shared a message that took on a bit of a life of its own. In a moment, you're going to hear Jen's video. But first, here's Dan Bowden, who's a separate his concert creator with his reaction to Jen Arden's message. You were born in Calgary, you grew up in rural Alberta. It's that we all listen to proudly because you were outburton, like I will remember you and insensitive now who's being insensitive. And this is how you talk about us. Jen, what happened? Roll the clip, but I got to tell you, it's pretty disgusting. Feeling good about yourselves? You're an embarrassment to this country. Everything you have everything that you have enjoyed, cherished. And benefited from, comes from being part of one of the greatest countries on the planet. The way you are treating indigenous people, the way you are treating your fellow citizens, your fellow Canadians, you guys are a bunch of creepy little pricks. Okay, you hear that Jen Arden did not really hold back at all. Also a fact check for Dan Borden. Jen Arden did not write. I will remember you. That's Sarah McLaughlin. Jen Arden did write, "Will you remember me?" But I can, I suppose, understand that confusion. I want to ask you, Zane, because obviously there's no confusion where Dan stands on this particular thing, but how effective has the pro unity side been at using culture to get the message out? They have tried to play in the cultural game. Jen also did a live concert for the forever Canadian group, which is one of the several groups trying to push Canada to remain. They haven't hacked it in the attention economy way, as the separatists have. They haven't tried to go algorithmic. They haven't necessarily made those shots. The rules here from a political perspective, I could talk to you about an hour in terms of how complicated those are and how fundamentally it's restricting speech from a lot of people. But they have tried to play. I'd say their biggest cultural boon, Elmine, has been to get the Canadian flag back. The Canadian flag was essentially lost to, like, there's a really interest when we talk about cultural symbols. In this process, we have gotten the Canadian flag back the remains side. Like, now when you see a Canadian flag here in Alberta, it's no longer 2022 convoy vibes. It's this person wants to remain. But we've given up the Alberta flag. So we flatten the debate. You know, like how the separatists have wanted? Like, we, now if I say that I'm a proud Albertan, I stop it there. I could say that eight months ago and you'd be like, yeah, cool. Now that actually is coded, right? Like, that is a coded phrase. I've just made a political statement to you without even recognizing it. So we've given up this Alberta flag from a cultural perspective. We've gotten the Canadian one back. So, you know, there's that and I think that's going to have some some longstanding legs. I'd say that one big criticism I have of the Canadian pro sort of Canada movement is that we have declared that the truths of Canada remain self-evident, that we haven't done a lot in the meaning-making space. We haven't sold Canada back. And we've recognized that one side is trying to sell a new future and it's not viable economically. It's not viable socially, culturally, whatever, but it is change. And the other side has just sold status quote, Canada. It's it's obvious what's amazing about Canada. And I don't think we've done a great job. This has not been a referendum. We're on on Monday night. I'll be like, I feel more Canadian. It'll be like, I'm glad they didn't win. Right. And I think that's that's if that summarizes anything. It's that I don't feel like I've gotten the tools, the instruments, the story, the narrative that makes me feel even stronger in my conviction of being Canadian. I've I've fended off a right. It's not a positive offer. It's sort of a sort of a negation of a negative one. You sort of talk about that. Yeah. And I understand all the limitations they're faced with with look at Tom Sucas ignite. And then she's Stephen Carter. Others all the limitations that they've faced. Sure. But that is one aspect from a culture perspective. I don't feel a positive narrative coming out of this. I feel like I fended something off. But Mara, let me ask you this. I mean, like you are creating this distinctive culture that we are talking about as a singer, talking about that's the work that you do. Like has watching this entire conversation? Has it changed anything about your creative process? Has it made you sort of engage in some questions that maybe you weren't as engaged with before in terms of how you create the work that you create? I would say in general know only because I think before I sort of had said that I've always operated in a counter cultural space. So for me, these are kind of always things that I've bumped up against Kurt Ben Alberto, which has largely been a pretty conservative space. Obviously, we've seen a move from like interest conservatism to whatever is happening now. But the way that I create is for people that feel misunderstood or on the outside of mainstream. So that hasn't and probably if anything, there might even be a bit more of that just because some of the some of the we've been bumping up against as this debate has raged on, has been really alarming. And it's been ashamed to come watch, you know, since the pandemic laughing, talking with my brother the other night, I really miss when we were just laughing and arguing about back. Because there are just so many, there are so many more things now that I feel like I have to hair out once a day. But in terms of my make, you know, it's it's always going to be for people who feel misunderstood or lost in these things, for sure. The idea of thinking back and missing the days of talking about the vaccines, like romantically be like, oh, that was like a nice kind of disagreement to have comparatively. I think that actually like that tells us a lot, that tells us a lot exactly about where we are right now. I really appreciate your time and this entire conversation. You guys has been really wonderful. And we'll check it with you again after this whole thing is done. But I really appreciate you coming on the show today. Thanks a lot for me. Yeah, it's of course. Thanks for having us. So nice to have you here. Merrill Buckley is a singer, songwriter from Alberta. She's based in Nashville now, and Zayn Velljee is a strategist with North Weather in Calgary. That's it for the show today. We will be back tomorrow. And tomorrow, we will talk about this Elizabeth Holmes Nathan field or documentary. The whole show is about it. I can't wait to get into that conversation. It was a really, really wild documentary. See you then. For more CBC podcasts, go to cbc.ca/podcasts.